Combat Horror Log Out | Topics | Search
Moderators | Edit Profile

RAMSEY CAMPBELL » Discussion » Combat Horror « Previous Next »

Author Message
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Giancarlo (Giancarlo)
Username: Giancarlo

Registered: 11-2008
Posted From: 85.116.228.5
Posted on Monday, November 29, 2010 - 09:30 am:   

I was wondering about Horror movies set in combat environment, "The Bunker", "Below", "Dog Soldiers", "Southern Comfort"...Now, what about movies capable of depicting the horror of war as such, not as genre productions? Not "fantasy" horror, I mean. In the general, they are adventure-action movies set in war sorroundings, there are horrifying combat scenes but how deep do they go into the true horror of war, as far as cinematically possible. Imho, "All Quiet on the Western Front" is the real thing, and a bunch including "The Burmese Harp", the Italian "Men Against" and some hard-hitting sequence in "The Great War" (this one Italian too). There are probably others I can't just now remember. There are a lot of war pictures, of course, set in all epochs and historical conflicts, but combat horror is rarely unesthetically portrayed, as if they are romancing with war. I confess to a soft spot for the English "Zulu" which sports very impressive battle scenes and a convincing cast of characters, there is "real" war-horror there if we can overlook the epical background. Now, combat can be epical but man-to-man gritty fight rarely is (unless it's of the Hector-vs-Achilles kind).
So, such decent (or un-decent) movies such as "Private Ryan", "Windtalkers", "We were Soldiers", "The Longest Day" and so on are definitely out of the mark though action scenes can be very affecting. Bondarciuk's "Waterloo", for instance, can be overwhelming but too epic in size. About the issue, I'd save as "real war movies", "Apocalypse Now", "The Thin Red Line" and, albeit partially, "Platoon".
Maybe the best war horror movies are those depicting the aftermath, the suffering of veterans, "The Best Years of Our Lives", "The Men", maybe even "Taxi Driver". I have mixed feelings about "Born on the 4th of July" and "The Deer Hunter".
Well, those are just my reflections after watching "Inglorious Basterds"!
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Giancarlo (Giancarlo)
Username: Giancarlo

Registered: 11-2008
Posted From: 85.116.228.5
Posted on Monday, November 29, 2010 - 09:47 am:   

P.S. How could I forget Kubrick's "Paths of Glory"? Great one!
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.140.190.159
Posted on Monday, November 29, 2010 - 09:48 am:   

Yes, war holds horror for sure, and not just physical. All Quiet on the Western Front as a kid for me felt as strange and unreal as the monster movies I was watching.
But yes, the margins; The Beguiled sticks in my mind as a great illustration of such a place.
These films can address various places, the moral and physical and political, but also the spiritual. I need to come back to this.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Simon Bestwick (Simon_b)
Username: Simon_b

Registered: 10-2008
Posted From: 86.24.209.217
Posted on Monday, November 29, 2010 - 09:56 am:   

Peckinpah's Cross Of Iron is a truly great war film. Another, and one that edges into pure horror territory, would be Joseph Vilsmaier's Stalingrad.

Good call with All Quiet On The Western Front, as well.}
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 195.166.117.210
Posted on Monday, November 29, 2010 - 10:23 am:   

Come and See is one of the most devastating horror films I've ever seen. Also, Kanal. Both are masterpieces of war-themed cinema that I can't help viewing as horror films.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 195.166.117.210
Posted on Monday, November 29, 2010 - 10:24 am:   

Combat Shock is a harrowing depiction of the psychological aftermath of war. It covers similar themes to Taxi Driver but is more overtly horrific. It's a truly scarifying film.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Simon Bestwick (Simon_b)
Username: Simon_b

Registered: 10-2008
Posted From: 86.24.209.217
Posted on Monday, November 29, 2010 - 10:30 am:   

Come and See- fuck, yes. Can't believe I forgot that one. Still haven't seen Kanal or Combat Shock. (Checks LiveFilm subscription...)
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Giancarlo (Giancarlo)
Username: Giancarlo

Registered: 11-2008
Posted From: 85.116.228.5
Posted on Monday, November 29, 2010 - 10:30 am:   

The sniper's sequence in Kubrick's "Full Metal Jacket". Truly grim! Greatly disturbing!
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Simon Bestwick (Simon_b)
Username: Simon_b

Registered: 10-2008
Posted From: 86.24.209.217
Posted on Monday, November 29, 2010 - 10:31 am:   

LoveFilm! My kingdom for an edit button...
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Hubert (Hubert)
Username: Hubert

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 78.22.237.21
Posted on Monday, November 29, 2010 - 11:42 am:   

I love the sequence in Apocalypse Now when the little patrol boat is slowly but surely entering a very different realm : those fires and wooden structures on the banks indicate a serious lapse into abnormality, and Kurtz's compound itself, festooned with severed heads and corpses is a vision from hell. It could have turned ridiculous, but it doesn't. Magnificent film-making.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey)
Username: Ramsey

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 195.93.21.68
Posted on Monday, November 29, 2010 - 11:53 am:   

A couple more: Les Croix de Bois (Raymond Bernard) and Fires on the Plain (Kon Ichikawa).
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 147.252.230.148
Posted on Monday, November 29, 2010 - 01:50 pm:   

THE LONGEST DAY evokes a Lovecraftian feeling of doom on the Normandy coast. The English channel - a calm, thin sliver of water - is the only thing holding back the largest vengeful force ever mustered in history. German soldiers play cards in a bunker while, unnoticed, the horizon becomes silently poxed with black ships. Brr!

ZULU could be considered akin to a zombie siege movie.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 147.252.230.148
Posted on Monday, November 29, 2010 - 01:51 pm:   

FIRST BLOOD would be a horror film if it were told from the point of view of the law enforcement officers.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Stu (Stu)
Username: Stu

Registered: 04-2008
Posted From: 213.81.118.56
Posted on Monday, November 29, 2010 - 04:08 pm:   

Not read the novel of FIRST BLOOD but I'm told the POV is split between Rambo and the lead cop.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.143.135.212
Posted on Tuesday, November 30, 2010 - 10:30 am:   

Ha - I said the other week that the Jason movies are First Blood told from 'our' side of things.
No - hang on - I said a Jason movie told from his side would feel like First Blood.
Oh, I give up.
I'm in the middle of writing this book told from two different angles and the takes are so different it feels like I should split them into two books. I just don't know how to put them together structurally, as one side is a mystery the other would give it all away (in a good way).
Sorry - that's an interruption.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Tuesday, November 30, 2010 - 12:53 pm:   

War films, hmm... I'm mostly drawn to war movies that show the hallucinatory horror and pointlessness of war, as well as the effect it has on real human beings.

I haven't seen 'Come And See', and long to, but here's my Top 10 serious films about war that I have seen, off the top of my head:

1. 'Rome, Open City' (1945) by Roberto Rossellini
2. 'Paisan' (1946) by Roberto Rossellini
3. 'Germany, Year Zero' (1947) by Roberto Rossellini
4. 'The Deer Hunter' (1978) by Michael Cimino
5. 'Apocalypse Now' (1979) by Francis Ford Coppola
6. 'Paths Of Glory' (1957) by Stanley Kubrick
7. 'Cross Of Iron' (1976) by Sam Peckinpah
8. 'The Thin Red Line' (1998) by Terrence Malick
9. 'Das Boot' (1981) by Wolfgang Petersen
10. 'The Best Years Of Our Lives' (1946) by William Wyler

Near misses: 'A Man Escaped', 'Au Revoir Les Enfants', 'Full Metal Jacket', 'All Quiet On The Western Front', 'Pork Chop Hill', 'Salvador' [far superior to the overrated 'Platoon' imo], 'The Red Badge Of Courage', 'Patton', 'Attack!', 'The Train', 'The Big Red One', 'Merry Christmas, Mr Lawrence', 'Casualties Of War', 'Saving Private Ryan', 'Schindler's List' [both marred by Spielberg's trademark sentimentality, but still powerful films], 'Gallipoli', etc...

...and my Top 10 "war as entertainment" films:

1. 'Gone With The Wind' (1939) by Victor Fleming
2. 'The Great Escape' (1963) by John Sturges
3. 'Zulu' (1964) by Cy Endfield
4. 'The Life And Death Of Colonel Blimp' (1943) by Michael Powell & Emeric Pressburger
5. 'The Bridge On The River Kwai' (1957) by David Lean
6. 'Stalag 17' (1953) by Billy Wilder
7. 'Sahara' (1943) by Zoltan Korda
8. 'Closely Observed Trains' (1966) by Jirí Menzel
9. 'Go Tell The Spartans' (1978) by Ted Post
10. 'A Bridge Too Far' (1977) by Richard Attenborough

Near misses: 'Inglourious Basterds', 'The 49th Parallel', 'Ice Cold In Alex', 'Hell In The Pacific', 'Beach Red', 'Merrill's Marauders', 'The Dirty Dozen', 'The Bridge At Remagen', 'The Battle Of The Bulge', 'From Here To Eternity', 'Battleground', 'Shenandoah', 'They Were Expendable', 'The Guns Of Navarone', 'Where Eagles Dare', 'In Which We Serve', 'Von Ryan's Express', 'Kelly's Heroes', 'The Wooden Horse', 'The Alamo', 'The Green Berets' [both jingoistic as feck but brilliantly entertaining cinema spectacles], 'We Were Soldiers', etc, etc, etc...
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Simon Bestwick (Simon_b)
Username: Simon_b

Registered: 10-2008
Posted From: 86.24.209.217
Posted on Tuesday, November 30, 2010 - 01:22 pm:   

Stevie- totally agree with you re Salvador versus the overblown and overrated Platoon. First Oliver Stone film I saw and the first performance by James Woods- it made me a fan of both for quite a while.

And The Bridge At Remagen is a cracker too- some great scenes in that, and superb performances, in particular, from Geoerge Segal, Ben Gazzara and Robert Vaughn.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Simon Bestwick (Simon_b)
Username: Simon_b

Registered: 10-2008
Posted From: 86.24.209.217
Posted on Tuesday, November 30, 2010 - 01:23 pm:   

Or even George Segal. Gah.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tom_alaerts (Tom_alaerts)
Username: Tom_alaerts

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 194.78.35.175
Posted on Tuesday, November 30, 2010 - 01:26 pm:   

Several good mentions, like Paths of Glory.

I would add three peculiar ones:

- "Bullet in the Head" by John Woo - a less known John Woo movie that's really intense in moments
- "Casualties of War" by Brian De Palma
- "Blackhawk Down" by Ridley Scott
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Tuesday, November 30, 2010 - 01:26 pm:   

Jesus, how could I have forgotten Roman Polanski's 'The Pianist' in the serious war near misses!! The film that, along with 'The Ghost', proves that he's still got it.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Simon Bestwick (Simon_b)
Username: Simon_b

Registered: 10-2008
Posted From: 86.24.209.217
Posted on Tuesday, November 30, 2010 - 01:30 pm:   

Tom- yes, Black Hawk Down is an interesting one. Politically it's appalling, but never less than cinematically compelling- and, I'm told by an ex-military friend, a very accurate depiction of how professional soldiers thick and act.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 195.166.117.210
Posted on Tuesday, November 30, 2010 - 02:01 pm:   

Stevie - define your "near miss". I don't understand. "The Piano" is a brilliant film; it succeeds on every level. Ditto "Salvador".
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey)
Username: Ramsey

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 195.93.21.68
Posted on Tuesday, November 30, 2010 - 02:51 pm:   

For me Merrill's Marauders is possibly the most physically exhausting of all war films. Hell Is For Heroes is a neglected major achievement. And to go back to Giancarlo's original posting - as an aftermath film, I'm abashed not to have cited Grave of the Fireflies...
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Tuesday, November 30, 2010 - 03:28 pm:   

Sorry, Zed, I didn't mean "near miss" in a derogatory sense but as in not making my, entirely personal, Top 10. I mean how could anyone call 'A Man Escaped' anything less than perfect, nevermind 'The Pianist'!!

Haven't seen 'Hell Is For Heroes', Ramsey, and the teaming of Steve McQueen & Don Siegel makes me wonder why not!
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Tuesday, November 30, 2010 - 03:47 pm:   

'The Bridge At Remagen' is a firm favourite of mine too, Simon. Haven't seen 'Black Hawk Down'.

As an aside, my nomination for the worst war film of all time is... the disgracefully, abjectly awful load of steaming old kack that is 'Pearl Harbour'. Yecch!!
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Mbfg (Mbfg)
Username: Mbfg

Registered: 09-2010
Posted From: 212.219.63.204
Posted on Tuesday, November 30, 2010 - 03:52 pm:   

The first film that actualy brought home to me that war is bloody, messy and physically painful was seeing "A Bridge Too Far" at the pictures when it first came out, paticularly the scenes from the British point of view.

The opening scenes of "Saving Private Ryan" is of course brutally realistic.

However, one scene from "Every Human Heart" on Sunday night really speared the sheer folly, waste and obscnity of war into my heart. It was when the protagonist vists the wreckage left by the V2 that killed his wife and child.

War is an obsecenity, it is vile and foul and those respobnsible for initiating war are common murderign criminals. To send young men and women to fight, to kill and die is awful in the true sense of the word, to rain fire and death on innocent civilians is vile beyond words.

And what have we done? Started this century with a war exactly as we did the last oentury and one before that.

Not wanting a cheap plug but my rage at sensless war is the subject of my imminent novel, "Bloody War".

Regards
Terry
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 109.79.178.86
Posted on Tuesday, November 30, 2010 - 07:07 pm:   

"Black Hawk Down is an interesting one. Politically it's appalling..."

Why's that?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.96.253.77
Posted on Tuesday, November 30, 2010 - 08:24 pm:   

Lefty Besty probably doesn't like the US soldiers being portrayed as heroic.

Sorry, Simon - you know I'm just joshing you.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Simon Bestwick (Simon_b)
Username: Simon_b

Registered: 10-2008
Posted From: 86.24.209.217
Posted on Tuesday, November 30, 2010 - 10:27 pm:   

I know, mate...

Proto- there's a good article by George Monbiot here:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2002/jan/29/2002inreview.features

I tend to think of Black Hawk Down as a sort of hi-tech, souped-up version of Zulu... }
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 78.152.227.92
Posted on Wednesday, December 01, 2010 - 12:04 am:   

Not a bad article. I don't know enough about the subject to know if it's unbiased, but for now the finger-wagging side wins.

The criticism often leveled at the film that does bug me is that it's racist because one side was black and the other was white. Factually, one side WAS entirely black and the other WAS entirely white.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Simon Bestwick (Simon_b)
Username: Simon_b

Registered: 10-2008
Posted From: 86.24.209.217
Posted on Wednesday, December 01, 2010 - 12:13 am:   

True, Proto- although there's at least one black soldier in Josh Hartnett's 'chalk' in Black Hawk Down.

Monbiot makes the telling point that the deaths of the American soldiers are highly individualised and dramatised, whilst the Somalis are an undifferentiated mass. But this arguably reflects reality to an extent- the Americans were vastly outnumbered and outgunned (although admittedly they could whistle up the funkiest and shiniest toys)... and of course the story would have been a lot less interesting if the Somalis had been trashed by a vastly superior US force... But then, each dead Somali had a story of their own.

I have to admit I've acquired a higher degree of regard for soldiers in the last couple of years. An ex-squaddie I worked with gave me a lot of helpful information on how soldiers act and above all think when I was writing Tide Of Souls. While it's a very different point of view to my own, I've come to respect it. I just wish the political masters who give the orders weren't such amoral, pitiless arseholes.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.96.253.77
Posted on Wednesday, December 01, 2010 - 01:04 am:   

Simon - I've known a lot of guys who went into the army, and to be honest not one of them ever knew or understood anything about the politics behind them being thrown into war zones. They just did their job. Most of them were absolute nutcases, too - but in a good way; a way that made them perfect for their career. I've always had absolute regard for soldiers.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 99.126.164.88
Posted on Wednesday, December 01, 2010 - 01:55 am:   

We are so totally familiar with the horrors of war, that what's become, I think, almost totally forgotten, is the opposite state - which I would argue seems to be more the norm throughout history, than the horrors are: that is the lust and desire for war. The craving to grab your weapon and go out there and kill and pillage and burn and take and grab and destroy - all for quite patriotic, holy, reasonable, justified, good and moral reasons, of course.... War has existed so long and been so widespread and constant throughout history for one reason: it's been mostly embraced by the masses, even if it staggers and stuns so many of them in the end. The true horror of war, might be how gleefully so many civilizations have embraced it....

Come And See is probably one of the most horrific war films I've ever seen, because it does show both these states, through a demonic filter: the sheer horror, of course, but also the mad frothing Hellish chaotic joy of it all... as the film progresses, it becomes more and more dreamlike, and time loses hold, and the film loses other forms of real-world logic... it is very much like a descent into Hell, where (as we all know) the Devils and demons are not morose; but rather, dance with rapturous and wicked glee....
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.143.135.212
Posted on Wednesday, December 01, 2010 - 09:31 am:   

Thing is, not everyone goes to war because they enjoy it, but because they have to.
I thought Black Hawk Down was really dull and monotonous.

Regarding racism, I just found out Africans sold fellow blacks to the whites in exchange for guns! How sucky is that! Is ANYONE good?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Giancarlo (Giancarlo)
Username: Giancarlo

Registered: 11-2008
Posted From: 85.116.228.5
Posted on Wednesday, December 01, 2010 - 09:50 am:   

Kubrick's "Spartacus" was the real thing in spite of Scott's "The Gladiator" (though the latter's not a bad one.) The duel to death in Battiatus-Ustinov's arena is a masterpiece in understatement as only the clashing sounds of weapons, the thrashing of sand, the wheeze of the fight and the men's clashes upon the enclosure are conveyed as the only soundtrack to the drama of Death. What can be seen of it is through the slats in the wooden pen where Spartacus and Drapa sit face to face waiting for their round of combat.
The final battle scene, Crassus vs Spartacus, has an tremendous incipit as the chessboard formations ("quicunx") of Roman legions move to position in the plain in amazing discipline, though the battle itself is a quick highly gripping thing.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 195.166.117.210
Posted on Wednesday, December 01, 2010 - 09:52 am:   

Craig - that's a very good point. And I agree totally with your comments regarding Come and See.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Simon Bestwick (Simon_b)
Username: Simon_b

Registered: 10-2008
Posted From: 86.24.209.217
Posted on Wednesday, December 01, 2010 - 11:49 am:   

Gary- good point about soldiering. That's the great strength and weakness of the military, of course- they follow orders.

That said, my 'military adviser' told me that in the British army, certainly, soldiers do have the right- even the duty- to refuse an order they regard as illegal or immoral. Armies such as Germany or Japan in WW2, of course, did not have that privilege.

Trouble is, it can't be easy to refuse an order- there has to a be a good deal of pressure to conform. And thinking about- say- the Iraq war, consider how much venom was hurled, especially in the US, at anyone who even questioned the legitimacy of the war. I can only think of one British serviceman who refused to serve in Iraq (Flight Lieut. Kendall-Smith) and he was imprisoned for doing so. The Sun, naturally, branded him a 'coward', via the medium of Andy McNab. Not that I have much respect for a gung-ho thug who boasts about how many 'ragheads' he's killed.

Craig- good point there as well. Although a lot of demonisation and drum-beating has to take place for a war to be started. Every aggressor has always claimed to be waging war in their own defence. And there's a great deal of appealing to the baser impulses in people... War is made to sound like something of great appeal. And I suppose that to the 'Id' it is appealing- getting to smash and destroy and gratify all sorts of other urges that in any other context would be utterly condemned. And it is all great fun from that point of view till you realise the enemy's probably playing just the same game, and till you realise you and your friends can also be killed or horribly maimed...

As you say, Craig, Come And See is very good at catching that. The boy joins the partisans believing it will be a great 'Boy's Own' (or whatever the Soviet equivalent would have been) adventure. By the end, though, he's still committed to the fight but understands the reality of what he's engaged in.

Cross Of Iron is interesting in this way too- the Maximilian Schell character lays particular stress on the army's appeal as 'a world without women... all this childbirth and chocolate'. (Although most armies are different now.) In Freudian terms, it's a desire to escape the more complex and demanding obligations of 'real life' and into a mode where the only problems tend to be ones you can shoot, stab or blow up. A form of death wish. Senta Berger's character has a similar line to Coburn's: 'Do you love war so much? Or are you afraid of what you'll be without it?'

On a side-note, it also has one of my favourite movie lines ever:
"Do you believe in God, Sergeant?"
"I believe... that God is a sadist. But probably doesn't even know it."
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.96.253.77
Posted on Wednesday, December 01, 2010 - 12:23 pm:   

Simon, the whole point of the army is to strip away individuality and create a platoon. One of my mates dads was a drill sargeant in Three Para: he called it "stripping them down to build them back up".

Who do you want fighting for you in a war, a bunch of individuals agonising over every order or a hardened team of nutters designed to obey those orders without thought? I know my answer.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.96.253.77
Posted on Wednesday, December 01, 2010 - 12:24 pm:   

Dead easy for us to debate war from our comfy office chairs, isn't it?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Simon Bestwick (Simon_b)
Username: Simon_b

Registered: 10-2008
Posted From: 86.24.209.217
Posted on Wednesday, December 01, 2010 - 12:35 pm:   

True, Zed. But by the same token, who else is going to debate and agonise over the topic? The soldiers won't for the reasons you point out. The politicians won't because most of them have the morals of a weasel down a rabbit burrow. That leaves us... doing anything about it is another matter, of course.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.96.253.77
Posted on Wednesday, December 01, 2010 - 12:40 pm:   

Go and start a revolution from your bed.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Simon Bestwick (Simon_b)
Username: Simon_b

Registered: 10-2008
Posted From: 86.24.209.217
Posted on Wednesday, December 01, 2010 - 12:50 pm:   

It's too bloody cold
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 109.79.139.129
Posted on Wednesday, December 01, 2010 - 03:00 pm:   

"Regarding racism, I just found out Africans sold fellow blacks to the whites in exchange for guns! How sucky is that! Is ANYONE good?"

Oh sure. Slavery was alive and well long before Europeans got there. The slave-trading infrastructure was already there, Europeans made it an export industry.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Wednesday, December 01, 2010 - 04:04 pm:   

Differentiating between pacifism and militarism as "good" and "bad" is overly simplistic. Human nature dictates that each nation state, or community grouping of any kind, cannot rely on the good will of its neighbours to survive but must have a credible military defence force in place in order to survive and maintain its security. That is one of the saddest facts of life about our pitiful little species and the reason why hard-headed realists like Robert Heinlein, when they state this fact bluntly, are unfairly (imo) pilloried by the idealistic bleeding heart liberal fraternity - with whom I empathise but cannot, in all pragmatism, agree. There is a place for military might - that fact is incontrovertible - and only by pulling together into an ever tighter and equally integrated global Federation (like the one in 'Stranger In A Strange Land') can we ever hope to bring an end to War.

Of course, as Heinlein also points out, the successful formation of one global super-community will bring problems of its own and the emphasis will switch to a War between the rights of the individual and the dictates of the state.

'Starship Troopers' showed how human beings could possibly be governed by a military elite but the point most people miss is that that state could only ever function in conditions of perpetual interplanetary War with alien invaders from across the galaxy. Asimov pointed this out too in the 'Foundation Saga' and took the obvious solution to its ultimate conclusion. It's always going to be a dog-eat-dog existence when life depends on the consumption of other life to survive and procreate.

Only a form of hard-headed, pragmatic socialism ruled over by something akin to Plato's "philosopher kings", who eschew the desire for power and reign reluctantly, can ever succeed - and even then, only until the next competitor appears over the horizon.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 99.126.164.88
Posted on Wednesday, December 01, 2010 - 10:03 pm:   

Simon, when you say

Although a lot of demonisation and drum-beating has to take place for a war to be started. Every aggressor has always claimed to be waging war in their own defence. And there's a great deal of appealing to the baser impulses in people...

I agree for the most part. But I just think that we are, again, looking through today's prism. I think in times past, it wasn't quite even as difficult or conniving or nefarious as you portray it, to get the masses to go to war. It was, sure, but it was probably a lot much less difficult.

Because, we are forgetting yet another aspect of war: there's the horrors vs. the mad glee, but there's also the destruction vs. the spoils. War brought you lots of goodies - real, tangible, succulent, worthwhile goodies, that made war, in the end, a pretty damn good deal. Again, a concept that has gone out of vogue, and not just by accident. The world pounced on Sadaam invading Kuwait so dramatically, because it was "old world" warmongering there - and this "new world order" we are in (new since WWII, I'd contend) was determined not to see a return to, well... any given century in history up till then.

Here in America, Korea and Vietnam were like kabuki-shows about the "horrors of war" - one could say they were staged morality plays, to teach the populace never again to look at war as anything but Hell, Hell, Hell (again, ironically, Hells that were mild compared to oh so many previous Hells [e.g., the grand Hell known as WWII, that put world powers into this new approach we have here now, following it]). Iraq (II) and Afghanistan are very different kinds of wars from wars preceding... no spoils, no mad glee, no really altered world situations, I'd argue... more like going to the gym, these wars, keeping in shape, than wars of times past....

This whole new world of "war's horrors" is indeed new, an experiment less than 60 years old. A blink of the eye in history. If tomorrow we return to old world warmongering ways, this time when war was "horror" and nothing but, will seem like nothing other than a break for a cup of tea on a battlefield....
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.143.135.212
Posted on Thursday, December 02, 2010 - 09:35 am:   

I heard a play yesterday set in Elizabethan times where this Catholic chap Babbington got horribly tortured and killed (in front of his mum who was made to watch) for trying to free Mary Queen of Scots. At one point the executioner cut off his genitals (as well as disembowelling him alive, of course), showed them to him then threw them on the brazier. I think times have changed a bit.
Hang on - 'Elizabeth found the execution so horrific the next traitors were hanged before being disembowelled'
- oh, they changed pretty fast!
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Weber (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 194.176.105.55
Posted on Thursday, December 02, 2010 - 02:29 pm:   

@Craig - you can't say there's no spoils of war for the victors. the rebuilding contracts that America has in Iraq etc are keeping them rolling in money. That plus control of the oil...

I know I'm oversimplifying but I hope my point is made
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 99.126.164.88
Posted on Thursday, December 02, 2010 - 04:28 pm:   

Actually, Weber, you're making my point even more... er, pointy: the profit motive, the benefits accrued, are there too, as well as the constant real-time battlefield-ready military exercises.

We Americans got our America going to war against you. Before and during going to war against the native Americans. War gets you lots of good things....

Tony: well, at least Lizzy hanged them first!

Add Your Message Here
Post:
Bold text Italics Underline Create a hyperlink Insert a clipart image

Username: Posting Information:
This is a private posting area. Only registered users and moderators may post messages here.
Password:
Options: Enable HTML code in message
Automatically activate URLs in message
Action:

Topics | Last Day | Last Week | Tree View | Search | Help/Instructions | Program Credits Administration