| Author | Message | ||
     Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.150.19.4 |
 Apparently your media isn't too hot about reporting this stuff. http://occupywallst.org/ | ||
| Thomasb (Thomasb) Username: Thomasb Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.25.141.120 |
Well, short of sending troops on the street ala Syria, what dare they do about it? | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
I'd think more about them, if they were to equally occupy places of government - the White House, etc. Assembled angry groups that singularly and suspiciously ignore REAL centers of power (did anyone tell these protesters, btw, who GAVE Wall Street all the bailout money?...) are either tools, or idiots. Power, power, power. Never trust those in power, or those who seek power. Didn't say kill or simply be ever against them or whatnot - just don't trust them. Our American U.S. Constitution is a document of one thing first above all others: deep distrust in humans and organizations that seek power. From that distrust, and the subsequent rules put down - to prevent fomenting tyrannical powers from ever coalescing - all good things flow.... | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.150.19.4 |
Centres of power like... erm wall street... which is a control centre for money in America with massive influence on the entire planet... Forget which party is in power, the people who hold the purse strings are the people who really run the world. | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 85.222.86.21 |
Craig - they don't ignore real centres of power. They aren't stupid. They would simply fail in getting the slightest bit close. The next big thing, Wall Street. At least they are doing something, regardless of its probable pointlessness. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
Frank, then they need to PUBLICLY disabuse everyone of the notion that they've been annexed by the Obama administration, and their lackeys in the media: because media water-carriers are basically giving the impression, that they are anti-GOP only, and pro-current-government. And Obama and Nancy Pelosi and others currently in the majority in government, are standing in verbal solidarity with them - which is like, I'm thinking, Yemeni officials saying they agree with the revolutionaries' positions. If these Occupy fill-in-the-blank guys can come out and say they distrust and abhor ALL those in power for the last decade, and think they all need public spankings - I'm going to suddenly be very much so on their side. But for right now, I'm sorry, they're coming off to me, just to me, like tools. And I hate tools. | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 85.222.86.21 |
Craig - I agree with you, to a certain extent. I get your reservations. But with partial demonstration comes some understanding. Even the most 'deliberate misguided attempts' are better than nothing, though I have just as much reluctance as yourself to buy into the whole thing. We're on the same side, but something, no matter how apparently manipulated has to be taken advantage of for the better. But I understand what you mean. If only I didn't (: | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.144.33.11 |
If you read their site, as opposed to listening to the very few facts your media are dishing out, they claim to have no affiliation to either party in America. Not Pro Obama or pro the other guy. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.79.0.223 |
I wonder how much we've internalised conservatism to the point that we react against any attempt to rescue us from a system that we ourselves dislike. In Plato's cave analogy anyone who's rescued from confinement will attack their rescuers. Given everything that's been perpetrated in the last decade (the biggest lie in recent history, the biggest loss of civilian life for profit in recent history, the biggest erosion of human rights in recent history and absolutely the biggest robbery of the public by private forces in ALL of history), there should have been one or two actual revolutions in the US and Europe by now. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.79.0.223 |
"and absolutely the biggest robbery of the public by private forces in ALL of history)" At first I thought I was exaggerating here, but ancient kings who claimed the whole of a country as divinely theres had little power to enact that control with the rigidity that's possible today, so I think the bailouts have been the biggest single robbery of all time. The standard retort when one criticizes capitalism is "what would you replace it with?" I have no idea. But that doesn't mean it's like democracy (the worst form of government besides all the others). If I go to a doctor with an illness I don't want have to be able to talk him through the surgery before he'll take my illness seriously. The first thing I want him to do is acknowledge that the current situatin isn't working. Then we'll work out a detailed plan. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.79.0.223 |
God, "theirs", not "theres". | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.79.0.223 |
I don't even think that lack of money is a problem, as long as we can feed and clothe ourselves. The problem is that those in charge use both booms and busts to increase the divide between themselves and everyone else. It doesn't matter whether the economy goes up or down, the separation between classes only ratchets in one direction. This is not an economic problem, this is a political one. | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 85.222.86.21 |
Agreed, Proto. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 129.11.77.197 |
The ideological shift to a regulated (ha!) free market espoused by the IMF and endorsed by leaders all over the world is paper-thin transparent. It happens all the time. Structural readjustments = mass sackings, death of unions, transference of power to the few. But don't listen to me. I was saying all this before the credit crunch. Albie said I was a pseud and a liar. He was right, of course. The evidence is all around us. The world is lovely. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 147.252.230.148 |
Another thing: whenever business want to do something they use the word jobs as a shield. They really mean "profit". Why are there self-service checkouts at Tesco? Because businesses hate jobs and their goal is to eliminate them. | ||
| Stevie Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
Good people are righteously angry in the United States and this needs to be reported and supported - fucking fearlessly!! Go see 'Red State'. There's a reason sane people have a love/hate relationship with the USA... | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.66.23.11 |
"Why are there self-service checkouts at Tesco? " I did ask in one branch of tesco if I got a discount for using the self service till seeing as it saves them the cost of paying for someone to do the job... Strangely enough the answer was no. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.66.23.11 |
Craig, how could they possibly try to occupy the White House without being shot as terrorists? | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.79.51.178 |
"I did ask in one branch of tesco if I got a discount for using the self service till seeing as it saves them the cost of paying for someone to do the job... Strangely enough the answer was no." The worst is the ATM. So, let me get this right: I give you my money, you take it and make a profit from it, then in order to get my money back I have to take a short-term job as a bank teller for which privilage you charge me? | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
Weber, have you ever heard of the "Tea Party"? They've been protesting all over in places of government, and they're not shot "as terrorists." You know, why don't these people find the HOMES of the rich, and start causing mayhem there? Their communities and parks? Martha's Vineyard and the Hamptons? I'm not being facetious, I'm being serious. You think the rich bastards give a flying fuck if anyone's protesting where they work? Sometimes? No, go to the homes, the schools and streets where the rich live, and cause mayhem THERE. Then see what happens. I'm sick of these fucking games. If you're going to protest, protest with teeth, or go back home. Don't play around. Don't be half-assed about it, be REAL. Crash and burn, go to jail, torch things, leave destruction behind, damage the evil-mongers' possessions irretrievably, or leave. You're all wasting my TV time, I got reruns of "The Golden Girls" to watch.... | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 147.252.230.148 |
"You know, why don't these people find the HOMES of the rich, and start causing mayhem there?" Because they're probably better defended than the Whitehouse, what with the rich having enough money to hire unaccountable private security firms. "Crash and burn, go to jail, torch things, leave destruction behind, damage the evil-mongers' possessions irretrievably" If they did that, they would be labelled as criminals and thugs. They're taking the moral high ground, engaging in peaceful resistance and they're in for the long haul. I respect them for that. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 129.11.76.216 |
Maybe Craig was doing a paraody of the 'shock and awe' mentality? Just a thought. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.66.23.11 |
This is Craig we're talking about... he's probably serious | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 129.11.76.216 |
Oh well, if "probably" is involved, I'll back down. I didn't know it was as certain as "probably". | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
I'm a bit muddled, sure, but I'm being I'd like to think mostly facetious. Points being these: What is it specifically these protestors want? What do they want specifically changed, or created? If they don't want anything specific, but just want to make a symbolic "point," then should anyone have any respect for them? They clearly don't want laws changed - they're not protesting the places of the lawmakers (White House, Congress, etc.) What are they going to occupy Wall Street until? Until what? What will make them happy? What specifically, not touchy-feely-vaguey-waguey? Does anyone know? Do they have a single, focused list of demands? A manifesto? And is it this side of sane? | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
Well what'd'ya know about that?... the protestors are gaining a bit more respect from me now.... http://money.cnn.com/2011/10/10/news/economy/occupy_wall_street_protest/index.ht m Though what exactly they want remains uncertain. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 166.216.226.189 |
But then, why are they only protesting rich CONSERVATIVES? No protests at the Soros, Zuckerman, Bloomberg homes? Sorry. That's just fucking hypocritical. Lost respect again. Tools, tools, tools.... | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.66.23.11 |
BTW Craig, they are going to jail - in quite large numbers. Just check the foreign news reports about it rather than your own. They're being kettled in and cs-gassed and beaten by the cops. Plenty of pictures of it online. Including on the link I posted in the first thread here. They are however trying not to be seen as thugs. They're trying peaceful protest. Believe me, you don't want riots in the streets. That doesn't achieve anything. We had that here in England just a few weeks back. If you want the rich to get sympathy, let the protesters trash their property - then they've got all the ammo they need to say "Look these people are just trashing our property because they're jealous." and ridiculing and labelling the protestors as thugs. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.79.62.96 |
"What is it specifically these protestors want?" To ask that they collectively have an answer for that at this stage is to miss the point. It's asking for them to become a political party, to join in with a rigged, corrupt game. Of course they eventually will have to get specific, but for now, the diffuse nature of the movement is its greatest strength, and they're wisely not defining themselves out of existence at this stage. | ||
| Almills (Almills) Username: Almills Registered: 05-2010 Posted From: 68.173.7.13 |
Yeah, the protestors are getting a lot of flak for their vague intention. There's not great eloquence or syncopation in any political agenda-- so it appears like a mob of discontent. But I think their presence & discontent IS actually fulfilling their purpose: drawing attention to huge economic inequality, in relation to high unemployment. Their desire (though muddled by too many slogans) is implicitly obvious (and in conjunction with many latest news' polls): most Americans want the richest to pay higher taxes. Under Bush, the US cut taxes twice & wages two wars- and the economy sank because revenue sank and cost (mostly of wars) increased. The housing market & stocks crashed because more regulations were cut (while Republicans would argue otherwise to divert blame). Now, corporations & banks are making record profits, sitting on loads of cash, while out-sourcing & laying off jobs. Republicans are modeling the rich as "job creators," but that hasn't been happening. The GOP theory that cutting corporate taxes (or dismantling government altogether) will make jobs is pure fantasy-- and it's only been successful in making the GOP richer. I understand attracting rich investors with low rates-- but doesn't it make sense (in this shitty economy) to invest in public jobs (like education & construction), under a huge Jobs Bill, that could be financed easily with the rich paying a bit more of their fare share? Of course, it's difficult when the wealthiest (Koch Brothers) are financing tons of anti-Obama think-tanks (Tea Party) to confuse Americans, create more profits for themselves, all by buying more political power with congressional seats. I'm also convinced GOP just wants Obama to have a terrible term--and they're satisfied if the majority are doing worse (since their billionaire donors are doing remarkably well). It's true the protestors could have more legitimacy if targeting Congress or "government," instead of the "private sector." But I'm still happy for their presence, if even just to spur controversy & discussion. In short, I think they're protesting corporate success at the expense of (the "99%") public welfare. This, to me, implies policy change and tax reform. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.79.68.191 |
It's remarkable to see this in the credits of a Will Ferrell comedy (The Other Guys): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvuDGyUkzoI | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.144.33.11 |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbvxALFWvHs | ||
| Stevie Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
'The Other Guys' was one of the films of last year - as much for its brains as for the belly laughs - as you will see if you read my write-up on the "Films Of 2010" thread. A wonderful comedy! | ||
| Skip (Wolfnoma) Username: Wolfnoma Registered: 07-2010 Posted From: 216.54.20.98 |
I will say, as an American, that our news media, both local and national, are not the most unbiased reporters in the world. This also applies to our elected leaders, who, as a whole have never met an agenda they don't want to push. It seems every talking head just wants to keep their lips moving and making sounds until people either vote for them, walk away, or change the channel. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.79.93.225 |
Yeah, The Other Guys had a few good giggles in it: "Thanks for the use of the f-shack. -- Dirty Mike and the Boys" | ||
| Stevie Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
What we are seeing on a global scale - first in the East & increasingly in the West - is an instinctive outpouring of righteous anger at the corporate bigwigs and their crony politicians who had the "misfortune" to be operating the levers of power when the Capitalist experiment failed. When enough people realise they've been shafted and start to feel the pain that's when the disenfranchised gather into angry mobs and revolutions happen. Revolutions are no more rational or organised than wanting to punch someone in the face, Craig. We all enjoyed the good times while they lasted and now want to punish those greedy bastards who skimmed off the cream and left us with the dregs. This has been a cyclical phenomenon throughout the history of humankind, and only goes to show that, as a species, we haven't evolved that much at all. Think of a pressure cooker mechanism, that is currently blowing off steam, and operates as an integral safety valve for the species - stopping tiny vested interests from taking over the gene pool. Vive la Révolution! And God help us all... |