| Author | Message | ||
     Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 88.104.137.29 |
Some answers to questions, from Hannah... http://womeninhorrormonth.com/faq/ Pete Tennant for the month of Feb... http://ttapress.com/1015/women-in-horror-recognition-month-black-static-21/0/5/ Maura McHugh... http://splinister.com/post/women-in-horror-recognition-month-2011 Laird Barron... http://imago1.livejournal.com/80455.html Sarah Dobbs... http://sarahdobbs.wordpress.com/2011/02/03/women-in-horror-month-ingrid-pitt/ Some interesting bios on women working in the horror film industry etc.... http://horrornews.net/29827/second-annual-women-in-horror-month-celebration-upda tes/ On Theda Bara... http://horrornews.net/29827/second-annual-women-in-horror-month-celebration-upda tes/ | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 88.104.137.29 |
Sorry ..that last one should have been this... Theda Bara... http://flowersoffleshandblood.horror-extreme.com/?cat=23 | ||
| Barbara Roden (Nebuly) Username: Nebuly Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 142.179.12.225 |
Maybe it's just me, but I'm simply not a fan of 'Women in Horror' month. Looking at the first link you sent, Allyson, I see that February was picked in part because it has twenty-eight days (usually), and that ties in with 'the menstrual cycle'. And the first word that leaps to mind is one that I probably wouldn't get away with posting on here, but rhymes with 'Hit'. And then I read '[W]ithout a time set aside to actually acknowledge [women's] existance [sic] this won’t happen in any large scale way. Just like with any other awareness month the key is the word “AWARENESS” when you have time set aside or an event to recognize something you are making people AWARE of the need for it and the lack of support out there. Women have long been fans and workers in the horror scene as well as the general art and film scene but given very little recognition. Most of them are invisible and we have to dig deep to even find out about them.' Now, I gather the organiser is coming at this more from a horror film point of view, and maybe women working in that field are as generally unrecognised as she says they are; I wouldn't know. Speaking from a horror writer's point of view, however, I can't make a convincing case that women are underrepresented or unrecognised (the BFS essay book from a year or so back notwithstanding). Women writers might be underrepresented in some sub-genres of horror - more men than women tend to write visceral horror full of blood and guts, for example - but in others they're running away with the field (paranormal romance, which isn't every horror reader's cup of tea but does fall under the horror umbrella, along with vampires and werewolves and ghosts and all manner of supernatural things). Speaking for myself, I'd rather be recognised as a good writer of horror than a good female writer of horror, suggesting as the latter designation does that there are various divisions and I'm in the Championship League, while the guys slug it out in the Premier League. Rather than recognising women in horror for a month, how about we just recognise good horror all year round, and leave it at that? | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.165.39.90 |
Hear hear! | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
>>Speaking for myself, I'd rather be recognised as a good writer of horror than a good female writer of horror, suggesting as the latter designation does that there are various divisions and I'm in the Championship League, while the guys slug it out in the Premier League. Rather than recognising women in horror for a month, how about we just recognise good horror all year round, and leave it at that?<< Yes, that absolutely sums it up for me too. I guess there's an argument for this kind of "positive action" thing though, but personally it irks me when we get these kinds of distinctions. Good horror is good horror, whether it's written by a man, woman, fish, camel, or what ever. | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
As an example, going away from the genre, there's a magazine called Mslexia (spelling?), specifically for women writers. Only women (or, presumably, those with a female pseudonym?) can get published in it. If they did a magazine specifically for male writers there'd be an outcry (and rightly so!) | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 88.104.137.29 |
More from Pete Tennant... http://ttapress.com/942/women-in-horror-anthologies/1/5/ | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.165.39.90 |
The question is whether or not the same proportions would have arisen if the submissions were read nemonymously as it were before acceptance or rejection. I suppose we shall never know. | ||
| Barbara Roden (Nebuly) Username: Nebuly Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 142.179.12.225 |
I'd seen that breakdown before, and it's very interesting in some ways. Of course, what it doesn't factor in is how many of the original submissions to each anthology were by women; at the end of the day, an editor can only pick from the submissions she receives, and if the majority of the submissions come from men then the TOC is going to reflect that, if the quality of the stories received is consistent. Another factor to consider is that most horror anthologies are themed, and there are going to be themes that appeal more to one gender than the other. I'd be very surprised if a zombie anthology wasn't predominantly male-written, and a paranormal romance anthology predominantly female-written, for example. An anthology that's looking for gruesome horror is probably going to attract more male writers, whereas an anthology featuring vampires, or psychological horror, will probably get more women writing for it (not more women than men, necessarily, just that a greater proportion of submissions will be from women). And then there's the fact that while a lot of women love horror - as readers, writers, and editors - the genre itself, when taken as a whole, appeals more to men than to women (in the same way that chick lit, as a genre, appeals more to women than to men. Or another example, closer to home for me: I love reading about Arctic exploration, but the vast majority of writers and readers in this field are male). It stands to reason, then, that you're going to get more men than women writing horror, since more men than women read within the genre. There are other factors at play, I think. One is that since more men than women are active in the genre - as readers, writers, editors, and publishers - and since like calls to like, you do still get instances of something akin to an Old Boy's Network, where a work gets put together by someone whose connections are within a certain pool consisting almost entirely of male writers. Then there's the fact that a lot of men tend to be more confident and assertive than a lot of women, which can, in some instances, translate into a male writer happy to submit to any market he thinks he has a story for, whereas a female writer might hang back a bit ('I'm not sure my story is quite right/good enough/what the editor is looking for/I'm not well enough known/It's out of my league', etc.). Not making a sweeping generalisation about the sexes here, just going by what I see every day. What it comes back to is that if women don't submit to a given market, their stories won't get published. I've been in anthologies where I'm the only woman in the TOC; I've been in others where more than half the stories are by women. Was I appalled by the former? Nope; I looked at the antho in question and realised that I'm probably one of the few women writing short fiction for that particular market (Sherlockian pastiche, since you asked). Bottom line: if you submit, and your story is good enough, it'll most likely get accepted, whether you tick the box marked male, female, or prefer not to say. | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 88.104.137.29 |
'There are other factors at play, I think. One is that since more men than women are active in the genre - as readers, writers, editors, and publishers - and since like calls to like, you do still get instances of something akin to an Old Boy's Network, where a work gets put together by someone whose connections are within a certain pool consisting almost entirely of male writers. Then there's the fact that a lot of men tend to be more confident and assertive than a lot of women, which can, in some instances, translate into a male writer happy to submit to any market he thinks he has a story for, whereas a female writer might hang back a bit ('I'm not sure my story is quite right/good enough/what the editor is looking for/I'm not well enough known/It's out of my league', etc.). Not making a sweeping generalisation about the sexes here, just going by what I see every day.' Barbara. I'd agree about the reticence from some female writers. Having chatted to writers recently I really do think some female authors lack confidence. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.195.18 |
From Maura McHugh's article: "Of the 545 books reviewed between June 29, 2008 and Aug. 27, 2010: — 62% were written by men - 38% were written by women Of the 101 books that received two reviews in that period: — 71% were written by men — 29% were written by women" This doesn't seem to indicate much bias. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.195.18 |
What I mean is that the statistical (root-n) error on 101 books is +/- 10%, which means that the percentage of books written by women and the percentage reviewed are, for this sample, statistically indistinguishable. | ||
| Barbara Roden (Nebuly) Username: Nebuly Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 142.179.12.225 |
From Pete Tennant's article: 'Between them the seventeen anthologies under consideration contained 348 stories of which 96˝ were written by women (a half because one story was co-authored by a male), so the average works out at 28%.' This reflects my own experience, which is that about 30% of the submissions I've received over the years are from women (I used to keep track of these things, and I don't suspect the numbers have changed all that much). | ||
| John Forth (John) Username: John Registered: 05-2008 Posted From: 82.24.1.217 |
Barbara. I'd agree about the reticence from some female writers. Having chatted to writers recently I really do think some female authors lack confidence. Out of curiosity, why do you think that is, Allyson? Do you feel it's down to how they perceive the genre, or is it a more general thing? | ||
| Barbara Roden (Nebuly) Username: Nebuly Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 142.179.12.225 |
John: if I can give my take, based on my initial comments. . . . Not all men ooze confidence, and not all women are shrinking violets. Based on my observations and interactions over the course of near-on half a century, however, I'd say that in general, men are more confident in their own talents and abilities than women are (even in cases where that talent and ability doesn't warrant quite so much confidence). A lot of it comes down to men being more prepared to sell themselves than women are, to ask for things they feel they're due. A recent newspaper article in (I think) the GLOBE AND MAIL discussed this in relation to the workplace, and raises; time and again it was shown that men are far more willing to go to the boss and say 'I deserve a raise and this is why', while women who are just as talented and deserving don't, partly because they think it's not their place ('If I was good enough the boss would realise this and give me a raise'), and partly because they simply lacked the self-confidence, or self-belief, or whatever you want to call it to go in and ask. I was talking to someone I used to work with, an eighteen year old high school lad, about what it's like on the high school dating scene these days. Do boys still feel that when it comes to dating, it's up to them to make the first move? Yes, he replied. What would he think of a girl who made the first move on him? 'I'd like it,' he said, 'it would be kind of a relief, because it would take some of the pressure off me, the fear of being rejected.' Had any girls ever made the first move on him? 'Only once or twice,' he said. I'd like to think that this would have changed since I graduated high school in 1981 - that girls felt more able to take charge, make the first move, sort out what they want and then go for it - but it doesn't appear to be the case. How much of this is a lingering clinging to societal expectations, how much of it is hard-wired into girls, and how much of it comes from fear of being rejected, I don't know and am in no position to say. But I suspect that the fear of being rejected plays a goodish-sized role. Think about it. You're a girl, interested in a boy. If you go up and make the first move, there's a very large risk that he's going to say no, or indicate he's not interested in you, and there you are, standing there wanting the ground to open up beneath you. If you sit and wait for him to approach you, though, you're in the driver's seat. Okay, he might not approach; but eventually someone will, probably, and then you're the one who can say yes or no. Now apply this to writing. It's a brutal business, subbing stories, not for the thin-skinned or faint-hearted. You have to be able to take rejection, time after time after time. So I think - it's a theory only, based on my own observations and experience - that a good many women will either sit back and wait for the invites to sub (if an editor invites you then she must like your work, which gives you a good chance of getting in), or else take a good deal of care in what they send where. I'm not saying male writers will just submit willy-nilly ('Well, they say no zombies in the guidelines, but I've got this great zombie story, so I'll send it anyway, they might like it'), or that male writers just shrug off rejections; a rejection stings whether you have two XX chromosomes or not. What I am saying is that a female writer is MORE LIKELY to weigh a potential market carefully, and if she has any doubts at all, she'll err on the side of not submitting, whereas a male writer is probably more likely to shrug and say 'What the heck, nothing ventured nothing gained'. | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 88.104.137.29 |
I'm not sure, John. Could be both. | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 88.104.137.29 |
Was still pondering it when Barbara replied. And yet again Barbara nailed it. Some of the female writers I have chatted to definately say they don't feel that they are good enough (yet) and they don't contact editors like the men do and ask if they can become involved with a project. They seem to do more thinking about it and the consequences than actually sending something off. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.153.144.35 |
I'm a lot more reticent about talking with people face to face than my wife, though I do it when I'm with them (and probably can't shut up once I've started). I write and text and email because I'm more comfortable that way. From my experience a lot of men are like this. I wonder if more men write than women? Might that explain how things seem this way, more men getting published (in whatever genre)? Looking round my supermarket book shelves I think it seems they are about equal. Also, isn't a genre a bit like a box? Don't men like putting things into boxes/lists? Women are meant to be more flexible, 'peopley', relationshippy, men less so. Might this also explain why genres fill up with men? I seem to have no argument here. Hmm. | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 88.104.137.65 |
Some guests on the TTA site with Pete Tennant... First post up, Nina Allan blogging about Joyce Carol Oates:- http://ttapress.com/1019/my-hero-joyce-carol-oates/0/5/ Today's guest blogger is Rosanne Rabinowitz, with "On Machen, misogyny and mad women in attics":- http://ttapress.com/1030/on-machen-misogyny-and-mad-women-in-attics/0/5/ Guest blog from Carole Johnstone:- http://ttapress.com/1023/assumptions/0/5/ | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 220.138.162.204 |
Rosanne Rabinowitz's piece on Machen is good on the whole, but I completely fail to see where misogyny comes into it. A woman is portrayed as evil in one of his stories, so he must be a misogynist? Come off it. | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 178.118.78.72 |
I gather it's "The Great God Pan" you're referring to, Huw. The Helen Vaughan creature depicted therein isn't really a woman, is she? Problem solved.  | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 61.216.50.237 |
Which makes the implication of misogyny all the more misplaced, in my opinion. | ||
| Kate (Kathleen) Username: Kathleen Registered: 09-2009 Posted From: 86.137.108.144 |
I was going to post on this thread when it first went up, but Barbara said everything that was on my mind and I just found myself nodding and saying "Yes! Yes!"  But I had to comment on Rosanne's post. I don't see any misogyny in "The Great God Pan" either. But if that's the vibe Rosanne got from it - hey, it inspired her to write the "other side" of the story. Surely that's a Good Thing. I really bristle at the assumption that any male writer who doesn't write women well (or make them likeable) is automatically anti-woman. If you view every piece of fiction through the "misogynist or not?" lens, you're bound to find evidence to support the argument.  | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 212.219.233.223 |
I'm sure you're sick of my self-promotion appearing everywhere you look, but I'll just briefly state that my forthcoming collection The Brothel Creeper was partly designed to examine questions of misogyny (real and imagined) and in it I've set a little trap for the reader (and reviewer)... The book starts off with aggressive male sexuality (and spirituality) dominant and concludes with female sexuality (and spirituality) dominant. Anyone who judges prematurely will be caught! I've done my damndest to write women both "well" and "not well". Have I succeeded? Buy it and find out! Or don't buy it and don't find out! Blah blah blah... | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.166.117.210 |
Can we have a Gerbils in Horror month? My gerbil, Snotty, is feeling very underappreciated. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.143.134.154 |
I have a 'Tony Lovell in Horror' week every week. Nice cuppa and a biscuit for meself and a little stroke of the bits and bobs I've been in. Nice! ;) We do need to think about bad 'personalities' regardless of gender. If an author wears their hearts on their sleeves it shows something in theirselves perhaps they're glad to get out in the open, inviting criticism or whatever. Maybe it's a kind of bravery, I dunno. Sometimes fear can come across as hate (like my own 'foreigner fear' - my missus keeps saying I'm racist, but I'm not - I'm just nervous and sad about change. ) | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 178.118.78.72 |
Let's put more horror in horror. All the rest is ancillary at best, or ballast at worst. And no, I'm not a misogynecologist. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.56 |
That sounds awfully like the Nicky P school of horror writing | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 88.104.137.65 |
Pete Tennant looks back over Women in Horror Month and at the small press publishing women.... http://ttapress.com/1036/the-weekend-after-the-month-before/ | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 212.219.233.223 |
The dirty swine! | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 88.104.137.65 |
You just couldn't resist it..could you. Amongst other thoughts on it I still think many women lack the confidence to submit. | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
>>I still think many women lack the confidence to submit.<< I fear Rhys (or someone else?) might think that's a little rude too, Ally!  | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 88.104.137.65 |
Ha! | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.253.77 |
To be fair, if you don't have the confidence to submit a story then you might think about getting out of the game. Whatever your gender. You have to engage with the market if you want to be published. | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 88.104.137.65 |
I think Barbara made some good points about confidence and assertion. 'There are other factors at play, I think. One is that since more men than women are active in the genre - as readers, writers, editors, and publishers - and since like calls to like, you do still get instances of something akin to an Old Boy's Network, where a work gets put together by someone whose connections are within a certain pool consisting almost entirely of male writers. Then there's the fact that a lot of men tend to be more confident and assertive than a lot of women, which can, in some instances, translate into a male writer happy to submit to any market he thinks he has a story for, whereas a female writer might hang back a bit ('I'm not sure my story is quite right/good enough/what the editor is looking for/I'm not well enough known/It's out of my league', etc.). Not making a sweeping generalisation about the sexes here, just going by what I see every day.' | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 81.155.19.134 |
something akin to an Old Boy's Network, where a work gets put together by someone whose connections are within a certain pool consisting almost entirely of male writers ====== I think that's just another way of saying that you feel (fear) a market is not for you. For 'male' and 'old boy' read anything else that one uses to explain / excuse one's perceived failings, be it the government or the area you live or the people you meet or..... It's nothing to do with gender. Or it's not only gender. I've spent my life thinking I'm not good enough for the things I aspire to. This is just another excuse on my part not to get my finger out of the Chinese tube.... I agree with Zed. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 81.155.19.134 |
"...as if each of them had a finger stuck in one of those fiendish Chinese tubes, where yanking only sticks you tighter." Stephen King - The Dark Tower | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 88.104.137.65 |
I've just noticed Lisa Morton's link on the U.S. stats to compare...on Pete's page. http://cinriter.livejournal.com/195520.html | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.253.77 |
There aren't even any stats in existence for gerbils. That's rodentism. | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
>>To be fair, if you don't have the confidence to submit a story then you might think about getting out of the game.<< Not sure I agree with that statement, Zed (and Des). I do agree with you both in that I don't feel it's entirely down to gender, BUT I also feel that people (of either gender) can be lacking in confidence at certain points in their lives, yet develop that confidence at another point. As an example, I've worked a lot with adult students, people who've returned to learning usually after having had bad experiences of education as a child. Their confidence is at an all-time low in that respect. But time and time again I've seen students like this grow in confidence (one of the most rewarding aspects of my job) and really achieve. So, what I'm saying is a sweeping statement like the above which seems to relagate anyone lacking in confidence to the dustbin, doesn't seem to take account of how people can grow in confidence at certain points in their lives. If someone's lacking confidence to submit a story, they should be given lots of help and encouragement to develop their writing skills, and thereby their confidence. Here endeth the lesson ... | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
"relagate"?!! Oh dear! I think I'm lacking the confidence to spell properly. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.253.77 |
>>I've spent my life thinking I'm not good enough for the things I aspire to<< Hear-hear, Des - me, too. I had my first story published in about 1998. I didn't feel confident enough to submit at the time, and rather than giving me confidence publication made me think "If they'll publish me, they'll publish any fucker so it mustn't be worthwhile". I didn't submit anything for another 4 or 5 years. I wasn't ready, you see - I lacked the confidence. So I got out of the game until I'd honed my craft enough that it gave me the confidence to start submitting again (I still wrote; I just didn't send the stuff anywhere). A lot of other factors contributed to this situation, of course, but that was the main one: I didn't feel ready. Hence, I wasn't ready. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.253.77 |
By this, what I'm saying is, come back when you've developed the confidence. Live a little; learn a lot. Come back stronger. | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
Ah, right! Sorry, Zed, I thought you meant "get out of the game completely - you'll never be any good if you don't have the confidence now". In that case I *do* agree with your "come back when you've developed the confidence" sentiment. I misunderstood what you were saying there - sorry! | ||
| Kate (Kathleen) Username: Kathleen Registered: 09-2009 Posted From: 86.137.108.144 |
Like any good neurotic, I lack confidence in a number of areas. I just don't let it stop me. | ||
| Simon Bestwick (Simon_b) Username: Simon_b Registered: 10-2008 Posted From: 86.24.209.217 |
Kate- same here. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.68 |
On the issue of confidence about submitting one's work, let's remember Lovecraft's almost total lack of it towards the end of his career. And believe me, confidence doesn't come with fame - I can tell you that from experience. I must say I thought this comment by "Anonymous" in response to Laird Barron - "Next time you're asked to be in an anthology, make it a contractual sticking point that there must be included an equal number of women and men, and if the editor is unable to find enough women to include, withdraw your story" - quite remarkably silly, and an indication of just how ridiculous some of this discussion has become. Indeed, why stop there? Insist on an equal number of gay and straight writers, and an equal representation of all ethnic groups as well before you'll sign the contract. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.23.57.54 |
Rest assured, the EU will eventually make this a rule of all anthologies. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.23.57.54 |
You missed ageism, Ramsey. All anthologies must include old duffers as well as young bucks. So it looks you and that King guy won't get neglected after all. I mean, you both lost your touch years ago, but now you have no need to fear: equality statistics have rescued you. | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 220.138.160.151 |
I thought exactly the same thing while reading some of this discussion, Ramsey. The whole thing is incredibly silly and wrongheaded. The important thing is the quality of the writing, not the sex of the person who produced it. I find it sad that some people automatically assume that prejudice exists simply because there are fewer female authors than male appearing in horror anthologies. Does it really matter whether the majority of horror writers are male or female? It doesn't to me. Much ado about nothing, really. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.166.117.210 |
I agree with Huw. Some people just go looking for evidence of 'prejudice'. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 81.155.19.134 |
Isn't it as simple as there possibly being less Women than Men writers in general interested in writing Horror - which to me and my experience of the women I know would not be surprising to me. Other than that hypothesis, I agree with Huw and Ramsey. As to ageism, Gary, my first novel at the age of 63 is today available for pre-order! Or should this be on the self-promotion thread? | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.23.57.54 |
I think when the BFS book of interviews came out and all the interviewees were male, it was striking that nobody involved in it - contributors included - said, "Hey, hold on, no women here." I'm not sure that's sexism, but I also think it's a kind of mild insensitivity to gender in the field. But that was an isolated incident. A lot seems to have spun off from it. | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 212.219.233.223 |
Many years ago, when I was a student, I got friendly with a young girl who lived in the flat below (not 'friendly' in the Peter Tennant way; but genuinely friendly)... She was incredibly shy, but eventually I discovered that she liked to do some writing in her spare time. "Do you ever submit any of your stuff?" I asked. She looked mortified by the very idea! I badgered her to show me her work; she was extremely reluctant. At long last I managed to persuade her to show me some pages. And it was brilliant writing! Really really good. Crisp, wistful, original, funny, powerful... Try as I might I couldn't get her to send any of it to a publisher; and she wouldn't let me do so on her behalf. Ever since then, I have been troubled by the thought that there might be hundreds or even thousands of superb writers out there who will never be known... Indeed I sometimes wonder if the greatest novel ever written isn't lying unread in some drawer somewhere, its value completely disregarded, destined to be chucked out when the person who wrote it finally dies?! This possibility really has troubled me for a long time; and every time I read a piece of published pap (and there's a hell of a lot of that about) I feel like weeping over the unfairness of a world where cocksuckers with confidence can make it big but geniuses who are "shrinking violets" are doomed to obscurity and some crappy working life in a call centre... It's all very well to focus the blame back onto those "shrinking violets" for lacking confidence -- that approach makes us feel better about our own cynical selves -- and yet I still find this situation sad. Not that's there's anything you or I can do about it. | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
>>Not that's there's anything you or I can do about it.<< .. except to help those "shrinking violets" develop that confidence to submit and promote their work. I'm not sure how that can/should be done, but that's what I was suggesting with my example re my students above. And, I might add, those "shrinking violets" don't have to be female. They could be male/female, old/young, black/white, able bodied/disabled, gay/straight, etc. So I feel the emphasis is on the wrong topic. What we really need to be doing is encouraging shy new writers *regardless* of which category they happen to fit into. | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 212.219.233.223 |
Some of them seem determined not to be encouraged, though, Caroline! Maybe, as an alternative, we should be discouraging the crap published writers? Just an idea! | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 81.155.19.134 |
I agree with Rhys and Caroline. I've often thought those thoughts about the ever-cupboarded novel masterpiece that someone wrote (an otherwise ordinary someone, not necessarily male or female, or any other group)... | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.166.117.210 |
Some people aren't bothered about being published, though. the writing is enough. I used to be like that. I often wish I still was. | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 212.219.233.223 |
Ah yes, the days of purity... writing without giving a thought for being published! Calvino once said that one can only ever write one book -- one's first -- as a human being. All subsequent books are written as a writer. Which is different. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.166.117.210 |
I suspect there's a lot of truth in that, Rhys. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.68 |
"Calvino once said that one can only ever write one book -- one's first -- as a human being. All subsequent books are written as a writer. Which is different." I'd say it was a very silly comment of the kind that's designed to sound like the words of a writer. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.23.57.54 |
And we all know that writing and submitting are just part of the game these days. It's the soul-destroying networking which gives 'shrinking violets' much less chance in today's market. | ||
| Kate (Kathleen) Username: Kathleen Registered: 09-2009 Posted From: 86.137.108.144 |
I always feel conflicted about any sort of spotlight on "minorities" (female horror writers, ethnic web designers, transgendered architects) because it can't help but seem patronising. And while I'd be very proud to be included in a "women in horror" themed antho, I'd also be sad about the perceived need for it. I can't help but imagine people finding the book and thinking, "Aww, isn't that cute? Women are writing horror too! Oooh, 'eldritch' - that's a big word!" | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.166.117.210 |
Networking, alas, is a necessary evil - as it is in every commercial business. But it doesn't have to be soul-destroying. There are two ways of going about it, too: you can either get out there and just make friends with like-minded people in your field, or ruthlessly target "names" in the field to cosy up to and try to further your "career". Personally, I use the former approach, but know a lot of folk who choose the latter. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.166.117.210 |
Oooh, 'eldritch' - that's a big word!" Hahahahaha!  | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 212.219.233.223 |
Ramsey: I think Calvino was referring to the different psychological states between approaching writing as an unknown (someone without any success yet) and someone already established (who has various expectations, both from outside and within, to deal with)... The actual quote is: "Your first book is the only one that matters. Perhaps a writer should write only that one. That is the one moment when you make the big leap; the opportunity to express yourself is offered that once, and you untie the knot within you then or never again." I discovered Calvino back in 1989 (I think it was) and I've never encountered a better writer since. I have, however, encountered plenty of silly writers, many of whom don't even realise how silly they are. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.23.57.54 |
I know you're right, but I still find the underlying agenda of befriending folk who might do you some good career-wise a rather awkward foundation on which to build a relationship. No matter how much it's denied, it's always there. But I know you're right. There are different ways of going about this: cynically or otherwise. Also, I have to be honest, I find career-mindfulness acts as a censor in relation to what you sometimes, honestly, want to say. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.23.57.54 |
(My response to Zed's, natch.) | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 212.219.233.223 |
My disillusionment with networking partly stems from an incident many years ago (Des's 50th birthday party as it happens) when a writer -- who shall remain nameless -- said to me, "Stephen Jones is a wanker, he's an idiot!" and then instantly turned to the editor in question (who was sitting near Des) and simpered, "Oh Stephen Jones! I love your work! I love your editing!" | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.166.117.210 |
>>Also, I have to be honest, I find career-mindfulness acts as a censor in relation to what you sometimes, honestly, want to say.<< That's a fair point. You sometimes have to be political - but isn't that true in all walks of life? I will say, though, that I've made more friends through so-called "networking" than I have through other means. And these friendships aren't based on anything other than talking to a like-minded person at a convention, launch, etc, and finding that you get on well at a personal level. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.166.117.210 |
Rhys - you can spot that type of person a mile off I tend to steer clear of 'em. But what do I know? My idea of networking is just to get pissed and have a laugh with someone - luckily, I'm very sociable and gregarious so it's what I do anyway.  | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.23.57.54 |
Sure. I agree. I've done it myself. So anyone, Zed, about these folk you think "cosy up" . . . | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.23.57.54 |
And Rhys, go on - name names. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.166.117.210 |
| ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.23.57.54 |
I think the point is, and it's ably demonstrated here, that we're all mindful of our reputations while chatting in the field. None of us wants to be perceived as a bitch or a bigot. Except him, of course. That wanker. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.166.117.210 |
Again, though, isn't it the same in most walks of life? | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.23.57.54 |
Yeah, but 65,435,243,756,567 wrongs don't make a right. | ||
| Stevie Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
By happy coincidence I found this interesting anthology in my local Oxfam yesterday: 'The Cold Embrace' (1966) edited by Alex Hamilton, and highlighting women in horror fiction. The 18 stories (in chrono order) include: 'The Cenotaph' (10th C.) by Scheherezade 'The Werewolf' (12th C.) by Marie de France 'The Confessor' (16th C.) by Marguerite de Navarre 'The Doom Of The Griffiths' (1858) by Elizabeth Gaskell 'The Cold Embrace' (1860) by Mary Elizabeth Braddon 'John Charrington's Wedding' (1891) by Edith Nesbit 'The King Is Dead, Long Live The King' (1902) by Mary Elizabeth Coleridge 'The Last Seance' (1933) by Agatha Christie 'The Country Gentleman' (1940) by Margaret Irwin 'The Demon Lover' (1945) by Elizabeth Bowen 'The Lottery' (1948) by Shirley Jackson 'Three Miles Up' (1951) by Elizabeth Jane Howard 'Poor Girl' (1955) by Elizabeth Taylor 'Heartburn' (1957) by Hortense Calisher 'Akin To Love' (1963) by Christianna Brand 'The Press Gang' (1963) by Janet Frame 'Judgement Day' (1964) by Flannery O'Connor 'Open End' (1966) by Shena MacKay A pretty impressive collection by any standards. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.23.57.54 |
Oh, begone with your infernal lists, you misbegotten louse! | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 178.118.79.219 |
"Then, having read a lot and written a lot, you must screw yourself up to withstand disappointment, because the life of a writer in 99% of the cases for 99% of the time is nothing but the cruelest disappointment. If you don't take disappointment, then you'll never be a writer. And if you can't take it, perhaps that's the best sign that you aren't a writer!" Isaac Asimov, 1983. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.166.117.210 |
I don't think right and wrong come into it, though. It's just how these things work - you can't go up to someone, call them an ego-centred fuckwit and punch 'em in the face, then expect them to buy your latest unsold novel. In the same way, you wouldn't sit in an interview and tell the interviewer that his tie is stupid and he has the kind of face you want to slap, and expect him to hire you. 'tis just the way of the world, my friend. And that tie you're wearing is rubbish. (Sorry - I'm being silly. In my defence, it is Monday.) | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.166.117.210 |
Oh, begone with your infernal lists, you misbegotten louse! That, sir, is a classic line. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.23.57.54 |
And I, my good sir, have become a Victorian Patriarch. Depart my dwelling forthwith or I shall be forced to propel you instanter via the aid of my boots. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.23.57.54 |
>>>you can't go up to someone, call them an ego-centred fuckwit and punch 'em in the face, then expect them to buy your latest unsold novel So what you're is that it's impossible to be honest when pitching to a publisher? | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.166.117.210 |
Oh, stop putting words in my mouth, or I'll bite your fingers off, Victorian Dad. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.23.57.54 |
It's not words you put in the mouth of your publishers. | ||
| Stevie Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
That's a great Asimov quote, Hubert. He wasn't the greatest of prose writers, by any stretch of the imagination, but the enthusiasm and entertainment value and mind-boggling ingenuity of his stories batters the reader into submission every time. The Foundation Saga has been a joy to read this last couple of years. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.23.57.54 |
What was that great Asimov tale about the dark? | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
'Nightfall'. Don't be misled by the title. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
It's in the nature of work that you are polite to people you are working with or doing business with. That's not dishonesty, it's manners. And the kind of people who get pissed-up and abusive at social events, then defend their behaviour as 'honesty', are best avoided also. But if politeness tips over into flattery or sycophancy, that's another matter. As I remarked to Rhys 'Stallion' Hughes the other day. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.23.57.54 |
Between politeness and dishonesty, there's another thing called "having to bite your tongue despite being genuinely aggrieved for fear of harming future opportunities". Tell me it ain't so. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.23.57.54 |
Or if this isn't politic, get close and trusted friends - the ones on whom we all let off steam - to come on here and say it instead. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.166.117.210 |
Yeah, I'd imagine we all have moments like hat - but, again, this isn't strictly specific to publishing. For example, I feel like that almost every day in my day job. The field I work in is pretty small, and unfortunately networking rules the way business is done. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
Dignity is an issue as well. Not for me, obviously, but for most of us. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.23.57.54 |
Sorry, you mean dignity in holding your tongue or dignity in speaking up, regardless of consequences? | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.23.57.54 |
>>>Yeah, I'd imagine we all have moments like hat - but, again, this isn't strictly specific to publishing. I never said it was, mate. You're the one banging that drum.  Doesn't change the point, tho. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.166.117.210 |
No, it doesn't change the point. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.23.57.54 |
I once read a great essay about Japan in which it was claimed that Japanese culture has evolved a very specific form of communication which circumnavigates direct confrontation/avoids lapses of honour, etc. The analyst ascribed this to the compact nature of the country and its dense population. Maybe all (relatively) small communities evolve these restrictive codes. It has to be admitted that news travels fast in the small press, and that a comment made in Forum A can be all over Forums B, C and D (and often misinterpreted when divorced of context) before you can say "impolitic lapse of judgement". I look forward, on the basis of my comments here, to being declared a whinging wannabe elsewhere. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.68 |
'Ramsey: I think Calvino was referring to the different psychological states between approaching writing as an unknown (someone without any success yet) and someone already established (who has various expectations, both from outside and within, to deal with)...' I see, but don't find that in the quote. He doesn't seem to be referring to success as such. The actual quote is: "Your first book is the only one that matters. Perhaps a writer should write only that one. That is the one moment when you make the big leap; the opportunity to express yourself is offered that once, and you untie the knot within you then or never again." In my case that would mean Ghostly Tales, written when I was eleven. God forbid! If he means to exclude juvenilia, he doesn't, after all. His formulation seems biased in favour of immature work. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.23.57.54 |
Oh yeah, shit: women in horror. Back to the point of the thread, folks. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.166.117.210 |
Okay, you whingeing wannabe. Zig-a-zig. Aah. | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 178.118.79.219 |
Stevie - found that quote in the Fantasy Commentator Asimov issue. 99% is a bit much perhaps, but it holds true for Belgium: practically all the 'artists' here have some political granddaddy or 'name' newspaper editor behind them and are afraid to lose their grants - and that's why the're so vocal about any sort of change. If you don't (want to) know these buffoons, you're in for a rough treatment and nothing but the cruelest disappointment. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.23.57.54 |
Did you see that, everyone? How he slandered me. How he punched me. How he stamped on my face. May this thread be remembered as the one in which Zed stamped on my face until it went purple. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.56 |
held in posterity forever more you mean? | ||
| Stevie Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
All this just highlights how Franz Kafka was the most perfect writer of the 20th Century... unsullied by the politics of publication. | ||
| Stevie Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
And, going back to the subject of the thread, I stand firmly in Barbara's camp. I hate having to answer questions like "who is your favourite female author" or "black author" or "gay author", etc... that way lies the madness of lying to oneself to sound reasonable to the masses. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
Gary, I mean the dignity of silence. Which differs from the ludicrous posture adopted by many bloggers: "I maintain a dignified silence about all the wrongs done to me, especially... but on that and other shameless crimes I have no comment to make." I've lost count of the number of times I've read a variant on that particular trope. | ||
| Stevie Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
Ah the hilarity of a pumped up ego.  | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.23.57.54 |
You don't think there's a dignity in declaring that the emperor has no clothes? Does the child always have to be lampooned by toadies? | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 178.118.79.219 |
The point is: do you want to read and like an author because (s)he's gay, black, etc. or is the text, music, etc. supposed to speak for itself? Would you go out of your way to praise an artist who's delivered a piece of crock just because (s)he's gay, black or whatever? "Dear me, this sucks up to high heaven, but the lady's a Marxist, so I'd better praise her work lest I be deemed a fascist." | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.183.61.191 |
You don't think there's a dignity in declaring that the emperor has no clothes? Does the child always have to be lampooned by toadies? | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.164.1 |
The child is a disinterested critic, not an embittered stakeholder with a personal story to tell. Imagine a scruffy local government nobody telling the crowd: "The Emperor is wearing MY clothes, and this is how he stole them..." and so on for some time. That tends to be how it feels. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.160.155 |
Or a better comparison might be the way these days, every rap album starts with a track about how the artist was recently dissed by someone in the industry. Doesn't mean there are no legitimate criticisms or grievances. But if airing the genre's dirty laundry becomes your shtick, if it becomes the thing that you do, that's not healthy. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.183.61.191 |
We were, I think, referring to people who have genuine grievances but who are forced to hold their tongue because of certain restrictive protocols. That is not the same as "the genre's dirty laundry becom[ing] your shtick, ... becom[ing] the thing that you do." | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.142.199.132 |
Every new thing you write feels like your first, though - you feel you're getting better, sometimes, and that that betterness is the 'beginning'. Rhys - who was the girl? Do you still know her? I write for fun and to try and be good, if it's published it's a bonus, but I'm not worried about being published or not, just very glad when it happens. | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 212.219.233.223 |
> Rhys - who was the girl? Do you still know her? I don't even remember her name, Tony, unfortunately. If I did, I could do a Google search and maybe find that she's a successful writer now after all! I've been racking my brains about this to no avail. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
Gary – but surely it's obvious that the latter invariably presents itself as the former. It doesn't just happen in our genre – I've seen it happen in poetry and and in gay fiction, to take two very different areas of literature that have in common a smallish pool of specialist publishers. Every now and then a newcomer will try to make an impact by dissing the 'established' writers and publishers – I remember a very talented new writer (in one of the above fields) about a decade ago whose every reading and interview revolved around how shit everyone else was. He always ended with the mantra "gonne sue the fuckers". He swiftly passed from view, not because of a conspiracy to suppress his fearless honesty, but because he had revealed himself to be a self-aggrandising bore. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
P.S. But yes, if someone does have a genuine grievance, it should be possible for them to make it public and be taken seriously. The problem is that when everyone is crying wolf, the true wounded lamb is likely to be seen as a snake in lamb's clothing. Apologies for the horribly mixed metaphor. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.26.213.180 |
I agree with much of this, yes. But I refer to a specific case in which Editor X, a thief and a thug, is effectively protected from exposure by the tacit support of an army of folk who'd like to be published by Editor X. I use the term 'Editor X' because I'd be lampooned, if not worse, if I named names. This is what I'm talking about above. Shit, innit? Especially when a load of other writers, who know Editor X's reputation, are also reluctant to speak up for the same reason. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.26.213.180 |
Incidentally, what we're talking about here - the social process - is basically what happens when folk like Pilger say what they say and get lumped in with the so-called "looney left". Shit. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.26.213.180 |
Which, in a roundabout way, is why I asked about dignity in speaking up when you know you'll get shot down. Oh yeah: women in horror. Sorry. | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 88.104.137.65 |
Oh yeah: women in horror. Sorry. No problem. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.26.213.180 |
(Just for the record, I'm not referring above to anyone with whom you've had difficulties, Ally. That's none of my business.) | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 88.104.137.65 |
Understood. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.26.213.180 |
Women in horror . . . interesting article here, folks: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-12665443 | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 88.104.137.65 |
"A lot of people see horror as one down from porn," she explains. "In the 70s there were a lot of exploitation movies and also the video nasties scandal of the 80s gave horror a bad name." We must all be familiar with that being said in relation to the genre we write/work/read in. Indeed the following question was asked of female horror writers on the LMZ site. 'Why do you think there are fewer women writing in horror than men?' http://littlemisszombie.blogspot.com/2011/03/women-in-horror-interview-list.html Nancy Kilpatrick gives the most comprehensive answer... http://littlemisszombie.blogspot.com/2011/02/interview-with-nancy-kilpatrick.htm l | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.174.136 |
Gary, you're talking about the specific where I'm talking about the general. That means it's not possible to unpack the differences. Sorry about that... Ally, your quote makes the point I was about to make: "A lot of people see horror as one down from porn," she explains. "In the 70s there were a lot of exploitation movies and also the video nasties scandal of the 80s gave horror a bad name." Specifically, writers like Guy N. Smith and directors like Dario Argento created the impression that horror is a form of misogynistic torture-porn for boys who find images of women being tortured and mutilated arousing. People claim Suspiria is a 'masterpiece'. It includes a six-minute scene of a teenage girl struggling to escape from a room full of razor-wire. The opening scene climaxes with a teenage girl's head either being cut off or being split in half, I forget which, by broken glass. This, Fangoria tells us, is 'visionary'. In spite of this nonsense, the last three decades have seen the emergence of quite a lot of very strong female writers of horror, mostly in the USA, initially through anthologies but then through novels and collections. I mean professional and reasonably commercial writers, who may have started in the small press but moved beyond it. It's notable that when Sarah Pinborough started her writing career she went straight to a commercial US publisher. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.174.136 |
P.S. I'm not suggesting that 'commercial' publishing is inferior, we've chewed that bone too many times – it depends on the authors, the publishers and the readers. Small press publishing is more specialised and can afford to address a niche readership. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.26.213.180 |
Is Guy Smith's work misogynistic? I haven't read much. If so, why does he now seem to have a reputation as some avuncular anti-legend? | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.26.213.180 |
(PS I still think there's dignity in speaking up when you know full well you're going to get mauled. In fact, in these cases, I'd say silence as an alternative is undignified and self-regarding. But yeah, these are often specific cases, and we must always judge by context.) | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 88.104.137.65 |
When I was in my local library a librarian asked what I wrote and that she would arrange a few group readings etc. I replied 'horror.' From the look on her face I might as well have said porn. I did a few readings, took with me extracts of books...who they thought 'respectable' and scenes (from Titus Andronicus and Wuthering Heights). It was a long evening. The minute you mention horror to some people they think extreme violence 'splatter' and not that it can encompass so much more. Horror is the best genre to express emotion whether it is psychological horror or anything else you could call horror. | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 61.216.44.222 |
Suspiria is a visionary masterpiece of horror cinema. The scene in which a girl is trying to escape from a room full of wire isn't really all that graphic, as I recall. The film has some fairly extreme violence (as does its equally good sequel Inferno), but it also has a genuinely dreamlike quality and a sense of mystery, not to mention the visual beauty of the cinematography. Sadistic 'splatter' films were around long before Argento. I note that you never berate Bava, Soavi, Romero, Cronenberg or many other directors whose films have contained just as much violence as Argento's. How about Hitchcock? Is he in part responsible for the 'torture-porn' that exists today because of scenes like the shower scene in Psycho? How about Powell's Peeping Tom? Violence is part of life and has always been a part of horror in cinema and literature. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.166.117.210 |
Hear-hear, Huw. | ||
| Stevie Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
Well said, sir! | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.56 |
If Mo Hayder's Jack caffrey books were written by a man they would be castigated as misogynist. Because they're written by a woman the graphic violence against women (including by the hero) is seen as acceptable. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.68 |
"A lot of people see horror as one down from porn," she explains. "In the 70s there were a lot of exploitation movies and also the video nasties scandal of the 80s gave horror a bad name." ... and in the fifties the horror comics followed by Hammer Films, and in the thirties the Universal horror films with Karloff and Lugosi... | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
Ramsey, when I think about the popular horror fiction of the 70s and 80s I always remember your comment that much of it was "pornography without sex". I don't think that could be said of the Universal horror films. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
Gary, I got ritually happy-slapped on another forum for criticising Guy N. Smith, so I won't go too deeply into that topic. As a teenager I read a lot of random horror purchased from second-hand shops at about 20p per book – including one of the 'Crabs' novels. I remember a passage in which a woman is raped and decides halfway through the experience that she likes it. Needless to say the crabs get her (there's an implicit inversion there that needs no comment). Several years later I reviewed another GNS novel for the BFS and they spiked my review because it was too negative. I have no idea whether GNS is misogynistic. I just think his fans are, and he writes to give them what they want. Which is women being shagged and then torn to pieces. Smith's old-school Tory politics and his lambasting of 'political correctness' have led to his becoming a cult figure in certain sections of horror fandom. In addition, I think there's a kitsch 'so bad it's brilliant' element in GNS appreciation. But I've never swung that way. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.26.213.180 |
Except for The Bay City Rollers, of course. | ||
| Jonathan (Jonathan) Username: Jonathan Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.143.178.131 |
Oh don't get me started on Guy N. People don't understand his country ways you know? Pipe smoker of the year indeed! | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
No, they were actually brilliant. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
Posts crossed there... | ||
| Jonathan (Jonathan) Username: Jonathan Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.143.178.131 |
I managed to accidentally upset a work colleague when I told him that Guy N. Smith's The Sucking Pit was the only novel whose title operated as rhyming slang for the quality of the writing therein. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.68 |
'Ramsey, when I think about the popular horror fiction of the 70s and 80s I always remember your comment that much of it was "pornography without sex". I don't think that could be said of the Universal horror films.' No, but the Times compared them without irony to the carnage of the Roman arenas. | ||
| Stevie Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
Guy N. Smith books in the 70s (borrowed from the library) opened my eyes to a whole new world of graphic gore and sex. I can well remember the sense of shame with which I read 'Night Of The Crabs' and hid it under my mattress, lest my Irish Catholic mother discover the kind of filth I was reading. To this day the phrase (I'm paraphrasing here) "she undressed before him and he couldn't help but gasp as her dark triangle of mystery was revealed in the moonlight, within which flowed the river of all man's desires" still gives me a guilty hard on. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.56 |
TMI Stevie. TMI | ||
| Stevie Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
Wait till you see my Top 10 Mr Men books!!  | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.132.93.110 |
Joel - I read some stories sent to Nancy Friday saying some women who had been raped *had* enjoyed it to some extent halfway through, and that some who had been raped in the past had used it to fuel sexual fantasies. Maybe Smith was talking about himself? Maybe, in fiction, it's 'fun' to play with such ideas? I think there's room for such exploration in fiction. Stevie - I quite like that line. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.132.93.110 |
Um, I'm not condoning rape btw - just freedom to roam in writing. | ||
| Stephen Theaker (Stephen_theaker) Username: Stephen_theaker Registered: 12-2009 Posted From: 92.232.184.206 |
The sex scenes in Night of the Crabs were as bizarre and as silly as the rest of the book. I got the impression the writer's knowledge of women was all second-hand - he seemed shaky on the geography. And it was pretty misogynistic - when he gets her pants off he immediately starts to think about the other "men who had lain there", about its power to "withhold secrets from him". Basically, even as they make love on the beach he's thinking about what a slut she is. The funniest line was: "Pat Benson certainly knew what she was doing!" | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.190.68 |
Tony, before I read your last posting I was thinking about C.L. Moore's classic 1930s tale 'Black God's Kiss', in which a tough heroine brings about the supernatural death of a man who intends to rape her and then realises she was in love with him. But the bruised, conflicted, bitter emotion of Moore's story is a space-time continuum away from the crude 'see the bitch get what what she deserves' ethos of GNS. And let's be honest, women are generally far better at erotic horror than men – witness the stunning work of Poppy Z. Brite, Kathe Koja, Tanith Lee and others. A brilliant female writer commented to me recently that the only offensive writing is bad writing. No theme is unacceptable in itself, but a crass mentality makes even vanilla taste rancid. | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 61.216.46.115 |
"A brilliant female writer commented to me recently that the only offensive writing is bad writing. No theme is unacceptable in itself, but a crass mentality makes even vanilla taste rancid." I agree with that wholeheartedly, Joel. | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 178.118.79.219 |
I read some stories sent to Nancy Friday saying some women who had been raped *had* enjoyed it to some extent halfway through, and that some who had been raped in the past had used it to fuel sexual fantasies. In Edward Bryant's "Human Remains" a bunch of young women come together to discuss a potentially deadly encounter with a handsome maniac. I't's been a while since I read the tale, but it clearly suggests the ladies are more than willing to invite the intrusion. | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 178.118.79.219 |
And let's not forget Bradbury's Lonely One and the two ladies talking about him as they return homeward late one evening. It's part of Dandelion Wine, I forget which chapter. The excerpt has been anthologized as a short story. Also, "Reply Guaranteed" comes to mind again. | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
Er .. but we are talking here, aren't we, about FICTION where women are purported to enjoy being raped? Or, Tony, were the "stories" you refer to supposed to be real-life examples of this actually happening? I can't honestly conceive of any woman enjoying being raped. Personally, I'd say that was simply a male fantasy - ie. the male assuming that women MIGHT enjoy being raped, purely to fulfil his own fantasies. Which brings us back again to the idea of women being portrayed as weak or as sex objects (as in the GNS-style of writing) - one of the things which gives horror fiction a bad name. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.144.232 |
I think we're talking not just about fiction but about female characters building sexual fantasies rather than reacting to experiences. There's a lot of difference between an exciting thought and a real experience. Sometimes crossing from one to the other is a bad choice. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.144.232 |
Harlan Ellison's 'Broken Glass' is a fine story on the distinction between the fantasy and the reality of violation. It's the difference between smiling and throwing up. | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 220.138.167.32 |
I was thinking about 'Broken Glass' while reading the last half dozen or so posts. It is indeed a fine story. | ||
| Stevie Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 82.17.254.215 |
Umm, I was about 11 or 12 when I read 'Night Of The Crabs' and it was the first time I had had a woman's bits described to me... nowadays it would be more a landing strip than a dark triangle, if you're lucky. Our sexual preferences are hotwired into us by the first fumbling experience of sexual awakening we have. And for me <choke> that was Guy N. Smith!!!! | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.247.201 |
And for me it was the Bay City Rollers. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.143.134.223 |
Caroline - it shocks me, but this is true; http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070729110501AA4wwAJ I remember a few years ago being shocked by Billy Connolly's announcement that he had found aspects of his own childhood abuse pleasurable, so I don't think it is just about men thinking women 'like' such things. I think our minds are very clever at deriving pleasure from painful situations. I think it must either be some kind of coping mecanism, or the simple fact that we can take experiences apart. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.143.134.223 |
Um, this is very strong stuff, but it's the woman's story told in detail; http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=ApbJmXKz1cuiFmY8n0SDwluACAx.;_ylv=3?qid=20070731002244AAbPc22I for one think she has some problems, and her married life disturbs me perhaps more than what happened to her at the emtpy house. (this link doesn't work - go to Yahoo answers and tap in 'Nancy Friday and the Glamourisation of rape part 7') | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.143.134.223 |
(Or go to the link above it - you find part 7 next to it.) | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.143.134.223 |
'Our sexual preferences are hotwired into us by the first fumbling experience of sexual awakening we have. And for me <choke> that was Guy N. Smith!!!!' Damn. That explains everything. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.26.213.180 |
Joel's obsession finally makes sense! | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
Bloody hell, Tony, I see what you mean. All I can say about that Nancy woman is that she clearly experienced her gang rape as a *sexual* adventure, whereas rape generally is viewed by the woman as *violence* against her - definitely not sex. I guess she has extreme sado-masochistic tendencies when it comes to sex. Phew, think I might have to start thinking about something else like the Bay City Rollers too after reading that. I actually liked their music, you know ... | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.141.211.138 |
Caroline - I think something sad happened to her psychologically beforehand, or during. I think she might have gone slightly mad. And I think her husband is almost worse than the rapists. It all reads like a horror story. I remember reading this thing by a woman who used to have this black man come round and have sex with her in front of her husband. It sounded really demeaning - the guy would ring her and say 'I'm coming round now, be ready for me' and she'd have to stop what she was doing. It sounded unbelievable to me, the whole weirdness of such a situation. She seemed to be treated quite cruelly by this guy but it was all an ornate game, in a way the white couple having an odd sort of upper hand. The implications are really puzzling. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.166.117.210 |
Oh, come on - that story is like something from the Razzle letters page - a woman kidnapped by three hunky, good-looking rapists who, when they were raping her, seemed more interested in her having an orgasm than their own? Please. That's clearly written by a 20-stone bloke in a trailer park. Rape isn't even about sex: it's about domination and brutalisation. I'm sorry, but that story is obviously a load of old bollocks. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.141.211.138 |
Zed - it was in a book by a woman who put a call-out to women about their sexual fantasies. She interviewed them face to face. I've read one of these books and they're amazing in their way. | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 88.104.137.65 |
'Rape isn't even about sex: it's about domination and brutalisation. I'm sorry, but that story is obviously a load of old bollocks.' Exactly. No person invites rape by the definition of the word. Sex is sex. Rape is rape. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.141.211.138 |
I agree - I just think life can be very odd. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.166.117.210 |
Tony - the very story of the rape itself is clearly a fantasy. Stop being so gullible, man. Seriously, that kind of book panders to a specific market. There are loads of them, and many of them contain utterly bogus "interviews". | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.141.211.138 |
They were put together in the 70s, when things like that weren't as common and a little more serious. And for unbelievable, read all of this; http://www.strawberryswitchblade.net/interviews/bysubject_09.php I don't think I could ever write anything like this. I think life is far stranger than we think, more perplexing. It confounds me what people can do and feel. | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
I wonder if there's some truth in it, and some fantasy. OK maybe she was gang raped, but perhaps her recollection of how it happened exactly (as depicted in the link Tony gave) is her own fantasy - a defence mechanism she's built up in order to shield her from what *actually* happened? It's quite possible that our psyche can form a fantasy story to protect us from ugly truths sometimes. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.166.117.210 |
Life's just about as strange as I think. I know this girl who was abused by her father - he once had her and her infant brother standing out in the garden in the rain. He gave them shovels and made them dig. When they asked him why they were digging, he told them they were digging their graves. They put up with years of this kind of thing. She's a nervous wreck now, as an adult. | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
Tony - to combine two threads here today, do you think that some of these "true life" things you're reading at the moment are contributing to your current sad feelings? I mean, maybe you need to read something happy or watch a comedy DVD or something? I'm not saying that frivolously. It's a proven fact that certain good chemicals are released into our bodies (brains? not sure of the exact science) when we feel happy or laugh. That's one of the reasons why someone undergoing cognitive behavioural therapy for things like chronic fatigue and fibromyalgia are taught to "think positive". Just wondering, like ... | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.122.108.107 |
I think I'm looking at it BECAUSE I feel gloomy, Caroline. I'm in the house a lot on my own at the moment and I think it's doing my head in. I think it's this - the net. | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
Seriously, try something to make you laugh instead. It isn't a "cure all" but it'll certainly help you feel better for a while. The old saying "laughter is the best medicine" is actually a proven medical fact nowadays. There are funny things on the internet too, as well as profoundly sad things. | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
Sorry, Ally, I think I've messed up your Women In Horror thread and taken it off track again. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.169.43.224 |
I think it's this - the net. ====================== As I said on the other thread: ... but, meanwhile, it is easy to colour everything with the default darkness that tends to infect the internet, its blogs and its people, despite some brighter sparks here and there. The Net can lead, I feel, to all sorts of dysfunctional anxiety or depression. If I'm affected by it at all, it's more anxiety than depression, I sense. But I know others get depressed by the incessant facebooking, tweeting, blogging, debating / flaming / trolling and guarded (conscious or unconscious) self-promotion / self-advocacy (that takes us to a third thread here recently) etc etc | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 88.104.137.65 |
No Probem Caroline! I'm far more concerned with the suffering of the people in Japan and what is happening with the tsunami than this thread. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.166.117.210 |
The Net does have an off button...I use it every now and then to combat the feelings Des is talking about. | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
>>I'm far more concerned with the suffering of the people in Japan and what is happening with the tsunami<< Agreed, Ally. I've only just seen the news so only found out about this now. Terrible. A former student of mine went to live in Tokyo - she was over the moon when she got a job teaching ESL there. I hope she's OK - her mother will be frantic with worry if she hasn't heard anything from her yet. | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 88.104.137.65 |
My eldest lives in Hong Kong and he's safe. He knows what to do. I got through to him on the phone. He didn't know what was happening, though and lives on one of the small islands. The tsunami is heading in a different direction (not sure how far in any direction) but definately towards Hawaii/America. Huw should be okay in Taiwan but all is unpredictable. I sent him a message via SKU earlier. | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 85.222.86.21 |
Considering that we are in a minority of people who have access to running water, electricity, computers, food, health care systems (regardless of how bad we feel they might be), and generally a standard of life that more people in the world can only dream of, always makes me realize that I am one of the lucky ones. Of course this doesn't mean that we can't feel many things with regards to our own lives and the problems it brings, that's only natural, but whenever I start feeling down, or even sorry for myself, I remind myself of what I have both emotionally in the people I love and respect, and the fact that I have a job and a home. It might be tough sometimes, but it sure beats walking twenty miles a day to reach an open source of uncontaminated water, or watching your kids starve to death right in front of you. Interesting fact that probably people won't believe, but only 1.5 % of people in the world possess or have the chance to possess a computer. That's a fact which usually has a larger impact on teenagers (: | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 85.222.86.21 |
Sorry, Ally, posted before you did. I'm relieved for you and your son. | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 178.118.79.219 |
My heart goes out to the coachloads of Japanese I see in Brughes every time. Must be horrible to get news like that about your home country when you're on the other side of the world. | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 88.104.137.65 |
Ah. He's fine Frank. He's a meteorologist. Used to work at the Met Office but now in a different field. I'm surprised he wasn't glued to the news but he's been out all day. | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 85.222.86.21 |
Good to hear, Ally. |