| Author | Message | ||
     Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.74 |
"...who clearly thinks of himself as a very good, if not a great writer..." "...read by a small percentage [of readers]..." "...has forestalled the judgement of cultural history [about his work]..." "...his talent has long since atrophied..." "Are his novels good enough to be remembered? No." "...weak and derivative prose..." Who could this possibly be? | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.22.227.133 |
Shudder to think . . . But I can guess where it comes from. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
Is it Dan Brown? ;-) | ||
| Stevenw (Stevenw) Username: Stevenw Registered: 10-2009 Posted From: 194.70.181.1 |
I suspect these are quotes about Nabokov. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.47 |
No, Nabakov was just rubbish full stop. Is this more from sourgrapes.com or is he posting his usual rant somewhere else? Steven, not sure if you were serious with your nabakov comment but let's put it this way, by posting on this board, you're one of the sycophants mentioned... | ||
| Stevenw (Stevenw) Username: Stevenw Registered: 10-2009 Posted From: 194.70.181.1 |
Well, I Googled the first quote and that's what came up. I am Librarian. That's what I do. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.47 |
Actually, one of the other quotes also googles onto Nabakov as well. You may well be right. I actually think that if it is Nabakov, that whoever said them all is 100% correct. I hate Nabakov. I think he's one of the most boring writers of all time. | ||
| Stevenw (Stevenw) Username: Stevenw Registered: 10-2009 Posted From: 194.70.181.1 |
I like Lolita a lot but havn't read any of his other novels. I might make a start on Pale Fire which has been on my large to be read pile for a long while. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.27.133.134 |
>>>Who could this possibly be? Well, nobody around here seems to know, so I guess it must be someone with whom us guys are unfamiliar. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
I think they're all Nabokov. Who has been vindicated by "the judgement of cultural history". Search around and almost any major writer is vilified on the Internet. Philip Roth gets more than his fair share of abuse, mostly from readers who think not only that his work should be judged in terms of his personal life, but that the former can never be about anything but the latter. | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 80.47.23.139 |
You haven't arrived until you have a good vilification. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.239.0 |
I want to be vilified....  | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.47 |
More than we usually do??? | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.22.227.133 |
Try writing a book along the lines of Lolita nowadays and see if you can find a publisher . . . That said, I thought the quotes were about the world's leading horror writer, not Nabokov. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.239.0 |
Well, I'd sure like to be vilified for something I'm proud of, for once. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.47 |
You mean you're not proud of your taste in films? | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.239.0 |
Uh - er - I'm RIGHT there, so, uh, there's nothing to be proud of.... (whisked out of that one) | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.171.129.73 |
Whoever it is, my suspicion is he or she will be remembered longer than the critic (or critics) who made the remarks. | ||
| Steve Jensen (Stevej) Username: Stevej Registered: 07-2009 Posted From: 82.0.77.233 |
Just a guess, but it sounds like Edmund Wilson on his former friend Vladimir Nabakov...or possibly someone criticising Orwell. Then again, it could be Martin Amis writing about someone of superior talent.   | ||
| Steve Jensen (Stevej) Username: Stevej Registered: 07-2009 Posted From: 82.0.77.233 |
*Nabokov | ||
| Steve Jensen (Stevej) Username: Stevej Registered: 07-2009 Posted From: 82.0.77.233 |
Got it! It's Katie Price dissin' Amis! | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.171.129.71 |
Martine McCuthcheon was on Woman's Hour today, plugging her new book (for yes, she has indeed writtena novel: The Mistress: number one on the Asda paperback chart), and was saying she thinks it's good for celebrities/actors to write books, because writers often make bit-part appearances in TV adaptations of thier work. | ||
| Gcw (Gcw) Username: Gcw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.167.117.66 |
"...read by a small percentage [of readers]..." Better than being read by nobody. Whatsoever. gcw..  | ||
| Thomasb (Thomasb) Username: Thomasb Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 69.236.169.42 |
God, I haven't even published my first novel yet and they're after me already. . . . . I don't know if anyone around here did anything for Halloween. I sure didn't and here's why at: http://www.redroom.com/blog/thomas-burchfield/the-grinch-who-dissed-halloween So: who is it, Ramsey? | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.184.50 |
Come on! The answer's already been stated a few times. It's Vladimir Nabokov. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.184.50 |
(As Google searches readily demonstrate.) | ||
| Stephen Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
The only Nabokov I've read is the short story 'The Visit To The Museum' (1958) included in 'The 7th Fontana Book Of Great Ghost Stories' by Robert Aickman. The haunting surrealism of the tale and in particular the ambiguous ending reminded me greatly of Aickman's own work. | ||
| Steve Jensen (Stevej) Username: Stevej Registered: 07-2009 Posted From: 82.0.77.233 |
It's Harold Bloom on Skunky Unsworth! | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 80.47.23.139 |
Enjoyed reading it - Thomas! Keep them coming. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.74 |
Indeed, as three folk have already said, the subject is Nabokov. The comments are Peter Ackroyd's. I could imagine that I've read them somewhere else, though, and in some cases in almost the same words. You might almost call that derivative. | ||
| Steve Jensen (Stevej) Username: Stevej Registered: 07-2009 Posted From: 82.0.77.233 |
I love Ackroyd's work. His Last Testament of Oscar Wilde is a real favourite of mine. I haven't read any of Nabokov's work, so I can't give an opinion on that, but in his correspondence with Wilson he often comes across as a remarkable person, with real insight. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.74 |
I very much admire both authors, Steve. I've gone on about Lolita so frequently on this board that I'll give you a different recommendation - try Laughter in the Dark if you like. I found it unputdownable. Or there's the nightmarish Bend Sinister, or the astounding literary sport Pale Fire. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.47 |
Peter ackroyd is clearly a man of taste. for an alternate opinion on Lolita than the generally held view here, if you know my real name, check my amazon review of the book on amazon.co.uk (or indeed search earlier threads here) | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
Is it coz you don't understand them big words, Weber? ;-) I'm sure there'll be a phone-text version along on ebook soon...  | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.47 |
No It's coz the pompous overwritten drivel bores me to tears... | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.240.99 |
I've read little Nabokov - for some reason, I just have no desire to, but I can't exactly explain why that is. I read "The Vane Sisters" I believe - years back - references to Wilde there, speaking of him (DORIAN GRAY) - or maybe I'm thinking of some other story?... what a muddle - ain't memory wonderful?... | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.27.133.134 |
From Jade Goody to Nabokov - gutter and great alike get your gander going, Web. You dislike cultural extremes, methinks. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.240.99 |
Oh yes, and I've heard that one song too, if that counts - you know, "like the old man in that book by Nabokov"?...  | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.47 |
One frankly hilarious thing about Lolita (and IMHO the ONLY funny thing)- I read it for my reading group a couple of years ago. One of the women in the group came to the meeting, she said she hadn't read it because she googled Lolita and was so shocked by the hits it brought up that she refused to buy the book... | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 82.38.75.85 |
Oh no, Craig, I wish you hadn't mentioned that line in a song! I just know that I know what song it is - I can hear the line - but my failing memory won't tell me what it is. Please, please put me out of my misery and tell me what song it is somebody, or I'll go mad trying to figure it out ... | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.4.33 |
Oh, Caroline... why do you assume you are not mad already...?  | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 82.38.75.85 |
Oh, Craig, you're a swine - yes, you are. I've got it! The Police - "Don't Stand So Close To Me". So now my head can stop spinning and I can go back to being sane and sensible again ... | ||
| Stephen Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
I suppose 'Lolita' could be described as a kind of psycho thriller (going by the brilliant Kubrick film version) and Humbert Humbert does come across as quite Ripleyesque in the way he insinuates himself into Lolita's life. I've always intended to read it and will some day. 'Bend Sinister' I see is described as dystopian sci-fi and I do love a good dystopia. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.27.133.134 |
I read recently that Marks and Spencer or Tesco or somewhere equally loathsome designed a new set of teenage girls' underwear and called the range Lolita. When asked whether they know where the name popularly came from, not one employer involved in the project knew. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.4.33 |
If you like to call it that.... What other pop/rock songs refer explicitly to literature/authors?... I can only think off-hand of the couple of Zep songs with Lord of the Ring references... | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.4.33 |
Er- my post above refers back to Caroline - I think.... | ||
| Steve Jensen (Stevej) Username: Stevej Registered: 07-2009 Posted From: 82.0.77.233 |
What other pop/rock songs refer explicitly to literature/authors? Can't Buy Me Lovecraft Hey Jude the Obscure Crome Yellow Submarine And more seriously... Paperback Writer. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.47 |
Rime of the Ancient Mariner - Iron Maiden | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.4.33 |
Does "Paperback Writer" refer to specific authors/books? I can't remember. Rush, "Limelight," has a mangled Shakespeare quote. And does their "Tom Sawyer" count? | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.47 |
More from Iron Maiden Murders in the Rue Morgue Lord of the Flies Brave new world Stranger in a strange land Phantom of the opera Loneliness of the long distance runner | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.1.170 |
Jefferson Airplane, "White Rabbit" I'm sure if I went through all the lyrics of REM "It's The End Of The World As We Know It (And I Feel Fine)" I'd find a few there.... I've always thought there were distant allusions to Carlos Castaneda in Fleetwood Mac's "Hypnotized" | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.1.170 |
Oh - the whole Eurythmics 1984 album - a soundtrack, but it stands alone, so I'm counting it. ... yeah, I got nothing going on today, if anyone's asking.... | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.47 |
Marillion's Grendel - which is almost as long as the 1984 soundtrack (but a fantastic song) | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.179.60 |
- "Wuthering Heights" - Kate Bush - "1984" - David Bowie - "Killing an Arab" - The Cure (Camus) - "Painted Bird" - Siouxsie and the Banshees (Jerzy Kosinski's novel) - "Everybody's Happy Nowadays" - Buzzcocks (inspired by Brave New World, if I remember correctly) - "The Iron Man" - Pete Townsend (based on Ted Hughes's poetry) - "Venus in Furs" - Velvet Underground Manic Street Preachers mention a lot of writers in their songs. Bauhaus had an early single called "Dark Entries" but I don't know if it was taken from Aickman's collection. Can't think of any others right now, but there must be some. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.27.133.134 |
Isn't there a band called Uriah Heep? [showing my ignorance of music, but exceptional knowledge of literature] | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.27.133.134 |
What about literature named after songs? There's The Shining for one. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.27.133.134 |
(Yes, I know the song was called The Shine. Cut me some slack, will ya?) | ||
| Chris_morris (Chris_morris) Username: Chris_morris Registered: 04-2008 Posted From: 12.165.240.116 |
The book was also called The Shine, until publishers forced King to change it. But you probably knew that, too, eh? | ||
| Chris_morris (Chris_morris) Username: Chris_morris Registered: 04-2008 Posted From: 12.165.240.116 |
>> Marillion's Grendel - which is almost as long as the 1984 soundtrack (but a fantastic song) Just curious, Weber: In what way is "Lolita" overwrought and pretentious that "Grendel" isn't? | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 82.38.75.85 |
>>Isn't there a band called Uriah Heep? [showing my ignorance of music, but exceptional knowledge of literature]<< There certainly is, or was, Gary. Back in the early 70s (or late 60s?). I have their album "Very 'eavy, Very 'umble" from that time, with the amazing track called "Gypsy". Sends shivers down my spine, that does. As for other songs about literature: Al Stewart - "Sirens of Titan" (Kurt Vonnegut Jnr) | ||
| Steve Jensen (Stevej) Username: Stevej Registered: 07-2009 Posted From: 82.0.77.233 |
Absolute Beginners by The Jam (Colin MacInnes). | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.27.133.134 |
Romeo and Juliet by Dire Straits. My dad used to play it, all right. | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 82.38.75.85 |
>>Romeo and Juliet by Dire Straits. My dad used to play it, all right. :-)<< Oh yes, I've got that too. I wonder if I'm about the same age as your dad, Gary?  | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.16.77.175 |
Wow, I knew there were more I couldn't think of! I was debating "1984" and "Big Brother" both by Bowie, but I thought... the songs were too vague to point to them directly - references in name only. I shoulda thought of Camus/"Killing an Arab" though! Dammit! What's the literary reference with "Venus in Furs"?... should I be embarrassed to reveal I don't know it?... | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.22.227.133 |
"Tales of Mystery and Imagination" by the Allan Parson's Project (Poe) "Animals" by Pink Floyd (Orwell, albeit vaguely) "The Cinema Show" by Genesis (T.S. Eliot) "92 degrees" by Siouxsie and the Banshees (Bradbury's "Touched with Fire" | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.155.44 |
Craig: Venus in Furs is the novel by Leopold Sacher-Masoch from which the word 'masochism' is derived. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.155.44 |
'An Englishman in New York' by Sting is about Quentin Crisp. Er, that's Quentin Crisp the gay writer and icon as opposed to Quentin Crisp the stylish but straight weird fiction writer. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.155.44 |
"Just curious, Weber: In what way is "Lolita" overwrought and pretentious that "Grendel" isn't?" And, for that matter, in what way is Lolita shit that Iron Maiden isn't? | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.3.134 |
Joel - I've still never heard of the novel, though I have heard - HEARD - of masochism. Rod Stewart, "Every Picture Tells A Story" (with the line "I can't quote you no Dickens, Shelly, or Keats..." | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.3.134 |
Frank Zappa, "Uncle Remus"?... | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.196.248 |
Ramsey, what this demonstrates I think is that the committed literary enthusiast can get it more spectacularly and dangerously wrong than the uncommitted drifter. Witnesss S.T. Joshi on Stephen King. It's not the passing strangers but the fen one has to worry about. (Are scholarly enthusiasts fen? Never anything but.) | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.3.134 |
Speaking of "getting it wrong" and "committed literary enthusiast" and Harold Bloom (mentioned above), Joel, here's a few that Bloom doesn't like himself: --Stephen King, too (actively dislikes) --Edgar Allen Poe (hates more than King) --Ezra Pound (all but detests) --virtually all contemporary poets, with the noted exception of Ashberry --snarkily snipes at Bradbury, and ho-hums Vonnegut --in his own, solely-authored work (as opposed to the piles of essay collections he's edited), sins of omission include: Joseph Conrad, George Bernard Shaw, and... Vladimir Nabokov (of whom he's almost never written about [again, in his solely-authored books], except for a single snippy comment about Nabokov in his entire [and actually quite excellent] THE WESTERN CANON: pg.469, "...the two modern writers most exasperated by Freud were Nabokov and Borges. Both were petulant and unpleasant on Freud...." That's all we get, in that giant tome, on Nabokov: that he was petulant and unpleasant about someone else.) | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.47 |
"Just curious, Weber: In what way is "Lolita" overwrought and pretentious that "Grendel" isn't?" "And, for that matter, in what way is Lolita shit that Iron Maiden isn't?" You can crowdsurf to Iron Maiden. They're a great great band live and I cosider seventh son of a seventh son one of the greatest albums of the 80's. And any band that can get a Christmas number one with a song called Bring your daughter to the slaughter (xmas no 1 in 1990 when they released it for 2 weeks only over the christmas period) is going to get kudos in my eyes. Iron Maiden are an exciting band to watch. Lolita is overwritten tedious dross. All IMHO obviously. IMHO Lolita was an excercise in how far up his own arse Nabokov could stick his head. He must have been licking his own tosils by the end of it. And the song Grendel may be overblown and possibly too long but it has an epic ring to it in places and I think Fish's voice is excellent in it. He switches from sweetness to threatening with aplomb. It's also a fantastic song on the motorway. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.74 |
"White Rabbit" certainly, but "Rejoyce" even more so! | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 213.158.199.68 |
Weber - I guess it really is a matter of taste, or lack of one. To say Lolita is 'overwritten tedious dross', or that Nabokov is indulgent wank (my interpretation of your interpretation), smacks terribly of the old schoolyard mentality; grown men have no excuse. It's the oldest criticism in the book, that it's 'drivel, pretentious, etc,' just because somebody doesn't like it, or perhaps doesn't get it. So you didn't like it, fair enough, you can say it's boring, or that it lacked that certain something which keeps you interested, but to dismiss it as rubbish is nonsense. And no, I'm not afraid to level criticism at the holy cows of literature. I've long maintained that Nabokov's 'Mary', which I believe was his first published novel, had arguably one of the technically greatest prose conclusions in literature. Weber - Iron Maiden is the equivalent of straddling an air-guitar in front of 60'000 grunting, girlfriendless spotty Napalm Death rejects...see, my criticism lacks that certain control of constructive criticism. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.47 |
There was about 100,000 on the crowd when I saw them, about a 60/40 split men to women, ages ranged fairly evenly from 12 to 50. By the way, if you read my last post, I did use IMHO at least twice. I'm perfectly entitled to say that Nabakov is tedious drivel IMHO. IMHO. I clearly share my opinions with Peter Ackroyd as well so I ain't alone in my thoughts on the subject. I'm not dissing anyone here for liking nabokov, I'm just stating my opinions. Regards from a... what am I apparently... grunting, girlfriendless spotty Napalm Death reject | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
Touche! | ||
| Steve Jensen (Stevej) Username: Stevej Registered: 07-2009 Posted From: 82.0.77.233 |
To be fair, at least Iron Maiden have enough about them to use literary works for song-writing inspiration. This is on a higher plane altogether than most popular music & is perhaps more mature, in taste and in thinking, than one might perhaps assume; after all, don't we all write about heroes and anti-heroes, maverick loners, the 'light and the dark' in our 'sophisticated' way? Frank, I'll have to seek out 'Mary'; you make it sound very appealing. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
"This is on a higher plane altogether than most popular music & is perhaps more mature, in taste and in thinking, than one might perhaps assume" No, I think you'll find it's derivative and adolescent and shows a sluggish desire to be perceived as intelligent without having to think too hard. At best, it shows that Iron Maiden were trying to corner the metal/prog crossover market segment. They were always better at marketing than at music. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
Songs with literary references... Bruce Springsteen's 'The Ghost of Tom Joad'. One of his best songs. The last verse of Bob Dylan's 'Desolation Row'. The Fall's 'Dice Man'. | ||
| Steve Jensen (Stevej) Username: Stevej Registered: 07-2009 Posted From: 82.0.77.233 |
I meant that the mere aspiration is laudatory, Joel, not necessarily the practice of such. | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 213.158.199.68 |
Touche my arse! I was illustrating an approach towards decent criticism, not overwrought subjective dismissal. If you like Iron Maiden, then also fine. I won't attack you for that. I don't like it, though I'm sure I might find something in it to possibly admire (but probably not)and I could explain why, but I think you know what I mean. Steve J - Hey mate. I think you'd love 'Mary'. It's almost fatalistic in its approach as a debut novel. I'm surprised I never mentioned it before. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.47 |
No, I think you'll find it's derivative and adolescent and shows a sluggish desire to be perceived as intelligent without having to think too hard. Bruce Dickinson (lead singer of IM has a degree in History from Oxford university, is a qualified pilot and one time fencing champion of Britain. Quite a talented chap methinks, in a larger range of disciplines than most people here can lay claim to... Lazy criticism does not become you Joel. | ||
| Steve Jensen (Stevej) Username: Stevej Registered: 07-2009 Posted From: 82.0.77.233 |
Frank, it's unbecoming of you to request that people touché your arse. | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 82.38.75.85 |
Whoa, boys! Why does it have to get so personal when you guys discuss what you like/dislike? It's all down to personal opinion - we're individuals, we like different things. Period. Now, go on, give each other a big hug. That's it. Lovely. All friends again now? | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 82.38.75.85 |
>>Frank, it's unbecoming of you to request that people touché your arse.<< | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.74 |
"No, I think you'll find it's derivative and adolescent and shows a sluggish desire to be perceived as intelligent without having to think too hard." While I've no knowledge at all of the band, I don't see how this comment on the music is in any way contradicted by "Bruce Dickinson (lead singer of IM has a degree in History from Oxford university, is a qualified pilot and one time fencing champion of Britain. Quite a talented chap methinks, in a larger range of disciplines than most people here can lay claim to..." | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.47 |
My statement shows that Bruce Dickinson is an intelligent and multitalented person - so "a sluggish desire to be perceived as intelligent without having to think too hard." is a bit silly, as he doesn't need to be perceived as intelligent when he clearly is. | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.21.235.87 |
The Buggles' second and final record, "Adventures in Modern Recording" contains references to various science fiction writers, notably Ballard. | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.21.235.87 |
he doesn't need to be perceived as intelligent when he clearly is It all boils down to the perception of Iron Maiden and the type person listening to that kind of music, of course. I say live and let live. Metallica were once in the same camp and look how MOR they've become. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.252.144 |
I've not heard "Rejoyce" - but yes, I see it references ULYSSES, from the lyrics I looked up. | ||
| Steve Jensen (Stevej) Username: Stevej Registered: 07-2009 Posted From: 82.0.77.233 |
Kate Bush's The Sensual World: 'The song is inspired by Molly Bloom stepping out of the black and white, two-dimensional pages of James Joyce's Ulysses into the real world, and is immediately struck by the sensuality of it all.' | ||
| Stephen Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
Did someone mention The Fall?!?! Mark E. Smith is the next best thing to the Zappa man in my book. A towering genius in the rock world whose lyrics are always chock full of literary allusions. He was also a big Lovecraft fan. Check out his solo album 'The Post Nearly Man' (1998) and in particular the track "The Horror In Clay" for his most explicit Lovecraft references. | ||
| Steve Jensen (Stevej) Username: Stevej Registered: 07-2009 Posted From: 82.0.77.233 |
Ah, why can't life be like a Kate Bush video? The Sensual World: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJc64xncBt4 | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.252.144 |
I'm walking along in the woods, and I stumble across... snow falling... fires flaming... a full orchestra coming from nowhere... a dancing witch.... Yikes!!! Feets don't fail me now! | ||
| Steve Jensen (Stevej) Username: Stevej Registered: 07-2009 Posted From: 82.0.77.233 |
Still, a more Romantic life is what we should all strive for... 'What the world's million lips are thirsting for must be substantial somewhere.' | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
Rock group Rush based one of their songs on one of Ayn Rand's right-wing novels. Weber, do you really think having a degree proves you to be an original creative thinker? If so, you're only person in the world who believes that. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.47 |
Did I say that? I said it shows intelligence. Something you've been claiming that Bruce dickinson lacks by virtue of the fact that you don't like his music. | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 213.158.199.68 |
Weber - this is what I mean, mate. You're getting annoyed with Joel for what you perceive to be unjust criticism, in that you feel it lacks substance or understanding of the subject, the same reasons that dismissing Nabokov in the way that you did annoyed me. And let's be honest, if Iron Maiden were the greatest band in the world, we simply can't connect the two, they are two wholly different art forms. Personally, I don't think Joel was singling out Dickinson, but the group as a whole. Not unless Dickinson has thrust his degree heavy rapier through the others and escaped in his light aircraft! | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.252.144 |
Still, a more Romantic life is what we should all strive for... Two lovebirds on this board already is all I can handle. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.47 |
I'm on record with my views on Lolita in several threads on this board. As such, my comments tend to get shorter and less expansive as I've said it all before. plus I always make the point that this is my opinion. There's a difference between that and just stating or implying that if I like a particular band by extension I must be a moronic, emotionally retarded, adolescent loser (to summarise most of the comments above). I at least read the Nabokov in order to form my opinions of it. The closest I suspect you or Joel have ever come to listening to Iron Maiden is sneering disdainfully at the Metal section of HMV. | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 213.158.199.68 |
Weber - wrong. I sneer disdainfully at crap, not genre. I made the 'adolescent' jibe to show you that my opinion, not my criticism was dismissive and not informed from objective analysis. I wasn't ridiculing, but attempting to imitate what constitutes as moronic. I respect your right to have an opinion. But wouldn't it be better if we respected each others' opinions based on meaningful interpretation? And just for the record, I spent a large part of my youth and early twenties with a group of folk who were heavily into bands such as Iron Maiden, and I never once dismissed their tastes. I was a Smiths fan, and they never dismissed my tastes either. Because at the end of the day it was argued on the basis of talent, skill and ability, not waved away as meaning nothing because somebody else thought it was. And I have listened to probably more or less their entire output since the early eighties to the time when Dickinson departed to host his Radio One show. It's just not for me, and I could list reasons why, could offer up examples to outline my feelings, but I won't because I fear it will fall on deaf ears. I am no music snob. Okay? | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.7.209 |
Are we really arguing here about Iron Maiden?... And no, that's not an existential or Freudian query - it's dismay. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.47 |
I like the Smiths as well. I've seen Morrissey 4 times now at the Apollo. I think they're excellent. Johnny Marr is a legendary guitarist. So IMHO is Dickinson and the rest of the Maiden axemen over the years. It's one of those things. No matter what you say I'm not going to stop liking Maiden or start liking Nabokov. I do respect your opinions but I draw the line at some of the crass generalisations that have been made on this thread about the band and their followers being spotty nerdy morons. I'll point out again that I used IMHO (In MY Humble Opinion) in all my comments about Lolita. I never tried to state that if you like Lolita you must be a perv or a pretentious twat which would be the corresponding criticism to those that have flown back in my direction over my music tastes. I have pointed out the errors in the generalisations made about my musical taste. If you want my reasons for my opinions on Lolita, check my amazon review of it, check back on this board. It simply read to me as pompous and irritating. I gleaned not one iota of pleasure from the prose which IMHO never uses one word where 36597 words will do instead. The same way IM do nothing for you musically, Lolita does nothing for me bookishly and when people insist that I must be wrong, I'm not. It's my opinion. i respect your opinion on the book. I just don't like it. | ||
| Gcw (Gcw) Username: Gcw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.167.117.66 |
Oh dear, oh dear. Back in t'day, when I were a lad, I never really got 'Maiden... I like the sassy Rock bands like UFO...Streetwise & cool. I always disliked 'studded wristband' metal - boring to me, and I have always hated the way Maiden simply pick a book or a film and write the song of it. However...I ssupect the row isn't really about Maiden.... gcw | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.21.235.87 |
I used to be a HUGE Black Sabbath and Deep Purple fan. There, I admit it. Quite honestly, I still respect Ritchie Blackmore who's a hell of a guitar player, not just IMHO. Before that it was (erm . . . do I have to tell this?) The Sweet. And before The Sweet it was The Middle of the Road, or to be more specific Sally Car's legs. | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 213.158.199.68 |
Weber - you are missing my point. I have never thought of Iron Maiden fans as spotty nerds. NEVER. I was deliberately choosing the most inane pointless form of caricature to demonstrate base criticism. Those chaps I talked about, the Iron Maiden fans, were some of the nicest, most decent and trustworthy people I ever had the pleasure to meet. All I'm saying is criticism should be formed on constructive analysis so other people can appreciate, even if they disagree, with it. Let's just agree to disagree. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
"closest I suspect you or Joel have ever come to listening to Iron Maiden is sneering disdainfully at the Metal section of HMV." Yeah, right. A whole fucking decade of hearing their singles on the radio and seeing them on TV. I've heard more of them than I have of Metallica, whose records I like (and sometimes buy). My Maiden exposure, like most people's, is considerable. I didn't say that Bruce Dickinson is stupid, only that he is faux-literary in an adolescent way. Do you really think his having a degree makes that impossible? | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 06-2008 Posted From: 81.155.107.1 |
Having a degree makes nothing impossible. | ||
| Thomasb (Thomasb) Username: Thomasb Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 69.236.169.42 |
Ramsey: So happens I'm reading "Laughter in the Dark" right now, every morning before I sit down to work on my WIP. Weber: Regarding VN's pompousness and pretentiousness, to steal a line from Hammett: What's the poor man supposed to do? Learn to spell badly? Ally: Thanks! They will continue to come. Joel: Patience, sir. While I guessed VN, those lines have been fired into the work of many other writers (even me), which explains their familiarity. I was only encouraging a response from the questioner. | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 82.38.75.85 |
So, did you all just ignore my suggestion of having a group hug? | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.197.235 |
Mark E. Smith is a Machen fan, too. And he mentions M.R. James in "Spector vs. Rector" (from Dragnet). | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.197.235 |
Is it safe to admit I like Thin Lizzy? | ||
| Gcw (Gcw) Username: Gcw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.167.117.66 |
Sure is - they were all the good things about rock music. Cool & sassy. gcw | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.197.235 |
Good to hear, Gcw! I thought I might be lambasted for a moment there... | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.244.162 |
Thin Lizzy were terrific: genre-twisting folk R&B street ruffians with passion and mystery. Heavy metal musicians listen to Phil Lynott or Jimi Hendrix or Howling Wolf and think 'I can do that' – but they get it so wrong. They've got the tattoos but they don't got the boots. | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.197.235 |
I agree, Joel. If you watch a performance by Hendrix or Lynott, you notice immediately the natural charisma and presence so lacking in many later rock bands. So many singers and musicians get it wrong, or just don't have 'it'. | ||
| Karim Ghahwagi (Karim) Username: Karim Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 80.163.7.108 |
'Heavy metal musicians listen to Phil Lynott or Jimi Hendrix or Howling Wolf and think 'I can do that' – but they get it so wrong.' _____ Thats some generalization! Stuff has moved on, not much, but its moved on. I would add bands like Meshuggah, Tool, Devin Townsend kind of leave that in the dust. | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.197.235 |
Listen to Thin Lizzy's soulful early '70s rendition of "Whisky in the Jar" and then the godawful Metallica cover version. Aargh! Even worse than their cover of Killing Joke's "The Wait". | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.47 |
Metallica's cover of Whisky in the Jar is a great song. Better than Thin Lizzy's by far IMHO | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.55 |
Frank. I hated Lolita so much that any criticism I make will be an almost total dismaissal. I have gone into my reasons for this several times on this board and I have said several times on this thread that if you want a more detailed reasoning for it to check the other threads and my review on amazon.co.uk. You know my real name so it won't be difficult to find. You won't be surprised to learn it's one of the one star reviews. | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.21.235.87 |
Clearly it wasn't what you expected. | ||
| Stephen Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
Metallica's cover of Whisky in the Jar is a great song. Better than Thin Lizzy's by far IMHO Now you really are talking bollocks! (imho) | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.192.152 |
Weber, that's sacrilege! If you were a Lord I'd have to 'do a Tony' and strip you of one of your epaulettes. | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 82.38.75.85 |
>>Metallica's cover of Whisky in the Jar is a great song. Better than Thin Lizzy's by far IMHO Now you really are talking bollocks! (imho) << Yes, I think I'm going to beat Weber up myself after that comment! OK, I admit to being a Metal fan - but the older stuff, the great stuff you've mentioned like Hendrix, Black Sabbath, Thin Lizzy, etc. There has been some good stuff since, but, to be honest, I couldn't tell the difference between Metallica, Iron Maiden, Guns 'n Roses, and all those bands. But I put it down to age - the bands of my youth sound far better to me than later bands. Like Karim says, things move on and times change. So the older Metal is far better IMHO. | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.21.235.87 |
Hendrix . . . metal? | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.192.152 |
I see these older bands as more rock than metal, and the ones I find more interesting usually have elements of other styles, such as blues, folk, and so on. I think Hendrix is more rooted in blues than anything else. | ||
| Steve Jensen (Stevej) Username: Stevej Registered: 07-2009 Posted From: 82.0.77.233 |
One thing I love about Hendrix was his entire lack of conformity - even on 'pop' tv shows, he wouldn't just pedantically play his latest hit song - he'd almost always improvise as he went along, even if this meant the running time of the programme was extended. He hardly ever failed to be 'transported' by his music. Unlike 99.9% of musicians, he was not content to just stand there and play his greatest hits by rote; he was above all that, by deliberate design and by nature. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.47 |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMoGwPGLjDc What do people think of this cover version? | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.255.141 |
To sum up the scuffle above: I have my DONNIE DARKO... and Weber has his Nabokov/LOLITA.... | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 82.38.75.85 |
>>Hendrix . . . metal?<< >>I see these older bands as more rock than metal, and the ones I find more interesting usually have elements of other styles, such as blues, folk, and so on. I think Hendrix is more rooted in blues than anything else.<< Sorry, I'm not very good at knowing how to classify these things. The old stuff, anyway - that's what I'm talking about. And, yes, Hendrix (and a lot of the other music I love from that era) is more rooted in the blues - that's why I love it. BTW I don't think I've mentioned on this board that I'm the world's biggest Jethro Tull fan, have I? If anyone says a word against Tull, they'll get a virtual punch on the nose from me. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
Dave Pegg was the only good thing ever to come from Acocks Green. | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.21.235.87 |
Always liked Tull's Thick as a Brick. This was originally meant as a send-up of prog and instead became one of its main statements. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.47 |
Joel, do you have any evidence for your claims that IM are faux-intelligent-literary other than your dislike of their music? Bruce has a HISTORY degree from OXFORD University, not a media studies deghree from Scunthorpe. My brother has a history degree, I saw the amount of work he had to do and the amount of reading. History is probably second only to literature degrees in the amount of reading that's necessary to complete the degree. I'd say that quite good supporting evidence that the frontman of the band is intelligent, well educated and well read. "I didn't say that Bruce Dickinson is stupid, only that he is faux-literary in an adolescent way. Do you really think his having a degree makes that impossible?" I'd say it makes it far more likely that you're wrong in your solipsistic views on the band. Rather than just using phrases like "Weber, do you really think having a degree proves you to be an original creative thinker? If so, you're only person in the world who believes that." to attack me personally for daring to like a band that you don't, give some evidence other than your dislike of their music and maybe I might show your viewpoint some respect. At least my view on the band has supporting evidence outside of my own head. | ||
| Stephen Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
Love Jethro Tull and have the remastered versions of all their classic albums from the 60s & 70s. 'Too Old To Rock 'n' Roll, Too Young To Die' has always been a favourite - highly undervalued imo as is Ian Anderson as a songwriter. I saw them live in the 80s and they were awesome! | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.27.177.149 |
>>>Bruce has a HISTORY degree from OXFORD University, not a media studies deghree from Scunthorpe. My brother has a history degree Not wanting to enter this debate in any other way, but since all degrees are rigorously marked and calibrated by external academics, what difference does it make where you studied for your degree? Is my First from Huddersfield inferior to a First from Oxford? I admit that it lends me less employment power, but that's a separate issue. | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 82.38.75.85 |
>>Love Jethro Tull ... I saw them live in the 80s and they were awesome!<< Stephen - I didn't get to see them live until the 90s, but I've been a regular at their concerts in this neck of the woods since. Sadly, this year, I had to cancel two which I was due to attend (Ian Anderson solos) as I couldn't get there due to my health. But, next year, I've already got my ticket for their concert in York in March - should be able to manage York no matter what state I'm in. Gary - you went to Huddersfield uni? I got my PGCE there, and I taught part time in the Business School there for a little while. In fact, my first academic job (research assistant in Behavioural Sciences) was at Huddersfield. Small world, as they say. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.56 |
It's more the media studies degree vs history degree I was making a point about. The university being one of the most prestigious in the world is a secondary backup to the arguement. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.27.177.149 |
Caroline: yes, I studied, researched and taught in the Behavioural Sciences dept for 7 years. Enjoyable times. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.27.177.149 |
>>>The university being one of the most prestigious in the world is a secondary backup to the arguement. It doesn't back it up, though. For the reason I suggested. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.56 |
It's arguable that entrance to Oxford is more difficult than entrance to Huddersfield. It doesn't make the degree worth more or less but the achievement of getting in in the first place is (in the eyes of most employers at least) more prestigious as the university itself is one of the top rated on the planet. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.240.106 |
Possibly the stupidest person I ever met has a first class degree. Just thought I'd slot that one in, to muddy the waters. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.47 |
The second stupidest person I ever met once turned round in the middle of the warehouse I was working in at the time and asked the foreman, "Dennis, you knaw when wee do this delivery thing and we say pree-noon deeliveray? What's noon?" The stupidest also worked at the warehouse - one day when someone asked him what's 20% of 100 his reply was "How the fuck should I know that!" and an attempt to punch the asker for daring to ask him such a difficult question... | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.27.177.149 |
>>>Possibly the stupidest person I ever met has a first class degree. And all students don't get up till 12 and then spend all my tax on cider and roll-ups and you can't teach common-sense and I've been to the University of Life, lad. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.27.177.149 |
>>>It's arguable that entrance to Oxford is more difficult than entrance to Huddersfield. Arguable? Indisputable. Of course it is. | ||
| Alexicon (Alexicon) Username: Alexicon Registered: 10-2009 Posted From: 88.106.120.2 |
Erm...slightly confused by the above dozen posts. Who is the second-rate writer praised by psycho-pants? Is it Bruce Dickinson,Jimi Hendrix,Ian Anderson,or Gary Fry?> | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.27.177.149 |
It's not me. Despite being second-rate, I'm not praised. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.56 |
No it's me, and I've not even had anything published yet. That Peter Ackroyd's a twat. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.27.177.149 |
Well, the alumni of Dickinson's first college include the following, so he's in august company, at least: Kia Abdullah - Novelist Alia Bano - playwright Dr Thomas Barnardo - Children's philanthropist Sir Malcolm Bradbury - Novelist Bernard Butler - Indie guitarist Peter Caruana - Chief Minister of Gibraltar Graham Chapman - Monty Python star Adrian Chiles - BBC presenter Bruce Dickinson - Member of Iron Maiden Michael Duff - string theorist Baroness Falkender - Politician Romola Garai - Actress Roy Goode - Commercial Lawyer and Author. Sean Gilder - Actor Roger Tan Kor Mee - senior Malaysian lawyer Peter Hain - Labour MP, Former Secretary of State for Work and Pensions and Secretary of State for Wales. Mike Hennessy - Olympic rower Jane Hill - Newsreader, BBC News Ruth Prawer Jhabvala - Novelist and Academy Award winning screenwriter Sir Michael Lyons - Chairman of the BBC Trust Alasdair MacIntyre - philosopher Sir Peter Mansfield - Nobel Prize winning physicist Basil Markesinis - International Lawyer Bill O'Reilly - Host of The O'Reilly Factor on the Fox News Channel Jeremy Phillips - Intellectual Property lawyer. Geoffrey Robertson - Human Rights lawyer Prannoy Roy - Indian journalist Sir Roy Strong - Historian Sir Phillip Leech - Historian James Theaker - Radio personality David Sullivan - Pornographer and owner of the Sport and Sunday Sport newspapers Sir John Meurig Thomas - Chemist Roger Tilling - Broadcaster and voice of University Challenge Kate Williams - Broadcaster and Historian Robert Winston, Baron Winston - Pioneer of in vitro fertilisation Matthew Roberts - Disc Jockey Eleanor Goodwin - Disc Jockey and PR specialist Dr Thomas Dyson - Commercial Lawyer Peter Edward Taylor - Actor Scott Thomas Waldrup - American Ambassador Peter Edwin Harrison - Writer and Director Caroline Spelman - Current Shadow Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government W.G Grace - Cricketer [26] J.G Ballard - Author of Empire Of The Sun and Crash amongst other works.[27] Sarah Waters - Author of Tipping The Velvet.[27] | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.56 |
>>>It's arguable that entrance to Oxford is more difficult than entrance to Huddersfield. Arguable? Indisputable. Of course it is. So if it's more difficult to get into the university in the first place, it's more of an achievement to get in and get a degree than it is to get into Huddersfield and get a degree. So it does back up my point from earlier. So far all Joel's points have been based on the fact that he doesn't like Iron Maiden's music so therefore they must be pretending to ne literate/intelligent. There is verifiable evidence that the frontman at least (I really can't be bothered looking up the qualifications for the rest of the band) is possessed of some measure of intelligence and literacy. But the only response I've had to that point is that I must be stupid myself to think that maybe Joel's biased instincts are wrong and that the evidence of BD's acheivements might be an accurate portrayal of an intelligent and multitalented person. Thank you by the way Joel. I've not had a chance to use the word solipsistic for a while. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.74 |
"Erm...slightly confused by the above dozen posts. Who is the second-rate writer praised by psycho-pants? Is it Bruce Dickinson,Jimi Hendrix,Ian Anderson,or Gary Fry?" Alex, check my posting of 3 November at 2.44. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.27.177.149 |
>>>So if it's more difficult to get into the university in the first place, it's more of an achievement to get in and get a degree than it is to get into Huddersfield and get a degree. So it does back up my point from earlier. Mebbe. Depends how you look at it. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.240.106 |
I went to the polytechnic of hard knocks; it's right next door to the school of disenchantment. I am also the walrus. | ||
| Alexicon (Alexicon) Username: Alexicon Registered: 10-2009 Posted From: 88.106.120.2 |
Thanks,Ramsey - all is clear now. It seems the scamps are squabbling off-topic. Have a quiet word please. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.56 |
I know a joke about a walrus. | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.21.235.87 |
Nope, the walrus was Paul. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.56 |
It can be a joke about an eskimo either, but it's a bit more surreal if you use the walrus | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.27.177.149 |
But beware the Academy of Disingenuousness . . . | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.240.106 |
I teach there, mate. Or do I? (bass-heavy drums; spooky music; a distant scream) | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.27.177.149 |
You at work today? I emailed you this morning. I was in Preston all day yesterday on fieldwork. Oh, the romance: Seville, Stockholm, Preston . . . I'm off to Brentwood next week, but I don't like to brag about it. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.56 |
Brentwood - sounds like a porn version of the Office... | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 82.38.75.85 |
>>Sean Gilder - Actor<< He's played a monster in new Doctor Who. Alex - nice to see you back. Anyway: >>Erm...slightly confused by the above dozen posts. Who is the second-rate writer praised by psycho-pants? Is it Bruce Dickinson,Jimi Hendrix,Ian Anderson,or Gary Fry?<< Definitely NOT Ian Anderson - no way is he a second-rate writer. We do tend to go off on a tangent - I forget where I am sometimes. I think the answer to your question is Nabakov? | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.240.106 |
GF - I'm on a day's holiday. Took a day off to de-stress, write a chapter, and watch dodgy DVDs. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.27.177.149 |
'K. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.56 |
Do you want to hear my walrus joke? | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 82.38.75.85 |
>>Do you want to hear my walrus joke?<< Go on then, Weber ... | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.56 |
>>>Go on then weber>>> You all know who to blame... A walrus is driving through Wales when his car breaks down. While he’s waiting for the mechanic he goes for an ice cream but because of his big flippers (gloves if you use an Eskimo for this joke) he spills half of it down his front. The welsh mechanic finally arrives, looks under the bonnet, looks up at the walrus and says “it looks like you’ve blown a seal.” The walrus says “so what, you fuck sheep!” | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.56 |
I never said it was a good joke. | ||
| Steve Jensen (Stevej) Username: Stevej Registered: 07-2009 Posted From: 82.0.77.233 |
You Welshist. | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 82.38.75.85 |
That actually made me laugh. I used to be such a nice person too. I think hanging around this board is bad for me. Hey, you guys, you've been such a bad influence on me!  | ||
| Steve Jensen (Stevej) Username: Stevej Registered: 07-2009 Posted From: 82.0.77.233 |
*points* Another Welshist! | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 82.38.75.85 |
I'm actually half Welsh, Steve - my dad's from those parts. | ||
| Steve Jensen (Stevej) Username: Stevej Registered: 07-2009 Posted From: 82.0.77.233 |
I'm half Irish anyway, chief, so I'm going to post an Enya video as revenge against the Celtists on this board. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1L8uRApYeQ | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 82.38.75.85 |
.. and my husband's Irish. Who's Enya? | ||
| Steve Jensen (Stevej) Username: Stevej Registered: 07-2009 Posted From: 82.0.77.233 |
Who's Enya?  She was the singer from Clannad, Caroline, now a successful solo singer. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.225.8 |
"Rather than just using phrases like "Weber, do you really think having a degree proves you to be an original creative thinker? If so, you're only person in the world who believes that." to attack me personally for daring to like a band that you don't, give some evidence other than your dislike of their music and maybe I might show your viewpoint some respect." Weber, just stop and look at your own words. Think about how much unreason and wilful misinterpretation is packed into that vitriolic outburst. You are clearly incapable of reading words on the screen as opposed to the words you would like to pretend you have seen. Your characteristic response to any comment that makes you uncomfortable is to twist its meaning into something you feel confident about sneering at. If the point being made is completely lost in the process, so much the better. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.160.33 |
I can see I'll have to do a little more work to clarify this issue, or it will just go round and round. My original claim was twofold. Firstly, that Iron Maiden's lyrics lack literary texture and maturity. Secondly, that having a degree in history does not necessarily mean that you are a good songwriter. Neither of those two statements is about anyone's intelligence. Neither of those two statements is an attack on Weber. That's really all I can say. | ||
| Alexicon (Alexicon) Username: Alexicon Registered: 10-2009 Posted From: 88.106.120.41 |
'Alex,nice to see you back' Nice to see you again,Carolinec. I think it's calm enough at the moment on here for me to enquire after your health and general wellbeing. All good? I have a strange story to tell you about one of our locum doctors who was convinced I was Ian Anderson when he met me. Remarkably,he looked like Cream's Ginger Baker. I kid you not - the ensuing consultation was pretty hilarious. In the end,I actually had to prompt him to ask me what was wrong with me,so I did eventually manage to exit the surgery with some antibiotics. One day I'll give you chapter and verse on it. My best encounter with the NHS so far! I'd better go cos I fear the chairs and bottles will be flying again here soon. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.232.172 |
Good to see you back, Alex. No, I don't think Barmageddon (it'll end in beers) needs to break loose because someone can't see his fave band criticised without throwing a tantrum. I don't dislike the Maiden because they are a hard rock band. I dislike them because they have forged a popular and lucrative identification of hard rock with foolish adolescent posturing and lazy post-prog appropriation of classic literature. They're the Alan Parsons Project of metal. Hard rock bands that strike me as obviously better than Iron Maiden and far more worthy of our time include Metallica, Nirvana, Pearl Jam, Soundgarden, Judas Priest, Black Sabbath, Led Zeppelin, Trivium, Adrenaline... | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 06-2008 Posted From: 86.152.176.232 |
Isn't music music, whatever the clutter outside the music? | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.21.235.87 |
Incredible that you shouldn't know who Enya is, Carolinec. I thought everybody'd heard "Orinoco Flow". | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.74 |
"Thanks,Ramsey - all is clear now. It seems the scamps are squabbling off-topic. Have a quiet word please." To be honest, Alex, I rather despair of the way threads on this board are frequently hijacked by peripheral or even unrelated subjects. It's why I often don't read threads on here to the end. If only posters would start a new thread if the subject is new! | ||
| Alexicon (Alexicon) Username: Alexicon Registered: 10-2009 Posted From: 88.106.94.51 |
'...the Alan Parsons Project of metal.' Joel - that cracks me up! The ultimate demolition job, and little short of brilliant. More please. Daren't get into the music debate personally cos I'm rabidly fanatical about musicians nobody else seems to have heard of.Hence,to start proselytizing here would be construed as both elitist and boring. But please keep up the heated debate,folks: it's far more entertaining for me than crouching mindlessly over a decaying keyboard typing the-cat-sat-on-the-mat over an over again. | ||
| Alexicon (Alexicon) Username: Alexicon Registered: 10-2009 Posted From: 88.106.94.51 |
The problem is,Ramsey,it's so seductive. As you can see,even I - a most disciplined 'on-threader' - have succumbed to the chaos and nonsense. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.193.23 |
Incredible that you shouldn't know who Enya is, Carolinec. I thought everybody'd heard "Orinoco Flow". If you've ever stood in a hotel lobby, you've heard Enya. | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 82.38.75.85 |
>>'Alex,nice to see you back' Nice to see you again,Carolinec. I think it's calm enough at the moment on here for me to enquire after your health and general wellbeing. All good? I have a strange story to tell you about one of our locum doctors who was convinced I was Ian Anderson when he met me.<< Alex - my health is never particularly brilliant, but my wellbeing is pretty good as I've just managed half a day at a Doctor Who convention. "Tired but happy" best describes me at the moment. You don't really look like Ian Anderson, do you? I'm even more curious as to who you actually are now! Steve, Hubert, Proto - don't forget, I'm an oldie - that's why I haven't heard of these more up-to-date music people. I probably have heard Orinoco Flow, but I wouldn't have known what it was! Ramsey - I'm now somewhat concerned that you aren't happy with the way we go off topic. I'm afraid I've been used to a few message boards which regularly went off topic, and seeing it happen here too I just "go with the flow". No harm's meant by it. Can you forgive us? After all, it's your board. | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.22.227.14 |
I rather despair of the way threads on this board are frequently hijacked by peripheral or even unrelated subjects It is unavoidable. Doesn't this sort of thing happen with real conversations too? | ||
| Alexicon (Alexicon) Username: Alexicon Registered: 10-2009 Posted From: 88.106.84.212 |
Er,no,Caroline. I.A. is now bald,neat and respectable. One could easily mistake him for an everyday business consultant. I think what sent the doc - 'Ginger Baker' - wobbly was the hirsute image of I.A as he was 30 years ago. It's the hair and the beard wot dunnit. Better go...I see Mr. C frowning again | ||
| Dave_mathew (Dave_mathew) Username: Dave_mathew Registered: 11-2009 Posted From: 92.1.47.7 |
On the subject of music meeting literature... I have no way of checking the validity of what I've copied below, but if it's true it is absolutely fascinating. It's long been rumoured that Bob Dylan and Thomas Pynchon knew each other in the 60s; there are rumours that they are still friends now. But if what I've found is true, Dylan actually wrote 'Desolation Row' based entirely on Pynchon references. It could be nonsense, but if so, someone has gone to a lot of effort to produce this nonsense! > The letter, dated 01 April 1960, from Dylan to Pynchon settles this dispute. > > Tommy, > > Got the ha shshshshshs ...never know who's listening in and picking > through my trash. Sorry not to return yours sooner ...been working on > a new song. It's gonna blow the mid of the world. I've enclosed a > draft. Let me know what you think. > > Keep Cool But Hairy, > > Zim > > Mason is at the Friday Hangings. > Frenesi is Going Down. > The Sailor's Grave is full of sailors. > Pig Bodine is back in town. > Here comes Ronald Ray-Gun. > They've got him in a trance. > One hand is tied to V.'s Balloon. > The other is in his pants. > And the riot squads they're restless. > They need some place to go. > As Brock and Frenesi make love tonight > Out on Desolation Row. > > Fina, she seems so easy. > "Benny, I'm Cherry," she smiles. > And puts her hand in her back pocket, > Hector Zuniga style. > And in comes Stencil, he's moaning, > "Stencil's In Love with V-2!" > And Slothrop says, "your in the wrong book my friend, > I'm getting out with you." > And the only sound that's left tonight > After the Auctioneer Clears His Throat > Is Zoyd Wheeler sweeping glass > From Wagner's haunted boat. > > Now the Thanatoids are waking > Now everybody sing > Hansel and Gretel are baking > And Kong is Lord and King > Not DL and Takeshi > Not McClintock and Owlglass > Not anyone is making love > But inflicting pain, Alas. > But The Weather Will Not Change > As above, so below > Where Profane and Angel Make A Myth > For Gravity's great rainbow > > Now Lake, she's no daddy's girl > For her I feel so afraid > She's wearing her Moma's professional dress > She won't be no Miner's old maid > To her, death is quite romantic > Cause she can not love success > Her profession's her religion > Her sin is her lifelessness > And though her eyes are fixed upon > Gravity's great rainbow > She spends her time peeking into Entropy boxes > Out on Yo-yo-dyne Row > > Tesla, disguised as Robin Hood > With his lightning in a trunk > Passed this way an hour ago > With Edison, both were drunk. > They looked so immaculately frightful > With Franklin and Kite in tow, > As they hitched a ride from the Chums of Chance > out to where Pirate's mushrooms grow > Now you would not think to look at them twice > But they were all famous long ago > For playing ukuleles in a glass armonica band > On Desolation Row > > Dr. Hilarious he keeps his world > Inside a windowpane > But all his crazy patients > Are convinced that the good doctor is insane > Now his nurse, a victim of rhinoplasty > She's in charge of the Dynamite LSD > And she also keeps the Waite Tarot cards > Under a lock and Key > They all play hide the dynamite > You can hear them when they blow > If you lean your head out far enough > From Desolation Row > > Across the street they've built a tower > They're getting ready for the feast > Barbequed Brains and Danish #9 > A Herero Soldier and a Bad Priest > They will spoon-feed James Wood > To get him to feel more assured > Then they'll kill him with cartoons and self-confidence > After poisoning him with words > Then Dixon will land or not land a Quaker's mighty blow > And set all the enslaved persons free > Out on Desolation Row > > Now at midnight Vibes agents > And the whole sick crew > Come out and round up everyone > That knows more than they do > Then they bring them to Ellison's paint factory > Where the Entropy machine > Is fastened to their foreheads > and run on Standard Oil kerosene > Is brought in from the white house > By investment bankers who go > Check to see that nobody is escaping > To Desolation Row > > Praise be to Zeros and Ones > The Ship of Fools sails at dawn > And everybody's shouting > 'Which Side Are You On?' > And Ezra Pound and T.S. Eliot > Fighting in the captain's tower > While calypso singers laugh at them > And hippie girls place flowers > Into the guns of Pinkertons > Where Blicero snorts white blow > And nobody has to think too much > About Desolation row > > Tom, I received your letter yesterday > (About the time the doorknob broke) > When you asked me how I was doing > Was that some kind of joke > All these people that I mention > Yes, we know them, they're quite lame > So please rearrange their faces > And give them all another name > Right now, I can't read too good > Don't send me no more letters no > Not unless you mail them > From Desolation Row | ||
| Simon Strantzas (Nomis) Username: Nomis Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 99.227.90.149 |
"It could be nonsense, but if so, someone has gone to a lot of effort to produce this nonsense! " Welcome to the internet, Dave. | ||
| Dave_mathew (Dave_mathew) Username: Dave_mathew Registered: 11-2009 Posted From: 92.23.22.240 |
Many thanks, Simon. | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 80.47.117.174 |
Welcome to the board, Dave. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 06-2008 Posted From: 86.152.176.232 |
This board is the internet. | ||
| Dave_mathew (Dave_mathew) Username: Dave_mathew Registered: 11-2009 Posted From: 92.23.22.240 |
I've just realised what Simon meant. Sorry to be thick - I had only been up an hour or so when I posted and I hadn't had my coffees! Cheers Allybird. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.153.150.116 |
'I rather despair of the way threads on this board are frequently hijacked by peripheral or even unrelated subjects' It is unavoidable. Doesn't this sort of thing happen with real conversations too? I've long felt that Ramsey is perhaps a bit annoyed by us for this. It made me feel distant from the board for a while, that I had found a place that was very me but that I in some way wasn't welcome here. And it saddened me that Ramsey didn't like that we talked so much and were so relaxed, unlike other boards. It was like he couldn't see our warmth, that it was irrelevant somehow. I tried telling myself it was just me, though, in the end - after all we all want to feel our favourite people 'like' us. I tried to join the 'fun' board run by the folk off Spaced - Simon Pegg and so - but it was so dryly run, and they emailed you if you went off topic or brought up something already mentioned elsewhere. It felt like it was telling me off for not reading every post and thread and following the whole of what was a very large forum. I didn't bother going back; that level of 'fun' wasn't for me. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.153.150.116 |
And, goddammit, it just feels like the suppression of what comes naturally to us, what feels like one of the last joys left to us; to talk. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.153.150.116 |
I'm sorry if that sounded rantish, and if there are good reasons why we should stick on topic. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
Read whatVramsey said again. He's not annoyed that we go off topic - he just wishes we'd start new threads for new topics, which makes it easier to follow: If only posters would start a new thread if the subject is new! | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.153.150.116 |
I think the off-topicky bits here are bits we know wouldn't justify a thread, though. Just little asides. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.153.150.116 |
That said, when I start a thread and it goes off-topic quickly or inorganically it can be quite hurtful. Maybe that's what has happened. I'm sick to my death of having to second guess every fricking thought I have, continually realising I've been wrong all along, every step of my life. Anyone else get that? For instance I was so miserable this morning I emailed this poor author woman about her book, only for the email to morph into this thing about how stupid and sucky I was and how I was completely going off the rails. I seem to be clinging the leg of anyone who passes at the moment, asking them all to help me. See? Doing it now. I hope I don't feel alone in being like this. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
Er...no, I never feel like that. I'm confident in my life decisions. Even the wrong ones. It's all one huge learning curve, and you do your best at the time. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.153.150.116 |
Part of my problem is seeing and recognising good advice but not following it. It's like a disability. I feel like a fucking Jonah, that bloke jumping off the ship in Master and Commander. Just don't go mentioning how good Master and Commander was. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
Tony, you need to take control of your life. It took me 30 years to learn that. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 147.252.230.126 |
Gotta go and give a lecture now, but I'll just say that I agree with Zed, but it's something you can do with baby steps at first, to gain confidence. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.153.150.116 |
I seem unable to, Zed. Completely. | ||
| Stephen Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
Tony, I'd tell your doctor about how you're feeling... there may be a solid medical reason for it. To me it sounds like clinical depression and there are lots of treatments that can help. I had a cousin who sounded almost exactly like you and telling his doctor was the first step on the road to recovery. Keep well whatever you do. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.56 |
Joel. I actually agree with you about some of the bands that are better than Maiden. However, I go to about 40 odd gigs every year, allowing 2.5 bands per concert (either 1 or 2 support acts a time) add in the six festivals I've been to and even allowing for seeing bands multiple times It's a conservative estimate that I've seen 800 or so bands in the last 8 years. Iron Maiden are easily in the top ten best bands I've seen live with one of teh best performaces I've ever seen on a music stage. While I rarely listen to a couple of their early albums I think Seventh Son is easily one of the best albums of the 80's (along with the Black Album, Wish you were Here and Pet shop boys' Actually). I will also concede that having a degree does not necessarily mean you're more creative intelligent, but it swings the odds in your favour. Look at the list of alumni from his college at Oxford. It appears it's a college that strongly nurtures talent and creativity. So far all your comments have been vitriolic and I'm struggling to work out how "it's derivative and adolescent and shows a sluggish desire to be perceived as intelligent without having to think too hard. " is not calling the actual intelligence and maturity of the people in question into question. And how is ""Weber, do you really think having a degree proves you to be an original creative thinker? If so, you're only person in the world who believes that." not an attack on me personally? You claim that i'm wilfully misrepresenting your statements but you then edit them and completely ignore any points that have been made that contradict you. I have asked you to provide evidence for your claims that are not merely based on your bias against the band and all I have received is "You are clearly incapable of reading words on the screen as opposed to the words you would like to pretend you have seen. Your characteristic response to any comment that makes you uncomfortable is to twist its meaning into something you feel confident about sneering at. If the point being made is completely lost in the process, so much the better." and "someone can't see his fave band criticised without throwing a tantrum. " more personal abuse. I could reply to that in kind but I really can't be bothered. You state "My original claim was twofold. Firstly, that Iron Maiden's lyrics lack literary texture and maturity. Secondly, that having a degree in history does not necessarily mean that you are a good songwriter. " That's not how you phrased it originally. If you'd phrased it that way I would have said fair enough, that's your opinion. Instead you made the sluggish etc comment quoted above. And I've certainly not thrown as many tantrums on this subject as you have. I like Iron Maiden. You clearly don't. End of subject | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.56 |
I got something wrong in that last post, sorry. this started with Joel jumping in with "And, for that matter, in what way is Lolita shit that Iron Maiden isn't?" to which I gave a reasonable response. Now that sounds to me like someone throwing a tantrum because someone criticised his fave book. That's end of subject. It's all Craig's fault anyway for bring up the lolita reference in the Police song. | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.182.201 |
Zed: "grab life's challenges by the balls and squeeze like fuck" is more or less the way you put it a few years ago, if I remember correctly. Good advice! | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
That about sums it up for me. Even when I'm depressed, I manage to remember this and pull myself out of it. Tony: only you can do this. Only you. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
Weber, I'm reacting intermittently while busy with a lot else and with other issues on my mind. I haven't made a great job of maintaining dialogue. I think we've both over-reacted and I apologise for my side of that. Tony – sorry you're having a bad time at present. I often feel the Internet makes it easy for communication to deteriorate because it freezes in a 'permanent' form what should be fluid and negotiable. When I don't feel able to communicate effectively, and it happens quite a bit, I restrict myself to puns and/or lightweight topics. Trying to put forward serious views when you don't feel coherent in yourself is rather like trying to dance when your trousers have split: it's not a good idea, but you can always choose not to do it. If things aren't making sense to you, don't try to resolve them online. Just focus on your immediate situation, yourself, your family, your home, work and friends. Think about the actual relationships you are currently maintaining. You may not be making nearly as bad a job of all that as you think. The Internet is infested with people who try to communicate when they don't know how to exist: they overcompensate with pushy opinions for their lack of any real sense of being in the world (to borrow what used to be a staple Gary expression). There's no need for it. Take care, everyone. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.153.150.116 |
Thanks for that, Joel, Zed, et al. We've just had a strange week involving finding this near skeletal abandoned greyhound we can't help put weight on that killed one of our chickens; I've just had to call the pound to take it away, little realising the kids would be away when it happened - when they get back it'll not be here. The dog is quite ill, I think, and I was a bit off with it for every mistake it made (it was shitting all over the place). I wasn't up to the task of looking after it; it was horrible seeing it go this morning, and I hugged it before it went - something I've not done since it arrived, and should have done. It was just the sense of unfairness. Also I'm not with it when it comes to being a dad right now; youngest nearly late again this morning and I went off it, hating him for not having them ready, me for not having checked that he had, and the school for giving detention if you forget your tie. Too many things, all small. On top of it Mind charges you a tenner an hour now, to go see them. Dammit. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
Joel's right: this online gubbins isn't real life, it's light relief at best a waste of energy at worst. Focus on the things that matter. The real stuff. | ||
| Stephen Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
Taking the internet lightly doesn't mean one shouldn't respond to a cry for help when one hears one. To pretend anything else is what I call pussyfooting around. These online thoughts don't come from nowhere... I'm genuinely concened about Tony (whether I've met him or not doesn't come into it) and I would like to see him sorted and happy. If he can't do that by himself then it is up to us to recognise that fact and rally round the guy as friends. He's obviously a sensitive soul (perhaps too much so for his own good) and that's the worst that can be said about him... I wish I were half so worthy of respect. | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 82.38.75.85 |
Tony - I don't know what else to say that everyone else hasn't already said, but it sounds like you've been having a difficult time of it recently. Like Stephen's just said, you seem like a sensitive soul, and I'd say a really nice guy into the bargain. It sounds like you've got a loving family. Yes, of course, get yourself straight in the "real world", with those that really matter like your family, but I know it can certainly help to have internet friends, even if you've never met them, that you can call on for a bit of advice. With my illness, I visit a forum where people talk about their problems to do with the illness and so on. It's a great source of advice and support for everyone who uses it. I know this forum isn't for that purpose of course, but, yes, I'd like to think that people here would respond to any cries for help they hear here (hear here?!? - sorry about that). As someone said above, Tony, a visit to the doctors to explain how you feel might be in order? They might be able to offer you any help you need to deal with things? A friend of mine, who suffers from depression as well as chronic fatigue, has dealings with the Depression Alliance - it might be worth looking them up. And now we're well and truly off topic again - sorry, Ramsey, but I really feel for Tony here so I have to comment, to try to help as best I can. I am going to try to be more careful to stay on topic in future threads though - but I can't guarantee I'll manage it! | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 213.158.199.85 |
Hope you feel better soon, Tone. Seriously mate. | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 80.47.117.174 |
Life is full of difficulty, Tony, and sometimes the way to get through is to focus on doing things that might seem - way too simple to others. I'm becoming quite withdrawn for many reasons but I've been sorting the house out around me (believe me - so many things need sorting) but methodically I've been putting things right in my mind too. Tiny things - dashing to the shops and putting some bulbs in pots for the spring...putting bird feeders up in the garden that crash to the ground hours later...baking cakes which all failed bar one but that tasted so good. I fail each day but nothing will ever, ever - stop me from getting up and trying again. | ||
| Simon Strantzas (Nomis) Username: Nomis Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 38.113.181.169 |
I've just realised what Simon meant. Sorry to be thick - I had only been up an hour or so when I posted and I hadn't had my coffees! Well, my curmudgeonly behaviour aside, welcome to the board, too. | ||
| Dave_mathew (Dave_mathew) Username: Dave_mathew Registered: 11-2009 Posted From: 92.19.120.53 |
Thanks! |