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Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey)
Username: Ramsey

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 92.8.29.204
Posted on Friday, November 09, 2012 - 02:54 pm:   

Oh no! I have a face...
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Mick Curtis (Mick)
Username: Mick

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.176.179.114
Posted on Friday, November 09, 2012 - 03:35 pm:   

Ah! And whereabouts in Facebook would we find that face, Ramsey? There appear to be a lot of folk with a similar name!
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Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey)
Username: Ramsey

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 92.8.29.204
Posted on Friday, November 09, 2012 - 03:44 pm:   

I appear:

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Ramsey-Campbell/136495729831393
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David_m (David_m)
Username: David_m

Registered: 07-2011
Posted From: 2.26.140.111
Posted on Friday, November 09, 2012 - 03:54 pm:   

Did Simon, Cate and I persuade you to jack into the matrix last Saturday?
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Hubert (Hubert)
Username: Hubert

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 178.116.60.103
Posted on Friday, November 09, 2012 - 03:54 pm:   

So now that you're on Facebook what are you going to do with it, Ramsey? Enlighten us faceless creatures and we may join you.
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Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey)
Username: Ramsey

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 92.8.23.232
Posted on Friday, November 09, 2012 - 10:50 pm:   

D'oh! I may start again, having displayed my incompetence.
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 2.24.7.244
Posted on Friday, November 09, 2012 - 11:32 pm:   

Easy to go astray in the hole that is most of Facebook.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 82.26.131.123
Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2012 - 07:54 am:   

I want to LIKE Joel's comment, but I can't.
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Hubert (Hubert)
Username: Hubert

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 178.116.60.103
Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2012 - 10:15 am:   

But seriously, what does one DO with Facebook? I was nearly lynched by my fellow students last week when it finally transpired I don't have an account.
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Huw (Huw)
Username: Huw

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 111.243.150.238
Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2012 - 10:38 am:   

You can do lots of things with it, Hubert! Chat with people, instant message board, share photos and videos, make photo albums, recommend and discuss anything of interest, for a start. It's also a great help in reconnecting with old friends. I was able to get back in touch with some friends I haven't heard from in thirty years because they happened to be on FB.

Don't let suspicion and fear of technology discourage you from trying new things. I find there is a knee-jerk tendency among some to instantly dismiss and ridicule anything new that happens to be popular as well. It's irrational.
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Mick Curtis (Mick)
Username: Mick

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.176.179.114
Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2012 - 10:54 am:   

Nicely put, Huw. I think it's a great way of keeping in touch with folk that I only see on occasion. When I was first persuaded to join some years ago I couldn't see the point, but quickly got stuck in and don't regret it for a moment.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 82.26.131.123
Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2012 - 11:33 am:   

Facebook is basically like being on stage in a theatre with 2 billion other stages, all of which have transparent walls. Sometimes you're aware of others' performances, but on the whole, you're preoccupied with your own.
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Weber (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.130.83.191
Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2012 - 12:36 pm:   

Plus if you want to go for a bit of identity theft it's amazing how much info people posty about themselves
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David_lees (David_lees)
Username: David_lees

Registered: 12-2011
Posted From: 92.16.241.44
Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2012 - 02:08 pm:   

Yeah, what Huw said. For me, it lets me stay in touch with distant friends like nothing else could and find out about local events and shows.
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Hubert (Hubert)
Username: Hubert

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 178.116.60.103
Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2012 - 04:29 pm:   

I'm nearly convinced.
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Carolinec (Carolinec)
Username: Carolinec

Registered: 06-2009
Posted From: 92.232.244.38
Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2012 - 09:03 pm:   

I'm still a bit sceptical about FB, having only been using it for a short while. Yes, it's good to chat with people, and a couple of good things have already happened for me because I'm now on there, things I might not have had the chance to do otherwise.

However, it's a heck of a time-stealer. I've actually been considering leaving it again as I find I'm wasting so much time there when I could (should) be working and doing other things. I also (and this is a bit sad really!) find that I sometimes feel a bit "left out" when no-one seems to notice/comment on some posts on my wall (or page, or whatever it's called).

But, all in all, I'm glad I joined - it's fun and quite useful. For those of you who are writers it seems to me it would be an invaluable tool for getting your work noticed. Basically, it's a useful marketing tool from that point of view.
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Mbfg (Mbfg)
Username: Mbfg

Registered: 09-2010
Posted From: 62.255.207.128
Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2012 - 09:30 pm:   

Just sold a couple of books because of meeting up with an old friend on Facebook. However, I don't spend much time on it.

Cheers
Terry
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Allybird (Allybird)
Username: Allybird

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 202.174.163.204
Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2012 - 10:37 pm:   

I chat with family via IM and use it as a diary to document my new life in NZ. I like looking back over the timeline as I move ever forward to at least growing something that isn't battered by the wind...and also there are the four horned beasts I have one to have a calf in Feb. There will be photos and it will be cute.
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Carolinec (Carolinec)
Username: Carolinec

Registered: 06-2009
Posted From: 92.232.244.38
Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2012 - 11:22 pm:   

Aww. Can't wait to see the calf, Ally! In fact, I'm particularly impressed with the way you use FB, Ally. As you say, you're using it like a diary and it's really interesting. It strikes me we're all biographers on FB nowadays.

Has anyone ever used FB to write a book (fiction)? It seems to me it would be a great new media to use for that purpose - writing it piece by piece, just like a diary. Of course, you couldn't copyright it or make any money from it, but I'd love to see a piece of FB fiction like that.
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Allybird (Allybird)
Username: Allybird

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 202.174.163.204
Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2012 - 12:56 am:   

Thank you, Caroline. I can chat with my eldest daughter (coming for three weeks soon) check when I planted the veg etc btw the wind destroyed the courgette plants this morning...the leeks are doing fine though :>). Extremely useful when we were building, too.
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Kate (Kathleen)
Username: Kathleen

Registered: 09-2009
Posted From: 86.152.64.60
Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2012 - 08:36 am:   

Yeah, there's a lot of noise on FB but you can control what you see once you get the hang of it. For me the good far outweighs the bad. I think of it as a party we can pop into whenever we need some contact, even if only cyber. It cheers us up and keeps us in touch with people we only see once a year or thereabouts.
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Hubert (Hubert)
Username: Hubert

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 178.116.60.103
Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2012 - 10:20 am:   

However, it's a heck of a time-stealer.

Like there's dozens of messages on your computer every morning? Frankly I don't think I want all these 'friends' I don't really know.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 82.26.131.123
Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2012 - 10:44 am:   

Everybody can be described as such until you interact with them, surely.
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 2.24.10.13
Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2012 - 10:45 am:   

A former colleague of mine, aged 23, said she'd barely used her phone since her mid-teens because FB was the way she kept in touch with her friends and family. More and more I'm finding people assume that posting something on FB is enough to ensure 'everyone' knows it ("You didn't know? But it was on Facebook..."). Not bad for a site that makes its money by selling your personal details to advertisers.
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 2.24.10.13
Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2012 - 10:47 am:   

Gary, bear in mind that a stranger is just a friend you don't really know yet.
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 2.24.10.13
Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2012 - 10:49 am:   

Hang on, I'm not sure I got the phrasing right. It looked right the first time. Try this version:

A friend is just a stranger you don't really know yet.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 82.26.131.123
Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2012 - 10:58 am:   

Yes, very paradoxical. Very Oscar Wilde.
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 2.24.39.44
Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2012 - 12:33 pm:   

I was thinking of Leonard Cohen: "I told you when I came I was a stranger." But the idea's not that unusual. Nor is it really a paradox unless we accept the word 'stranger' at face value. What we get 'close to' in people is not the inner person but a kind of intermediate socially responsive layer. Which at the present time is becoming so thin you can not only see through it, but breathe through it. What's inside is the unknown.

We're reverting to the pre-20th century social communication model that the telephone broke down. The internet is only written correspondence, though it's quicker than letters (which have slowed down greatly since the late 19th century, when letters might be received within three hours of sending). Now people have close friends and even lovers whom they have never met, and we spend 90% of our supposed 'social time' alone. Just like the Victorians. In the days before mass communications and easy transport, many people had sexual relationships through letters. Now people do so online – quicker but very much the same. The phone is another modern idea that is now being phased out, like democracy, literacy and universal education.

It's not that social networking sites are intrinsically 'bad' – it's just necessary to understand that no major cultural change occurs without some things being erased to make room for others. We're losing any sense of the primacy of offline life – not just in terms of how we experience culture (the book industry is in steep and terrible decline) but in terms of how we experience each other.
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Hubert (Hubert)
Username: Hubert

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 178.116.60.103
Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2012 - 12:52 pm:   

One of Lovecraft's biographers (I forget who) once stated it is very easy to adopt and maintain a certain stance through correspondence. The distancing effect facilitates a certain evasion of genuineness. Hence Lovecraft, who would play the omniscient professor, the understanding friend or the big brother to people he'd never met or would never meet. With Facebook you get all these magnificent 'friends' with interesting hobbies and without a single bad trait to their character, whose intentions are unequivocally pure and straightforward . . . What a nice world.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 82.26.131.123
Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2012 - 02:53 pm:   

On the other hand, it can be a lark.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 82.26.131.123
Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2012 - 02:59 pm:   

>>>The phone is another modern idea that is now being phased out, like democracy, literacy and universal education.

Er, mobile phones are being phased out?
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Kate (Kathleen)
Username: Kathleen

Registered: 09-2009
Posted From: 86.152.64.60
Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2012 - 03:07 pm:   

I hate talking on the phone but I don't have the luxury of having frequent face-to-face chats with real friends and family who are spread all over the globe. FB is the best compromise. And I wouldn't compare the chatty immediacy and yes, even *intimacy* of social networking to formal Victorian letter-writing. It's a new world.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 82.26.131.123
Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2012 - 03:11 pm:   

>>> we spend 90% of our supposed 'social time' alone

Is that true? Has it been researched? If it is true, does it refer to everyone or only certain groups? Which groups, and why? Is social media the only cause of such isolation? In some cases, can social media be facilitating? If so, under what conditions and how can they be maximised?
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 82.26.131.123
Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2012 - 03:13 pm:   

Yes, living in a world in which people are more mobile than in previous centuries is also a factor.
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 109.76.24.76
Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2012 - 04:22 pm:   

"We're losing any sense of the primacy of offline life"

Yes. I get the sense that we're being herded, more or less willingly, onto digital trains whose destination we aren't allowed to question.

I feel that the physical world will eventually be made so hostile to our senses that retreat from it, which was once optional, will be made essential for survival.

They're taking real ground away from us and giving us pixels. I use the word They consciously. Unfortunately, They do exist.
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 99.126.164.88
Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2012 - 05:10 pm:   

Jaron Lanier laughs when he hears people posit others could always rise up who can, say, be a new Google, Facebook, etc. His response was a derisive, "They're making sure no one ever can." When they have that kind of market share, there's no chance for upstarts... and their power, will be jealously guarded.

Most people, in real life, let's face it... do we really want to be around them all the time? Imagine an invention where you could take all the massive amount of people you already know—or might want to know, or might not—and distill them down to their most interesting/least annoying aspects; where you could, like a listless King on a lazy day, be entertained by their antics until you tire of them, and then order them away. Well, good news, it's finally here....
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David_lees (David_lees)
Username: David_lees

Registered: 12-2011
Posted From: 92.16.241.44
Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2012 - 05:38 pm:   

But then MySpace used to be the old Facebook, and look where it is today.
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Thomasb (Thomasb)
Username: Thomasb

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 75.25.141.120
Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2012 - 09:09 pm:   

FB is OK by me, better than the confetti stream that is Twitter. I'm fairly well-disciplined about it, though occasionally I have to grab myself by the collar and march myself out. As for publicity, I think I get more page visits to my site overall from here. It's amusing, sometimes useful, not to be taken too seriously, IMO.

See you there, Ramsey!
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Allybird (Allybird)
Username: Allybird

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 202.174.163.204
Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2012 - 10:19 pm:   

I hate talking on the phone too, Kate.
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 2.24.14.0
Posted on Monday, November 12, 2012 - 12:05 am:   

Gary – yes, ten years ago buses and trains were full of people talking on mobiles, shouting to be heard above the general clamour. Now there's only the insect click of text messaging or the silence of smartphone and tablet computer Facebook activity. The phone as a device for actual speech is being rapidly phased out.

'90%' was a figure of speech, sorry if it came across as a supposedly real figure – what I mean is that the majority of people in the West spend at least ten hours in 'social networking' for every hour spent in voice or face-to-face contact outside their immediate household.

My workplace is a case in point: we no longer attend any professional events (conferences, seminars, workshops etc) because of the time cost, but a lot of our working time is spent messaging the professional contacts we might have spoken with face to face if we had gone out. Sometimes we'll spend half a day accessing Twitter and LinkedIn accounts of/news from an event we could just as easily have gone to.

It's indicative of a serious change in human social behaviour. In another few years there will be no more genre conventions, only webcasts.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 82.26.131.123
Posted on Monday, November 12, 2012 - 07:16 am:   

Fair enough, Joe, but again your conclusions sound like they're based on anecdotal evidence, stuff you've observed. Which doesn't make them invalid. But to make the points stronger, are you aware of large studies to support your assertions?

I use text, email, and other e-forms of communication, but this often increases the amount of contact I have with others. The personal contact I had with others before the advent of these technologies has not diminished. That means that if I once had 50 actual meetings a year, I now have 50 actual meetings a year plus 500 virtual ones. Which makes me more connected to others. If you observe me communicating through e-tools, your conclusion is that my personal life is diminished, but I say it is not.

That's my anecdotal evidence to counter yours. But we need some large scale studies to explore some of the intricacies of the whole issue.
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 217.37.199.45
Posted on Monday, November 12, 2012 - 01:18 pm:   

Gary – as regards your working practices, just wait a year or two. I've just seen a news report saying that an approach to reducing hospital mortality rates has worked in the UK despite previously failing in the US, and an expert on health systems commented that in the UK "staff from all the participating hospitals met regularly to discuss improvements. This kind of interaction was very different from the approach in the US, where large-scale 'webinars' were chosen over face-to-face meetings." We're talking about a measurable increase in mortality rates resulting from the adoption of digital communications as the dominant model. What are the chances that consideration of such factors will stop it happening here? I'd say nil.
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Huw (Huw)
Username: Huw

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 114.25.183.250
Posted on Monday, November 12, 2012 - 03:34 pm:   

I don't spend much time on FB, to be honest. There are days when I'm on it for half an hour and days when I don't go on there at all. On average I'd say I spend between 10-20 minutes a day there. Thinking about it now, I realise that when I'm alone I hardly spend any time on it - maybe 5-10 minutes here and there - but when my girlfriend is with me we sometimes spend half an hour to an hour looking over what friends (and friends of friends) have been up to. I probably spend as much time on it as I do here at the RCMB, maybe less.

There is obviously a lot of 'background noise', but I've quickly learned to ignore anything that doesn't interest me. I think it can be a great tool for writers, and indeed artists of any kind, in drawing attention to their work. It's a great way of spreading news.

One thing that I've noticed is that about a third to a half of my 'friends' are people I don't even know, even in the online sense! They're friends of friends (and even friends of friends of friends, in some cases) who sent me 'friend' requests when I first joined, and I felt bad saying no. I'm under no illusion that many of them are truly friends. On the other hand, there are people I've never met physically in my FB friends 'collection' whom I definitely consider friends, even if it is a lot different to the relationship I have with people I've met in 'real life'.

In the end, Facebook is what you want to make of it. If you perceive it as negative from the start, you probably won't enjoy it much.
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Mick Curtis (Mick)
Username: Mick

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.176.179.114
Posted on Monday, November 12, 2012 - 04:17 pm:   

I agree with what you've said there, Huw. Also, to allay Joel's fears about personal information somewhat, the only information Facebook has is what you put in, so it's assuming you're being totally honest, which many are not - i.e. if it asks for a place of birth, you don't have to put the correct information at all.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 2.102.68.251
Posted on Monday, November 12, 2012 - 06:47 pm:   

Hold on, Joel. One moment you're talking about recreational life, and the next working life. Which is it?

I agree that the possibilities alluded to in your last post are alarming, but I thought we were debating social life?
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 217.37.199.45
Posted on Monday, November 12, 2012 - 07:05 pm:   

Gary, I thought you were talking about your working life, hence the transition. Sorry.
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 217.37.199.45
Posted on Monday, November 12, 2012 - 07:10 pm:   

Mick – yes, I know the only personal info used is what you key in, but it rather clouds the FB myth about how we're all sharing our details out of pure lovely sharingness. If you change your FB relationship status from 'Married' to 'Separated', for example, they immediately inform online dating agencies who bombard you with advertising. Some revolution in human consciousness that turned out to be.
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 217.37.199.45
Posted on Monday, November 12, 2012 - 07:14 pm:   

Also, Gary, I can't claim to be debating. I'm just releasing a gentle wisp of steam from the pressure cooker of rage and bitterness.
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Huw (Huw)
Username: Huw

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 114.25.176.201
Posted on Monday, November 12, 2012 - 08:35 pm:   

Well, I'm not listed on FB as married, or even in a relationship, and I've not been bombarded by dating agencies. I barely notice any advertising at all, to be honest. I know Facebook has advertising, and why shouldn't they? That's how most online businesses are run.

Like Gary, I've found my contact with people has not decreased with any time spent in online socialising or texting. Also, I still spend a lot of time talking with family and friends on the phone - far more than I spend texting people (which I actually find a bit tedious - I'd much rather just talk to someone). Just my own experience, of course.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 2.102.68.251
Posted on Monday, November 12, 2012 - 09:11 pm:   

OK, Joel. Understood.

I guess I'm just a bit reluctant to subscribe to blanket statements (pro or anti) on complex issues. And let's face it, human communication is as complex as it comes.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 2.102.68.251
Posted on Monday, November 12, 2012 - 09:13 pm:   

(Ah yes, when I said "meetings", I simply meant face-to-face interaction, and not business gatherings, which are the work of Satan himself.)

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