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Karim Ghahwagi (Karim)
Username: Karim

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 80.163.6.13
Posted on Wednesday, July 15, 2009 - 01:36 am:   

This might be a slightly weird question. I know there are a number of editors here, maybe they could be kind to help out with their thoughts.

If a written piece is supposed to have a 6000 word limit, and an accompanying quotation alone brings the word count above the limit- would this disqualify it as being over the limit then? Lets say for example that the text is 5995 words, and the quotation that accompanies the story brings it up to 6020 words, including the source of the quotation. Sorry for the weird question- but how does that work, considering strict word counts etc? Aesthetically it's part of the piece, but not part of the body of the text itself.
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Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch)
Username: Mark_lynch

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 217.171.129.68
Posted on Wednesday, July 15, 2009 - 01:43 am:   

I ain't no editor, but I'd say if it's anything after the author's byline then it counts.
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Simon Strantzas (Nomis)
Username: Nomis

Registered: 09-2008
Posted From: 99.227.90.149
Posted on Wednesday, July 15, 2009 - 01:56 am:   

From experience, some editors use the limit as a guideline, some strictly enforce it. Your best bet is to query. It's always better to ask first than assume: the last thing you want to do is give the editor a chance to dismiss your piece. Not following the guidelines is the easiest reason for them to avoid the work of reading an extra piece.
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Karim Ghahwagi (Karim)
Username: Karim

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 80.163.6.13
Posted on Wednesday, July 15, 2009 - 02:09 am:   

Merci- I was asked this question, and didn't have a clue. Thanks for your comments which I'll pass on.
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Barbara Roden (Nebuly)
Username: Nebuly

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 142.179.24.243
Posted on Wednesday, July 15, 2009 - 02:11 am:   

Any writer worth his or her salt will be upfront about the word count (if the GLs state 6000 words, and your story is 6020, you'll say that, not fudge and say 'It's around 6000 words.'). And in a 6020 word story, I'm sure you can find 20 that don't need to be there. Contractions are your friend.

Any editor who uses being 'over the word count' as an excuse for not reading a story is within his or her rights. Aggrieved writers: READ THE F***ING GUIDELINES. HOWEVER, depending on the circumstances, an editor should at least consider any story that comes in that looks promising. Word counts are rarely set in stone; an editor who passes on a brilliant story because it's 100 words over what the GLs specify is an idiot.

As far as quotes go: the total word count of the story, including quotations, is the word count. It may not be yours, but it's part of your story. So it counts.
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Karim Ghahwagi (Karim)
Username: Karim

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 80.163.6.13
Posted on Wednesday, July 15, 2009 - 03:24 am:   

The above three paragraphs will be chiselled in stone Barbara. I will except orders from others who want to hang it next to their typwriters, computers, pens, quills (or other). I will ship internationally. Stone plates personalized upon request.
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Steve Bacon (Stevebacon)
Username: Stevebacon

Registered: 09-2008
Posted From: 90.210.209.176
Posted on Wednesday, July 15, 2009 - 09:35 pm:   

Also, to what degree is is acceptable to round up (or down) word counts? I assume that depends on the length, but is there a percentage, or is it down to discretion?

Or is it better to be exact?
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Simon Strantzas (Nomis)
Username: Nomis

Registered: 09-2008
Posted From: 99.227.90.149
Posted on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 03:07 am:   

Here's a quote from the reference I use:

"In the upper-right corner of the first page of your manuscript, you should place an approximate word count. If your manuscript is between one and 1,500 words long, round your word count to the nearest 100 words. For manuscripts of between 1,500 and 10,000 words, round to the nearest 500. For 10,000 to 25,000 words, round to the nearest 1,000. For 25,000 or more words, round to the nearest 5,000. "
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Simon Strantzas (Nomis)
Username: Nomis

Registered: 09-2008
Posted From: 99.227.90.149
Posted on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 03:09 am:   

Also (but in fairness I don't know how applicable this in the modern age)...

"You do not calculate the wordage of your story by counting actual words. Figure out the maximum number of characters per line in your manuscript, divide this number by six, and then multiply by the total number of lines in your story. This gives you the word count. Round from there. Editors, you see, are not interested in how many actual words there are in your manuscript. They are interested in how much space it will take up in a magazine or book, and this method gives them a more accurate estimate of that than the actual number of words would."
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 91.110.172.217
Posted on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 08:58 am:   

Simon, both of the quotes you provide strike me (and probably strike you) as rubbish. The word count is the number of words, i.e. the number of words. Rounding up or down to the nearest 50 is normal, but rounding to the nearest 1000 is really pushing it and rounding a novel to the nearest 5000 is just stupid. If payment relates to word count, either formally or implicitly, then the editor needs to know the word count. The word count does not depend on how long your words or sentences are or how many short paragraphs you have. The editor can see that on the page.
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Stu (Stu)
Username: Stu

Registered: 04-2008
Posted From: 86.29.183.148
Posted on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 09:20 am:   

I've seen similar guidelines to the ones Simon mentioned and wondered how seriously writers are supposed to take them. Particularly in these days of computers giving exact word counts.

I'm also confused about what editors want when they want maunscripts in a standard format. Over the years I've been shown at least three contradictory versions of what counts as "standard".

My current bugbear is the thing about leaving an extra space after fullstops. Now that I've got into the habit to such an extent that I automatically add a space even when I'm typing things other than maunuscripts I've been told that this practice is no longer in use. Anyone know anything about this?
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.26.61.140
Posted on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 09:45 am:   

I've never really understood all this extra-double-space / don't-indent-paragraphs kind of editorial demand. As long as the MS is spellchecked and in a decent order, why request a load of changes that, upon acceptance, the ed will have to manually switch back anyway? Unless it's to put off a landslide of submissions from folk who can't be bothered to read guidelines.

As for word count, well, is it really an issue in these days of predominantly electronic subs? All it takes is a click of the Word Count function to settle the issue.

Always been puzzled by that put-underlines-outside-the-words-to-be-italicised, too. Is that residue from paper forms of submission?
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Simon Strantzas (Nomis)
Username: Nomis

Registered: 09-2008
Posted From: 99.227.90.149
Posted on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 10:48 am:   

The reason for the underlines, Gary, is to make it easier for the person doing layouts to see the spots where the text is to be changed. It's likely a residue from the "paper days", true, but still I'd rather be sure that what I want italicised gets italicised.

Extra stop after the period is for the same reason; it's there so the proof-reader and the layout person know where the sentence ends. It's for clarity, especially as a simple point/period (or lack thereof) may not be instantly noticeable.

While we're at it, the use of a monospaced font like Courier is requested for similar reasons: it's easier to see spelling mistakes in text with a monospaced font.

Oh and I've already seen myself the issues with people who decide to indent their paragraphs. The problem is people don't spend the two minutes it takes to learn how to do so properly. The number of times I've seen spaces/tabs used instead of setting up the ruler properly makes me insane. The amount of work it requires to fix ... were I an editor, I'd rather not accept the work than bother.

I can understand that actual vs apparent word-count differ. 1000 four-letter words take up less space on the page than do 1000 eight-letter words, and if you're writing something that must fill a specific space only -- like two columns of a newspaper or pages of a magazine -- then actual word-count actually punishes you for using large words, or over-rewards you for using short. That's why there's a calculation; to make it fair.

How many of these really apply to today's electronic world and aren't just relics from the past? Probably very few, I'll grant you, but other than the extra stop (which I think even most sticklers have accepted isn't required) I think they serve their purpose. I still underline and use Courier and double-space. All these things can be changed by the layout artist in seconds, but help the person reading the MS to do so. Plus, I suspect the bigger the venue, the most interest there is in seeing things done that way because "that's the way they're done".

But I don't use the calculation for word count. I'm too lazy. And nobody cares. That's the problem with the world today: about too many things, nobody cares.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.26.61.140
Posted on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 10:53 am:   

I see. All fair reasons, I guess. Now you mention it, I have had some indents to fix.
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Stu (Stu)
Username: Stu

Registered: 04-2008
Posted From: 86.29.183.148
Posted on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 11:00 am:   

Simon, some editors use the guidelines you just mentioned some don't. That's what pisses me off about this whole "standard" manuscript format thing. Everyone* has their own version of "standard" format but they don't bother to tell potential contributors what it is.

*Well, probably not everyone but enough to totally confuse the issue.
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Allybird (Allybird)
Username: Allybird

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 79.70.118.211
Posted on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 11:03 am:   

'Word counts are rarely set in stone; an editor who passes on a brilliant story because it's 100 words over what the GLs specify is an idiot.'

I'd agree with that. If the story is good then the editor would be daft not to. I have also seen guidelines that smack of pomposity, pages of guidelines, that make me wonder - why doesn't the editor just stick their own stories in it and be done with it all.
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Stu (Stu)
Username: Stu

Registered: 04-2008
Posted From: 86.29.183.148
Posted on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 11:13 am:   

Ally, yeah, that is the other sisde of the coin. When editors just make up guidelines for the sake of it -- "And the story must be printed quadruple spaced in hieroglyphics on the flayed skin of the 1967 World Hula Hoop champion."

I wouldn't have minded so much but after all that they rejected the story ...
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Allybird (Allybird)
Username: Allybird

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 79.70.118.211
Posted on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 11:16 am:   

That last remark of mine was a reference to a couple of American magazines both of which lasted about six months and were established to promote the editor's own work rather than actually taking the submissions seriously. Although it looked that way.
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Allybird (Allybird)
Username: Allybird

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 79.70.118.211
Posted on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 11:22 am:   

Crossed posts there Stu....

'Ally, yeah, that is the other side of the coin. When editors just make up guidelines for the sake of it -- "And the story must be printed quadruple spaced in hieroglyphics on the flayed skin of the 1967 World Hula Hoop champion.'

That made me smile, Stu. And you would get the advice, if you should ever be rash enough to write back - to the editor of three month's experience -how dare you suggest making the guidelines simpler :>)
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.26.61.140
Posted on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 11:31 am:   

Maybe all us writers should club together and establish some guidelines for editors to follow when submitting their submission guidelines to us.

(Irony. Irony. Yeah?)
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Karim Ghahwagi (Karim)
Username: Karim

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 80.163.6.13
Posted on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 02:01 pm:   

Since we're on a roll here, I was wondering if someone might help me with the proper usage of which/that. I keep mixing up their proper usage. This is my own question this time. Could anyone kindly provide a simple, clear explanation of this?
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Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 194.176.105.47
Posted on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 02:13 pm:   

Which is used when talking about old women who fly about on broomsticks with a black cat wearing big black conical hats and casting evil spells to turn all good people into newts.

That means that thing over there
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.27.129.86
Posted on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 02:22 pm:   

>>>Could anyone kindly provide a simple, clear explanation of this?

That just isn't possible. Which is a shame.
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Laird Barron (Laird)
Username: Laird

Registered: 05-2008
Posted From: 71.212.78.207
Posted on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 02:39 pm:   

As Barbara has demonstrated, some editors are strict regarding guidelines, as is their perogative. I've never been rejected for submitting a piece that exceeds the guidelines by a couple of hundred words. Many of my stories have exceeded word count guidelines by a much more significant margin. If the editor likes a story, he or she will buy it and request a trimming if space presents a problem. That said, I'd suggest not tempting fate and to be honest if you do. Certainly don't exceed a word count if the editor emphasizes that rule.

As Joel says, round to fifty or a hundred words depending on length. I've never considered anything else, although there may be an editor somewhere who specifies a particular formula.

I use the word processor word count. No complaints from an editor to this point (ten years publishing).

I don't use extra spaces, nor a particular font, unless specified by guidelines. Ellen Datlow wants Times New Roman, for example. On the other hand, I always submit manuscripts to my agent in Tahoma (and my NS collection was done in Tahoma) and have yet to receive a rebuke.
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Laird Barron (Laird)
Username: Laird

Registered: 05-2008
Posted From: 71.212.78.207
Posted on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 02:43 pm:   

There a number of sites explaining every grammar rule under the sun, and some subterranean examples as well.
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Laird Barron (Laird)
Username: Laird

Registered: 05-2008
Posted From: 71.212.78.207
Posted on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 02:46 pm:   

sorry, Joel -- I now realize you said nothing about rounding to nearest hundred.
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Hubert (Hubert)
Username: Hubert

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 78.21.23.93
Posted on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 03:05 pm:   

I always stick to Times New Roman 12.0 because that seems to be a world-wide norm of some kind, and regularly check word count to see if I meet my daily quotum. When a piece exceeds the prescribed length (which seldom happens) I tell the editor. It stands to reason that if a 500-word contribution is required you cannot come up with 650 words, although 520 may be acceptable. No complaints so far.
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Karim Ghahwagi (Karim)
Username: Karim

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 80.163.6.13
Posted on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 03:41 pm:   

Laird: There a number of sites explaining every grammar rule under the sun, and some subterranean examples as well.'

Yes sir, I still keep mixing them up
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Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 194.176.105.47
Posted on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 03:48 pm:   

There are worse words to mix up. If you were to mix "Hi gran, how are you?" with "Hi Sexy, how about a quickie?" it could lead to catastrophic social implications.
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Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 194.176.105.47
Posted on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 03:59 pm:   

Mixing the whole sentence isn't necessary for social embarassment. The words Granny and Sexy if mixed in any context could cause slight issues for your love/family life
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 217.37.199.45
Posted on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 04:23 pm:   

Laird, I would give a novel length to the nearest 100 words, anything shorter to the nearest 50 unless the story were less than 1000 words.
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 217.37.199.45
Posted on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 04:26 pm:   

Times New Roman is the Primula cheese spread of fonts. I like Palatino. Why shouldn't a manuscript look nice?
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Laird Barron (Laird)
Username: Laird

Registered: 05-2008
Posted From: 71.212.78.207
Posted on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 04:40 pm:   

Thanks, Joel. ;)
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Allybird (Allybird)
Username: Allybird

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 79.70.118.211
Posted on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 05:00 pm:   

Palatino does it for me too.
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Hubert (Hubert)
Username: Hubert

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 78.21.23.93
Posted on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 05:18 pm:   

I'll try it
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Simon Strantzas (Nomis)
Username: Nomis

Registered: 09-2008
Posted From: 38.113.181.169
Posted on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 06:45 pm:   

I'll stick with Courier, thank you. Plain, easy to read and proof Courier. I like the look of a ms that looks like a ms.

And Stu's right: there are countless permutations about guidelines. That said, I think there's still only one "official" set, though who voted them into being is another question. Nowadays, I think most editors are ignorant of them and of why they exist in the first place.

But, as always, the rule is whatever your experience tells you. If you don't find editors who care about the font, why should care about the font? I just assume that editors who are versed in that "official" rule (regardless of how arbitrary) are more likely to discount a piece than those who aren't, so I play it safe.

The difference between "which" and "that" is a tough one for me. From what I understand, British English isn't as concerned with it any longer. To the best of my knowledge, it can be summarised like this:

"which" is used when referencing something specific. "The glove, which is on the table, is made of leather."

"that" is used to differentiate one from many. "The glove that is made of leather is on the table and the rest are on the floor."

Most of the time, the difference is easy: "which" goes inside the commas, "that" goes without commas altogether. There are times though where "which" is used without commas too, and that's when it gets difficult. And sometimes the meaning of a sentence changes so imperceptibly that you can use either.

Fun stuff!
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.27.129.86
Posted on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 06:59 pm:   

So what you're saying, Simon, is that when I'm referring to brain cells, I personally need to use 'which' and not 'that', yeah?
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Laird Barron (Laird)
Username: Laird

Registered: 05-2008
Posted From: 71.212.78.207
Posted on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 08:19 pm:   

Simon:

You are correct about playing it safe. I think part of the deal is that I've worked with a growing circle of editors and publishers who are pretty flexible about the little details.

I hate Courier because it takes a lot more paper. But, yeah. You do what you gotta do.
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Stu (Stu)
Username: Stu

Registered: 04-2008
Posted From: 86.29.179.9
Posted on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 08:36 pm:   

Courier's easier to proof but uses more paper while Times New Roman looks more like how the story will appear if published and is the font that my word processor is already set to. So sometimes I use Courier in submissions,sometimes I use Times New Roman. No complaints so far either way. (The editors usually save the complaints for the contents of my stories rather than the format.)

Simon, what are these "official" format guidleines. As I stated earlier I've been told several different versions by reliable sources and have used them all at various pionts. Again with no complaints from editors.
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Michael_kelly (Michael_kelly)
Username: Michael_kelly

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 74.14.14.57
Posted on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 10:27 pm:   

Stu,

I always adhere to these guidelines:

http://www.shunn.net/format/story.html
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Michael_kelly (Michael_kelly)
Username: Michael_kelly

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 74.14.14.57
Posted on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 10:34 pm:   

Oh, and the one thing that isn't mentioned in those guidelines, and is important, is to always write END, well, at the end.
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Simon Strantzas (Nomis)
Username: Nomis

Registered: 09-2008
Posted From: 99.227.90.149
Posted on Friday, July 17, 2009 - 12:12 am:   

Actually, Mike, it IS mention in those guidelines (and they are the ones I use myself) and they contradict you:

"Do not place "#" or "30" or "The End" or anything of the sort at the end of the story. The exception comes when the last line of your story falls close to the bottom of the page. In this case, you may wish to write the word "end" by hand in blue ink in the bottom margin."

In fairness, though, I must admit I do italisise words. I still underline them, as suggested, but also add the italics because I like actually seeing them in the work.
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Simon Strantzas (Nomis)
Username: Nomis

Registered: 09-2008
Posted From: 99.227.90.149
Posted on Friday, July 17, 2009 - 12:14 am:   

Stu, the Shunn essay Mike links to is the one I've seen passed around a number of times as the de facto standard for this sort of thing.

Again, if contradicting them is working out fine for you then who am I to argue? Laird seems to be doing fine not following them to the letter, after all.
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Laird Barron (Laird)
Username: Laird

Registered: 05-2008
Posted From: 71.212.78.207
Posted on Friday, July 17, 2009 - 12:30 am:   

Ha! The last story in my new collection is called "--30--"

I always type THE END. I'm a rogue element. Pay no attention.
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Michael_kelly (Michael_kelly)
Username: Michael_kelly

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 70.31.37.90
Posted on Friday, July 17, 2009 - 12:40 am:   

Simon, right, yes, he does mention to NOT put anything at the end, which, I think, is nonsense.
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Karim Ghahwagi (Karim)
Username: Karim

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 80.163.6.13
Posted on Friday, July 17, 2009 - 01:14 am:   

Thanks for the note on 'that/which' Simon. Maybe because British English isn't so concerned with it any longer, as you write, adds to the difficulty. Thanks very much for a useful clarification. Who needs graduate school when you can go on the board.
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Simon Strantzas (Nomis)
Username: Nomis

Registered: 09-2008
Posted From: 99.227.90.149
Posted on Friday, July 17, 2009 - 01:19 am:   

You're welcome, Karim. It still trips me up, so I tend to just go by instinct and pray for the best. No one complains, but I doubt most editors nowadays know the difference either.

As for writing "the end"... it strikes me as silly to do so. If the reader can't tell they've reached the end, chances are you've done something wrong. To each his or her own, though.
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Laird Barron (Laird)
Username: Laird

Registered: 05-2008
Posted From: 71.212.78.207
Posted on Friday, July 17, 2009 - 01:39 am:   

"If the reader can't tell they've reached the end, chances are you've done something wrong."

I cannot agree that it's silly or wrong. I edited poetry and some short fiction for an online mag. I very much appreciated The End on stories.
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Laird Barron (Laird)
Username: Laird

Registered: 05-2008
Posted From: 71.212.78.207
Posted on Friday, July 17, 2009 - 01:45 am:   

Are you calling me silly, Strantzas?
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Michael_kelly (Michael_kelly)
Username: Michael_kelly

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 70.31.37.90
Posted on Friday, July 17, 2009 - 02:26 am:   

Yes, when you've waded through as much slush as I have, you appreciate seeing "END." Mind you, I often didn't get that far. You'd not believe how many times I actually did wonder Simon if, indeed, I was at the end. Call it silly if you like, but I don't agree that endings are always readily apparent to readers or editors. To each his own, as you say.
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Simon Strantzas (Nomis)
Username: Nomis

Registered: 09-2008
Posted From: 99.227.90.149
Posted on Friday, July 17, 2009 - 03:14 am:   

Laird: Yes. And I can speak to you like that because you're miles and miles away and can't get me. Ha ha!

Mike: fair enough.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.27.129.86
Posted on Friday, July 17, 2009 - 08:36 am:   

Well, personally I know I'm at the end by the fact that there's no more paper/the e-document is finished. Maybe such acute observations come with experience, however. :-)
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Stu (Stu)
Username: Stu

Registered: 04-2008
Posted From: 86.29.188.106
Posted on Friday, July 17, 2009 - 09:57 am:   

Mike, cheers for the link to the guidelines. They're roughly the same as what I use but there were a couple of points that I'd forgotten since the last time I read up on manuscript formats.
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Laird Barron (Laird)
Username: Laird

Registered: 05-2008
Posted From: 71.212.56.15
Posted on Thursday, July 23, 2009 - 12:44 pm:   

"Laird: Yes. And I can speak to you like that because you're miles and miles away and can't get me. Ha ha!"

*shakes fist/roars at the gods*

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