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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 09-2010
Posted From: 86.165.39.12
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 01:56 pm:   

This is my own personal view below,including most of my contributions to Zed's facebook yesterday:
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Many don’t find writing fiction a particularly mystical or magical experience but more a job of work…

But the TV series LOST, for example, and King’s huge DARK TOWER series of novels, I sense, are not pre-planned but continually absorb a certain amount of binding ‘power’ from who knows what forces out there.

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And I found a lot of stuff ostensibly unintended by the authors when real-time reviiewing their work, or things they often *say* were unintended. I think writing may be mystical whether the author recognises it or not?

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A contrary view here on Gary McMahon’s blog:
http://www.garymcmahon.com/2011/03/shattering-myth.html

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It is, for me, important not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Hard work, yes, when coupled with the magical experience of writing fiction is possibly the optimum…? Rather than wholly denying the magical side….

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Also some readers may feel short-changed (at least subconsciously) if they are deliberately told that any author’s work was written with no magical or mystical or transcendent elements at work but was built as a workmanlike cabinet instead.

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I think Gary McMahon’s blog (linked above) perhaps robs the author of mystique. A mystique that helps with enjoyment or suspension of disbelief. It may be a real mystique, it may not be. But I feel that a fiction author should at least try to believe in his or her own mystique not cabinetise it. It’s hard work, too.

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Magic in the writing process and magic (often a different magic) in the reading process are not mutually exclusive. I don’t disagree with the cabinet motif – it’s just that it could appear to destroy the mystique of the author or the mystique of the fiction in some readers’s eyes by association with workmanlike utility objects. I know that was not Gary’s intention…

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Gary linked putting up a shelf wth making the cabinet with screws on his blog. My image was of a MFI flatpack. Also Gary categorically said on his blog article: “Writing isn’t a transcendental, mystical experience” when it can be exactly that based on anecdotal evidence over the centuries. Nobody’s denying that it can also be hard work.

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I felt Gary’s blog did need challenging as it appeared categorically to rob all authors (not only himself) of this potential valuable mystique or magical power (in the blog’s first sentence). And in its ‘shattering the myth’ cri de guerre. (Meanwhile, hard work as a writer is not even a debate. That’s a truism, I feel, i.e. that it is most definitely hard work.)

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I am not religious. But to say something has ‘magic’ takes into account all the indefinable things humans don’t understand. For me, ‘Talent’ embodies or emminds all those things, things you can see and measure, and things you can’t see or measure.
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Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 195.166.117.210
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 02:01 pm:   

You can't let this one lie, can you, Des?
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 09-2010
Posted From: 86.165.39.12
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 02:03 pm:   

I find it a fascinating topic and I hope others will, too. I, of course, respect your opinion, Zed, and thank you for a provocative blog article.
des
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Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 195.166.117.210
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 02:05 pm:   

And I respect yours, Des.
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Weber (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 194.176.105.56
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 02:07 pm:   

Actually, the TV series LOST was preplanned to a very large extent. When they finished season 3 JJ Abrams stated categorically that he knew exactly where the story was going, exactly what the answers were to all the questions and that, barring the death in real life of one of the major stars, all important events in the last 3 series were already set in stone. He announced that there would be 3 more series each of 15 episodes (which was shuffled around a bit because of the writer's strike) and that the details were held in a bank vault in case he died himself...

It's a damned shame we won't see anything like it on TV again, where no answers are given to the mystery for such a long time...
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 213.122.108.107
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 02:20 pm:   

I like this subject, but have to go right now.
In short, this might be why I can often only read dead authors - mystique is guaranteed, then.
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Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 195.166.117.210
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 02:22 pm:   

It's easy to make up stories, but writing them down is hard graft.
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Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey)
Username: Ramsey

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 195.93.21.68
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 02:34 pm:   

I don't know how relevant this is, but I always like to be surprised by what I'm writing - to write something I didn't know I was going to write until I reach it. I take it to mean my subconscious is engaged.
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Weber (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 194.176.105.56
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 02:35 pm:   

I know. I'm stuck on the midsection of this story I'm writing at the moment. I can't get the meeting of the two groups of characters to quite gel properly.

Normally I start writing and i know exactly where the story is going - often the last line is the first line that I know for certain... But the best writing IMHO that I've ever done was a play of mine where the characters seemed to take over the process for me. I'd known what was due to happen two thirds of the way through and had built slowly up to that but had no idea what would happen afterwards. It was also the first and only time I've been nervous for the characters I was writing, knowing what what I was just about to do... but I had no idea what the aftermath would be.

I didn't need to worry. After I wrote the planned event suddenly the characters started talking in my skull and it was as much as I could do to to keep up with them and write what they were telling me.

When I read over it the next day (I finished at 4am) I didn't remember writing some of it, but I thought then (and still do think) that it was some of the best and most honest writing I've managed.
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Weber (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 194.176.105.56
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 02:35 pm:   

crossed posts with t'landlord there
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John Forth (John)
Username: John

Registered: 05-2008
Posted From: 217.20.16.180
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 02:55 pm:   

I'm afraid I don't see much 'magic' in it. Nor do I expect authors to be some untouchable, mysterious force at the centre of their own universe.

However, I suspect it's just a matter of how one understands the term. Where Des sees magic, I just see the natural processing of one's environment and the events around you, shaped either consciously or unconsciously. For me, it's more akin to filing - the act of putting things in order. Of course, from time to time, something unclassifiable will come along which refuses to be categorised - and that's where the story comes from.

Difficult to explain really, but that's my take on the 'imagination' part of writing.

As for the actual, physical writing itself - that's the grunt work, the crafting. That's where the cabinet-maker comes in.

But I appreciate that it's different for everyone.
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Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 195.166.117.210
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 02:59 pm:   

Des's MFI flatpack analogy is way off the mark - I'm talking about a master cabinet maker here, spending hours, using love and perseverance and care as he works the wood into a cabinet.

The subconscious isn't magic - when characters "take over" the story, it's our hard work that's brought that side of the imagination into play. Not magic. The act of writing, for me, is earthy and real and solid, not spiritual. The end result, however, is taken out of our hands and readers can call it spiritual if they like.
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 09-2010
Posted From: 86.165.39.12
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 03:28 pm:   

Zed, you spoke of putting up a shelf in the same breath as the cabinet and its screws and screwdriver. What is any ordinary reader meant to imagine there.

I don't think any of us can prove or deny 'spirituality' for certain. All I know is that I am not religious, but I do believe in things I don't understand.
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Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 195.166.117.210
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 03:30 pm:   

Imagine what you will, Des...let the magic happen.

I don't believe in anything. Even myself.
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 09-2010
Posted From: 86.165.39.12
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 03:35 pm:   

All I know is - Gary McMahon's work is far better than its own author's attempt at an analogy for it. Far better and more magical. :-)
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 09-2010
Posted From: 86.165.39.12
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 03:37 pm:   

BTW, Gary, did you put up the fence that serves as background to your blog?
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Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 195.166.117.210
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 03:38 pm:   

Indeed I did - with my own pretty little hands.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 129.11.76.215
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 04:49 pm:   

I think what Zed I saying is that there's a materialist basis for writing, that it's grounded in existential experience, and that any "mystical" dimension it ostensibly has arises from that swirling pool of memories, impressions, intuitions, imaginary fancy, etc. All quite rich and mysterious, yes, but ultimately just products of being thrown into bodily experience and having to make the best of it all one can. Writing is an attempt to provide indices of innumerable enigmas.

I really like that Chinese saying about deriving wonder from looking at your hand - surely the most common sight of all - and simply marvelling at it. Endlessly.

Mysticism can be quotidian, in that sense.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 129.11.76.215
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 04:54 pm:   

As a postscript: in a Sartrean sense, all art is a for-itself clumsily seeking expression as an in-itself. Expression is necessarily craftsman-like. So the analogy with a cabinet maker is apt. But how we long to commune with angels . . .

I think Flaubert said it best: "Language is a cracked kettle on which we beat out tunes for bears to dance to, while all the time we long to move the stars to pity.”
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 09-2010
Posted From: 86.165.39.12
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 05:19 pm:   

Indeed, Gary. A nice cabinet, though, not one that comes witha shelf and screws. :-)


Meanwhile, another philosophical argument (not one I necessarily believe): The best reader is the one who thinks your work is the work of a genius or has mystique or demonstrates the mystique of the power behind the book. This is the type of reader who will keep reading your books because mystique (not a cabinet) is probably the best path to your fiction being or at least seeming magical or disposed most readily towards suspension of disbelief. So, as an author, don't short-change yourself. It's possible you have mystique. It's possible you may not have mystique. Not only you, but your work, too. It's possible that mystique itself exists or does not exist. Sooooo... as with Plato's Wager, you surely know which options to demonstrate - or hopefully believe in or at least cynically pretend to possess - out of all those choices. :-)
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Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch)
Username: Mark_lynch

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 217.171.129.75
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 05:31 pm:   

Hmm. Plenty of master cabinet-makers may very well perceive beauty and mysticism in their art.

I like Arthur C Clarke's comment, that was typical of his fiction's own dichotomies. Although he preplanned his work, he said that he could never remember writing it afterwards and felt as though someone else was doing it. (Snide comments about Gentry Lee to yourselves, please; he tried.)

If I were smart enough to know what I was doing when I scribble something out, then I doubt I'd be dumb enough to be doing it.

For me, writing fiction is like walking through dense woodland in thick fog, only realising there was a path and beautiful views along the way when I get to the end. The second draft's about enjoying the views.

Mystical? Dunno. But I prefer, in the most part, writers whose fiction comes from a part of themselves they themselves may not even recognise.
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 09-2010
Posted From: 86.165.39.12
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 05:31 pm:   

For example, when I read DIFFERENT SKINS by Gary a few months ago (and when I real-time reviewed it), I felt it was tapping into things that the author himself didn't understand but had the genius to tap into. A mystique that was successfully conveyed against the grain. This was its spirituality, its magic. Gary cannot persuade me otherwise. His work is stronger than him.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 129.11.76.215
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 05:32 pm:   

Another philosophical aspect to this, and one that Zed touched upon above: how much of one's present so-called "subconscious" ability is actually the product of deliberate reflections in the past - that is, of wrestling quite consciously with the kind of problems Weber details above? Eventually, the solutions we find become part of our pre-reflective/subconscious abilities and feel like magic, despite having quite a mechanical origin. (In fact, our solutions to these problems, and the help we seek along the way [learning from other authors, etc] may well define the writer we become.)

Yes, this might refer to lived experience, too. Those insights and the surprising acts of characters might also be born, at least partly, of this process.
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 09-2010
Posted From: 86.165.39.12
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 06:03 pm:   

Theoretically, it is possble that Gary - according to his own deliberate blog yesterday for which I take no responsibility - writes 'genius' works because he believes he is making 'cabinets' and not tapping into magic or mysticism. And if he stops believing in this 'cabinetism', then his fictions will crash-land tomorrow. So, Gary, be yourself. That's the best way to be. But, again, thanks for such a wonderful topic.
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Hubert (Hubert)
Username: Hubert

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 178.118.79.219
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 06:33 pm:   

Don't underestimate the art of cabinet making.
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Allybird (Allybird)
Username: Allybird

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 88.104.137.65
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 06:45 pm:   

Ramsey. 'I don't know how relevant this is, but I always like to be surprised by what I'm writing - to write something I didn't know I was going to write until I reach it. I take it to mean my subconscious is engaged.'

Yes. When you are in the flow of it and something unexpected happens.

Zed. 'The subconscious isn't magic - when characters "take over" the story, it's our hard work that's brought that side of the imagination into play. Not magic. The act of writing, for me, is earthy and real and solid, not spiritual. The end result, however, is taken out of our hands and readers can call it spiritual if they like.'

Good point.

Des. 'For example, when I read DIFFERENT SKINS by Gary a few months ago (and when I real-time reviewed it), I felt it was tapping into things that the author himself didn't understand but had the genius to tap into. A mystique that was successfully conveyed against the grain. This was its spirituality, its magic. Gary cannot persuade me otherwise. His work is stronger than him.'

When you point out to the writer something they hadn't realised was happening. Another good point.
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Carolinec (Carolinec)
Username: Carolinec

Registered: 06-2009
Posted From: 92.232.199.129
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 06:53 pm:   

Interesting discussion - seems to have been precipitated by Zed's response to my question on Terry's "On Not Writing" thread. Didn't know I'd caused you to blog on the subject, Zed!

Can I spark off another side of the discussion prompted by Des' thought here: "Meanwhile, another philosophical argument (not one I necessarily believe): The best reader is the one who thinks your work is the work of a genius or has mystique or demonstrates the mystique of the power behind the book. This is the type of reader who will keep reading your books because mystique (not a cabinet) is probably the best path to your fiction being or at least seeming magical or disposed most readily towards suspension of disbelief."?

Who is it who actually creates the "magic" or "mystique" there is in a story - the writer or the reader? In a way, I guess it's an interaction between both writer and reader. The writer has to take the story in their heads (the magic bit?) and commit it skillfully (like building a cabinet) to paper. Then the reader comes along and performs their own kind of magic by interpreting that story in their heads.

Hmmm. Am I talking nonsense or making any sense here? Certainly, as I reader, I find the stories I enjoy most are the ones which feel "magical" to me.
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 09-2010
Posted From: 86.165.39.12
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 07:02 pm:   

Caroline, as you imply, I believe the mystique is triggered by the author and personalised by the reader.

Take an example today. The Emperor of Japan appeared on TV today. A rare historic event. This calmed the nerves of many Japanese. (Read between the lines therwe in the light of everythning else I've tried to say above.).
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Stephen Theaker (Stephen_theaker)
Username: Stephen_theaker

Registered: 12-2009
Posted From: 92.232.184.206
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 07:03 pm:   

During the years I was involved with running Nanowrimo events in Birmingham, I met a lot of people who said the same kind of things as Des, and a lot of people who thought the same way as Gary M. Guess which ones finished their novels...

The people who finished were those who said, a 50,000 word first draft of a short novel will take me about 40-50 hours to write, and this is how I'm going to fit that time into a month.

Obviously that's not the only way to write a novel, but Gary's right that in the end, even for the most mystical writer, it comes down to spending a certain amount of time at your desk and working at it.
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 09-2010
Posted From: 86.165.39.12
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 07:11 pm:   

I don't think anyone here is arguing with that last bit. You can't depend on mystique alone. It's the combination of work and mystique that often hits the jackpot of outcome, even if you don't believe in the mystique aspect that you instinctively use.
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Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.96.253.77
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 07:18 pm:   

Des, re: DIFFERENT SKINS.

It took me two almost years of solid hard graft to write that brief 14,000-word novelette (nearly four times longer than it took me to write my current novel). In the end, it does exactly what I wanted it to, and there were no suprises along the way. Nothing spiritual happened; I simply worked my fingers to the bone to get the story from my head to the page. In my life, I've found only one thing more mentally and physically: a 23-mile run over the cheviot hills I did in my mid-twenties.

And thank you, sincerely, for the compliment, btw. It means a lot.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.183.61.191
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 07:20 pm:   

We're all being prescriptive, perhaps. Let mystical writers do what they do, and the nuts n bolts folk do the same. That way, we can all get to the pub quicker. :-)

I'm pretty sure Samuel Taylor Coleridge would have had something to say about all this. But then, so would Arnold Bennett. Both ends of each perspective. Both as worthy, no?
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Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.96.253.77
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 07:20 pm:   

demanding...that's the missing word in the above post.

Sigh. I wish we had an edit button.
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Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.96.253.77
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 07:21 pm:   

I'm finding this discussion interesting, actually...nobody's right; nobody's wrong. We simply have different beliefs regarding this topic.
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 09-2010
Posted From: 86.165.39.12
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 07:22 pm:   

Nothing spiritual happened; I simply worked my fingers to the bone to get the story from my head to the page.
======

I humbly suggest that nobody can actually say that for certain.
How did the story get into your head in the first place, who put it there, what synchronicities of universe or brain were at work etc etc.
I mean - these question are endless and unanswerable.
The Intentional Fallacy that many have identified over the decades. Nothing you think or say about this can transcend those hiccups between cause and effect. IMO
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Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.96.253.77
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 07:22 pm:   

And I don't think we're being prescriptive - just saying what's right for us, the way we individually do things.
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Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.96.253.77
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 07:23 pm:   

Des - nobody can say what you're saying for certain, either. But the thing is, I'm certain that's how it is for me.
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Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.96.253.77
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 07:24 pm:   

And I could tell you exactly how that story got in my head - there are no hiccups between cause and effect: there's a direct connection. For me.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.183.61.191
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 07:25 pm:   

Well, you wrote:

"Writing isn't a transcendental, mystical experience - it isn't about a feeling of magic when the words miraculously appear on the page. Writing is fucking hard work. Years of fucking hard work. Decades of it."

and not:

"Writing for me isn't a transcendental, mystical experience - it isn't about a feeling of magic when the words miraculously appear on the page. Writing is fucking hard work. Years of fucking hard work. Decades of it."
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Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.96.253.77
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 07:27 pm:   

Yes, but it's on my personal blog, so I'm guesing people are bright enough to realise that it's my personal opinion...it's a given.
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Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch)
Username: Mark_lynch

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 217.171.129.71
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 07:30 pm:   

For the most part, I find more enjoyment in works where the writer's doing his best, whether it's a writer working his arse off to write the best pulp western he can or an existential modern mainstream novel. If an OK writer's doing his best, then it shows, and is somehow more palatable and satisfying read than a more gifted writer producing pieces where he's slumming.
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 09-2010
Posted From: 86.165.39.12
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 07:31 pm:   

I think that was what originally ruffled my feathers. The presumption of generalisation in that blog post. Its 'shattering the myth' warcry.
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Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch)
Username: Mark_lynch

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 217.171.129.71
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 07:32 pm:   

It's not always the case, but more often than not the writers whose work I prefer don't think of themselves as carpenters. Likewise, writers who do think they're carpenters tend not to do much for me. Not a hard and fast rule. Just something I've noticed over the years.
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Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.96.253.77
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 07:33 pm:   

Yep - and I knew it would ruffle your feathers, Des. It was, basically, a self-aggrandising, self-promotional, attention-seeking opinion piece.

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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.183.61.191
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 07:33 pm:   

Writers are more like plasterers, I reckon: always pissed.
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Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch)
Username: Mark_lynch

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 217.171.129.71
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 07:35 pm:   

That said, if a writer seriously tells me he's channelling the spirits and producing Barbara Taylor Bradford rags to riches things, alarm bells ring somewhere.
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Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch)
Username: Mark_lynch

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 217.171.129.71
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 07:38 pm:   

Writers are like plasterers? What, don't turn up on time, and if they do they want so much money you're better off doing it yourself - he says having spent most of the week skimming a ceiling...
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.183.61.191
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 07:38 pm:   

Btw, Zed, I think I'm bright enough to realise it's your opinion, but you still wrote what you wrote and that's all I could respond to.

Maybe take a look at the woodwork next time and sandpaper those rough edges.
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Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch)
Username: Mark_lynch

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 217.171.129.71
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 07:39 pm:   

MFI - Made For Idiots.
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Stephen Theaker (Stephen_theaker)
Username: Stephen_theaker

Registered: 12-2009
Posted From: 92.232.184.206
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 07:40 pm:   

Maybe it's because I have no professional ambitions for my fiction, but I enjoy writing novels. The sheer number of hours wears me down eventually, but the time at the keyboard is generally fun.

Especially since I changed over to the Dvorak layout... it's a lot easier to enjoy writing when your fingers don't ache.
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Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.96.253.77
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 07:44 pm:   

you still wrote what you wrote and that's all I could respond to

Yeah, it worked a treat, didn't it? My blog has never had so many comments on a single posting.

Next week, McMahon blogs about creationism...
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Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.96.253.77
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 07:45 pm:   

Stephen, all the writers I know with professional ambitions love writing novels, too. Isn't that why we do it? because we love it so much we can't not do it?
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.183.61.191
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 07:48 pm:   

So now you're saying you planned this all along, that your blog was cacklingly knowing and deliberately provocative?

Pull the other one. It's got a bell-end on it.
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Stephen Theaker (Stephen_theaker)
Username: Stephen_theaker

Registered: 12-2009
Posted From: 92.232.184.206
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 07:54 pm:   

Gary M: Stephen, all the writers I know with professional ambitions love writing novels, too. Isn't that why we do it? because we love it so much we can't not do it?

True! I just mean that it isn't "hard graft" for me - I sit there laughing while I type..!
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.183.61.191
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 07:56 pm:   

What's the Dvorak layout? Is it, like, New World? Slavonic?
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Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.96.253.77
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 07:56 pm:   

Well, I think the title gives it away... "Shattering the Myth". Very provocative. And the tone. I actually wrote it in response to the thread elsewhere on here, as Caroline points out somewhere above.

It even got more attention than my "Brittany Spears' Nipples" blog just before Christmas.
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Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.96.253.77
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 07:57 pm:   

I think The Dvorak Layout was an episode of Dr Who, circa 1973.
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 09-2010
Posted From: 86.165.39.12
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 08:02 pm:   

Are yoy going to tell all those people who agreed with your blog on Facebook that you weren't being serious?
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.183.61.191
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 08:04 pm:   

But at 2:59 today you made the same point. You wriggling wriggler.
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Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.96.253.77
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 08:04 pm:   

Oh, I was being serious...can someone not be provocative and serious?

It's a provocative opinion piece meant to stimulate debate on something I find particularly interesting. And it did just that.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.183.61.191
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 08:05 pm:   

He was being serious. Now he's wriggling.
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 09-2010
Posted From: 86.165.39.12
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 08:05 pm:   

Wriggling is the word.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.183.61.191
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 08:05 pm:   

Wriggle wriggle.
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Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.96.253.77
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 08:05 pm:   

I just mean that it isn't "hard graft" for me - I sit there laughing while I type..!

Stephen you are a very strange man...
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Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.96.253.77
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 08:07 pm:   

Gary - I have no idea what you mean. How am I wriggling? My opinion is stated clearly in my blog - a blog that was written ina deliberately provocative manner to stir up some debate (and get a rise out of Tony, but that failed).

No wriggling from me.
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 09-2010
Posted From: 86.165.39.12
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 08:08 pm:   

you're wriggling away from this. IMO.

Well, I think the title gives it away... "Shattering the Myth". Very provocative. And the tone. I actually wrote it in response to the thread elsewhere on here, as Caroline points out somewhere above.
It even got more attention than my "Brittany Spears' Nipples" blog just before Christmas
}
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Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.96.253.77
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 08:09 pm:   

How is that wriggling away from anything? And from what?

My opinion stands. See: no wriggling here.
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Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.96.253.77
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 08:10 pm:   

And if you check the archives on my blog, that Brittany post actually exists, too.
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 09-2010
Posted From: 86.165.39.12
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 08:10 pm:   

fair enough.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.183.61.191
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 08:16 pm:   

So anyway . . . what the fuck is a Dvorak layout?
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 09-2010
Posted From: 86.165.39.12
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 08:19 pm:   

I think now that I was tempted into arguing about something with a wider context than I knew existed. No big deal as far as internet things go. Not enough to upset me; maybe just enough to give me minor background irritation.
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Hubert (Hubert)
Username: Hubert

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 178.118.79.219
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 08:29 pm:   

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dvorak_Simplified_Keyboard
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Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.96.253.77
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 09:05 pm:   

Minor background irritation is a constant in life for me, Des.
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Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.96.253.77
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 09:06 pm:   

And with my background, that isn't really suprising.

Whe-hey! Me made a joke!
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Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch)
Username: Mark_lynch

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 217.171.129.72
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 10:58 pm:   

I think you've failed the Spy Craft Introductory course. Smiley.
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 109.79.34.20
Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2011 - 11:47 pm:   

"The subconscious isn't magic"

I'd say that it is an important part of magic. Art and magic are part of the same mechanism, I think. Alan Moore said that to spell is to cast a spell.

Art is the opposite of magic. Magic is about planting messages in one's unconscious which change you and subsequently your life. Art is about drawing things out of the unconscious.
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Stephen Theaker (Stephen_theaker)
Username: Stephen_theaker

Registered: 12-2009
Posted From: 92.232.184.206
Posted on Thursday, March 17, 2011 - 12:01 am:   

Sorry for not replying, Gary F. - I was out at our monthly TQF "editorial meeting".

The Dvorak layout is a much easier keyboard layout. I switched over a few years ago now, and can type for hours without any twinges. It puts all the most frequently used letters under your home fingers, so you do most of your typing without moving your hands - there's none of the twisting to get to hard to reach letters.
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Carole Johnstone (Carolej)
Username: Carolej

Registered: 04-2010
Posted From: 92.23.230.106
Posted on Friday, March 18, 2011 - 12:01 am:   

Hmm...you both make good points, Gary & Des, but I wonder if it can't be a bit of both? 90% of the time, writing for me is a slog hard enough to make me want to give up and go down the pub, but every once in a while, I'll write something, or resolve something, and wonder where on earth it came from. The high from that can feel quite independent of me; certainly, I don't always understand it. And I know that it's the only reason I keep going: that other 10%.

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