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Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch)
Username: Mark_lynch

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 212.74.96.200
Posted on Monday, March 16, 2009 - 07:09 pm:   

Feeling sort of pleased with myself. Finished the first draft of the novel I’ve been working on since May 20th of last year.

201,557 words. Over 4,500 paragraphs. More than a million taps on the keyboard. That’s a lot of typing.

Sure, there’s a lot still to be done, and that will take me till the end of the year at least, I’d imagine. But I had more than a bit of the giddy about me much of the day, found myself smiling for no reason other that I’d got my draft out. And little could dent it, not even the creeping insecurity that it could all be a load of dross. I’ve found a little contentment and peace today. And that can be no bad thing.

So anyway, yup. It’s a fantasy novel, and as of now I’m got the working title for it of HEARTSTONES AND HAZEL QUEST. Gonna leave it for about six weeks, as I’ve other things on my calendar I’ve to see to, before setting to at the second draft, but I think there’s some good stuff in it. May change my mind when I read it again, but hey . . .

Yeah. I’m pleased with myself.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 82.20.31.211
Posted on Monday, March 16, 2009 - 07:31 pm:   

Great news, mate! I remember you just starting this one. Congrats!
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Allybird (Allybird)
Username: Allybird

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 79.78.81.114
Posted on Monday, March 16, 2009 - 07:49 pm:   

Well done Mark!
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Mick Curtis (Mick)
Username: Mick

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.159.87.217
Posted on Monday, March 16, 2009 - 07:57 pm:   

Well done Mark...
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Huw (Huw)
Username: Huw

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 218.168.181.215
Posted on Monday, March 16, 2009 - 08:13 pm:   

Good job, Mark!
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Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.96.241.143
Posted on Monday, March 16, 2009 - 08:29 pm:   

Great stuff, Mark. Always a nice feeling to get that first draft down, eh?
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 82.20.31.211
Posted on Monday, March 16, 2009 - 08:39 pm:   

200K in ten months is pretty solid. Especially all on one tale.
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Steve Bacon (Stevebacon)
Username: Stevebacon

Registered: 09-2008
Posted From: 90.211.103.83
Posted on Monday, March 16, 2009 - 08:53 pm:   

Congrats, Mark. Nice one.
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John Llewellyn Probert (John_l_probert)
Username: John_l_probert

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 90.203.130.181
Posted on Monday, March 16, 2009 - 09:36 pm:   

Well done Mark - that's excellent news!
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 91.110.153.12
Posted on Monday, March 16, 2009 - 09:38 pm:   

Well done Mark. Good luck with it.
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Gcw (Gcw)
Username: Gcw

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.151.125.173
Posted on Monday, March 16, 2009 - 10:11 pm:   

I hate to be predictable but....bloody well done Lynchy!

A lot of mixed emotions when a project reaches this sorta stage...Lots of euphoria, when the doubts hit - ride 'em out, it will be good. You know it.

gcw
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Simon Bestwick (Simon_b)
Username: Simon_b

Registered: 10-2008
Posted From: 86.24.165.182
Posted on Monday, March 16, 2009 - 10:41 pm:   

Well done Mark! Have a well-deserved drink on me!
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Mick Curtis (Mick)
Username: Mick

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.159.87.217
Posted on Monday, March 16, 2009 - 11:08 pm:   

Simon's got his wallet out! Quick, drinks all 'round!
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Simon Bestwick (Simon_b)
Username: Simon_b

Registered: 10-2008
Posted From: 86.24.165.182
Posted on Monday, March 16, 2009 - 11:15 pm:   

Oh sh... Form an orderly queue, gents. No shoving.

>>>Books first flight out of the country<<<
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Karim Ghahwagi (Karim)
Username: Karim

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 80.167.124.163
Posted on Tuesday, March 17, 2009 - 12:36 am:   

Congrats-sounds like a big'un!

Just wondering sir, regarding this:
'May change my mind when I read it again, but hey . . .'

Don't you kind of get an impression of that say 50K into the writing or a 100K? I understand one needs to take a step back from the whole project to look at it again with 'fresh' eyes. Was just wondering as it is clearly a massive amount of work. Congrats again on making the first draft!
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Mark West (Mark_west)
Username: Mark_west

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 217.39.177.173
Posted on Tuesday, March 17, 2009 - 03:40 pm:   

Well done, Mark, that's a lot of writing.
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Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 194.176.105.47
Posted on Tuesday, March 17, 2009 - 04:25 pm:   

Does it have leather clad swedish lesbian milkmaids?

with wet celery?
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Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch)
Username: Mark_lynch

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 80.225.218.53
Posted on Tuesday, March 17, 2009 - 07:37 pm:   

>>Don't you kind of get an impression of that say 50K into the writing or a 100K? I understand one needs to take a step back from the whole project to look at it again with 'fresh' eyes. Was just wondering as it is clearly a massive amount of work. Congrats again on making the first draft!

Hi Karim! Ta for the congratulations. And for everyone else who’s kindly offered it.

Uhm, in answer to the above, though: well, yes and no. Thing is, you’re beset by so many fears about the quality of every line you write that it’s hard to judge the whole separately from that angst. Also, I don’t pre-plan. Maybe if I did, I’d have an idea about whether it was all going to come together or not. So finding the story as I go, out of the characters, is an important part of writing for me. And there’s a danger you never do that properly.

Various writers have an outline or at least a loose idea of what’s to come when they set off. James Herbert, for instance, writes what he calls one-liners, snatches of dialogue or a description of a character, that he incorporates into the writing of a novel as he goes along. He says he has a few hundred such lines that sort of shape his books. Robert Holdstock apparently has set-pieces in mind, scenes he works towards, such as big action sequences, and they fit into his books which he loosely writes around them.

The only person I know who’s dumb enough to try write like me is James Lee Burke. He literally starts with a blank piece of paper and nothing and writes a first line. Then a second. And carries on just as blindly, until things emerge and he can shape them. That’s how it is for me, I’m afraid. I wish I were smarter and could do it intellectually, building to a plan. But I do it more like Burke than any other writer. (I’d happily settle for being a tenth as good as him too . . .!) With me I get to a point where I notice a theme or constant recurring image or metaphor [and do stop me if this is all too poncey], see how it’s reflected in the character’s life and follow on from there.

I’ve a theory that you can’t really know the first line of a novel and be sure about it until you’ve written or read the last, so that’s why there’re so many doubts in my mind about it. There’s the horrible quagmire in the middle. The chapters where I’d a thousand knots and only one pair of hands to untie them. The worry that the voice of the prose has slipped, or that its pretentious or rough or flat or frankly an embarrassment. That by having only one Point of View character I should have written in the first person and not the third. That I started in the wrong place. That there’s too much back story. That. That. That. That . . .

But the only way to find out is to grind away, go back to after leaving it awhile, see what can be repaired and smartened up to hide the flaws that will be there that no matter what you do to them will never be fixed and will just have to stay there.


>>Does it have leather clad Swedish lesbian milkmaids? with wet celery?


In my dreams, I’m hoping the book will be taken up by a big publisher and that will be the promotional giveaway. If the book had been a horror and Gray Friar had been publishing it, Gary may have been able to spring for the celery . . . But only from Aldi.
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Mick Curtis (Mick)
Username: Mick

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.159.87.217
Posted on Tuesday, March 17, 2009 - 08:06 pm:   

I've heard he tried to move up to Lidl, but they wouldn't let him in.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 82.20.31.211
Posted on Tuesday, March 17, 2009 - 08:19 pm:   

Class, me. Pure fuckin class, innit.
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 91.110.166.89
Posted on Tuesday, March 17, 2009 - 08:37 pm:   

Alas, the milkmaids have had to take a celery cut.
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Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch)
Username: Mark_lynch

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 212.74.96.200
Posted on Tuesday, March 17, 2009 - 08:56 pm:   

No need to be sour, Joel.
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Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.96.241.143
Posted on Tuesday, March 17, 2009 - 10:57 pm:   

Mark, if it's any consolation I used to experience all the angst you describe above whilst writing at novel length. Then I learned to just write the damn thing and then do all the worrying afterwards.

So i still have all the angst, but the novel gets written quicker. Which in turn creates yet more angst.
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Alansjf (Alansjf)
Username: Alansjf

Registered: 09-2008
Posted From: 94.194.134.45
Posted on Tuesday, March 17, 2009 - 11:49 pm:   

Heck, there are some of use who experience that degree of angst just writing a sentence (this one has taken me 43 attempts - I think I'm happy with it now).

But 200,000 + words - good work that man.
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Karim Ghahwagi (Karim)
Username: Karim

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 80.167.124.163
Posted on Wednesday, March 18, 2009 - 01:01 am:   

Thanks for the answer Mark. The James Lee Burke example is great. It is just kind of bewildering to think about starting an 800 page novel one morning and kind of setting off into the unknown-which also sounds great. I mean if the writer doesn't know whats going to happen next, then you can bet on the reader feeling the same way.

The complete opposite of this would be the so called Snowflake method I think-- this carefully plotted outline where everything is predetermined. You can feel that in some contempoary popular thrillers and they feel dead. On the other hand I'm sure you must have certain scenes you want to get to, as in the examples you wrote above Mark- and then I guess all the surprises happen in between.

And regarding the Swedish milkmaids, my partner- though not quite Swedish, is a 6.2 Scandinavian blond woman and not quite a milkmaid, but I'll sic her on all of you- she has her own viking boat and she has been trained to cross vast distances chewing only leather and drinking ale and she likes celery. She wrestles giant sea serpents... Let that be a warning to the men.
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 75.17.14.132
Posted on Wednesday, March 18, 2009 - 01:49 am:   

Good work, Mark. I know the joy of completion, I've just finished a new script myself. Me, at least for this one, I wasn't really writing it: I was merely transcribing the film as I "saw" it. It was that "easy." In fact, huge swaths of it I wrote in "code": it was all dialogue, written down quickly, as it played out - then, later, I went in and filled in the gaps with the narrative. When the story/movie's playing in you're head that clearly, and you're but a simple transcriber, it's SO much nicer... than those times when you're struggling over every little word....
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 82.20.31.211
Posted on Wednesday, March 18, 2009 - 08:15 am:   

Mark, just thought: you did apply to the Haunted River Internet Busybody Overseeing Eye Corporation as well as the Sean Parker Anti-Online Wanking By Proxy Forum to get offifical permission by both organisations before posting this, didn't you?
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Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch)
Username: Mark_lynch

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 212.74.96.200
Posted on Wednesday, March 18, 2009 - 09:05 am:   

>>Mark, if it's any consolation I used to experience all the angst you describe above whilst writing at novel length. Then I learned to just write the damn thing and then do all the worrying afterwards. So I still have all the angst, but the novel gets written quicker. Which in turn creates yet more angst.

I think a big thing confidence-wise for me, mate, was finishing the first novel thingy I wrote. I knew I could finish this one and get the story out, to one end or another. And the increasing length didn’t bother me – I’ve written longer. It’s just the details, the things I mentioned above. I think it’s good to worry along the way; just not to the point where you cripple yourself and can’t write without second-guessing every second guess you’re already making. I agree with you; get it down as best you can, then try fix things. But don’t be blasé getting to the end.


>>It is just kind of bewildering to think about starting an 800 page novel one morning and kind of setting off into the unknown-which also sounds great.

It’s not for the faint-hearted, believe me! Give you an example of a way to create angst and bewilderment in the idiot taking my approach.

This could be convoluted, so forgive me.

But… Lynchy’s first rule of characterisation: “Everybody wants something.”

I’d say that’s as true of the individual quite minor players as it is of the protagonist. It’s where Dickens excelled, and was probably his greatest strength (and some argue his weakness, as he’d throw in a new character when his plots were going arse over head). But think of all his minor players; they all felt real, despite their numerous ticks and chortling excesses. And that’s cos they all of them, to some degree, wanted something.

In my novel I have a very useful character called Jed Timberly. He’s quite prominent in the book, but I couldn’t figure out why he was doing what he was doing. He was important, but also felt like a get-out-of-jail-free card, cos he moved the plot on and bonded some bits that would have required another 50,000 words to explain otherwise. But what the hell was he doing all this stuff for, seemingly for purely altruistic reasons? I didn’t buy that for a moment. And so I kept banging my head against the wall worrying about it, while getting on with the story, as Zed recommends.

And then a funny thing happened. 120,000 words in, a bunch of the little mysteries about him suddenly explained themselves through another character’s journey, and I understood he’d not been altruistically at all, but had indeed wanted something and wanted it very badly. Suddenly he tied up his own story, whilst fortifying another character’s. I scanned back thinking it probably wouldn’t take much work to drop in hints to this new end I’d figured for him, and sod me, but I’d been doing it already, completely without realising it. Sure, some of it needs tweaking, adding to and in places subtracting, but it was there all along in some weird protean form. Innit strange?


>>I mean if the writer doesn't know what’s going to happen next, then you can bet on the reader feeling the same way.

Ian Rankin, who doesn’t preplan in detail but has a loose idea of scene and setting – hell, mostly Edinburgh, mostly a drunk ex-SAS cop suffering post traumatic stress disorder, investigating a crime while moaning about how terrible life is, aided and abetted by a familiar bunch of characters! – makes the same point. If he doesn’t know what’s going on in his books and is surprised at the solution to the crime, then the reader must be. But Rankin says that, yet admits to doing a big amount of research beforehand, so he must have some idea of what he wants to tackle, if not the minute detail.


>>The complete opposite of this would be the so-called Snowflake method I think-- this carefully plotted outline where everything is predetermined. You can feel that in some contemporary popular thrillers and they feel dead.

Hmm. I know what you mean. But there are great preplanners too. James Ellroy, for instance. Though as someone wryly put it – actually, I think it was Ian Rankin – when he produces a not too great novel it does look like he’s published the detailed synopsis by mistake . . .


>>Me, at least for this one, I wasn't really writing it: I was merely transcribing the film as I "saw" it. It was that "easy." In fact, huge swaths of it I wrote in "code": it was all dialogue, written down quickly, as it played out - then, later, I went in and filled in the gaps with the narrative. When the story/movie's playing in you're head that clearly, and you're but a simple transcriber, it's SO much nicer... than those times when you're struggling over every little word....

Craig, I think it was Somerset Maughm who stopped writing and put his pen away if the words were coming too easily. He said he didn’t trust them! He strictly restricted himself to750 words a day as well, said he wouldn’t exceed that count and would literally stop halfway through a sentence. But, you know, all writers are liars to some extent, and he could have been feeding a myth.

But yes, having finished is a grand feeling. Also, it gives me even more respect for the folk who do it and have been doing it regularly for so long. Ramsey’s high class body of work, for example, is just astonishing to me; even more so in light of what it takes us lesser mortals to scratch a few trashy words together.
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Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch)
Username: Mark_lynch

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 212.74.96.200
Posted on Wednesday, March 18, 2009 - 09:10 am:   

It'd only be wanking if I'd renewed my membership of the Crony Club and there was a chance the book was ever to be published, Gary. But I've let my membership slip...
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Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch)
Username: Mark_lynch

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 212.74.96.200
Posted on Wednesday, March 18, 2009 - 09:10 am:   

Oops. I did let slip some admiration for Ramsey above though . . .
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 82.20.31.211
Posted on Wednesday, March 18, 2009 - 09:24 am:   

>>>He strictly restricted himself to750 words a day as well, said he wouldn’t exceed that count and would literally stop halfway through a sentence. But, you know, all writers are liars to some extent, and he could have been feeding a myth.

Well, pre-MS Word, he'd have to have been counting as he went along: surely corrosive to the literary flow.

Seriously, I think something happens once you've written enough. You stop looking at the fiction from the outside and start occupying it from the inside. One sentence dictates another. It's like hitting a slightly misshapen tennis ball against a wall with a racket. Writing a line is the first stroke, and you can't entirely predict how the thing will come back at you until it's done, just like the misshapen ball might take an odd bounce. But it comes back and you must deal with it. Then you strike again, write another new line. And that one is related to the previous one by virtue of its bounce. And so on and so on. You're in the game. It's making the first stroke that's the hardest, but once you're involved it's harder to stop. The bounce prompts certain ways of responding to it. You try to control it without ever being able to predict it. And at the end of the session you either miss your stroke through tiredness or think (Maugham-like) "That's enough." Then you take your ball and racket home ready for the next go. It's addictive.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 82.20.31.211
Posted on Wednesday, March 18, 2009 - 10:13 am:   

>>>But… Lynchy’s first rule of characterisation: “Everybody wants something.”

Yeah, I read a book years ago that said the key to good character creation was to have each of them trying to achieve something proactively. Passiveness was beyond the pale. (Or beyond the pail if those milkmaids are reading.)
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Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 213.219.8.243
Posted on Wednesday, March 18, 2009 - 10:46 am:   

Whatever a book on writing might tell you, characters act exactly how they want to act. If they have a life beyond the page, they'll act real; if not, they won't.

Think about real life, not what someone wrote in a writing aid.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 82.20.31.211
Posted on Wednesday, March 18, 2009 - 11:04 am:   

Only a madman would slavishly adhere to a rule. In fact it would almost impoosible to write anything that way. But the rule of proaction is a good one if you want to make your characters interesting enough to sustain a narrative, even if they ultimately fail in their quest. Nobody wants to spend time with losers - losers in the sense that they just let it all happen to em.
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Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 212.121.214.11
Posted on Wednesday, March 18, 2009 - 03:09 pm:   

Impoosible? is that a new word for constipated?
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Karim Ghahwagi (Karim)
Username: Karim

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 80.167.124.163
Posted on Wednesday, March 18, 2009 - 03:13 pm:   

Unless they're part of the Loser's Club Gary. I can see how using motivation to propel the characters forwards as a sensible method Mark. And I can also imagine that characters appear dead if you don't let them live out their own motivations. You can feel that in King novels- characters deciding to do stuff that the narrative then has to deal with- which is great.
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Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch)
Username: Mark_lynch

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 212.74.96.200
Posted on Wednesday, March 18, 2009 - 07:04 pm:   

Funny you should mention Vikings earlier, Karim. A good portion of my book’s set in the Lake District here in the UK, where the favoured sheep of the sheep farmers farming the high fells tends to the Herdwick breed, which is said to have been introduced to the UK by Vikings. The Herdwick has been known to survive for months at a time buried under snow, feeding off oily nutrients on its fur.

Quite why I’ve knowledge of sheep’s oily lubrication is not pertinent to the rest of the conversation . . .
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 82.20.31.211
Posted on Wednesday, March 18, 2009 - 07:17 pm:   

Research on Ewe-Tube?
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Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.96.241.143
Posted on Wednesday, March 18, 2009 - 07:51 pm:   

Google, methinks. That's where I do all my research, too. Unless its about guns; then I ask Bestwick.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 82.20.31.211
Posted on Wednesday, March 18, 2009 - 07:54 pm:   

Google: nature's only answer to existential peril.
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Karim Ghahwagi (Karim)
Username: Karim

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 80.167.124.163
Posted on Wednesday, March 18, 2009 - 08:19 pm:   

Hej it was Weber who brought up the leather clad lesbian vikings Mark! And Joel peppered them with celery.
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Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch)
Username: Mark_lynch

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 212.74.96.200
Posted on Thursday, March 19, 2009 - 07:07 pm:   

oops. Sorry, Karim.

And no, Zed, I didn't use Google. Actually, I'm a divvy. It never entered my head to. I went to the library, took some Wainwright Guides out and a biography of Lakeland writers, such as Beatrix Potter. . . . Gonna try get up there to do some on-site research now the tale's down. Better to get the tale down and make the facts fit after, so they don't skew the tale.
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Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 149.254.217.14
Posted on Thursday, March 19, 2009 - 10:57 pm:   

Hey, I didn't say vikings, I said Swedish, and milkmaids. I also introduced the celery (wet).

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