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Allybird (Allybird)
Username: Allybird

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 202.174.163.204
Posted on Friday, August 31, 2012 - 11:28 pm:   

I've been thinking about this lately...

'For millennia, humans have held onto their hubris regarding the belief in human superiority. Perhaps The Cambridge Declaration of Consciousness will inspire a different attitude and further research into the minds of all non-human creatures.

Starting with animal rights through to veganism, changing the minds of those who believe humans are “top dog” will be a challenge. Notable scientists formally recognizing animal consciousness on a level with humans should make for some interesting conversations.'

http://www.care2.com/causes/scientists-proclaim-animal-and-human-consciousness-t he-same.html
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Weber (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 109.145.130.231
Posted on Saturday, September 01, 2012 - 12:36 am:   

Human's have never been at the top of the food chain - if the food chain actually exists in the first place. If it does it's all tangled up and constantly rolling (rolling over the unfortunate pure herbivores). Let's face it, dogs, cats, rats slugs will all eat us if they get a chance. Try telling a tiger or a great white shark thet we're higher on the food chain than they are. Even mosqitos eat us while we're still alive.

Question - if you were to stick a needle in a pig, draw off a pint of blood to make black pudding with, you've not killed or even particularly hurt the pig doing this - is taht then vegetarian black pudding?
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 2.24.18.167
Posted on Saturday, September 01, 2012 - 01:49 am:   

Weber, it's somewhere in between eating meat and eating eggs or drinking milk: it's an animal product that doesn't require the death/mutilation of the animal. However, the fact that it includes part of the animal's body may make it unacceptable to a vegetarian (and it's obviously unacceptable to a vegan). Also, the amount of animal fat in black pudding suggests that blood may not be the only animal product it includes.

The fact that some animals prey on, or feed parasitically on, humans isn't a strong argument against vegetarianism, since what is right or wrong needs to be based on a human moral judgement. But this isn't an issue I have any moral perspective on, as I eat meat by habit and preference. I don't mind being told I'm in the wrong thereby, though forcible removal of my plate might not put me in the best of moods.
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Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey)
Username: Ramsey

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 92.8.18.4
Posted on Saturday, September 01, 2012 - 11:32 am:   

When will someone espouse insect rights?
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Weber (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 109.145.130.231
Posted on Saturday, September 01, 2012 - 11:37 am:   

Kill me now. I just spotted a greengrocer's apostrophe in my last post...

Oh the shame.
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 99.126.164.88
Posted on Saturday, September 01, 2012 - 04:11 pm:   

I believe it was certain Buddhist sects, or obscure Christian ones—I'm blanking on which, though I'm leaning the adherents of a particular Roman Catholic saint—that so revered life, they were forbidden even to swipe at the insects that fed on their bodies.

I remember reading, the wandering, begging disciples of this sect would, say, enter a town in twos, carrying a mattress between them. They'd beg for alms, crying, "Feed the bedbugs!" You guessed it: for a few coins thrown at them, they gave the people a show—they'd drop the mattress, infested with bedbugs, and lie by turns in it; the onlookers would watch in fascination as the bedbugs would swarm over the holy men, feasting on their flesh.... It could have been a youtube sensation, if only anyone had remembered to invent cell phone cameras.
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Mick Curtis (Mick)
Username: Mick

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.180.123.78
Posted on Saturday, September 01, 2012 - 07:15 pm:   

When will someone espouse insect rights?

I'm sure someone is, Ramsey...
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Mick Curtis (Mick)
Username: Mick

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.180.123.78
Posted on Saturday, September 01, 2012 - 07:17 pm:   

http://www.animal-rights.com/arsec5q.htm
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John Llewellyn Probert (John_l_probert)
Username: John_l_probert

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.131.45.253
Posted on Saturday, September 01, 2012 - 08:57 pm:   

I've always loved Cronenberg's quote that a pathogenic bacterium would probably be very offended if it knew what we thought about it.
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Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey)
Username: Ramsey

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 92.8.23.203
Posted on Saturday, September 01, 2012 - 10:51 pm:   

Well, let me suggest this:

Animals do not have rights. It's a fashionable misuse of language. Is it right to mistreat an animal? Let's say not. Does that mean an animal has a right not to be mistreated? I think that's an unnecessary blurring of the meaning of the word. Is it right to pollute a meadow? Let's say not. Does that mean the meadow has rights?
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Huw (Huw)
Username: Huw

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 1.161.40.181
Posted on Sunday, September 02, 2012 - 12:50 pm:   

I love animals and abhor their mistreatment, but I see Ramsey's point regarding 'rights' (at least in the way that word is usually used). It would be nice if everybody could simply treat nature and our fellow animals with respect, as living creatures who share our world. I am all for their protection.
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Duncan Fleming (Microprosopus)
Username: Microprosopus

Registered: 08-2012
Posted From: 87.194.119.137
Posted on Sunday, September 02, 2012 - 02:12 pm:   

Hello all - this is my first post.

I think we have a tendency to overreach our epistemology somewhat when it comes explaining consciousness. There is a fudging lack of distinction between consciousness and self-consciousness (as in reflective awareness of being a conscious entity).

Even if a large part of our human capacity for suffering is connected with our self-conscious attachment to existing forms, we still have so much in common with other creatures that it would be crazy to assume they don't experience pain.

Perhaps the concept of a 'right' is so fundamentally metaphysical it's kind of pointless trying to make sense of it from a rational perspective. When we talk about rights we're grasping at intuitions regarding the 'blueprint' of how nature is supposed to be - it's actually quite a religious impulse.

BTW I don't eat meat. Not because I believe in 'animal rights', but because I find animals so repulsive the idea of putting one in my mouth disgusts me ;)
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Weber (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.130.83.208
Posted on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 02:05 am:   

Welcome to the board Duncan.
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 99.126.164.88
Posted on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 03:00 am:   

Yes, welcome, Duncan. Weber forgot to mention to you, his name's "Weber" because he has webbed feet and hands, and his intellect is the consistency of cheap spongy American bread (yes, I realize that's an odd metaphor, but that's how it is).
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Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey)
Username: Ramsey

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 92.8.24.56
Posted on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 09:47 am:   

Welcome, Duncan! Don't look at Tubby!
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Mick Curtis (Mick)
Username: Mick

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 195.59.115.60
Posted on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 12:26 pm:   

Hi Duncan - welcome aboard...
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Huw (Huw)
Username: Huw

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 1.169.139.172
Posted on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 12:42 pm:   

Welcome, Duncan. I find many animals of the human variety repulsive, so we're at least in partial agreement there.
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Weber (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 82.145.208.14
Posted on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 02:34 pm:   

Craig, that was a simile not a metaphor. I wish you yanks would learn English. ;-)
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 99.126.164.88
Posted on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 04:41 pm:   

Hey! Me leaRNed english; good!!
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Carolinec (Carolinec)
Username: Carolinec

Registered: 06-2009
Posted From: 92.232.244.38
Posted on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 05:16 pm:   

Hi Duncan, and welcome!

One thing you'll find out soon enough on this board is that Craig loves Webber and Webber loves Craig. They may have the occasional falling out - possibly due to the fact that there's a whole ocean between them - but it's plain for everyone to see that that love each other to bits really.

Oh, and to get back to the main thrust of this thread, I've always been an oddball when it comes to animals. To me there are three kinds of objects - animal, vegetable or mineral. We (ie. humans) certainly aren't mineral or vegetable (though some people might make you think otherwise), so that means we're animal. We're jut the same as the ape, the horse, the dog, the cat, the fish, the insect. We do have a tendency to think we're above all these other animals in some way, but then my cats think I'm their slave too!

So, yes, I'm an animal rights person and I'm not ashamed to admit it. However, I do love meat - which always makes me feel guilty ...
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Weber (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 82.145.211.57
Posted on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 05:24 pm:   

Well I've always thought, if we weren't meant to eat animals, why are they made out of meat?
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 99.126.164.88
Posted on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 05:41 pm:   

Me, I've always wondered, if we weren't meant to eat animals, why God made them so tasty?

(sometimes the oldest jokes stay the funniest)
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Weber (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 194.66.23.11
Posted on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 05:55 pm:   

and sometimes they don't
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 99.126.164.88
Posted on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 05:59 pm:   

The oldest joke ever recorded is still funny, though. Some ancient pharaoh or whatever was being groomed, and the barber said, "How would you like your hair cut?" The pharaoh replied, "With your mouth shut."

Though some maintain the oldest joke of all is, Why did the apple fall out of the tree? Because the serpent pushed it.
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Carolinec (Carolinec)
Username: Carolinec

Registered: 06-2009
Posted From: 92.232.244.38
Posted on Monday, September 03, 2012 - 10:31 pm:   

That's killed this thread stone dead ...

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