| Author | Message | ||
     Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 88.104.140.73 |
I'm way too excited about this to hold back any longer so it would be good to say which authors Joel and I have started looking at and have defiantely decided are in the anti-racist, anti-fascist anthology NEVER AGAIN. We can go from here to build it up from the many other wonderful submissions for it. http://grayfriarpress.com/catalogue/neveragain.html If anyone can work out how to put the cover on here I'd appreciate it :>). Artwork by DANI SERRA. There is one young talented lady called Kate who is going to be over the moon to be in it with Ramsey, Joe R. Lansdale and Lisa Tuttle, to name but a few... It will take a little longer to decide on authors who sent more than one story in and from the other amazing writers who have sent contributions in, too but we won't keep authors waiting long. I believe in spreading good news as it happens...we also need to choose from what Ramsey and Joe Lansdale have kindly offered. LISA TUTTLE. IN THE ARCADE. SIMON KURT UNSWORTH. A PLACE FOR FEEDING. THANA NIVEAU. DEATH OF DREAMS. JOHN HOWARD. A FLOWERING WOUND. R.J.KRIJNEN. VOLK. RHYS HUGHES. REDIFFUSION. ROSANNE RABINOWITZ. SURVIVOR'S GUILT | ||
| Kate (Kathleen) Username: Kathleen Registered: 09-2009 Posted From: 213.122.209.76 |
 | ||
| Stevie Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
Just gorgeous, and a brilliant idea!!  | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 88.104.140.73 |
Thank you for posting the cover, Kate and congratulations at being one of the first to be named (pseudonym Thana Niveau) in the anthology! | ||
| Mick Curtis (Mick) Username: Mick Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.179.206.84 |
Great cover - looking good, guys. I'm hoping to meet Thana at FCon. If she's anything like Kate, I'm sure she's lovely! :-) | ||
| Kate (Kathleen) Username: Kathleen Registered: 09-2009 Posted From: 213.122.209.76 |
Awwwww...  | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.175.226 |
Ally, that should be R.J. Krijnen-Kemp (aka Rob Kemp) a story that some RCMB members may remember from Nasty Piece of Work. | ||
| Stu (Stu) Username: Stu Registered: 04-2008 Posted From: 86.25.50.10 |
Ah, I was wondering if he'd started using a pseudonym. | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 88.104.140.73 |
Understood :>). John Travis mentioned VOLK at Alt.Fiction on Saturday. NASTY PIECE OF WORK was around before I started getting involved with the small press. | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 88.104.140.73 |
Thank you Steve! Much appreciated :>). | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 88.104.140.73 |
And I hasten to add it was Joel's idea and then he asked me. | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 212.219.233.223 |
Does "Volk" have anything to do with Stephen Volk? | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 88.104.140.73 |
Everyone keeps asking that :>). No it isn't. Great to have you in the antho..Rhys! | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.74 |
Hurrah for all, not least Dani Serra! | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
This will be good. Ally and I were clear from the start that this would not be a catalogue of atrocities, but a book of strong, angry political narratives that embodied a positive awareness of human rights. And that's what we have. As Ally says, there are many decisions still to make, but we should have a final ToC before long. | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 212.219.233.223 |
Remember, Joel: careless ToC costs lives! | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 88.104.140.73 |
Pete Tennant in WHITE NOISE, BLACK STATIC kindly ran a rather nice promo for it in issue 16 April-May. People are starting to talk about it on blogs and FB, and posting the link back to Gray Friar Press. | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 61.216.46.95 |
Well done, Joel and Ally. | ||
| Skunsworth (Skunsworth) Username: Skunsworth Registered: 05-2009 Posted From: 92.16.93.143 |
This is looking very fine indeed - extremely pleased to be a part of it! S | ||
| Steve Bacon (Stevebacon) Username: Stevebacon Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 90.204.111.249 |
Top stuff. Can't wait to read this antho. Congrats to Joel and Ally and the contributors. | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 88.104.140.73 |
'This will be good.' It will and thank you! | ||
| Mark West (Mark_west) Username: Mark_west Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.171.253.12 |
Sounds great | ||
| Simon Bestwick (Simon_b) Username: Simon_b Registered: 10-2008 Posted From: 86.24.209.217 |
I'm in a few anthologies this year, but none I'm prouder to be in. | ||
| Mark_samuels (Mark_samuels) Username: Mark_samuels Registered: 04-2010 Posted From: 86.133.23.20 |
This was invitation only, I presume? I'd have been up for it otherwise. Mark S. | ||
| Mark_samuels (Mark_samuels) Username: Mark_samuels Registered: 04-2010 Posted From: 86.133.23.20 |
Actually, this might be interesting. How were the contents decided upon? I mean, I'd have loved to have been in this one, so how would have I gone about being considered for publication? Mark S. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.197.209 |
Mark... I wish you'd taken this up with me directly instead of raising it here. There have been issues, stuff has gone on, that meant Ally and I didn't contact you. That might seem unfair, but it reflects the fact that things said have consequences. And for the record, two of your published stories would have been worth considering for reprint. Arguments within the genre are regrettable and best avoided. And nobody pushed me to make any decisions I made. This isn't a great answer, but you have to be mindful of your own impact on other people's sensibilities. If you want to discuss this further, you're welcome to e-mail me. | ||
| Mark_samuels (Mark_samuels) Username: Mark_samuels Registered: 04-2010 Posted From: 86.133.23.20 |
I thought so. Thanks Joel. Mark S. | ||
| Mark_samuels (Mark_samuels) Username: Mark_samuels Registered: 04-2010 Posted From: 86.133.23.20 |
Now I know I'm blacklisted. Mark S. | ||
| Mark_samuels (Mark_samuels) Username: Mark_samuels Registered: 04-2010 Posted From: 86.133.23.20 |
So much for the right to free speech and holding an opinion that doesn't tie in with group-think. Great. Mark S. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.172.148 |
Do I really have to spell it out... there is no blacklist, Mark, and no-one is trying to cause you problems but when you are engaged in an unnecessary conflict with someone, a project that that person is central to is not a project you'll be involved in. There's really no need to assume you're the victim of some anti-Mark campaign, or that your work is not held in high regard. It just comes down to etiquette. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.172.148 |
Can I request that any further discussion on this point be conducted off-site? Thanks. | ||
| Mark_samuels (Mark_samuels) Username: Mark_samuels Registered: 04-2010 Posted From: 86.133.23.20 |
I actually think it necessary that RCMBers realise that anyone who criticises the work of a certain individual who posts here is liable to be blacklisted. From what you've said Joel, had I not criticised the work of that certain individual, I would have been considered for inclusion in your anthology. Sorry, but it's a matter of principle, for me. Mark S. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.245.75 |
Er - can I change the subject with a question that I've just been wondering about lately, now that I've finally gotten back into reading anthologies? (And this one looks good!) I've just been curious how the whole payment thing works for writers - I don't mean actual amounts, but is there some standard, or is every anthology different? Like this Ellen Datlow I'm reading, maybe vs. an all original anthology. Are authors paid a set amount for their story, and/or they get royalties? Or is everything based on sales, so they get an upfront amount vs. actual sales that occur? Are they paid per word, or are amounts wildly negotiated, depending on the author, the length, etc.? Do name authors make more if the anthology uses their names on the covers, etc., to sell them (like Ramsey's name or Stephen King's name)? Does placement in an anthology mean anything - being first, or last, vs. anywhere else? Just wondering if you or anyone would like to peel back the curtain for the lay person, on what goes on to put an anthology together.... | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.172.148 |
Mark, for the love of God, you are missing basic issues of etiquette and decency here. You're making yourself out to be the victim of a smear campaign when nothing of the kind is going on. Just step back and apply some sense. Who are the editors of this book? Representing yourself as a victim is disingenuous. Just be sensible, please. And I have nothing more to say. | ||
| Mark_samuels (Mark_samuels) Username: Mark_samuels Registered: 04-2010 Posted From: 86.133.23.20 |
I have stepped back. But some people can't follow suit. I've got nothing to prove. But others do, and they'll follow up their emptiness with all guns blazing. Mark S. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.172.148 |
Craig that doth vary widely. Check the specific guidelines for any anthology. Professional anthologies normally pay per word as an advance on royalties, with further payments being possible if the book does well enough. One-off payments are also common, the aim normally being to save on paperwork rather than to exploit the author. It's possible that famous authors might get higher rates, but I suspect the impetus would come from them rather than the editor. Never Again is an unusual case in that the only people getting paid are the printers: any profits will be donated to human rights charities. The figures will be made public. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.245.75 |
Thanks, Joel, that's illuminative. And by the way, I read that, on the site, about donations from proceeds being made to various organizations. That's commendable! I will promise to pony up come September.... | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.172.148 |
Mark, if you want to blame anyone, blame me. My decisions are based on my own criteria of etiquette. No-one is twisting my arm. Your support for the principle of this anthology is appreciated. Why can't you take on board the very straightforward response I have offered? How is it a matter of principle if that involves writing off very obvious issues of good manners? | ||
| Mark_samuels (Mark_samuels) Username: Mark_samuels Registered: 04-2010 Posted From: 86.133.23.20 |
I'd love to be a part of this project, with my work providing aid to these causes, but again, I'm denied being able to do so by personal animosity. Dance around it any way you like, but that's how it is. And it stinks. Mark S. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.172.148 |
Blame me and my own personal standards of etiquette, manners and good behaviour. Don't blame any conspiracy or pressure you might imagine. And don't think I don't care. | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 88.104.140.73 |
Thank you to Paul Brazill for spreading the word on the anthology. http://pdbrazill.blogspot.com/2010/06/guest-blogger-allyson-bird-never-again.htm l | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 80.4.12.3 |
Mark: there are plenty of editors who often 'forget' to invite me to contribute to anthologies or other projects, usually because of my 'opinions' or perceived 'behaviour' or whatever. In a recent situation, a publisher overruled an editor who had already accepted one of my stories, simply because I was on that publisher's blacklist and he had forgotten to inform the editor. That's the way the game is played. Complaining about it is pointless, a waste of time and energy. If you were the editor of an anthology would you ever solicit submissions from me? Be honest. The answer is that you wouldn't. And if I was editing an anthology I certainly would never ask you for a contribution. But so what? There are thousands of other anthologies out there. | ||
| Stu (Stu) Username: Stu Registered: 04-2008 Posted From: 86.16.9.159 |
So was the antho invitation only or not? I always assumed it was as I never saw any guidelines. In fact when I first heard about the book several months ago I thought the contents had already been decided. It was only when I read somewhere (probably on Facebook) that another author was currently working on a story that they intended to submit to the antho that I contacted Ally and asked if it would be okay if I sent something. | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 88.104.140.73 |
Invite only, Stu. We kept to that but as the months went by and we realised what word count we had to play with we said yes to a few enquiries for consideration. | ||
| Stu (Stu) Username: Stu Registered: 04-2008 Posted From: 86.16.9.159 |
Fair enough. Just so long as I wasn't the only one trying to gate-crash. | ||
| Skunsworth (Skunsworth) Username: Skunsworth Registered: 05-2009 Posted From: 92.16.93.143 |
Mark: the expression 'as you reap so shall you sow' comes to mind. I'm assuming (although I've no doubt I'll be told I'm wrong) that if you ever edited an anthology that Ally and I wouldn't be invited to contribute. Swings and roundabouts, I'd say. S | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 80.4.12.3 |
I agree with that, Simon. I don't think you, Ally or myself would be invited to submit anything to a Mark Samuels anthology, but does it really matter? There's plenty of room for everyone in the writing world and plenty of anthologies are being created all the time... Of all the anthologies that I most regret not receiving an invitation for, the Jack Vance 'Dying Earth' tribute sticks in my throat the hardest. I would have done something truly special for that but I simply wasn't invited. Certain authors who did appear in that anthology had previously confessed to not caring much for Vance's work -- so why the heck was I left out? But that's just the way the cookie crumbles. No use in fretting about it! | ||
| Mark_samuels (Mark_samuels) Username: Mark_samuels Registered: 04-2010 Posted From: 86.133.23.20 |
What we're talking about is a co-edited book and Joel has often expressed high regard for my fiction. Were it edited solely by Ally I would have had no interest in it. Mark S. | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 80.4.12.3 |
That's a bizarre comment, Mark. Surely it's the theme of an anthology that's important rather than the editor? Assuming you truly believe in that theme of course... | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.26.154.208 |
Come on, guys. Let's not squabble. The antho's theme is about rising above such difficulties, surely. | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 80.4.12.3 |
OK, I won't squabble... Talking about Fascism, one of my favourite anti-Fascist books is The Beautiful Antonio by Vitaliano Brancatti, an Italian novelist who was actually a member of the Fascist Party in the 1930s before he "woke up" and changed his politics completely. The novel is a satire on the compulsory state of permanent virility that all good Italian Fascist males were supposed to endure! | ||
| Skunsworth (Skunsworth) Username: Skunsworth Registered: 05-2009 Posted From: 92.16.93.143 |
I might squabble! :-) It's a shame your feelings have been hurt, Mark, but, like I say, the whole reaping and sowing thing comes to mind. S | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.241.194 |
Rhys, have you read Venedikt Yerofeev's short anti-Stalinist novel Moscow Stations? It's a surreal stream-of-consciousness account of a drunken train journey, blending humour and terror to convey the experience of life under a coercive, bureaucratic regime. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 06-2008 Posted From: 86.152.176.45 |
Hey, just realised I wasn't invited. | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 80.4.12.3 |
If I complained about every invite-only anthology I don't get an invite to, I would be complaining every day of my life, with the possible exception of Sundays. No Joel: alas I don't know that novel and I've never heard of the writer. I might keep an eye out for it now, though. So thanks for the recommendation. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 06-2008 Posted From: 86.152.176.45 |
If I complained about every invite-only anthology I don't get an invite to, I would be complaining every day of my life, with the possible exception of Sundays ================ Indeed, Rhys. Me too. And I've been depending on invites in the last 10 years, as I haven't been submitting off my own initiative. I was making the point to show Mark that he wasn't the only RCMB regular not invited. Also, to Joel, when was 'good manners' of an author something that determines a good story? I think I should resurrect Nemonymous! | ||
| Skunsworth (Skunsworth) Username: Skunsworth Registered: 05-2009 Posted From: 92.16.93.143 |
Christ, if I missed out on antho invites that I wanted to be in, I'd be a distraught bearded person most days! I think that part of not being distraught is called 'growing a skin'! And I'm not sure I'm spelling distraught right! Des: Just read the Where the Heart is Review - nice one! S | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.3.156 |
Okay, here's a new question I have about anthologies, because some of the "complaints" above seem to imply something I'm not aware of: If an author is invited to be part of anthology, is the editor/s then obligated to publish said work submitted? If someone were invited to submit a story, say, and it turned out to be a stinking turd, or not on-topic enough, or what have you - is the editor then stuck having to put that, say, stinking off-topic turd into the anthology, because hey, that's just what he got?... | ||
| Skunsworth (Skunsworth) Username: Skunsworth Registered: 05-2009 Posted From: 92.16.93.143 |
Craig: no! An invite doesn't guarantee inclusion. As an author, even when I'm invitred to submit, I know I have to produce something good to be included. If an antho has a pseific theme or guidelines, I also have to make sure that I prodice something good and that follows the rules. Only if I do that can I expect to be included... S | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.26.154.208 |
Absolutely not, Craig. Fortunately, all my lovely authors in the HEART antho did good. Cos they're lovely. Except Unsworth, who's a beardy weirdy. | ||
| Simon Bestwick (Simon_b) Username: Simon_b Registered: 10-2008 Posted From: 86.24.209.217 |
Yup- what Gary and Mr Unsworth said above. And can I just add that I'm proud to be in the anthology. | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 88.104.140.73 |
We have more stories to reread this week. Rest assured (those who haven't been told yet) we are still going through the submissions...discussing them...and will announce a full TOC in the near future. Of course all authors definately accepted have been told. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.26.154.208 |
Mr Bestwick has found a way around this problem. He submits 34,765 stories on the desired theme and you get to picky you of them. Ingenious. | ||
| Simon Bestwick (Simon_b) Username: Simon_b Registered: 10-2008 Posted From: 86.24.209.217 |
That's an unpardonable exaggeration, Prof. No more than 33,237. Some perspective, please. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.26.154.208 |
My maths is clearly as poor as my spelling: "picky you of them"??? | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.153.248 |
The whole closed anthology thing is difficult. The demands of time get in the way. You just choose a bunch of writers whom you know to have an interest in a theme, and assume the rest will not feel disparaged. One anthology will have very different needs from another. If we'd invited every writer whose work we know and respect the project would have become unmanageable. Apologies to anyone who feels they should have had a shot at this, and apologies in advance to those whose shortlisted stories don't make the final cut. | ||
| Gcw (Gcw) Username: Gcw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.158.238.131 |
As Soozy just said, "Piss someone off , you don't expect an invite to the party." Dats Life I'm afraid. gcw | ||
| Mark_samuels (Mark_samuels) Username: Mark_samuels Registered: 04-2010 Posted From: 86.133.23.20 |
Well, apparently, I'm once again a hot topic for SKU on his gossip-mongering blog. I'm sure some of you will now rush over to read it and provide appropriate applause. Jolly nice of you. Mark S. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.26.154.208 |
Oh, come on, Mark. The phrase "some of you" sounds all wrong, as if some secret society has been established, each member of which is pro-Ally, anti-Mark. As the publisher of this antho, I feel the need to state that I belong to neither ostensible 'camp'. I can see both sides of the issue, and that's why I've remained silent over it. And for the record, if I'd have been the editor of this antho, I'd have been keen to have you onboard. I'm a great admirer of your work. But I'm not the editor, and I made it clear early-doors that both Joel and Ally should have carte blanche in their decisions about potential contributors. If Joel says that he didn't approach you because of the reasons he states (see above), then I personally think that these reasons should be believed and that he should be trusted. He's not a bullshitter. He's honest and smart enough to see all the complexities of this situation. I hope everyone else can do so, too, though I fear - if an entente isn't achieved soon - then it may become something which does the spirit of the book no service at all and shows that the genre is incapable of practicing what it intends to preach. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.26.154.208 |
And if honesty is what we're after, I personally think Simon Kurt Unsworth's latest blog might have sensibly excluded any reference to this issue. It's not useful at this stage. | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 212.219.233.223 |
Simon's comments about Mark Samuels are fairly mild though, to be honest, and I doubt Mark really feels wounded by them. I know we all occasionally pretend to be thin-skinned for tactical reasons but we're not really that thin-skinned, are we? I bear Mark Samuels all the ill world in the world, and he bears me an equal amount of malice, but does it really bother either of us? No. I'd like to put him in a bag and hurl him over a cliff, but will knowledge of my desire in this regard spoil his day for even one single second? I doubt it. And vice versa. I have been involved in many internet battles over the years, and witnessed many others, and I've never seen a single victory or defeat in all that time. Impotence seems to be the main result of all the wasted words. Moving on... The theme of NEVER AGAIN is one of the most important of any anthology that has come to my attention in recent years. I believe that Joel Lane has stated that genre fiction is among the most reactionary of all kinds of fiction, and I'm sure he's right in that assessment. But why is genre fiction so reactionary? The ultimate problem, I fear, is that a form of 'fascism' (with a lowercase f) is a basic part of human nature. I suspect that a form of 'socialism' is also a basic part of human nature but I conclude that the fascist part is stronger and more elemental than the socialist part. So the first step in opposing fascism requires an effort of conscious will against our own dark emotional drives; and this fight must take place before the greater outer struggle can commence. I, for one, am in constant struggle with my own emotions and urges. True morality consists in using your reason to overrule your emotions when your emotions are inappropriate -- an extremely difficult task. I don't really trust people who claim to only have 'good' intentions. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 06-2008 Posted From: 86.152.176.45 |
I wish the book well. But this being a discussion forum, I will say that I am not personally at all in tune with the *reasons* given above for exclusion of MS fiction from this book as opposed to the exclusion itself which is none of my business. | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 212.219.233.223 |
> I am not personally at all in tune with the *reasons* given above for exclusion of MS fiction from this book... That's because he's your friend, Des. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 06-2008 Posted From: 86.152.176.45 |
Rhys, that is an utter rubbish comment and you know it. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 06-2008 Posted From: 86.152.176.45 |
I was one of the prime supporters of the Allyson Bird position in the row last year, also. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.26.154.208 |
See? | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 212.219.233.223 |
I do. | ||
| Johnny_mains (Johnny_mains) Username: Johnny_mains Registered: 04-2010 Posted From: 82.22.75.99 |
Mark - lets presume for a moment that Mr Fry and I were doing an anthology (just for the record we're not)and Ally wanted to get in - I would scorch the earth to keep her as far away from it as humanly possible. As far as I'm concerned the chances that she will appear in an anthology I'll ever work on is near to non-existent and I'm sure she wouldn't want to appear in an anthology that I'm working on. Fair enough. Now Gary would know the reasons and as co-editor would hopefully concur with what my feelings on it would be. So, take a step back and understand why I think it is you were not asked. Ally doesn't want to touch you with a bargepole, and that's fair and understandable given the shit that's been happening for so long. Joel, as co-editor would prefer to do it with Ally on board than for her to leave the project - and the knock on effect to the cause they are supporting would be rather sad. Mark, as a friend, I would say just walk away from this one. There will be other anthologies. | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 212.219.233.223 |
It's a bizarre idea that an editor should ever need to give a reason for not wishing to include a particular author. If I was editing an anthology there are plenty of authors I wouldn't consider including -- even before reading their submissions. That's my prerogative. I don't have to justify it. When Harlan Ellison was editing the first Dangerous Visions anthology, he deliberately refused to consider anything by Thomas Disch for reasons of personal dislike (Ellison was quite open about this). So what? Was Ellison damaged by the incident? No. Was Disch damaged? No. As the actress said to the cliche, it's a storm in a teacup... | ||
| Skunsworth (Skunsworth) Username: Skunsworth Registered: 05-2009 Posted From: 92.16.93.143 |
Gary - I put the stuff on my blog (rather than here) because my blog is my personal space, and I wanted to have a bit of a rant about a person's behaviour that I thought (and still think) is childish and rather pathetic. I deliberately didn't put anything similar here, because this board feels like it should remain more about reasoned argument. I also don't advertise my blog here, for the same reason, although I agree that this is beginning to threaten to bury the antho, which isn't the point. I'll bet most people here wouldn't have read my blog if MS hadn't raised it here! Mark: 'gossip-mongering'? Explain please. I think you'll find that there's nothing on my blog (either in this entry or in earlier entries) that's not either my own very specific opinion, or fact (this has been my approach all along when doing blog entries - hardly gossip! Indeed, if you remember, I removed a large piece about your earlier silliness when the Black Book of Horror 6 came out, so that readers wouldn't have their opinions affected before reading either of our stories). And, factually, it was you that raised this issue and started this discssion in a public venue rather than via private email, which is what most of us would probably not have done, thinking that these things are better thrashed out in private. If I was going to gossip, I'd have put something like 'it has come to my notice that Mark Samuels was recently see stalking badgers along the verges of Lakenheath, wishing he'd won a BFS award and muttering under his breath about being treated very badly indeed, poor sap'. But I didn't. Ultimately, this belongs in the category of 'we're never going to agree with or like each other', which is fine - I neither want nor need Mark's respect or liking, and I'm sure he doesn't want mine. I just wish he'd take responsibility for the outcomes of his actions - you can't talk about people the way Mark did and then expect to be invited to be involved in the things they do later. At this point, unless Mark wants to keep banging on about people not wanting to play out with him, I'm happy to shut up about it. All I'll add, as a final point, is to suggest, Mark, that if people provide 'appropriate applause' when they read my blog, it may mean they agree with me. Ever thought about that? Back on track: Never Again, whoever is involved, is sure to be a fine anthology, with laudable aims and a good, beating heart at its core Let's celebrate it for the right reasons, not the wrong ones. S | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.252.97 |
Thanks, Gary, Skuns, et.al. It does seem the horror anthology has "come back," from my completely anecdotal, totally random, probably mistaken POV. But I have taken notice of a great deal more new-ish horror anthologies in my local Borders bookstores (including not a few THE DEAD THAT WALKs), many more than before - I'd say in the last year or so, the amount has about doubled, from what I've seen. I'm noting this myself, who has, myself, come back to wanting to read such collections again, after a long time burned-out... coincidence? Probably. But I am seeing something going on... I think.... | ||
| Steve Bacon (Stevebacon) Username: Stevebacon Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 90.204.111.249 |
Mark, if you had been invited, and submitted a story that was subsequently rejected, might there have been suspicion that is was because of yours and Ally's history, and not based on the story's merit? I'm not saying anyone here is unprofessional enough to do that; I'm just saying that Joel and Ally might have considered that in their reason for not inviting. I personally think you're a fine writer, and I suspect you might have contributed a wonderful piece of work - given the theme - but I can also think of many other authors who (I'm guessing) were not invited to contribute. Did Gary F invite you to contribute to his anthology? If not, why no hard feeling there? Surely you must have anticipated this from Joel and Ally when the project was announced? A dignified silence might have been the best response. As it is, it could be perceived as bitterness. In my mind, though, I think it's a tad mischievous. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.26.154.208 |
Well, I did ask Mark S to contribute to Poe's Progeny many years ago, but he was - quite fairly, since that's his principle - asking for more money than I could afford. I would consider any independent submission from Mark S - for a standalone book, maybe - like a shot. He's an important writer. Simon U: fair enough. It's your blog; you can put what you want on it. But it's also true that the great majority of folk on here who are involved in this issue are also on FaceBook and you certainly drew attention to it there. I just don't think it served any purpose than stoking fires better left as embers. But ultimately it's nothing to do with me. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 06-2008 Posted From: 86.152.176.45 |
It's a bizarre idea that an editor should ever need to give a reason for not wishing to include a particular author. ================ Agreed. But a reason was given - therefore it's a reason that invites being addressed. | ||
| Skunsworth (Skunsworth) Username: Skunsworth Registered: 05-2009 Posted From: 92.16.93.143 |
Fair point: I always advertise my blog on FB, as well as twitter. Perhaps I should have left it alone, but then, as ever, if we keep leaving things alone, nothing ever changes, does it? And people keep getting away with acting like children and the message (delivered loud and clear via our silence) is that acting that way is okay. And it's not. Right, I shall now send a message about this whole sorry situation with my silence! Not about the antho, of course, which I shall continue to champion! S | ||
| Mark_samuels (Mark_samuels) Username: Mark_samuels Registered: 04-2010 Posted From: 86.133.23.20 |
A few things. (1) Had I been editing this anthology with Joel and it had come out that a condition of my co-editorship was that Ally's work be excluded, I'd love to have seen the reaction from certain quarters here. I guarantee that a "desperately seeking sympathy" email would have been fired off by Ally to every author and editor in her address book, as well as spread around on facebook. There would have been an absolute uproar about it, with SKU sticking his oar in at the first opportunity. (2) And while I think of it: SKU is the last person to lecture me on "professionalism". When he gets bounced by, say a publisher like Ex Occidente, solely on grounds of not providing work of sufficient quality, he squeals (rather than "whines", as apparently I do!) about it on his blog. When he's had a couple of shandies his own "childish" side comes to fore and he might do something like post a nasty unprovoked personal remark, say, about James Herbert. In his defence, however, sometimes, when he's sobered up, he'll apologise and petition for the removal of all evidence. For some reason SKU has decided to present himself as THE paragon of respectable probity: this is the funniest aspect of the whole thing. He's been told by people privately that he's at fault for getting involved in something that was none of his business. He knows it: hence his "oh I'm just a good guy trying to do good" act. Yeah, right, pull the other one. (3) I long ago learnt that to ignore Rhys is the best policy. If you reply to him without courting his favour as a self-proclaimed genius he eventually "threatens" you with violence. Admittedly, though, this is funny; and I've since lost count of the number of people he's said he'll bash. It's quite a list. (4) The reason I wasn't in Poe's Progeny had nothing to do with me "not being offered enough money". It was do with the fact that Gary already accepted a "Poe" themed story that had preceded my submission. I think it was the Mike O'Driscoll one. Which was cool. No problem with that. There, that wasn't so difficult was it? Mark S. | ||
| Skunsworth (Skunsworth) Username: Skunsworth Registered: 05-2009 Posted From: 92.16.93.143 |
Most of this I'll leave, except to correct a factual inaccuracy: I have emails from Dan at EO offering me a collection based on the work I'd already submitted - and I'd appreciate being told if Dan is saying otherwise. My posts about EO were based mostly on the levels of professionalism that Dan was showing (or not showing, to be more accurate) and the fact that his later messages to me (and to others at the same period) were both offensive and incorrect. It's laudable that you defend your current publisher, Mark, even if his reputation is getting slowly worse and worse, and I can only hope that you aren't adversely affected by the fallout of this. I have a suggestion to make: I think this thread should be locked now. I don't believe it should be deleted, as I think that people should still be able to read what everyone has said in this increasingly ill-tempered debate and make their own minds up about who's at fault and who's a paragon of virtue and sense. If another thread is needed about the etiquette of editing/publishing anthos, then let's start one - that way Never Again (which I think everyone agrees is a good thing on many levels, not least of which is that it's looking like a good book) isn't buried under this rubbish. Another thread for Never Again is certainly needed, but perhaps we could agree to keep discussion on that thread about the contents of the antho, etc, and put our arguments on the other thread? Just a thought. S | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 88.104.140.73 |
I agree about not deleting the thread. I'll set a new one up for the anthology, soon. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.26.154.208 |
>>>(4) The reason I wasn't in Poe's Progeny had nothing to do with me "not being offered enough money". It was do with the fact that Gary already accepted a "Poe" themed story that had preceded my submission. I think it was the Mike O'Driscoll one. Which was cool. No problem with that. I'm sorry, but that's incorrect. And I'm hoping you're not thinking that I made that point to set you in a poor light. I didn't at all (because I don't believe it does). The situation was that I was seeking a M R James comtributor and asked you, who very decently said yes but - also very decently - asked for a fee beyond my means. Then I asked Terry Lamsley, who was too busy at the time. Finally, Adam Nevill got in touch and that was that. I'm not going to suggest anything so vulgar as "I have an audit trail of emails to demonstrate this", but, well, I do. You didn't submit to PP, Mark, as much as I wanted you there. Anyway, I'm not getting involved in a splinter dispute. But the facts are facts. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.26.154.208 |
As for locking/deleting the thread: only one person gets to make that decision, and that's the owner. I've already consulted him and he says the thread stays. | ||
| Skunsworth (Skunsworth) Username: Skunsworth Registered: 05-2009 Posted From: 92.16.93.143 |
Fair enough: I bow to Ramsey's decision! :-) S | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 06-2008 Posted From: 86.152.176.45 |
Before locking this thread, I'd like to set my personal take on the possible agenda for any future thread discussing issues thrown up by this thread:- People are discussing this issue because a corner of the curtain has been voluntarily lifted publicly here regarding its process. It is, however, a complex subject not one worthy of argument or recrimination or diminishing the chances of the book to succeed. The subject surrounds considerations regarding (1) a charity book (do you choose authors with known sympathy for the ethos of the charity, for example?) (2) a debate concerning invite only anthologies and (3) dual editorship. It also concerns the objective of the book to sell so at to do its best for the charity (one I support): do they choose the best stories available over author-names (reprints etc) or vice versa or hopefully both - and which of the editors has a veto or whether they go for half the stories chosen each? It seems that Mark Samuels would have been in this book (on the count of likely one of the best stories available *and* his name-credit) an optimum for the book had there not been a row last year (one in which I took against his position). I think Mark's exclusion is a shame. And a line should have been drawn under last year's row before now by the parties involved for the sake of the genre. | ||
| Kate (Kathleen) Username: Kathleen Registered: 09-2009 Posted From: 213.122.209.76 |
This thread is in desperate need of lightening up.  | ||
| Stu (Stu) Username: Stu Registered: 04-2008 Posted From: 86.24.11.144 |
Just to go off a tangent I was listening to some 60s music and stumbled across this Petula Clark track. Not entirely sold on the song yet but I love the story about this particular performance. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NmMRLQIPHk After Clark had written the anti-war song she invited Harry Belafonte to duet on her NBC special and during one of the takes she puts her hand on his arm. The show's sponsors freaked out, fearing that it would cause an uproar in the Bible Belt and insisted a different version was used. Clark and her husband (the show's producer) not only refused but destroyed all the other takes of the song, forcing the sponsor to back down. Result! | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 88.104.140.73 |
'As for locking/deleting the thread: only one person gets to make that decision, and that's the owner. I've already consulted him and he says the thread stays.' Des...A few posts up. | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 88.104.140.73 |
As with many other invite only anthologies the editors decide who to ask. Joel and I both made lists of who we wanted to invite to the anthology, merged them and sent off emails. We obviously couldn't invite everyone. And both of us have to agree on a story before it gets in. If one of us disagree we discuss it at great length. If we don't agree on a particular story (it has happened with one) Gary Fry will decide on that one. It is, in fact, working out very well with very little disagreement and the anthology will be a mix of relatively new authors and well established ones. | ||
| Kate (Kathleen) Username: Kathleen Registered: 09-2009 Posted From: 213.122.209.76 |
As a newbie I'm delighted to have been given a chance and I'm very excited about the project. | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 88.104.140.73 |
Which takes us full circle and back to the beginning of the thread. Very happy to have you on board, Kate. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 06-2008 Posted From: 86.152.176.45 |
Ally, my post was fearing the thread would be locked but my post crossed with Gary's saying it wouldn't be locked. I am pleased that it hasn't. BTw, regarding 'name-credit', I believe this book will hopefully sell beyond the disputes of our narrow circle (ie take off into the wider world) - where Mark's name means a lot in the Horror genre and not for internet disputes. If some writers are in the book that have openly lobbied against the Horror genre ethos in the past, it's good they are in there because they must have provided great stories. The bottom line. No other reason for barring anyone other than that, presumably. And also, hopefully, that their name will sell the book. I think of books as things on shelves in 50 years time. They will live or die as great books, whatever the disputes or failings that preceded them. The books should be published through thick and thin. And good luck with this one. I'd say the same about Ex Occidente Press books that someone mentioned above. | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 88.104.140.73 |
Des. I can only point you back in the direction of all Joel's comments earlier in the thread which I agree with. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 06-2008 Posted From: 86.152.176.45 |
Fair enough. | ||
| Skunsworth (Skunsworth) Username: Skunsworth Registered: 05-2009 Posted From: 92.16.93.143 |
Des: whilst I'd broadly agree (especially about the longevity of books and that good ones last way past our 'in the now' concerns), I'd still imagine that most editors (particularly of closed anthologies) should be able to reserve the right to invite and not invite who they like to be involved. After all, they have to live with the results of their invitation, and produce a product (and books are product if we expect them to sell) that they can hold and be completely happy with. Ultimately, the book will succeed or not, based on the editors decision/s, and we can judge their actions then - if Never Again turns out to be rubbish, then we can throw stone at Ally and Joel to out hearts content (although I don't believe we'll have to!). One of the criticisms might well be that there are significant authors missing - I don't know til I read the book. So, to go back to an earlier motif of the thread: Never Again. Lookin' good, folks, lookin' mighty good. And I for one am pleased and proud to be a part of it, with or without Mark Samuels or any of the others authors who may not have been invited, or who were invited and didn't have time to contribute. S | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.26.154.208 |
I can't lock the thread and it isn't going to be deleted. Let me ask all to now resist adding to it. Here's a line drawn under it: _____________________________________________________________________________ | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.155.203.69 |
I think it's ok to have 'invite only' anthos, if you're after a certain feel or vision to your book. It's like a movie or play put together by a producer, using tools and specific individuals to reach an end. Not nice to be on the outside looking in, I suppose, but what the hey - if you've a good piece of work it'll see the light of day eventually. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.155.203.69 |
BTW while I think it's ok I also think there would be more chance of an antho as opposed to a film or play being even more successful if it were 'open'. But yes, time and workloads do play their parts. | ||
| Skunsworth (Skunsworth) Username: Skunsworth Registered: 05-2009 Posted From: 92.16.93.143 |
I like Gary's line. I'm under it, lookin' up S | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 06-2008 Posted From: 86.152.176.45 |
that most editors (particularly of closed anthologies) should be able to reserve the right to invite and not invite who they like to be involved. ================= Yes, I've agreed with that already. Here, however, on an open public discussion forum (open to contention, agreement, and regarding a charity book against discrimination) - it is at least strongly implied (a volunteering of information) that someone - whose work in my view would have helped the book sell more - is not invited because of his "manners' in an internet dispute (one in which I incidentlly thought Mark was in the wrong). I was just querying that position as I believe others have done outside of this thread. I am now happy that I have got that off my chest, hope the book does well and intend to keep quiet unless provoked! | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 06-2008 Posted From: 86.152.176.45 |
I wrote my piece before reading about Gary's line. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.26.154.208 |
Just an amiable request, folks. Feel free to kick the fuck out of each other elsewhere. | ||
| Skunsworth (Skunsworth) Username: Skunsworth Registered: 05-2009 Posted From: 92.16.93.143 |
Who's meeting in the park after school? We can form gangs and throw old coke cans and bits of paper at each other! S | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 62.121.31.177 |
As I've said elsewhere, the theme and purpose of NEVER AGAIN is one of the most important I've ever encountered in any anthology. The question remains: what effect will it have? Will it convert any readers with fascist tendencies to a more tolerant outlook? Very unlikely. So what is the good of it? And what is the good of writers saying (as they often do) they they "support" the cause? My own view is that the main good that will come of this anthology is that the editors, contributors and readers will have 'nailed their colours to the mast', so to speak -- in other words made a statement of intent (opposition to fascism). That's not much of an achievement really, but it is something; and every such statement in the world of genre writing is important. If Mark Samuels is genuinely disappointed at not being able to lend his support to this cause, there is still a way he can get involved: he can make a direct donation to the Sophie Lancaster Foundation or other anti-fascist group of his choosing. This seems to be a good solution to the entire spat. | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 62.121.31.177 |
Incidentally, the great Portuguese writer Josι Saramago died three days ago -- he consistently opposed fascism with every fibre of his prose. I haven't seen many obituaries yet, which seems strange. But what a colossus of literature! | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 85.222.86.72 |
Jose Saramago is very much admired here in Poland, Rhys. I was disheartened to read about the controversy surrounding his novel 'Blindness' (translated, obviously. Haven't read it myself, but I was deeply impressed by the film version, heathen that I am. | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 62.121.31.177 |
I haven't read BLINDNESS either, Frank. It has been on my bookshelf for a year. Time to move it ahead in my reading list, I guess! But THE STONE RAFT is an exquisite novel. | ||
| Mark_samuels (Mark_samuels) Username: Mark_samuels Registered: 04-2010 Posted From: 86.133.23.20 |
Gary For the record, you're quite right about PP. Apologies. I've just realised that was the case, and I'm getting muddled up with something else. Mark S. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.26.154.208 |
No sweat, dude. | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 85.222.86.72 |
Just for the record, and if it makes anybody feel better, I've subbbed to dozens and dozens of anthologies, and not once had an acceptance. Mind you, I don't have a pedigree or reputation as an established writer, so I may be speaking out of my arse. I was once informed that I'd subbbed the same story twice, and that no amount of subterfuge would help guarantee me success. Shortly later there was one more magazine to cross off Ralan's listings as it mysteriously went into forced liquidation  | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 80.4.12.3 |
That doesn't make me feel better, Frank. But I was feeling fine anyway... I have no advice to give you about getting published other than "keep trying". Bland advice; but it's the only thing that ultimately works. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.26.154.208 |
Kidnapping the editor's spouse is useful as a Plan B. | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 85.222.86.72 |
Rhys - Oh, mate, I'm not dismayed. I just wish that with a collection coming out I could generate a bit more interest from some of the anthologies coming out. Though I'd rather be rejected on the grounds of it simply wasn't good enough, and not because I have a collection due out. I've always said, better to be rejeceted by the best, than to be accepted by the worst. | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 85.222.86.72 |
Excuse my repetetive use of phrasal verbs constructions. It might be this which renders my subbing point a moot point | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 80.4.12.3 |
Don't worry, phrasal verb constructions are my favourite! Er... what are they exactly? | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 85.222.86.72 |
I'm just being a smart arse, and not a particularly clever one, if that makes any sense. Phrasal Verb: verb + prepositon/particle (sometimes two prepositions/particles)Two types, separable and non-separable, according to the rules and laws of transitive and intransitive verbs. Quite simply, informal verb constructions that we tend to use in speech more often than their more formal counterparts. e.g He picked him up from the airport. (Separable PV) Verb and preposition can be separated by object. Formal equivalent: He collected him from the airport. Like I said, Rhys, just being a smart arse. Any TEFL teacher knows this, its just terminology. Only useful when you want to sound impressive to people who don't know anything about teaching English as a second language. Unless I've missed the biting irony of your question???  | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 80.4.12.3 |
No irony at all, Frank! I never studied grammar at school or anywhere else. I opted for the sciences and then studied engineering at university. I still have absolutely no idea what 'perfect past participle' and all that other stuff means... | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 85.222.86.72 |
Rhys - you don't need to know. You speak English. Who needs to know what grammatical terminology is when English is your native tongue. I never had grammar at school either. In fact, I don't know anybody who did. Other nationalities, especially in Central Europe and Eastern Europe are amazed that we don't have grammar classes or at least classes which incoporate grammar. Mind you, they have a point, considering the English sometimes spat at me from some drunken dickhead trawling down the street on a Friday night. | ||
| Johnny_mains (Johnny_mains) Username: Johnny_mains Registered: 04-2010 Posted From: 82.22.75.99 |
Back to the anthology: I'm getting a bit fed up at the way Ally and Joel are patting themselves on the back for being so daring, and brave. As if this one antho will forever end fascism, 'cause the fascists will read it and immediately be so shamed they'll change their ways. The cynic in me says 'BFS AWARD BAITER' and I can't help but feel that everyone will pat themselves on the back and talk about the one black friend they have in Hackney. So Joel and Ally, may I present you with the 'Ultimate PC Award For The Best Intentioned Anthology, But Wrong Genre To Do It In' award. love Johnny | ||
| Steve Bacon (Stevebacon) Username: Stevebacon Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 90.204.111.249 |
Come on, Johnny, mate. I thought we were going to leave it now. As for the BFS AWARD BAITER claim, all I can say is that I won't be swayed by the theme when it comes to voting time. It's the stories that count. | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 80.4.12.3 |
You have missed the point, Johnny. It's not about authors "curing" fascism in the wider world -- it's about genre authors (and readers) making a statement about themselves: defining their own positions in the often small-minded and bigoted writing world that we inhabit. | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 88.104.140.73 |
As usual...Johnny, I find your comments rude and offensive. | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 88.104.140.73 |
And wrong. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 06-2008 Posted From: 86.152.176.45 |
Johnny, posterity, years hence, will judge the worth of this book itself, not any of the electronic voices on this thread or elsewhere. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.172.95 |
Rhys indeed, and it's also about demonstrating and exploring the potential of the genre to tackle these issues. As Chris Kenworthy did with Barrington Books: basically saying that just because this is genre fiction, that doesn't mean politics is off limits. There's certainly no illusion that this book will magically impact on political reality just that it will give readers with an interest in these themes access to some worthwhile material. And the fact that we're choosing to reprint quite a few stories demonstrates that many writers were already interested in these themes so bringing those stories together serves a valid literary purpose. As a project it's arguably comparable to the American small press anthology No Nukes in the 1980s, which included Joe R. Lansdale's now-classic tale 'Tight Little Stitches in a Dead Man's Back'. | ||
| Kate (Kathleen) Username: Kathleen Registered: 09-2009 Posted From: 213.122.209.76 |
Joe R. Lansdale's now-classic tale 'Tight Little Stitches in a Dead Man's Back' What a fantastic title! I'll have to look for that one. | ||
| Johnny_mains (Johnny_mains) Username: Johnny_mains Registered: 04-2010 Posted From: 82.22.75.99 |
Ally, always a pleasure and never a chore. | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 88.104.140.73 |
'As a project it's arguably comparable to the American small press anthology No Nukes in the 1980s, which included Joe R. Lansdale's now-classic tale 'Tight Little Stitches in a Dead Man's Back'. Joel. Just reread that after your post and indeed...it is a powerful story. | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 85.222.86.72 |
Johnny - Opinion is important, yours just as much as anybody else's, but baiting people is below the belt. Surely you could have phrased your original statement a little better. I believe the previous disagreement was Mark's feeling about not being invited, not whether Ally or Joel were angling for a BFS award. You do yourself no favours attacking Ally, which is what 'Ally, always a pleasure and never a chore' translates as. Leave it out, mate. | ||
| Johnny_mains (Johnny_mains) Username: Johnny_mains Registered: 04-2010 Posted From: 82.22.75.99 |
Fair enough Frank. Final thought - I just find it highly amusing that it took Ally 20 odd minutes to tell me I was wrong about the reasons behind the anthology after she said my comments were rude and offensive. Her mask slips a little?  | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.74 |
I assume she felt she could reply in her own time, not yours. | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 88.104.140.73 |
'I can't help but feel that everyone will pat themselves on the back and talk about the one black friend they have in Hackney.' I was so annoyed about that remark that I didn't even think of the other comments until later. | ||
| Karim Ghahwagi (Karim) Username: Karim Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 193.89.189.24 |
Johnny Mains: FAIL. I was not going to comment here, frankly this thread is just heartbreaking, particularly reading this squabble going on here amongst some writers whos work I admire a great deal... but Johnny Mains after having tried to contact you regarding the whereabouts of my book, and as I have not heard anything back after a good 8 weeks, despite sending several inquiring mails, and as you are now here making these kind of comments on Joel's and Ally's anthology- a non profit anthology for a good cause mind you, addressing highly relevant, very important issues, whatever the platform or genre- I frankly couldn't help myself. FAIL. I don't want your Pan Book, please cancel my order, kindly return my funds. As you didn't respond to my previous inquiries I was forced to do it here, in public. FAIL. Strike three. | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 88.104.140.73 |
Crossed posts there, Ramsey. Exactly. | ||
| Jonathan (Jonathan) Username: Jonathan Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.109.166.162 |
"frankly this thread is just heartbreaking" Quite. | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 85.222.86.72 |
Johnny - I'm not trying to make you a scapegoat, and I'm not saying you don't have a right to air an opinion, but I've also been guilty (many times) of expressing myself in a way which automatically causes instant calamity, and know that a more reasonable approach is appreciated. And I'm not saying that 'if you attack Ally, you attack us all', as I'm sure it might read that way, but let's be honest it is aimed at Ally, and it is aimed at being offensive. I'm positive you're better than than that. And just for the record, I DO think that it was disappointing that Mark wasn't invited to the anthology, especially considering his talents. BUT, I can understand Joel's reasons why it transpired this way. It does make sense, and seems self-explanatory after everything that has happened in the past, BUT to reiterate, it is a shame indeed he won't be included in the anthology. But, as Rhys said, no point in worrying about one anthology when there are so much mroe out there. I wish Ally and Joel and the anthology the best of luck. | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 85.222.86.72 |
I meant to say any attack on anybody is offensive, but that well-thought out opinion which is not desgined to hurt one specific person is a much better route to take. | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 212.219.233.223 |
When Josι Saramago was told that a film might be made of his life, he was asked what actor he'd like to play him. He instantly replied, "Morgan Freeman." I only learned that yesterday. Anti-fascist to the core, old Josι! | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 85.222.86.72 |
If somebody were to make a film of my life, I'd like Cate Blanchett to play me. With a Ellen Page playing me as a child. | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 212.219.233.223 |
Are you as good looking as Cate Blanchett, Frank? If you are, I might want to fuck you, be warned... | ||
| Johnny_mains (Johnny_mains) Username: Johnny_mains Registered: 04-2010 Posted From: 82.22.75.99 |
Hello Karim. I have no comeback to what you are saying except that TWO books have been sent out to you now. You are more than welcome to air your views/concerns about me on any public forum,that's your right and all the power to you for doing it. warmest Johnny x | ||
| Kate (Kathleen) Username: Kathleen Registered: 09-2009 Posted From: 213.122.209.76 |
I'd like Camille Keaton to play me, please. But with shorter hair. | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 85.222.86.72 |
Rhys - alas, I am not as good looking as Cate Blanchett, but then again, who is? And you'll get nowhere with me by pussy-footing about the bush...there now should ensue a whole array of puns and double puns on that possible word fest as unleashed by my last sentence. Kate - I could Wikipedia Camille Keaton, but that would be cheating, so who is she? Let me guess, a seventies horror film actress, or a theatre actress of today????? Back to 'The Two Faces of Evil'. | ||
| Johnny_mains (Johnny_mains) Username: Johnny_mains Registered: 04-2010 Posted From: 82.22.75.99 |
I would want to be played by a young Freddie Jones. | ||
| Kate (Kathleen) Username: Kathleen Registered: 09-2009 Posted From: 213.122.209.76 |
Frank - Right the first time. From What Have You Done To Solange? and the notorious I Spit On Your Grave. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.55 |
I'd want Rin Tin Tin to play me as an adult and Skippy the bush Kangaroo to play me as a child. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.55 |
voices dubbed by James Earl Jones and Joe pasquale | ||
| Johnny_mains (Johnny_mains) Username: Johnny_mains Registered: 04-2010 Posted From: 82.22.75.99 |
Fascinating story behind Rin Tin Tin http://www.rintintin.com/story.htm An excellent choice of actor Weber... :D | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
I've been a little less upset about this thread since realising last night that it's just an online version of the letters page of a genre fanzine such letters pages having mostly comprised backbiting, chest-beating and faction-mongering since fanzines first began. But with the decline of fanzines and the growth of the internet, the letters page has sprouted off like a rogue tumour and built its own separate tissue culture (it's certainly not any other kind of culture). That's never been one of my favourite pastimes. All I can usefully add is that I can't count the number of Asian, black, Jewish, Romany and other ethnic minority people among my family, friends, colleagues, neighbours and the people whose work I watch, hear or read. Racism and hate crime are everyday realities, but so is the positive functionality of a multi-ethnic society. Horror and speculative fiction are entitled to address real as well as imaginary terrors. Had we been looking at older material we might have sought to reprint Fritz Leiber's 'Belsen Express', Harry Harrison's 'Mute Inglorious Milton', Shirley Jackson's 'The Lottery', Charles Beaumont's 'The Howling Man', Harlan Ellison's 'Pennies, Off a Dead Man's Eyes' and much, much more. | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 212.219.233.223 |
And the greatest and most troubling anti-fascist story of them all... 'Deutsches Requiem' by Jorge Luis Borges, a story based on the truly disturbing conceit that the Nazis actually won the war because what they stood for (violent force) was the thing that became necessary to destroy them. As the narrator of that story declares at one point, "What does it matter that Germany was the anvil and our enemies the hammer, just so long as there was an anvil and hammer..." | ||
| Karim Ghahwagi (Karim) Username: Karim Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 193.89.189.24 |
Well Johnny and I have taken this off site now... where we will try and kiss and make-up... carry on--- | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 06-2008 Posted From: 217.43.30.69 |
...such letters pages having mostly comprised backbiting, chest-beating and faction-mongering since fanzines first began... ==================== Yes indeed. I recall those particularly in DAGON and CEREBRETRON in the late nineteen-eighties where at least two people above appeared. | ||
| Johnny_mains (Johnny_mains) Username: Johnny_mains Registered: 04-2010 Posted From: 82.22.75.99 |
At the behest of a friend, I will no longer talk about NEVER AGAIN and I apologise to Joel from the bottom of my socks if I may have offended him in any way shape or form. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
This is a joint editorial project, Johnny. I can't accept an apology in which Ally is not included. | ||
| Stevie Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
Off the top of my head here are a few oldie horror stories I've been impressed by that deal with fascism/nazism: In The Penal Colony (1914) by Franz Kafka Our Father Who Art In Heaven (1946) by Valentin Katayev The Lottery (1948) by Shirley Jackson The Physiology Of Fear (1954) by C.S. Forester Thanatos Palace Hotel (1960) by Andrι Maurois Putz Dies (1964) by Septimus Dale The Oldest Story Ever Told (1964) by Romain Gary Just The Very Thing They Wanted (1965) by Dino Buzzati The Academy (1965) by David Ely | ||
| Mark_samuels (Mark_samuels) Username: Mark_samuels Registered: 04-2010 Posted From: 86.133.23.20 |
Well, I'm glad to see SKU's claim over on his blog has been proven wrong: "lets face it, does anyone care about Samuels (sic) self-centred and self-opinionated ramblings? No? Thought not." Note how he not only answers his own question (!), but is also egomaniacal enough to state he speaks for everyone (!). Hilarious faction-mongering right there.  Mark S. | ||
| Johnny_mains (Johnny_mains) Username: Johnny_mains Registered: 04-2010 Posted From: 82.22.75.99 |
Heya Joel, I understand and even though it saddens me, I hope you understand that I can't apologise to Ally as the last time I did she threw the apology back at me. Once bitten, twice shy I'm afraid. I'm done on this subject and shall now leave RCMB and delete my account. cheers Jx | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
Nobody's asking you to leave RCMB, Johnny, and there's genuine interest here in your own projects. Just lay off other people, that's all. | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 88.104.140.73 |
The thing is Johnny, you keep attacking me publicly. If you weren't so hell bent on doing it you wouldn't have to apologise (or not). | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 88.104.140.73 |
Posted at exactly the same time there, Joel. | ||
| Stu (Stu) Username: Stu Registered: 04-2008 Posted From: 82.11.100.163 |
>>'Deutsches Requiem' by Jorge Luis Borges, a story based on the truly disturbing conceit that the Nazis actually won the war because what they stood for (violent force) was the thing that became necessary to destroy them. Not as disturbing as Captain Kirk having to sacrifice Joan Collins in order to prevent history altering to a reality where the Nazis win WWII. | ||
| Stevie Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
It gets me every time, Stu. | ||
| Kate (Kathleen) Username: Kathleen Registered: 09-2009 Posted From: 213.122.209.76 |
Too bad that sacrifice couldn't prevent Dynasty.  | ||
| Mark_samuels (Mark_samuels) Username: Mark_samuels Registered: 04-2010 Posted From: 86.133.23.20 |
Funny how SKU never names or criticises Johnny on his blog (and by extension Facebook et al), isn't it? Could it be that he regards Johnny as someone who might be useful for his career--thus he doesn't want to smear him, as he's smeared me, only for that reason? Funny that. Not morally consistent, but funny. Mark S. | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 85.222.86.72 |
When I first got interested in the Small Press, and the genre with regards to writing, publishing, etc, I thought I was joining a community. Yes, I know, people are people, we all have flaws, it's sometimes magnified out of all proportion by the internet, but I still feel 'it' to be rather dishonest, two-faced and largely over-competitive. I used to think, somewhat naively, that horror, being a much maligned genre, would seek to unite its best writers, editors, etc, as outside forces were far from complimentary on what 'we' were doing. But it seems to be an environment of bickering, petty jealousies, and over-inflated egos. I am again utterly dismayed that none of us can ever see eye to eye. Isn't it about time that 'we' all just called it a day and got on with the main matter at hand, which is supposed to be our love of the genre and all the wonderful things it can produce. Aren't there more important, or at least, more enjoyable matters to discuss. I know I have had several blazing rows with people on this board, so I hold my hands up and say I was as guilty of this, too, but come on, lets give this kind of shit the elbow. There are too many talented people here: Ally, Mark, Joel, Johnny, etc, to spend our time banging our collective heads against the wall...again. (I am available for coporate motivational videos and general team building) | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 88.104.140.73 |
and Johnny...do you really think it appropriate to rail against our efforts to get this anthology noticed? Would we go over to your PAN anthology thread and do the same to you? No. And it comes back to etiquette once more. What have you done differently in promoting/raising awareness of your anthology that is different to what we are doing? | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.55 |
Who cares what you think Frank - you think dogs will rule the world after the apocolypse and not cats! Patently ridiculous - a dog could never sneak up on anything, my cat nearly gave me a fucking heart attack last night, the little bastard - so cats would obviously win every time. They have the element of surprise. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
None the less, Frank hasn't hurt anyone's felines. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.55 |
| ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.228.143 |
Frank - what about the UN-talented people here, huh?! What about people like ME?! Are you trying to say *I* shouldn't get a fair shake or be treated kindly, just because *I* can't string words two together? -- -- Doh! | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.55 |
No Craig, the reason you shouldn't get a fair crack of the whip is coz we all hate you. Nothing to do with your lack of talent or the fact that you know shit all about film - you michael bay tromboner | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 85.222.86.72 |
Weber - I believe my last expertly worded, planned and brilliantly executed debate on dogs versus cats to have left you bereft of further foolishness, but alas I see I will have to take you to task over such insolence. Craig - you are not untalented, mate. You write screenplays. I actually think that if you were to sit down and actually write 'something' you would be a cross between Bill Hicks and Harlan Ellison. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.55 |
So would that be Harlan Hicks or Bill Ellison? | ||
| Stu (Stu) Username: Stu Registered: 04-2008 Posted From: 82.11.100.163 |
My fave anti-Nazi story might well be Captain America #275 where Cap goes along in his civvies to help his pals protest against a Neo-Nazi rally. Some of the Jewish protesters present get so worked up by the hate-filled rhetoric of the Neo-Nazis and holocaust deniers that the peaceful counter-protest erupts into violence. Cap has to ride in and save the day before any gets seriously hurt and then angrily confronts the two ringleaders. To the Jew: "Can't you see that in stooping to your own enemy's level you're being made over in his image -- that you are becoming the very thing that you loathe?" To the Neo-Nazi: "I wish I could take you back with me to the day we liberated Diebenwald, let you smell the stomach turning stench of death, let you see the mountains of corpses left behind by the corrupt madmen and murderers you idolize." Both men lunge at Cap and rather than fight them he neatly sidesteps so that they plunge off the stage and knock themselves out in the fall, their own hatred and willingness to inflict violence proving their undoing. I'm well into the classics, me. | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 85.222.86.72 |
You know you love him, Weber. Go on, admit it. It's okay, I still respect you, even if you won't come te morning...ah, more puns headed my way...I presume. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.228.143 |
Frank - I don't know Bill Hicks - ? Weber - aren't you way past your wheeled-out-strapped-to-the-handcart-left-in-the-hallway-for-air time? Shouldn't the nice nurse - with the "wonderful grip" (as you've described her) - have taken you back to your wing of the castle by now?... My my, they are getting lax there, aren't they?... | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 85.222.86.72 |
Craig - you don't know Bill Hicks? Now I know you must be joking. PLEASE. TELL. ME. YOU. ARE. JOKING. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.228.143 |
AHHHH... yes, I'm getting quite addled. I knew the name rang a bell. In fact, a friend loaned me some of the late comic's stand-up, a few of his dvds... oh fuck, which friend was that?... anyway, yes, ha! But no, no, I'm neither of those two, those two are stellar personalities indeed.... | ||
| Stu (Stu) Username: Stu Registered: 04-2008 Posted From: 86.26.75.167 |
Just read Deutsches Requiem. Not bad. But it can't quite match up to the Star Trek episode or the Captain America comic. | ||
| Skunsworth (Skunsworth) Username: Skunsworth Registered: 05-2009 Posted From: 92.16.93.143 |
Hiya all, been away for 3 days with no internet access - did you miss me Seeing eye to eye? How boring would that be! S PS To placate Mr Samuels: Johnny, you were bang out of order. | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 85.222.86.72 |
Okay, not eye to eye, but less arguments based on personality than anything even approaching substantial. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
No arguments at all would be nice. Seriously.  | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
And what's boring, surely, is for discussion on matters of real interest to be constantly drowned by the vuvuzelas of personal conflict. | ||
| Stevie Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
Nice one, Joel. | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 212.219.233.223 |
A proper discussion about anti-fascist fiction would still be nice. Well, not so much a discussion (I rarely see real discussions or real debates on messageboards; that's not what they are for) but readers giving their recommendations, at least. Here's mine for the day... A short story by Italo Calvino entitled 'Beheading the Heads' (it can be found in his collection Numbers in the Dark). It proposes a political system which has an automatic inbuilt anti-dictatorial failsafe mechanism -- the execution of all politicians (including the good ones) every two years and their replacement with fresh volunteers... | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.166.117.210 |
A Hazy Shade of Winter by Simon bestwick is a good 'un (although, I know Simon has gone off the story in recent years). | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 212.219.233.223 |
Anything by Yevgeny Zamyatin... And there's a lesson in Zamyatin's life for any modern western author who feels they are being persecuted, hounded, ostracised or whatever... What any of us have to put up with in that regard is nothing compared with what Zamyatin endured from the Stalinist state. I'll recommend his novel We, of course, but also a short story collection called The Dragon and Other Tales. | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 88.104.140.73 |
'A Hazy Shade of Winter by Simon bestwick is a good 'un (although, I know Simon has gone off the story in recent years).' A great story and one we considered but we went with Malachi in the end. | ||
| Stevie Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
I'd love to read 'We' - heard a lot about it. | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 88.104.140.73 |
'And there's a lesson in Zamyatin's life for any modern western author who feels they are being persecuted, hounded, ostracised or whatever... What any of us have to put up with in that regard is nothing compared with what Zamyatin endured from the Stalinist state.' And the terrible injuries Sophie Lancaster suffered before she died...for being different. | ||
| Skunsworth (Skunsworth) Username: Skunsworth Registered: 05-2009 Posted From: 92.16.93.143 |
Well, if we're going to be serious about the subject rather than frivolous... ...my own take on this is that we nail our colours to whatever masts we can in whatever way we can. Do I think Never Again will change the world? No. Do I think it might do a bit of good by raising some money for a good cause, and one that matters to me? Yes. I'd like to think that some or all of the stories included might make even one person think differently, but I'm not naive enough to be confident in that - I suspect most people who read it will be 'on message' beforehand. So why bother? Well, apart from the money for a good cause, mostly because I believe Ally and Joel are doing this for the best of reasons, to raise awareness of and support for a cause that believe in (Which is why Johnny was, I think, entirely and completely out of order, as his comment implies that Ally and Joel have approached this solely from the perspective of publicity and award-winning (and, by further implication, to gain some positive reflections on themselves, their own careers and to generate some kind of emotional or intellectual rewards simply by being associated with a 'right-on' thing), which I and anyone else who's met or communicated with both of them knows is a bullshit theory. Joel is the only man I've ever known who's seriously discussed the position of porn industry body doubles (no pun intended) in relation to fair employment practice and equalities! Now you tell me he's only doing this for personal gain...). Will being involved help my career? It's possible, I suppose, but I know that's not why I'm involved (believe that or don't as you want) or why I spent the time to write a story that I'm proud of and that I hope people like. In the end, this is as much about making personal statements as it is collective ones, and mine is this: This antho is gonna be ace! Nice one Ally. Nice one Joel. S | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 88.104.140.73 |
'Joel is the only man I've ever known who's seriously discussed the position of porn industry body doubles (no pun intended) in relation to fair employment practice and equalities!' Joel and I have always spoken out against injustice and always will do. When I saw the terrible things going on in europe I went on the demos in the 1990's in Paris and Brussels. This book is a continuation of that but in fiction instead. I've openly discussed sex slavery, oppression of women and about many other terrible things that happen in the world such as the flogging of women in the Sudan. I've always been outspoken about what goes on in the world and I'm not going to stop because of some petty accusations. | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 212.219.233.223 |
One of my motivations for wanting to contribute to this anthology was the show that opposition to fascism doesn't necessarily have to come from the 'left'. I think this is an important point to make. | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 88.104.140.73 |
Very good point. | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 212.219.233.223 |
...which doesn't mean that I'm from the 'right', by the way. There are political positions at a tangent to the simple left-right scale... Having said that, I do appreciate the massive contribution made by the 'left' against fascism and I accept that the majority of opposition has actually come from this direction. Just not all of it, is what I'm saying... One of my favourite anti-Nazi writers is Ernst Junger. He openly criticised Hitler and the Nazi Party in novels such as On the Marble Cliffs, a remarkably brave gesture considering that he was living in Germany at the time. But he criticised the Nazis from a right-wing militaristic standpoint, odd as that may sound -- he wasn't against war, force, the strength of will, elitism, etc, but he was against dishonour, cruelty and irrationality. Oddities like that interest me a lot... | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
I don't remember any discussion about porn industry body doubles. Are you sure we weren't talking about body doubles for erotic scenes in mainstream films? That would seem far more likely, and it comes under the general heading of the treatment of stunt doubles in the film industry. I spend more time, these days, on political activism than I do on horror fandom. Neither is a 'career'. If I have anything resembling a writing career it's news to my bank manager, and believe me if that was the focus I'd be writing novels and trying to sell them commercially, not getting involved in a small press anthology. I've been involved in the weird fiction small press for thirty years there has never been any money in it, and if it's a bridge to professional success then you have to cross that bridge on your own bloody [pun intended] feet. For me, this project is about bringing together two things that strongly interest me: weird fiction and political activism. And as I've already said, my main perspective is as a fan, wanting to celebrate and explore a strand of writing I have cared about for a long time. This is a literary project, not a political project and certainly not a business project. The world of political activism is also fraught with personal agendas and factions, feuds and egos but it's also one of hard work, solidarity, commitment and measurable achievement. Let's keep those goals in mind. To be sure, posting views on an internet forum or putting them in a book is not enough. But that doesn't make it a bad thing to do. Life is full of things that aren't enough by themselves, but there's lots more life to work in towards the bigger picture. This anthology is meant as a spur both to politicised writing and to activism. We certainly don't expect it to convert any fascists our only concern on that score was that it shouldn't be a morally disengaged catalogue of atrocities that might give some racist a hard-on. We're wholly confident that it won't be that. Rhys, I appreciate your postings here on anti-fascist and anti-authoritarian literature. This is what we should be talking about. And as you say, there are many people out there for whom writing is anything but 'armchair activism'. The end never justifies the means that's true of political campaigning, and it's true of all social and cultural activity. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
Rhys yes, you don't have to be a Marxist to oppose fascism. You just have to be a Marxist to understand where it comes from, why it exists and how to counter it effectively. | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 212.219.233.223 |
Well Joel, I could remind you that the Confederaciσn Nacional del Trabajo and the other Spanish anarchists were doing a fine job in 'countering' Franco (not really a Fascist, but close enough) until the communists stabbed them in the back... | ||
| Skunsworth (Skunsworth) Username: Skunsworth Registered: 05-2009 Posted From: 92.16.93.143 |
Nope, I'm sure I remember something about the working conditions of porn star employees! (And, incidentally, if you took what I said as in any way critical, please don't - I whole heartedly agree with your stance, if not necessarily the political perspective you approach it from! ). | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 88.104.140.73 |
Now. This is an interesting discussion. | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 88.104.140.73 |
My post was meant to go just after Rhys...but. | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 212.219.233.223 |
Every commune I have ever lived on (and I lived on several when I was younger), whatever its particular "political" slant (syndicalist, collectivist, geoist, etc, etc) would always eventually be infiltrated by "Marxists" who wanted to take over, abolish the joint decision making process and effectively turn the commune into an elite-run business project. The Marxists were always the worst. Sorry, Joel, but that's true. Even the right-wing Objectivists were more easy going than the Marxists... | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 212.219.233.223 |
Not that this has anything to do with literature, of course... So: I'm a huge fan of Vladimir Nabokov's Bend Sinister, which is about the fatal attraction of apathy during a period of budding totalitarianism. Only the second Nabokov novel I ever read but it has stuck in my mind more than most of the others. | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 88.104.140.73 |
Apathy and silence bother me...silence is a great friend to oppression. | ||
| Skunsworth (Skunsworth) Username: Skunsworth Registered: 05-2009 Posted From: 92.16.93.143 |
Spiro Agnew's silent majority! Bastards that they are! S | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
Rhys, by 'Marxist' I don't mean 'Stalinist'. Rule by a bureaucratic elite has nothing to do with socialism. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
Simon, I refer you to my recent pamphlet 'Stand up and be counted: union rights for fluffers' (Jeff Stryker On Strike Press, 2009). | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 212.219.233.223 |
In that case Marx himself was a Stalinist, if we bear in mind the way he acted during the days of the Paris Commune and the shameful way he treated Kropotkin and Bakunin. Marx was a proponent of the "dictatorship of the proletariat". To quote from Bakunin: "The Marxists maintain that only a dictatorship their dictatorship, of course can create the will of the people, while our answer to this is: No dictatorship can have any other aim but that of self-perpetuation, and it can beget only slavery in the people tolerating it; freedom can be created only by freedom, that is, by a universal rebellion on the part of the people and free organization of the toiling masses from the bottom up. | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 61.216.47.192 |
I think this is a commendable idea, but for me the title Never Again doesn't feel like an ideal fit for the theme of the book. If it was about the Holocaust or the nuclear bombing in World War II it would seem more appropriate, but racism and fascism aren't a phenomenon that happened at a fixed period in the past and then stopped, always to be regretted (as the title implies). They are very much alive, with examples to be found in many countries today, on practically every continent. Just a minor quibble, really. Good luck with the book, guys. | ||
| Stu (Stu) Username: Stu Registered: 04-2008 Posted From: 82.11.91.133 |
There's probably some spoilers in the following if anyone's planning to read the stories mentioned: I've always been kind of interested in the stories where the people doing the "right" thing are just as misguided as the oppressors that they're trying to stop. An obvious example is the Captain America story I cited above although in that instance the following issue modified things a little, making it clear that the Jewish protester had acted out of a momentary loss of control whereas the Neo-Nazi was an evil dickhead. As a teenager I used to read the X-Men comics during the period where Magneto (the Malcolm X to Professor X's Martin Luther King) had renounced his attempts to overthrow humanity and had become a teacher at Professor X's school in order to help mutantkind. That development of the character was fascinating to me -- the abandoning of hatred and violence to be replaced by tolerance and a desire to educate. It was also during this period that a trio of WWII veterans with mutant powers were introduced, hunting down criminals who had escaped prosecution but giving them a head-start during the manhunts in order to make the executions "honourable". V For Vendetta is a strong cry for tolerance and understanding and the end of fascism. But V, the "hero" of the piece, is himself a murderer and a terrorist. It's Evey, the damsel in distress who gradually grows in strength over the course of the story, who is the moral centre of the tale. Similarly, King Mob from The Invisibles might look cool as he unleashes his John Woo gunplay and his chaos magic on extra-dimensional fascists but as his ex-girlfriend points out: "You're running around shooting people like they're nothing. You're fucked up, Gideon. You're not cool, you're not a hero; you're just a murderer." This is emphasised in the one-off issue 'Best Man Fall' which details the life story of a soldier who King Mob killed in a previous issue. Now, instead of cheering at the manner in which King Mob offed a nameless henchman, the reader is forced to confront the fact that the soldier was a human being with hopes and dreams and flaws and weaknesses. Then there's Garth Ennis's take on The Punisher where a vigilante ostensibly out to avenge his murdered family is actually a war junkie who misses being able to slaughter enemy troops and secretly relishes fighting an endless war on crime. A recurring nightmare haunts him; in it he finally manages to wipe out all crime and so turns his guns on innocent bystanders just so that he can continue fighting a war. All this tied into commentary on the industrial-military complex's need for oil and an illegal drug trade and wars in which to sell their weapons. | ||
| Stevie Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
'Tolerance' might have been a more fitting title but then D.W. Griffith got there first...  The urge to fascism, racism, irrational hatred of "the other", bullying, elitism & snobbery are all irradicable elements of the human condition. The best we can hope for is to control them and channel such negative energy into other, less harmful pursuits (sport, for example). On a primal level I would point to William Golding's first two novels as demonstrating, in graphic detail, how an unchecked alpha male drive (Hitler, Stalin, etc.) and NOT political ideology (merely the outward expression of these drives) is always responsible for unleashing the destructive force of humanity. It will continue to happen | ||
| Stevie Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
And Golding had the honesty to admit that had he grown up in Nazi Germany he would undoubtedly have been a Nazi... | ||
| Stu (Stu) Username: Stu Registered: 04-2008 Posted From: 82.11.91.133 |
That's what worries me about if I'd been raised in Nazi Germany. It's like that Kim Newman story, Ubermensch, where Superman arrives on Earth in Nazi Germany instead of Smallville. Not that I'm comparing myself to Superman of course. But every now and again at work they wheel out that video of the experiment the schoolteacher did with splitting the kids into two groups, the blue eyes and the brown eyes, telling them that blue eyes are superior. And the kids fall for it. They start bullying the brown eyes and get into fights with them, even when they had previously been friends. Then the next day she reverses it and says the brown eyes are actually superior. And the bullying starts again, this time from the other group. Out of all the kids only one of them stands aside and says he thinks it is wrong. Scary. Yet there's always at least one person who will sit there after watching the video and state with utmost certainty that they would never act that way. Even when told that a more subtle version of the experiment has been preformed on adults with similar results they're still convinced that they would never do anything like that. I hope they're right. And I hope that I'd be standing alongside them. But the odds are against us. | ||
| Stevie Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
We are programmed to want to belong to the group, to fit in. It's one of the basic survival instincts. Couple that with certain individuals natural urge to come first, to lead, to ruthlessly impose their will on those around them and the seeds of fascism are always there within the human race. Equally there are certain rare individuals who have a natural urge to help others, to sacrifice their own welfare for the betterment of the group but they rarely (except in perfect historical and political conditions) become leaders, except of radical groups of like-minded individuals and even then by consensus. We need to foster a zero tolerance attitude to the selfish, power-hungry, ruthlessly ambitious drive in human nature (whether it be in politics, business or the arts) before we have any chance of seeing an end to racism or fascism. Personally, I'd start by banning shows like 'Young Apprentice' for the perfidious message they put across. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 06-2008 Posted From: 81.153.251.53 |
Serendipitously, I wrote some days ago the following words (inter alia) about Joel's 'Last Witness' story in WHERE THE HEART IS anthology: ... crystallising its own bitter succinctness by this writer's unique alchemy of negative pain / grotesqueness and positive commitment. Through Lane, we ever learn to transcend nightmares of existence by sharing his dark visions and breathing in his oxymorons. The best medicine seems toxic. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
Huw, you certainly have a point, but the slogan 'Never Again' is already burdened with many ironies. The problem is in the world, not the words. I cherish the comment of a friend: "Is it a book of drinking stories?" | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.22.234.38 |
And Golding had the honesty to admit that had he grown up in Nazi Germany he would undoubtedly have been a Nazi... I would go so far as to say that I've long suspected that we all have 'it' to some degree. The 'common' people who followed Hitler weren't evil. They were tired of seeing corpses piling up in the streets, tiring of paying billions of Marks for a loaf of bread. Tired of being treated like vermin because of the dictates of the Versaillers Treaty. As for Marxism, it is good theory, but for some reason it doesn't appear to work, does it? | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.22.234.38 |
. . . tirED of paying . . . And don't worry, I am not a fascist or neonazi or whatever. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
Hubert the Great Depression proved that capitalism doesn't work, and the current economic meltdown has proved it once again. Because Marxism doesn't deliver the answers the ruling class want to hear, we're told it 'doesn't work'. What does work? This? I think not. | ||
| Mark_samuels (Mark_samuels) Username: Mark_samuels Registered: 04-2010 Posted From: 86.133.23.20 |
I think British Trotskyism has a few skeletons in its cupboard too: Gerry Healy for one. Mark S. | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.22.234.38 |
"How inhuman any extremity - hunger, fatigue, pain, desire - makes us poor humans" (Walter de la Mare). You're right of course, and I for one sincerely hope it won't happen again, but unfortunately I can see it happening again. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.12.109 |
the Great Depression proved that capitalism doesn't work, etc. Post hoc ergo propter hoc? I think people are eminently corruptible, if not downright contemptible, given circumstances. It's not guns that kill people, as they say.... There's no system of governance that a clever and conniving man can't turn into an effective tyranny. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.131.137 |
Hubert, your wider point is of course correct: any culture can turn vicious under sufficient pressure. And I'm rather tired of the continuing demonisation of Germans given the positive example they have set over the past sixty years. To quote the very wonderful recent film Greenberg, hurt people hurt people. | ||
| Kate (Kathleen) Username: Kathleen Registered: 09-2009 Posted From: 213.122.209.76 |
I would go so far as to say that I've long suspected that we all have 'it' to some degree. We do. As exhibited by studies like the Milgram Experiment and Stanford Prison Experiment. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 06-2008 Posted From: 81.153.251.53 |
There's no system of governance that a clever and conniving man can't turn into an effective tyranny. ===================== Indeed. And there is none so passionate as a passionate believer in something, especially religion or politics. | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.22.234.38 |
And because they are convinced that their creed or conviction furthers the cause of humanity, they feel they have the right and moral duty to convince others. They have my sympathy, for at least they are sincere. Of course, one can be thoroughly convinced of something and at the same time be thoroughly wrong. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 06-2008 Posted From: 81.153.251.53 |
Of course, one can be thoroughly convinced of something and at the same time be thoroughly wrong. ================ And one can be thoroughly convinced of something and at the same time be thoroughly right. or One can be thoroughly disparaging of something and at the same time be thoroughly wrong to be thus disparaging. My problem is - although I am a kind misanthropist - I can see the virtue of cruel philanthropy. I'm ever in two minds, other than my constant love for everyone that I cannot properly express (even to myself). | ||
| Stu (Stu) Username: Stu Registered: 04-2008 Posted From: 81.100.126.235 |
This is why I'm drawn to stories where the protagonist is in the "right" (either judging by their own morals or by those of society in general) but are also dangerous obsessives. Does the good they do outweigh the bad? Or have they tainted themselves and their ideals beyond redemption? If so is it their high-minded ideals that led them beyond redemption? | ||
| Stevie Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
I'm convinced it all goes back to biology and instinctive survival drives. There is a kind of pack mentality hotwired into the human psyche. We are driven to congregate in groups by the desire to "belong" and procreate. There is safety in numbers which makes this a useful trait in evolutionary terms. When indivi |