| Author | Message | ||
     Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.163.176.9 |
I agree with Ramsey; it lacked completely the weird skewed psychology of the original book, felt more like a thin Narnia movie with characters from Alice plopped randomly into it. The hatter wasn't even the same character, who had in the book been quite rude and dismissive of Alice. Here it looked like they were in love. Where was the sense of discovery the book had, the real undercurrent of dread unreality? | ||
| Stephen Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
I'm going to try and see it again tonight but all the comments I've heard have me very wary... still, it is Tim Burton and you never know with him. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.163.176.9 |
I preferred the bits before she goes, then comes back. I did love the rabbit hole and the drink me/eat me stuff, though. But then it sort of jumps too far ahead like a trailer and loses it. | ||
| Clive (Clive) Username: Clive Registered: 10-2009 Posted From: 81.104.165.168 |
I'm going to see it this week and trying to keep an open mind but the signs are not great. I suspect i'll have to watch the excellent Jan Svankmajer version afterwards to re (and de) align my inner Alice | ||
| Stephen Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
At last another Svankmajer fan!!  I am always blown away by his work and don't know why he isn't as revered as David Lynch in distilling the pure essence of nightmares. I was lucky enough to see a season of his films on the big screen two years ago including; various shorts, 'Alice', 'Faust', 'Conspirators Of Pleasure', 'Little Otik' & 'Lunacy'. I find his work utterly terrifying and impossible to stop watching. His version of 'Alice In Wonderland' is the most surreal, dark, bleak, disturbing, whacked out and best by a mile yet filmed imho. | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 82.38.75.85 |
I enjoyed Alice - as I said on t'other thread. I guess I wasn't expecting it to be anything other than a "big screen movie" version to please a mainstream audience. Yes, I know Burton turned it into an action adventure yarn, with a hint of romance (he always does with Depp in the lead), but I thought it was a great modern-day *homage* to the original. Now Svankmajer's Alice will almost certainly be nearer the Carroll original - I'd love to see that. But in this day and age, given the target audience, I was most impressed with Burton's Alice. | ||
| Mick Curtis (Mick) Username: Mick Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.178.82.41 |
At last another Svankmajer fan!! How dare you sir! I've been a fan for thirty years! | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.255.131 |
As to Tim Burton's ALICE IN WONDERLAND: I've come at last to the realization that I actually don't have to see everything there is out there before I die... and yet life can still be wonderful.... | ||
| Mick Curtis (Mick) Username: Mick Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.178.82.41 |
We're booked to see ALICE IN WONDERLAND in Imax 3D in a couple of weeks. Looking forward to it, but noting that, as several reviews have pointed out, it's not based on the storyline of the original book as such, so I won't go expecting that. | ||
| Gcw (Gcw) Username: Gcw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.170.200.240 |
"We're booked to see ALICE IN WONDERLAND in Imax 3D" (He can't just go to the flick's can he??) gcw | ||
| Mick Curtis (Mick) Username: Mick Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.178.82.41 |
'course not! | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 82.38.75.85 |
Mick - that's the way I saw it too, and I think that's probably why I enjoyed it. For me, it was the fact that the characters I'd loved as a child (based not only on Carroll's writing, but also on the drawings of Tenniel) were there right in front of me in wonderful 3D. Like I said on t'other thread (the "nice things in Bradford" one if anyone wants to take a look), I wanted to reach out and stroke the Cheshire cat! No, if you're expecting a version of Alice faithful to the original, you'll be disappointed, but if you want to marvel at the wonders of having these charaters come to life before your very eyes (never mind the storyline), then IMAX 3D is the way to see it IMHO. | ||
| Stephen Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 82.17.252.126 |
Oh dear... I finally got to see 'Alice In Wonderland' and you better not read the rest of this, Caroline. This is the single worst, most misguided, infuriating and frankly unforgiveable travesty of a literary masterpiece I ever set my eyes on!! Tim Burton has had the effrontery to take Lewis Carroll's freewheeling madcap ode to the illogical and batter the living daylights out of it. The whole project reeks of naked commercialism. I can just hear the suits muttering about how to turn this "nonsense" into something the public will swallow. Let's give em a bit of a quest and that "good vs evil" stuff always sells well... and I am dismayed at Burton's acquiescence. They wanted another 'Lord Of The Rings' or 'Chronicles Of Narnia' or 'Harry Potter' not something that rambles along meaninglessly just for the sake of it... If there isn't a story the public (poor dumb fools) can follow then we'll smash the source material to bits and put the pieces back together again in a way that sort of makes sense. That okay with you Tim? Of course it is... we're the ones paying for all the pretty effects after all and we also think 3D would enhance the film's profits. Tim Burton has gone way down in my estimation as a filmmaker after this one... it makes even his execrable 'Planet Of The Apes' remake look faithful by comparison. Everything - abso-bloody-lutely everything - about this film is depressing. The script was infantile, the 3D was distracting, Alice was an irritating Gwyneth Paltrow wannabe, Johnny Depp was horrendously miscast and I wasted my time and money going to see it - should have listened to you, Craig. My "Turkey Of The Year" prize has a new front runner (and here I thought 'The Lovely Bones' would be hard to beat).  Time to order the complete works of Jan Svankmajer methinks and revel in some good old-fashioned integrity! | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.143.128.220 |
should have listened to you, Craig - and me! | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 82.38.75.85 |
Sorry, Stephen - better not listen to me in future!  So, I'm the only one here who loved it then, am I? I did explain in my other post that it's commercialised - they've taken Carroll's characters and made an action adventure/romance out of it. Definitely aimed at a mass/commercial market, I'm not denying that. Not being sexist or anything but I wonder if it's a "girly thing"? I'd like to hear some female views about it. I do wonder if it's aimed more at a female audience than a male one. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.250.166 |
should have listened to you, Craig Shouldn't doubt me on these things. I'm smarter than you look.  | ||
| Stephen Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 82.17.252.126 |
And a Laurel & Hardy fan as well... | ||
| Clive (Clive) Username: Clive Registered: 10-2009 Posted From: 81.104.165.168 |
Yuck. That was horrible. Totally agree with you Stephen. The sequal idea was not necessarily a bad one, it's just that it was so obviously and shamelessly engineered to fit a format of what childrens films are meant to be today and that format is almost the antithesis of why the Alice books are so amazing. The Mad Hatter is not bloody Aragon and the LAST THING EVER that Wonderland needs is a f**king oracle! | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.240.106 |
Sorry to state the obvious, but what were you expecting from a multi-million-dollar Hollywood blockbuster? Edge? Quirkiness? Integrity? Tim Burton sold out some time ago; his pseudo goth chic is now part of the mainstream. | ||
| Clive (Clive) Username: Clive Registered: 10-2009 Posted From: 81.104.165.168 |
Thats very true Zed. I wasn't expecting much but still got annoyed. | ||
| Stephen Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 82.17.252.126 |
I was hoping for something as impressive as 'Sweeney Todd' but got his worst film to date instead... LOATHED IT!! | ||
| Mick Curtis (Mick) Username: Mick Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.179.37.211 |
Now I'm REALLY looking forward to seeing it! | ||
| Gcw (Gcw) Username: Gcw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.170.200.240 |
(in 3D. At the Imax!) gcw> | ||
| Mick Curtis (Mick) Username: Mick Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.179.37.211 |
Yes! And yes! | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.79.75.131 |
One reviewer wrote that 3D is a waste of a perfectly good dimension. | ||
| Mick Curtis (Mick) Username: Mick Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.179.37.211 |
Mark Kermode is most vociferous in his dislike of it - he's right, I guess, in that he says there's not a good film that's ever been made that could be made better by 3D. | ||
| Clive (Clive) Username: Clive Registered: 10-2009 Posted From: 81.104.165.168 |
>>he's right, I guess, in that he says there's not a good film that's ever been made that could be made better by 3D.<< Saucy seaside post cards on the other hand... | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.74 |
Mark Kermode is wrong - Dial M for Murder proves it. As for the male/female notion, Caroline - well, I love the melodramas of Borzage and Sirk, so I don't think that applies to me. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.79.79.162 |
"Mark Kermode is wrong..." Maybe on that particular point, but in principle I agree with him. In less assured hands than Hitchcock's (or Lynch's - he's expressed some interest in the technology) 3D is going to be a distraction at best. It's the CGI of the 2010s. | ||
| Gcw (Gcw) Username: Gcw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.170.200.240 |
Surely it has potential in the right hands...Imagine the trips in Fear & Loathing in Las Vegas in 3D. gcw | ||
| Stephen Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 82.17.252.126 |
I have nothing against the idea of 3D or even CGI for that matter... they are added tools that any talented director could use with insight and subtlety to enhance their vision. It's the lazy misuse and overuse of 3D and CGI by people who should know better (i.e. Peter Jackson, Tim Burton, etc) that makes me despair! | ||
| Mick Curtis (Mick) Username: Mick Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.179.37.211 |
Mark Kermode is wrong - Dial M for Murder proves it. I think Proto has hit the nail on the head - one instance only, and in the hands of a great director. | ||
| Mick Curtis (Mick) Username: Mick Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.179.37.211 |
Plus, I'm sure 3D doesn't make DIAL M FOR MURDER a better film than it already is, which is (sort of) Kermode's point. | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 82.38.75.85 |
Right, you folks have had me doubting my own judgment about Alice (not to mention my own sanity for enjoying it!), but I think I've figured out *why* I enjoyed it. Call me daft, but I reckon it was my inner child who enjoyed it so much. The same child who loved the books all those years ago. I was just as enthralled to feel like I could reach out and stroke the giant 3D Cheshire Cat, as I was when I first encountered that character on the page back then. Whereas, perhaps, you were all looking at it through the eyes of the adult critic? Just a theory anyway, but I reckon, Mick, if you go to see it in 3D on the IMAX along with your inner child, you might actually enjoy it like I did! | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.79.246.117 |
"Plus, I'm sure 3D doesn't make DIAL M FOR MURDER a better film than it already is, which is (sort of) Kermode's point." Well that final shot would be amazing in 3D! | ||
| Clive (Clive) Username: Clive Registered: 10-2009 Posted From: 81.104.165.168 |
>>Whereas, perhaps, you were all looking at it through the eyes of the adult critic?<< I don't think thats the case for myself. If anything it's quite the opposite. My inner child (inner Alice) wanted to enjoy it but found that the obvious, and quite patronising, need by the filmmakers to enforce a strong format and structure, as Stephen pointed out: quest-map-good vs evil etc, onto it was ruining my enjoyment. Children are more adept at enjoying nonsense for nonsense sake and thats why i love the Alice books so much. This really was the antithesis of Alice. It was a grown ups Alice and what's worse, it was a business-persons Alice. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.232.44 |
Or what about Vincent Price's HOUSE OF WAX? Which, by the way, for years when I was growing up (i.e., into the 80's!), was the very first film you thought of when you thought of 3D - "A 3D film? You mean, like HOUSE OF WAX?" In those 80's, I remember being dazzled by a 3D film called THE TREASURE OF THE FOUR CROWNS - so much so, I went back to the theater twice to see it. I'm sure if I saw it now, I'd probably instead want to gouge out my eyes, and sunder the 3rd Dimension from all existence.... | ||
| Mick Curtis (Mick) Username: Mick Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.183.206.114 |
Well that final shot would be amazing in 3D! It would be fun, as would the grabbing for the scissors, and the telephone, but the point is that these things, in 3D, don't make it a better film than 2D. The quality is there already. Plus, I'm sure, all the folk who have seen DIAL M... in 3D are vastly outnumbered by those who've 'only' seen it flat, either on TV or, as I did first time, at an 'arthouse' cinema, still in 2D, and the film is still very highly rated. The 3D is simply an extra. I think the idea of 3D is great fun, and I've enjoyed a fair few films that way, from the likes of HOUSE OF WAX & CREATURE FROM THE BLACK LAGOON right up to BOLT 3D, and although they are fun, the 3D still doesn't make the film 'better', simply different. All imho, of course. I'm always right though. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.240.106 |
I'd say 3D probably made Avatar a better film. I haven't seen the 2D version, but that world was utterly immersive in 3D. | ||
| Mick Curtis (Mick) Username: Mick Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.183.206.114 |
Maybe, but Kermode's argument was that he had yet to hear of a great film that could be made better by the use of 3D. I don't think he, or anyone else (apart from a friend's wife who knows nowt about films) thinks Avatar is a great film (great as in KANE, or Bergman's stuff, say, not great as in great fun). She said AVATAR was the best film she'd ever seen, but then she won't watch anything in monochrome, or earlier than 1990, or that doesn't have loads of special effects, so there's not too much competition in her narrow world of cinema! | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.79.246.117 |
I've an uneasy feeling that 3D could pervert the evolution of film grammar as much as the untimely arrival of sound. | ||
| Mick Curtis (Mick) Username: Mick Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.183.206.114 |
My friend's still trying to educate his wife in film - he showed her NORTH BY NORTHWEST which she then described as "a load of old cheese". | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.240.106 |
Mick - that's hilarious.  | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.79.55.42 |
"A load of old cheese". Ha! Praising with faint damnation, perhaps? It IS a load of old cheese, of course. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.74 |
Hardly. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.143.128.220 |
The missing link between new 3D films and good old ones is artistry. I DO think a good film could be better in 3D. Creature from the Black Lagoon was beautiful in it (if odd looking in places). I felt immersed in the underwater sequences. Imagine citizen Kane in 3D - you can almost feel Welles striving to make it so, to begin with. He would have loved it. Boorman's work would be great in it, Neil Jordan. My fave possible 3D film, however, would probably be Alien, if they could do it. God, it would almost be unbearable. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.143.128.220 |
The best of the latest 3D films I 've seen is Ice AGe 3; it went for lovely scenery as well as the fun stuff. Beauty is being largely forgotten by the process I think, but when it'll be addressed the media will come into it's own. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
But surely the whole point of the 3D in Avatar was beauty. That world...it became almost real. Knock Cameron as much as you like, but the process was anything but gimmicky in that film. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.22.175 |
Yeah, that's true. I suppose my kind of beauty is different to Cameron's (I found the endless black water in Creature astonishingly so, for instance). I think my idea of it ties more in with mystery. Maybe I just wasn't in the mood for Avatar? If it means anything, my kid sort of went off it too, he hasn't become fixated on it the way he did Godzilla movies. | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 82.38.75.85 |
>>My fave possible 3D film, however, would probably be Alien, if they could do it. God, it would almost be unbearable.<< Totally agree with you on that one, Tony. I found some sequences in Alien - and more so, Aliens - almost too scary in 2D. The way those creatures come at you! In 3D it would, as you say, be almost unbearable. By the way, where or how have you guys managed to see so many old films in 3D? I didn't know they were made in that format. I thought it was only recently that 3D had become possible/available. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 147.252.230.148 |
"My fave possible 3D film, however, would probably be Alien, if they could do it. God, it would almost be unbearable." Hmm, that never occurred to me. 3D with not much happening would be interesting. Now that I think of it, that opening with the camera wandering through the Nostromo does seem like it was filmed for 3D. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.148.31.179 |
That's it exactly! We forget that in 3D there is 'space', not just things moving in space. Caroline; old 3D was almost all rubbish. Creature was about the best I saw because there was no colour to go wrong. | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 82.38.75.85 |
>>That's it exactly! We forget that in 3D there is 'space', not just things moving in space.<< And you know what they say? In space, no-one can hear you scream.  Sorry, I went to see John Hurt do an on-stage interview the other night (and I got his autograph - well I would, wouldn't I  ) and I'm still buzzing from the experience. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 147.252.230.148 |
Caroline. Ouch. If they ever force Alien through the third dimension: "In 3D... well, it won't affect your scream one way or the other, really." | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.148.31.179 |
They're doing the old Star Wars though, so it wouldn't surprise me if alien does happen. Heck, especially ALIENS,given Cameron's love for the process. | ||
| Stephen Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
I don't get people's enthusiasm for turning originally 2D films into distracting 3D mockeries - in the same way I didn't see the need for B&W films to be colourised. It's all unnecessary window dressing that actually detracts from the original work of art. Would any of us like to see a Picasso or a Dali in 3D?! I thought the 3D in 'Avatar' worked exceptionally well because it was always a part of the original vision while the 3D in 'Alice In Wonderland' was so obviously tacked on as an afterthought that I found it irritating in the extreme. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.56 |
It's not even proper 3d, you'd be able to look round things if it was. It's just layers to the picture. | ||
| Stephen Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
Well said, Weber! To me it's like looking at flat cut-out figures standing up and sliding about the screen with blurriness behind - horrible. 'Avatar' was different but still in the end a very shallow and ultimately forgettable movie after getting over the wow factor of the visuals. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.4.2 |
I'm the lone man in America who's not seen AVATAR, and sincerely doesn't want to.... My sister calls it "Avatard." | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.56 |
That sounds like a leotard Ava gardner might have worn Did you mean Avaturd? | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.4.2 |
No, Avatard - as in 'tard - do you not too have that extremely-insensitive term over there in the U.K.?... | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.56 |
Oh, yeah we do. Might have been clearer as Ava'tard | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.56 |
avaturd is still better though. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.148.31.179 |
Oh, I hate the word retard, and I hate the way it (and words like it) skip quite happily through family comedy like it's nothing. I got it banned off kids telly, you know; complained about a 'good' character that said 'As cool as a retarded stick' or something. The complaints folk agreed with me and said it mustn't happen again between the hours four and six - i.e. kiddy telly time. I'm actually proud of the fact. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.248.50 |
I dunno, Tony... words, words, words... 'tard is not retard, it's a different word used as I hear it all the time: it really has taken on other connotations when one guy calls someone else a 'tard - it just means they did something stupid, or are acting stupid.... People call others idiots and morons - idiot has a specific reference to mental retardation, and so does moron - they are measurements on a psychological scale, and only time has faded their original connotations - does that make them less offensive? People don't even slice-and-dice the words, like 'diot or 'oron, they just blatantly use them. Not saying it's the most respectable thing to do, but... come on... this world must lighten up to some degree, or we're all going to go nuts - hopefully that doesn't offend those who are truly nuts, as in, slaphappy at the insane asylum... none of you here are behind bars in a padded cell, are you?... if so, wow... sorry to hear it... unless you're happy there... in which case, nuts to you! | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.148.31.179 |
I have an autistic son and it hurts, that particular one - especially, as I said, when used by a 'good' character. Maybe one day it'll be ok, but I personally aren't ready. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.56 |
I've done voluntary work with handicapped children and 'tard or retard are possibly two of the most hurtful things you can say. I have to side with Tony on this one. To use the word retard as a noun is just offensive. It's one of the few words that I won't use. Most people with any experience with people with learning difficulties will agree. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.148.31.179 |
Weber - I love you! At least today.  Hey - you and I agree about abortion, too, remember... no 'it's a tricky subject' or anything for me. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.79.186.252 |
It may be an trans-Atlantic misunderstanding. Bugger is a gentle, almost warm, word in Britain, but not in America. Bastard is the opposite. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.242.35 |
And fanny too, Proto. And the c*** word, which is still so bad here that I have qualms even typing it. I do think this is a case of words not having the same meaning at all in different contexts and locations and settings.... | ||
| Stephen Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
I have an American Facebook friend - respectable family woman - who, out of the blue, once complained of having an itchy fanny and almost sent me into coronary arrest. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.242.35 |
Is it really a bad thing calling someone a bastard in the U.K.? That word has become purely comedic to me - I can't even imagine that! Although, maybe it's all about the context, the use, the intonation.... I did hear a certain uber-popular radio-host yesterday use it for our Congress over here, which just passed a form of universal health care bill - and the way he said it, he wasn't being so comedic.... What's that story that comes to mind? "Master of the Hounds," by - who was that author? Always liked that one - did they ever make that into a movie? | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.79.206.93 |
"Is it really a bad thing calling someone a bastard in the U.K.? That word has become purely comedic to me - I can't even imagine that!" It's not very serious, but is still considered "language", which I don't think it is in the US. | ||
| Stephen Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
I did hear a certain uber-popular radio-host yesterday use it for our Congress over here, which just passed a form of universal health care bill - and the way he said it, he wasn't being so comedic.... What a cunt! | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.148.31.179 |
The c word is bad here, bugger ok to use around the kids when mildly annoyed. Bastard a bit strong (I never use it, oddly enough). F is a bit strong I think but my kids use it (I'm not at all keen on it and will pull them up when they do). Yesterday I talked to a man who must have used all bad words in existence in front of his kid and mine. My soul quivered like a leaf in the wind. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.56 |
Bastard is a mid range insult. It doesn't have so much perjorative power - it all depends on the intonation and the context. I agree, the C word is pretty bad. Who'd want to be called a Craig? | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.79.206.93 |
Anyone know why so many people consider the C-word to be bad? I think it's all to do with hard consonants and how violent it can sound, a bit like the f-word. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.2.188 |
The C-word is bad AND vulgar at once, whereas the T-word is just vulgar. Arse is only humorous out here - arsehole would only elicit laughter. Asshole still retains a bit of a sting to it, of all things. Same with dick, calling someone that - it still has the edge of venom contained within it. Returning to the original problematic word - tard does not. It has no sting, no venom, is purely humorous. I have to return to my original question - if idiot and moron are "okay" now, why not tard? If the answer is, certain words lose their original meaning, they etiolate gradually and are no longer what they are - why then do some get to pick and choose which words are or are not? And under what authority? And even moreso, under what factual basis to they claim this to be so? One friend calling another friend a tard - I just don't see the hate here, or even the insensitivity... me no get it.... | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.56 |
idiot and moron are proper medical words. they are already nouns. Retard is a verb. It ain't a noun. It can only be used in the perjorative when used as a noun. It is one of the few words I try not to use. Try working with the disabled for a bit. You'll change your mind about the word. The only exception for me is the joke A guy knocked on my front door this morning and asked "Do you want your shed re-tarred?" i said "No thanks" And then the fucker took my shed. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.2.188 |
You arseholed bastard fanny-faced hypocrite! How can you make that statement and then tell that joke?! I'M TALKING ABOUT THE WORD ONLY BEING USED IN THAT KIND OF CONTEXT AS IT IS - AS A JOKE! (which is how I always hear the word tard used) | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.148.31.179 |
Oh, that's ok, Craig - that sort of joke only really acknowledges that the word exists. I hate the word but don't wanna try and pretend it doesn't exist. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.148.31.179 |
And the word - it's not who it's aimed at, but the fact that it demeans those in the situation that retarded is sometimes used to described. Ultimately, it's down to individuals - I don't like the word and will never use it, and won't be warming to people who do, but you know, it's their choice. | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 82.38.75.85 |
There's no swearing in Alice in Wonderland. How did you guys manage to take this thread so far off its original intent? | ||
| Stephen Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 82.17.252.126 |
I have no idea, Caroline. My own belief is that if we invest words with negative power instead of accepting them as mere words then we are playing right into the Devil's hands. It's all in the context. You know that old saying about the road to Hell being paved with good intentions... well it starts with quibbling over words. Craig is not a bad person for using the word "'tard" and I am not a bad person for using the word "cunt". Sometimes I just wish people would get a bit of perspective! | ||
| Clive (Clive) Username: Clive Registered: 10-2009 Posted From: 81.104.165.168 |
>>Craig is not a bad person for using the word "'tard" and I am not a bad person for using the word "cunt". Sometimes I just wish people would get a bit of perspective!<< Just curious but would you say the same about people who routinely use the word 'nigger' or 'paki' or 'wog' as an insult? | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.251.182 |
Craig is not a bad person for using the word "'tard".... Er - you mean there are other reasons? EVERYBODY lighten up! I'm half-Italian. A friend made up a "racial slur" for me and calls me a "spaghetti-bender." I laugh every time I hear it. I made up a "racial slur" for her -she's half-Mexican, and so I call her a "piñata-whacker." She laughs too. | ||
| Clive (Clive) Username: Clive Registered: 10-2009 Posted From: 81.104.165.168 |
>>EVERYBODY lighten up!<< Oh, i didn't mean to come across as stuffy and calling Stephen out there. Was just curious as to whether he thought the terms comparable. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.250.210 |
Personally, I find "nigger" offensive, and not in the joke-able arena ( though "niggah" has itself become a joke). "Paki" and "wog" have no insult value at all here - in fact, I have no idea what a wog even is! ("Rag head" is the yes-offensive catch-all here for those of Middle-Eastern/Arabian/Far-Eastern descent, the only one I've ever heard used.) | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.148.31.179 |
'Craig is not a bad person for using the word "'tard" and I am not a bad person for using the word "cunt". Sometimes I just wish people would get a bit of perspective!' I think Spaghetti bender is a lot nicer than retard. Anyway, my original quibble with the tv show I complained about was as much that 'as cool as a retarded stick' was saying being retarded was not cool. It was sending the signal to thousands of schoolkids that retarded was a bad thing, that parents/adults were in on that view (it was an adult that used the word). It's how things are said. Michael Jackson's dad repeatedly - all through his childhood and beyond - called him 'big nose'. We all know what tragedy happened there. Names, words, have power. People who swear crudely in front of children are daring to step over a social line and not care that they offend. The words are nothing; it's the people who choose to use such words at certain times I'm offended by. As I said - I complained about the word retard being used during kiddie tv time. Anyone remember a show here called Love Thy Neighbour? It was not a racist show but has the reputation of one because words like 'nig nog' were used. The character who used them was not bad but misguided, and even in the process of changing his views. But every day in the schoolyard kids were using these words to taunt other kids, make them thoroughly miserable. I don't mid words as such - it's just I feel there's a time and place for them, and they CAN be indicators of a person's personality. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.74 |
"Retard is a verb. It ain't a noun. It can only be used in the perjorative when used as a noun." Well, no. It's been in use as a noun since 1788, meaning a delay. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.56 |
Full of picky little niggles aren't you? Mr Landlord sir.  | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.252.114 |
"teacup gnawers" - Brits "bagpipe blowers" - Scots "stinking drunks" - Irish | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 188.147.146.33 |
"self-deluded halfwits with no understanding of the world geographically beyond their own town boaundaries - oh, and so obese even obese doesn't cut it" - Americans (except Craig) | ||
| Clive (Clive) Username: Clive Registered: 10-2009 Posted From: 81.104.165.168 |
And just where are the Welsh on your list Craig? I feel quite offended by their conspicuous absence. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.8.134 |
Hmmm... uh.... I know of naught about the Welsh. Except that no one can understand them when they talk, which is fine, because no one wants to hear them anyway.  Frank, you got us right! And also the part that's except for me... except for that part about geography, clearly.... | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 188.146.88.46 |
Hey, leave my Celtic brothers alone. They've got kids older than your history. The States is to us Brits what Britain was to the Romans.... Hey, talking of shooting down stereotypes, did you read the Paul Bettany interview about LA and all the Brits he tries to keep avoiding because they keep stereotyping everybody with, "the Yanks ain't go no irony." Very amusing, and very refreshing. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.148.31.179 |
I love a lack of irony. Anyone here watch Glee? It's fantastic, perfect telly. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.251.246.222 |
"teacup gnawers" - Brits "bagpipe blowers" - Scots "stinking drunks" - Irish How come the first two are just silly but the last one is actually a bit nasty? (And true.) | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.148.31.179 |
I know! I used to like those jokes about the Englishman, Irishman and Scotsman. They were like an ongoing sitcom with three characters who usually took turns in revealing their faults. I actually miss them. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.232.239 |
I was just trying to build expectations with mild humor, and then dash them by a sudden left-turn, Proto - if I had ended it on "potato peelers," like I was debating, it wouldn't have been as overall funny.... Of course, why did I put the Irish last then, would be the second question... I dunno, really... doesn't everyone? (I have a shocking revelation: never in my life have I ever met, to the best of my knowledge, a real live Irishman [or woman]!) Frank, are the Welsh where we get that term from - like, to welsh on a debt? | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.232.239 |
Here, taking Tony's cue, I'll make it up to the Irish: An Irishman, a Welshman, and a Scotsman, were on a plane that was going down into a mountain range. They had moments left to die a glorious death, or not. The Irishman begged forgiveness of his sins from God, tossed his liquor away, kissed his wife good-bye in his mind, and leaped out singing "Oh Danny Boy" all the way down. The Scotsman cursed the Irishman for being such a rotten scoundrel, drank the liquor the Irishman tossed away, made love to the Irishman's wife in his mind, and fought the controls all the way down. The Welshman grabbed a sheep and f****d its brains out till the plane crashed. Oh, yeah - the pilot was an Englishman. He kept apologizing for inconveniencing everyone until he was pulverized to a fine jelly. | ||
| Stephen Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
The difference about the Irish is that we are always prepared to laugh at ourselves and, what is more, we are our own worst critics. As a people we may be the most self-aware and blithely unbothered by it on the planet. You really must get out more, Craig, I'd suggest you visit a few Irish pubs up Boston way. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.56 |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJuNgBkloFE Proof that American's aren't really stupid... | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 188.147.10.96 |
I've worked abroad for ten years now, and I've worked with over 15 different nationalities, ranging from countries as diverse Portugal, Russisa, Japan and Croatia. And while the old stereotypes might be true for some, it is not the Irish who have a international reputation for drinking, but in fact the English. More to the point, it us English who have a reputation for being violent alcoholics. I'm not saying that's my view-point, just pointing out what a lot of other nationalities think about us once genteel Englishmen abroad. In the TEFL business, a lot of non-English nationalities think the English are somewhat 'weird', definitely reinforcing the eccentric tag. I have to admit, they may be right. | ||
| Stephen Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
Fecking hilarious!! | ||
| Stephen Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
True... England's greatest export was the lager lout while Ireland's was the Irish pub. It's called holding your liquor! | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.56 |
A man with no hands walked into a pub and asked for a pint. The Barman said "sorry we can't serve you, you can't hold your liquor" | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 147.252.230.148 |
Craig, ah, okay, it's a joke. Stephen: "As a people we may be the most self-aware and blithely unbothered by it on the planet." Er, is this another joke? | ||
| Clive (Clive) Username: Clive Registered: 10-2009 Posted From: 81.104.165.168 |
One stereotype i've found to be funny and true on my various travels, and from living abroad for a while, is of the Japanese. It really does seem that all they do when on holiday is take photographs and sleep! | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 147.252.230.148 |
While I was in Seoul, I found myself taking tons of photographs of very ordinary things because _everything_ was so different. I'm sure that's the reason. | ||
| Clive (Clive) Username: Clive Registered: 10-2009 Posted From: 81.104.165.168 |
Oh yes, Proto, thats obvious. But the stereotype of Japanese photographers is that they don't seem to actually LOOK at anything but take photos almost instantly. A stereotype of course but one that i have noticed and has been mentioned to me by various people in numerous countries. When guides in both Bali and Egypt say the exactly the same thing it is quite humourous to notice. | ||
| Stephen Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
They even do it in Belfast - the world's hottest tourist destination lol. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.56 |
Have the IRA been using incindiaries again? | ||
| Stephen Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
Ha ha... they disbanded a long, long, long time ago, Weber. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.56 |
I'm aware of that but the joke needed a recognisable name. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.247.54 |
That youtube video is pretty funny... and sadly accurate.... | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.148.31.179 |
I take pictures of everything all the time too, and I've lived here all my life. Maybe I don't feel like I have. If only we got such a buzz from our lives as those Japanese... | ||
| Clive (Clive) Username: Clive Registered: 10-2009 Posted From: 81.104.165.168 |
I do as well, Tony. I fact, i'm a photographer by trade and much of my time abroad has been in a travel photographer capacity but i like to take time to look at something first before capturing it's soul for ever in my picture box. Perhaps thats why i find the concept of constant snapshots as a means to experience something so odd though. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.148.31.179 |
I like to think a picture isn't of what we see, though, but rather something from our mind's eye. I'd love to be a photographer. I sent some stuff to Wordsworth press and they really liked them a lot, but wanted them more 'photoshoppy.' How do you go about it, Clive? Actually, would you judge some for me, be able to tell me if I was just deluding myself? They're only taken with my phone, but you wouldn't think it. I really like them. | ||
| Stephen Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
I'm the complete opposite... I can never be bothered taking photos on holiday but rather let the images and experiences stay in my memory. I also hate getting my own picture taken and find camcorders at weddings and such a complete abomination. Weird, huh? | ||
| Clive (Clive) Username: Clive Registered: 10-2009 Posted From: 81.104.165.168 |
>>I like to think a picture isn't of what we see, though, but rather something from our mind's eye.<< I certainly agree with you there Tony. I usually use the term 'create a photograph' rather than 'take a photograph'. I really come from a photography as art way of thinking rather than photography as trade (even though i used the term above). My stuff tends to fall into two camps: my own personal photography which leans towards the arty- i like abstracts and weird dark atmospheric images that reflect my taste in literature. And the stuff i photograph that sells- much of it bog standard stock which is still enjoyable but i'd rather be doing the other stuff. I tend to have a lot of that spread over a number of agencies. I really should be doing something to merge the two and try to make a bit more out of my more illustration type images. The book publisher route is a good one i should be pushing. Actually, Des came across one of my images on my personal blog that i'd titled after his upcoming collection. I wish i'd had the thought of perhaps sending it to Ex Occidente a while back to see if they'd be interested. I've got quite a crap business head really. http://unsettleddust.wordpress.com/2010/01/21/one-photograph-the-last-balcony/ I'd certainly be happy to have a look at some of your images Tony. You can send them to me here if you like... clive_nolan@yahoo.com Gosh, this thread is going more and more of topic isn't it. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.56 |
What's your favourite type of fish? | ||
| Clive (Clive) Username: Clive Registered: 10-2009 Posted From: 81.104.165.168 |
>> also hate getting my own picture taken and find camcorders at weddings and such a complete abomination. Weird, huh?<< Oh, i'm with you there. I hate having my photo taken. I think from my wedding years ago there are about four that exist of us together, as soon as we'd see a camera we'd scoot off in seperate directions and we certainly didn't hire a photographer in. I've also got no interest in doing wedding photography even though it's one of the easier ways to make a living out of photos. I've done a couple for friends but only on the understanding that i am there to get drunk firstly and photograph secondly. | ||
| Clive (Clive) Username: Clive Registered: 10-2009 Posted From: 81.104.165.168 |
>>What's your favourite type of fish?<< In parsley. | ||
| A fictional character from several books (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.56 |
I like haddock | ||
| I'm bored (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.56 |
Hey, that's quite cool. | ||
| Stephen Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 82.17.252.126 |
Mackerel... | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.148.31.179 |
Clive - tried sending them but no avail ... Is your email right? I hate camcordery shenanigans, being filmed. I also like just committing my holidays to memory. But somethimes, just sometimes, you feel the need to be able to see a place again. I'm in two minds about it, to be honest. | ||
| Clive (Clive) Username: Clive Registered: 10-2009 Posted From: 81.104.165.168 |
I got them ok Tony. They look great but i'm going to have a better look at them tomorrow when i am less drunk. I'll get back to you tomorrow. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.148.31.179 |
Yeah - tried again and they went through. Think I'd forwarded you an email I'd previously sent to someone else, but that the files had changed since then and they got stuck somehow blah blah....(sorry other folks!) | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.240.106 |
Just watched Alice...my missus and our son loved it; I was vaguely disappointed. Weber's bestest mate in the world ever was fantastic as The Tweedle's, though. And Depp was amusing. |