| Author | Message | ||
     Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 82.38.75.85 |
No, that isn't a philosophical question - I don't mean "is there horror in the world all around us?" (the answer to that is probably "yes" anyway  ). What I mean is, does horror crop up in all kinds of literature? The reason I ask is that I've recently been reading some things I don't generally read - primarily as I've been tidying up the last few bits for Pantechnicon. For example, I've just read a straightforward SF story - but the sense of tension and fear which the author creates in the build up to an alien invasion certainly struck me as horror. Similarly, a nice bit of steampunk (which I'm not particularly familiar with but beginning to like) contained, in my opinion, a fair amount of horror as the protaganist waited for his expected beating from the "bad guy" (or bad automaton, in this case). Then, if you think about good old crime thrillers - well, there can't be much more horrifying than being the victim of a brutal murder, or even getting inside the head of the murderer themselves. (this link between horror and thrillers might be the reason why writers like Michael Marshall Smith, Mark Morris and Stephen Gallagher seem to switch so easily between these genres?) So, am I seeing horror in all literature where there is really none, or is horror more pervasive than most people realise? Any thoughts on this please, folks? | ||
| Steve Jensen (Stevej) Username: Stevej Registered: 07-2009 Posted From: 82.0.77.233 |
Your post reminded me of Steve Bacon's words, in an interview, Caroline: 'I’m an advocate of what Douglas Winter famously said: horror is simply an emotion rather than a genre, and can exist in any kind of story.' | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 06-2008 Posted From: 86.171.167.11 |
Yes all fiction litrature, I have long thought, is Horror literature. I've called it 'The Ominous Imagination' - common to all fictioneers, however hard they try to disguise it in humour, romance etc. Everything has an unhappy ending .... in the ominous imagination, even if it's understated or entirely unsaid. | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 80.47.89.2 |
Horror is everywhere in literature - in Wuthering Heights...in Titus Andronicus... in fairy tales... in real life reflected in fiction. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.212.87 |
Horror and weirdness are (nearly) everywhere, but there is still a supernatural horror genre. Likewise, love is (nearly) everywhere but there is still a romance genre. Desire is (nearly) everywhere but there is still a genre of erotic literature. That's what happens when an emotionally loaded aspect of life takes over and becomes the main theme. The supernatural horror genre is where the weirdness has taken over, changed the rules and remade literary practice in its own distorted image. That's why we like it there. And the horror in genre fiction is often more structured, with deeper roots, than in literature generally. Weird fiction is a distinct type of storytelling, with its own underlying metaphors and messages that appear limited from the outside and infinite from the inside. It's more than just an emotion: it's a language, a sensibility, a way of seeing. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 06-2008 Posted From: 86.171.167.11 |
Yes, but all genres make the big family of literature. Genres are those areas of literature that simply don't or can't reach the edges where they might risk over-lapping with another genre. | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 82.38.75.85 |
>>Genres are those areas of literature that simply don't or can't reach the edges where they might risk over-lapping with another genre.<< That's it, Des, I think I'm seeing CROSS-genre everywhere I look! I seem to be finding it difficult to categorise and say "yes, that's SF, or that's horror, etc." I guess some works are obvious - and supernatural horror would be one of those - but others are far less obvious, and those that we tend to think of as non-horror often have a horror element anyway. I'm reminded of talking to someone at a Doctor Who convention recently who told me that no way could she read/watch horror as it was too scary, yet she loved Doctor Who (which, to me, has always been more horror than SF). Anyway, thanks, folks, for your comments on this so far. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.240.106 |
It's all horror. All of it. Everywhere. Just some of it is diluted with other stuff. | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.22.228.92 |
Reread the opening paragraph of Lovecraft's "The Call of Cthulhu". Everything in it still holds true today. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.74 |
I had a go at this theme in my contribution to The Book of Lists: Horror, Caroline (a list of books I claimed on behalf of the field though they're not usually regarded as part of it). Indeed, I was one of three contributors who did. | ||
| Stu (Stu) Username: Stu Registered: 04-2008 Posted From: 86.29.179.156 |
Basically stories are there to entertain and there are lots of different ways to be entertaining. Some of them involve horror, some don't. Even if a story is trying to be profound there are lots of ways to do this too. Some of them involve horror, some don't. But of course people see what they want to see. So fans of particular approaches to fiction will often claim stories for their favourite genre even though the stories could just as easily be claimed by completely different genres or even labelled as cross-genre. Eg I've been told by horror fans that The Road is DEFINITELY a horror story whereas SF fans tell me it's DEFINITELY SF and literary types tell me that it's DEFINITELY Literature. So in answer to your question, yes you're seeing horror in all literature even where is none (except for the occasions that said literature really does contain horror) and yes horror is more pervasive than most people realise (except when it isn't). I hope that clears everything up. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.240.106 |
I've realised lately that there's no such thing as genre; just people's perceptions of it. I've been told by horror fans that The Road is DEFINITELY a horror story whereas SF fans tell me it's DEFINITELY SF and literary types tell me that it's DEFINITELY Literature. That's a good quote to explain what I mean. | ||
| Richard_gavin (Richard_gavin) Username: Richard_gavin Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 65.110.174.71 |
Good points raised by all. Perhaps horror is a shading or a spice that can be added to the "recipe" of any story? Some people do not care for spicy things, so they may want only a dash of darkness in their fiction, just enough to make it interesting. Others can't get it spicy enough. I do think Joel is correct in his statement about there being a recognizable genre of weird or supernatural horror, but perhaps genre horror is simply the strain of fiction where the horror "spice" is more prevelant or dominant than it is in other types of fiction? The distinction of genre-horror may just be a question of the degree to which its dark elements are made manifest. "Mild" tales can be argued as being "literary" or "speculative" fiction (if one feels the need to do so), whereas an eye-watering, five-alarm, can-smell-the-spices-coming-from-the-other-room type of story might fit more neatly into a genre. Now if you'll excuse me, all this talk of books has made me hungry. | ||
| Richard_gavin (Richard_gavin) Username: Richard_gavin Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 65.110.174.71 |
Oh, and Des, your theory about all fiction being the product of the Ominous Imagination is just wonderful. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
Richard, your analogy between weird fiction and curry has much resonance for this board. It also has considerable explanatory power – for example, one could compare devotees of the blandly 'traditional' ghost story to those who insist that a chicken korma is the most 'subtle' of curries, while enthusiasts of the sub-Romero gorefest could be compared with those who insist that after twelve pints of lager, only a volcanic chicken phaal is good enough. Me, I like Thai red curries: they don't burn your mouth, but they go quietly to work on your system and an hour later you are sweating and weeping chilli. I'll leave you to consider what kind of weird fiction offers a parallel experience. | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 82.38.75.85 |
>>Now if you'll excuse me, all this talk of books has made me hungry.<< I love that! Made me chuckle.  Interesting points from everyone. It seems I am seeing horror where perhaps there is none (or, not a lot anyway), but I'm clearly not alone in doing that. I mean (getting a bit philosophical here) what is this thing called "genre" anyway? What's the point of trying to classify something? Surely, in saying work must fit a certain category, we're restricting creative freedom - stopping writers from writing "outside the box"? Give me cross-genre, outside-the-box writing any day. | ||
| Richard_gavin (Richard_gavin) Username: Richard_gavin Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 65.110.174.71 |
I love it, Joel! I'm a Thai red curry man as well, both for metaphor and for meal. So, who's up for a RCMB dinner at a virtual curry house? | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 82.38.75.85 |
Oh, I'm afraid I don't like curry though. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 06-2008 Posted From: 86.171.167.11 |
I put chili powder on all my meals (not only curries). Always with lime pickle, too. | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 82.38.75.85 |
 Bluuuugh! Now you're making me feel sick, Des. | ||
| Steve Jensen (Stevej) Username: Stevej Registered: 07-2009 Posted From: 82.0.77.233 |
Even Pot Noodle curry makes me faint.  I love curry, but I have to eat the weakest curries known to Man - I can't take hot food at all. Now, in the social circles in which I've always been obliged to frequent (ie in factory jobs), it's considered 'the mark of a man' if one can eat the world's hottest, nigh-on volcanic curries, and sink about 300 pints per night...so you can imagine how well-respected I am by my peers, what with my halves of Coke, curry flavour crisps, not to mention my Dostoyevsky books... | ||
| Stu (Stu) Username: Stu Registered: 04-2008 Posted From: 86.29.191.119 |
I'm far too lazy to write anything new on this topic right now so here's a quote from an interview I did a few years back. (God, don't you hate it when people quote themselves as if they're quoting Plato or Nietzsche or someone else who's IQ actually makes it past single figures?) "I have a theory -- well, not really a theory, more of an idle musing -- that after a certain point genre ceases to exist. Once you get past the genre trappings of vampires, starships, elves, wisecracking private eyes etc what separates different types of story is tone. How funny is the story? How scary? How romantic? All stories contain elements of light and shade; it’s like I was saying earlier about horror containing elements of humour. The trick is to blend the different moods and tones effectively, have them bleed seamlessly into each other. Learn to master different tones and you can write whatever you want. Unfortunately I haven’t mastered it yet." | ||
| Stephen Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
There's certainly plenty of horror in Asimov's 'Foundation Saga'. In fact I'm finding the Mule character and what he/it can do positively terrifying. I am unaware if anyone else has commented on this but the parallels with the 'Omen Trilogy' are quite startling. I wonder if David Seltzer was an Asimov fan?! | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.56 |
David selzer only wrote the first Omen novel. Joseph Howard wrote number 2 and Gordon Magill wrote the next 3 novels. | ||
| Stephen Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
The section of 'Foundation' regarding the Mule reminds me of the original 'Omen' novel and the trilogy of films that followed. Don't want to say more than that to avoid spoilers. Of course the parallels with the Book of Revelation may have been deliberate on Asimov's part given as he also wrote extensively on the Bible and its effect on human history. Fascinating stuff! |