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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 06-2008
Posted From: 86.145.39.3
Posted on Saturday, October 17, 2009 - 09:43 am:   

This theory of the Hadron Collider sabtotaging itself from he future seems to have legs. With some serious scientific backing. It's all over the place if you would like to google the subject. What do you think about it generally?

I genuinely believe that a case can be made for the 'Cern Zoo' book (published June) to be part of this process. (Laughable or not, it may be good publicity or it may actually be true!).

The book's initial introductory prose, for example, plays with this time conundrum and the front cover is perhaps symbolic of the future coming back to nobble the present. I shall be going through all the stories for similar direct and subtle connections (however tenuous).

Meanwhile, if any of you have read it, could you please let me know your own observations (however potentially silly) in connection with this theory etc.
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 78.152.212.40
Posted on Saturday, October 17, 2009 - 09:55 am:   

The spearhead of physics is more bonkers than anyone could have imagined, but why shouldn't it be? I'm amazed that a couple of pounds of jelly in a skull designed for procreation and hunting can understand any fraction of the larger universe.

Douglas Adams wrote about a machine that lets us steal energy from the past. It was great until some those bastards from the future started stealing our energy.
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Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch)
Username: Mark_lynch

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 217.171.129.69
Posted on Saturday, October 17, 2009 - 03:36 pm:   

It's an interesting notion, suggesting a sort of 'firewall' built into the universe, preventing time travell paradoxes.

Of course, in itself, it's a paradox anyway.

Does make you wonder about the practical outcome of dragging one end of a wormhole around for durations of time at near lightspeed to use it as a bridge to the future. Wonder how that'd fix itself?

The universe may well be stranger than we can imagine.

Or a sf reader at CERN has come up with one heck of a whopper to explain away why the machine's not working...
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 78.152.205.70
Posted on Saturday, October 17, 2009 - 07:15 pm:   

Yeah, how would be KNOW that it wasn't a massive scam. They could blind us with Feynman diagrams and Greek letters until we gave up. Oh yeah, peer review.
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 06-2008
Posted From: 86.145.39.3
Posted on Saturday, October 17, 2009 - 07:19 pm:   

This seems scientifically based - a theory that the Collider is sabotaging itself from it own future.

There are a few examples I've found on the Internet where the word 'suicide' is used rather than 'sabotage'.

Is Hadron Collider, even as we speak, committing suicide?
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 78.152.205.70
Posted on Saturday, October 17, 2009 - 07:39 pm:   

Maybe we've made God and he's sorry.
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Carolinec (Carolinec)
Username: Carolinec

Registered: 06-2009
Posted From: 82.38.75.85
Posted on Saturday, October 17, 2009 - 07:44 pm:   

Not entirely related to your question, Des, but it never fails to amaze me that humans in general think so highly of themselves that they believe they could "crack the code", to figure out the meaning of life, the universe and everything.

My own belief, which I've held for many years, is that nature will win in the end (eg. in the case of catastrophic climate change). So if there's some force trying to sabotage this crazy experiment, then I reckon it'll be nature having its way and trying to set things right (things which humans mess up).

By the way, wasn't there a physicist at that establishment arrested recently on terrorist charges?
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 78.152.205.70
Posted on Saturday, October 17, 2009 - 07:48 pm:   

I get all mystical as a defence mechanism for things I don't understand. It makes me look deep when actually I'm just ignorant and pretending to be above those plodding boffins. I'm a physicist and I've no clue what they're doing in Geneva. The only part I'm sure about is the bit about sending nazi gold into the past so Germany can win the war. See? Drifted into flippant web-voice again to pretend my ignorance is okay. I could have spent 30 mins reading about the LHC on the web, but I spent it reading The Ultimate Book of British Comics. I don't know exactly what string theory is, but I now know that MISTY was edited by Pat Mills.
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 78.152.205.70
Posted on Saturday, October 17, 2009 - 07:52 pm:   

"Not entirely related to your question, Des, but it never fails to amaze me that humans in general think so highly of themselves that they believe they could "crack the code", to figure out the meaning of life, the universe and everything."

They really don't, Caroline. Nobody is more realistic about what physics can achieve than physicists. But they're up against diminishing pot of money to get their projects funded and have a tough time communicating what they're doing to an X-Factor society. The work is important.
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Carolinec (Carolinec)
Username: Carolinec

Registered: 06-2009
Posted From: 82.38.75.85
Posted on Saturday, October 17, 2009 - 08:14 pm:   

So you reckon what they're doing there really IS important, Proto? Can you enlighten me, please?

From the news reports, articles, etc, I've seen it looks as much of a complete waste of time, knowledge and money as trying to find out if there's water on the moon so that we can use the moon as a staging post for future space exploration. All a pipe dream as far as I'm concerned, humans thinking too highly of themselves and not able to concentrate on what really IS important (like helping to protect THIS world - the only one we have).
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 78.152.205.70
Posted on Saturday, October 17, 2009 - 09:16 pm:   

Pitching environmental responsibility and scientific exploration against each other is a huge falsehood, Caroline. Both are essential to the survival of our body and spirit.

Check out the real sink for the world's money. This baby is about to hit $1 trillion any day now, and will keep going up for years or decades:

http://costofwar.com/

The final cost of the entire Apollo programme, in 2008 dollars, was approximately $145 billion. Obviously, any future exploration will get progressively cheaper.

Physics is about understanding the physical world. All problems are ultimately problems of physics. That includes the physics of light from these words entering your eyes and the electrochemical physics in your brain that makes you reluctant to agree with them. One of the things the define us as human beings is our efforts to understand reality itself, through storytelling, intuition and science. There are no more frontiers on Earth and I think that our natural energies to explore will curdle into war if bottled up. We need a sense of wonder, somethign to reach for, more than ever. Someone once described space exploration as the moral alternative to war.
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Carolinec (Carolinec)
Username: Carolinec

Registered: 06-2009
Posted From: 82.38.75.85
Posted on Saturday, October 17, 2009 - 09:33 pm:   

I definitely don't disagree with you about the cost of war, Proto - that's another man-made disaster. But when I see more than half the world's population starving, species disappearing at an alarming rate, climate change, etc, etc, I just think there are far better things to spend our man-made money on than space travel, wars, and messing around with particles.

You say physics is about understanding the physical world. Well, that's half the problem in my eyes - humans just don't understand it. They could learn about it by observing nature, studying the environment, plants and animals in their natural habitats, helping to conserve, etc. Only then could they truly say they understand the physical world.

Please don't think I'm having a go and you and your beliefs, Proto. I'm not. I'm just putting mine forward. They're probably a bit old-fashioned, a bit "ageing hippy" (which I am!). This is just another one of those RCMB "let's put the world to rights" discussions.
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 89.19.90.89
Posted on Saturday, October 17, 2009 - 10:31 pm:   

"[...]space travel, wars, and messing around with particles. "

You group these things together as if they're the same thing. I'm not clear on what exactly it is that you're against?

I could provide an exhaustive list of the secondary benefits blue skies research brings even to people who couldn't give a monkey's about science. The web itself wouldn't exist were it not for "messing about with particles" in CERN.

"You say physics is about understanding the physical world. Well, that's half the problem in my eyes - humans just don't understand it. They could learn about it by observing nature, studying the environment, plants and animals in their natural habitats, helping to conserve, etc. Only then could they truly say they understand the physical world."

Sorry, you've lost me here...
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 89.19.90.89
Posted on Saturday, October 17, 2009 - 10:33 pm:   

"By the way, wasn't there a physicist at that establishment arrested recently on terrorist charges?"

In the interests of clarification, are you seriously linking science to terrorism here or was this just an aside?
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 89.19.90.89
Posted on Saturday, October 17, 2009 - 10:35 pm:   

Ugh, my posts look all narky - they're not supposed to be! Don't mean to sound like Prof. Yaffle.
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Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch)
Username: Mark_lynch

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 217.171.129.73
Posted on Saturday, October 17, 2009 - 10:35 pm:   

How many TVs do you have in your house, Caroline? How many pairs of shoes? How many clothes?

When there are people in the world starving and without access to clean water, surely it's indefensible for you to have more than the bare minimum to survive, when you realise others are not doing even that.

The money from the space programme wouldn't be spent on safeguarding clean water supplies if it were taken away from the space agencies.

Arthur C Clarke - for tis he again, the smarty pants - said the reason the dinosaurs aren't alive today is because they didn't have a space programme.

Know wharra mean?
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 89.19.80.242
Posted on Sunday, October 18, 2009 - 12:38 am:   

He also said millions of years ago some fish decided to try to climb onto the land. Other fish told them how crazy tney were, how dangerous and pointless when there was plenty to be getting on with in the ocean. They said they would stay in the sea. They did and they're still fish.
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Carolinec (Carolinec)
Username: Carolinec

Registered: 06-2009
Posted From: 82.38.75.85
Posted on Sunday, October 18, 2009 - 12:47 pm:   

>>"By the way, wasn't there a physicist at that establishment arrested recently on terrorist charges?"

In the interests of clarification, are you seriously linking science to terrorism here or was this just an aside?<<

That was an aside - the news report said there was no evidence he was intending to do any terrorist activities at Cern. I just found it rather scary that their vetting procedures seemed to have let him through.

OK, I'm on my own in my beliefs, but that's no problem. I've had them for many years - it's not a new thing at all - and you guys certainly aren't going to change my views on the usefulness of spending millions on things like space travel and this particle thing (along with millions on wars), when I feel the money would be better spent dealing with more immediate and pressing problems here and now on earth. I have my belief, you have yours - no problem.

As for how many TVs, clothes, etc, we have - well, I'm no saint. On the other thread where we were talking about global warming I recall Tony explaining all the things he did to help (eg. not driving, etc) and thinking "I'm definitely nowhere near as good as that".

For your info, we have one TV (more than that would be a waste, of course), and the minimum requirements in terms of clothes and shoes (I'm not one of these women who slavishly follows fashion or has a shoe fetish). Unfortunately, we have to have two cars. Hubby and I work in different places, at different times of the day. I teach in the evenings sometimes, public transport is dreadful where we live, and I can't cycle any more due to health problems. Unlike many of my neighbours who jump in their 4 x 4's to go to into the village, I try to walk there when ever possible (need the exercise). We recyle what our council allows, plus take extras (like heavy cardboard) to the tip ourselves for recycling. Basically, we do what we can, even though it may not be enough.

Right, now we've managed to derail Des' thread and taken the discussion off on a different track, maybe we'd better let it get back on course again ...
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 78.152.197.94
Posted on Sunday, October 18, 2009 - 01:04 pm:   

"I feel the money would be better spent dealing with more immediate and pressing problems here and now on earth."

Those problems have never been about there not being enough money in the world. For the last hundred years, there's been enough food for everyone, it's just that the will to share it hasn't been there. Stop the space program and, given the mindset of politians, the money will probably go to the military.
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Carolinec (Carolinec)
Username: Carolinec

Registered: 06-2009
Posted From: 82.38.75.85
Posted on Sunday, October 18, 2009 - 02:49 pm:   

>>"I feel the money would be better spent dealing with more immediate and pressing problems here and now on earth."

Those problems have never been about there not being enough money in the world. For the last hundred years, there's been enough food for everyone, it's just that the will to share it hasn't been there. Stop the space program and, given the mindset of politians, the money will probably go to the military.<<

Oh yes, I agree with you there, Proto. That's my old gripe about the human animal being a very strange and selfish beast.

By the way, just had a thought. I was saying "Let's get Des' thread back on track again" - I was feeling bad about derailing it. But perhaps we are ALL particles hurtling round this collider thingy - I just happen to be going in a different direction to you, Proto!
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.153.150.170
Posted on Sunday, October 18, 2009 - 04:14 pm:   

That fish was probably being greedy all those years ago, too. Or daft.
This is all fascinating stuff btw.
And as Marie just said; fish are handy, too.
I'm so pessimistic. I think man is a mistake, at least for the world. We try and feel nice and good about it and try justifying our existence but really we don't ever feel good, nothing but a kind of long term guilt we try and rub out by having fun, twiddling our thumbs in more and more ornate ways.
Er, I don't want to be pessimistic, btw.
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.153.150.170
Posted on Sunday, October 18, 2009 - 04:15 pm:   

And I don't even feel like that all the time; ask me tomorrow and I'll say there's a god, and that the universe is intelligent and made us etc......
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Carolinec (Carolinec)
Username: Carolinec

Registered: 06-2009
Posted From: 82.38.75.85
Posted on Sunday, October 18, 2009 - 04:41 pm:   

>>I'm so pessimistic. I think man is a mistake, at least for the world. We try and feel nice and good about it and try justifying our existence but really we don't ever feel good, nothing but a kind of long term guilt we try and rub out by having fun, twiddling our thumbs in more and more ornate ways.
Er, I don't want to be pessimistic, btw.<<

Tony, I think you and I are birds of a feather!

Except that I ALWAYS feel like that ...
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.153.150.170
Posted on Sunday, October 18, 2009 - 04:51 pm:   

You see, now I'm feeling bad for possibly offending the fish!
:-(
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Carolinec (Carolinec)
Username: Carolinec

Registered: 06-2009
Posted From: 82.38.75.85
Posted on Sunday, October 18, 2009 - 05:04 pm:   

Don't worry - the fish can take it!
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Stephen Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 82.0.106.15
Posted on Sunday, October 18, 2009 - 11:26 pm:   

The key is to get away from thinking of yourself as a finite individual separated from the rest of reality but instead as an inseparable part of the infinite WHOLE.

After that twiddling your thumbs never felt like so much fun...
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 75.4.229.232
Posted on Monday, October 19, 2009 - 08:33 am:   

Why do I keep reading "Hardon collider sabotaging itself from the future" as the name of this thread?...
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Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 194.176.105.47
Posted on Monday, October 19, 2009 - 03:00 pm:   

I'm guessing it stems from the same reason the 47 women, twelve dogs, three schools and a sheep have all got restraining orders against you.
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 75.4.255.189
Posted on Monday, October 19, 2009 - 04:03 pm:   

That one dog I can explain....
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 06-2008
Posted From: 81.155.107.1
Posted on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 - 11:21 am:   

The Ozymandias Site
A story in CERN ZOO

"Our Five were on the verge of all-out civl war..."

This is a substantial SF story. Well-written. Significant, too. How significant, I'm not sure, as I am not a current expert on modern SF. I would like someone who is an expert to tell me how significant it is. My gut feeling, every single part of me, tells me it is highly significant. And not just because it explicitly mentions Cerne Zoo! It is specially significant in the light of THEORY. The Hadron Collider supposedly in 'civil war' with itself is just one level of consideration - and there are several other levels of this plot relevant. If there is something significant going on between this Book and the Future (CERN-wise), then this story is its ring-leader. A first person plural narrative of a five-way-colour uncollective-conscious in one 'body' is an observation on my part that only scratches the surface of this story and its repercussions or implications. I need others to report in and give their views. And I also wonder if I missed whether we ever know the colour of self?

The above is fully contextualised here:
http://weirdmonger.blog-city.com/cern_zoo__a_dfl_realtime_review.htm
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Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch)
Username: Mark_lynch

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 217.171.129.73
Posted on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 - 12:48 pm:   

And won't open on my phone. Poo.

I'd just like to point out NASA's entire budget is around 1/5th of our Northern Rock bank bailout. Just Northern Rock, none of the others.
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 06-2008
Posted From: 86.171.167.11
Posted on Wednesday, November 18, 2009 - 12:00 am:   

Be very very scared.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/large-hadron-collider/6592961/Large-Hadron-Co llider-ready-to-restart.html
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 78.152.207.237
Posted on Wednesday, November 18, 2009 - 12:25 am:   

Stop the negativity, Des.

Be excited! We're exploring the frontiers of matter itself!
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Hubert (Hubert)
Username: Hubert

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 78.22.228.92
Posted on Wednesday, November 18, 2009 - 12:29 am:   

My thoughts exactly. Recall that before the first atomic bomb was dropped not even the Manhattan Project scientists were sure it wouldn't cause a chain reaction and burn up the atmosphere.
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 75.4.234.115
Posted on Wednesday, November 18, 2009 - 01:38 am:   

Whatever results they come up with, we must believe, right?...

Who's going to double-check them?

At least with Nagasaki/Hiroshima, you could point and say: Results! Tax dollars well spent!

(before the flames start, that's called: gallows humor)
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Alexicon (Alexicon)
Username: Alexicon

Registered: 10-2009
Posted From: 88.106.97.195
Posted on Wednesday, November 18, 2009 - 02:28 am:   

Stap me,Craig! The Nagasaki/Hiroshima quip. That's fireball humour,surely? Dude,stand by for an RCMB nuclear reaction. Got a fall-out shelter near you?

Love it.
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 78.152.213.40
Posted on Wednesday, November 18, 2009 - 03:26 am:   

"[Sickening remark removed]

(before the flames start, that's called: gallows humor)"


It's only gallows humour if you're the one on the gallows.
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 75.4.234.241
Posted on Wednesday, November 18, 2009 - 06:15 am:   

Perhaps "sardonic" then is a better term? It's a riff on Hubert's post, directly above mine.

Still, perhaps you're right, Alexicon... I'd better be going into that shelter now... sometimes they stone you around here if you say something out of line....
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 06-2008
Posted From: 86.171.167.11
Posted on Wednesday, November 18, 2009 - 08:58 am:   

I'm not obsessed with the Hadron Collider, the Hadron Collider is obsessed wih me - ever since I published 'Cern Zoo'.
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Hubert (Hubert)
Username: Hubert

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 78.22.228.92
Posted on Wednesday, November 18, 2009 - 10:31 am:   

No, I can see Craig's point. It's a pity scientific discoveries are always going to be tested in warfare first . . . But the truth about nuclear fission was going to be discovered around that time anyway, no matter what. I for one am glad the Americans got their bomb before the nazis did. [Cue for more sardonic laughter]
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Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 194.176.105.56
Posted on Wednesday, November 18, 2009 - 02:05 pm:   

"I can see Craig's point."

Craig are you cheating on me?
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Alexicon (Alexicon)
Username: Alexicon

Registered: 10-2009
Posted From: 88.106.87.50
Posted on Wednesday, November 18, 2009 - 02:24 pm:   

Craig: '...It's a riff on Hubert's post,directly above mine.'

Hubert out of control again then.Always causing trouble. Strange...when Gary Fry's not around,he's sweetness and light itself. GF returns,Hubert turns lycanthropically contentious. It's a mystery.
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 06-2008
Posted From: 86.171.167.11
Posted on Wednesday, November 18, 2009 - 03:35 pm:   

Large Hadron Collider to ensure Gordon Brown retires undefeated:-

http://newsarse.com/2009/11/18/large-hadron-collider-to-ensure-gordon-brown-reti res-undefeated/
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 75.4.250.11
Posted on Wednesday, November 18, 2009 - 03:54 pm:   

Hubert out of control again then.Always causing trouble. Strange...when Gary Fry's not around,he's sweetness and light itself. GF returns,Hubert turns lycanthropically contentious. It's a mystery.

I just bring out the best in people, Alexicon.... (Weber notwithstanding)
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Alexicon (Alexicon)
Username: Alexicon

Registered: 10-2009
Posted From: 88.106.87.50
Posted on Wednesday, November 18, 2009 - 04:33 pm:   

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Hubert (Hubert)
Username: Hubert

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 78.22.228.92
Posted on Wednesday, November 18, 2009 - 04:41 pm:   

Me, causing trouble? And I don't see GF anywhere on this thread.
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 75.4.250.11
Posted on Wednesday, November 18, 2009 - 04:53 pm:   

I'm not obsessed with the Hadron Collider, the Hadron Collider is obsessed wih me - ever since I published 'Cern Zoo'.

Perhaps this is best left for another thread, Des, but... have you ever wondered if everything in life was directly aimed, there, existing, SOLELY for you? Or in my case - me?

I mean, I'm the only me ever gonna be around. The Universe IS me, as far as I'm concerned. So maybe the entire history of the world - all of it is so much "hologram" illusion, backdrop, set-up, for ME ME ME.

The Bible doesn't speak to me symbolically - it speaks to ME, literally. Every song written, every book, every painting, was all put there so it could entertain ME or explicitly tell ME, here, now, something - again, not symbolically, not extrapolating a meaning that applies to me - a meaning that is for BUT ME ALONE. Not none of you.

Just a little fantasy I have that I can't ever get anyone to share with me....
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 06-2008
Posted From: 86.171.167.11
Posted on Wednesday, November 18, 2009 - 06:01 pm:   

Craig, that's possibly the most important question I've ever been asked. Or you'e ever asked.

Reality as the Me-Theatre.

For the moment, I'll leave others - if there are others out there - if, indeed, there is even someone called Craig out there - to answer
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Carolinec (Carolinec)
Username: Carolinec

Registered: 06-2009
Posted From: 82.38.75.85
Posted on Wednesday, November 18, 2009 - 06:35 pm:   

OK, Craig and Des have thrown down the gauntlet, so I'll start (you don't mind this being a diversion on your Hadron Collider thread, do you Des?) ..

Yes, when I was in my teens I had that feeling a lot. I put it down to all the adolescent/hormonal stuff that was going on at that time - you know, you're kind of trying to make sense of it all at that point, aren't you? Well, I was anyway.

Now, please don't think I'm trying to get at you Craig if you still get those feelings, but I felt I grew out of them when I realised that "I" wasn't the most important person in the world, there were others out there who mattered too.

I can't remember who it is (some psychologist or philosopher?) who suggests that we go through several phases in our lives. One is the phase where we're the centre of the universe as far as we're concerned, but later we start to realise that others are important too - which is when we are able to socialise, etc. Of course, the theory is that some people never get past the "I" stage ...

But it's an interesting thought. After all, we only see things from our own perspective, we perceive the world OUR way, as individuals. OK we're affected by others around us, but basically our worlds really DO revolve around ourselves (and those closest to us like our immediate friends and family).

I got into a discussion like this on the Pantechnicon board a while back and I was teased on there that the whole board might just be set up as a kind of "Big Brother" type show and that everyone was watching me - like "The Truman Show". But it's an interesting premise ... after all, how do we know that any of us here actually exist? Like Des says, is there really a Craig out there? Or perhaps this is all just an elaborate set-up with you at the heart of it, Craig?

I'll finish with the words of a song - from Jethro Tull's "Skating Away On The Thin Ice Of A New Day":

Do you ever get the feeling
That the story's too damn real
And in the present tense?

Or that everybody's on the stage
And you're the only person
Sitting in the audience?
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 75.5.9.135
Posted on Wednesday, November 18, 2009 - 06:50 pm:   

Those are good points, Caroline - of course, I'm just posing a philosophical riddle, but - at the same time, there IS another reality. And that reality is: I AM THE UNIVERSE.

One can fictively play with other "realities" that we know instinctually are not realities. There's that old joke about buying something you'd never have bought normally, but using a coupon that was too enticing to pass up - so you actually saved money by buying the thing. On one level, it's true, you did. But in "reality," you saved nothing. The reality, here, outweighs the clever spinning of facts.

But when you think about this issue in the posed question... the reality that we take at knee-jerk, does NOT outweigh the reality of the fantasy. Again, I AM the Universe. It means nothing to me if a passage from Psalms has meaning to you, Caroline - that might as well be taking place on the most distant star, as far as I'm concerned. If I extrapolate my own meaning, from hearing that a Psalm meant something to you; then YOU and the PSALM have only become more fodder for the ME MACHINE. YOU and the PSALM (let alone the STORY of you and the Psalm) have only ever existed to add to MY LIFE. Explicitly - not symbolically, not metaphorically - YOU and this PSALM are thus INTENDED FOR MY BENEFIT.

Jetrho Tull were on to something....
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Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 194.176.105.56
Posted on Wednesday, November 18, 2009 - 06:56 pm:   

I believe this is known as solipsism
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 06-2008
Posted From: 86.171.167.11
Posted on Wednesday, November 18, 2009 - 07:28 pm:   

Is solipsism aggravated or indulged by the internet?

Are we just one self being aggravated or indulged -- and not only are we faced with the millions of selves who are not us but also with the additional fact that our single so-called self is made up of several selves (a la Proust)?

I find the fair sex can claim to avoid solipsism better than the unfair sex, judging by what each say. Something to grow out of. Or to vanish into like the dot on an ancient TV set when it's switched off.

Thanks, Craig, Caroline and Weber.
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Allybird (Allybird)
Username: Allybird

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 80.47.89.2
Posted on Wednesday, November 18, 2009 - 08:06 pm:   

I really, really, try to just get on with it. I assume nobody notices me - and if they ever do, I'm pleasantly surprised.
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Allybird (Allybird)
Username: Allybird

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 80.47.89.2
Posted on Wednesday, November 18, 2009 - 08:12 pm:   

Having said that I've had one 'solipsistic' moment - that has haunted me for 25 years.
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 06-2008
Posted From: 86.171.167.11
Posted on Thursday, November 19, 2009 - 10:03 am:   

Inspired by above, I've reprintd my old story: "When I Was An Old Man" here: http://weirdmonger.blog-city.com/when_i_was_an_old_man.htm

Allyson, your momentous moment is intriguing. Does everyone have a 'solipsistic' moment in their lives, the only real moment, possibly .... while all other moments are just part of the hyper-realistic 'me-theatre'?
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Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 213.219.8.243
Posted on Thursday, November 19, 2009 - 10:22 am:   

My entire life is one long solipsistic moment.
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Allybird (Allybird)
Username: Allybird

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 80.47.89.2
Posted on Friday, November 20, 2009 - 01:34 pm:   

Hi Des - most of all the experience showed me the power of the imagination.
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Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 194.176.105.56
Posted on Friday, November 20, 2009 - 06:08 pm:   

Isn't there an Arthur C Clarke story on that theme which finishes as the solipsistic patient leaves the psychiatrists office, the psychiatrist looks out of the window and we have the immortal line "One by one the stars were going out"?
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Hubert (Hubert)
Username: Hubert

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 78.22.228.92
Posted on Friday, November 20, 2009 - 06:32 pm:   

I think that's "The Nine Billion Names of God".
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 06-2008
Posted From: 86.171.167.11
Posted on Friday, November 20, 2009 - 07:02 pm:   

A video about the Collider re-starting tomorrow:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/8371388.stm
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 06-2008
Posted From: 86.171.167.11
Posted on Friday, November 20, 2009 - 10:09 pm:   

It's happening now! Follow it on Twitter;
http://twitter.com/cern
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Karim Ghahwagi (Karim)
Username: Karim

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 80.162.59.63
Posted on Saturday, November 21, 2009 - 02:12 am:   

So tomorrow it is...Last time I kept getting text messages from friends who said- 'see- nothing happened.' What a historic moment, even just reading those status tweets, is kind of amazing, as this massive machine is starting up its various parts. Some great photos there as well, of scientists, staring at computers and biting their nails...
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 06-2008
Posted From: 86.171.167.11
Posted on Saturday, November 21, 2009 - 10:34 am:   

Last night CERN turned the crank of the Hadron Collider. In the next days or weeks we shall see, through their spinning smoothly by synchronous chance or clashing with random skewed wings, what they will blow into existence of the Universe’s meaning or meaninglessness. Its demise ... or denemonisation as what? Whether ‘The Inherited Clock’ will bite and snag our curiously poking human finger or will make it new again minute by minute.

I was wondering what is the opposite of ‘collision’. Collusion?

I have long sent my stories around the Weirdmonger Wheel, some in opposite directions to others, others in the same direction as that of yet unwritten ones and head-on towards others never to be written, and vice versa, so as to discover something about ‘a-man-too-mean-to-be-me’ that I call ‘I’. A self-indulgent or solipsistic spin of the roulette wheel, the balls probably ricocheting out into endless space because I spun it too fast.

The world’s single stripe-streamed balustrade of fanblades – flash-forwarded by dint of hindsight into today’s imagined subliminal unison wheeling – is what I call scientifically ‘the last balcony’: a temporal as well as architectural term with many competing meanings of protruding frailty and symbolic strength. Of final welcome or forever’s first farewell.

The immediate bow-wave of far-future’s collision of ‘Never’ with ‘Now’.

The final spellcheck will hopefully alter collision’s first i to u.
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Allybird (Allybird)
Username: Allybird

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 80.47.89.2
Posted on Saturday, November 21, 2009 - 10:58 am:   

Thanks for posting the link to Twitter Cern - Des! - on the other board. Interesting to hear what is going on, by the hour. Had a wonderful conversation with daughter about it all resulting in a groundhog day discussion :>)
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 06-2008
Posted From: 86.171.167.11
Posted on Saturday, November 21, 2009 - 12:06 pm:   

Thanks, Allyson. In my eyes, this event ('seen' live on Twitter) is as significant as man first walking on the moon in 1969 (that I also saw live).

My passage above earlier today is my final Fanblade Fable (of nine such fables). Incredibly, it has only just dawned on me that the fanblades in these fables (spinning or clashing anonymously in the final fable's first paragraph above) are 'inspired' by the windfarm very recently built in the otherwise empty North Sea opposite to where I live.

I am also wondering whether, for any final edit, the above 'hopefully' in the last line should be changed to a more ironical 'thankfully'. But there will be no further edit.

'The Inherited Clock' is a reference to a wonderful short story (probably my favourite ever) - as written by Elizabeth Bowen. Required reading.

For those not aware of Nemonymous, 'denemonisation' above has long been the word used for revealing anonymous authors' identities.
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 06-2008
Posted From: 86.171.167.11
Posted on Monday, November 23, 2009 - 02:04 pm:   

It is now good to see that the re-starting of the Collider's process (after 14 months) has gone so well in the last couple of days*. However, one must not take things for granted. For example, I dreamt last night that an aeroplane flew over the Collider and dropped an elephant upon it.

*Today's tweet from CERN (35 minutes ago): TWO BEAMS ARE CURRENTLY CIRCULATING IN THE LHC!
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 06-2008
Posted From: 86.171.167.11
Posted on Wednesday, November 25, 2009 - 08:40 am:   

Bear mauls man in Bern Park Zoo, Berne ...... Switzerland (home of CERN and the Large Hadron Collider).

Well, can it now get any stranger via a vis Cern Zoo? http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/news/article-1229998/The-horrifying-moment-bear-ma uls-man-climbed-zoo-enclosure.html
(see 'The Lion's Den' story in particular).
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 06-2008
Posted From: 86.171.167.11
Posted on Wednesday, November 25, 2009 - 08:43 am:   

Sorry, that link:


http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/news/article-1229998/The-horrifying-moment-bear-ma uls-man-climbed-zoo-enclosure.html
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 06-2008
Posted From: 86.171.167.210
Posted on Wednesday, November 25, 2009 - 04:55 pm:   

THE DEVOURER OF DREAMS

BERNE'ZOO (see above)
Berne

CERNE'S ZOO
Cern
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 06-2008
Posted From: 86.153.239.224
Posted on Thursday, November 26, 2009 - 08:50 am:   

LHC's Portal to new realities? http://weirdmonger.blog-city.com/lhcs_portal.htm
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 06-2008
Posted From: 86.153.239.188
Posted on Wednesday, December 02, 2009 - 05:10 pm:   

Just in -
This report says the bready-bird bomber has hit the Hadron Collider again!
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/12/02/lhc_power_failure_again/
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 75.5.7.14
Posted on Wednesday, December 02, 2009 - 05:21 pm:   

The Madoff Machine has a supporting role in ANGELS & DEMONS, which I'm only 30 minutes in, as of yet... hmm... what with talk of demons on the other thread, does this count as a coincidence?... and I was eating a sandwich on a French roll as I was watching it last night, too!...
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 06-2008
Posted From: 86.163.170.179
Posted on Thursday, April 01, 2010 - 07:05 pm:   

Man arrested at Large Hadron Collider claims he's from the future
http://crave.cnet.co.uk/gadgets/0,39029552,49305387,00.htm
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Carolinec (Carolinec)
Username: Carolinec

Registered: 06-2009
Posted From: 82.38.75.85
Posted on Thursday, April 01, 2010 - 08:26 pm:   


Actually, didn't I see something the other day about it breaking down again?
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 06-2008
Posted From: 86.163.170.179
Posted on Thursday, April 01, 2010 - 08:29 pm:   

It's been BUZZING like mad in last few days, Caroline. On a roll ... with collisions.
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Carolinec (Carolinec)
Username: Carolinec

Registered: 06-2009
Posted From: 82.38.75.85
Posted on Thursday, April 01, 2010 - 08:55 pm:   

You mean it's working now?! *shock horror*

You'll like this one Des:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/hadron-collider-ii-planned-for-circle- line-1932744.html
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 06-2008
Posted From: 86.163.170.179
Posted on Thursday, April 01, 2010 - 09:24 pm:   

Thanks, Caroline. Enjoyable, but possibly spoilt by a pre-warning that it is a hoax.
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 09-2010
Posted From: 81.131.174.204
Posted on Monday, February 21, 2011 - 09:28 am:   

I see that today that the Large Hadron Collider is re-starting its programme and we sall get this hear the answer to life during this latest period of acttivity (as well as further synchronicity with teh Arab Spring?).
Apparently, not discovering the Higgs Boson particle (ie establishing it doesn't not exist) is as potentially important as actually discovering it during this period!
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 09-2010
Posted From: 81.131.174.204
Posted on Monday, February 21, 2011 - 09:31 am:   

Sorry, as a result of text slippage above and typos I've started a new thread here:
http://www.knibbworld.com/campbelldiscuss/messages/1/4549.html?1298277039
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Weber (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 109.151.145.222
Posted on Friday, November 25, 2011 - 07:51 pm:   

http://crave.cnet.co.uk/gadgets/man-arrested-at-large-hadron-collider-claims-hes -from-the-future-49305387/

Shame about the date this was published first
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 09-2010
Posted From: 81.131.175.213
Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2011 - 08:55 pm:   

Possible first glimpse of 'Higgs Boson' next week:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-16074411
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 09-2010
Posted From: 86.156.32.78
Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2011 - 08:47 am:   

It's Hint of the Higgs day today! Or will it retrocausally destroy the world before the announcement is made?
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 09-2010
Posted From: 86.156.32.78
Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2011 - 03:15 pm:   

Breaking News from CERN ZOO; Yes, the God particle (Higgs Boson) is more likely than unlikely. official
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 09-2010
Posted From: 86.156.32.78
Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2011 - 07:22 pm:   

Apparently, the best analogy is the Big Brother Effect: whereby a celebrity entering a room full of non-celebrities gathers substance to itself (ie attention of those others who gather around it like fans or paperazzi) - and this explains our own structure or substance, the celebrity being the Higgs boson.
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.157.19.204
Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2011 - 07:43 pm:   

But presumably the little bits don't later reject it.
Um - maybe they do. :-(
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 109.79.84.124
Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2011 - 12:16 am:   

It's not a zombie novel or anything, but last week I had a paper accepted to The Astrophysical Journal. We detected the heaviest atom ever discovered in nature (in the cosmic rays). The paper is the culmination of a 30-year-long experiment that involved two shuttle missions (Columbia and Challenger, both lost in action - were we cursed?).

So that's it. My life peaked last Tuesday.
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2011 - 12:26 pm:   

Well done, Proto! I'm sure I couldn't undestand a word of your paper but congratulations are nonetheless in order!!

So was this an atom of some new chemical element?
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 109.79.95.30
Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2011 - 07:47 pm:   

It's Curium (named after Madame and Pierre), which with an atomic mass of 96 is heavier than uranium. Not new as such, but it has a half-life of only 17 million years so there's none left naturally occuring on Earth. They make a total of couple of grams of it in particle accelerators around the world each year, but otherwise it's only found in cosmir rays and is created in supernoave or colliding neutron stars or other very exotic phenomena.

Just my luck to be published in the same week as the Higgs-boson and time travel!
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Carolinec (Carolinec)
Username: Carolinec

Registered: 06-2009
Posted From: 92.232.199.129
Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2011 - 10:41 pm:   

That's brilliant, Proto! I remember how thrilled I was when I got my one and only academic publication in the Journal of Managerial Psychology way back in 1996.
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 09-2010
Posted From: 86.156.32.78
Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2011 - 08:28 am:   

Congratulations, Proto.

PS: Particles or Participles of Speech?
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2011 - 11:37 am:   

Heavy transuranic elements may not be used where there is life... <gulp>

Isn't Curium produced during nuclear explosions, Proto, along with certain other radioactive elements that should long since have disappeared, in their natural state, from the Earth?

Pardon my lay-speak but I've often wondered if there is a theoretical upper limit to the Periodic Table? Bearing in mind that Hydrogen marks the lower limit.
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 217.44.39.151
Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2011 - 11:38 am:   

Proto - at least you have a peak! Some lives just stay in 'unput-up tent' mode. That's fantastic.
Caroline - a belated well done for that, too!
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 147.252.230.148
Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2011 - 01:02 pm:   

Thanks folks!

Steven, the heaviest elements are unstable as the protons and neutrons decay away through radioactivity quicker than you can add neutrons to them. So they're only created in extreme environments where there are LOTS of neutrons whizzing about. It's a bit like snow "sticking" on a pavement. It'll only happen if it snows faster than it thaws. A nuclear explosion would be one such site, as would supernovae.
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 147.252.230.148
Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2011 - 01:08 pm:   

The elements in the periodic table get a lot less stable above uranium, but there is a predicted island of stability for much heavier (and as yet undiscovered) elements.
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 82.29.252.215
Posted on Monday, December 19, 2011 - 12:44 am:   

Thanks, Proto. That's fascinating. One can't help wondering what effect such super heavy conglomerations of energy would have on the fabric of surrounding space and time.
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Weber (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 194.66.23.11
Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2012 - 06:35 pm:   

http://www.dilbert.com/2012-02-21/

I thought this fitted here quite nicely...
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Weber (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 109.155.221.233
Posted on Thursday, February 23, 2012 - 10:22 pm:   

A higgs boson walks into a church. The priest comes across and asks what it's doing there.
It answers "Well, you can't have mass without me."
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Carolinec (Carolinec)
Username: Carolinec

Registered: 06-2009
Posted From: 92.232.199.129
Posted on Friday, February 24, 2012 - 12:25 am:   

That's quite funny! Oh no, I'm finding Weber's jokes funny. Shoot me now, someone .. shoot me now!
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 09-2010
Posted From: 86.130.103.73
Posted on Wednesday, July 04, 2012 - 08:44 am:   

Today is Higgs boson day - finding the dirty Diamond of Cern Zoo.
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 99.126.164.88
Posted on Friday, July 06, 2012 - 06:35 pm:   

Des, here's Higgs-boson, simply and creatively explained: http://vimeo.com/41038445

That doesn't mean I ended up understanding it any better....
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Weber (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 109.145.129.137
Posted on Friday, July 27, 2012 - 12:58 am:   

They think they did so well at Cerne. I've got news for them...

pic
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 09-2010
Posted From: 86.151.109.99
Posted on Friday, July 27, 2012 - 08:27 am:   

Better than the Cerne Abbas hadron.
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 09-2010
Posted From: 86.140.213.21
Posted on Thursday, August 30, 2012 - 08:42 am:   

Did you see the Large Hadron Collider at last night's extraordinarily effective Opening Ceremony?
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 109.79.16.85
Posted on Thursday, August 30, 2012 - 12:28 pm:   

Science is really beginning to seep into the public consciousness, at least in Western Europe. I hope it's not just trendy, as that would make it ephemeral.

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