| Author | Message | ||
     Richard_gavin (Richard_gavin) Username: Richard_gavin Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 65.110.174.71 |
Joel Lane has frightened me. His fiction often does, but in this case it was his statement of a very cold, very ugly aspect of contemporary culture. One that I suppose I'd been reluctant to admit may be fact. In another thread Joel wrote: "We're all people, all flawed, all struggling with the fact that the long-predicted annihilation of literary culture is really happening in our lifetimes and burning down the careers we had hoped to build. It's not easy for any of us." I'd like to hear what you all have to say about this. Are we in fact seeing literary culture annihilated? I'm afraid I have to say yes, we are. Once upon a time I had two life ambitions, both of which were closely intertwined. The first was to write horror fiction with the same prolificness and artistry as our landlord here. His was the literary watershed I hoped to elevate myself to. The second ambition was to open my own bookshop; small and specialized. I would sell genre fiction and ephemera related to it. At one time there were *three* such bookstores in my city. Now not one of them is left. By the time I was old enough to investigate opening such an establishment, it was already too late. To do so would've been fiscal suicide. In the years since I began submitting short stories, the literary landscape has changed drastically. Most of the journals, 'zines and anthologies have vanished. The specialty pressed boomed for a while, but now they too have either folded or have been forced to clamp down on their output for fear of sinking. Yes, there are still the Dan Browns and the Stephenie Meyers of the world, selling millions of copies of books that read like failed screenplays. Yes, books and bookstores are still around, but is that because our culture values authors or is it because the publishing industry has picked up on all the mistakes the music industry made: ie. making flash-in-the-pan "rock star" authors who rake in seven-figure advances? Where are the critical readers? Are the young being taught to analyze and ponder literature the way we all were? As a teenager, books were my salvation. I wonder if many high school kids would say the same today? I don't think the internet is entirely to blame, but facets of it are certainly contributing to this major problem. How sad is it that blogs are already semi-obsolete thanks to that A.D.D.-fostering crackpipe known as Twitter? Being a man or woman of letters rarely meant a life of luxury, but authors who honed their craft and made the written word their vocation could at least sustain themselves, even if a day job was required to supplement their income. I fear that the western world is only too eager to toss the printed word aside, to let its authors fade into the shadows of a glittering, soulless world. The Cult of the Book is shrinking. It may only be a matter of time before the libraries lose all funding and are shut down, before bookstores become mere department stores with just a few bestsellers scattered here and there. Encountering a reader/author may soon be as rare as seeing a horse-and-buggy on an urban road. Or perhaps I'm just making sweeping, pessimistic generalizations? I welcome everyone's input. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.22.201 |
I have that feeling too, and feel it's been quite steady. I sort of felt it starting in the seventies, with the embracing of 'trashy' as if it were somehow ok. Which it might be. I was only a kid but already I could see there were 'proper' books and ones that felt rushed, simple. While reading my Thomas Hardy recently I realised it might well be the fabric and texture of society that is to blame; we are now in such a hurry, really, and less prone to introversion. Gossip used to live on street corners and fuel (or criticise) communities, now it feels like the only art form people pay any attention to. The sort of books that existed before are very different to todays. There just isn't the density, the sweep. For me, books were movies and my tv shows; tv was such a thin thing we still looked elsewhere for our imaginative fixes; tv went off twice a day (something I think should happen again), and we had to go off and do stuff, think about things, reflect. I seriously don't know what the answer is, and as you can see have nothing clear to say. (For the record, I bought a Stephenie Meyer yesterday; next to it on the shelf was Wuthering Heights being sold as 'Bella and Edward's favourite book'. Maybe these 'trashy' books will be part of the old orders resurgence?) | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.22.201 |
Er, the decline has been quite steady, not my feeling! | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.22.201 |
And 'introspection' rather than introversion. God, what am I on? | ||
| Mark West (Mark_west) Username: Mark_west Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.39.177.173 |
Well put Richard (and Joel, before). We used to have a terrific little 2nd-hand-bookshop in Kettering, crammed to the rafters and I found many treasures in there. The building was demolished several years ago, for new development and is currently a waste-ground. We now have a W H Smiths and a Waterstones. I discovered the small press in the late 90s, when there were plenty of print zines around (the Internet hadn't really kicked in then) - where are they now? What would I do now, if I was just starting out - yes, I know I could put my stories to webzines, but I like to have a product in my hand. I don't enjoy reading off the screen, I want to sit or lay and hold the book and read it. It saddens me, because I shared similar ambitions to you which now seem unlikely to be achieved and also because people will miss the thrill of books, of reading, of little shops where the people behind the counter knew exactly what you were talking about and how you felt about books in general. | ||
| Mark West (Mark_west) Username: Mark_west Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.39.177.173 |
Sorry, Tony, missed your posts whilst I was writing mine! | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 213.158.199.97 |
I do agree with the previous viewpoints, and it is a frightening prospect. I hope it will turnaround, improve somehow, but at present I can't see that happening. But I do think it unrealistic to hope that everybody involved in quality writing will succeed in attaining a life built on an income from writing. I'm not talking about megabucks, just a satisfactory career. Every decade is littered with writers whose names have long been forgotten, and I'm not talking about the really good, or great writers, just competent, decent writers. Have a look at any Pan Book of Horror Stories, and there's no amount of decent writers who were never heard from again. I'm not advertising this cultural demobbing a thing of realism, just making note that economics or not, we cannot all expect to make a living from it. On the matter of opening a specialist bookshop, that's entirely different. That shocks and saddens me immensely. In Liverpool I remember several specialist bookshops, my favourite being 'Chapter One' where I first met Ramsey doing a book-signing. Alas, now a jewellers, or was, last time I looked. The chip shop next door still remains!!! | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.247.202 |
How many horror aficionados here eagerly pick up a tiny nameless 'zine filled with wholly unknown writers thinking, "Oh yes! I can't wait to read something by someone I've never heard of! I'll discover something wonderful!" over a book of tried-and-true authors whose work they know well...? let alone, at all (i.e., pick it up)...? I'd extrapolate this as far as you need. | ||
| Richard_gavin (Richard_gavin) Username: Richard_gavin Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 65.110.174.71 |
Good points, Frank. I'll hone my own point a bit further regarding writing as a career: Doubtless there have been hundreds of great authors who were unable to sustain themselves by writing alone. This has always been the nature of the book world. However, if you look at how lopsided the division of monies has become in most mainstream publishing, you see how it helps to annihilate literary culture rather than foster it. Publishers seem to be dolling out buckets of cash to some writers while leaving mere crumbs for others. I'm not referring to authors such as Stephen King, who, aside from being a great writer, is one whose longstanding popularity warrants a hefty advance. I'm not even really referring to Stephenie Meyer, whose 'teen books are selling wildly at the moment. (With millions of copies sold I think she should be compensated, however bad I think her writing might be.) But there is a more disturbing trend in publishing, namely the "rock star" author that I mentioned in my initial post. Two recent examples: Andrew Davidson and Elizabeth Kostova. Both are *first-time* novelists. Both of them produced manuscripts that, for whatever reason, chummed the waters of the publishing world and led to bidding wars. Both their books were bought by major publishing houses for over $1 Million. Each. The fact that neither author had any sort of track record to warrant this level of compensation apparently mattered little. The critics were almost unanimous in their dislike for both novels. Sales stalled on both, then plummeted. Both novels were expensive, poorly-executed bombs. But the scathing reviews and poor sales will likely not impact the authors one bit. They've been paid. So where are these publishing houses going to look to recoup their losses? More than likely it will either come from mid-list writers who will receive smaller advances and royalties and fewer publishing slots, or it will result in lay-offs, thus shrinking the publishing world even further. Sorry to ramble there, Frank!  | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 213.158.199.97 |
Richard - you're not rambling at all, pal. I completely agree with you. I wasn't been cynical, or excusing the policy of the publishing house extermination plan, which is what it seems to be, just noting the even harder uphill struggle for decent writers. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.211.184 |
Maybe there is something wrong with publishers. I saw a book in Waterstones today, which had blurb under the title saying: "Your a stranger in your own world." [sic] Richard, "Are the young being taught to analyze and ponder literature the way we all were?" Were we really taught this, Richard? Or were we drawn to these things by something within us? Is reading (the desire to do so, not the ability) learned or innate behaviour? I think that's an important question to answer. If it's learned, then it's worthwhile trying to promote it. Tony, I agree with you - quieter, more introspective times are more suitable for books. We may get that back, though. An engineer has developed a speaker that allows us to accurately focus sound on just the area occupied by the listener. This will create as much silence as noise in the world. Imagine never needing to hammer on your neighbour's wall, having to listen to someone else's music on a bus. There's a lecture about it on the web somewhere [useful directions there! -- ed.] The third thing is that maybe we just have enough books. Seriously. Unless you can write better than one of, say, the top 5,000 books ever written, you're working in the long tail of niche marketing, where few people can reasonably expect to make a living. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.211.184 |
"But the scathing reviews and poor sales will likely not impact the authors one bit." Well, apart from never being published again... The $1m advances are made to create buzz, aren't they? A gamble designed to bootstrap the book into orbit. In a way, then, publishers are taking chances on new authors. One or two a year. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.211.184 |
"The third thing is that maybe we just have enough books. Seriously. Unless you can write better than one of, say, the top 5,000 books ever written, you're working in the long tail of niche marketing, where few people can reasonably expect to make a living." Yeah, I'm going to agree with myself here. Why should one expect to be able to turn a hobby into a career unless one can significantly advance the medium? Why should anyone be paid for producing lesser works than those that already fill shelves around the world? | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 06-2008 Posted From: 86.157.25.85 |
Richard's premise above is correct. That's why I've spent the last 5 years putting all my fiction work (stories (new and previously published), novellas and novels) on the internet free for all to use within The Weirdmonger Wheel... No idea if it has been used however.  No comfort from me, therefore. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.211.184 |
I think your way could be the future, Des. There was a scene in the documentary COMEDIAN in which a young comic complains to Jerry Seinfeld about how difficult the stand-up circuit is and how hard it is to see your friends buy houses and cars in their ordinary jobs. Seinfeld looks like him as if he's insane and asks him if there's something else he's rather be doing. If so, the implication is that he should do it. No comfort from me either, just a reminder that the only reason to do anything is because you enjoy the process. | ||
| Richard_gavin (Richard_gavin) Username: Richard_gavin Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 69.157.30.167 |
Protodroid wrote: "The $1m advances are made to create buzz, aren't they? A gamble designed to bootstrap the book into orbit. In a way, then, publishers *are* taking chances on new authors. One or two a year." True enough, but I wasn't talking about publishers never taking chances on new writers. If anything, I was illustrating a point that they sometimes take *too great* a chance with new, unproven writers. Bootstrapping or not, the fact remains that this big-stakes gamble is nothing more than an attempt to tell the reading public what they want, which never works. I don't think any of the mega-bucks blockbuster books have been created in this premeditated fashion. From PEYTON PLACE to HARRY POTTER; all of these books were mid-list or small-press releases that caught the public's imagination for one reason or another. It was only after the public began gravitating toward them that greater quantities were printed and distributed. Protodroid wrote: "Why should one expect to be able to turn a hobby into a career unless one can significantly advance the medium? Why should anyone be paid for producing lesser works than those that already fill shelves around the world?" There are several points to address here. Firstly, it's true that some writers are content to write as a hobby, perhaps submitting a story now and again. That is perfectly valid. But there are others, many of which are on this board, who toil daily at it, pouring out a good deal of blood, sweat and tears to produce works that will hopefully make an impact on a reader, maybe even make a lasting mark on the field. This, I feel, is worthy of compensation. Yes, I am referring to filthy lucre here. Good writing is born of effort, often many years' worth. Writers should be paid for their efforts. If it's publishable, it's worthy of some form of compensation. Even small presses offer copies and sometimes a small amount of cash. This is as it should be. Regarding simply enjoying the process: I personally love the whole process of writing, *especially* the difficult parts, the creative struggles. But typing The End is not the end of the writing process, it's the mid-point. Having one's work read by others is a crucial part of the writing process. An unread story, to borrow from Alan Moore, is simply masturbatory. Yes, we all know about the Emily Dickinsons of the world who secreted their work from all living eyes, but when all is said and done, most writers want their work to be read. Not necessarily adored by millions or sold for billion-dollar movie deals, but *read*. Even if only by a few interested souls. All of this really falls under the umbrella of my initial point: the book itself might well be an endangered species. The process of writing and reading good prose to enrich our lives might (and I stress *might*) one day be totally obsolete. Best, Richard | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.22.201 |
That chilled me Proto, that all the best books might already be written; all of my favourite books are pretty old. Maybe yes, we're the bee hitting against the glass. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.23.233.247 |
I'm never sure people who write are 'owed' anything by the public, btw. It'd be nice, but it'd also be like rewarding people for mowing their lawns very well, or being nice to their dogs. We're all just doing what comes naturally; it's a bonus if others appreciate it. Hey - there's a Misty special doing the rounds, only available in Smiths, with a hardback to come. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 147.252.230.126 |
"Good writing is born of effort, often many years' worth. Writers should be paid for their efforts." Why? I think Tony's right -- why would someone be expected to be paid for doing their hobby (e.g., gardening, knitting, playing football)? If you can manage it somehow, that's terrific, but it isn't a right. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgmK6AaEzkk "If it's publishable, it's worthy of some form of compensation." Clearly, then, most things are not publishable now, for a number of reasons. "Having one's work read by others is a crucial part of the writing process." Sure, you can give it to your friends, put it on the web, leave it in cafes in the form of leaflets. That's all great. But nobody has a right to be paid for it. By the way, I do think that arts should be supported by government grants and so forth. I'm a believer in that. But they're not rights. Will readihng for pleasure become extinct? Possibly. All it takes is one general to not read and it's the end. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
If a publisher is sellign a writer's work, then it should be a right that the author is paid. It's a simple concept, really. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 147.252.230.126 |
Read it again, Zed. "Writers should be paid for their efforts." [my emphasis] | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 147.252.230.126 |
I should maybe clarify. If you can sell your work, that's great. If not, nobody has a right to be compensated just because they put a lot of effort into it. I put a year of my life into my a chewing-gum sculpture of Winnie Mandela. Couldn't shift the bugger on eBay. If you're having trouble being published/broadcast/selling inflatable fruit then stop making things that nobody wants. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 147.252.230.126 |
And I'm not trying to be mean, Richard/Zed/whoever... just face possibly difficult realities. We've got to move on rather than sit around hoping the mid-twentieth century will return. Look at David Lynch - turning his back on analogue film forever at his age. The details of the medium is the least important part of creativity. A true artist can conjure art from a green biro and the back of an envelope. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
Ah, right. Now I get you. Yes, that's a good point. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
I put a year of my life into my a chewing-gum sculpture of Winnie Mandela. Couldn't shift the bugger on eBay.  | ||
| Steve Jensen (Stevej) Username: Stevej Registered: 07-2009 Posted From: 82.0.77.233 |
If you couldn't sell it, maybe recording a promotional single might have helped you get rid of it; all together now: 'Freeeeee Winnie Mandela...' | ||
| Richard_gavin (Richard_gavin) Username: Richard_gavin Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 69.157.30.167 |
Protodroid: You emphasize "efforts" from my post, presumably to show how my stance differs from Zed's, when in fact it doesn't. By "efforts" (which was probably not the most appropriate word) I was referring to the fact that a good, PUBLISHED writing -- a work that is presented in a quantifiable, physical, tangible object, such as a book or magazine -- is born of effort. Monetary compensation should be involved. Zed in effect said the same thing. As an aside, the impulse to tell stories may "just come naturally," but the ability to write well certainly doesn't. You've agreed with Zed about publishers who produce books and charge money for them should be paying their writers, yes? I would agree. I think many here would. But this is really just getting into a matter of semantics and about the matter of *published* writers being paid, which is a separate issue. Perhaps we can delve further into Protodroid's notion: "We've got to move on rather than sit around hoping the mid-twentieth century will return." I'm not quite sure what you mean by "move on" here, Protodroid. Are you referring to leaving the concept of books behind? I ask because you made reference to David Lynch moving away from analogue film in favour of something more modern. Are you talking about online/digital works for free? I'm not waiting to pounce here, by the way. I didn't start this thread so that I or anyone could stand on a soapbox. I'm curious to learn your thoughts on this. Cool? | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.153.151.6 |
Proto meant if we write and no-one publishes us we shouldn't be paid, or expect to be. If a piece is published, of course we should. These feel like troubled times for all sorts of reasons. Things feel in hiatus. Maybe when books are gone for a while they'll be missed, wanted back. I like the idea of the cash-machine type book publisher; choose your book and it's printed out in front of you. Heck, you could even choose your own cover. I really do like this idea a lot, actually. It sort of takes publishers out of the mix, and shocking advance sales. It'd be a great leveller. How do people feel about audiobooks btw? I sort of like them if they're done right, and they are writing in the original form; spoken. | ||
| Richard_gavin (Richard_gavin) Username: Richard_gavin Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 69.157.30.167 |
Tony wrote: "if we write and no-one publishes us we shouldn't be paid, or expect to be. If a piece is published, of course we should." Agreed. I figured you, Proto, Zed and I were probably talking about the same principle, just from different angles. I believe Mike Kelly is looking into the type of Print-on-Demand system you describe for Undertow Books. I've seen some final products from these machines and they look really good. I also love well-done audiobooks. In fact, it was an audiobook read by Michael Hordern that introduced me to M.R. James's work when I was a wee lad. Funnily enough, I sometimes hear Hordern's voice in my head when I read certain James stories. | ||
| Mark West (Mark_west) Username: Mark_west Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.39.177.173 |
Michael Hordern, for me, will forever be the voice of Paddington. And there we go, I've managed to derail this. Sorry. The PoD is a good idea and would be a leveller, but there will always be the folk who don't want to use that method (ie, I've never downloaded any music), which will create an underground kind of attitude to books. Which could be good. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.153.151.6 |
I hated downloading music but am now doing it like crazy. It's almost addictive. Maybe the same will happen to books, with people looking for feels and types of story rather than particular authors (i.e. 'customers who bought this also bought this;' etc). It might get rid of Dan Browns, but give others a chance. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
Audiobooks are terrific. Their main purpose is to give people who are visually handicapped access to books. In addition they provide a story-hearing experience to people who are driving, on long shifts etc. They are closely similar to readings on the radio. There is nothing the matter with audiobooks, and I don't think they threaten literary culture – rather, they improve access to it. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.13.172 |
I hated downloading music but am now doing it like crazy. It's almost addictive. Tony, if you like downloading music, here's something I've discovered.... http://www.keepvid.com or http://www.savevid.com (there's others, too) It's for downloading any youtube video onto your computer into either MP4 or FLV format, quickly and insanely easily. Youtube is filled with entire music libraries, whole albums, etc. You just get a good translator program somewhere (I use the one from iSkysoft), that can translate the MP4 say to an MP3 - and you can cull entire albums of almost anything, even the most difficult, impossible to find stuff, for absolutely free. (It's great too for finally getting a hold of impossible to find films - check out this guy's library alone: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=HankQuinIan&view=videos) And if anyone objects, well - not only can I at any time listen/watch this stuff as it is on any computer, anywhere - until youtube takes down the "offending" material (and they CAN, at any time, to any video: they do it all the time), or the "offending" websites are shut down or put out of business or have laws passed against them, or the translator programs are deemed illegal to own or use, well... one can only assume no one out there has a problem at all with this.... (assuming one's not reselling things, or loaning them out, etc.) | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 06-2008 Posted From: 81.153.252.202 |
Audiobooks are terrific. ============== I agree. I've been reading aloud my own stuff here for a few months now. http://weirdmonger.blog-city.com/summary_of_dfl_readings.htm | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.214.77 |
"Audiobooks are terrific." Count me in with these too! I got addicted ever since someone posted a link to Radio 4's The Man in Black earlier this year. Been downloading Radio stuff mainly. I'd recommend Jeffery Palmer reading THE MAN WHO WAS THURSDAY. The DOCTOR WHO stories Radio 7 has been playing have been great fun too. I know that I used to commute without an mp3 player, but I've no idea how I did it now. "if we write and no-one publishes us we shouldn't be paid, or expect to be. If a piece is published, of course we should." Yeah, that's it. "I'm not quite sure what you mean by "move on" here" I mean move on from expecting the writing business to be what it once was. Part of what's happening down to the democratisation of media. I think it's a wonderful thing, but it means that we're in a buyer's market now, and possibly forever. | ||
| Karim Ghahwagi (Karim) Username: Karim Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 80.163.6.13 |
Also a fan of Audiobooks. I will also give some new authors a shot in the audiobook format. Oh and speaking of impending death, Publisher's Lunch had an article on this today: http://vook.com/ The Video Book... And speaking of the ebook phenominon, I had three friends who each emailed me a cracked version of Dan Brown's new ebook as a joke- literally within the first 17 hours of the book's release- I deleted all of them unread. |