| Author | Message | ||
     Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
I'm asking a lot of questions here today, aren't I?  Anyway, just wondering, those of you who write (which is most of you, I think), how did you learn to write well? Is it something you think you were born with - that ability to know how to write well enough to get published? Or did you learn the skill - either on your own, by looking at the way others wrote, or by doing a course/writing workshops of some kind? Wondering if there's any hope for me to learn the craft of writing well ...  | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.68 |
Partly on my own - I was already rewriting at length by the time I was thirteen - and partly with the help of a good forthright editor (August Derleth) a couple of years later. And by reading widely outside my field. I'm still learning, believe me! | ||
| Stevie Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
That's the very question I've been longing to ask myself, Caroline, and didn't even realise it. Thanks, you lovely woman. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.166.117.210 |
I'd have to write well in the first place to even attempt to answer that question. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.166.117.210 |
I do, however, believe that although you can teach people the mechanics of writing, you can't teach them how to write. And you learn your craft be writing and reading obsessively. There's no substitute for those. | ||
| Chris_morris (Chris_morris) Username: Chris_morris Registered: 04-2008 Posted From: 12.165.240.116 |
I agree with Zed. Obsession is the key to improving your writing. In my own case -- and to the extent that I could be said to write well -- improvement came quickly when I began to edit the work of others. Teaching is a great way to learn. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.166.117.210 |
I'm such a shit writer there's a typo in my writing advice. | ||
| Chris_morris (Chris_morris) Username: Chris_morris Registered: 04-2008 Posted From: 12.165.240.116 |
You write well, Zed. But you can't type for shit.  | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.166.117.210 |
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| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
Thanks, folks! I think you can make the assumption that I believe you ALL write well - that's why I thought you're just the right people to ask! I hear what you're saying. But I guess there has to be *some* latent ability to start with - something you're born with - otherwise anyone could learn to write well so long as they learnt the mechanics, read and wrote obsessively, learnt from others, etc? Any more thoughts? (BTW Stevie - you made me blush!) | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.166.117.210 |
Like I said: I do, however, believe that although you can teach people the mechanics of writing, you can't teach them how to write. | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
Oh yes, you did say that Zed - sorry, my brain's a bit mashed up at the moment.  So we're back to the nature/nurture debate ... | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
But I think, Zed, you're talking about a critical "passing of the baton," and it can apply to anything: fishing, painting, working on cars, accounting, etc. There's a critical juncture at which the student himself wants to X. And if a student has reached that point where the desire to X is in place, it's just a matter of time... and should the student cease desiring X before the time needed for said student to achieve mastery over X has run its course, then the goal is never achieved (a common occurrence)... A long way of saying: I don't think you're born with wanting to write. But once (and as long as) the desire blossoms, it's as good as if you were born with the desire to write. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.166.117.210 |
Nope, I'm talking about talent, not desire. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
But I believe talent is born (in the eventuality of time) of desire. That's my answer, at least. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.166.117.210 |
I don't believe that. A lot of people do - and that's why there are so many people around who think they have talent when they don't. | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.22.226.6 |
to the extent that I could be said to write well Indeed. How is one to judge whether one is a capable scribbler? But I would say a compulsion to read and to imitate (for better or for worse) are mandatory. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
But you left out "in the eventuality of time," Zed.... Although, now, I admit, my argument is starting to sound a little shrill and circular. It's like the old advice about how to levitate: concentrate real real hard... until you levitate. | ||
| Chris_morris (Chris_morris) Username: Chris_morris Registered: 04-2008 Posted From: 12.165.240.116 |
“Writing is easy: All you do is sit staring at a blank sheet of paper until drops of blood form on your forehead.” -- Gene Fowler | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 220.138.167.218 |
"I don't believe that. A lot of people do - and that's why there are so many people around who think they have talent when they don't." Well said. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.253.77 |
The thing is, Huw, I'm probably one of the fuckers. So in future I'll just keep my mouth shut.  | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
Dan Brown thinks he has talent... and he has the sales numbers to prove it.... Here's a tree-falls-in-the-forest question: Can an author HAVE a talent at writing, if no one's ever read him/her?... | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.180.209.113 |
I'm a solipsist and am surprised there aren't more people like me in the world. | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
"Can an author HAVE a talent at writing, if no one's ever read him/her?..." Undiscovered talent, Craig?  | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
I've heard, Caroline, I write better than Shakespeare. So I'd better make sure no one ever reads me so I stay that good! It's funny, Gary - I happen to be a solipsist too, and yet I'm not surprised at all there aren't more people in the world like you. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.180.209.113 |
That was a genuine letter written to Bertrand Russell, Craig. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
So did he write back to you?  | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.155.202.203 |
I actually like my own stuff a lot of the time but have days of horrible doubt. And I'm incredibly lazy. I remember hearing this quote from this old golfer saying he got better by playing more, which seemed to ring true for me. I think you can become talented by realising the truth in things for you. It doesn't matter if it's tue to everyone but that it is to you. That's why my stuff feels a bit off sometimes, I know, like a game played by kids with a doll's house making out they're adults. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.155.202.203 |
Caroline; write for yourself. Recently i've been trying to write for publications but it just doesn't work. I think the happiest writers, the ones most in touch with what they feel, don't give a hoot about where the stories will end up. But then...for me, wanting to impress certain people I admire is a good motive, too. | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 85.222.86.21 |
Tony - I've read some of your work, and I think you're an excellent, sophisticated writer. As Adrianna said a while back, when are going to see a collection from you. I haven't read a thing of yours that failed to appeal to me. If you did publish a collection I know I would buy it, and I'm sure many people here would do so, too. Get cracking, man. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.155.202.203 |
I'm writing now, for the Des antho of anthos. I've been enjoying it loads but to be honest am not sure it'll fit - we'll see. Also, I found out recently from Barbara she's working on an antho for Ash Tree and that if I wanted she'd look at some shorts I'd had accepted for All Hallows and put one in the book instead - if both she and Chris approves, that is! That'd be ace. Over the years I've squandered a lot of time trying to write a novel and am in the middle (near the end?) of another when really I needed to hone stuff over a few more shorts. Kind words though, Frank! Right - off to finish Des's short! | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 85.222.86.21 |
Good for you, Tony. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
I remember hearing this quote from this old golfer saying he got better by playing more, which seemed to ring true for me. That's gotta be the most obvious quote in existence, coupled with the blandest response to it! (I'm just screwing with you, Tony - you know I love you ) | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
>>Tony - I've read some of your work, and I think you're an excellent, sophisticated writer. As Adrianna said a while back, when are going to see a collection from you. I haven't read a thing of yours that failed to appeal to me. If you did publish a collection I know I would buy it, and I'm sure many people here would do so, too. Get cracking, man.<< Seconded, Frank! | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
I'd buy one too, Tony! ... but I'd hope you send me a free copy, since I am your bestest BFF in CA, after all....  | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
I write so well, by only using words or phrases that are time-tested to be gaining in popularity - http://ngrams.googlelabs.com/ (yes, a stupid joke as an excuse to post that fascinating link) (note, for example, the decline in popularity of the word "eldritch"; whereas "awesome" has a mighty increase) (who knew "douchebag" was very popular in the late 30's?) | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
Tee-hee. That's fascinating, Craig. I could play with that for ages! | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
It is fun, isn't it? Hey, "stygian depths" (appearing appx. 1880) spiked right around 1920, but has lately been having a gigantic comeback! | ||
| Nathaniel Tapley (Natt) Username: Natt Registered: 11-2009 Posted From: 92.15.178.222 |
Oooh, this is (sort of) interesting. Because I'm a child I obviously typed in rude words first, expecting their use to have increased more recently. Which they did. However, I wasn't actually expecting them to be more popular than the euphemistic phrases I checked them against at the beginning of the period. In 1800 the rude word was much more common than its euphemism, then around 1850 the euphemism becomes more than twice as popular, and remains more used until around 1950, when use of the rude term rockets again. It's a nice way of tracking our relative prudery at various points in history... (If you're unshockable and interested in the results, they're here: http://ngrams.googlelabs.com/graph?content=mons+veneris,+cunt&year_start=1800&ye ar_end=2000&corpus=0&smoothing=3) | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.253.77 |
I believe in cunt. Oops, sorry. Wrong thread. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.253.77 |
Or is it? (Insert dramatic music here.) | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
You know, I never see mons veneris anymore.... | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.212.218 |
Craig, my weekends are like that too. I approve of profanity: it keeps us in touch with our bodies and emotions, and restores a human perspective to a lot of discussion that risks getting locked into bogus abstractions. On the other hand I don't like shorthand and instrumental sexual slang that reflects the impact of the sex industry and the internet, and takes an emotionless anything-goes functionality for granted. As Dylan said, money doesn't talk, it swears. Money is obscenity. Sex is life and love and language and hope. Unless it's treated like money, as a commodity, and turned cold and vicious. As a footnote – going back to the original question of this thread: by listening to both criticism and praise, but taking both with a healthy pinch of salt. And by reading widely but critically. And by the good luck of having started out as a writer before the fucking internet ruined everything. |