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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.143.134.154
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 12:01 pm:   

I don't know about anyone else here but plugs for books or stories some of us have had published can be sort of grating, especially ones that keep popping up again and again like some horror movie bad guy.
I reckon we need a 'plugs' section for the board, and keep stuff like that there.
Is this a bit harsh? Do people like seeing/being reminded of work any of us have out? This might be chance to discuss it. I'm just keen that the board doesn't start to feel like a walk down the high street or mall where you get hounded by people with stalls or clipboards.
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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 212.219.233.223
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 12:04 pm:   

Self-promotion is wrong, Tony, pure and simple. WRONG!

But we have no other option...

For years I never self-promoted. Did other people notice my example and seek to emulate it? Did they fuck! They self promoted their arses off, back on and off again.

If you can't beat them, join 'em.

By the way, did I happen to mention that my latest book was published today...
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.143.134.154
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 12:08 pm:   

I'm really talking about certain threads that keep coming up - won't mention any names - where it's obvious someone is just posting on it to keep their book in our consciousness. It drives me shit-mad.
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.143.134.154
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 12:09 pm:   

AND IT PUTS ME OFF THEIR BOOKS.
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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 212.219.233.223
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 12:14 pm:   

Like I said, for years I never self-promoted... Then I eventually gave in and -- very tentatively -- promoted one of my recent books, and I was instantly slapped down for being a self-promoter (by none other than the great M. John Harrison)...

We can't ever wipe away the disease of self-promotion. It's as incurable as ego surfing. But we can at least ask authors to be entertaining when they self promote. Don't just mention your works. Do something else as well. Make witticisms, post funny photos, etc.
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Carolinec (Carolinec)
Username: Carolinec

Registered: 06-2009
Posted From: 92.232.199.129
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 12:53 pm:   

I'm in two minds about this, personally. On the one hand, self-promotion of one's own work is annoying and, yes, a little "wrong". BUT if you small press authors didn't self-promote, would your books get bought and read? I doubt it.

So, as I love the genre small press, I've come to realise that you guys HAVE to self-promote on discussion boards. As a reader, I like to find out what's out there. So, personally, I'm happy to see self-promotion on boards like this. If I'm not interested in the book, I just ignore the thread!

Ultimately, though, for this board, this should be Ramsey's decision to make ...
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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 212.219.233.223
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 01:03 pm:   

Caroline: I am usually asked by my publishers, editors, agents, etc, to promote whatever product is being issued. So I feel I have to do this, not just for my sake but for theirs also.

For instance, this very morning my new collection The Brothel Creeper was published.

If I fail to promote it, I'll be letting the publisher, Gary Fry, down; the book won't sell well and he'll lose money; he'll be forced to cancel his holiday and Gray Friar Press will probably collapse and never publish any other books in future including yours. (I mean this as a general warning, not specifically directed at you).

So it makes sense to buy my book! And it makes sense for me to self-promote. By by all the gods of the bumcrack, it's a dreadful thing to do! Self-promotion? UGH! By the way, my new ebook is now available from 40K. More details on my blog here:
http://rhysaurus.blogspot.com/

I do agree with you, Caroline, that if Ramsey Campbell would prefer for his visitors not to self-promote, then all self-promotion should come to an end immediately.
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Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 195.166.117.210
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 01:09 pm:   

Self-promotion isn't wrong - it's vital. Even my mass market publishers ask - nay, demand - that i self-promote in any way I can. There are no budgets for advertising at this level (the midlist), so it's essential authors do what they can.

Personaly, I like to see how my old mates on here are getting on with their published work. I even buy a lot of it.
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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 212.219.233.223
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 01:13 pm:   

> Even my mass market publishers ask - nay, demand - that i self-promote in any way I can.

Exactly! We have no choice. Despite what Jean Paul Sartre might say, we really have no choice!

The Brothel Creeper... Out today!

BY ALL THE GODS OF THE BUMCRACK!
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Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 195.166.117.210
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 01:14 pm:   

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Mbfg (Mbfg)
Username: Mbfg

Registered: 09-2010
Posted From: 212.219.63.204
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 01:19 pm:   

...but only if you can afford full page ads in Time Out and the TLS and posters on the sides of buses and on the walls of Underground Stations and radio adverts and are phototgenic when staring off author-like into the middle distance and are interviewed on the Radio 4 Book Programme or Front Row and get to sing your story on Later With Jools Holland. Otherwise the grubby task of book (self) promotion is down to us.

Cheers Terry author of "The Exaggerated Man" (Exaggerated Press 8.99), "The Places Between" Pendragon 6.99, "Bloody War" forthcoming from Eibonvale and "Axe" forthcoming from Blood Moon Press.
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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 212.219.233.223
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 01:24 pm:   

> ...posters on the sides of buses...

Oh yes.

poster on the side of bus
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Carolinec (Carolinec)
Username: Carolinec

Registered: 06-2009
Posted From: 92.232.199.129
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 01:33 pm:   

I guess I'm a little sad really as I haven't got anything to self-promote ...
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 09-2010
Posted From: 86.168.21.171
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 01:45 pm:   

It is a cliffed stick. Self-promote and put people completely off (and Tony is right there). And it leads to all sorts of insularism and its faults.

Equally, don't self-promote and let the book fall off the cliff never to be seen again (Zed and Rhys are right there).

What to do?

I've recently decided, in the main, just to to keep up the real-time reviewing...
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Robert_mammone (Robert_mammone)
Username: Robert_mammone

Registered: 07-2010
Posted From: 220.253.155.180
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 01:51 pm:   

Looks like I've put my foot right in it - wasn't aware of the tradition of this board at all. As I said in the thread I started, if the mods would kindly delete it, that's fine by me. I was more interested in getting word out about the magazine than anything to do with myself. Probably a bad thing to include the 'press release'.

Sorry for the hassle one and all.
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Carolinec (Carolinec)
Username: Carolinec

Registered: 06-2009
Posted From: 92.232.199.129
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 01:59 pm:   

Robert - don't worry, you didn't know. People DO self-promote here, and there certainly shouldn't be one rule for some people and another for others. Perhaps we do need some definite advice from Ramsey or Gary here?

Like I said above, as a reader I like to hear what people are doing. Without these kinds of posts I wouldn't buy as much stuff as I wouldn't know what was out there. Personally, I'd vote for continuing self-promotion here - so long as it's just a one-off plug rather than constant, ongoing and irritating plugging of one's own work.
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Mbfg (Mbfg)
Username: Mbfg

Registered: 09-2010
Posted From: 212.219.63.204
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 02:11 pm:   

I agree whoelhartedly with Caroline.

Cheers
Terry
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 217.37.199.45
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 02:29 pm:   

Robert, no worries. This is a general issue not one with reference to you in particular.

I think it's nice to know what RCMB members are doing, especially when someone has a book out. We should probably be a bit stingier with congratulations that becomes rather a time-consuming routine, with everyone saying 'Well done' and being personally thanked. At the same time I'd want to congratulate someone whose first novel had just reached the shops.

Bumping up book threads is also understandable when valid news gets buried under the issues du jour two years ago every other thread was about chavs, now it's about whether the moon landing was faked (give me strength).

If our landlord agrees and the technical side can be managed easily, I think it would be nice to have some sections so you can zero in on what interests you to read or post about. Possible section headings might be:

Books & magazines (not plugs)
Films
Music
Plugs
Events
Writing & publishing
Current issues
Personal news and comments
Double entendres
The moon landing
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Weber (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 194.176.105.56
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 02:39 pm:   

That limits me to only posting in one section...
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Frank (Frank)
Username: Frank

Registered: 09-2008
Posted From: 85.222.86.21
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 03:07 pm:   

Tony - sorry, mate, but didn't you once say you never read anybody's stuff from off RCMB anyway. It shouldn't drive you shit mad then. Sorry for being a grump, but it's, as Zed says, vital for a lot of people.

I mean when you get your collection out, you'll be in need of a spot of self-promotion, too. No disrespect intended.
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Frank (Frank)
Username: Frank

Registered: 09-2008
Posted From: 85.222.86.21
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 03:10 pm:   

I can't see how it'll put you off their books if you have no interest in reading them. Sorry, again.
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Allybird (Allybird)
Username: Allybird

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 88.104.137.65
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 03:13 pm:   

'Self-promotion isn't wrong - it's vital. Even my mass market publishers ask - nay, demand - that i self-promote in any way I can. There are no budgets for advertising at this level (the midlist), so it's essential authors do what they can.'

Yes. Self-promotion is vital, especially for the small press, as they have NO money for advertising at all. And very little/no distribution through bookshops etc. No advertising (in any form) equals no sales and eventually the small press will go out of business which would be awful as many keep the genres going.

There is nothing wrong with a book/author thread and if you have a new interview or new review, put it up. If a reader doesn't want to read that thread they can avoid it.

I helped Stephen Theaker set up a section on the BFS board called Promote your Projects where authors could give their news/interviews and threads and it has worked very well.
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Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 195.166.117.210
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 03:23 pm:   

Frank - I was about to post the same response to Tony.
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 09-2010
Posted From: 86.168.21.171
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 03:37 pm:   

Nobody seems to have addressed my cleft stick point above.

And is there any evidence that the BFS promotion boards have resulted in increased sales - or less?
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Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 195.166.117.210
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 03:46 pm:   

With respect, Des, IMHO anyone who doesn't self-promote is failing both themselves and their publisher.

I don't see it as a 'cliff stick' at all - probably because putting a couple of miserable buggers off buying your book who probably wouldn't buy it anyway doesn't matter if you make another 100 people aware of that same book.
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 09-2010
Posted From: 86.168.21.171
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 03:54 pm:   

There is no proof either way, Gary, I feel. I am convinced however, in my own mind that what I said about the cleft stick is based on common sense and good instinct and hearsay. I think good work will prevail - as yours has done, Gary, with or without self-promotion. And when you get in the big time, other wheels come into motion, anyway.

Promotion, I'm sure everyone has to agree, is *better* coming from someone other than the author of the book being promoted. That's why I'm doing real-time reviews with the books I buy and love (as well as heightening my own name-profile, hopefully, as a spin-off, a fact that has increasingly dawned on me).
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 99.126.164.88
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 04:06 pm:   

But just curious, all - what is the difference between "promote," and "beat over the head with a rock"?

I'm asking this for a specific reason: this is not, really, the RCMB, a giant shopping mall with customers constantly streaming through from all parts of the town/country/world.

No, we're more like that mall from DAWN OF THE DEAD here - the same sad shambling zombies moaning and stumbling around all day, day upon day, upon day upon day upon day upon day upon day....

So when you promote something once - why, I ask, DO it again? Is the second time going to work, is that the theory? The third? The fourth? Is there a theory in practice here, that the lingerers are so dunderheaded, that it might take 50 poundings of the same nail to finally get them to say, "Oh, right"?

(I'm sure if people aren't purchasing something, it's for that age old and unhappy reason: they're lacking the $ or ; or maybe their reading queues are filled, or crankily demanding.)

At some point here - here, where we're all like these cranky too-familiar family members - it becomes just a shade, tad, itty-bit irksome, when the same thing's been splashed up 100 times.

I mean, if you're not promoting... is it like that urge to run home and put up "drawrings" on the fridge for mummy?

Ramsey's promos, as I've seen them, are always perfect and good models: they appear but once, renewed for significantly new events (like a reprint, an American edition, etc.).

Hey, just saying. And all uttered in the spirit of

And did I mention how utterly preposterous it is, the idea that we actually landed - landed - on the Moon?!?
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Carolinec (Carolinec)
Username: Carolinec

Registered: 06-2009
Posted From: 92.232.199.129
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 04:12 pm:   

Ah but, Craig, this board IS read by quite a few other people - ie. people other than the regular posters. So I can see why someone would want to "bump up" their post again, or mention two or three times that they have a new book out.

What I was saying earlier is, I think, the same as Des is saying - too little promotion of one's work and no-one knows about it, but too much and people get fed up of hearing it over and over again.

As you say, Craig, Ramsey's posts about his new books are the perfect model of how it should be - and it is his board after all!
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 99.126.164.88
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 04:20 pm:   

I'm in agreement with you/Des, Caroline - it's that fine line, I guess, that needs to be walked. I guess you're right too, that others do occasionally peer in the windows, to see those crazy zombies mumbling and stumbling....
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 09-2010
Posted From: 86.168.21.171
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 04:38 pm:   

As an aside, and not changing anything I've said above (that was based on, I feel, common sense and anecdotal evidence) - there is a place for authorial self-promotion, in the traditional sense of personal appearances and readings and launch parties etc.

It is only self-promotion on the internet (even a minimal amount) that *seems* to be counterproductive. I return to my latest theory: that we would be better served carrying out formal reviews of other writers' books you've bought as this avoids what I called above 'the cleft stick' on the internet and this reviewing process is also very enjoyable, fulfilling as well as challenging, as I've found.
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Frank (Frank)
Username: Frank

Registered: 09-2008
Posted From: 85.222.86.21
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 04:38 pm:   

Good work does not always prevail. That's simply not true, Des. How many writers have people recommended to you that you've never heard of before, and then once you'd read them, you wonder why you'd never heard of them before. If 'prevailing' means the aforementioned, then I guess you're correct, but I believe a lot of people who write and want to make a living out of it, or at have the chance to do so, might take issue with that.

Dan Brown 'prevails' because of money. If his books had been published in the SP by small independent publisher, would that mean he's prevailing, or failing to sell?

I've heard this argument before from more embittered sources, which mystifies me, as for all I have seen, there's nobody on RCMB or elsewhere in the press who hasn't benefited in one way or another from some form of self-promotion.

Only the other day I was reading several viewpoints bemoaning self-promotion, in which the main criticism from one author, was swiftly replaced by a breakdown on how one of his novels came about.

It was quite lengthy. Perhaps the two people concerned should have conducted that conversation via personal email, rather than post it publicly on a forum? Is that not also a form of self-promotion.

I have no problem with it in the SP. My main reason is that the writers involved, which is a lot of people here, have put a lot of work into what they do, people who have families, jobs, etc, which in my book equals a lot of time invested, and therefore I think they should be entitled to get themselves noticed. If people don't want to read about it, change threads.

My other reason for having no problem is I would never have known about many many writers if it weren't for self-promotion, and quite frankly, I have sometimes found the level of writing in the SP to be far above what's on offer in a lot of bookshops. That isn't to say there isn't absolute garbage published, but I fail to see how this such a problem, when it's only a click of the mouse, and hey presto, offending article vanishes.
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 09-2010
Posted From: 86.168.21.171
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 04:42 pm:   

Frank, your post has crossed with mine. I've refined my position slightly in that post.
des
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.31.184.78
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 04:44 pm:   

I've been publishing now for seven years and here's what I intuitively feel are the relative merits of sales strategies:

* Reputation of author: probably the most important aspect of all sales
* Promoting as discussed above (by author and publisher): very important - certainly results in a sales 'spike' after announcement of a project
* Outlet visibility: sad though it might be to certain folk, I make a lot of sales through Amazon
* Dealers: crucially important - they take around 50% of direct sales
* Table at conventions: very good opportunity to make sales
* Advertising: never tried it
* Reviews: very few sales from reviews
* Special offers and competitions: a few sales, but hardly worth bothering with
* Awards nominations: brief 'spike' via Amazon
* Unusual events: eg, getting Volk's collection a mention in SFX - brief 'spike' via Amazon
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 09-2010
Posted From: 86.168.21.171
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 04:53 pm:   

Frank, I have sympathy with much of what you say about good work prevailing or not prevailing. But that was always the case. And is perhaps a red herring to the central debate on here. I was mentioning this to someone whose good work *had* prevailed - a career that had built up gradually from 1998 (from what I can see, not through self-promotion necessarily.

Insularism and mass self-promotions on the internet about all sorts of work of varying 'goodness' represent the central problem, meanwhile, as far as I can see.
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Frank (Frank)
Username: Frank

Registered: 09-2008
Posted From: 85.222.86.21
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 05:05 pm:   

Des - you say that good work will prevail with or without self-promotion? Some, yes. But not all. I think the red herring is all this fuss thrown up about how irritating it is. It has also in the past been thrown up in guise of a case of sour grapes. Self-promotion is hardly causing anybody radiation sickness.

Look, some of the things that are self-promoted are crap, and others are quality. In the SP self-promotion may or may not make a difference to sales. It does not alter whether or not the writing is quality, or if it is downright rubbish. People are not idiots. They don't pick up a book and say, 'oh this was self-promoted' it must be great, or vice-versa, 'it must be awful.

It just doesn't work that way.

And, too many writers who've complained about self-promotion need to concentrate on their work instead of CONSTANTLY making bleeding references day in and day out about writers who self-promote. It's getting stale now. Not to mention boring. You'd think James Joyce had been tripped at the first hurdle the way they go on...and on.
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Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.96.253.77
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 05:15 pm:   

Just as a caveat: I don't use the RCMB for self-promotion. Mainly because the only folk on here who actually buy other people's books I'm in contact with on Facebook or Twitter, where I self-promote my arse off.
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 09-2010
Posted From: 86.168.21.171
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 05:18 pm:   

Yes, it is just as irritating to read internet complaints about self-promotion as to read the self-promotion itself. It's just that this is a thread about the subject. And my reading of it - after 25 years heavily in the small press - is that authorial promotions on the internet (of which I am guilty) are generally counter-productive. The authors deserve better.
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Frank (Frank)
Username: Frank

Registered: 09-2008
Posted From: 85.222.86.21
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 05:19 pm:   

I'd actually buy more books from writers here if I could afford it on my minimal Polish wage, but regardless, I want to know who's doing what. I joined RCMB for a lot of reasons, and one of those was to meet like-minded people, people who have a passion for the genre, whether as a fan, writer, artist, etc, or all of them combined. I'm glad people self-promote. I am able to judge whether something is good or not.
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 99.126.164.88
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 05:19 pm:   

That's why not enough people read FINNEGANS WAKE - dammit, Joyce just didn't promote it enough!

Perhaps I'm missing your point, Frank, but people also don't die of radiation-poisoning by reading the complaints of others who are themselves not dying of radiation-poisoning....
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Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.96.253.77
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 05:20 pm:   

Oh, and I'd agree with GF's list - I'd also add that word-of-mouth sells books. Anyone in publishing will tell you that. Bloggers, readers; they all talk about books online, and if you, as an author, share what's being said about your books it can only help to increase your visibility.

The genre is a tiny pond, and its filled with fishes. It's difficult to let anyone know your swimming about in there.
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Frank (Frank)
Username: Frank

Registered: 09-2008
Posted From: 85.222.86.21
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 05:21 pm:   

Des - why is it counter-productive?
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Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.96.253.77
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 05:22 pm:   

I love it when authors don't self-promote. It leaves more room for the rest of us.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.31.184.78
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 05:26 pm:   

Word of mouth and reputation are important, yes, but hard for me to quantify.
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 09-2010
Posted From: 86.168.21.171
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 05:28 pm:   

Why is internet self-promotion counter-productive? I genuinely don't know. Perhaps someone can tell us? Or prove it isn't.
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Weber (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 194.176.105.56
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 05:33 pm:   

I would never have read any of Gary zed's stuff (or Fry's for that matter) if they hadn't plugged it here.

having said that, I don't tend to buy stuff solely on self promotion. I wait till I hear confirmation on quality from trusted peeps first.
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Allybird (Allybird)
Username: Allybird

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 88.104.137.65
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 05:38 pm:   

What is counter-productive is where I've seen people moaning about self-promotion and say they are not doing it...their friends do it for them, and then further down the line they swap roles.
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Frank (Frank)
Username: Frank

Registered: 09-2008
Posted From: 85.222.86.21
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 05:41 pm:   

Zed -

Des - I think this point about self-promotion is actually about something else, too.


Self-promotion wasn't that much of an issue 'round here' until fairly recently. It appears to have become so because certain authors who don't promote are angry that authors who do promote have somehow reaped success in one form or another by daring to encroach upon their 'territory.'
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Frank (Frank)
Username: Frank

Registered: 09-2008
Posted From: 85.222.86.21
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 05:49 pm:   

I mean, Weber just summed it up, he won't buy something on self-promotion alone, or even at all. He's got a brain and can think for himself. Others might or might not.

It's only counter-productive for authors who think they're too talented and perched up way too high for us mere mortals to grasp.

One author promotes, another doesn't. It's not going to sway people's minds over what's quality.

It's quite frankly, condescending to suggest so.

"Hey you, reader, you have no obvious grasp of my brilliance because you read work by authors who have promoted their own work."

Give me a break.

The internet does indeed cause more problems than it solves, but it's here now, and arguing about how we use it as tool for self-promotion seems pretty redundant.

Why cannot people accept that some do it, others don't?

Like I said, if you don't like it, change the thread. You don't sit through hours of TV if you don't like it, you simply switch off or turnover.

Have we become so lazy that the simplicity of that has by-passed some people?
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Frank (Frank)
Username: Frank

Registered: 09-2008
Posted From: 85.222.86.21
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 05:51 pm:   

And if it comes down to a matter of artistic integrity, dignity, I believe it far worse to puppeteer other people to criticize self-promotion and their authors by pretending to have no involvement whatsoever.
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Frank (Frank)
Username: Frank

Registered: 09-2008
Posted From: 85.222.86.21
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 05:55 pm:   

And cowardly.

They spend more time belly-aching than actually writing. It's frigging ridiculous, not to mention like watching a mother constantly retrieving the rattle thrown from a pram...except a baby doesn't know any better...
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Frank (Frank)
Username: Frank

Registered: 09-2008
Posted From: 85.222.86.21
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 06:03 pm:   

And let's see how quickly this thread is linked to somebody else's website/blog, carefully edited, and pulled apart, or generally just used for target practice in the quest to bolster their monstrous ego.
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 09-2010
Posted From: 86.168.21.171
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 06:05 pm:   

Everything I've said above is based on what I see as the cold logic of the situation not the emotion of personalities whom I've seen cross-wiring in the past. Internet self-promotion itself has perhaps led to these bitter politics - whoever is to blame. If it weren't for the ability to self-promote to each other (all of us writers) on the internet we wouldn't be having such debates. Look into yourself and judge. And I do. We're just running around an island, some of it enjoyable, some of it fractious.
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Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.96.253.77
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 06:33 pm:   

Back to Tony's original point - personally, I don't feel that there's much overt self-promotion goes on here at the RCMB. Some of us have been coming here for almost a decade and know each other very well, and I think it's nice to hear about your mates' successes. I experience joy from my mates doing well.
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Allybird (Allybird)
Username: Allybird

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 88.104.137.65
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 06:46 pm:   

'Back to Tony's original point - personally, I don't feel that there's much overt self-promotion goes on here at the RCMB. Some of us have been coming here for almost a decade and know each other very well, and I think it's nice to hear about your mates' successes. I experience joy from my mates doing well.'

Well said. Same here. I visit every day and am happy for authors when I read a good review or interview (it often gives an insight to their work). I want to know what my friends are up to. Some have more success/interviews/reviews/signings/audio readings/online stories/book deals than others and we should be celebrating that with them.
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 09-2010
Posted From: 86.168.21.171
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 07:01 pm:   

Yes, it's good to know how people are doing here - particularly those we've met face to face. That's human nature. But this thread is a debating-point that presumably excludes such consideration with regard to the optimum ways of best serving both the writer and the reader outside of the politics of our circle.
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Allybird (Allybird)
Username: Allybird

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 88.104.137.65
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 07:13 pm:   

'But this thread is a debating-point that presumably excludes such consideration with regard to the optimum ways of best serving both the writer and the reader outside of the politics of our circle.'

In that case let the writers/readers who come here choose what thread they want to read. They usually are clearly signposted.
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 09-2010
Posted From: 86.168.21.171
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 07:25 pm:   

Fair enough. Allyson, if you feel that is sufficient. My experience is that some people - whether justified or unjustified - report being fed up with simply seeing the same subject-headed thread being bumped up.
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Allybird (Allybird)
Username: Allybird

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 88.104.137.65
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 08:15 pm:   

Well, Des. If the thread has new interviews/new reviews/news of signings/readings at bookshops/audio readings/online stories etc some people like to know about that.
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Frank (Frank)
Username: Frank

Registered: 09-2008
Posted From: 85.222.86.21
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 08:16 pm:   

Fed up, reported, of what? It's hardly traumatic.
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Carolinec (Carolinec)
Username: Carolinec

Registered: 06-2009
Posted From: 92.232.199.129
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 08:28 pm:   

Frank - some people DO say they're fed up of seeing what they consider to be over-promotion of someone's work. But it's their perogative to feel that way - some people don't mind self-promotion, and some do.

I don't think Des is saying *he's* fed up of seeing this happen - he's just posing a question for debate. There's no need for you to get annoyed about it - it's simply a debate about the relative merits of promoting one's work in the small presses. There are arguments for and against, that's all.
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.143.134.154
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 08:40 pm:   

Good God - must we only now talk of traumatic things?
My quibble was with people *only coming on here to promote*. It's like a table with people having a nice chat and someone only talking about work, or what they sell in their shop, or when they want something from you. If people like that then fair enough, but I know I don't. But somebody recently - and this is what partly triggered this thread off in some ways - went and announced their birthday or something on their plug thread. It just felt a bit manipulative, and I'm sorry if it wasn't meant that way, but it's really how it looked.
Again, if folk like being manipulated, then all well and good. But news of books coming out can be as welcome and pleasant as a snowflake, but lots of snowflakes a stifling drift can make.
(BTW it feels like people had issues with things other than what I actually said. I thought my post was pretty fair and more like a question than some traumatising assault.)
For the record, I can only afford to spend about 2 a time on my books and have to shop for them carefully, and always second hand, so bully for any folk who can afford to buy each other's stuff.
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.143.134.154
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 08:42 pm:   

Caroline; it seems some people have been so insanely incensed by my post they can't read the others properly. I've done it before myself, it's just the red mist. They'll be ok soon, I suppose.
:-(
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Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.96.253.77
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 08:43 pm:   

>>My quibble was with people *only coming on here to promote*.<<

Ah, I see - yes, I agree that's a bit crappy. Sorry, Tony, I misunderstood your point. I stand corrected.

I simply ignore those kinds of posts, to be honest, so they don't really bother me.
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.143.134.154
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 08:45 pm:   

Phew! Thanks, Zed!
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.143.134.154
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 08:47 pm:   

I have to say, I'm sorry I can't afford folk here's stuff...
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.143.134.154
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 08:48 pm:   

I hope Frank now feels like the guy who said he was gay on the aeroplane in Almost Famous...
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Carolinec (Carolinec)
Username: Carolinec

Registered: 06-2009
Posted From: 92.232.199.129
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 08:53 pm:   

Tony - don't worry, I think it was probably me who took your argument one stage further in the first place by saying there were arguments for and against self promotion. I was treating it as a discussion/debating point too.

As I see it, if people don't like threads where writers self-promote then they can simply ignore it, as I said above. If you want to, read it; if you don't, don't. Simple. Without people promoting their work, no-one will know about it, no-one will buy or read it. Leading, ultimately, to no small press - which would be a disaster IMO.

And, again as I said above, as a reader I *like* to be informed of what people are doing. In fact, along with chatting away to you all, that's one of the reason I come on these kinds of discussion boards.
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 99.126.164.88
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 09:47 pm:   

I'll be blunt: I've never mentioned anyone by name, so if I want to come on here and bitch and moan about what I perceive about over-self-promotion, too bad for you. And if you want to complain back to me about it, too bad for me. Waaah. I don't like it. It's not going to stop. So what if I don't like it? It's not my board, and I can go suck a fig. Oh well. It's not a traumatic thing by any means, it's just annoying. Like a gnat can be annoying. But then, I'm probably annoying too. And so the world goes round and round and round....

I actually DON'T complain, and neither does Tony, or anyone else really from what I've seen. It came up in here as a thread, a nice forum to, just once, vent. It's nice to vent. I know it's not so nice to actually know what other people might be thinking, but hey - to paraphrase our President Harry Truman: You want a fantasy? Go read Tolkien.
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Frank (Frank)
Username: Frank

Registered: 09-2008
Posted From: 85.222.86.21
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 11:10 pm:   

Tony - your reference to Almost Famous escapes me, which is probably a good thing. So, no, I won't be feeling in anyway near to what you might wish me to feel.

Tony/Craig - I'm not against anybody speaking their mind, which is what I'm doing. The latter half of the thread is not actually concerned with either of you, though my 'traumatic' part of the statement is, and anybody else who feels it's a big deal.

The latter half is actually concerned with other matters related self-promotion. Des knows what I mean. I don't see the point of pussy-footing around and pretending that there's not more to it than there is. That's been done to high heaven and back.

And it's not the red mist, no matter what it might read like.
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Frank (Frank)
Username: Frank

Registered: 09-2008
Posted From: 85.222.86.21
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 11:23 pm:   

Tony - and for the record, for all of my faults, I don't have the pomp and swagger to say this to the certain members of the board:'I'm really talking about certain threads that keep coming up - won't mention any names - where it's obvious someone is just posting on it to keep their book in our consciousness. It drives me shit-mad.'

Nor this, to somebody who probably feels as if they aren't welcome:Ha! You not only blew your own trumpet but we didn't know who it was blowing it!
Intros before ads? You'll get popped into Ramsey's Amazing Rubbish thread this way...
;)

I reckon we should have a 'plug' section for this board. Anyone looking for stuff to buy can go there.
Sorry to be grouchy, Robert... :-(

What's with this 'we' business, it gives Robert the impression we are all standing around admonishing him for unruly behaviour.
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Huw (Huw)
Username: Huw

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 220.138.163.49
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 11:34 pm:   

I think Tony, Craig and Des have made some excellent points.
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Stephen Theaker (Stephen_theaker)
Username: Stephen_theaker

Registered: 12-2009
Posted From: 92.232.184.206
Posted on Friday, March 04, 2011 - 11:35 pm:   

There's no problem with letting people know you have a new book out, the question is really one of extent, which is a matter of netiquette; the correct answer depends on the particular online community that a writer is interacting with.

On the BFS forum, the committee made a conscious decision to open a "pimp your projects" board on the forum, after the pattern of the Whispers of Wickedness forum, because it seemed like a good way to encourage more visitors (it was). Similarly Andy Cox has encouraged people in the past to start promotional threads on the TTA forums. Shocklines is pretty much all-promo nowadays.

Other boards are different: this board says that it's not an advertising area for anyone but Ramsey, and on the Vault of Evil self-promo is very much frowned on. Goodreads is keen to help authors promote themselves, but to do it in polite, healthy ways, not by treating its users as a captive audience.

Twitter and Facebook are slightly different again, in that the expectations of the community depends entirely on who you're connected with. But in both cases people can easily opt out from your posts if they find them too annoying. That's not the case in most forums.

The real problem with self-promotional posts is not the "self" part, it's the "promotional". No one likes to be subjected to adverts in the middle of a conversation, and people who persistently advertise to a community, especially if they don't contribute to the conversation, are likely to find themselves becoming unpopular.

What frustrates me is when (as happens an awful lot on Goodreads and Amazon) the self-published or micro press writer argues that their lack of other opportunities to promote themselves gives them the right to be rude, a right to impose, a right to bore. It doesn't. They don't *need* to promote their books; they want to.

Writers may choose to simply ignore the preferences of the communities they interact with, of course, if they think that's the best way to sell books, but in that case they just have to take their lumps.

I will note though that, as with any "infraction", women seem to me much more likely to get it in the neck for self-promotion than men. And secondly that a writer who becomes a bit annoying on a forum is just that, a bit annoying. It's hardly cause for scathing condemnation. If it gets too bad, contact the moderator; keeping an eye on things like that is part of their job.
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Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.96.253.77
Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2011 - 09:40 am:   

Meta-promotion: self-promoting by writing a blog about self-promoting and linking it on a thread about self-promoting:

http://darkcentralstation.com/?p=1317

I'm dead clever, me.
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 91.110.244.98
Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2011 - 10:51 am:   

Given the difficulty of getting any level of sales in the small press, and the difficulty of making books visible and getting the details out there, some level of self-publicity seems perfectly reasonable to me. What can be more problematic is self-advocacy, which is rarely a conscious policy with any writer, more a reaction to pressure though I gather many students are taught in university creative writing courses that it is something they should do. In the small press self-advocacy tends to be defensive rather than proactive. It is always problematic not 'wrong' but difficult. Sometimes the very people who condemn it also engage in it, and seem to be in denial about that.

Another thing to keep in mind is that we all tend to bring certain habits and rituals to the RCMB, whether it's reviewing a film, denying the reality of the moon landing, talking about what a bad weekend we've had, telling bad jokes, riffing on literary theory, half-heartedly chatting up other RCMB members, or promoting our scrawny creative efforts. We do what we feel compelled to do in the knowledge that we are among friends, and nobody will react badly if our own intentions are not hostile. That's a tacit rule of the board, and should not be broken without good reason.

Chill, O my little brothers and sisters.

And Zed, are you subtly positioning 'Dead Clever' as the title of your next novel?
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 09-2010
Posted From: 81.155.19.134
Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2011 - 10:54 am:   

And Zed, are you subtly positioning 'Dead Clever' as the title of your next novel?

==================

If anything at all comes from this thread, I hope it's that as the title of Zed's next book. :-)
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Frank (Frank)
Username: Frank

Registered: 09-2008
Posted From: 85.222.86.21
Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2011 - 11:05 am:   

My main problem is that I don't honestly feel that any writers on RCMB have posted that regularly for it to feel like an advertising blitzkrieg. I can't think of anybody who's posted that often.
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Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.96.253.77
Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2011 - 11:08 am:   

>>And Zed, are you subtly positioning 'Dead Clever' as the title of your next novel?<<

Hahahahahahaha....(hang on; that's fucking brilliant)
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 91.110.244.98
Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2011 - 11:11 am:   

Indeed. We had a phase a few years ago when it was a running joke several new threads each day devoted to it and that ran its course. Measured and appropriate publicity is something that those of us who try and get work into print all strive for.
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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 212.219.233.223
Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2011 - 11:12 am:   

One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is the fact that in some publishing contracts it specifies that the author must self-promote: if the author is felt to be hindering sales by not promoting the book, royalties can be withheld. That's a clause I'm seeing more often these days.
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 91.110.244.98
Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2011 - 11:12 am:   

Sorry Zed, you got in between there. As with me and Gary the other night.
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 91.110.244.98
Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2011 - 11:16 am:   

'One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is the fact that in some publishing contracts it specifies that the author must self-promote: if the author is felt to be hindering sales by not promoting the book, royalties can be withheld. That's a clause I'm seeing more often these days.'

Rhys, I hope that's just an attempt to ensure that the author doesn't just flatly refuse to engage in interviews, festivals, readings etc when the publisher sets them up. I hope it's not meant to compel the author to become their own full-time marketer. But it could be.
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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 212.219.233.223
Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2011 - 11:26 am:   

Joel: when I was younger, I wanted to be like Thomas Pynchon. No photographs, no interviews, no readings, no public appearances: just an invisible but omnipotent background presence worthy of an ultrasmart demigod of literature.

But the Pynchon option is no longer available to writers, not matter how talented they are. Whoring ourselves is the only permissable course of action. Soon I will display photos of myself as a whore, with lipstick, stockings and whatnots... Watch this space for a forthcoming link!
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Simon Bestwick (Simon_b)
Username: Simon_b

Registered: 10-2008
Posted From: 86.24.209.217
Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2011 - 11:36 am:   

>>>>Soon I will display photos of myself as a whore, with lipstick, stockings and whatnots... Watch this space for a forthcoming link!<<<<<

Rhys- you've just evoked a visual image more certain to disturb and unsettle the reader than anything I've ever written or am likely to.

'I'll break my staff, bury it certain fathoms in the earth, and deeper than e'er did plummet sound, I'll drown my book.'

>Sob<

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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 212.219.233.223
Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2011 - 11:43 am:   

I want to promote The Brothel Creeper, Simon, and there are prostitutes in that book. Ergo: I will dress as a prostitute!

Let's make self-promotion entertaining, considering that we are contracted to do it... Let's prance, caper and cavort! With photographs!

By the way, just because I'm going to dress as a prostitute doesn't necessarily mean that I'll allow cock meat to jab my crack. Thought I should clear that up...
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Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.96.253.77
Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2011 - 12:24 pm:   

Fucking hell,Rhys - I just laughed out loud at that.
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Simon Bestwick (Simon_b)
Username: Simon_b

Registered: 10-2008
Posted From: 86.24.209.217
Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2011 - 12:30 pm:   

Oh aye, it's a good plan. And thanks for clearing your crack up.



So to speak.
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Allybird (Allybird)
Username: Allybird

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 88.104.137.65
Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2011 - 12:37 pm:   

'Let's make self-promotion entertaining, considering that we are contracted to do it... Let's prance, caper and cavort! With photographs!'

Post the photos!
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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 212.219.233.223
Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2011 - 12:39 pm:   

I will when I have them!
It's all about getting the exposure right...
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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 212.219.233.223
Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2011 - 12:40 pm:   

Two old women in the park when a naked man runs past.

One of the old women had a stroke.

The other wasn't quick enough...
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 09-2010
Posted From: 81.155.19.134
Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2011 - 12:52 pm:   

What happens if you're dead if you want to self-promote? I'm thinking ahead till when I'm not a thinking head.
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 91.110.206.60
Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2011 - 03:30 pm:   

Des I think you'd need to use a social networking medium.
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 09-2010
Posted From: 81.155.19.134
Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2011 - 03:45 pm:   

I'm brighter than that, Joel. You won't catch me dead on facebook! I know your're not on it, too.

This thread is headed Plugs for Published Stuff. Well, here's one:

The Horror Anthology of Horror Anthologies - are you eligible to submit some stuff to be published in it? It's going be one of those books...
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Huw (Huw)
Username: Huw

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 61.216.47.95
Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2011 - 05:42 pm:   

"Des - I think you'd need to use a social networking medium."

Good one, Joel! Imagine if there were a Facebook type place where the dead could interact... Deadbook? Mycorpse? Imagine being haunted by someone on Facebook. Not a bad idea for a story, actually!
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 91.110.252.55
Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2011 - 06:28 pm:   

The profile would have to be amended to include ontological status as well as relationship status. Though the latter could be taken for granted as 'It's complicated'.
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Hubert (Hubert)
Username: Hubert

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 178.118.79.219
Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2011 - 06:42 pm:   

Narrator falls in love with someone (s)he gets to know via Facebook. As the story progresses it transpires that the new love has actually been dead for a number of days/weeks/months/years (pick your choice). By then, however, an encounter has been arranged and it's much too late to do anything about it.
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Hubert (Hubert)
Username: Hubert

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 178.118.79.219
Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2011 - 06:48 pm:   

Shades of "Reply Guaranteed", perhaps. Richard Matheson's "Night Call" comes to mind, too.
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Huw (Huw)
Username: Huw

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 220.138.161.143
Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2011 - 09:03 pm:   

Not to mention Aickman's 'Your Tiny Hand is Frozen' (with updated technology).

I can't help thinking of the scene in Kiyoshi Kurosawa's Kairo, in which images of the dead peer from the computer screen, accompanied by the words 'would you like to meet a ghost?'.
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Hubert (Hubert)
Username: Hubert

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 178.118.79.219
Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2011 - 09:15 pm:   

Great film, very nightmarish in a Campbellian sense towards the end. Difficult to locate over here, as are now (sadly) most Asian 'horror' films.

I'm going to see CONFESSIONS in Brughes in a week or two. It's one of the films shown on the 'alternative' circuit.
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Huw (Huw)
Username: Huw

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 220.138.161.143
Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2011 - 09:34 pm:   

Hubert, I'll be interested to hear what you thought of Confessions. I watched it on DVD a couple of weeks ago and was disappointed.
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Carolinec (Carolinec)
Username: Carolinec

Registered: 06-2009
Posted From: 92.232.199.129
Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2011 - 09:45 pm:   

Joel said: "we all tend to bring certain habits and rituals to the RCMB, whether it's ... half-heartedly chatting up other RCMB members ..."

Well, really! I come back on here after an enjoyable day at a Doctor Who convention only to find that Joel has insulted me by saying that I HALF-HEARTEDLY chat up other RCMB members. Half-heartedly, indeed! I put my heart and soul into chatting you all up, I can assure you.
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Carolinec (Carolinec)
Username: Carolinec

Registered: 06-2009
Posted From: 92.232.199.129
Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2011 - 09:47 pm:   

Only joking, by the way. I'm not really insulted, Joel.
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Degsy (Degsy)
Username: Degsy

Registered: 08-2010
Posted From: 86.134.48.64
Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2011 - 10:09 pm:   

I've never really understood the Pavlovian response some people have to self-promotion.

Admittedly, there is sometimes an 'etiquette' breach where an individual only posts self-promotion threads on a forum without ever contributing anything else to the wider community, but I have a left-button on my mouse the same as every other user does, and I don't have to read these posts if I choose not to.

Since it kicked-off on the Vault a few years ago this debate is now starting to sound like a stuck record. Oh so very tedious.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.31.184.78
Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2011 - 08:19 am:   

I think self-promotion is terrible and should not be tolerated.

Gary Fry, author of The House of Canted Steps, World Wide Web and Other Lovecraftian Upgrades, Sanity and Other Delusions, The Impelled and Other Head Trips, Mindful of Phantoms, Feral Companions, Abolisher of Roses, Shades of Nothingness (forthcoming)
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 09-2010
Posted From: 81.155.19.134
Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2011 - 09:20 am:   

Shades of Nothingness (forthcoming)
================

There's a story called 'Shades of Emptiness' in my out of print collection, 'Weirdmonger' (Prime 2003). That book never really took off, I guess. Not now able to self-promote it, I shall here self-immolate it.
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Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.96.253.77
Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2011 - 11:54 am:   

Re-release it on Kindle, Des. ;-)
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 09-2010
Posted From: 81.155.19.134
Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2011 - 12:29 pm:   

A Kindle in the Wind.
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Hubert (Hubert)
Username: Hubert

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 178.118.79.219
Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2011 - 12:58 pm:   

Lovecraft's The Outsider took decennia to sell out, Des. And it only had a print run of 1268 copies. So you're in good company.
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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 212.219.233.223
Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2011 - 12:59 pm:   

How many people here type their own name into Google every day?

I do it every day, which means I've done it about 65 times this year already. How about you?
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 09-2010
Posted From: 81.155.19.134
Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2011 - 01:18 pm:   

I have a 'favourite' click on my browser bar which quickly gives the latest 24 hours links for 'Nemonymous', which seems to cover a multitude of sins connected with my work.
Infrequently I click the 24 hours 'df lewis' or 'weirdmonger' but the 'nemonymous' one seems to be sufficient on a daily basis to alert me to any necessary business-sensitive items connected with my publishing world.
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Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.96.253.77
Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2011 - 01:38 pm:   

Rhys - I have Goodle alerts set up, so I don't need to. ;-)
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 91.110.215.179
Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2011 - 01:42 pm:   

Rhys, I do that about once a fortnight, to look for new reviews. Rarely with any success. The whole problem with Google results is that Google ratings are driven by links and keywords, so the sites that come up first are always those that have had links to them posted on lots of related sites. The links game ensures that Google searches for genre stuff very rarely pick up any reviews outside the online version of the small press, even when these are much higher-profile in non-internet terms.

A review on some genre website that has reciprocal links with 27 other genre websites will occupy (via those links) 7 or 8 of the top 10 rankings in a Google search, whereas a review in the Guardian or the Times will rank about number 73 and you'll have to be very determined to find it.

Keywords help to a lesser extent if your book's title includes 'Zombie' or 'Vampire' its Google rating will be considerably higher. This explains the marketing logic behind many commercial book titles in the genre.
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Allybird (Allybird)
Username: Allybird

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 88.104.137.65
Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2011 - 01:57 pm:   

'Rhys - I have Goodle alerts set up, so I don't need to. ;-)'

So do I and also get links to what the American reporter of them same name is up to...she has way more news than me.
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Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.96.253.77
Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2011 - 03:38 pm:   

Joel - the day The Guardian review of "Prety Little Dead Things" went live I had about 50 Google Alert messages, informing me not only of the review itself but all the blogs, etc, that had linked it - it's a useful tool.
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 91.110.183.116
Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2011 - 10:06 pm:   

Zed, a further problem I have with search engines and it doesn't happen to everyone is that my name crops up more frequently online as a place name than it does in relation to me. Joel Lane is a street in Hyde, Greater Manchester. I was photographed there once. It's a busy street with lots of traffic going both ways. Not that that is relevant.
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Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.96.253.77
Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2011 - 10:08 pm:   

According to Google, I'm a house in America, a fell runner, an Australian Vietnam veteran and agent-orange-awareness campaigner (I sometimes get emails meant for this guy, too), and I have a son who's a professional digeridoo player.

The internet is sentient, and it's insane.
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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 212.219.233.223
Posted on Monday, March 07, 2011 - 11:33 am:   

> Joel Lane is a street in Hyde, Greater Manchester. I was photographed there once. It's a busy street with lots of traffic going both ways...

Tee hee!

I bet Tim Lebbon has typed his own name into Google 25,345,650 times this year... Just my estimate; accuracy is difficult in such calculations.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.23.57.54
Posted on Monday, March 07, 2011 - 12:34 pm:   

Well, if he has, he'll soon pick up this message. :<0
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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 212.219.233.223
Posted on Monday, March 07, 2011 - 12:50 pm:   

Ha! It's not necessarily an insult against Tim though... Think about it. I might simply be praising the dexterity of his fingers...
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.143.134.154
Posted on Tuesday, March 08, 2011 - 10:20 am:   

The biggest advert for any writer on this board for me is to like the things they say and talk about.
I do think plugs would be actually handier on an enclosed section of the board - they wouldn't get lost.
But then, it seems no-one goes to these 'enclosed sections'.
:-(
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.143.134.154
Posted on Tuesday, March 08, 2011 - 10:22 am:   

I find my favourite books when I 'go looking' so to speak. I need to 'see' my books first.
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.143.134.154
Posted on Tuesday, March 08, 2011 - 10:23 am:   

Maybe a plug section could act like that - a mini store.
Sorry - should have put all these comments together!
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.143.134.154
Posted on Tuesday, March 08, 2011 - 10:27 am:   

And Des - yes, we must all plug the books we've enjoyed reading. Exactly. It's the chopsticks in hell story all over again. (You know, in Heaven and Hell they have to eat with these really long chopsticks - in Hell they starve because they try to feed themselves, in Heaven they don't because they feed each other etc)
('Couldn't they just use their hands?' - Weber
)
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Weber (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 194.176.105.56
Posted on Tuesday, March 08, 2011 - 10:50 am:   

Am I that predictable?

Don't answer that.
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.143.134.154
Posted on Tuesday, March 08, 2011 - 10:52 am:   

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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 09-2010
Posted From: 81.155.19.134
Posted on Tuesday, March 08, 2011 - 10:52 am:   

You know, in Heaven and Hell they have to eat with these really long chopsticks - in Hell they starve because they try to feed themselves, in Heaven they don't because they feed each other etc
=================================

I've not heard that before, Tony. Thanks.
des
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.143.134.154
Posted on Tuesday, March 08, 2011 - 11:05 am:   

My missus thinks it's great. It's a corny thing but oddly useful and spot on.
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Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey)
Username: Ramsey

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 195.93.21.68
Posted on Tuesday, March 08, 2011 - 12:02 pm:   

"Ha! It's not necessarily an insult against Tim though... Think about it. I might simply be praising the dexterity of his fingers..."

Who knows? All I need to say is that Tim deserves his success.
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Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 195.166.117.210
Posted on Tuesday, March 08, 2011 - 12:20 pm:   

He certainly does - one of my favourite genre writers, and a true gent.
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Jonathan (Jonathan)
Username: Jonathan

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 91.143.178.131
Posted on Tuesday, March 08, 2011 - 01:13 pm:   

Seconded. Or rather, thirded. Tim is a superb writer. Pleased that a short story of his will be appearing in my next anthology.
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Allybird (Allybird)
Username: Allybird

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 88.104.137.65
Posted on Tuesday, March 08, 2011 - 02:31 pm:   

'The biggest advert for any writer on this board for me is to like the things they say and talk about.


Tony. As Gary F has pointed out on another thread, and I would say, if there is a serious/interesting thread that people want to respond to on this board that thread is sometimes transferred to other forums (blogs especially)...where we can't respond or might not wish to.

...' has to be admitted that news travels fast in the small press, and that a comment made in Forum A can be all over Forums B, C and D (and often misinterpreted when divorced of context) before you can say "impolitic lapse of judgement.'
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Tuesday, March 08, 2011 - 04:33 pm:   

I'm with Tony on this issue - as with so many others.

There is a place for advertising and a place for critiquing and sharing enthusiasm for works and authors/filmmakers/musicians/etc. The only promotion I am interested in comes from reading the opinions of those I respect on works that they think may interest me.

I too am often put off by pushy self-promotion.
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Huw (Huw)
Username: Huw

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 61.216.204.66
Posted on Tuesday, March 08, 2011 - 05:02 pm:   

Me too, Stevie. I'm all for hearing about new books by members here, and I think it's necessary for small press writers to announce these things. However, I think it's also true that a little restraint goes a long way, and a lack of it can end up alienating potential customers.
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Weber (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 194.176.105.56
Posted on Tuesday, March 08, 2011 - 05:43 pm:   

But all the big authors are heavily int self promotion as well - except they do it large scale...

What do you think they're doing on those chat shows or when they come to your town to do a signing? I don't hear anyone complaining about pushy self-promotion there...
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.132.174.32
Posted on Tuesday, March 08, 2011 - 05:55 pm:   

I suppose we expect it there, and they do chat about other things. And when a book comes out by one of them, or a film, it figures that you'd *want* to see them on a chat show.
I think.
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.132.174.32
Posted on Tuesday, March 08, 2011 - 05:56 pm:   

And like I said, seeing a thread about a release is ok, but seeing it pop up and pop up again just feels pushy. I resist.

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