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Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey)
Username: Ramsey

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 195.93.21.74
Posted on Wednesday, January 13, 2010 - 03:05 pm:   

I blush to admit that I've always had a blind spot about Fidelio, but no longer - not since watching Bernstein's Vienna version on DVD. It inspires me to watch more operas rather than just listening to them. I'm sure I'm not the first to say that the opera begins as Mozart and ends as Beethoven, but now instead of finding this a problem I think it's very moving.

Now if someone would just find a complete print of Ambersons before I die...

Which prompts me to reflect that there's been some yapping elsewhere about the notion that I'm afraid what will happen to my reputation when I die. Not true, I'm afraid, and whoever may have said it (or been quoted as saying it) doesn't make it so. All that concerns me is that my family do well after I'm gone. Otherwise I'll have more important things to do once I'm dead, such as visiting people who deserve it.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 129.11.76.230
Posted on Wednesday, January 13, 2010 - 03:16 pm:   

I never got on with Fidelio, either. It has four different overtures, I believe (the first so devastating, it kills the rest of the work), and Beethoven really struggled with it. He wasn't a natural composer for voice, though the Missa Solemnis is immense, as is the 'Chorale' movement 4.
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 06-2008
Posted From: 86.169.220.102
Posted on Wednesday, January 13, 2010 - 03:34 pm:   

I once saw the earlier version 'Leonora'. Although I love Beethoven, generally, I can't enjoy this his only opera. In view of the above, perhaps I should try again.

My favourite operas are 'Parsifal' by Wagner, 'Pelleas and melisande' by Debussy and 'Akhnaten' by Philip Glass.
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Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey)
Username: Ramsey

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 195.93.21.74
Posted on Wednesday, January 13, 2010 - 04:09 pm:   

I ought to warn folk (if you need it) that Bernstein follows Mahler's lead in playing the third version of the overture between the two scenes of the second act. I even liked that effect, and it does give the singers a break before the horrendous demands of the finale.
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 75.5.15.80
Posted on Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 02:19 am:   

Ramsey, in googling The Magnificent Ambersons on the off chance that it had been found when I wasn't looking (it hasn't), I came across another apparently highly-sought-after lost film, still lost, called 4 Devils, directed by Fritz Lang. I've never heard of this film - have you?

If the lost portions of Metropolis can be found after all this time, who knows...? There's always hope....
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Ian Alexander Martin (Iam)
Username: Iam

Registered: 10-2009
Posted From: 64.180.64.74
Posted on Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 04:09 am:   

The last I heard, the Criterion version was the closest anyone figures that The Magnificent Ambersons will get to being 'complete', but that is the version that has two or three DVDs in the box and the purchaser is left to decide which version is the 'right' one of the three available (one of which is Welles's version done as a sop to the Studio Moguls).

On that note, perhaps if they can create a Welles's approved version of Touch of Evil solely from the studio edit and the remaining bits, perhaps they can create some sort of decent version of his Don Quixote? Maybe?
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Allybird (Allybird)
Username: Allybird

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 80.47.71.202
Posted on Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 10:49 am:   

I can't get enough of the documentaries about Orson Welles. Watched another last night introduced by Simon Callow (I've also got the biography written by him too). I find Welles witty, charming and he had a great sense of humour.
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Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 213.219.8.243
Posted on Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 11:06 am:   

Fritz Lang...now there's a fine director. Never heard of 4 Devils, Craig. Do you have any more info?
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Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 213.219.8.243
Posted on Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 11:07 am:   

Craig, it's F.W. Murnau not lang:

http://www.elbrendel.com/2008/11/4-devils-1928.html
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Stephen Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 12:34 pm:   

I love classical music and have a huge CD collection but have to admit I've never been able to get into opera.

I can imagine watching a live opera one is familiar with must be an incredible experience though...
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Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 194.176.105.56
Posted on Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 12:46 pm:   

I went to see Bizet's Carmen through my St John activities a few years ago. One of my work colleagues (a regular opera-goer) had paid for tickets to see it the following night.

When I got to work the day that morning he asked me what I thought of it and my initial reaction was "She was a bloody tart and she deserved to die"

My colleague was much offended by my summation of the story, claiming it was a classic tale of love and grief etc.

the next day, I asked him what he thought of it. His reaction - "She was a bloody tart and deserved to die. You were right"
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.27.21.184
Posted on Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 01:19 pm:   

John Self is real, no matter what Amis says about character.
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Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 194.176.105.56
Posted on Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 01:50 pm:   

???
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Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 194.176.105.56
Posted on Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 01:51 pm:   

Enlighten me
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.27.21.184
Posted on Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 02:17 pm:   

That's quite a challenge . . .


"Luckily I must have seen the film or the TV spin-off of Othello, for despite its dropped aitch the musical version stuck pretty faithfully to a plot I knew well. The language problem remained a problem but the action I could follow without that much effort. The flash spade general arrives to take up a position on some island, in the olden days there, bringing with him the Lady-Di figure as his bride. Then she starts diddling one of his lieutenants, a funloving kind of guy whom I took to immediately. Same old story. Now she tries one of these double-subtle numbers on her husband – you know, always rooting for the boyfriend and singing his praises. But Othello’s sidekick is on to them, and, hoping to do himself some good, tells all to the guvnor. This big spade, though, he can’t or won’t believe it. A classic situation. Well, love is blind, I thought, and shifted in my seat."

--from Money, Martin Amis
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Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 194.176.105.56
Posted on Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 02:38 pm:   

Ah! Abuse. that figures.

But look at the salient points in the case of Carmen - young soldier meets gypsy girl and falls madly, passionately in love with her. She says she feels the same for him, persuades him to desert the army - which puts an automatic death sentence on his head - join a group of smugglers - which places another death sentence on his head - and then a few weeks later she says "Bored now - I fancy that bullfighter instead, I don't care that you've totally destroyed your life because I said I loved you, go away".

She was a tart, and deserved to die before she wrecked some other poor sod's life.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.27.21.184
Posted on Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 02:53 pm:   

"falls madly, passionately in love with her" - language suggests helplessness on his part, almost as if he was bewitched

"She says she feels the same for him" - language hints at possible dishonesty on her part from the outset

"persuades him to desert the army" - language suggests proaction on her part alone; he again makes appears to make no choice
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Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 213.219.8.243
Posted on Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 02:56 pm:   

That's a great balanced view you have of women, Weber.
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Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 194.176.105.56
Posted on Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 02:59 pm:   

all the more reason that she was a tart.

I feel like Proto discussing requiem for a Dream - talking like this about a classic.
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Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey)
Username: Ramsey

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 195.93.21.74
Posted on Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 02:59 pm:   

"The last I heard, the Criterion version was the closest anyone figures that The Magnificent Ambersons will get to being 'complete', but that is the version that has two or three DVDs in the box and the purchaser is left to decide which version is the 'right' one of the three available (one of which is Welles's version done as a sop to the Studio Moguls)."

Ian, stop trying to give me a heart attack! I think you have Mr Arkadin in mind.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.27.21.184
Posted on Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 03:01 pm:   

Well, Weber, if that's what happened, that's what happened. You saw it with your own eyes, after all.
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Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 194.176.105.56
Posted on Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 03:08 pm:   

If we assume that it was deceit, that makes her just a real danger to men everywhere. If we assume that she has no control over herself, that makes her just as much of a danger.

Whether she could control herself or not, she deserved to die.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.27.21.184
Posted on Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 03:15 pm:   

As I suggested above, you question her control or lack thereof, and yet don't question his.
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Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 194.176.105.56
Posted on Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 03:19 pm:   

It's a well known fact that when a man starts thinking with his dangly bits he has no control. we really are pathetic creatures sometimes.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.27.21.184
Posted on Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 03:21 pm:   

And what a danger we are to women, eh?
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Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 194.176.105.56
Posted on Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 03:38 pm:   

That's an entirely separate subject to the storyline of Carmen.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.27.21.184
Posted on Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 03:43 pm:   

So is yours, I see:

"Carmen's temper flares when José says he must leave, but he makes her listen by producing the flower she threw at him, which he kept while he was in prison and is proof of his love. Carmen is unmoved and asks him to join her gypsy life if he really loves her.

Her picture of a life of freedom tempts him but he finally refuses saying he will never be a deserter. He begins to leave when Zuniga enters hoping to find Carmen. Don José draws his sword on his superior officer, but before they can fight the smugglers burst in and disarm both of them. Zuniga is made a prisoner and José has no alternative but to flee with Carmen."
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Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 194.176.105.56
Posted on Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 03:51 pm:   

That's an interpretation which didn't come across well in the version I saw.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.27.21.184
Posted on Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 03:55 pm:   

A interpretation is made by the viewer, isn't it?
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Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 194.176.105.56
Posted on Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 04:05 pm:   

Interpretation of the written word is made almost entirely by the reader as all the voices and actions are as the reader imagines them to be.

For a physical performance, the viewer's interpretation is vastly affected by the way the actors play the scenes. If she sounds happy and he sounds happy and they both have happy loving body language as they run off hand in hand, they're in love and this is voluntary desertion...
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.27.21.184
Posted on Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 04:11 pm:   

You mean, you didn't try follow the libretto? In which case, why do you suppose Bizet bothered with one? Why didn't he just write as a ballet?
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.27.21.184
Posted on Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 04:22 pm:   

Hell, who needs a screenplay anyway? Just base your understanding on mood cues and body language . . .

http://www.thetrailermash.com/shining-romantic-comedy/
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Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 194.176.105.56
Posted on Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 04:26 pm:   

Hey, not my fault if the seat they give to unpaid staff is so poor you can only read the left half of the subtitles...
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.27.21.184
Posted on Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 04:31 pm:   

Could your colleague only see the right half?
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Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 194.176.105.56
Posted on Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 04:38 pm:   

My colleague had paid for a good seat. He still thought she was a tart.

Her performance was not good enough to make the audience feel for her - she came across as a floozy who took advantage of all the men she saw. All down to the performance... it can make such a difference to the viewer's interpretation.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.27.21.184
Posted on Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 05:02 pm:   

None of your post at 2:38 alluded to the performance, you wriggling squirmer.
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 75.4.249.39
Posted on Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 05:05 pm:   

Craig, it's F.W. Murnau not lang

Whoops - my bad.

I love the word "tart" - in America, that word can only elicit laughter, a term that can't be taken seriously. Does it retain some insulting power over there in the U.K.?
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.27.21.184
Posted on Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 05:07 pm:   

Only in Weber's world. :-)
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.27.21.184
Posted on Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 05:11 pm:   

"In the first place, the play evokes a world that is patently inaccessible to Self. When Martina takes him to the opera to see Otello Self congratulates himself for knowing the plot from having seen the TV spinoff. His understanding of the story however is a hilarious misinterpretation that stems from the media stereotypes into which he automatically turns the major figures: "The flash spade general arrives to take up a position on some island, in the olden days there, bringing with him the Lady Di figure as his bride. Then she starts diddling one of his lieutenants, a funloving kind of guy whom I took to immediately". In no time Self has converted Verdi's opera into a soap opera."
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Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 194.176.105.56
Posted on Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 05:32 pm:   

My post at 2:38 was my interpretation of the story from the performance that I saw of it. Interpretation of a live show can only be based on the performance.
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Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 194.176.105.56
Posted on Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 05:42 pm:   

For example, I saw an amateur performance of Little Voice recently where the director decided that it was a bright and breezy comedy and not to play for any sympathy or tragedy in anyone's character except for LV and Billy. Ray Say had no charm, he was just sleaze on legs, matched only by Mr Boo at the nightclub. His big speeches to try to persuade people to his way of thinking/doing wouldn't have persuaded anyone as his character had no sincerity (even fake).

If it had been the first time I'd seen the show I would have thought that Jim Cartwright wrote crass comedies, LV was just stupid and Billy was slightly retarded - because that's the way they were played.

Bad performance can change the meaning of a play entirely. It can rewrite the script without changing a word of it.

Ray Say's actions should dictate dictate his sleaziness, not the way he plays the part. that way we feel genuinely shocked and hurt for Marie when he turns on her at the end.

Even Ray can glean some sympathy from the crowd in the "It's over" speech. But that pivotal moment was played entirely for laughs in this apalling version that I saw.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.27.21.184
Posted on Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 05:52 pm:   

>>My colleague was much offended by my summation of the story, claiming it was a classic tale of love and grief etc.

Sorry, but your original comments were clearly directed at the opera and not the performance. You've arrived at this latter understanding during this thread.
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Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 194.176.105.56
Posted on Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 05:55 pm:   

I had no knowledge of the opera before seeing it. I've had no experience of it since that one performance. My comments about the opera can only be based on one thing.
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Chris_morris (Chris_morris)
Username: Chris_morris

Registered: 04-2008
Posted From: 12.165.240.116
Posted on Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 05:56 pm:   

Probably Weber's opinion of the opera was colored by the performance?
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 06-2008
Posted From: 86.169.220.102
Posted on Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 06:01 pm:   

Weber wrote operas: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Maria_von_Weber
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.27.21.184
Posted on Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 06:10 pm:   

What I mean is, your original attitude was not this-performance-of-Carmen-made-her-look-like-a-tart; it was she-is-a-tart. It's only during this discussion that you've brought performance into it (4:38), while wriggling around and saying you could only read half the subtitles (4:26), misinterpreting the story (3:51), and suggesting that men have no self-control (3:19) and some women exploit that, whether they know it or not (3:08).

Go away for a month or so and then come back to reread your wriggling wriggly argument. It wriggles like a wriggly thing with a bad case of the wriggles.
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Gcw (Gcw)
Username: Gcw

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.156.38.66
Posted on Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 06:28 pm:   

"I think you have Mr Arkadin in mind."

A strange yet compelling mess of a movie...Only seen it once, but was transfixed.

gcw
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Chris_morris (Chris_morris)
Username: Chris_morris

Registered: 04-2008
Posted From: 12.165.240.116
Posted on Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 07:10 pm:   

It doesn't seem wriggly to me, actually. Weber's complaint that "she's a tart" was a perception based on the only experience of the opera he had: the one performance. Over the course of this conversation it seems he has begun to understand that this perception was an uncommon one, based not on the libretto or on the popular understanding of the opera, but upon the (poor) performance he witnessed. He couldn't read the subtitles, so the text didn't clear things up.

From my viewpoint, it appears less like Weber is being wriggly and more like Gary is aggressively attacking Weber for disliking the opera. Can't Weber dislike Carmen for any reasons he wants? Even if he is being sexist -- which I'm not sure he is -- he has the right to his opinion, no?
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.27.21.184
Posted on Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 07:21 pm:   

Of course he does. Who said he didn't?

So do I, however, and I still think Weber's interpretation is based on shaky ground: that the guy was hoodwinked into loving the girl by her beauty, that he wasn't responsible for anything that happened, blah blah. He questions her exercise of control, but seems to excuse the guy on grounds of . . . what? That he has a dick and should be forgiven for being a pathetic individual.

But we've had these debates before. And there's no aggression here. Maybe you need access to my body language and not just the 'libretto' to see that.
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Chris_morris (Chris_morris)
Username: Chris_morris

Registered: 04-2008
Posted From: 12.165.240.116
Posted on Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 07:34 pm:   

Well, you're trying to portray Weber as a man with a wounded argument, wriggling into defensive positions and trying to escape. There's aggression implicit in that portrayal, no? Even if that aggression is unintended, it's not the most charitable portrayal of a man with a shaky interpretation of an opera.

It seems to me that if I saw the performance Weber saw, and it was my only knowledge of Carmen, I may have come away with similar feelings. Perhaps Weber's so-called "sexist" attitude comes from the performance having a strong lead actress and a weak male. Who can say? Certainly not you, who didn't see the show. Even if you had, you apparently would have attended it already armed with knowledge about Carmen, and so your perceptions would be different anyway.

I wonder sometimes about the people who saw Van Sant's version of PSYCHO first, before Hitch's. When they finally see Hitch's, can they actually appreciate the film? We're all limited, to an extent, by our first experiences with something like that. Perhaps Weber will always hate Carmen.
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 06-2008
Posted From: 86.169.220.102
Posted on Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 07:37 pm:   

Maybe you need access to my body language and not just the 'libretto' to see that.
==============

All three are important in opera: movement, music and words...perhaps music most of all.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.27.21.184
Posted on Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 07:45 pm:   

>>>Well, you're trying to portray Weber as a man with a wounded argument, wriggling into defensive positions and trying to escape.

That's just what I think. I was simply saying so. I can only assume that to avoid being aggressive in this definition is not to say it at all.

>>>We're all limited, to an extent, by our first experiences with something like that.

I've wondered about that very thing. How important, for example, one's first viewing of (or listening to; or reading of; or whatever) a work truly is, since it's the one which will define how you perceive it, well, probably forever.
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Mick Curtis (Mick)
Username: Mick

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.176.5.66
Posted on Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 07:55 pm:   

A strange yet compelling mess of a movie...Only seen it once, but was transfixed.

Which version, GCW? There're a few. Well, three as far as I'm aware - there's a nice Criterion set of them all. Must admit it's not my favourite of his films - there are many of his I'd rather watch - but it is quite gripping (and also quite "European" if such a thing exists).
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.27.21.184
Posted on Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 07:56 pm:   

>>>Perhaps Weber's so-called "sexist" attitude comes from the performance having a strong lead actress and a weak male.

I certainly don't think the comment above about men having no control of themselves because they're under the guidance of their dicks had anything to do with the opera. It was a theory of human behaviour which he applied to the opera and has nothing to do with the performance. His comments about the guy falling in love with the woman and being persuaded by her to do things which endanger him are possibly undergirded by this implicit understanding of male behaviour - ergo, the poor sap had no choice and can be excused everything that happened. No?

Nothing to do with performance. Everything to do with bollocks. :-)
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Chris_morris (Chris_morris)
Username: Chris_morris

Registered: 04-2008
Posted From: 12.165.240.116
Posted on Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 08:16 pm:   

>> That's just what I think. I was simply saying so. I can only assume that to avoid being aggressive in this definition is not to say it at all.

Not at all. You attacked his opinions as being as obtuse as John Self's and then as being sexist. As Weber began to discover that his opinion may have come only from the poor performance he saw, you began to attack him for being evasive, for in effect lying to you. You pursued these attacks well past the point of 'simply saying so.' If you disagree with him, you could have just posted that you do, added your reasons for doing so, and left it at that. Why keep at it unless you intend to deny him of his own opinion, unless you aim to force him to admit he's wrong?

The perception I'm left with is that Weber's dislike of Carmen has personally wounded you in one way or another. Why else would you expend such effort? People -- often me -- post ridiculous opinions all the time on this board. Why bother attacking Weber's?

>> I certainly don't think the comment above about men having no control of themselves because they're under the guidance of their dicks had anything to do with the opera. It was a theory of human behaviour which he applied to the opera and has nothing to do with the performance. His comments about the guy falling in love with the woman and being persuaded by her to do things which endanger him are possibly undergirded by this implicit understanding of male behaviour - ergo, the poor sap had no choice and can be excused everything that happened. No?

You're right. But remember this was only a counter-argument, and an off-hand one at that. And it seemed to be made in jest.

Nonetheless, he liked DONNIE DARKO, and that's a sin I can't forgive. You hold him, Gary. I'll grab my brass knuckles.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.27.21.184
Posted on Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 08:30 pm:   

I don't give a toss about Carmen. I don't even like opera very much.

All right, I'll be honest: I thought the comment "She was a bloody tart and she deserved to die" quite horrible, not something that belongs in any sensible discussion on a public forum.

I'm pretty sure I won't be the only person who did. If I'm wrong, so be it. Happy to accept that.
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Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.96.240.106
Posted on Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 08:35 pm:   

The only thing that disturbs me about this entire silly debate is that Weber thinks a women deserves to die for being sexuality promiscuous. I mean, like, wow.

I'm assuming you were being glib, yes?
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Chris_morris (Chris_morris)
Username: Chris_morris

Registered: 04-2008
Posted From: 12.165.240.116
Posted on Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 08:44 pm:   

I sort of understand now. I never thought Weber was being anything but glib.

>> I'm pretty sure I won't be the only person who did. If I'm wrong, so be it. Happy to accept that.


No worries, mate. I still love you.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.27.21.184
Posted on Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 08:56 pm:   

Fucking interfering Americans. You all deserve to die. :-)
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Chris_morris (Chris_morris)
Username: Chris_morris

Registered: 04-2008
Posted From: 12.165.240.116
Posted on Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 09:01 pm:   

Weber, you owe me money, mate.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.27.21.184
Posted on Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 09:04 pm:   

>>I'm assuming you were being glib, yes?

Don't offer him wriggling material. It's fun watching him invent his own. Hahahahaha.
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Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 194.176.105.56
Posted on Friday, January 15, 2010 - 09:52 am:   

Yes I was being glib at the beginning. I even put in smileys on a couple of comments.

However, if we were to reverse the gender roles in the story - She falls for him, her life is ruined because of his leading her on despite the fact he knows he'll get bored of her before six months are up - One line that I could read was Carmen saying "I only ever fall in love for 6 months - she ends up with a death sentence on her head as a result of her love for him, when she's at rock bottom he casually and cruelly rejects her saying "I'm bored with you now, I want her instead" so she kills him. Would he be the tragic hero, or would he be the villain? He would almost certainly be the villain and she would be the wronged heroine, forced into an act of deserved violence.

Just because the gender roles were the other way round doesn't make her a tragic heroine.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.27.21.184
Posted on Friday, January 15, 2010 - 11:08 am:   

Read Madame Bovary. Except that she kills herself instead.

Or in a tangential way, Tess of the D'Ubervilles in which she does kill the guy (who duped her).
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Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 194.176.105.56
Posted on Friday, January 15, 2010 - 05:04 pm:   

I just read the plot description for Madame Bovary -

Young Mr Bovary is forced into marriage by his parents. He meets a woman he loves. His current wife dies. He marries teh woman he loves. She gets bored with him. They move to a bigger town. She's still bored with him so she starts cheating on him with an assortment of men. One of these men is a serial womaniser (cf carmen) and appears to be portrayed as a nasty villainous piece of work. She embezzles money from Mr Bovary's medical practice. Both Bovary's are ruined financially as a result and she kills herself. Mr Bovary then has to sell everything he owns to pay off the debts his wife left him with and soon after he dies and their daughter is sent to work in a cotton mill.

IMHO she sounds like the major villain of the piece.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make by suggesting I read it.

And by saying that Tess of the D was duped suggests that the killing is "justified" in that book too as he is clearly the villain.

Why is the cheating woman seen as a tragic heroine while the men are cast as villains for the same actions?
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.27.21.184
Posted on Friday, January 15, 2010 - 05:47 pm:   

I wasn't trying to be antagonistic, Weber. I just thought you might like to read them cos they dealt with similar issues to those you hinted at above.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.27.21.184
Posted on Friday, January 15, 2010 - 05:50 pm:   

There is, however, a good deal of contextual material about each woman - background, etc - in those novels which perhaps Carmen (by necessity of the medium) lacks. Flaubert is far too subtle to write Emma B as a villain, though she can indeed be interpreted as such. Similarly, Tess's villainous act is grounded in a gendered, class-riven world.
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Chris_morris (Chris_morris)
Username: Chris_morris

Registered: 04-2008
Posted From: 12.165.240.116
Posted on Friday, January 15, 2010 - 06:15 pm:   

>> Why is the cheating woman seen as a tragic heroine while the men are cast as villains for the same actions?

These roles are vitually interchangeable throughout literature. There are books that feature non-villainous cheating men (Graham Greene's The Heart of the Matter, say, or Iris Murdoch's A Severed Head, or even The World According to Garp). (These men are immoral, perhaps, but not portrayed as villainous.) And there are books that feature villainous cheating women (The Postman Always Rings Twice comes to mind -- heck, any book by James M Cain, really -- and some would say Joyce's Ulysses falls into this category). And some books have both, such as Ford Madox Ford's The Good Soldier (sort of, at least).

And of course adulterers can be both tragic and villainous: another combination common in literature.
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Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey)
Username: Ramsey

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 195.93.21.74
Posted on Saturday, January 16, 2010 - 01:08 pm:   

To return to an extent to my original theme, does anyone know any of the productions of Pelleas et Melisande that are available on DVD? I suspect I'd prefer Gardiner to Boulez (who tended to be a bit austere with Debussy) but the staging of the Gardiner has been much criticised.
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 06-2008
Posted From: 86.169.220.102
Posted on Saturday, January 16, 2010 - 08:54 pm:   

I'm not generally an expert on particular performances of anything (enjoying bad and good alike for different reasons), but my DVD of Debussy's Pelleas et Melisande is the Boulez (Welsh National Opera) and I have found this visually and audially very satisfying.
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Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey)
Username: Ramsey

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 195.93.21.74
Posted on Sunday, January 17, 2010 - 08:32 am:   

Thanks, Des! I shall invest!

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