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Weber (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 109.145.132.161
Posted on Sunday, June 12, 2011 - 01:39 am:   

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqDoBqeV6Lc&feature=related
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 99.126.164.88
Posted on Sunday, June 12, 2011 - 07:26 pm:   

I made it 3 minutes in, and had to stop watching.

Pompous twaddle.
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Weber (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 109.150.142.164
Posted on Sunday, June 12, 2011 - 07:48 pm:   

Will Self is known for that, but he makes some really good points in this.

Not as quickly or as directly as this but...

http://www.dilbert.com/2011-06-03/
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 2.27.112.55
Posted on Sunday, June 12, 2011 - 08:06 pm:   

Very good, clear, accurate and important. All of it fairly obvious to me but perhaps not to everyone. Craig, I'm sorry, but your reaction just illustrates how right he is.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 82.31.19.28
Posted on Sunday, June 12, 2011 - 08:17 pm:   

One can do both, of course. Being on the Internet a lot doesn't mean one has to be subsumed by all this.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 82.31.19.28
Posted on Sunday, June 12, 2011 - 08:22 pm:   

His last few lines are particualrly good. I wonder whether that is true. It feels intuitively as if it is.
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Huw (Huw)
Username: Huw

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 220.138.164.248
Posted on Sunday, June 12, 2011 - 08:24 pm:   

I agree with quite a lot of it, but really he just seems to be stating the obvious, for the most part. Also, there is often nearly as much anonymity in many day to day 'real life' situations (such as shopping). People are attracted to online shopping because it's simpler and more convenient. The whole social media phenomenon isn't quite as simple and black-and-white as the narrator would have us believe, I feel.

I don't see how Craig's reaction shows that he's right - Craig's entitled to his opinion, just as much as Self, or anyone else.
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 99.126.164.88
Posted on Sunday, June 12, 2011 - 09:48 pm:   

Joel, here's my expansion of "pompous twaddle":

I think he's spinning myths, for one: sorry, but people generally do NOT bookstore shop like he's describing - total myth-making. That's the nice way to put it... the other way, would be, total lies.

He says, on the internet, you're free of "gender, race, class, nationality, age, sexual identity, appearance"; it's exactly these classifications that so many strive to be free from, and that I think ARE limiting - I'm not valued under the individual check-marks on that list, I would like to think - does anyone want to be summarized by seven simple categories?

"... but what people fail to realize is, of course, that's it [being whomever you want to be] is true for everybody else as well" (2:19 - 2:13ff): arrogant elitism, clearly on display here.

Complaining about an online bookseller offering things he might like, and not broadening his horizons. Um - wtf?! Twaddle, hypocritical (why is he buying books online if it's so evil?) and elitist (I'M smart enough to know the online seller isn't my friend, but YOU aren't, lowly worm-like audience) twaddle.

The whole "virtual friends" are inversely proportional to "actual friends" is tautological, because he clearly says that actual friends are dependent on who people "actually are," developing relationships, time, etc. - so, that's why actual friends are fewer than virtual friends - okay, so, what the hell's your point?!

The celebrity culture comment has some value, I think, if only unconsciously. People like seeing themselves on websites like Facebook - one's own Facebook page is by a weird extension, a channel, network, world, that is devoted to ME. You get to watch your own show every day. Sure... cut the rest out, though.....

Btw: All this coming from me, someone who is not on Facebook, and has no plans to ever be on Facebook.
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Weber (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 109.150.142.164
Posted on Sunday, June 12, 2011 - 10:05 pm:   

Actually I used to be on first name terms with a few staff members of Manchester Waterstone. It was because of one of them that i discovered Graham Joyce. He knew my taste in books and gave the reccommendation completely impromptu one day.

On one level it may have just been him aiming to get another sale for the day, but it couldn't have happened online.
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Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.96.253.77
Posted on Sunday, June 12, 2011 - 11:27 pm:   

I'm not a big fan of Will Self, but I find myself agreeing with just about everything he says here.

The secret is, I think, to view the internet as one big joke. Never take it seriously.

Huw - he might be stating the obvious to us, but you'd be suprised how many damaged people out there (and a lot of them seem to be online) don't see the obvious.
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 109.79.57.30
Posted on Monday, June 13, 2011 - 12:11 am:   

I think his talk is frustratingly out of focus. What's most pertinent and potentially dangerous is the vast and irreversible social experiment that is being conducted on an entire generation of vulnerable children and teenagers who are forced to see the world and its other inhabitants (arguably primarily) through the rippled glass of the internet. But maybe I'm old and wrong. I hope so. At least these words didn't appear next to my head in big white letters as I spoke them.
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Weber (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.147.142.168
Posted on Monday, June 13, 2011 - 12:22 am:   

They did appear in little white letters here though...
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 217.37.199.45
Posted on Wednesday, June 15, 2011 - 01:36 pm:   

Craig, you don't know what 'inversely proportional' means, Look it up.
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 217.37.199.45
Posted on Wednesday, June 15, 2011 - 01:46 pm:   

A woman in the UK has just been jailed for six months because, when serving on a jury, she destroyed the trial by contacting a defendant on Facebook. Her messages included a classic bit of online pseudo-emotion: "You should know me – I've cried with you enough." She want on to share: "All that note-taking was just killing time lol, drew more than I wrote lol."

Well, now she's been jailed for contempt of court lol. Maybe her 500 Facebook cellmates will keep her company lol.

What is striking about this is that a competent adult assumed Facebook to be more real and important than a trial. That calls for more than a jail sentence: it calls for this person's social education to start again from first principles.
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Mick Curtis (Mick)
Username: Mick

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.176.0.230
Posted on Wednesday, June 15, 2011 - 03:00 pm:   

I think that's commonplace, unfortunately - a lot of people think the stuff they enjoy is more important than stuff they don't, whatever that is, as is shown by the type of 'news' - reality tv stars and the like - that seems to fill the front pages of the tabloids.
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 147.252.230.148
Posted on Wednesday, June 15, 2011 - 03:49 pm:   

"a lot of people think the stuff they enjoy is more important than stuff they don't"

This is profound, Mick. It's something actively promoted by advanced capitalism to the detriment of all.
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Wednesday, June 15, 2011 - 04:10 pm:   

I don't take any of this online "debate" or "opinionising" at all seriously. Not even my own. I mean, to me, that's the only sane way to approach the Internet. It's a useful tool, a good way of keeping in touch with distant friends and can provide hours of trivial fun but it's hardly anything more than that.
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 99.126.164.88
Posted on Wednesday, June 15, 2011 - 07:04 pm:   

Fine, so I mixed up the placement of "virtual friends" and "actual friends" in a hasty internet posting - a good editor would (and did) catch that.

The more accurate criticism against me (though someone should do a study of inverse proportion here) is that I misstated this guy's argument: he's really just saying, I believe, that virtual friends are always more than actual ones, not that there's a direct relationship between them. But my critique leveled against that, remains.
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 212.183.140.29
Posted on Wednesday, June 15, 2011 - 08:29 pm:   

It is possible to build up the semblance of a rapport with an invisible online friend (such as yourself, Craig) based on how much we agree with them or enjoy their friendly disagreement or banter BUT that person will never be a real friend (at least not in my world) until one has actually met them in the flesh and tested that rapport for real.

So far I only have two real friends on RCMB; Sean & Weber. But I hope to expand that number at some stage.

The same rules apply to online dating - only more so.
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 212.183.140.29
Posted on Wednesday, June 15, 2011 - 08:34 pm:   

Likewise I don't consider invisible online enemies to be real enemies either. Just people who take it all a tad too seriously...
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 2.27.112.127
Posted on Wednesday, June 15, 2011 - 09:16 pm:   

No, Craig, it's still clear that you don't understand what 'inverse relationship' means. Look it up.
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 99.126.164.88
Posted on Wednesday, June 15, 2011 - 09:35 pm:   

Fine, I'll just concede. What I meant to convey is a relationship between the amount of "virtual" to "actual" friends: as the amount of one goes up, the amount of the other goes down, and this movement in amounts is somehow related. I don't think he meant to say that now - I think he was just commenting on how there's always more "virtual" than "actual" friends - but I still think the relationship between the two is pointless-to-point-out-edly obvious: of COURSE virtual friends are always going to exceed actual ones. That doesn't mean something is somehow "wrong" with the world....
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 2.24.29.61
Posted on Thursday, June 16, 2011 - 12:15 am:   

No, you're criticising something he didn't say. He said that there is an inverse relationship between the two, meaning (as you say above) that as one goes up the other goes down, with an apparent causal relationship between the two. This is an important observation that describes the change in social activity of a number of people I know, in whom a steady increase in their online 'social network' has gone together with creeping social isolation, social phobia and fear of being offline.
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 82.4.19.77
Posted on Thursday, June 16, 2011 - 12:42 am:   

If that is true, Joel, I can only say... what sad individuals!

To me this online chit-chat is only another way of killing the boring hours when I'm not out galivanting, usually due to the tedium of office work or lack of funds.

For this ever to become more real than real is something I would find truly terrifying. Has anyone written the definitive horror story about this phenomenon? I know the film 'Pulse' tackled these issues - the idea of people becoming ghosts due to online obsession. But I always thought that was a curiously Japanese social illness.
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 2.24.10.54
Posted on Thursday, June 16, 2011 - 01:05 am:   

Craig, sorry, I've been unnecessarily abrasive here. You clearly understand what an inverse relationship is, but you assume (I think without justification) that Will Self doesn't. In any case I should have been more polite.
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 99.126.164.88
Posted on Thursday, June 16, 2011 - 06:44 am:   

Was that abrasive, Joel? I should hope not! Otherwise I'd have to apologize for half the posts I put up here....
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.157.19.205
Posted on Friday, June 17, 2011 - 12:32 am:   

Joel - this has happened to me. I hide from visitors now. I'm becoming a monk. Or even a Munch.
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Huw (Huw)
Username: Huw

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 61.216.200.29
Posted on Friday, June 17, 2011 - 05:29 am:   

"I know the film 'Pulse' tackled these issues - the idea of people becoming ghosts due to online obsession. But I always thought that was a curiously Japanese social illness."

People all over the world get too deeply involved with the internet, Stevie, not just the Japanese! I don't think Kurosawa's Kairo was about people becoming ghosts due to online obsession, rather than spirits using modern technology as a portal to invade the world of the living.
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Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 217.156.210.82
Posted on Friday, June 17, 2011 - 09:39 am:   

Indeed, Huw - howevere, the film can also be taken as a metaphor for the modern obsession with online "culture".

Steve - there are some strange fuckers out there. People who do actually think the online life is more real than real life.

Incidentally, have you seen the film CATFISH? It's brilliant, and timely, and achingly sad.
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.157.19.205
Posted on Friday, June 17, 2011 - 10:52 am:   

It feels more real when you read words from a person. You know the intimacy of reading? It's that, but then it answers you. None of it surprises me. It's easier to text or write than speak face to face, especially for awkward folk. We get a bit of control to our words - I'm a buffoon in real life but do better in places like this. Just!
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.185.23.36
Posted on Friday, June 17, 2011 - 11:30 am:   

So we're all using the Internet to say the Internet sucks.

I think the Internet has a lot of hugely positive aspects, too. I wouldn't know many of you guys without it.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.185.23.36
Posted on Friday, June 17, 2011 - 11:30 am:   

Although in Weber's case, that's probably evidence for the prosecution. :-)
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Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 217.156.210.82
Posted on Friday, June 17, 2011 - 11:37 am:   

Like Stevie, I tend to treat the internet as a palace for my own amusement. In that sense, it's invaluable.
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Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 217.156.210.82
Posted on Friday, June 17, 2011 - 11:38 am:   

Internet pros: I've met a lot of people I wouldn't have otherwise known.

Internet cons: I've met a lot of people I wouldn't have otherwise known.
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Friday, June 17, 2011 - 12:35 pm:   

Just looked up 'Catfish' and it sounds fascinating. Must look out for that one. Thanks for the recommendation, Zed.

Narrative documentaries, filmed in real time (as this appears to be), are one of the rarest and most precious types of movie imo.

Sorry to go off topic but has anyone here seen the absolutely devastating documentary motion picture 'Paradise Lost : The Child Murders At Robin Hood Hills' (1996) by Joe Berlinger & Bruce Sinofsky? I saw it on Film4 one night many years ago and it remains the single most frightening thing I have ever watched (straight up).

It follows, in real time, the investigation of the abuse, mutilation and murder of a group of innocent children in smalltown America, and the subsequent court case, with extensive interviews with all the people involved - including an innocent group of heavy metal fan teenagers who were stitched up for the crime, and given life, because of their outsider looks.

But what makes the film truly disturbing, nightmarish even, is that the real killer, and most disturbing psychopath I, for one, have ever seen is interviewed (Ian Huntley style) as well, at length and without anyone realising who he was (though they soon start to wonder due to his frankly terrifying behaviour).

That film still haunts me to this day and I'd dearly love to get a copy of the DVD. There was a follow-up movie made, 'Paradise Lost : Revelations', in which the documentary crew actively go after the killer, who has moved out of the town, and try everything to have him brought to justice - while he laughs in their faces. And all this is for real. No actors.

Even now I regularly check to see if those boys have been released...
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Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 217.156.210.82
Posted on Friday, June 17, 2011 - 12:40 pm:   

I'll try to track that one down, Stevie...I do remember one about a stage magician's family that turns suddenly a lot darker when the documentary crew uncover evidence that the guy was abusing his kids for years. Can't recall the title, but it was chilling.
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Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 217.156.210.82
Posted on Friday, June 17, 2011 - 12:42 pm:   

Not seen that.

Capturing The Friedmans is another good one.
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Friday, June 17, 2011 - 12:50 pm:   

Yes, I was about to mention 'Capturing The Friedmans' as well. Another mesmerising film that it's hard to believe actually exists. And let's not forget Werner Herzog's astonishing 'Grizzly Man'!

Look up "West Memphis Three" on Wiki for details of the 'Paradise Lost' case and the fight to get those three boys (now men) released. They are so clearly innocent it's ridiculous. And that psychopathic monster is still on the loose doing whatever the fuck he feels like. Brilliant movies both. But prepare to be shocked to your core. I was.
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Friday, June 17, 2011 - 12:52 pm:   

In fact I think he's actually become something of a cult hero!!

Jesus wept.
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Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 217.156.210.82
Posted on Friday, June 17, 2011 - 01:03 pm:   

Herzog's documentaries are brilliant - Encounters at the End of the World is my personal favourite.

Another doc I absolutely love is Wisconsin Death Trip.
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Friday, June 17, 2011 - 01:11 pm:   

Haven't seen either of those but I agree about Herzog. The man lives and breathes cinema.
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 109.79.143.140
Posted on Friday, June 17, 2011 - 01:45 pm:   

I felt that in GRIZZLY MAN Herzog was using someone who was basically mentally ill as a straw man to promote his antipathy towards nature.

I saw some of that other film you meantion, Stevie, and to my shame I find it too disturbing to go back to. Shows what happens when a society judges by appearances and can only think in terms of "good" or "evil" terms.
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 109.79.143.140
Posted on Friday, June 17, 2011 - 01:46 pm:   

(I really should proof read my posts, sorry about the gratuitous words.)
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 217.37.199.45
Posted on Friday, June 17, 2011 - 02:14 pm:   

"Joel - this has happened to me. I hide from visitors now. I'm becoming a monk. Or even a Munch."

Do you mean a Monster Munch?
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 213.122.109.21
Posted on Friday, June 17, 2011 - 02:38 pm:   

I'd buy those crisps!
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Friday, June 17, 2011 - 04:22 pm:   

Proto, I understand why you feel unable to revisit the movie. It packs one hell of a punch and left me shell-shocked after watching it.

Here's the latest update on what's been happening: http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1632489/paradise-lost-team-plans-two-more-west- memphis-three-documentaries.jhtml

The ironic thing is that these documentaries (brilliant as they are) seem to be having a detrimental effect. The more new evidence they reveal and publicity they raise, and celebrity supporters they garner, the more the Arkansas legal system, and the judge responsible, dig their heels in and seem determined to let the original verdict stand. While the man who is almost certainly responsible for the murders is being turned into a cult celebrity, is "writing" a book telling his side of events, and has a film biography being considered for production!
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 109.79.196.155
Posted on Friday, June 17, 2011 - 10:22 pm:   

That's horrible. It makes me want to scream.
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Jonathan (Jonathan)
Username: Jonathan

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.152.96.162
Posted on Saturday, June 18, 2011 - 10:04 am:   

"I felt that in GRIZZLY MAN Herzog was using someone who was basically mentally ill as a straw man to promote his antipathy towards nature."

One thing that I have never ever read into Herzog is an antipathy for nature. The guy has made several nature documentaries (his one on the Artic is stunning) and nature features heavily in his films. See Aguira Wrath of God for example. He may be commenting more on the often cold side of nature. Grizzly Man was a masterpiece.
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Steve Bacon (Stevebacon)
Username: Stevebacon

Registered: 09-2008
Posted From: 90.204.111.202
Posted on Saturday, June 18, 2011 - 10:31 am:   

I recently blogged on my website about how the internet had enriched my reading experience.

Before the internet, the only window I had into the world of the small press was through Stephen Jones's Best New Horror anthologies or Ellen Datlow's Year's Best Fantasy & Horror. Admittedly, that was the cream of the crop. I always felt I needed to read more of the small press, yet had no idea where it all existed.

And then once I started using the internet I had access to all the stuff - good and bad - and even discovered writers (and consequently 'friends') I otherwise wouldn't have met. I use the term 'friends' in a loose way. My personal friends are probably serving a different purpose to my internet friends - the writing and reading friends I've met at Fantasycon or other get-togethers share more of my interests than anyone I know in real-life and see regularly. I'd rather go for a beer with you lot than with any of my work colleagues, and I spend 8 hours a day with them, so we know each other pretty well.

I still like browsing Waterstone's for books. I'm far more tempted into impulse buys that way, but I do buy more books via the internet that I have ever done the old-fashioned way.
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 109.79.93.238
Posted on Saturday, June 18, 2011 - 02:56 pm:   

"One thing that I have never ever read into Herzog is an antipathy for nature."

“Our kitchen crew slaughtered our last four ducks. While they were still alive, Julian plucked their neck feathers, before chopping off their heads on the execution block. The white turkey, that vain creature, the survivor of so many roast chickens and ducks transformed into soup, came over to inspect, gobbling and displaying, and used his ugly feet to push one of the beheaded ducks, as it lay there on the ground bleeding and flapping its wings, into what he thought was a proper position and making gurgling sounds while his bluish-red wattles swelled, he mounted the dying duck and copulated with it.”
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Jonathan (Jonathan)
Username: Jonathan

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.152.96.162
Posted on Saturday, June 18, 2011 - 04:04 pm:   

I'm not entirely sure that's an answer. And his films certainly don't bear out someone with an antipathetic view of nature. Why make nature docs if that's the case which are all about displaying the wonder of nature with almost spiritual verve?
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 137.191.224.102
Posted on Saturday, June 18, 2011 - 05:18 pm:   

I don't know why he makes these films. We can be fascinated by things we don't necessarily like.

"The jungle is obscene. Everything about it is sinful, for which reason the sin does not stand out as sin."
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Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.96.253.77
Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2011 - 01:38 pm:   

I always get the impression that Herzog is both repelled by and attracted to nature; that he's fascinated by it's commonplace horrors.
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 109.79.24.126
Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2011 - 02:31 pm:   

Probably. He's to be commended for trying to look it in the eye and he may be correct - it can be viewed as a mindless web of murder and rutting.

My original statement stands, though. Though he may have other feelings, he does have antipathy towards nature and I feel GRIZZLY MAN wasn't a balanced or fair discussion about it.
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 2.24.5.148
Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2011 - 03:18 pm:   

Steve, before the internet the small press was ten or twenty times bigger, with many fanzines, because people were actually buying small press books and small magzines reliably in those days. The publications were sold at conventions and reviewed by the BFS and other organisations. It was a fan culture and you had to be in fandom to find it, but there was lots of it. Now there are almost no print fanzines and small press book publishers struggle to sell a decent number of anything. PoD technology now dominates the fan press, and that doesn't work too well for magazines. Anyone can find what's available worldwide just by doing online searches, but there's far less than there used to be because, despite the 'global' reach of the internet, it's infinitely harder to sell books than it was before the internet smashed everything.

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