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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 09-2010
Posted From: 81.131.174.204
Posted on Monday, February 21, 2011 - 09:30 am:   

I see that today that the Large Hadron Collider is re-starting its programme and we shall get to hear the answer to life during this latest period of acttivity (as well as further synchronicity with the Arab Spring?).
Apparently, not discovering the Higgs Boson particle (ie establishing it doesn't exist) is as potentially important as actually discovering it during this period!
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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 212.219.233.223
Posted on Monday, February 21, 2011 - 11:18 am:   

> Apparently, not discovering the Higgs Boson particle (ie establishing it doesn't exist) is as potentially important as actually discovering it during this period!

Yes indeed. In fact that would be even more mindblowing than finding it. The Standard Model would have to go out the window. Tee hee! My money's on them not finding it. But what do I know?

This reminds me a little of the tachyon search. Tachyons always move faster than light and therefore can't be detected. Proving that they exist entails looking for them and not finding them. If a tachyon is ever detected, it means tachyons don't exist. But failing to find one is solid empirical evidence that they are real. Yay!
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Carolinec (Carolinec)
Username: Carolinec

Registered: 06-2009
Posted From: 92.232.199.129
Posted on Monday, February 21, 2011 - 01:37 pm:   

>>Proving that they exist entails looking for them and not finding them. If a tachyon is ever detected, it means tachyons don't exist. But failing to find one is solid empirical evidence that they are real.<<

Now I'm well and truly confused. No wonder I never really understood science at school.
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 09-2010
Posted From: 81.131.174.204
Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2011 - 05:40 pm:   

Gaddafi - Christchurch - what next?
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Skip (Wolfnoma)
Username: Wolfnoma

Registered: 07-2010
Posted From: 216.54.20.98
Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2011 - 01:47 pm:   

>>Gaddafi - Christchurch - what next?<<

Dogs and Cats living in harmony?
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 109.79.79.77
Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2011 - 03:24 pm:   

The wave sweeping the middle east is astonishing, and I hope a pivotal point in history.

Does anyone feel like we're living at a pivotal point in history? The 20th/21st centuries are unquestionably special, but I wonder if just being alive at any point in history would feel like that. Probably not, without the mass media. Rome wasn't destroyed in a day, either.
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Carolinec (Carolinec)
Username: Carolinec

Registered: 06-2009
Posted From: 92.232.199.129
Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2011 - 05:17 pm:   

Proto - I think the thing about it nowadays is that we see all these things happening around us on the news. Before the advent of mass media, you wouldn't really know if you were at a pivotal point in history unless you were actually there in person when it happened.

When ever there's a huge world-changing event like this (eg. fall of the Berlin wall, 9/11, etc), I do feel like I'm living at a pivotal point in history. I, too, reckon this is one such time.
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.153.144.35
Posted on Thursday, February 24, 2011 - 11:16 am:   

I agree, Proto. It's reminding us we can do anything - and fast.
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.153.144.35
Posted on Thursday, February 24, 2011 - 11:17 am:   

Anything we want we should go for. People have grabbed the biggest elephants in the rooms and toppled them.
This all started from one young man burning himself to death in Tunisia. One life.
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Thursday, February 24, 2011 - 11:35 am:   

The wave sweeping the middle east is astonishing, and I hope a pivotal point in history.

Astonishing, uplifting and disturbing all at the same time... we are watching the equivalent of the French Revolution in the Muslim world x10, so it's just about the most pivotal moment in history since World War II.

To see the common people rising up en masse against Western-sponsored dictatorship and cruelty is an undeniably glorious thing to behold but thinking of the inevitable aftermath, plunging the entire region into levels of instability even it has never known before, is sending chills down my spine. We've had the global economic disaster (largely responsible for what we're seeing in N. Africa) and I predict World War is just around the corner - don't laugh, people were scornful at mention of War in the 1930s as well, and this instability is, if anything, even more seismic than Hitler's encroachments back then. So "pivotal" is perhaps an understatement...
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 147.252.230.148
Posted on Thursday, February 24, 2011 - 01:09 pm:   

I changed my mind. I want it to be unpivotal again.

Remember what Arthur C Clarke said about the importance of optimism though - there's always the chance of the self-fulfilling prophecy.
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Carolinec (Carolinec)
Username: Carolinec

Registered: 06-2009
Posted From: 92.232.199.129
Posted on Thursday, February 24, 2011 - 02:03 pm:   

>> .. but thinking of the inevitable aftermath, plunging the entire region into levels of instability even it has never known before, is sending chills down my spine.<<

Stevie - you've put into words what I've been worrying about at the back of my mind since this started. I know everyone is saying "isn't this great - democracy for all at last", but I have this little niggle at the back of my mind as follows. What if these countries - with various factions which don't particularly get on with each other - actually NEED to be ruled with an iron grip to prevent them falling into chaos? Remember what happened in Iraq when Saddam Hussain was booted out? We (ie. the West) didn't predict/expect that kind of outcome - and I'm not sure we're prepared for it this time either. I hope I'm wrong, I hope all these countries keep it together and can exist peacefully and happily after this - but I'm not so sure ...
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 78.152.200.90
Posted on Thursday, February 24, 2011 - 09:38 pm:   

"What if these countries - with various factions which don't particularly get on with each other - actually NEED to be ruled with an iron grip to prevent them falling into chaos?"

Why would they need that?
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.31.252.101
Posted on Thursday, February 24, 2011 - 09:53 pm:   

Will Hutton and George Monbiat make the point that it's nigh on impossible to force democracy on countries whose peoples are not ready to think that way. (Such as the US and the UK, for instance.)
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 78.152.223.182
Posted on Thursday, February 24, 2011 - 11:29 pm:   

Nobody's forcing anything on these people, and there are other forms of government that are not democratic but still not dictatorships.
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Carolinec (Carolinec)
Username: Carolinec

Registered: 06-2009
Posted From: 92.232.199.129
Posted on Friday, February 25, 2011 - 12:21 am:   

>>Why would they need that?<<

Well, what happened in Iraq once the dictator was removed? The different factions started fighting each other, that's what. I just fear that this could also happen in other countries like this. As I said, I hope it doesn't, but I have a horrible feeling it might.

The West is always too ready to force its views onto other countries - making out that "our" way of doing things is best, eg. capitalism, market forces, democratic rule, etc. But different countries have different cultures and different values (see Hofstede's research on national culture). A model of politics created in the West isn't going to suit all countries. That's my belief anyway.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.31.252.101
Posted on Friday, February 25, 2011 - 08:32 am:   

Precisely, Caroline. Western democracy, naff though it can be argued to be, has evolved over centuries. Other cultures are not 'ripe' for it. You can't just put a square peg in a round hole, without re-shaping the hole first.

Proto: of course. Nobody I can see here is disputing that. But "we must bring democracy to all lands" is the Western line we keep getting spun.
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Friday, February 25, 2011 - 10:59 am:   

Once the hated regimes have been deposed who do you think these countries resentments will be turned against next? The Western powers that be who propped them up and the hated capitalist mechanisms that created the global crisis in the first place. Look at our fawning over Saudi Arabia (a monstrous regime) and try to imagine what would happen if there was a popular uprising there! You think America would sit back and watch that one?
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Friday, February 25, 2011 - 11:02 am:   

And as for the State of Israel... say goodnight!
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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 212.219.233.223
Posted on Friday, February 25, 2011 - 11:58 am:   

> ...what happened in Iraq once the dictator was removed? The different factions started fighting each other, that's what. I just fear that this could also happen in other countries like this...

So what? Even if that does happen all across the Islamic world, they have the right to fight over issues we know nothing about. The sunni/shia dispute goes back a long way. We shouldn't have the presumption to interfere, because we sure as hell don't know the issues involved.

All these scumbag dictators need to be overthrown. Peace at any price is morally wrong. The realpolitik attitude of propping up dictators in the name of stability is WRONG. Forget pratical considerations: it's time to think about justice, honour and truth instead!

If the worst comes to the worst and the entire Arab world becomes a seething mass of fundamentalist Islamist fanatics, so what? Yes, we'll have a new powerful enemy united in its hatred of the West along our borders... But are we so weak that we can't live with that???!

Strong enemies are a boon. They give us a prime opportunity: an opportunity for us to demonstrate our courage and sang-froid. What use to us are soft enemies? It doesn't reflect much honour on us if we stand up to a soft enemy. But to stand up to a strong enemy... Ah, therein lies glory!

A soft safe world will turn us soft. Let's make a virtue out of necessity and welcome this opportunity. The European powers strolled around the world, shafting states and peoples left, right and centre. Now we're reaping the result. Let's reap it with some guts in our bellies, not like simpering weaklings.

Just my view, of course.
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Friday, February 25, 2011 - 12:33 pm:   

The interesting thing will be to see how the Russian-Chinese alliance develops and takes advantage of that strong enemy on our doorstep.
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.153.144.35
Posted on Friday, February 25, 2011 - 01:49 pm:   

Are you of the Klingon race, Rhys?
:-)
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 147.252.230.148
Posted on Friday, February 25, 2011 - 03:47 pm:   

I'm very uncomfortable with saying that other cultures "need" to be ruled by a dictator.
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 147.252.230.148
Posted on Friday, February 25, 2011 - 03:48 pm:   

"But to stand up to a strong enemy... Ah, therein lies glory!"

Jesus, life is futile.
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Friday, February 25, 2011 - 04:23 pm:   

Dictatorships must never be tolerated in any right thinking society and Western "democratic" governments (mainly the US Empire) have only themselves to blame for sowing the seeds of this inevitable explosion by sanctioning them. It is ironic that it was the Lords of Capitalist Greed (the Banks) who finally lit the fuse.

The spectacle of Gadaffi doling out free money to every family in Libya in a last desperate attempt to bribe them back into conformity has to be the ultimate joke on the failed capitalist system lol. Satire is dead after this one...
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.153.144.35
Posted on Friday, February 25, 2011 - 05:07 pm:   

If it means anything, Egypt and Tunisia are BEGGING us to visit their countries today and travel there is cheaper than it's ever been. We're thinking of going, even if we will feel like the people on the beach in Jaws being encouraged by the mayor to 'go take a dip'.
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Carolinec (Carolinec)
Username: Carolinec

Registered: 06-2009
Posted From: 92.232.199.129
Posted on Friday, February 25, 2011 - 08:37 pm:   

>>I'm very uncomfortable with saying that other cultures "need" to be ruled by a dictator.<<

I didn't actually say that they DID need to be ruled by a dictator, Proto. I said WHAT IF they did need such a regime in order to hold their countries together? Or, that's what I was trying to say anyway. It was a question I posed - something I've been pondering since this all sparked off - not a statement of my belief. But what I do strongly believe is that the "one size fits all" theory which the West seems to espouse (sorry, is that the right word? I've had a busy day today and my brain's half dead) isn't a good theory at all.

Rhys - "We shouldn't have the presumption to interfere, because we sure as hell don't know the issues involved."

I totally agree with that and I definitely didn't suggest that we should interfere.

Am I making any sense here? My comments seem to be being misunderstood.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.31.252.101
Posted on Friday, February 25, 2011 - 10:34 pm:   

I totally agree with Caroline. Lots of research points this way. Countries a good way from internalising/assimilaitng democratic principles need a hierarchical form of government. And that doesn't mean a dictatorship, though that often is the way it turns out.
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 78.152.218.52
Posted on Saturday, February 26, 2011 - 12:15 am:   

My statement still stands.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.31.252.101
Posted on Saturday, February 26, 2011 - 01:09 am:   

Well, if you're going to be dictatorial about it . . . :-)
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 109.79.102.248
Posted on Saturday, February 26, 2011 - 07:20 am:   

You people need a bit of slapping about.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.31.252.101
Posted on Saturday, February 26, 2011 - 10:05 am:   

There's nothing prescription or hegemonic about trying to identify fundamental principles of group psychology.
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 109.79.67.218
Posted on Saturday, February 26, 2011 - 10:07 am:   

Slap.
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 09-2010
Posted From: 81.131.174.204
Posted on Saturday, February 26, 2011 - 10:19 am:   

Group psychology has been altered by the internet.
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 109.79.67.218
Posted on Saturday, February 26, 2011 - 10:30 am:   

Good point, Des.

Slap.
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 109.79.67.218
Posted on Saturday, February 26, 2011 - 10:40 am:   

This diversion from the LHC is my fault. I don't understand it either. But then, I'm using "common sense" the function of which isn't to try to understand the Universe, but to assist with killing, eating and copulating with some parts of it.
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 109.79.67.218
Posted on Saturday, February 26, 2011 - 10:40 am:   

I'm sabotaging myself from my own past.
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Hubert (Hubert)
Username: Hubert

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 178.116.60.173
Posted on Saturday, February 26, 2011 - 11:22 am:   

What we need is another Lawrence of Arabia to keep all these desert dwellers from fighting each other.
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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 212.219.233.223
Posted on Saturday, February 26, 2011 - 11:34 am:   

> Am I making any sense here? My comments seem to be being misunderstood.

Oh, join the club, Caroline! My comments have been regularly misunderstood since 1998. Sometimes deliberately... Seriously, let's all form a club of Misunderstoodees...

The scenario I described above in my so-called 'klingon post' is the worst case scenario, and I was trying to point out that even the worst case scenario can have its advantages. I'm a naive optimist, I guess. Maybe even a Panglossian... But my own belief is that everything is going to get better in North Africa and the Middle East, not worse...

We all remember the days of the Soviet Union, don't we? Much scarier back then, wasn't it? It genuinely felt like WWIII might be on the way. But we didn't shake and blubber: we mostly got on with our lives.

The current domino effect of dictators and dictatorial regimes being overthrown isn't exactly new. Plenty of people here have mentioned the amazing year of 1989. But even in Africa there have been attempts to knock out dictators one by one: those earlier efforts failed but lots of stuff happened. Anyone here remember Thomas Sankara and Jerry Rawlings? And at one point, with Kagame, Museveni and Kabila, it looked like there might be a new anti-corruption league in Africa. Then Kabila sold out to his base desires and Museveni also faltered...

I feel pretty optimistic about the future... But the point that has already been made about democracy not necessarily being the best form of government for everyone is a valid one. In fact the idea that democracy is the ultimate destination of all political systems is a bit weird. When I was growing up, received wisdom seemed to be that democracy was merely another stage on the political evolutionary ladder, superior to autocracy, oligarchy, timocracy, plutocracy, etc, but by no means the ultimate system.

The rebels in the east of Libya seem to be operating under principles that are almost anarcho-syndicalist, not Islamist at all. My main fear is that the West will interfere with this... Vested interests and big business always seem to regard anarcho-syndicalism as the worst possible political set-up; in fact it's probably the best there is, superior both to dictatorship and representative democracy.

That's my blather for the day...
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.31.252.101
Posted on Saturday, February 26, 2011 - 11:39 am:   

Yeah, since it's apparent that words are being put into my mouth, I'm bowing out.
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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 212.219.233.223
Posted on Saturday, February 26, 2011 - 12:01 pm:   

> What we need is another Lawrence of Arabia to keep all these desert dwellers from fighting each other.

More tea, vicar? Or should that be:
More T.E., mullah?
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 109.79.118.130
Posted on Saturday, February 26, 2011 - 07:17 pm:   

On new year's eve this year I slept in a tent in a Wadi Rum canyon. There was no moon, but enough starlight to cast a dim shadow. As the wind played the canyon like a musical instrument, I looked up at too many stars for the mind to handle and I thought I understood Lawrence a bit more. What a wonderful place to go mad.
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 109.79.118.130
Posted on Saturday, February 26, 2011 - 07:19 pm:   

"Vested interests and big business always seem to regard anarcho-syndicalism as the worst possible political set-up;"

It probably IS the worst possible setup for a man running a small business selling inkjet printer cartridges. The world must be rearranged for him.
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 109.79.118.130
Posted on Saturday, February 26, 2011 - 07:29 pm:   

Gary, I'm only messing about, but I don't like smileys, so that gets me into trouble. Sorry if silliness came across as belligerence. Sorry for writing the word slap at everyone, too.

@me: slap.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.31.252.101
Posted on Saturday, February 26, 2011 - 08:22 pm:   

OK, squire.
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Carolinec (Carolinec)
Username: Carolinec

Registered: 06-2009
Posted From: 92.232.199.129
Posted on Saturday, February 26, 2011 - 08:41 pm:   

Keep slapping me, Proto - I'm enjoying it.
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 109.79.38.173
Posted on Saturday, February 26, 2011 - 08:47 pm:   

"Keep slapping me, Proto - I'm enjoying it."

I want out.
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Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch)
Username: Mark_lynch

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 217.171.129.69
Posted on Sunday, February 27, 2011 - 12:09 am:   

The reality of the multiverse and its infinite manifest uglinesses is not much fun, but ultimately reality's still the only place to get a square meal.
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Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch)
Username: Mark_lynch

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 217.171.129.69
Posted on Sunday, February 27, 2011 - 12:13 am:   

By the way, anyone see the brief interview with one of Gaddafi's sons the other day?

He said,
'Plan A is to live and die in Libya.
'Plan B is to live and die in Libya.
'Plan C is to live and die in Libya.'

To which I really wanted the interviewer to say,
'And what of Plan D?'

But I suppose he wanted to stay alive, the spoilsport.
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 09-2010
Posted From: 86.169.43.224
Posted on Thursday, March 10, 2011 - 04:51 pm:   

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1052354/Are-going-die-Wednesday.h tml

Are we all going to die next Wednesday?
If so, the Large Hadron Collider to blame?
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.132.93.110
Posted on Thursday, March 10, 2011 - 05:24 pm:   

Oh, not again. Another thing to keep from the kids. They nearly had breakdowns with it all last year already. Never seen them so miserable. Does science really need to know these things?
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Jonathan (Jonathan)
Username: Jonathan

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 91.143.178.131
Posted on Thursday, March 10, 2011 - 05:26 pm:   

*sigh*

The hysteria surrounding this thing really does my noggin in.
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 09-2010
Posted From: 86.169.43.224
Posted on Thursday, March 10, 2011 - 05:27 pm:   

I'm sorry, but as editor and publisher of CERN ZOO, I sense this is not a bluff. You can come back on to this thread after next Wednesday and prove me wrong. Well, I hope you can.
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 147.252.230.148
Posted on Thursday, March 10, 2011 - 05:31 pm:   

"Cities would be levelled, the oceans would rise and wash in a series of mega-tsunamis that would attack the world's coasts, killing millions."

So St. Patrick's Day comes a day early, what's the big deal?
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.143.134.223
Posted on Thursday, March 10, 2011 - 05:34 pm:   

With this kind of news it leaves us only the one option but to panic. I try to see and feel sense but it's difficult. We're flock creatures, and if one of us says there's a problem we're compelled to listen to them.
:-(
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 147.252.230.148
Posted on Thursday, March 10, 2011 - 05:38 pm:   

Cosmic rays have had billions of years to do naturally what we're doing artificially and it hasn't happened, so relax, disperse, and return to your homes folks.

Ha! I love the Daily Mail. After a GIANT artist's impression of the whole Universe swirling down the toilet and paragraphs of vivid descriptions of how the world will be torn apart like a Friday night pizza, buried deep in the febrile copy we get...

"So is there really a chance that the scientists have made a terrible miscalculation and that their new toy could inadvertently kill us all?

Happily, the simple answer is no."
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Carolinec (Carolinec)
Username: Carolinec

Registered: 06-2009
Posted From: 92.232.199.129
Posted on Thursday, March 10, 2011 - 06:55 pm:   

>>Are we all going to die next Wednesday?<<

I hope not - my husband's pension becomes due on the Thursday and we want to enjoy it!
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 213.122.108.107
Posted on Sunday, March 13, 2011 - 11:45 am:   

'Everyone who thinks the LHC will destroy the earth is a tw*t' - Brian Cox.
And the word wasn't twit.
So people who 'naively' think the press would only tell them the truth, people who foolishly haven't studied physics and people who are just beaten down by a world that makes them afraid are 'tw*ts'?
Thanks, Brian.
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 09-2010
Posted From: 86.169.43.224
Posted on Sunday, March 13, 2011 - 12:11 pm:   

Indeed, Tony. There is more to Nature than simple observable cause-and-effect, I suggest.

Some who read this thread may also be interested in this one:
http://www.ligotti.net/showthread.php?t=5183
that was started a day before the Japanese disaster.
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 109.79.9.209
Posted on Sunday, March 13, 2011 - 11:45 pm:   

"So people who 'naively' think the press would only tell them the truth, "

Yes, I'd agree with him on that.

"...people who foolishly haven't studied physics"

or who form outrageous opinions on a physics experiment (e.g., that it will destroy the Universe) without doing a minimal amount of reading around about it first..? I'm with him on this too.

"...and people who are just beaten down by a world that makes them afraid are 'tw*ts'?"

You're stretching his sentence so much that it's become translucent here.
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 213.122.108.107
Posted on Monday, March 14, 2011 - 10:47 am:   

So I'm a twat, then. Thanks for that.

I used to work with this bloke with special needs who at any given opportunity would creep up behind me and shout 'boo' at the top of his lungs. Even though I knew he was there and it was just the simple shouting of the word boo it still made my time with him an absolute misery.

My last sentence, let me make it more 'opaque' - I am SICK of people shouting boo at me.
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 213.122.108.107
Posted on Monday, March 14, 2011 - 10:51 am:   

And when people - not just scientists - play about with these big things - or things that 'fee' big - without even asking, it detonates something inside us, a deep unease about everything. They never, ever get it. And it doesn't help our press is so shit.
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 213.122.108.107
Posted on Monday, March 14, 2011 - 11:11 am:   

feel
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 213.122.108.107
Posted on Monday, March 14, 2011 - 11:42 am:   

I've just looked up what the point of the collidor is and can see no tangible fruit coming from what it does. I'm impressed by it existing, but not by what it is doing. It's like spending billions trying to understand why people paint.
Aren't there really any better things they could have done?
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Carolinec (Carolinec)
Username: Carolinec

Registered: 06-2009
Posted From: 92.232.199.129
Posted on Monday, March 14, 2011 - 12:26 pm:   

>>Aren't there really any better things they could have done?<<

Totally agree with you on that, Tony. I've always wondered why humans spend billions on things like space exploration, developing weapons of mass destruction, etc, etc, when there are people without the very basic of needs, like sufficient food and water. 'Tis a strange world we live in, for sure.

But I refuse to worry about the effects of this collider thingy. If I worried too much about things like that, it'd drive me mad. No, I'm confident I'll be reporting back on this thread on Thursday to say that I'm still alive. Or maybe I shouldn't be so confident? After all, I could get run over by a bus on Wednesday ...
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 109.79.237.51
Posted on Monday, March 14, 2011 - 10:46 pm:   

Again, I'd say the responsibility of every individual to educate themselves about these subjects in order to hold valid opinions on them. The computer you typed these words on couldn't have been made without a knowledge of quantum physics, which would also have been accused of being a useless waste of resources at the time it was discovered.

Caroline, your putting space exploration on a par with developing weapons of mass destruction, as if they were the same thing, exasperates me.
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 109.79.237.51
Posted on Monday, March 14, 2011 - 10:49 pm:   

"I am SICK of people shouting boo at me."

Who's doing the shouting?
I think you've picked the wrong target.
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Carolinec (Carolinec)
Username: Carolinec

Registered: 06-2009
Posted From: 92.232.199.129
Posted on Tuesday, March 15, 2011 - 01:17 pm:   

>>Caroline, your putting space exploration on a par with developing weapons of mass destruction, as if they were the same thing, exasperates me.<<

Sorry, Proto, no disrespect intended by my comment - I know you're a scientist and many (most?) scientists certainly do valuable work. But I have always had this question in my head about why humans spend millions on seemingly (to me) useless things when there are much more pressing needs closer to home (eg. feeding the hungry). The "space race" and the "arms race" always seemed to me to be examples of such misplaced priorities.

We all have our own opinions - I'm not trying to pick a fight or upset anyone - but that question has always been at the back of my mind since I was a youngster.
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 109.79.202.251
Posted on Tuesday, March 15, 2011 - 01:43 pm:   

I undersstand what you're saying Caroline, but the "hospitals and schools" argument is one that people seem to use whenever anyone spends money on something that they don't approve of. We can't spend every penny on hospitals and schools or we'd have nothing but hospitals and schools.

But we can see the fruits of long-term open-ended research all around us, so it baffles me when people flying across the Atlantic while listening to their iPods type into their laptop that they "don't see the benefits" of pure research.
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Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 195.166.117.210
Posted on Tuesday, March 15, 2011 - 01:51 pm:   

it baffles me when people flying across the Atlantic while listening to their iPods type into their laptop that they "don't see the benefits" of pure research.

That's actually a very good point. And we all know that if we didn't do this research, the money wouldn't be used to build a hospital or stop world hunger anyway. I'll all for this kind of research - we human beings need to pursue knowledge, in the hope that it opens up the universe.
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Hubert (Hubert)
Username: Hubert

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 178.118.79.219
Posted on Tuesday, March 15, 2011 - 02:49 pm:   

Don't forget that all the digital gizmos we surround ourselves with are a direct result of space exploration. The first generation of digital watches in the early seventies came into being thanks to the research that was done for the lunar missions. Fact!
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 109.79.194.73
Posted on Tuesday, March 15, 2011 - 03:15 pm:   

I didn't know that bit. I haven't seen a digital watch in ages, though.
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 109.79.194.73
Posted on Tuesday, March 15, 2011 - 03:16 pm:   

Or a watch, come to think of it.
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Tuesday, March 15, 2011 - 03:34 pm:   

I still miss (and strangely don't miss) having a watch on my wrist due to always telling the time by my mobile phone nowadays. I think it's called progress, but still...
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Weber (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 194.176.105.56
Posted on Tuesday, March 15, 2011 - 03:41 pm:   

I feel naked without a watch on my wrist. Mind you, the only time I take it off tends to be when I'm having a shower... so that might be the reason for that.
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 109.79.194.73
Posted on Tuesday, March 15, 2011 - 04:20 pm:   

Actually, everyone has to meet everyone half way here. The public have to do their own research into their opinions and educate themselves, but scientists do have to explain what they're doing better.

For instance, quantum physics in the early part of the 20th century, scientists discovered that light was "quantised" into small packets called photons, rather than in a continuous beam, as was previously thought.

For example, probably the first thing you saw today when you woke up came from quantum theory.

Quantum theory showed that in atoms electrons are at different energy levels (think of them as apples on shelves at different heights). If an electron falls down from one shelf to a lower one, it gives out energy in the form of a photon - light. (Just as if an apple falls from a shelf to a lower shelf it gives out its energy in the form of sound (bang!)).

This is how light-emitting diodes (LEDs) work - the numbers on your alarm clock. None of this could have been developed without understanding about the different energy levels that exist in the atom, which was once research that had no discernable practical use.
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 213.122.108.107
Posted on Tuesday, March 15, 2011 - 05:54 pm:   

Hi Proto - you're right on all points. I'm sorry I've been grouchy and trying to find feasible-sounding ways of justifying my fears. It's odd, because I'm almost instantly regretting everything I say these days. I want to live in a Star Trek universe but moan when any efforts are made to get us there.
Sorry, everyone.
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 213.122.108.107
Posted on Tuesday, March 15, 2011 - 05:56 pm:   

But that said, I do sort of still think big weird scientific things can give us the psychic collywobbles. It's change, I suppose; we have to acclimatise spiritually to it as well as mentally.
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 213.122.108.107
Posted on Tuesday, March 15, 2011 - 05:58 pm:   

I gave my son my phone and dongle today because i realised both the net and my phone were affecting me badly. It's been the oddest day, like cold turkey. I never realised how much my mind spent constructing nice text messages or wanting to take pictures, not just enjoy things for what they were. Got a lot of writing done, and my eyes don't hurt for once.
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 10:43 am:   

Sorry to hear that, Tony, as I enjoyed your texts but you gotta do what's right for you.
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Jonathan (Jonathan)
Username: Jonathan

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 91.143.178.131
Posted on Friday, March 18, 2011 - 10:09 am:   

So I notice we're all still here and didn't disappear into a tear into the space/time continuum.
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 109.79.18.7
Posted on Friday, March 18, 2011 - 10:24 am:   

(Nobody answer. Freak him out.)
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Weber (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 194.176.105.56
Posted on Friday, March 18, 2011 - 10:53 am:   

"So I notice we're all still here and didn't disappear into a tear into the space/time continuum."

I did.


But I got better.
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Simon Bestwick (Simon_b)
Username: Simon_b

Registered: 10-2008
Posted From: 86.24.209.217
Posted on Friday, March 18, 2011 - 11:39 am:   

Ah, but what if we have been pulled through a rip created in the dimensional walls, so fast we didn't notice, and are now in an transdimensional void in which the laws of reality will soon bend and-

(Bestwick is shot.)
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Simon Bestwick (Simon_b)
Username: Simon_b

Registered: 10-2008
Posted From: 86.24.209.217
Posted on Friday, March 18, 2011 - 11:41 am:   

Weber- no, 'up your own arse' and 'into a tear in the space/time continuum' are not synonyms.

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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 09-2010
Posted From: 86.165.39.12
Posted on Friday, March 18, 2011 - 11:58 am:   

I'm sorry it was a false alarm. As consolation, you can all have a free copy of Nemonymous Six. Take one from the pile by the Door.
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Allybird (Allybird)
Username: Allybird

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 88.104.137.65
Posted on Friday, March 18, 2011 - 12:04 pm:   

'Ah, but what if we have been pulled through a rip created in the dimensional walls, so fast we didn't notice, and are now in an transdimensional void in which the laws of reality will soon bend and...'

Al said something similar last night :>).
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Simon Bestwick (Simon_b)
Username: Simon_b

Registered: 10-2008
Posted From: 86.24.209.217
Posted on Friday, March 18, 2011 - 12:14 pm:   

Probably wishful thinking what with being married to you, Ally.
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Carolinec (Carolinec)
Username: Carolinec

Registered: 06-2009
Posted From: 92.232.199.129
Posted on Friday, March 18, 2011 - 01:21 pm:   

>>As consolation, you can all have a free copy of Nemonymous Six. Take one from the pile by the Door.<<

Only if you'll sign it for me, Des! (in invisible ink, perhaps?)

Yes, I'd forgotten to check back in here and say that my little corner of the world is still intact. Mind you, other corners of the world are taking a hell of a battering at the moment from one thing or another. Hubby said something quite profound to me the other night as we were watching all the mayhem on the news: "Has the world gone a little crazy lately, or is it just us?"
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Allybird (Allybird)
Username: Allybird

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 88.104.137.65
Posted on Friday, March 18, 2011 - 03:10 pm:   

'Probably wishful thinking what with being married to you, Ally.'

Oi! There's worse than me out there! Somewhere ...perhaps....even more of me.

On reading about the multiverse just then ....

'The view that because fictions exist, fictional characters exist as well. There are fictional entities, in the same sense as that in which, setting aside philosophical disputes, there are people, Mondays, numbers and planets...'

Which led me to thinking. Imagine every character you have ever created walking about in another universe somewhere and you responsible for creating them.
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Carolinec (Carolinec)
Username: Carolinec

Registered: 06-2009
Posted From: 92.232.199.129
Posted on Friday, March 18, 2011 - 08:52 pm:   

>>Imagine every character you have ever created walking about in another universe somewhere and you responsible for creating them.<<

Sounds like a Twilight Zone episode, Ally. In fact, it probably was!
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Allybird (Allybird)
Username: Allybird

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 88.104.137.65
Posted on Friday, March 18, 2011 - 08:55 pm:   

Probably
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Carolinec (Carolinec)
Username: Carolinec

Registered: 06-2009
Posted From: 92.232.199.129
Posted on Friday, March 18, 2011 - 08:59 pm:   

Thinking about it, Ally, that would mean that the author who created the characters would be God in that other universe. Hmmm ... so you might all be gods here then?
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Allybird (Allybird)
Username: Allybird

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 88.104.137.65
Posted on Friday, March 18, 2011 - 09:05 pm:   

Ha! Al put me on a pedestal 18 years ago but I keep falling off.
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 109.79.21.133
Posted on Friday, March 18, 2011 - 10:01 pm:   

"Imagine every character you have ever created walking about in another universe somewhere and you responsible for creating them."

You've got it the wrong way around - someone wrote us.

Here's a theory about virtual reality that is disquieting. If it's possible to create virtual worlds, then the number of virtual worlds is probably much greater than the number of real ones (i.e., 1). Therefore, the chances that we're in the real world are miniscule. Sleep tight.
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 09-2010
Posted From: 86.165.39.12
Posted on Monday, March 21, 2011 - 06:09 pm:   

Hadron Collider or Fukishima or Gaddafery?

fuk
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 09-2010
Posted From: 86.165.39.12
Posted on Monday, March 21, 2011 - 10:40 pm:   

Fukushima

- sorry
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 09-2010
Posted From: 86.165.36.129
Posted on Monday, April 25, 2011 - 08:16 pm:   

Thanks to Steve for this link. Higgs Boson now found?
http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2011/04/newsflash-rumor-in-worlds-physicis- community-that-cerns-lhc-has-detected-the-higgs-boson-the-god-par.html
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 09-2010
Posted From: 86.165.37.187
Posted on Monday, June 06, 2011 - 12:07 am:   

Brealking News - Scientists at LHC have trapped anti-hydrogen atoms for 16 minutes. The previous record was 2 seconds.
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 109.79.61.123
Posted on Monday, June 06, 2011 - 12:31 am:   

I've trapped my auntie Imogen for 16 minutes, but she got away. What happens if pasta and anti-pasta meet?
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 09-2010
Posted From: 86.165.37.187
Posted on Monday, June 06, 2011 - 08:38 am:   

Sorry that should be two-tenths of a second, not two seconds.
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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 212.219.233.223
Posted on Monday, June 06, 2011 - 11:18 am:   

> What happens if pasta and anti-pasta meet?

You get a hot fusilli reaction.
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John Llewellyn Probert (John_l_probert)
Username: John_l_probert

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 213.253.174.81
Posted on Monday, June 06, 2011 - 03:30 pm:   

Not a Noodlear reaction, then?
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 09-2010
Posted From: 86.143.98.239
Posted on Friday, September 23, 2011 - 08:52 am:   

http://www.latimes.com/news/science/la-sci-0923-speed-of-light-20110923,0,497738 .story

"Faster than light? CERN findings bewilder scientists"
--------------------------

Does this mean that we need a new view of reality itself - retrocausally?

Talk was of stress-tests, now it's of circuit-breakers.

We need perhaps to park all our quarrels and micro-meltdowns as serial 'ground or cone zeros' then walk round them happily in denial as the neutrinos numb us with their outlandish speed...
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 09-2010
Posted From: 86.143.98.239
Posted on Friday, September 23, 2011 - 12:40 pm:   

Dear Lions Den author (Steve Duffy) from CERN Zoo,
If todays CERN findings turn out (incredibly!) to be correct about things being able to move faster than light, then I now fully understand why your story was situated around the turn of the Millennium


Lion's Den Syndrome: http://cernzoo.wordpress.com/tromso/
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Friday, September 23, 2011 - 01:03 pm:   

If this is true, Des, and I am always suspicious of so-called "universal limitations" imposed by the human senses, then the concept of travelling backwards through time becomes a feasible reality.
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Friday, September 23, 2011 - 04:06 pm:   

Saw it on the News today! Scientists aren't proclaiming it as a "discovery" because they can't believe it themselves and are checking to the Nth degree. One can feel paradigms shifting as we speak. It seems Heisenberg may been vindicated after all.

This all fits in with my theory of infinological certainty! The chain has been let out and another curtain has been passed through. I wonder what chinks of strange light we may glimpse through the one behind it...
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Hubert (Hubert)
Username: Hubert

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 178.116.55.170
Posted on Friday, September 23, 2011 - 04:46 pm:   

Reality remains the same. Our erroneous perception of it changes every few centuries or so or is slightly adjusted. That is all. I think John Stewart Bell and the so-called Bell Theorem come closest to some sort of definition of reality. Bell proves the existence of a form of communication between all subluminary particles in the entire universe. The nature of this 'exchange of information' as he calls it, remain unknown. The mathematics of this are frankly mind-boggling: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell's_theorem
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 99.126.164.88
Posted on Friday, September 23, 2011 - 04:48 pm:   

In Gene Wolfe's AN EVIL FRIEND, they've developed faster-than-light email, to communicate between the immense distances of colonized planets... and so, a side-effect is (because when you travel faster than light you bend space and time) you will sometimes get emails (or responses to) from the future, like prophecies....

I heard someone make an interesting point about all this regarding those pro-"global warming": How can anyone claim the science there is "settled," when even Einstein's theory is now being overturned? Doesn't this prove that science is never fully settled, but always one theory away from displacement?
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Hubert (Hubert)
Username: Hubert

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 178.116.55.170
Posted on Friday, September 23, 2011 - 04:50 pm:   

There seems to be something wrong with the link; a Google search for Bell's theorem will get you there.
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 109.79.105.215
Posted on Friday, September 23, 2011 - 09:32 pm:   

"I heard someone make an interesting point about all this regarding those pro-"global warming": How can anyone claim the science there is "settled," when even Einstein's theory is now being overturned? Doesn't this prove that science is never fully settled, but always one theory away from displacement?"

The old laws are rarely thrown out completely, they are refined.

Take the orbits of the planets. Copernicus was refined by Kepler. Kepler was refined by Newton. Newton was refined by Einstein. Yet the earlier models still work. The refinements were just that - correcting smaller and smaller deviations of the model from the observed facts. Yes, they involved paradigm shifts that were often mind-bending to those who lived through them, but even those paradigm shifts didn't invalidate the earlier models, many of which are still used today.

Kepler's laws are still used to guide probes and satellites. When you’re doing something as important as designing the brakes of a car you don't correct for relativistic effects. They're there, but they're negligible. I think we can agree that the science behind traffic collision physics is as “settled” as it needs to be. I believe it’s the same with another macroscopic problem, global warming.

One of the essential things for a scientific theory to be considered a good one is that there must be a way to disprove it. You must leave yourself open to being proven wrong. If you're going to question the established facts, you need to do so in a specific way, which leaves you open to being contradicted.

Macroscopic physics is very well understood. I'm interested to hear your specific reasoning on how a change in a theory of subatomic particle physics could affect our models of a macroscopic physics problem like global warming.

Yes, things change, but just because science doesn't know everything, that doesn't mean it doesn't know anything.
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 99.126.164.88
Posted on Friday, September 23, 2011 - 09:41 pm:   

My problems with "global warming" actual have little to do, and don't condense down to, anything scientific. It's purely political.

It goes like this: I don't trust any fucking turd politician.

So, when fucking turd politicians are using global warming as a pretext for control, power-grabbing, tyranny, cronyism, totalitarianism, I'm against them and their fixes (pun-intended).

As long as corrupto-pluto-tsara-womanizingdeviantshit-acrat Al Gore remains the face in front of global warming, I'm tuned-out, turned-off, and shut-down.
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 109.79.101.199
Posted on Friday, September 23, 2011 - 09:46 pm:   

I actually agree with you. The real baddies here are the politians and private business interests who use the situation to push their own agendas.

If your views have nothing to do with science, then can we take it that you accept the scientific consensus?
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 99.126.164.88
Posted on Friday, September 23, 2011 - 10:53 pm:   

I accept the scientific consensus that there is indeed a kind of global warming occurring.

I'm divided as to the why it is, again, knowing in advance I know little about the issue. I personally think (and I believe there's evidence?) that things like sunspot activity can account for more global warming than any number of aerosol hairspray cans.

I also think the whole business of "carbon offsets" are a money-scheme from scheming schemers.
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 99.126.164.88
Posted on Friday, September 23, 2011 - 11:00 pm:   

Here you go. Fucking insanity: http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/obama-administration-ban-asthma-inhalers-ove r-environmental-concerns_594113.html

Soon, we won't have incandescent bulbs anywhere in America. Instead, the mercury-poison-filled sickly-lighting rather-go-blind-personally-than-deal-with fluorescent ones advocated by the politicians who had their palms greased by various lobbyists.

It's only a matter of time until Judge Dead rides out, saying the leading cause of global warming is living breathing human beings, and so the best way to stop it is....
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 78.152.221.111
Posted on Saturday, September 24, 2011 - 01:13 am:   

The scientific consensus is not only that global warming is real, but that mankind's activities are its primary cause. From what you're saying, it seems that you don't actually accept the scientific consensus.
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Weber (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.148.242.34
Posted on Saturday, September 24, 2011 - 01:32 am:   

Scientific consensus for many decades was that ulcers were caused by stress. Then one guy pointed out (to extreme ridicule from the scientific community) that they're caused by H Pylori bacteria. It wasn't till he proved it by drinking a vial of the bacteria and giving himself an uler that anyone took notice.

Scientific consensus can be 100% wrong.
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 99.126.164.88
Posted on Saturday, September 24, 2011 - 02:00 am:   

If that's the consensus, Proto, then I guess I am against the consensus. And I'm just using my own mind's resources on this one, not the evidence, so I won't say I'm absolutely right or nothing.

But one can use simple logic even in areas where one is ignorant to make informed decisions. Like this: Though the overwhelming scientific consensus is that man causes global warming, there are still those dissenters, who are themselves scientists with conflicting theories. Therefore... there's not A scientific consensus, but there IS general consensus.

It is my personal belief, that scientists are themselves as prone as anyone, to power-hunger, the anxiety over being relevant, avarice, etc. Scientists are fallible, and none yet has ever been spotted with a halo over his or her head.

But today, you'd think disagreeing with scientists, is like in ye olden days disagreeing with priests. And I'm not in for established religions, of even the non-religious kind.

I'm going to save the planet by not having you google this, but rather, link to it directly - http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/tech_and_web/article5489134.ece So where are the scientists up in arms over google - or fuck, the ENTIRE POWER-SUCKING INTERNET in general?!?

God knows how many rain-forests have been destroyed by this mutherfucker alone! http://youtu.be/_OBlgSz8sSM
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 78.152.221.111
Posted on Saturday, September 24, 2011 - 03:05 am:   

"Scientific consensus can be 100% wrong."

This example is not one that changed a paradigm in biology. It was a specific discovery, one rare enough for the people involved to win a Nobel prize.

Physics - especially the macroscopic physics involved in global warming - is a much simpler and therefore more developed science than chemistry or biology. We have no everyday conception of the microscopic world. But it's unlikely that hot air will start falling or melting ice will somehow increase oceanic salinity. These would require fundamental shifts in reality itself.

When 95% of the experts tell us that the long-term survival of homo sapiens is at risk, I think it's irresponsible to hope that reality itself will change to save us.

Start @ 1:15:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8IBnfkcrsM


It's like Nathan Lane. We'd much rather pretend he didn't exist either, but the facts say otherwise.
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 78.152.221.111
Posted on Saturday, September 24, 2011 - 03:11 am:   

"there's not A scientific consensus, but there IS general consensus."

I consensus of scientists is a scientific consensus. What am I missing here?
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 78.152.221.111
Posted on Saturday, September 24, 2011 - 03:12 am:   

"there's not A scientific consensus, but there IS general consensus."

_A_ consensus of scientists is a scientific consensus. What am I missing here?
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 99.126.164.88
Posted on Saturday, September 24, 2011 - 04:16 am:   

I guess I meant to say, a consensus doesn't mean, beyond question.

I think the Earth not being flat is beyond question; but the evidence that man, and not some factor that is beyond man, is the major cause of global warming, is the problem I have.

If you go back a handful of years, the scientific community was sure a new ice-age was coming. They were sure of lots of things coming in the future. Fuck me, they can't predict the goddamned WEATHER a few days out! (Note the recent brouhaha over Hurricane Irene in the States, and how inaccurate scientists were - mere hours from the event!)
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 109.79.116.118
Posted on Sunday, September 25, 2011 - 12:11 am:   

As you know, weather and climate are not the same thing. I keep using the word macroscopic because climatology deals macroscopic phenomena. Phenomena that are small in time or space are subject to more random fluctuations than large phenomena. We might not be able to predict the timing of each wave on a beach, but we can predict the tides with great accuracy.

Yes, it's not certain and is always open to revision, which is what differentiates science from religion. It's about as certain as things ever get.

The options we have are to either to act, or not act and hope that 95% of the experts are wrong. If 95% of doctors told me I had to have an expensive and tough operation to save my life, I'd have to do something about it.
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 109.79.11.63
Posted on Monday, September 26, 2011 - 12:33 am:   

"We don't allow faster than light neutrinos in here," said the barman.
A neutrino walks into a bar.
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 99.126.164.88
Posted on Monday, September 26, 2011 - 01:11 am:   

Don't you mean, Proto, the 95% of the... the what percentage of the given pool of experts?...

That old joke: X = a symbol that stands in for the unknown. "Spurt" = a drip under pressure. Therefore, the "expert": an unknown drip under pressure.

Take the European schools of economics and professors of economics and the smarties in control at banks and financial institutions and in positions of finance in given countries - then look at the fucking DISASTER that is the EU, soon to be an economic tsunami that will sweep the world. Soon, we will be longing for those halcyon days we actually worried about the atmosphere post-our-lifetimes....
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 99.126.164.88
Posted on Monday, September 26, 2011 - 01:13 am:   

Er... it seems I was onto something with that first sentence above, apart from confusing illogic... but what that was, now escapes me....
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.152.191.118
Posted on Monday, September 26, 2011 - 10:45 am:   

I had a weird dream the other night about an economy built up on the sale of second-hand goods and mend and make. All the buildings were falling into disrepair and dimly lit. No-one watched telly because there was none, or little. I had the feeling if folk got sick they just killed themselves. It felt like a massive indoor market of a world. I quite liked it actually, at least in the dream - outside of it, awake, it does feel a little scary.

Someone I know bumped into a physics teacher on Friday night in Newcastle, on the underground. He was drunk and crying, saying 'physics was broken' and that the kids were mocking him at school, saying how could they trust physics anymore. I don't think such a thing can be broken, but I really feel for that chap, wonder if he knows more than we do.
Great joke, Proto.
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Hubert (Hubert)
Username: Hubert

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 178.116.55.170
Posted on Monday, September 26, 2011 - 03:01 pm:   

He was drunk and crying, saying 'physics was broken'

He cannot have been a very smart physicist, then. I see no reason to abdicate a theoretical construct which allows us to build giant bridges, send satellites and people into space, etc. Chances are that the new discovery won't add up to very much practically speaking, unless it helps us build, say, a revolutionary new engine or space drive.

There's some fascinating material in that dream, Tony. I'd try to develop it.
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 78.152.199.248
Posted on Monday, September 26, 2011 - 07:41 pm:   

"Take the European schools of economics and professors of economics and the smarties in control at banks and financial institutions and in positions of finance in given countries - then look at the fucking DISASTER that is the EU, soon to be an economic tsunami that will sweep the world. Soon, we will be longing for those halcyon days we actually worried about the atmosphere post-our-lifetimes...."

Economics isn't a science as it relies too much on human psyhchology. What caused the economic meltdown was greed. Climate change is indiffernt to what we think.
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 78.152.199.248
Posted on Monday, September 26, 2011 - 07:44 pm:   

Physics can only be broken if the Universe is inherently absurd and inconsistent. And nobody knows enough about it to say that. It's working pretty well so far. Enough to allow my words to travel across the world and irritate people I've never met. Magic!
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 78.152.199.248
Posted on Monday, September 26, 2011 - 07:45 pm:   

I do feel for that chap you saw though, Tony. I got very depressed once when I heard that the Big Bang was a random accident and none of it means anything. Then someone told me to look at it the other way - aren't we so lucky that it exists at all. We're alive! Wowsers!

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