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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 82.31.8.83
Posted on Saturday, August 21, 2010 - 08:56 am:   

Should all major roads in London be preceded by "The"? As in, "He stepped up the Old Kent Road."
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Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.96.253.77
Posted on Saturday, August 21, 2010 - 08:59 am:   

No. That's just something they affected in dodgy old East End pub songs, mate.

Old Kent Road is how you'd put it.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 82.31.8.83
Posted on Saturday, August 21, 2010 - 09:01 am:   

But in novels I always see it written as "the". Loads of em.

Bleedin' Southerners!
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Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.96.253.77
Posted on Saturday, August 21, 2010 - 09:02 am:   

Perhaps in dialogue (some Londoners talk like that), but surely not in prose. Check out your Nick Royle if you're unsure - all his stuff is set in London, and he has the idiom well sussed, geezer.
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Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.96.253.77
Posted on Saturday, August 21, 2010 - 09:05 am:   

From Wikepedia: Although the name appears as simply "Old Kent Road" on maps, it is usually referred to by Londoners as "the Old Kent Road".

That bears up my comments regarding dialogue...and Old Kent Road is the only road this applies to.

So, if you have a Londoner talking about the road, they'd probably call it "the Old Kent Road" - otherwise, "Old Kent Road" will suffice.

(A tip: Google is your friend)
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 82.31.8.83
Posted on Saturday, August 21, 2010 - 09:06 am:   

No, in prose. Rendell writes "the Old Kent Road". So do many others.

They're just trying to monkey with the mind of a Northerner!
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Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch)
Username: Mark_lynch

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 217.171.129.68
Posted on Saturday, August 21, 2010 - 09:07 am:   

'To 221b The Baker Street, Watson,' doesn't quite have the same ring to it, does it?
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Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.96.253.77
Posted on Saturday, August 21, 2010 - 09:07 am:   

Rendell lives in London. It's a Londoners' affectation - almost a colloquialism. You're not a Londoner, so it'll ring false.

See above from Wikipedia.
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Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch)
Username: Mark_lynch

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 217.171.129.68
Posted on Saturday, August 21, 2010 - 09:09 am:   

And if it was The Old Kent Road officially, then would Londoners then say 'the The Old Kent Road'?

I'll shut up.
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Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.96.253.77
Posted on Saturday, August 21, 2010 - 09:09 am:   

Mark:

Gary: If you do go with "The Old Kent Road", for God's sake don't do what Mark's lampooned above (which was your original question: all majot London roads). Nick Royle will be after your blood.
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Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.96.253.77
Posted on Saturday, August 21, 2010 - 09:10 am:   

Mark:
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Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch)
Username: Mark_lynch

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 217.171.129.68
Posted on Saturday, August 21, 2010 - 09:10 am:   

I think I'd vote for Oona King.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 82.31.8.83
Posted on Saturday, August 21, 2010 - 09:12 am:   

Fuck it, I'll just switch the story to Manchester, where sense is common and speech is lazy.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 82.31.8.83
Posted on Saturday, August 21, 2010 - 09:14 am:   

Mark, if Holmes ever says that, he's an idiot. Does he think Watson will forget where they live? Not only does he mention the street, he also mentions the property number. And yet he goes further: he mentions the apartment number, too!

And they say THE Old Kent Road is an affectiation!
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 82.31.8.83
Posted on Saturday, August 21, 2010 - 09:17 am:   

Another question: why in the name of effing effery do some novels have the name of the novel in the header on every page? Is it to stop the reader from forgetting which book they're reading. Like, you're halfway through Under The Dome and suddenly think, "Shit, what book am I reading?" But rest easy: a quick glance at the header is enough to provide this essential information.
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Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch)
Username: Mark_lynch

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 217.171.129.74
Posted on Saturday, August 21, 2010 - 09:43 am:   

It's page design, mate. Also, when you've a short novel and want to spread it over more pages, it takes up a bit of space on the page.

(For all his brilliance, Holmes thinks homosexuals can't whistle.)
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 82.31.8.83
Posted on Saturday, August 21, 2010 - 09:51 am:   

Page design? As in "pointless page design". Ah, I see now. :-)

Personally (and heretically), I find Sherlock Holmes stories ridiculous. [ducks to avoid wrath of the field]
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 91.110.240.61
Posted on Saturday, August 21, 2010 - 10:31 am:   

It's not specifically a London thing. In Birmingham they talk about the Warwick Road, the Pershore Road etc. But never the anything Street or Crescent or Avenue. I think it comes from a time when most road names related to the destination (for the Warwick Road or the Coventry Road that still works).

Blaming Londoners for general English language usage traditions is a form of capital-centrism.
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 91.110.240.61
Posted on Saturday, August 21, 2010 - 10:33 am:   

"Personally (and heretically), I find Sherlock Holmes stories ridiculous. [ducks to avoid wrath of the field]"

In the sense implied by Ramsey's Ancient Images, presumably. If so, you deserve it.
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Mick Curtis (Mick)
Username: Mick

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.180.45.171
Posted on Saturday, August 21, 2010 - 10:35 am:   

...and of course Belfast - "the Garvahy Road", "the Crumlin Road"...
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 82.31.8.83
Posted on Saturday, August 21, 2010 - 10:39 am:   

No, I was making a general statement about the Anatidae family of birds and how it needs to avoid the countryside.

To wit: ducks to avoid wrath of the field. Drakes, too. They must stay away from those heavy-footed sheep and cows, rams and bullocks.
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Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.96.253.77
Posted on Saturday, August 21, 2010 - 11:50 am:   

Joel - I wasn't blaming Londoners for it. When I said that it's Laondon thing, I meant specifically the Old Kent Road. Because it's in London, like. No-one outside London calls it that (not without a trace of irony, anyway).

For the record, we don't use this peculiar affectation in the superior northeast: Durham Road is Durham Road; Newcastle Road is Newcastle Road, etc, etc...
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Hubert (Hubert)
Username: Hubert

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 78.22.237.21
Posted on Saturday, August 21, 2010 - 12:11 pm:   

"Windin' your way down on Baker Street
Light in your head and dead on your feet . . . "

Note: NOT on the Baker Street
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Mick Curtis (Mick)
Username: Mick

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.180.45.171
Posted on Saturday, August 21, 2010 - 01:48 pm:   

But then Baker Street doesn't lead you to a place called Baker!
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Hubert (Hubert)
Username: Hubert

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 78.22.237.21
Posted on Saturday, August 21, 2010 - 03:12 pm:   

I don't know aught about the street's history, but I wouldn't be surprised if there used to be a baker there. Not the same, I know.
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 82.17.252.126
Posted on Saturday, August 21, 2010 - 03:18 pm:   

This thread reminds me of the best story in the 1st Pan Horror Book - Muriel Spark's 'The Portobello Road'. One of the finest ghost stories I've read.
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Hubert (Hubert)
Username: Hubert

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 78.22.237.21
Posted on Saturday, August 21, 2010 - 03:44 pm:   

Funny, that. It reminds me of Graham Greene's "A Little Place off the Edgware Road". Have you noticed? the Edgware Road.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 82.31.8.83
Posted on Saturday, August 21, 2010 - 04:52 pm:   

See? Told yez.

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