| Author | Message | ||
     Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.171.129.69 |
Nick Griffin is on BBC 1's Question Time tonight, in case any of you missed the news this week. Folk from overseas may be interested to know that Griffin's the leader of the BNP, the UK's fascist party, I think it's fair to say, and there's been controversy concerning the BBC's decision to put him on air. The BNP has representation at local council level in the UK and two MEPs (Members of the European Parliament). | ||
| Stephen Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
Nick Griffin also looks like somebody's black comic idea of a Neo-Nazi ubergeek (Heinrich Himmler wannabe). I don't usually stoop to personal abuse when discussing politics but in his case I'll make an exception. Have these people no idea how ridiculously stereotypical they are?! Having said that I fully support the BBC's decision to give the guy enough rope to hang himself with... | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.47 |
It's only fair to let him on. It would be fascist to withold his freedom of speech as a leader of a legitimate(?) political party. Let him have enough rope and he'll hang himself hopefully... | ||
| Steve Jensen (Stevej) Username: Stevej Registered: 07-2009 Posted From: 82.0.77.233 |
At best, this is just the kind of idiotic liberalism that empowers disgusting racists like the BNP; at worst, the BBC are guilty of the same kind of cynical attitude (i.e publicity/controversy = viewers/browsers) as seen in Jan Moir's loathsome Daily Mail article re: Stephen Gately. Sadly, the much-vaunted freedom of speech we all value is all-too often defended by those who would deny it to others. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.74 |
I believe he should speak and be heard to speak (and I say this as one who loathes the BNP and their views). Outlawing views doesn't destroy them, it simply drives them underground and gives them the appeal of the forbidden. In case anyone's bothered, I don't see this as incompatible with my declaring a while ago that some views aren't welcome on this site, any more than I would regard as censorship my rejecting an anti-Semitic story that was submitted to me for (as I recall) New Terrors. Not wanting to put my name to such views, even by association, is quite a different thing from censorship, and the Internet contains a theoretical infinitity of platforms where they may be expressed. | ||
| Steve Jensen (Stevej) Username: Stevej Registered: 07-2009 Posted From: 82.0.77.233 |
I think times have changed, Ramsey, even during my lifetime (I'm 43). These are the days when image is seen as everything, to far too many people who crave fame's spotlight - having Griffin on a respected forum like Question Time legitimises his party's politically-expedient and morally-offensive positions. I think it would serve us better if he & his party were 'underground'; for example, Griffin gives a 'voice' to those who would unthinkingly blame 'foreigners' for all social ills, whereas the true blame lies with politicians and their sponsors. On a personal level, I despise anyone who denies the Holocaust, perhaps the greatest crime in history. This offends me, not as a Jew or as a liberal, but as a human. | ||
| Stephen Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
My biggest fear is that the audience are so busy booing and hissing (and holding their noses) we don't actually get to hear the poison coming from Griffin's mouth. Now that would be bad and play into his corner. If ever there was a time for considered debate and the careful demolition of a spurious viewpoint it is 'Question Time' tonight. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.171.129.68 |
The best lies are couched in truth. When Hitler was gaining strength in Germany, his critics denounced his every word. Alas, this didn't prevent folk from joining him, rather the opposite. The reason being that the critics just said if Hitler said it then it's wrong. Hitler was appealing to people's concerns, and by denouncing everything Hitler said as rubbish and not admitting that there was massive social unrest, a ruined economy, etc, Hitler's critics failed themselves and the people they could've helped. The BNP appeals to a group of people whose protestations about the way this country is being run are not being heard or represented. And when a government minister appears and says the BNP is speaking nonsense without showing understanding of those people's concerns himself, it encourages people to believe the BNP are the only ones who do understand. I was in the Peak District recently. On a tower on top of Abraham's Heights, I got chatting to an older, rather nice lady, who told me she was moving out of London to move to England. She wasn't racist. She wasn't a fascist. She just looked at the streets she'd lived her life in and found no sign of the England she'd expected as a right. Now she was looking away to the National Parks in the hope of finding it. She wouldn't choose to vote BNP, I'm sure, but out of despair she might well make a protest vote if no one stands up and makes a stance for what could be conceived as common sense: The UK is an island and there's only room for so many, why not let it be for those who live here? We get the politicians we deserve. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.171.129.68 |
By the way, wouldn't it be nicely mischievous of folk to join the BNP (it can't have a massive membership) and rejig its policies internally, making them the most liberal party in the country? | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.171.129.68 |
I'm not sure about the BNP's policy concerning myself: my grandfather was Irish. Am I allowed to stay because I'm white (after a shower, obviously)? Don't they just discriminate against folk on a colour basis? | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.47 |
There's more and more "positive" discrimination going on these days. Police forces who insist on a quota of officers from various ethnic minorities, the tories saying they'll be selecting certain candidates from woman only lists, etc. This also plays into the hands of the BNP. They can easily play the "The only people you can legally discriminate against is the straight white male" card. For whatever reason, no matter how noble, you cannot discriminate according to gender or race. Unfortunately, political correctness only runs in one direction. The BNP play on that fact all the time to help with their agenda. If you were to open a group where only white men were allowed, people would scream that you were racist, but black only, women only and asian only organisations are very common. While the decks are stacked like that, the BNP will continue to find support. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.171.129.73 |
Before you know it, they'll be letting women vote... | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.47 |
I'm just saying that everyone should have an equal chance. No discrimination for any purpose - as that plays into the hands of groups like the BNP. In the USA apparently your skin colour gives you extra points on your university application as apparently you have automatic disadvantages if you're from a black background which need to be compensated for. Surely that's racist in itself. It also means that the children of Will Smith or Denzel Washington (for example - rich successful and their kids have more advantages than most already) will start several points ahead of some poor white kid from a trailer trash estate who's desparate to crawl his way out of the gutter. I can see the noble reasoning behind it, but I can also see the fucking huge holes in that reasoning. I'm not saying deny anyone the opportunity, I'm saying give us a truly level playing field. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.248.111 |
Level playing field? And simply getting rid of the compensatory mechanisms you mention would give us that, would it? | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.47 |
Not basing the compensatory mechanisms purely on skin colour or genital type would help... | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.248.111 |
But you don't really think that the playing field is level without these mechanisms, do you? | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.47 |
There are disadvantaged people of all racial and sexual varieties. These mechanisms currently can discriminate against white people with these backgrounds. Base the compensatory mechanism on family history, poverty level, local crime rate etc. Not the colour of the skin. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.47 |
Tipping the playing field the other way up doesn't make it level. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.171.129.73 |
Life's not a level playing field. But it'd be nice if the top-earning strikers of this world recognised that fact and didn't keep scoring hat-tracks against those in the local pub team. Courtesy of Weird Metaphors R Us. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.248.111 |
In other words, compensatory mechanisms are necessary. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.248.111 |
Mark, is a "hat-track" some weird drug? | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.171.129.73 |
It's a 'drig,' noun given to a typo from a big-thumbed bafoon. Hey, at least the economy must be in good shape: bankers are getting their bonuses again! How was Scandinavia, Gary? | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.248.111 |
Off tomorrow, mate. I just emailed you. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.248.111 |
>>>Hey, at least the economy must be in good shape: bankers are getting their bonuses again! Not Stephen Hester. He's got to get RBS's SP up to 70p first. Then he gets several million.  | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.248.111 |
And guess when the SP will hit 70p, earning the gov £2 billion - early to mid next year, just before something major must take place . . . ? The World Cup, maybe . . . ? Hmm . . . | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.195.197 |
I'll watch this tonight. Do you know that your telly leaks over from the Northern Ireland transmitter into Eire? You're throwing away free telly! The BBC news become a lot more tabloid - highlighting stories would be of no interest if they weren't "captured on CCTV". Murdoch has dragged all of civilisation down a peg or two. If the BNP fellow talk. Maybe he'll have a nervous breakdown on telly and admit he's just scared. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.195.197 |
Correction: LET the BNP fellow talk. Maybe he'll have a nervous breakdown on telly and admit he's just scared. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.195.197 |
Then maybe some black polititian on the panel will start crying and admit that sometimes he doesn't feel quite British enough and feels a bit lost between cultures and insecure. Then Dimbleby will start crying and ask if he's done this job enough to win his dad's respect. Then Mandelsson will start crying and his face will fall off, revealing 1970s circuit boards. Yeah, it's gonna be a good show. | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 80.47.23.139 |
Just seen some clips on the main news - he shows himself to be the loathsome person he is. | ||
| Steve Jensen (Stevej) Username: Stevej Registered: 07-2009 Posted From: 82.0.77.233 |
Then Mandelsson will start crying and his face will fall off, revealing 1970s circuit boards.  | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 89.19.81.219 |
The BBC showing clips of it in their own news programme inclines me to think that they're just creating their own news now. Why not have John Sargent set off a bomb in a ghost train and then report on it? | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.171.129.71 |
Jaisus. You're right, Justin: Mandelson's bloody Maskatron! Grifin is claiming to have landed some punches. Soon be time to watch and see... | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.240.106 |
Then Mandelsson will start crying and his face will fall off, revealing 1970s circuit boards  That was so Albieesque. I can't even be bothered to watch this. I'm watching RABID on DVD instead. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 89.19.81.219 |
Same thing, Zed. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 89.19.81.219 |
Ugh. The level of debate is infantile on both sides. Very few calm heads, far too much posturing. And Griffin did make a good point about Jack Straw getting on his high horse when he's intimately involved in the deaths of 100,000+ Iraqi civilians. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.194.158 |
If we could ban Sinn Fein from broadcasting before the peace agreement, why can't we ban the BNP? Nick Griffin wrote in the BNP newsletter that the party would make sure its political policies were backed up on the streets with "well-aimed boots and fists". His deputy, Tony Lecomber, has served time in prison for bomb-making. The largest cache of ilegal explosives ever found in England was found two years ago at the home of a BNP memvber. David Copeland, the Soho nail-bomber, was a BNP member. No other political organisation in the UK is as mired in terrorism as the BNP. It has a twin-track political startegy: populist rhetoric in the media and the conventional political channels, murderous violence on the streets. I agree with those who argue that driving the BNP 'underground' would do less harm than letting their supporters feel they are part of the political mainstream – because of that twin-track approach. Innocent people will be murdered because of the encouragement tonight's broadcast has given to killers. The BNP is a criminal and terrorist organisation deeply opposed to democracy. Letting it take advantage of freedom of speech is absurd when it denies others the right to breathe. Would you let a rabid dog appear at Crufts? | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 89.19.81.219 |
> If we could ban Sinn Fein from broadcasting > before the peace agreement, why can't we ban > the BNP? You forget that that media ban was a publicity coup for Sinn Fein. Every ludicrously dubbed interview that was transmitted gave the impression that this was a government that was stifling free speech and therefore had something to hide. > Would you let a rabid dog appear at Crufts? If it won all the preceding competitions, yes. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.171.129.71 |
Jack Straw took a sucker punch about the government's failed immigration policy, I thought. He gave the exact answer that drives folk to the BNP, refusing to accept the decision that allowed open migration from European countries to this one was a total fuck up. That's gained Griffin votes, assuming that the folk who will vote for them will only see that much of it on BNP propaganda shows (Question Time tends to be watched by politicos only). | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.240.106 |
The level of debate is infantile on both sides. Very few calm heads, far too much posturing I agree totally, Proto. I ended up watching this, and it was all very, very predictable: the other MPs spent all their time point-scoring and trying to make the audience applaud them instead of allowing Boss-eye Nick (he makes Jack Straw look like a matinee idol) to hang himself by his own petard. When he did get to speak, the bloke was a shambles. He came across as being a bit thick, to be honest - unfocused arguments, lame excuses, silly denials (not being able to remember the source of the dodgy survey he quoted, changing his answers, etc). The whole thing was an embarassment, like watching a bunch of not very bright schoolkids arguing, and for me summed up why average working people don't take party politics seriously in this country. Joke TV, designed to garner viewing figures by being a bit naughty. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.240.106 |
That's gained Griffin votes By morons, maybe. I'm honestly ashamed that the idiot's even taken seriously. But I also said that about Tony Blair, and look where he ended up. :-/ | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.171.129.71 |
The forthcoming President of Europe... | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.171.129.71 |
And we don't get any say in that... | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.240.106 |
That entire programme actually depressed me it was so silly and juvenile and empty. Is this honestly the state of party politics in this country? Really?Is Question Time always this dumbed-down? No wonder I have no interest. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.171.129.71 |
He'll be thrilled to learn Pearce Brosnan's playing the character based on him in The Ghost, should Polanski ever finish the movie... | ||
| Mick Curtis (Mick) Username: Mick Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.176.6.55 |
I thought Question Time a waste of time really. In the end, those that despise Griffin will despise him still, and those that feel "he's the only one listening to us" will continue to feel that way. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.240.106 |
I disagree, Mick - putting him on TV was the best thing that could've happened. He really came across badly: slimy, evasive, giggly, and stoopid. And he's ugly; everyone knows you need to be photogenic to come across well on telly. Like. If I wanted to see a fat ugly little man in an ill-fitting suit I'd look in the mirror. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 89.19.81.219 |
It stank of self-promotion and self-interest. Nobody seemed in search of truth. Nobody wanted to learn or have their views challenged. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.240.106 |
Yep. Totally. Shit, I must stop agreeing with you, proto. It's a bad habit.  | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 89.19.81.219 |
Dimbleby allowed an audience member to call a member of the panel a "dick" at one point. What's happened to the BBC? | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.240.106 |
To be fair, I doubt he would've been quick enough to stop it - he looks half-dead and reacts to things about 20 minutes after they've been said. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.171.129.71 |
I'll just qualify the comment about Pearce Brosnan playing 'him' in the movie. Blair, that would be. Not Nick Griffin. Alas Question Time didn't do itself any favours by sticking to topics that the BNP had clearly objectionable policies to. Would've been interesting to have seen his answers to the postal dispute. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 89.19.81.219 |
> Shit, I must stop agreeing with you, proto. It's > a bad habit. We could always talk about films..? I didn't know Nick Griffin was such a minger. It's like Ken Clarke and David Milliband fell into a telepod. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.240.106 |
That did confuse me for a moment... I only watched QT in the hope that someone would twat griffin. That would have at least been a laugh. Imagine it: Jack Straw and Nick Griffin windmilling at each other...comedy gold. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 89.19.81.219 |
"To be fair, I doubt he would've been quick enough to stop it - he looks half-dead and reacts to things about 20 minutes after they've been said." Yeah, but he could have refused to take the audience member's question after that. It might have lifted the tone. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.240.106 |
I didn't know Nick Griffin was such a minger. For some reason you using the word "minger" is hilarious. Words like that don't fit the image I have of you. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.171.129.71 |
I agree. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.171.129.71 |
I agreed about Dimbleby not taking the question after the bloke called Griffin a dick. I'm not gonna comment on Nick Griffin's stunning good looks. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.240.106 |
yes, sadly, the dick joke fit in well with the tone of the debate. I was expecting someone to say nah-nah-nah-nah-nah and blow a raspberry. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.171.129.71 |
A depressing number of people are phoning into the talk stations saying they thought Griffin talked sense on immigration issues and Jack Straw lied about the situation. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.207.105 |
> Words like that don't fit the image I have of you. What's the image? | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.240.106 |
A distracted physicist in a tweed suit, with messy hair and a distant look in his eye as he ponders the questions of science and nature. You know, like Johnny Morris. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.240.106 |
A depressing number of people are phoning into the talk stations saying they thought Griffin talked sense on immigration issues and Jack Straw lied about the situation. Please tell me that isn't true...Cheesus, no wonder I have such a dim view of people in general. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.202.140 |
A depressing number of people are phoning into the talk stations saying they thought Griffin talked sense on immigration issues and Jack Straw lied about the situation. See? Even dumb people smell evasion and half-truths. Straw's main concern was looking good. He left a gap between what he said and the truth and Griffin oozed into it. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.240.106 |
Yes, but he oozed so badly. I mean, can't these people see that they're both lying, self-promoting cunts? I advocate assasination. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.240.106 |
(I hope Chris barker quotes me on his bell-end website: it's all I ask out of life these days). | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.202.140 |
> A distracted physicist Check. > in a tweed suit, Never. > with messy hair Sometimes. > and a distant look in his eye both of them. as he ponders Yes, lots of that. > the questions Hmm? > of out with it, man! > science ah, science. I'm nearly finished solving science. >and yes? >nature. Ra-ther! | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.240.106 |
 | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.240.106 |
Scuffed shoes? | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.202.140 |
Chris Barker has never attacked me. I may write a good book just to piss him off. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.202.140 |
Scuffed shoes? Let me check. No, they're relatively new. Ecco. Comfy. There are science people much madder than I where I work. One who deliberately electrocutes himself to see who much current he can take. One who won't go to the staff canteen because "the magnetic fields up there are too strong". And one who does a spectral analysis of his wife's favourite song to prove that women like songs with low-frequencies in them. They're all the same person by the way. | ||
| Mick Curtis (Mick) Username: Mick Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.176.6.55 |
I disagree, Mick - putting him on TV was the best thing that could've happened. I can't see that, zed, as we all knew he was a dick before he came on the programme, but most of the folk who voted for the BNP probably thought he got a raw deal on QT. If the BNP now plummets in popularity yes, you'll be right, but I can't see that happening somehow. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.240.106 |
Yeah, you're probably right because they're all thick as fuck. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.195.174 |
I'm off to watch a truly great British export: BOTTOM. The existential angst of the duo suggest Beckett and Richie's wearing of pyjamas at the breakfast table on his birthday is a sly reference to Pinter. Okay, it's just a series of knob gags. (Ordinary person in pub: How's your pint? Critic: Tour-de-force!) | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.171.129.72 |
People who are concerned about immigration etc won't remember Griffin being a dick - they take that as read, and his flailing performance may actually help him seem like an ordinary person trying and failing to get his concerns across - what they'll remember are the parts of what he said that chimed with their onw beliefs. When Straw punched himself on the jaw refusing to admit the government's open border policy - as I'm calling it for conveniance's sake - was a disaster, people at home with worries saw a government minister denying the truth as they see and experience it. When Griffin said some people found homosexuality creepy and distasteful and members of the audience heckled him, calling out 'rubbish' and 'wrong', they'll say he was right again, because some people 'do' find the notion of homosexuality repugnant. When Griffin pointed out the misogeny and vile practice inherent in a religion, claims that in other situations the panel would've been sympathetic to, he was roundly dismissed as a racist. Again, people at home will see and hear this and think it's the politicians who are out of step, and that Griffin does understand some of it at least... Sad, really. Griffin was unquestionably a dick, but Bonnie Greer (and to a lesser extent the Tory Baroness) aside, the panel reacted against him instead of reacting to the issues he was taking an extreme view on. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.204.69 |
If Griffin made any ground, it's the fault of the poor debating skills and lack of professionalism of the panel and weak chairing of the debate by Dimbleby. I never noticed how ineffectual he was until this. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.204.69 |
Anyway, BOTTOM was fantastic. Richie and Eddie were stuck on western Europe's biggest and most dangerous ferris wheel and were rescued by the giant hand of God at the end. (Deus ad machina?) | ||
| Mick Curtis (Mick) Username: Mick Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.176.6.55 |
Proto - my favourite episode, that one, even though it's not set in their grotty flat. "Uggy, uggy, uggy"! | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.204.69 |
I didn't like BOTTOM when it was first broadcast. I think I as expecting another YOUNG ONES. Returning to it 15 years later, it's a work of art. Modern American comedians can't come close to Rik Mayall's broad but finely-textured performance. The little eye movements and gestures he adds are priceless. I love their grotty flat. My fave eps of things are when nothing happens and people are confined - Episode 4 of I'm Alan Partridge, the first ep of BOTTOM, some of ONE FOOT IN THE GRAVE, most of STEPTOE. I think it forces the writing to improve and reveals more about characters. I say characters, but these are characters from the Beano - their aspirations go as high as a wad of tenners, a girlie mag, a slap-up grill or even, someday who knows, a look at a cracking bird's chest area. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.171.129.68 |
BOTTOM's up there with the best, all right. Cartoon's in the flesh. Brilliant. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
Cartoon's what? | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 80.47.23.139 |
That smile in the same sentence as talking about the holocaust and the friendship with the KKK leader, said it all, really. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.171.129.69 |
Cartoon's on the TV in the flesh. Pity me: I've a tiny keyboard... :-( Yeah. Ally. Griffin's going to complain to the BBC because the format of the show changed into a BNP-bashing event, don'tcha know. | ||
| Simon Bestwick (Simon_b) Username: Simon_b Registered: 10-2008 Posted From: 194.75.171.106 |
Yes- a fascist complaining he was bullied. Diddums. My arse bleeds for him. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.220.206 |
"Yeah. Ally. Griffin's going to complain to the BBC because the format of the show changed into a BNP-bashing event, don'tcha know." If they changed the format of the show specifically to put him at a disadvantage (which it seems clear that they did) I think he's got every right to complain. And those grounds for complaint have been handed to him on a plate by white-livered cowards wnose only concern was scoring cool points for themselves and their parties. | ||
| Stu (Stu) Username: Stu Registered: 04-2008 Posted From: 86.29.187.181 |
>>My arse bleeds for him. That's your fault not making him use vaseline. | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 80.47.23.139 |
If you put youtube kkk and his name in a search engine - you hear (at a rally in America) what he would have really wanted to say. | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 80.47.23.139 |
Yesterday all the junior schools in my area had a rally at the football ground. Some of children came home with signed t-shirts/all took part in discussions...and had been clearly given the message - no to racism. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.171.129.73 |
First polls are in since the show and suggest a rise in support for the BNP. I'm not surprised: on the key issue voters wanted to hear about, immigration, Jack Straw fumbled the ball and thus made Griffin seem the only one who spoke the truth according to people's experience, even if he did look like a sex offender sniffing the little girls' knickers in BHS. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.233.208 |
According to whose experience, Mark? The people violently deported because the Home Office decided they hadn't been tortured enough in the countries they were trying to escape from? The people held in our detention centres for months on end while we try to decide whether they deserve our night shifts and non-unionised McJobs? Or the people living with communities of drunken English expatriate thugs in Spain, Majorca and other countries around the world? Immigration is only 'the key issue' for the stupid, the deluded and readers of the Daily Mail. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.251.135.39 |
Mark, I think you're falling into the trap of personal attacks on Griffin, which is the same trap those people on the panel and in the audience last night and I myself fell into earlier in this thread. An ad hominem is a tacit admission that your argument is feeble argument. We don't need to behave like that to show that the BNP's logic is flawed. If Griffin was invited on and treated fairly and reasonably, he would have soon outcast himself by his own words. By abandoning logic, everyone else looked equally as extreme and illogical as he. | ||
| Steve Bacon (Stevebacon) Username: Stevebacon Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 90.209.108.225 |
There were several comments that Griffin made that betrayed both his 'true' agenda, and surprisingly how inarticulate he is. For someone that must be used to speaking in public, I thought he came across as being verbally amateurish. Jack Straw wasn't much better. | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.21.22.157 |
Is there a transcription anywhere of this interview? The image is everything. Indeed! Look at all the nazi documentary stuff so readily available on YouTube. Goebbels was right, at least where the workings of propaganda are concerned. I'd go so far as to say that it's very easy for a 'fascistoid' individual to be persuaded by the simplistic glitter and glamour of those Nuremberg rallies, Hitler's speeches etc. | ||
| Steve Bacon (Stevebacon) Username: Stevebacon Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 90.209.108.225 |
The programme is available to watch on the BBC iPlayer, Hubert, although I'm not sure if there are regional restrictions. http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00nft24/Question_Time_22_10_2009/ | ||
| Stephen Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 82.0.106.15 |
My final word on the 'Question Time' debacle is that my worst fears were realised. Instead of going for calm informed debate on the wider issues of the day which would have made Griffin look the uninformed, inarticulate, single-issue buffoon he is the BBC handed him a propaganda coup. He was attacked from all sides with understandable but ill-thought out venom which only made him look like a victimised martyr to those people who already support him or were thinking of doing so. I really expected more of the programme makers and the panel and fear that a unique chance was fluffed on the night due to lack of self-control. Griffin's glee as he was publically heckled and pilloried on national TV was chilling to watch - I could imagine just what was going through his mind... votes, votes, votes. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.171.129.68 |
Joel, I meant folk such as the nice lady I met in the Peak District, mentioned somewhere above. Griffin mentioned on 5 News yesterday a comment that matched exactly the lady's concerns. I find it hard to believe she and her companions would ever vote for such a party as Griffin's, but he did speak the truth of her situation and that cannot and must not be denied. Yes, though, he also spoke vilely as well, which must also be pointed out. The traditional 'safe' refuge of suck people's concerns used to be the Conservative party. I hope it becomes so again. Justin, I agree. Don't make it personal. The comment I made about Griffin was just meant to illustrate the fact that his 'appeal' is not restricted by his plainly ugly agenda, when it appears that only he is pointing out a truth that others see and believe is not being expressed by mainstream politicians. The majority of his concerns about the nature of a certain religion mentioned in the show (if I'm being wary, it's because I'm aware of Ramsey's reluctance to have certain issues either distorted out of true on here, or things being mis-perceived), those concerns were expressed in more considered but just as powerfully felt words by Martin Amis shortly after September 11th. I believe that particular religion to be a woman-hating, homophibic and vile and treacherous construction, with its worshipers hailing and cruel and malicious deity. (I'd probably have added, should I have been on the QT panel, that I believe other religions to be as bad, though, certain States of the US aside, not as fundamental and frenzied as the one spoken of on the show.) Again, when Griffin said a number of people found homosexuality creepy, he was probably correct. If he wasn't, then why so much gay-bashing, across society? And again, Griffin was denounced and shouted down, rather than debated with and an argument promoting inclusivity put to him. It's the failure of the panel to debate him and instead to shout down him rather than his arguments (though Bonnie Greer did a good job trying to do that) which has resulted in a surge of support for the BNP in the polls. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.251.224.172 |
"He was attacked from all sides with understandable but ill-thought out venom which only made him look like a victimised martyr to those people who already support him or were thinking of doing so. I really expected more of the programme makers and the panel and fear that a unique chance was fluffed on the night due to lack of self-control." Hear-hear. It was s stark reminder that when we throw mud, we lose ground. We can't only give free speech to opinions with which we agree. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.74 |
I can't find your reference to the Peak District lady, Mark - too much stuff about BOTTOM in the way, perhaps - but I'd propose to substitute "people's prejudices" for "people's experience". | ||
| Steve Jensen (Stevej) Username: Stevej Registered: 07-2009 Posted From: 82.0.77.233 |
Interesting read here, to say the least: Labour let in migrants 'to engineer multicultural UK' Andrew Neather, a speechwriter who worked in Downing Street for Tony Blair and in the Home Office for Jack Straw and David Blunkett, said Labour's relaxation of controls was a plan to 'open up the UK to mass migration'. As well as bringing in hundreds of thousands to plug labour market gaps, there was also a 'driving political purpose' behind immigration policy, he claimed. Official policy: Huge increases in immigration over the past decade were 'a deliberate attempt to engineer a more multicultural Britain'. Ministers hoped to change the country radically and 'rub the Right's nose in diversity'. More: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1222613/Labour-let-migrants-engineer-mul ticultural-UK.html | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.171.129.74 |
I was in the Peak District the other month and encountered an older lady who was hunting for new property, Ramsey. She told me she was telling people she was moving from London to England. She was careful to ensure I didn't take her for a racist. She did protest against the religion mentioned on QT though not the individuals who follow it (much as Richard Dawkins, in his friendlier guise, does) and simply felt that what she understood to be a place she called home had become unrecognisable as such and she was hunting for it in the National Parks. Griffin spoke yesterday in terms that woman would recognise. I certainly don't support Griffin's views on race and so forth, but I certainly do think that to not recognise that some of what he's saying is something people ... recognise and strikes a chord with them, if one taken to an extreme ... is counterproductive and merely gives his argument greater force and himself credibility, if only on that one particular issue. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.251.240.100 |
"She did protest against the religion mentioned on QT" Why so circumlocutory, Mark? | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.74 |
Mark, did she by any chance say "I'm not a racist, but..."? Presumably one of the people whose presence in London she would find unwelcome, should she ever have met her, would be our son's partner, who is Anglo-Asian. By the way, there's no need to tiptoe around Islam here. I'm no particular defender of religions, and certainly don't feel they should be privileged over other systems of belief. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.240.106 |
Which part of London did this woman live in, Mark? In my 5 years living in different parts of London, I found the racial and cultural mix much the same as the other cities I've lived in, just on a grander scale (because it's a bigger city). Mark, did she by any chance say "I'm not a racist, but..."?  That's the classic line, isn't it? If I had a peny for how many times I've heard that...I'd, erm, have a canny few pennies, like. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.240.106 |
I believe that particular religion to be a woman-hating, homophibic and vile and treacherous construction, with its worshipers hailing and cruel and malicious deity. Phew...that's a broad generalisation, mate. I'm sure all Muslims aren't monsters. In fact, I know they aren't - I've met several. I find Islam just as intolerant as any other organised religion...and as open to abuse by fundamentalists. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.171.129.70 |
No, funnily enough, she didn't say 'I'm no racist, but...' I had been expecting it. But she didn't. I found her rather engaging and not the least bit prejudicial concerning skin colour. She spoke sadly about having to leave London to find England. Her 'experience/prejudice' of walking down streets where she couldn't speak the language and felt lost must have been a hard one for an elderly lady. Again, she didn't talk about border control or an influx or Enoch Powell. She sadly accepted a change she didn't like was occurring in London and it didn't feel like home or what she thought was England any more. She did express distrust of Islam, but added 'not that I've any truck with Christianity, not even at my age.' | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.251.168.183 |
"...simply felt that what she understood to be a place she called home had become unrecognisable as such..." "Presumably one of the people whose presence in London she would find unwelcome, should she ever have met her, would be our son's partner, who is Anglo-Asian." Nothing in what Mark said implied that the lady believed that only white people were welcome in the country. It seems to me that she's entitled to a reasonable expression of her feelings about the way her society has evolved. Feelings of discomfort about multiculturalism are clearly real and heartfelt and if not acknowledged and engaged with in an intelligent, constructive manner they fester into support for the likes ot the BNP. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.240.106 |
East London, I'd guess. But that hasn't been like Albert Square for 50 years, I'm afraid... | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.171.129.70 |
But that's not really my point. My point was that in amongst his anger and hateful twisted exagerations, Griffin dropped in lines that would've tallied with that lady's belief that she'd to leave London (and no, I've no idea what part of London she was from, Zed; I don't know London so didn't think to ask, as it wouldn't have meant anything to me) and others like her. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.240.106 |
I keep saying this all the time (and am often misunderstood): people are tribal by nature; it's instinct. We used to have clans, and protected our caves from outsiders. It's going to take a long time to overcome this human default position. All change is ugly and painful; these issues will never truly be overcome. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.240.106 |
I remember going to see a mortgage advisor when I lived in London. Barclays, near Baker Street. The (young) bloke told me that he hated giving mortgages to "blackies and Asians" because he thought London should be only for Londoners and not these foreigners. He then told me that he also considered me one of these foreigners, because I was from "Up Norf". I told him he was silly little cunt and walked out. He lived in Essex. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.171.129.70 |
I think Justin's right. It's the not debating the issue that's the problem. Like it or not, the BNP's support has risen - according to one pole - by 5% since Griffin's appearance on QT. My suggestion is that partly that is because more people feel able to express their views given the 'credibility' Griffin took from appearing on such a show and also because Jack Straw gave a politician's answer and not a straight one when confronted over the 'open doors policy' towards Eastern Europeans working here, refusing to say the government's guesstimates about the numbers was horrifically wrong. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.171.129.70 |
Zed, I've yet to meet a Christian or Muslim who doesn't think I'm going to some version of hell, however nice the follower of that particular religion is. And with that presupposition in someone's mind, it's impossible to be treated by them on an equal footing. May I suggest a browse of Martin Amis's book The Second Plane for a more articulate account on the subject of awfulness and its relationship with Islam and Islamism than I could manage (especially on a 1.5"keyboard). I was being a little careful, in all that circumlocution, to avoid being called Islamophobic, Justin. I think it's in danger of being used as the old 'racist' argument was used to stop people talking about immigration, acharge levelled at William Hague when he was Tory leader. Also, I wasn't a hundred per cent sure about where Ramsey stood on the issue, and it's his board and his wishes must be accepted and appreciated. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.171.129.70 |
Incidentally, people ARE complicated, and it's well to remember that. I used to work for a bloke who voted BNP. When he got married his Best Man was of course his best pal, who was (and still is, I'd imagine) black. It's not down to skin colour so much as the differing cultures, I suspect, that sends people to the BNP. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.251.230.160 |
Understood, Mark. Am I right in thinking that Amis specifically attacks Islamism rather than Islam? It's an important distinction. He certainly writes in a complimentary manner about Muhammad himself. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.171.129.70 |
By the way, Zed: not everyone from Essex is a racist: part of my girlfriend's family come from and live in Essex and they're black. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.251.230.160 |
But maybe they hate themselves? | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.171.129.70 |
Justin, Amis writes mainly about Islamism. He starts by talking about the species fear he began to feel in the aftermath of Sept 11th, what with W getting ready to invade anywhere he could get away with. But Amis does mix Islam and Islamism up intentionally in places. The essays were written in the heat of the times and I think he's been brave to let them be reprinted without editing. He was seriosuly rounded on at the time of their original publication. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.171.129.70 |
>But maybe they hate themselves? Oh, family, mate, you don't even want to go there... | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.240.106 |
By the way, Zed: not everyone from Essex is a racist: You completely missed my point there. I was using the anecdote to show that a lot of people in London (in my experience; not in a book or on telly) have this casually passive-aggressive and intolerant attitude towards outsiders...and I mentioned that the guy lived in Essex because it demonstartes that he isn't even a "Londoner". Indeed, the concept of a "Londoner" barely even exists anymore. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.240.106 |
ps - part of my girlfriend's family come from and live in Essex and they're black black people can be racist too, you know. | ||
| Gcw (Gcw) Username: Gcw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.170.202.57 |
I watched Question Time...Christ you could talk 'til Christmas on this subject and never agree, but for what they are worth, here are my key comments: - 1/ Yes, Nick Griffin should have been on the programme, you cannot deny his right to be there. Also, It was good because it has got the population actually talking about the festering sore of the subject of immigration. 2/ Nick Griffin blew it.His opinions were badly presented and farcical. He even failed to capitalise on Jack Straw's pathetic performance. 3/ Which leads me to the other members of the panel. If Griffin blew it, they didn't do much better, Straw's total failure to answer the question on whether Labours' 'policy' on immigration had contributed to the increased popularity of the BNP was an open opportunity for Griffin. Only the mans total incompetence, or the fact he was miles out of his depth stopped him from tearing Straw apart. The other panelists were equally as ineffective. Fascism needs to be beaten by reasoned argument, not sad little one-upmanships about what colour we all were in the ice age. All in all though, a good thing because as I said, it has got the country talking on a subject that has too long been ignored. gcw | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.171.129.74 |
> You completely missed my point there. Actually, I was being mischievous, because of that comment you made on my thoughts on Islam, matey. Should probably have put a smiley after it. My apologies. (Doing a lot of apologising on this board today.) | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.240.106 |
That's it - I'm gonna punch you. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.171.129.74 |
>not sad little one-upmanship about what colour we were in the ice age. That'd be blue, wouldn't it? Cos we were all so bloody cold. | ||
| Gcw (Gcw) Username: Gcw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.170.202.57 |
Blueism - I can't abide blue-ist people.. We cool Lynchy? gcw | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.171.129.74 |
Absolutely. Gonna email you this weekend, mate. | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 213.158.199.67 |
I used to be proud of the fact that we had one of the more better devised immigration policies in the world (as compared to other countries); now it seems that we want to take back what we offered because it doesn't quite fit in with how things have developed. Of course, it was never perfect, but better to be at fault for want of doing the right thing, than not doing anything for want of those who have yet to move forward. I'm sick of this self-congratulatory back-slapping in which we hold ourselves up as liberal, free-thinking progressive thinkers, when the most educated, self-proclaimed so-called (apologies for the compounds), 'normal' British folk prove yet again, that Griffin, and those that can acknowledge the rationality into perspective, feel insulted when accused of xenophobia, racism and whatever else happens to stir up the whole sordid brew. BTW: this is not aimed at anyone here... The ability to put words into a coherent sentence doesn't excuse any of them. The most terrible of racists, bigots, whatever banner they fly under these days, are the ones who thinks they aren't. Not those who can barely form a sentence, nor those who can and manage to swindle an hour of public television air-time. It's the informed that bothers me more. People place too much comfort in the fact that they are being led towards authentic awareness because the designated spokesperson can string together a handful of carefully orchestrated soundbytes. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 89.19.82.188 |
>But maybe they hate themselves? "Oh, family, mate, you don't even want to go there..." It was an allusion to Chris Rock, really. His bit about black people being more racist than whites because they hate white people and themselves. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.171.129.74 |
Sorry. Missed that. I'm afraid I'm not sure who Mr Rock is. Actually, I've been thinking about the 'I'm not racist, but...' thingy. I suspect a good number of people now feel they have to say as much at the start of any conversation, because of a dishonesty that stemmed from people like Alastair Campbell, who immediately suggested William Hague and others must be racist to question New Labour's immigration policies. Certainly it's hard to express concerns about multiculturalism without someone saying or implying you're a hateful person and dislike shades of skin tone. Which is course how Griffin and folk like him come to thrive. The latest poll suggests 22% of those asked about it could see themselves considering to vote BNP. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.131.110.25 |
Heh! 'All that stuff about bottom.' Four posts! Should we worry about the BNP? Not a single paper supports him, not even the Mail. That's a hurdle for any party. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.131.110.25 |
Zed - you should have complained about that estate agent. He could get done for that. I think loads of people are a bit racist but realise it's wrong and put it aside in themselves. I'm a bit nervous of 'people of colour', come over all embarrassed and stuff, and do feel them to be 'different'. But I've long realised it's my problem and am, yes, able to consider it as being something like a mole or limp I can't get rid of, so ignore or try to get over it. In fact I think I even overcompensate; BNP/right wing views send me into a fury. Maybe I need to be saying 'I'm a bit racist, but...' Mark! Maybe if there are problems with immigration we should turn it around into confronting countries the immigrants come from? Go to the roots of the problem? does it show i'm quite naive about these things? I care, but rarely look up from my movies and books...  | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.140.113 |
Tony, I appreciate your honesty. I think it's pretty normal to be unconfident with people whose culture is unknown to you: you don't know to what extent you and they are 'speaking the same language', as the nuances and implications are different. This is good, however: it helps us to be aware of our own cultural assumptions, and to lead to a broadening of horizons on both sides. Successive generations of immigrant origin are culturally different from the first one, and mixed-race people have a different cultural experience again. That's true of the many immigrant strands that have made up the UK population over the centuries – as Churchill said, we are a 'mongrel nation' and that is a great thing. In Birmingham a couple of years ago, a BNP activist called Sharon Ebanks was elected to the city council. Imagine her surprise when a bunch of Afro-Carribean people turned up at her office and said "Hi, we're your black relatives." It transpired that she was mixed-race in some proportion. She resigned from the council and, I think, from the BNP, in shame and humiliation. I'm very much in favour of the 'melting pot' model of multiculturalism whereby ethnic and cultural strands blend together – this not only causes our culture to grow and evolve, it's a good thing biologically and medically because it widens our genetic diversity (the more genetically 'pure' a community is, the worse its physical health tends to be). What is far more problematic is the 'separate development' model of multiculturalism whereby you have ghettoised monoethnic communities, faith schools and so on keeping ethnic communities apart. That kind of separatism needs to be peacefully and democratically challenged. Tony, you're also right that the lack of explicit media support (and just as importantly, the support of major sources of funding such as corporations or trade unions) limits the political potential of the BNP. However its current level of popularity and perceived credibility is extremely harmful, because it provides violent racists with a sense of legitimacy in their actions. Whenever the BNP wins any kind of political victory, racist hate crimes increase. This is because the BNP actually promotes violent racism within its own membership. Nick Griffin has written that "political power is the product of force and will, not of rational debate". That means that the street violence is essential to its long-term political strategy. In addition, the presence of the BNP helps to normalise any level of racism that falls short of theirs. "I'm not a BNP supporter, of course, but..." That's why the Mail and the Express, both hysterically anti-immigration and deeply xenophobic, constantly distance themselves from the BNP. In short, though there is little chance of a fascist party taking over the UK, the presence of a populist and highly visible racist pressure group on our streets and in our media is very harmful indeed. Harmful enough that it should be denied the democratic rights it is eager to take away from others. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.211.113 |
Joel, can you show me a case in history where a political party has successfully been banned out of existence? As I said previously, a media ban was a great boost to Sinn Fein. Why would you think it would have a better effect now? I think logical debate is the only way forward. If the BNP have done or said something illegal, then the law can be applied to them, as it can everyone else. | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 82.38.75.85 |
>>If the BNP have done or said something illegal, then the law can be applied to them, as it can everyone else.<< .. and that's what's happening at the moment as they're having to look at their constitution again as it's been deemed racist (which it is, of course). I didn't see QT myself, but I've been following this debate (on here and in the press) with interest. The scariest thing for me is that they ARE actually winning seats in some places. There is this section of completely disaffected people (mainly working-class whites, I guess?) who are starting to follow their ideals. That's worrying. While they've no chance of forming a government, or having any real influence, the street-level trouble which is currently brewing is, I feel, something we should all be concerned about. The segregation of different cultures which Joel talks about is a big problem here. I see this a lot in my home city of Bradford. This segregation is both self-imposed by the communities themselves, and encouraged by the council and other authorities in an effort to appear to be taking the views of different ethnic groups into account. It's a dangerous thing, as far as I can see. I agree with Joel that the "melting pot" approach is the one we need, so that we are all learning about each others' cultures and beliefs and living together as a TRUE multi-cultural society. Oh and as for whether Griffin should have been allowed to appear on the Beeb, well yes, in a democratic society like this I certainly feel he should have appeared. But the Beeb made a dreadful mistake in turning QT into a BNP-bashing event, and of course Griffin's making the most of this with his complaints which simply keep the BNP in the news for even longer. Free publicity for them. | ||
| Stephen Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 82.0.106.15 |
I'm with you Caroline. I fully supported the BBC's decision to allow Griffin on the show (and still think they were right to) but was dismayed at the form the programme took. They changed the regular format into an all out attack on one panel member which was shockingly short-sighted and just plain stupid of them. Very disappointing of the Beeb... Did you know that the BNP are actually starting to make political inroads over here in working class Unionist areas of Northern Ireland. Their rhetoric goes something along the lines of "get the Irish out of Britain". Most helpful of them...  | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 89.19.82.206 |
Hear, hear to both of the above posts. "Did you know that the BNP are actually starting to make political inroads over here in working class Unionist areas of Northern Ireland. Their rhetoric goes something along the lines of "get the Irish out of Britain". Most helpful of them..." It's worth noting that Britain has already elected a prime minister who evoked Cromwell and proposed that Irish Catholics be forcibly removed from Northern Ireland: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2001/jun/16/northernireland.catholicism Why wasn't the Conservative party banned from the media? | ||
| Stephen Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 82.0.106.15 |
It just goes to show that even Prime Ministers (though thankfully not their advisers!) aren't above fascist knee-jerk reactions in the face of extreme provocation. But then there's no such thing as society so the mass expulsion of an entire population would have been a breeze. The woman was clearly a raving lunatic!! | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 82.38.75.85 |
Bloody hell, I always knew Thatcher was a nut-case, but that's amazing! By the way, I've got quite a bit of Irish interest myself. I'm a UK atheist married to an Irish Catholic (Eire, that is). One of my sisters-in-law is S. Irish Catholic married to another Catholic from N. Ireland. It all gets a bit complex, but they're a great family! What you say here, Stephen, is very scary and just goes to show that the BNP's main interest is simply in stirring up trouble where ever they can: >>Did you know that the BNP are actually starting to make political inroads over here in working class Unionist areas of Northern Ireland. Their rhetoric goes something along the lines of "get the Irish out of Britain". Most helpful of them... << | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.193.180 |
"Bloody hell, I always knew Thatcher was a nut-case, but that's amazing!" Yeah, just three prime ministers ago, Britain's leader proposed ethnic cleansing. Thatcher was PM when "Have I Got News for You" started. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.240.106 |
Certainly it's hard to express concerns about multiculturalism without someone saying or implying you're a hateful person and dislike shades of skin tone. I was just discussing this with my buddy Bestwick - yes, it's a big problem getting beyond people's knee-jerk reactions. | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 213.158.199.88 |
Mark - I hope you don't think that I was implying you were one of the people I was talking about in my part of the thread. I understand completely what you said about people finding they have to explain themselves just to establish themselves as not being racist. In a way, rather dubiously, this is a good thing, or halfway there; better that people want to establish that they are not racist, than not caring whether they are perceived as such. BUT, this also may mean that the response is programed and not instinctively natural, and therefore a redundant offering. I was in actual fact referring to people I encountered in the university system, the last place I rather naively considered not to encounter such views. I had several occasions to engage with people who claimed they weren't racist, that they found it repulsive and illogical, yet their views on immigration seemed to straddle a viewpoint which reeked of it. It was a contradiction I couldn't quite fathom, or perhaps I didn't want to. Their argument seemed to lie within a self-determined belief that I was ignorant and simply lying to myself, that I was without any true understanding of the real problems posed by mass immigration. Regardless of how I approached the subject it always came down them being realistic while I was not. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.205.142 |
"Regardless of how I approached the subject it always came down them being realistic while I was not." That last point is very penetrating, Frank, and it goes far beyond this subject. The most common tactic in a debate is now to attack someone as being naive. Someone just has to say they're being pragmatic and realistic to be untouchable. Environmentalists and anti-capitalists can now say however, that free-marketeers are the ones living in a glittery land of clouds and moonbeams. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.171.129.68 |
Fran - no fear. I hadn't thought that at all. I do think for awhile the only person who figured out what I was trying to get across was Justin, though. Primarily that the argument is the important thing and not the individuals making it. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
"Environmentalists and anti-capitalists can now say however, that free-marketeers are the ones living in a glittery land of clouds and moonbeams." We all need to say that and know it. Thirty years of Thatcherism is far more than enough. | ||
| Stephen Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
I couldn't agree more!! The days of the "I'm alright Jack and fuck the rest" mentality are well and truly over. Has ever the sound of a bubble bursting echoed more forcibly around the world? Time to give good old-fashioned socialism and the sense of a shared community spirit another go only this time hopefully not at the expense of another World War!! Capitalism (nevermind Thatcherism) as it existed is a failed experiment. The next "-ism" has to embrace that fact or we are in danger of joining the dinosaurs as one of nature's more interesting dead ends. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.47 |
"According to whose experience, Mark? The people violently deported because the Home Office decided they hadn't been tortured enough in the countries they were trying to escape from? The people held in our detention centres for months on end while we try to decide whether they deserve our night shifts and non-unionised McJobs? Or the people living with communities of drunken English expatriate thugs in Spain, Majorca and other countries around the world? Immigration is only 'the key issue' for the stupid, the deluded and readers of the Daily Mail." So obviously every single asylum seeker in this country is here legitimately Joel? There are no problems whatsoever associated with immigration? Is that really your opinion? A friend of mine is living with his wife and two young children with his inlaws as they have been on the waiting list for a council house for five years. As the children get older, that house is getting more and more cramped and relationships very strained. Explain to him that asylum seekers are not an issue when people who have not been in the country for 5 years have council houses given to them. Tell him he's stupid, deluded and a daily mail reader. Case in point, in the area where he most wants to get a house, a policeman was stabbed to death a couple of years ago. The policeman was stabbed in a raid on a ricin factory. The man who stabbed the policeman was an asylum seeker who had actually been refused permission to live here but was appealing the verdict. While on appeal, he and his friends were given a council house in an area where council housing is at a premium. So not only had he been in the country for less time than my friend had been on the waiting list, he'd been refused permission to stay here and was a terrorist to boot, and actually went on to murder a policeman. Obviously I'm not suggesting that all asylum seekers are terrorists, but my friend is entitled to be angry when people like that are fast-tracked and given houses while honest, struggling families like his are constantly knocked back. Not every asylum seeker deserves to be allowed to stay here. it's foolish in the extreme to say that they do. Sometimes if they're facing imprisonment in their homelands, there may be a good reason for it. We have enough criminals in this country without importing more in the name of multi-culturalism. Immigration is a genuine issue and to be told we're stupid deluded Mail readers if we actually take off the rose-tinted specs is an insult. Yes, I agree that the majority of immigrants are good for the country, but the issue is with the handling of the minority who are not here for their own good or the good of our country. | ||
| Stephen Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
Weber's back!! | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.47 |
I wish I'd been in the QT audience. When Nick Griffin started on the extremist bits of the Quran I would have quoted the bible at him. Kings 2 Chapter 2 - vs 23 + 24 to be precise 23: And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. 24: And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them. | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 213.158.199.88 |
Weber - mate, your friend has a right to be angry like anyone has a right to be angry. But highlighting this case means all cases not involving immigrants also need to be addressed. To spotlight means we will again, yes, again, give people reasons to target out of frustration, which in turn will turn into hate. We can find a thousand examples of the terrible incident you mentioned, and ethnic or national background does not excuse any act of violence, and I agree with your defense and stance of positivity towards immigration as you clearly outlined in your post, but this is exactly the kind of thing that the Daily Mail (and I'm not being condescending, honestly), do indeed use to spear-head their usual campaigns. My Uncle who came from the West Indies was invited here at the behest of the British government in the 1950's to fill up the vast space of potential employment. When jobs became scarce he was made redundant, forced to live in what was essentially a ghetto, Toxteth, and victimized with constant racial abuse by the police. Yet he never resorted to violence, never sort answers through aggressive posturing, but tried to live his life as calmly and as peacefully as possible. He was not alone in adopting this attitude, there were thousands of West Indian immigrants like him. Yet to this day Toxteth is lodged firmly in the British pysche as a no-go area full of crime and drugs, never having truly recovered from that period. What I'm saying in my typical rambling way, is that there are many law-abiding immigrants here, some more respective of our laws and cultural attitudes than others. I don't recall seeing too many immigrants smashing up town centres every weekend last time I was home. This is not me having a pop at you, mate, I understand what you're saying, and you do approach this from two perspectives, just that we can't isolate incidents, no matter how awful they are. | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 80.47.23.139 |
The days of the "I'm alright Jack and fuck the rest" mentality are well and truly over. Has '....ever the sound of a bubble bursting echoed more forcibly around the world? Time to give good old-fashioned socialism and the sense of a shared community spirit another go only this time hopefully not at the expense of another World War!!' Very well said. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
The thing is, the "I'm alright Jack and fuck the rest" mentality is still in evidence. Banks still giving their fatcats big bonuses, the UK still being in recession (one of the only countries not coming out of it) despite all the public money pissed against the wall...everything's exactly the same. People will never, ever change. I guarantee it. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.255.199 |
"People will never, ever change. I guarantee it." You're demonstrably wrong on this one, Zed. We may be dealing with the same palette of genetic instincts, but the pictures we can paint with them are infinite. Human beings are not just their DNA, they're the environment in which they operate, and that is infinitely malleable. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
I'll rephrase it, then: in my experience, human beings never change. I wish I could be proven wrong. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
Sigh. I'm feeling as low as a worm's fanny today.  | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.74 |
"So obviously every single asylum seeker in this country is here legitimately Joel? There are no problems whatsoever associated with immigration? Is that really your opinion?" That isn't what he said, or remotely like it either. | ||
| Karim Ghahwagi (Karim) Username: Karim Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.10.20.129 |
'I'm feeling as low as a worm's fanny today'- Zed a cheer-up for ye:  | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 147.252.230.126 |
"I'll rephrase it, then: in my experience, human beings never change. I wish I could be proven wrong." I just thought of the perfect tag line for THE FLY: "Who says people can't change?" | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.47 |
That isn't what he said, or remotely like it either. No he said that immigration is only an issue if you're stupid, deluded or a daily mail reader. That's close enough. There are clear issues regarding immigration and to say that does not mean I'm stupid or deluded, a daily mail reader or racist. It means I'm not wearing the same pair of rose tinted specs that Joel appears to be wearing. A couple of years ago I was visiting a friend in Hulme when I was approached by a large gang of asian youths who told me in no uncertain terms that I wasn't welcome walking down this particular street because I was white and that if I didn't get the fuck out of there now, I was going to have the shit kicked out of me. It was one the most frightening experiences I've ever had. I was told by some of my St John colleagues that when they were providing first aid for a street festival close to that area, after one hour they all needed to be escorted away with a police escort for their own safety - because they were white. Luckily for me I don't live close enough to that area (and indeed I now steer well clear) but if I did, then immigration and race would be a key issue for me. I repeat what I said earlier that I believe that immigration is mostly good for the country - but to ignore the down-side is not a sensible thing to do. It sounds like I'm concentrated more on the downside than the positive but I'm just trying to make a point. I do normally look on the good side of this issue, but I feel I need to make a stand when anyone who says it's not all good must be a stupid deluded daily mail reader. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
I just thought of the perfect tag line for THE FLY: "Who says people can't change?" You just cheered me up, Proto. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.74 |
"No he said that immigration is only an issue if you're stupid, deluded or a daily mail reader. That's close enough." Marc, he said (and you quoted him as saying): "Immigration is only 'the key issue' for the stupid, the deluded and readers of the Daily Mail." The key issue, not an issue. The emphasis is crucial. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.47 |
If I lived in that part of Hulme where I was threatened for the colour of my skin, it would be a Key issue for me. Everyone has a right to be angry if threatened over the colour of their skin. Whites included. If you can't walk round the street of your home town for fear of that type of threat, it's a key issue. I'm just trying to point out that Joels comment is an insult to anyone who lives in that type of situation. | ||
| Gcw (Gcw) Username: Gcw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.170.206.92 |
Sorry to butt in but.... Weber, read it again, 'Key issue' is crucial as RC says. I actually agree with what you are saying, immigration IS an issue and should be addressed, (I critcised Jack Straws pathetic avoidance of this about a zillion posts back). if I read it correctly .. "Immigration is only 'the key issue' for the stupid, the deluded and readers of the Daily Mail." Refers to people (such as Nick Griffin) who consider immigration (& race) to be the only points & problems worth persuing. Please correct me if I am mistaken. gcw |