| Author | Message | ||
     Mbfg (Mbfg) Username: Mbfg Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 82.6.90.110 |
I have just watched Simon Armitage's fascinating and beautifully told story of the child who testified against her own family in 1612 and sent them to the gallows as the infamous Witches of Pendle. A point raised was something of an old chestnut and one I have often explored myself in my writing (“Fracture” which made it into the first BFS journal of example) and been chillingly aware of the modern witch hunt, against paedophile, terrorist and now, well, I myself am guilty this time, of rioters and looters. I knew I would calm down eventually and my more rational self would shove its way to the fore. It took this marvellous television documentary to do it but already I can see a new witch hunt in the offing - our effort to hunt down and punish the rioters and looters beyond the full extent of the law. Don’t get me wrong, I have no sympathy for the vile and, in some cases, horribly violent and even murderous behaviour of the guilty, but we have to be careful, or we'll be hanging more "witches” on the slightest of evidence. Regards Terry | ||
| Paul_finch (Paul_finch) Username: Paul_finch Registered: 11-2009 Posted From: 92.5.34.191 |
An honest view, Terry, but just to play the devil's advocate - those hanged for witchcraft had in nearly all cases done nothing wrong at all. The rioters and looters have. Plus, the rioters and looters are not being hanged. Sorry, but on this occasion I don't agree with you. Robbery, burglary and arson are serious offences - and in many cases here that's what we're dealing with. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.150.18.179 |
Considering that the Salford trouble happened in Pendleton, there's a punny opportunity been missed here... | ||
| Paul_finch (Paul_finch) Username: Paul_finch Registered: 11-2009 Posted From: 92.5.34.191 |
When I was a cop in Salford, Pendleton Police Station used to be known as 'Fort Apache'. It's a poor enough part of the city without the few shops they've got being robbed and burned. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.79.16.214 |
Children involved in homicide have also been hounded with suspicious zeal. An odd thing is the British press (and therefore the ductile proportion of the population) seem to regard a child who is involved in homicide as somehow more culpable than an adult in the same situation, as if they're "super-evil".* (I think someone has already on this board linked to Will Self making this point on Question Time) That footage of a middle-aged man throwing himself on the van carrying the children in the Jamie Bulger case has stayed with me. What exactly was this adult planning on doing if he got his hands on one of those children? I like to think that ordinary people are smarter than this, and will have more nuanced thoughts if given the space to do so, but the loud, shrink-wrapped opinions come off the presses every morning and become accepted wisdom. Maybe society would rather be bonded by the same (wrong) opinions than face the challenge of individual thought and the possibility that the truth may lie in our opinions being part of an archipelago rather than a continent. (*I disapprove of the word "evil", by the way. It's been tremendously corrosive to our ethical and moral progress. We might as well invoke ju-ju in our discussion.) | ||
| Mbfg (Mbfg) Username: Mbfg Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 212.219.63.204 |
Paul First, good to hear from you and congratulations on your shortlistings. I actually agree with your point and I do not, for one moment, suggest that we do not pursue and prosecute those responsible for the outrages of last week. What I am concerned about, is allowing our gut to rule our heads, to bay and slaver in a newspaper-fuelled lynch mob, to throw ourselves at the van as Proto put it. I'm as angry as anyone and my earlier posts on this subject were a way of venting my frustration and humiliation at the fact that it is our children who were terrorising us. But what i wastrying to say (and tell myself as my blood pressure reaches nuclear levels and steam still pours from my ears)is that what separates us from Gadaffi, the Syrian government, the Witchfinder General, News International and the judge and jury in 17th century Pendle is the frustrating, maddening, emotionless and unutterably tedious process of fair trial and presumed innocence. Cheers Terry | ||
| Paul_finch (Paul_finch) Username: Paul_finch Registered: 11-2009 Posted From: 92.5.34.191 |
I don't disagree with any of that, Terry. The lynch-mob mentality has always appalled me, but I think that's one good reason why the authorities clamped down hard on the disorder of last week, because in certain parts of London, and it would have followed elsewhere, other groups of hooligans were forming up to take the law into their own hands - or at least their version of the law, and then there'd really have been blood. Thanks for the thumbs-up re the nominations. It's much appreciated. | ||
| Simon Bestwick (Simon_b) Username: Simon_b Registered: 10-2008 Posted From: 86.24.209.217 |
Well said, Terry. The point of a witch-hunt is to provide scapegoats. The Pendle 'Witches' were uneducated, unpopular and- above all- different. In the 60s, 70s and 80s it was 'Reds under the Beds'- And while there were genuinely whackjobs around who would have wanted to turn Britain into a replica of the Soviet Union, it was also a very good way to pillory anyone opposing Thatcherism or campaigning against the insanity of nuclear weapons. In the 90s, it was paedophiles- a vile bunch to be sure, but not single-handedly responsible for the country's ills. Oh, and single mothers. And now it's chav rioters. Morons and wankers in many cases, although I've seen some interviews with some of them which touch on other, deeper issues. But handing down custodial sentences to (one recent example from Manchester) a woman who slept through the whole riot but accepted a pair of stolen pants distracts from bankers who get huge bonuses for wrecking the economy (and people's lives) or MPs who stole quite a few flat-screen TVs (and flats, cars, moats etc) by 'accidental' embezzlement. You're right, absolutely right, about our justice system. But it's one law for the rich, and one for the poor. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
To be fair, all of the TV shows I've been watching this last week, now that the initial furore has calmed down, seem to be focusing on these "underlying issues". I don't really see any evidence of a "witch hunt". Then again, I don't read newspapers or watch much TV news. Our justice system has always been one rule for the rich and another for the poor. That isn't anything new. The only thing that will change that isa revolution - but revolution isn't about burning down your neighbour's house, stealing TVs out of Currys, and nabbing trainers out of Footlocker. Anyway, I'm with Finchy on this one. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
But handing down custodial sentences to (one recent example from Manchester) a woman who slept through the whole riot but accepted a pair of stolen pants Where did you here this? Sorry mate, but it souds like something the Daily Mail would print - i.e., totally made up. | ||
| Simon Bestwick (Simon_b) Username: Simon_b Registered: 10-2008 Posted From: 86.24.209.217 |
Unfortunately it's here... http://www.metro.co.uk/news/872276-manchester-riots-mum-of-two-jailed-for-five-m onths-for-wearing-stolen-shorts | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
I still don't think that's the whole story, mate...call me cynical, but I never believe sensational stories like that at face value. I see no sources quotes, for example. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
It even contradicts itself...at first it says she's been sentenced to 5 months, then at the end it says : The call centre worker, also 24, pleaded guilty to theft. She will be sentenced at Manchester Crown Court. So which is it? Has she been sentenced or not? She'll probably get a suspended sentence for handling stolen goods. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
Hang on... The call centre worker, also 24, pleaded guilty to theft. She will be sentenced at Manchester Crown Court. I read that last bit wrong. Now I get it. She's been sentenced for handling stolen goods, and is soon to be sentenced for theft. Did she steal stuff in her sleep? | ||
| Simon Bestwick (Simon_b) Username: Simon_b Registered: 10-2008 Posted From: 86.24.209.217 |
No, her flat mate (Gemma Corbett) has been sentenced for theft. Ursula Nevin got sentenced for receiving. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
Ah, now I see. "I was asleep, guv'nor"...mmm. Right. Like I say, I doubt we're getting he full story here. | ||
| Paul_finch (Paul_finch) Username: Paul_finch Registered: 11-2009 Posted From: 92.5.34.191 |
I certainly feel sorry for anyone who's innocent who gets swept up in this kind of chaos. And though the old copper in me is suspcious of this "I slept through the whole thing" story, I've not got all the facts to hand and can't pass judgement. But I will say this ... everyone involved in that disorder, even it was peripheral - i.e. receiving or handling stolen goods - was contributing to a very serious problem. We can express all the outrage we like about ‘show trials’ or ‘exemplary sentencing’, but personally I’d expect nothing less. If this kind of widespread looting, violence and theft were to occur on a regular basis in this country, life in our towns and cities would very soon be intolerable. As for the bankers, I’ve always said that I'd like to see them in prison as well. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
Again, I'm in full agreement with Paul. About the bankers, too, and the politicians who conned the expenses. They should all be rotting in (a very big) jail with the rioters. | ||
| Mbfg (Mbfg) Username: Mbfg Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 212.219.63.204 |
In the same cell... | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.27.8.48 |
Human Rights mean nothing to you, do they, Grimwood? Your proposal is hardly fair to the rioters.  | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 178.116.54.69 |
Rotting with the riotters because they riotted with the rotters. | ||
| Mbfg (Mbfg) Username: Mbfg Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 212.219.63.204 |
I happen to know that the bankers and expenses-fuelled politicians communed with the Devil in lewd rites and all manner of foul and God-offending naughtiness so can be no doubt about what terrible consequence they have brought upon their thrice-damned souls. And they turned me into a newt. but I got better... | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.27.8.48 |
Build a bridge out of her. | ||
| Paul_finch (Paul_finch) Username: Paul_finch Registered: 11-2009 Posted From: 92.5.34.191 |
Anyone fancy editing a antho of 'Corporate Horror'? Then we could all totally let rip at them. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.27.8.48 |
I'll have the DWP slot . . . | ||
| Simon Bestwick (Simon_b) Username: Simon_b Registered: 10-2008 Posted From: 86.24.209.217 |
I'd love to write one for that! Any volunteers for the editor's job? Joel..? Prof...? The landlord...? | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
At one time I had a plan for such an anthology – not specifically a genre anthology but including some crime and horror material. My working title was Shoot the Boss – from the anecdote of the office team who were required to write a 'SMART' objective on a sticker and put it on their computer screen every Monday. One no-mark functionary wrote 'Shoot the boss'. His manager commented that it was not a SMART objective. The employee added the word 'now'. I've believed for years that work is to us what sex was to the Victorians: something many of us can't get and most of us live with but try not to mention... and something that dominates our nightmares and our private fears. Most of us no longer fear that sex will bring on the wrath of God, but we know very well that corporate culture is destroying us and our world. Someone should edit such an anthology – whether as a literary/mainstream title or as a specialist horror title. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
My working title was Shoot the Boss – from the anecdote of the office team who were required to write a 'SMART' objective on a sticker and put it on their computer screen every Monday. One no-mark functionary wrote 'Shoot the boss'. His manager commented that it was not a SMART objective. The employee added the word 'now'. That's fucking brilliant.  | ||
| Simon Bestwick (Simon_b) Username: Simon_b Registered: 10-2008 Posted From: 86.24.209.217 |
Possibly an (editing) job for Nick Royle? | ||
| Mbfg (Mbfg) Username: Mbfg Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 212.219.63.204 |
I would be willing to edit such an anthology, either for my The Exaggerated Press or for another publisher. Or as part of a team/double act It won't be quick though because TEP has "The Monster Book for Girls" imminent, a Douglas Thompson novel, a Stuart Hughes/Des Lewis collaborative collection and "The Best of Peeping Tom" in tne pipeline. Guidelines can be drawn up and deadlines set of course, and most importantly, stories can be written in the white heat of inspiration and creativity. An alternative would be to give my e-zine Wordland's issue 2 the "Shoot the Boss" theme. it would be quicker and easier. What do you think? Regards Terry | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.27.8.48 |
If catharsis in the workplacve is what you're after, try this: http://www.whackyourbossways.com/whack_your_boss_20_ways.html The scissors method is the most fun . . . | ||
| Mbfg (Mbfg) Username: Mbfg Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 212.219.63.204 |
i would willingly stand aside for Royle-ty of course. That post snuck in while I was writing my last one! | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.27.8.48 |
You do it, Tel. As a book. Could be great. | ||
| Simon Bestwick (Simon_b) Username: Simon_b Registered: 10-2008 Posted From: 86.24.209.217 |
Absolutely. I'll happily (and I mean happily) write something for it. | ||
| Simon Bestwick (Simon_b) Username: Simon_b Registered: 10-2008 Posted From: 86.24.209.217 |
Update on the story about the shorts lady- the sentence has been reduced to community service: http://uk.news.yahoo.com/many-appeals-due-over-riot-cases-050245629.html Also, whatever you think of the 'slept through the riot' story, even the police are saying she wasn't directly involved in the disturbances: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/13/manchester-police-sorry-looter-sentence It looks like some of the OTT-ness is being reined back; there are plenty of people who were involved in the rioting who deserve to have the book thrown at them, though, and hopefully they still will. One law for the rich and one for the poor may always have been the way, but it's rarely been shown more blatantly. It's not politically tendentious to say it anymore- it's a simple statement of plain fact visible to anyone who's looking. We're being ruled by a class of professional politicians whose contempt for anyone below them isn't even concealed. That's frightening on many different levels- one of which is that letting one sector of society prey at will while another is landed on with both feet even for comparatively minor infractions is a recipe for provoking some serious civil unrest. Given the state of the economy and what that's likely to do to people's lives over the next couple of years, it could mean we ain't seen nothing yet. And I bloody well hope I'm wrong there. | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 49.226.21.41 |
I do think that is about time some of these OTT sentences were looked at properly. Five months was ridiculous for that. And the police tweeting and celebrating...thought that they would be aside from that sort of thing. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.145.130.154 |
Wow! look at the comments on that story... | ||
| Simon Bestwick (Simon_b) Username: Simon_b Registered: 10-2008 Posted From: 86.24.209.217 |
The EDL have clearly finished wanking over goat porn for the day earlier than usual, and have turned their attention to the news stories instead. | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
>>Wow! look at the comments on that story...<< >>The EDL have clearly finished wanking over goat porn for the day earlier than usual, and have turned their attention to the news stories instead.<< I haven't looked at it, but I notice it's a Yahoo news story. With one of my email addresses being a Yahoo one, I used to look at their news stories quite regularly. But the comments have just got out of control - racist, homophobic, saying dreadful things about people who've just died in nasty accidents, etc. I've stopped looking at them - it was making me wish I wasn't a member of the human race.  | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.79.19.68 |
I haven't read the comments, but I found even the official Yahoo News was too crass. I've just seen Michael Moore's CAPITALISM: A LOVE STORY and it overcame my distrust of Michael Moore - aside from Mr. Moore's cringe-inducing stunts, it's a strong piece, particularly the part about the leaked memo from Citibank talking about how America is now effectively a plutonomy and what the possible threats to that could be. |