| Author | Message | ||
     Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.170.180.151 |
I've just been on holiday and during that time a friend put a ouija board together. I've not used one before and never had results, and to be honest this time wasn't much different, apart from two or three things, the main being that for a spell I was using the little egg cup we had instead of a glass on my own; I tried my darndest NOT to move it but it did, and quite steadily. It was terrifying, like someone was holding a magnet under the table. A lot of people have nay-sayed it since and have probably taken this amazing experience from me, but something definitely lingers with me that something 'happened'. I'm not sure we 'reached' anyone exacylt, but there was a distinct sense of reaching something frail and sad, something gone mad with not having lived for so long. It felt like we were talking to someone who had forgotten itself, had alzheimers or something. I came away feeling frightened that there was existence after death but that it wasn't a great time for the undead, that they were lonely and perhaps even mad. I'm sure something happened - I just don't know what.  | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
I came away feeling frightened that there was existence after death but that it wasn't a great time for the undead, that they were lonely and perhaps even mad. That's terrifying, Tony... | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
It also fits in at least with my own fictional view of the Afterlife, where the dead are even more lonely and confused than the living... | ||
| Stephen Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
Like most people I messed about with ouija boards with my friends as a teenager and never really got anything out of it except a bad case of the giggles. Thing is (like Mulder) I wanted desperately to believe the experiment would work and always went in with the utmost seriousness but once one person starts mucking around (no matter how nervously) then the smiling and laughter becomes contagious. However, I do believe completely in psychic phenomena as I experience it regularly in the form of strangely prophetic dreams and flashes of everyday clairvoyance (meaningful coincidence?) usually of the most banal nature imaginable. I have also been reading Tarot cards since childhood and, though I don't know how it works, I am damn good at it - even scaring myself sometimes! | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
That's beautifully expressed, Tony. I was in a psychical research society at university and we had several ouija board sessions, never with any significant result. Like most psychical phenomena, I think, it provides an outlet for the subconscious emotions of the (living) participants in ways that they have not contrived and may not realise. But you read it your way and I'll read it mine! Interesting to consider that Derek Akorah almost certainly had experiences like this at one time. But then being a 'psychic sensitive' became his job, and faking it took over as being a more reliable strategy. Rather like a porn star: because you fake orgasms on film doesn't mean you don't ever have them, just that that they probably won't happen when the camera is running. (Apologies for lowering the tone of this thread.) | ||
| Stephen Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
In my experience all manifestations of psychic phenomena come from within and I have found no evidence of outside disembodied "spirits". Believing in an infinite universe means they should be there but not necessarily that we should be able to detect or interact with them. I do know this: during a card reading there appears to be a very real and potent energy that develops between the two people that allows the interpreter to make sense of the apparently random patterns dealt out in the cards. Ability to judge people and read body language always comes into play but there is also something else at work... something that seems to "know" just when to throw up Death, The Lovers, The Devil, or any other card and that tells me what to say - and that's the part that both fascinates and frightens the shit out of me at times. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.239.0 |
I've always thought the flaw in Tarot cards was the limited nature of the pack: if you need three or four or five Sun Cards to adequately express the situation of the querent, it's impossible to do so, unless you have multiple packs... but what if you need 15 Death Cards to express it?... Back to Ouija: I've tried it in the past, and I firmly believe, Tony, that something "inexplicable" is going on there - it may be one of the few testable phenomena that there is not an adequate explanation for yet, even if it does all simply go back to the power of the mind - or has the scientific community weighed in on their own settled conclusions? If not, why not? An interesting question itself.... that they were lonely and perhaps even mad - very disturbing, especially if you mean "mad" as in bonkers. Prominent Christian thinkers I've heard often say: Why would life even be worth living, if there were nothing "out there"? Well, the giant civilizations of Greeks and Romans went through life assured you'd end up being in a kind of "Hell" no matter what; from where a giant like Achilles laments, it's better to be a lowly slave on Earth anywhere rather than there... but somehow all those Greeks and Romans got through the day, for centuries on end.... | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.131.109.69 |
People have said to me that the boards don't work with the eyes covered; this one seemed to. Another odd thing; we'd ask yes or no questions and the board kept going to 'I'. Now none of us are typical geordies or northerners and certainly don't use 'Aye' for yes, but this character kept doing it. It took us a while to click on (realise) about that and it made us shiver when we did. I don't believe Derren Brown in that it all just comes from us. A horse rides on it's own and with riders, both results being the same. And of course the hand helps it move - it's like saying a bird is cheating by using it's wings to flap. The tarot work, certainly; I took them on holiday last year 'for fun' and the reading I gave for my completely skeptical wife made her break down in tears with its accuracy. Another quietly frightening experience. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.131.109.69 |
This 'boy' seemed to come onto the board. He was young, he suggested, and 'was thinking about his brother', whose name began with P (it went to this again and again). He seemed slow and frail and confused. We had with us in a nearby caravan a friend called Peter whose brother had died very young, and had been quite mean to him. I refused to ask the board direct questions, like 'are you our friend's brother?' and it was never clarified. I came away with the aforementioned feelings of lost beings, about as strong as smoke or mist, their memories barely there. Sadness was my biggest response, I think, as well as the feeling we'd used these poor beings, made them realise with horror that they were gone... | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.239.0 |
Whether these things "work" or not, is definitional. It might be that the tarot "worked" to help your wife see, what she couldn't see without their help. Riffing on your analogies, Tony: eyeglasses don't impart sight, they merely enable you to see more clearly. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.131.109.69 |
You know, I agree with what you say about the tarot, but really, it was SO specific. They might as well have been drawings of her. And again, isn't our interpretation of it how it works? | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.239.0 |
I'd agree, that if the Tarot alone can "reveal" something, then it bridges the gap. As it is, I think the "mind" alone is the most inexplicable yet tangible element in this Universe: we can never pinpoint it, yet it IS THE UNIVERSE, since we are all nothing but mind-sensations. So, if "the other" were to enter "our" world - wouldn't it be through the doorway of the mind?... Which is why there is something to the Ouija board - it is almost a bridge between mind and "out there".... But careful, because the mind is capable of amazing, inexplicable constructions all on its own. Every night we dream things we never imagined, never saw, never would have ever come up with awake... and yet, the mind cannot also create a child, speaking, through the illusion of a man-made spirit device?... | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.131.109.69 |
You're right. I also think the made-up ghosts we somehow 'create' perhaps have a kind of life - the 'tulpa' life. Now there's a movie - someone finding out they're a tulpa... I've been researching the ouija board. There's one on sale being advertised as being able to enable you to speak to yourself, your unconscious mind. It has helped people write books and essays, get on better with their lives. It also operates as a straight ouija. Is this the key, then, this close proximity between ourselves and the dead, do we interlock with them to that extent? Maybe we do. This stuff is fascinating, I must say. | ||
| Stephen Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
Tony, try doing Tarot readings for complete strangers and hear your own voice tell these people things about their most private innermost lives and emotions, without any way of knowing, and then talk about "quietly frightening". I think you may have what it takes but never nurtured it (whatever it is). I actively sought out the Tarot from an age before I even knew what a fraction of the symbolism is about and now seem to just know what each card represents in each specific reading. As for needing 15 Deaths or 12 Suns... the wealth of symbolism in the 78 card Tarot deck (one MUST use the minor as well as the major arcana) is more than enough to cover every human experience it is imaginable to have - and a lot else besides. Think of the infinitude of different games of chess it is possible to have with only 32 pieces (and 6 types) and then look again at the Tarot deck... | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.240.94 |
Don't get me wrong, I love the Tarot. It's a world-view/philosophy (one could almost say religious system of beliefs) that's totally visual - I mean, it's a comprehensive, insightful, profoundly deep, and all-encompassing "philosophy" captured in pictures/symbols. I don't think the enormity of this basic fact has ever quite caught on adequately enough. You could teach a University seminar in "Tarot" and have more material than you'd ever have time to get to.... | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 147.252.230.126 |
It's all speaking with ourselves isn't it? Maybe the board allows us to speak to our dead selves. | ||
| Stephen Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
And the Tarot (or any form of divination) is simply a way of opening a conduit between two minds via the common "stuff" of the universal consciousness of which we are all part. C.G. Jung was so right.. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 147.252.230.126 |
"Maybe the board allows us to speak to our dead selves." I orginally meant ouija board, but... | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 82.38.75.85 |
Right, excuse me for being skeptical here but: >>The tarot work, certainly; I took them on holiday last year 'for fun' and the reading I gave for my completely skeptical wife made her break down in tears with its accuracy. Another quietly frightening experience.<< But surely, Tony, you KNOW all these things about your wife anyway - if this is to do with what has happened in the past (otherwise you wouldn't know about its accuracy) - so I'm a little at a loss as to how this proves anything? Nevertheless, I do have an open mind on all these kinds of things - I just think that none of them can be either proven or disproven. But I have had some psychic and paranormal kinds of experiences myself, and I do believe there is something there which we've no way of understanding (and probably never will). With regard to the sadness (and madness) you felt in the possible spirits you contacted, Tony, bear in mind that the theory is that those that are easiest contacted are those that are still closest to our own "plane of existance", or what ever you want to call it. So that means that those you've contacted are most likely to have died young, or suddenly without mental preparation, and so on. Hence, the sense of loss, sadness, etc. So perhaps people who are more "prepared" for death, and more at peace when the time comes, are more accepting of what ever happens to them afterwards? That's my take on it anyway. If it is actually real - which we could debate till the cows come home ... (BTW I'm not at all religious, and definitely don't believe in the heaven/hell concept, though I do think something happens to our "spirits" when we die) | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 82.38.75.85 |
>>"Maybe the board allows us to speak to our dead selves." I orginally meant ouija board, but...<< That made me chuckle. Now, we need a message board which enables us to speak with our dead selves. Hey, there must be a story there somewhere ... | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.131.109.69 |
Caroline - all I did was read out the meanings of the cards from the little book. I did no interpreting; I just saw, with her, that they were 'right'. | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 82.38.75.85 |
Ah, right, I'm with you now Tony. I've never had my Tarot done, nor done any readings (wouldn't know how to), so I've no idea how you go about it. But that makes sense to me now you've explained that.  | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.5.230 |
Now this is creepy - this sale appeared today!  (note the "based on Hasbro's supernatural game") --------------- Title: OUIJA Logline: Centers on the supernatural effects of the Ouija board game. Writer: Edward Kitsis Adam Horowitz Agency: WME Entertainment WME Entertainment Studio: Universal Pictures Prod. Co: Platinum Dunes Hasbro Studios Genre: Supernatural Action Adventure Logged: 11/2/2009 More: To be based on Hasbro's supernatural game. Platinum Dunes’ Michael Bay, Brad Fuller & Andrew Form and Hasbro's Brian Goldner & Bennett Schneir will produce. Universal's Scott Bernstein and Franklin Leonard will oversee. First announced in May 2008. | ||
| Stephen Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
I well remember the days of looking up the wee book in my teens Tony. With practice the book is soon forgotten and the cards begin to speak for themselves inside your mind (as it were). I use three decks: Aleister Crowley's awesome Thoth deck (1938-47) which in many ways marked the culmination of his life's "work" and that he never lived to see published. The A.E. Waite deck (1909) which I've had since I was 12 and is the best deck for beginners as the symbolism is so clear-cut. And a beautiful reproduction of one of the oldest mediaeval packs that still exists - the Visconti-Sforza deck (15th C.). | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.7.209 |
Flip me over a card Stephen. And only give me the positive parts of the reading - I don't need no negatives right now. ... surely distance doesn't hamper the power of the Tarot?... | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
I prefer the Anton deck, which derives historically from the North of England. | ||
| Adriana (Adriana) Username: Adriana Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.231.152.180 |
golly gee. | ||
| Adriana (Adriana) Username: Adriana Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.231.152.180 |
I've had only one experience with a Ouija board, but it was enough to keep me from ever doing it again. I was young. Maybe like 9 or 10? I'd never heard of them - but two girls across the street had one, and they invited me to use it with them. They explained that you could use it to talk to the dead, which I thought that was ridiculous. Then they told me to put two fingers from each hand on the planchette. I looked down at our six smallish hands, and waited. The older of the two girls said that we should push it to give it a start, but that after a few rounds of the figure 8, it would start moving on its own... Right, ok, whatever. But I went along with it. Then they started asking questions, most of which I thought were inappropriate. Things about boys in their class. Then they started asking other kinds of questions. Questions about the spirit who was answering -- and invited me to ask also. The answers we got were mostly mundane. Just little details about some guy whose name I no longer remember. Anyway, after some time of playing what I though was kind of a silly game - considering it was clear that the girls were giving the answers, I told them so. At which point they both looked at one another - asked if the other was pushing - and when both promised that they weren't, told me I must be. (Seemed that they'd played it many times before, and indeed had always pushed, but this case were not.) The whole time this conversation was happening, the planchette continued to move in the figure 8. I remember applying no pressure, and almost having trouble keeping up with it. To prove that none of us were pushing, we decided to all remove our hands at the same time. I remember them telling me that it was very important that we did it AT THE SAME TIME, as normally if one person pulls away during a session, they risk possession. In this case, we hoped that with three at the same time, the spirit would be unable to enter any of us. So anyway, 1, 2, 3, we all let go - and I swear, that bloody planchette continued to trace figure 8s for a couple more rotations before finally flying off the board. The three of us ran out of the house. Onto the sunny street. None of us wanting to return to the house. Luckily, I had my own home to seek refuge in. And that night when I told my mom about it, she told me NEVER to play again. To this day the bloody things freak me out. And it weirds me out to see that they sell them at places like TOYS R US. | ||
| Adriana (Adriana) Username: Adriana Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.231.152.180 |
I should say that I consider that experience as sort of the beginning of something in my life. After that it was like a door had opened, and so many other experiences flooded through. I often think back to it, and wonder if something did in fact stay with me when I pulled my hands away. Mostly I know that's silly. But I still wonder. | ||
| Adriana (Adriana) Username: Adriana Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.231.152.180 |
On the other hand, looking back something else occurs to me - if it's true that up until that game, the girls really did think it was just a game - one to scare other (unsuspecting) kids like me. Then that would make me the factor that was different in the equation - in which case, maybe that spirit was already with me... Yikes. Would explain some things though. | ||
| Adriana (Adriana) Username: Adriana Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.231.152.180 |
"Rather like a porn star: because you fake orgasms on film doesn't mean you don't ever have them, just that that they probably won't happen when the camera is running." I love that - thank you, Joel! | ||
| Adriana (Adriana) Username: Adriana Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.231.152.180 |
Tony, as usual, you've got my mind spinning... in a good way. | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.197.235 |
Hi, Adriana! I bought an old antique Ouija board years ago, but I never could find anyone to try using it with me. I've got a little Ouija keyring somewhere too (it glows in the dark). | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.1.11 |
A! Where have you been? You've been missed. I wish I had that experience with a Ouija board. How we tested it, was (I only used it with one other person at a time) we would each lift our fingers off at random, unspecified times. Unless I imagined it, the moment I or he lifted the finger away - bam, it stopped. No way to do this if one is pushing it - how to predict when the other will life his finger?... Still, I remember, of all things, just plain old getting bored with it! It just kept speaking jabberish, and making no cumulative sense (the individual words made sense, but the contexts, etc., no). | ||
| Stephen Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 82.0.106.15 |
Okay Craig, I flipped over one card for you and got the Page of Cups. Sorry, but that means you're doomed mate...  Look it up for yourself.  | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.229.4 |
DOOOMED, doomed, or just... sorta... lotsa good stuff with a light serving of doom on the side? 'Cause I'll take that, if so. Was it upside down or downside up? So much depends on that. | ||
| Stephen Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 82.0.106.15 |
Pretty much doomed I'm afraid but on the bright side you'll meet a tall dark handsome stranger first... hang on, he's carrying something long and hooked - nah, you're fucked. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.131.109.69 |
ADRIANA!!!!!! My God but I've missed you! (quivering, typing with shakey hands) I forgot how completely in tune with my stuff you are. It's beautiful. Why the f**k did you go? Maybe I understand; it eats your life up, this place, sometimes. That story was great; no-one understands, do they, that this thing IS moving? These events make us a little alone, move us an inch or two away from those we know and love. Sometimes, if you're lucky, it brings you a little closer - Marie 'got' it, believed it, and she was an utter skeptic before. If I pay you will you read my book? Seriously - I can do that, and I'd prize your views over anyone's. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.131.109.69 |
Was that slightly embarrassing? | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.131.109.69 |
BTW we have come to realise we've lost lots of things since the ouija. I know it's coincidence, but the sense still haunts you that it's connected, and it's that that matters, echoing through your days like the peal of a bell. | ||
| Stephen Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
Huw, I've never tried but it's not unheard of to consult the ouija on your own. There is a fascinating sequence early on in Graham Greene's 'Brighton Rock' in which the indomitable Ida consults a ouija board by herself to find the "truth" behind the first murder. The resulting message is weirdly ambiguous and for me haunts the rest of the book. Also wasn't that how Regan got into all the trouble in 'The Exorcist' - chatting to Captain Howdy. Hi Adriana, your story gave me the chills - thanks! I may just give it a go... TOYS R US you say! | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.23.233.247 |
R U in the US? The ouija is fascinating. Did you know it drove a town wild in America and they had to ban it? This was in the thirties, I think. Also, the creator of Alcoholics Anonymous got the thirteen steps from the board. Sylivia Plath and Hughesy used to use it and it 'foretold' her fate. Maybe she did herself - fascinating nonetheless. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.23.233.247 |
A - your story is a short story. It needs little revision. | ||
| Stephen Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
Hi Tony, I live in Ireland. All this talk has put me in the mood to give the ouija another go. I'm very open minded about these things and can see the ouija as a method of channelling the minds subconscious energies to the universal wavelength - putting us in touch with knowledge beyond the individual but part of the whole. I think to avoid the dangers of "messing" with these forces one has to have a fixed idea of one's place in the grand scheme of things and a genuine thirst for knowledge rather than idle entertainment. I think I'll look into getting myself a good set online. If I suddenly disappear off here one day you'll know Pazuzu must have got me... | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.131.109.69 |
I don't think they'll be in toys r us in Ireland - I think they're banned in the UK, so the same rules might apply there. This is the one I got; it's in the big picture at the bottom. I feel scared already. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=310176028039 | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.131.109.69 |
I read a great ouija board tale the other day. I forget the details apart from one; that this shop owner kept getting this old wooden planchette returned by frightened customers, and that at night him and his wife would hear it moving around in the shop. Bunk, probably, but good bunk. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.131.109.69 |
This is cheap - and looks pretty good - http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/OUIJA-BOARD-SPIRITBOARD-PAGAN-WICCAN-PLANCHETTE-NEW_W0QQit emZ280418210900QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Metaphysical_New_Age?hash=item414a3a5454 | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 147.252.230.126 |
"banned in the UK" REALLY? That's incredible. I'm speechless. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 147.252.230.126 |
Here's an idea for an extreme Asian horror flick - a bored Japanese CEO keeps a man in a dungeon, someimtes feeding him, sometimes cleaning his waste products, sometimes being cruel to him. A human tamagotchi. Brr. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.131.109.69 |
The most successful one he's had so far... | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.255.141 |
Interesting tid-bit from Wikipedia.... "THE PENN & TELLER: BULLSHIT! episode on Ouija Boards ran an experiment using unbiased participants. Questions were being asked to the late William Frawley [Fred Mertz from "I Love Lucy"] with very strong answers. The participants were then blindfolded and the board was turned 180 degrees without their knowledge. With continued questioning, the planchette then traveled to bare areas of the board where the participants (potentially spirits or the human mediums) believed the "Yes" and "No" marks were located...." | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.131.109.69 |
But there's an argument the spooks need our eyes. A thin argument, I suppose; I mean, why should they? But is being a spook using a board tricky? If it's shit, why have so many interesting and diverse things happened surrounding it? I'm beginning to wish I'd never seen one. | ||
| Adriana (Adriana) Username: Adriana Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.231.152.180 |
Tony - reading your work is not something I'd pass up. My time is limited, but if you're not in a rush, I'd be honored to give your book a pass. I couldn't charge you. But by that token, I also couldn't invest copy editing time. Would be strictly feedback, if you're cool with that. Of course it would suck not to be able to give it to you in person... (Shucks, I do really miss all of you.) Will respond more to the this thread later. Have to run to a meeting... | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.131.109.69 |
A - it's on it's way! Tell Donald to pop by - I know he's wary, but a hi would be great. You two are like such stars to me. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.255.141 |
But there's an argument the spooks need our eyes. A thin argument, I suppose; I mean, why should they? Tony, you've reminded me of an interesting idea I heard from writer/thinker Dinesh D'Souza on the radio the other day - he's just written a book called LIFE AFTER DEATH: THE EVIDENCE - and whatever you think of the subject, the guy's not a crackpot, he's extremely intelligent and articulate at least. His ability to speak alone made me consider wanting to read this.... But anyway, he had an intriguing counter-argument to those who say there is nothing beyond the mind - that mind and brain ARE one, and proof of this is that if you damage the brain, then the mind tends to go along with it - so surely, without brain, mind is but naught as well?... hence, nothing survives the death of brain/body?... But his counter-analogy, is - what if the brain were more like a radio transmitter? If it's damaged, then, it cannot "receive" whatever it is we call the mind, which is whatever it is we call life. You don't just disbelieve in the internet, because your computer's down.... Clever. But one must always be very wary of analogy arguments, they are not evidence. | ||
| Stephen Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
I don't see it as the "spooks" needing our eyes but of our minds subconsciously and/or psychically creating what happens on the board. As with the Tarot that does not necessarily imply whatever knowledge is gained has been made up from the limited information held in the minds participating. I have somehow known deeply personal hidden things about complete strangers (as well as friends and partners) from a card reading on innumerable occasions so I'm actually talking from experience here. I believe Jung was really onto something with his idea of the collective unconscious and the theory chimes nicely with my own philosophy of an infinite universe in which we are all equal parts of the whole (a harmonious hive mind if you like) and able to tap into that infinitude of knowledge by training the mind and, if you like, the soul/spirit/chi or whatever... Tools like the ouija, the Tarot and magical rituals in general are all ways of opening the doors of perception to our real place and worth in the universe. That's my theory anyway... | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.9.102 |
I like how that Wikipedia article - hardly definitive on the subject, mind, but still - how it covered the "scientific" argument against the Ouija by arguing the "subconscious" - a thoroughly non-scientific concept invented by Freud, and that we take nowadays as a priori, when it's most definitely not. If there's something to the "subconscious" then there is something to the Ouija, with equal weight. But if the "subconscious" is the catch-all term for patterns of consciousness and "detection" so miniscule and intricate, they'd defy all possible measurement by any scientific means, but still remain perfectly explainable - just as, when you roll a die, if you could get down to the mini-physics level and were able to measure all factors, you'd see that of COURSE the number 5 could only ever come up with that particular throw.... This is all to say, Stephen: perhaps your knowing "deeply personal hidden things about complete strangers" is no more than your mind's ability to light-speed pick up on patterns that could never be detected by the eye? Or clues that are locked in the mind so deep, you couldn't willingly pull them forth, but can under such a "reading"? That you are Poirot/Holmes x10 to the power of 10 during these brief reading sessions? | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.131.109.69 |
Maybe it's like the 'two slit' thing I heard about; observed atoms acting differently to ones recorded. I'm not sure how it goes, but there's this scientific test in which scrutiny affects the behaviour of the universe. Maybe the universe/God DOES hide his magic. Oh, listen to me. But that test is true (though surely to be debunked sometime soon), Hey - there was a thing in the news today about a machine being developed that can turn brainwaves into images i.e. a thing that will 'film' our thoughts and translate them into images. That scares the fuck out of me. | ||
| Stephen Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
If that machine ever becomes a reality the very next step would be the formulation of a Thought Police - terrifying. Craig, I don't want to give the impression I have startling results every time but frequently enough to have convinced me something paranormal is definitely going on. Your theory could be correct and is one I have considered and would still classify as paranormal. | ||
| Adriana (Adriana) Username: Adriana Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.231.152.180 |
There's nothing unscientific about the subconscious. The phenomenon of blindsight demonstrates it. An individual who is blind due to damage to the visual cortex, while the visual apparatus in his eyes remains undamaged, is shown a card with a number on it and asked what number it is. He says, "I have no idea. I'm blind." Pressed to take a wild guess, he will guess correctly. In other words, his brain is retrieving the visual information, but he lacks conscious access to it. But the information is there, in his "subconscious", and he is able to access it through what feels like a random guess. There's nothing esoteric about the subconscious: it's merely the informational content of our brains which, at a given moment, we don't have direct access to. What I take from this is that we all retrieve vast quantities of information which we don't process consciously. If we did, our minds would be overwhelmed with the task of separating the important from the unimportant. In my humble opinion, there is nothing paranormal about accurate readings done through any means. The fact that we unconsciously pick up on all kinds of clues we're not consciously aware of is part of it. Another part of it is that our experiences and feelings, which feel really personal and unique, are actually quite universal. I could do a reading, using Tarot cards, astrology, whatever, and say things like, "You've lost someone important to you. You have unresolved issues relating both of your parents, but one more than the other. You feel lost, but deep inside you're convinced that you'll find your way as long as you don't give up..." and so on, and a gullible person would absolutely buy it. People who are really good at this just do the same thing on a more refined level, consciously or unconsciously. Adriana would kill me if I posted this without pointing out this is Donald writing, not her. | ||
| Adriana (Adriana) Username: Adriana Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.231.152.180 |
Btw, Tony, you're experience that begins this thread is awesome. If you haven't read it, I urge you to read Joyce Carol Oates's "Night-Side". It explores themes your experience raises and is, I think, one of the two or three best ghost stories of the latter half of the 20th century. (Donald) | ||
| Adriana (Adriana) Username: Adriana Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.231.152.180 |
I don't want to court controversy. Let me just say that I think the rational explanations are adequate. That of course doesn't *prove* that nothing else is true. For those who wish to, there's always room to believe there's more going on, and the rest of us, ideally, keep an open mind. For me what's left after skeptical assessment is like pure spring water, while the other stuff is like Kool-Aid. Tastes good at first but after a while starts making you feel kind of sick. (Donald) | ||
| Adriana (Adriana) Username: Adriana Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.231.152.180 |
Donald clearly needs to get his own Username.  Does he go to GF for that? (Adriana) | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.21.235.87 |
Tony, have you ever heard of Bell's theorem? | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.182.211 |
Tony, I have the Parker one, as well as an old William Fuld board from the 1920s. It's in lovely condition, but the planchette is a bit wonky. Seen this site? http://www.museumoftalkingboards.com/ | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.5.101 |
Donald - I agree wholeheartedly, "Night-side" by Oates is a blazingly wonderful ghost story, one that is deeply disturbing, and surely like you say, one of the handful of bests of the last century. | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.187.201 |
Good to see you around these parts again, Donald. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.153.150.116 |
Yeah - seen it Huw. It's how I found out about the old boards. Donald!!!! So strange reading you again - it feels like years ago. I think my feeling that spooks are involved in almost anything has been deflated over the past few days. Looking out of my window today I just see pretty sights, the sun on leaves and stuff, nothing more. Any creative thing I've ever done has been an effort to show people the world is strange and deeper and more magic than it looks, but without that I feel like someone's taken my battery out. What's my search without a goal? Why write of ghosts if they're not there? I feel suddenly very sad, everything I held of value quite pointless. I think I read that JC Oates Tale. Fun, isn't it, if I remember? And I did look up that theorum, but my ADD-style mind meant the explanations kept slipping away from me... | ||
| Adriana (Adriana) Username: Adriana Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.231.152.180 |
(Donald speaking) Good to "see" you guys, too. Fun? Not exactly the word I'd use, Tone. I think it's one of the most disturbing ghost stories around. Tony, I truly believe that belief is not a prerequisite for wonder. The most skeptical man on the planet (Richard Dawkins) acknowledges that the universe is deeply and infinitely mysterious. "There is a stark joy in the unflinching perception of our true place in the world, and a more vivid drama than any that is possible to those who hide behind the enclosing walls of myth." - Bertrand Russell. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.250.77 |
Tony, I'm a high skeptic, but even for me, some things don't make sense in this world, though they reveal surely some kind of pattern, or lack of simple coincidence perhaps. Just two days ago, I was with some people, and I saw someone from behind, a girl - and I could swear it was Girl X, who none of us had seen in three months. I was going to say something, but I kept waiting for the others to just tell me it was her... and then this person turned around, and it was in fact, not Girl X. But guess who I should run into later that day? Yup. Girl X. Sure, it's just coincidence, on the one hand. Scientifically. But surely there's something else there, going on there - and this defies the whole theory of picking-up-on-patterns-subconsciously, as stated above, because - as in this case - there's no evidence around on which to pick up!!! To me, Tony, the "inexplicable" - God, spirits, ghosts, mighty powers, ESP and such, throw them all in the same basket - they're all "peripheral" things. You can only see them WHEN you're not looking straight at them - the more you want to stare them down and find them, the more futile your efforts. | ||
| Adriana (Adriana) Username: Adriana Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.231.152.180 |
There's something to that 'peripheral' idea... no question. Having said that, there are some out there who seem to be able to access the 'inexplicable' at will. Perhaps those for whom the 'inexplicable' is a little less inexplicable, and more one layer of the whole. My experience with the Native Elder I was working with, is an example of such. For him, there is no life without spirit. The spirit of the land, the animals, we humans. It's all about spirit. And he talks and communicates with spirits on a daily bases. Through ceremony, through his form of prayer, but also on a very surface level. If it weren't for the fact that during many of my visits to his sacred sites, I've had my own 'inexplicable' experiences, I'd be inclined to take his way of life as something to appreciate on a metaphorical level. But as it is, I can't reject a more literal truth. Of what exactly, I can't say. But something more, much more then I could ever explain. | ||
| Stephen Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
I consider myself a Fortean i.e. neither a believer nor a skeptic. I base my opinion of the paranormal on personal experience and the evidence of my own senses. I have experienced what might be termed “psychic phenomena” in the form of prophetic dreams of sometimes quite startling accuracy that I appear to have no control over. Of course as these don’t occur every night, and often not for years in between, they could be down to a string of quite bizarre coincidences. I think the likelihood of that is low (though still entirely possible) when compared to my own theory of the unconscious mind tuning into the knowledge of the universal mind during sleep and leaving subliminal impressions that we sometimes remember as real images. The same goes for the flashes of everyday clairvoyance and apparent telepathy I experience regularly enough to have struck me as out of the ordinary. I can’t control how I sometimes know what is about to happen or what someone is thinking or about to say but I know this happens. Again the “series of coincidences” explanation seems far more unlikely to me than my mind somehow tapping into some form of collective consciousness. I am nothing special in this, just appropriately open-minded, and believe anyone can hone this "wild talent" for themselves through experiment and a readiness to neither believe nor disbelieve. Most people (I would even say all) experience the same things I do but blind themselves to their own sensory input with a shrug of indifference instead of questioning what is actually going on here. The only control I appear to have over these phenomena is during the ritual of a Tarot reading. Frequently I will frighten myself with some comment I hear my lips speaking that I know there is no way I could possibly have known. Yes, there are times I get things way off but the times I am right appear far higher than would be allowed for by the law of averages. My method is always the same: I ask the person beforehand to have a single question or concern prepared to kick-start the reading that once asked cannot be elaborated on. They ask the question while I shuffle the pack always in exactly the same way and then get them to cut the deck three times and finally to tap the topmost card of the reassembled deck three times (if I or they make a mistake I start again which introduces the ritual aspect and gets things into a nicely serious mood). We must always be alone and preferably sat side-by-side at a large comfortable table facing the same way. All this time I have been thinking about the question and getting impressions from the person (which, I agree, is where a bit of Holmesian analysis probably comes in). I then deal out three cards (past, present and future) and this is where I start speaking my instant impressions. Then as the reading progresses I deal cards as I feel right branching off from the first three (above, below or to the sides as feels right) to grow into an organic shape of sometimes quite mesmerising intricacy – that’s why it is important to be sat facing the same way so we can both watch the shape grow (I don’t believe in reversed cards so they all face the same way up). The sitter can respond to what I’m saying or sit in silence but usually there will be at least a few gasps and “how could you know that” comments. I do not go in for generalisations such as Dominic suggested above but speak honestly what I see in the cards and explain the meanings as I go along – if I see bad stuff I always say and this is one of the things I am frequently praised for. The whole experience can be intensely emotional and tears are very common but I have never, to my knowledge, traumatised anyone or left them scarred as I always make it plain I’m there to help. People respond to this, ask advice and the whole thing often ends in an impromptu counselling session lol. As a Fortean I have to admit the possibility this is all based on interpersonal skills I’m not even aware I have (I’m actually quite shy normally) but there have been so many spooky moments when the cards take over and begin to speak for themselves and the patterns become so clear cut in a way I could never have pre-rigged that I am 99% convinced there really is something genuinely paranormal going on. It fascinates me and freaks me out at the same time but I wouldn’t have it any other way! | ||
| Stephen Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
Where did I get Dominic from lol. | ||
| Adriana (Adriana) Username: Adriana Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.231.152.180 |
Well, my grandparents are always trying to rename Donald with something Italian... ;) | ||
| Adriana (Adriana) Username: Adriana Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.231.152.180 |
I had a deck of Tarot cards -- used them in my teens, but grew to fear them as they always said the same thing about my life, and overall it was pretty horrible. (Damn that tower card!) In the end, I proclaimed the deck evil and hid it away. Years later (when moving) I found the deck and took a moment to laugh at myself for having been so frightened, only to realize that in retrospect the deck had been right all along. I still have it. But I've never used it again... | ||
| Adriana (Adriana) Username: Adriana Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.231.152.180 |
I had a reading done though (I think my first, and one of only 3 I've had in my life) on the Venice Beach boardwalk a couple years ago. A year later, I went back to the woman and had another. And I would TOTALLY go see her again. She blew my mind, less in what she said, then in the way I saw her communicating with the cards. It was almost as if each card itself didn't matter - it was more like there were whisperings happening between the cards... Whatever was going on there, it was extraordinary. Real time story-telling coming from who knows where. | ||
| Stephen Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
You've just explained exactly the phenomena I experience every time I do a Tarot reading - it is like unconscious storytelling. I never know what is going to come out and never, ever (though you have only my word for this) set out to hoodwink anyone. I love and respect the deck almost as a friend - and sometimes I fear it not for what it says about the person I'm reading for but what it says about me. | ||
| Seanmcd (Seanmcd) Username: Seanmcd Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 86.155.111.216 |
I bought the Rider Waite deck during the summer Stephen ! After watching a fascinating documentary. They are quite beautiful. I'm only learning the individual meanings at the mo and will be interested to see what 'stories' they have in store. I do remember your first deck from our schooldays and seem to recall us having a go at the Ouija board too. Although I have to say I regard both of these alleged 'supernatural' devices as mere tools used to focus our individual awareness on the universal aspect of our infinite consciousness. Allowing the illusory nature of the individual to drop away and reconnect 'us' with all encompassing awareness. The Tarot reader IS the sitter. The sitter IS the Tarot reader. Until the ritual ends and the illusion of separateness comes crashing back into place. Then the tears and 'how could you know that?' Sorry for coming over all Obi Wan like but this topic is beyond the ability of mere words to describe. Hence the enduring nature of myth and storytelling as a means of communicating such realities down the ages. | ||
| Seanmcd (Seanmcd) Username: Seanmcd Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 86.155.111.216 |
And stories, even the really meaningful ones (wink), should NEVER be taken literally. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.23.233.247 |
I think dvds - or indeed stories, paintings - can 'be' tarot. Recently I've been watching tv episodes of various things and they really have great significance to my life, hold messages for me. Last night the episode of Supernatural I watched told me so many things about something that's been heavily on my mind it felt almost creepy, albeit still inspiring. Anyone know what crystal balls do? (no puns, Joel) | ||
| Stephen Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
I wouldn't have the patience for scrying but basically I see it as a form of self-hypnosis. The person puts themselves into a trance-like state by staring intensely into a crystal ball or bowl of water (as Nostradamus did) and then visions of the future are supposedly revealed to them. I can see how it could work in theory but also how it could be abused by the unscrupulous a lot more easily than pretending with the Tarot or a ouija board. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
Patsy Cline did a lot of Scrying. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.0.63 |
Surely an even more/equally accurate method of "seeing" would be the very lost art of AUGURY, which is divination using either the actual body parts of animals, or divination through the observation of animals in nature. It persisted for hundreds (thousands?) of years; the Romans had an official bureaucracy wholly devoted to augury. And I've always believed, that those things which persist for generations, must have had, at the very least, germs of truth within them.... | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.153.150.116 |
The big explanations for all this are that time is still, and we are all in touch with one another somehow, and phenomena can only be truly fluid when we look away from it. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.0.63 |
A little wild fox traipsing by my window just told me "Chaos reigns." Huh. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.153.150.116 |
Now that's what I call a marketing campaign... | ||
| Stephen Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
Craig, still my movie of the year and creepiest moment of the year. That scene made me jump and really gave me the shivers for days afterward. | ||
| Stephen Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
Good man Sean, you'll be hooked in no time. The Crowley deck is a real work of art as well. I don't remember us having any luck with the ouija. However, I've thought up another idea in the absence of a proper set: pick out one of each letter from a scrabble set (love that game) and the two blanks stickered YES and NO. Put them in a bag, shake, ask your question and take one out at random, write it down, put it back and repeat until something (hopefully) meaningful comes of it. Either that or wvugstyipzlpftf YES. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.56 |
Or "What do you get if you multiply six by nine?" which is what Arthur Dent pulled out of the bag at the end of the radio series when he asked it what was the ultimate question of Life the Universe and Everything. (of course we all know that the answer is 42. | ||
| Adriana (Adriana) Username: Adriana Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.231.152.180 |
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| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.194.217 |
The Crowley/Harris deck is the one I used to use most. It's unlike any other deck - beautiful, intense, and packed full of symbolism. | ||
| Adriana (Adriana) Username: Adriana Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.231.152.180 |
Is anybody here familiar with the shadow cards? | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 212.74.96.200 |
yeah, Michael Crichton's book TRAVELS had a bit in it where he spoke of giving readings for people, but I'm not sure if he claimed these readings were via tarot or ouija boards. Some other manner, I seem to recall. |