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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Tuesday, January 17, 2012 - 01:16 pm:   

**** MAJOR WIZARD KNIGHT SPOILERS - DO NOT READ THIS UNLESS YOU'VE READ THE KNIGHT ****

I find myself haunted by the ending of 'The Knight' and can't resist a bit of pondering on what it means and how it sets up 'The Wizard'.

Sir Able emerged from the climactic battle with the black dragon, Grengarm (what a frightening beast!), supernaturally altered and able to see the spirits of all the dead knights who had wielded the sword, Eterne, before him. He is then carried to the Valfather's castle in the clouds by what would appear to be an armoured angel. The majestic edifice, briefly glimpsed in his dreams, that he had been promised access to once he had proved himself a true and noble Knight. Craig, there is only one obvious inference to be taken from this. When he was engulfed in that sheet of dragon fire.. he didn't make it... and all that followed was his experience of <choke> crossing over to the other side!

This completely negates my guess that 'The Wizard' would be about emotional growth and gaining wisdom as an aging adult. There'll be no more growing for our hero.

Craig, I really believe Able is... dead.

Tell me I must be wrong for I can't get this terrible thought out of my head.
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Tuesday, January 17, 2012 - 04:33 pm:   

And this after just being reunited with his old mentor, Berthold, after believing him slain for all those years. When the blind old man felt his hand and said he'd once known a young lad called Able but he'd been much smaller I didn't half fill up. Gene Wolfe really knows how to deliver an emotional ending - or cliffhanger, in this case!

So now we're set for a Dante-like exploration of the afterlife in Book 2... or so it would seem. But what of Gylf, Mani, Pouk, Ulfa, Org & Svon? Maybe he'll return to them as a ghost or some kind of transformed spirit warrior? You were right about him pulling the rug from under us and I'm finding it very difficult to refrain from diving into 'The Wizard' to find out.

Determined to finish 'Imajica' first though...
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 99.126.164.88
Posted on Tuesday, January 17, 2012 - 04:48 pm:   

You've put me in an untenable position, Stevie... answering-you-wise....

That's all I can say. At the moment.
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Tuesday, January 17, 2012 - 04:53 pm:   

Hmmm... physical growth from boy to man followed by spiritual growth from mortal to immortal, perhaps?

This is all very exciting.
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Tuesday, January 17, 2012 - 05:10 pm:   

Of course the most poignant thing about the whole tale is that the boy's family already would have long assumed him dead. Just another of those children who went out to play in the woods one day and never came home...
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Wednesday, January 18, 2012 - 04:12 pm:   

Thought I'd stick this summation of the universe Gene Wolfe has created in 'The Wizard Knight' on here too, Craig, as I'm really quite pleased with it. And fully expect every detail to be shot down in flames after completing Book 2!

Mythgarthr is where the mortals live out their lives of blood, sweat and tears.

Below it lies Aelfrice inhabited by the imaginary beings - both good and bad - that mortals have dreamt up.

Above it lies Skai where the immortal spirits of dead mortals from Mythgarthr go and realise there is more to existence than just life.

Below Aelfrice is Muspel inhabited by the dark beings beyond imagination that represent fear of the unknown and within which the imaginary beings imagined by the imaginary beings of Aelfrice belong (if you get my drift). How Lovecraft would have loved to explore Muspel.

Above Skai is Kleos inhabited by the "Gods" or Overcyn - helpful and contrary - to which all lower beings (including the spirits of the dead) look up to, aspire to and owe allegiance to. Yet even in their omnipotence the Overcyn realise there are greater truths above and beyond even them.

Below Muspel is Niflheim which represents the ultimate non-state of The Void, nothingness, removal from all experience or points of reference which is the only truly imaginary reality.

And above them all is Elysion which represents the all-knowing super-consciousness of The One - within which and out of which all reality exists and flows but, and this is crucial, Elysion requires the experience of all the worlds beneath it to differentiate it from Niflheim.

What ya think, man?

By my reckoning Able has just entered Skai, after existing in Mythgarthr and Aelfrice with that one soul-shattering visit to Muspel behind him. So where he was only able to look up to Skai before, in his dreams, he now should have free passage between there, Mythgarthr & Aelfrice while being tormented from below by the beings of Muspel... with heady glimpses of Kleos and the occasional word of wisdom descending directly from Elysion providing the impetus to his "Wizardly" progression.

I believe Niflheim should forever be shut off to him for the simple reason that his experiences negate its existence... unless, nah!
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 99.126.164.88
Posted on Wednesday, January 18, 2012 - 04:49 pm:   

Let me finally re-aquaint myself with the novel, as I've been meaning to, Stevie, so I can answer this properly, instead of giving a half-informed response... watch this space....
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 99.126.164.88
Posted on Thursday, January 19, 2012 - 03:13 am:   

I'll stick this in both places too....

I think you're spot on in this analysis, Stevie. I guess you could simplify it somewhat: Mythgarthr is "Middle Earth," or the fantasy world proper: the default; Aelfrice is "elfland," the land of the elves, outside the time of Mythgarthr. One day in Aelfrice is, what... years in Mythgarthr?

I suspect Skai—don't know this, but just a feeling—will be the new fantasy world proper, and it will correspond roughly with the land of the Norse; above that, Kleos, will be the land of the Norse Gods. But I'm very unsure about this, and will probably be soon proved wrong.

The highest, Elysion, is "Heaven," and the lowest, Niflheim, is "Hell"—which is why we get so little of either in the first book, mere glimpses and hints and rumors. Muspel?... Yes, the dark world, but not sure where it squares up in my analogy—yours is better.

The one spoiler I got you might as well have: Alvit is a valkyrie. Or does the book already specifically say that? Either way, she is.

It's wonderful how Wolfe has left us with so much at the close of Part I, and yet... at the edge of a whole new world of wonder and the unknown: I have very little idea of what could come next! I just hope he doesn't lose the wonderful characters all, especially the non-human ones (I love how Gylf the "dog" and Mani the "cat" are by turns hilarious, and horrifying... even Uri and Baki are funny, enticing, yet never not terrifying, too...).

I also admire (though during, I get frustrated!) how Wolfe simultaneously makes things as easy and simple and flowing as any Hemingway story... and yet, doesn't do all the thinking, deducting, figuring-out, for the reader (like, well, Hemingway, too). In fact, Wolfe leaves so much for the reader to have to piece together, to assemble, to conclude, to deduce, to hypothesize. He's always like that, dammit!
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Thursday, January 19, 2012 - 11:55 am:   

What I'm finding I love most about Wolfe's writing style, and intellectually stimulating rather than frustrating, is the very holding back of information from the reader you speak of, Craig, so we are made to have to work it out for ourselves - or give up in exasperation if the challenge is too great (I would suspect). It's a brilliant conceit that makes his books as engaging as any mystery or puzzle. I call this respecting the reader's intelligence and making them engage with the story and the characters and the world he has created on more than the obvious levels that most other authors are happy with.

He must sit down and work out his narrative in intricate detail then create a narrator and write down in the first person only what that narrator could be aware of leaving us to fill in all the gaps. At the point Able is composing his missive to his brother, Ben, it is clear he doesn't have all the answers, and is honest about the things he has forgotten or would rather not share, so I would guess we will be left equally bemused at the end of 'The Wizard'.

I loved how he left so many ambiguities hanging in the air at the end of 'An Evil Guest' and would single out that element of teasing restraint as what makes his books so hugely satisfying and compulsive. They haunt the intellect, they demand discussion and no doubt repay countless re-reads. The mark of a great writer, imo.
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Thursday, January 19, 2012 - 12:51 pm:   

Craig, Able must return to Mythgarthr in some sort of tangible form as he has already alluded to events that happen there, in which he plays a physical part, that we have yet to reach in the narrative!

So I've no doubt all the old favourite characters will have just as big a part in 'The Wizard'. I can't wait to see what Org has been up to, for one, and who else he may have eaten. While Gylf & Mani are such memorable comic creations - the funniest cat & dog rivalry in literature, perhaps? - that he couldn't possibly deprive us of them. I agree about the Aelf maidens, Uri & Baki, they are irresistibly mischievous, intensely erotic (the way they instruct him in three-way love while changing their womanly forms on a whim didn't half get me going) and above all they scare the hell out of me! Blood-sucking agents of Setr and no mistake but I'd be as helpless in their arms as Able was.
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 99.126.164.88
Posted on Friday, January 20, 2012 - 07:20 am:   

I agree with all this, Stevie. Like the best writers, he makes things seem effortless and "tossed-off," but that's all surely illusion. Sometimes his puzzles can be maddening—three particularly powerful short stories that come to mind in this regard are "The Detective of Dreams," "Game in the Pope's Head," and "Forleson," none of which I've been able to piece together adequately—but they're never not rewarding.

I've come to believe that yes, Able must return to Mythgarthr in some capacity, and Wolfe will work it all out there, I'm sure. Besides, like you say... how could you lose Mani, Gylf, Uri & Baki, Org—and the humans, too? Will be fascinating as well, to see what (I can only assume) will be a guiding quest in Part II for Able: no longer seeking the sword Eterne, what can it be?...
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Friday, January 20, 2012 - 12:13 pm:   

Don't dare start 'The Wizard' without me, Craig.

I'm itching to get stuck in as well even if I am still reading 'Imajica', which, incidentally, has cranked up the suspense levels no end in the final third as Clive starts pulling all the multitudinous plot strands together. A bloody awesome achievement that, I say again, dwarfs anything else he has written!
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 99.126.164.88
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2012 - 04:36 pm:   

Up through chapter 4, Stevie... we're back in Mythgarthr, and it does feel like a continuation of the first's storyline, though who knows, so early on?... Fascinating recap by Able; and the Gnostic structure of this universe he paints, must be more than accidental. It's easy to pick up the pieces and keep going, despite some head-scratching at first... good to be back in a Wolfe world....
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2012 - 05:03 pm:   

Is this going to be a recap of Able's quest, with Toug as the quester, and Able as his spirit guide do you think?

Is that the nature of Able's new journey of discovery? To grow on the spiritual plane (toward what?) by reliving his own experiences amongst the mortals and giving Toug the benefit of his wisdom. But what I really want to know is how Wolfe is going to reconcile all of this with Able's true identity back home on Earth?
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 99.126.164.88
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2012 - 05:26 pm:   

That would have to be a rather passive novel indeed, if so, Stevie. Would Wolfe write something like that? Must just keep reading to find out what the plan is here, I suppose....
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 82.29.252.215
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2012 - 06:32 pm:   

Toug does seem to have become the central point of empathy, so far, in a way none of the supporting characters did in the first Book. Able is so much above and removed from them now that he has become largely an observer of the action. All very weird and intriguing.
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Weber (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 82.145.216.27
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2012 - 09:53 pm:   

He dies at the end.
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 99.126.164.88
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2012 - 10:08 pm:   

You know, I'm beginning to think that ducky-man who hates you might have a point....
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Weber (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 82.145.209.167
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2012 - 11:07 pm:   

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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 99.126.164.88
Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2012 - 03:49 am:   

Okay, I finished chapter 7, and am dizzied by the amount of characters and subplots... if they can be called "subplots." And the little details that get missed, or forgotten; e.g., the moan that Able mentions hearing, to Gerda, I couldn't remember myself; but indeed, the very last paragraph of Chapter 63 of The Knight it comes and goes, a "moan of fear" from the hedgerow. I'm seeing more how this is must indeed be a 2-part single novel, rather than 2 loosely (or so) connected distinct novels. Though the allegorical nature of these first 7 chapters so far, are more pronounced than the entire last novel altogether... hard to say where this novel is going ("going" isn't even the right term for this!), but I'm enjoying the ride so far....
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 99.126.164.88
Posted on Friday, February 03, 2012 - 07:17 am:   

It appears we have two story-lines, Stevie, going on chapter by chapter - Able's in and about Jotunland, and Toug's in the castle of the Angrborn. Chapter 9 reveals to us a famous former incarnation of Able's?... Fascinating, wonder if that will be revealed further, or touched on in some way later. There's so much going on, so many characters, and yet the story's pretty simple overall - the tone of the whole is surprisingly level and cool, almost clinical, but it fits excellently. Yeah, I'm really enjoying this so far!
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.157.22.253
Posted on Friday, February 03, 2012 - 10:47 am:   

What book are you talking about? I can't find the beginning to this.
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.157.22.253
Posted on Friday, February 03, 2012 - 10:48 am:   

Ah, I can - at the top of the thread. :-(
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.157.22.253
Posted on Friday, February 03, 2012 - 10:49 am:   

But, no - there's no author or anything. Please explain what this book is.
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Weber (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 194.66.23.11
Posted on Friday, February 03, 2012 - 10:49 am:   

Gene Wolfe
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 82.29.252.215
Posted on Friday, February 03, 2012 - 01:08 pm:   

**** MORE MAJOR SPOILERS ****

Finished Chapter 10 last night, Craig, and I think I've cracked what he's at... maybe.

'The Knight' was a straightforward quest on the material plane for the status of knighthood; a title, servants, a horse, weapons, armour, an insignia, and ultimately the sword, Eterne (his Holy Grail). By the accumulation of these things Able proved his manhood and, as we now know, paid the ultimate price in his battle with Grengarm.

After twenty years in Skai with the Valfather he is allowed to return, in apparently corporeal form, a short time after his death, with a fleeting visit to himself as a boy that he couldn't resist - the Dragon Knight in the mist. His return is sanctioned because of the band of friends he left behind about to face the Angrborn giants, but really Able wants to complete the true purpose of his quest, that drove him into knighthood in the first place - to find and win the love of the Aelf Queen, Disiri. It's all he's really ever cared about, deep down, more than knighthood, more than Eterne, even more than getting back to his old life on Earth.

I reckon that along the way we're going to see a gradual discarding or giving away of the material possessions he built up in 'The Knight' as he is forced to choose between loyalty to his comrades and his love for the Mossmaiden. Perhaps, once this cycle is complete, and he has come full circle, the way home will open for him again?

The main thing to remember when trying to fathom this book is that time runs differently in each of the Worlds. More slowly above and quicker below. Twenty years in Skai is but a few weeks in Mythgarthr and a few weeks there is but a split second in Aelfrice. That's why Toug hasn't aged and has retained his innocence so that he is a mirror image of what Able was when they parted away back at the start.

Without the list of names at the beginning this book would be near impossible to follow, given the host of characters, differing passages of time and unreliable narration, but I'm finding every time I go back to check who some incidental character is a little light bulb goes off in my head and one more piece of the jigsaw fits into place. I love this kind of reading experience!
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 82.29.252.215
Posted on Friday, February 03, 2012 - 01:22 pm:   

It's all the dropped hints of his experiences in Skai that I'm finding fascinating. Why is he unable or unwilling to narrate the events of his twenty years up there, that have clearly changed him in so many ways? Hmmm...
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 99.126.164.88
Posted on Friday, February 03, 2012 - 04:19 pm:   

Can't read that last post, Stevie, till I get through Chapter 10, the next one....

Tony, if you (or anyone) have to ask what this thread is about... then hie thyself away from this dread plain, forthwith.
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 99.126.164.88
Posted on Saturday, February 04, 2012 - 04:16 pm:   

I'm in agreement with you, Stevie, having finished Chpt. 10. And now, finally, an overall "plot" or direction is becoming clear, in but the story at least (making this ever more a 2-part single novel, rather than two connected stand-alones, I think).

The novel is sometimes difficult to read because Wolfe is constantly landing you smack-dab in medias res, and it's disorienting... but the prose is so clear and lucid, you go with it, and eventually he catches up to you, and all is explained. I'm myself still unclear about how Ulfa and Pouk ended up in that castle - like a dream, I don't know if I'm forgetting something I read already (in this novel or the earlier one), or encountering wholly new information. Rather than cheat and check, I'm just going with it for now, as I think Wolfe intends....

Yes, like you, Stevie, without that list at the beginning of the book/s, I'd be totally floundering! And, like you, every time I go back to refresh, refreshing is easy. This is indeed a reading "experience," and wildly entertaining for a fantasy novel so near-totally devoid of action (so far), and dominated by meandering (but fascinating) dialogue....
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 82.29.252.215
Posted on Saturday, February 04, 2012 - 07:08 pm:   

Ulfa & Pouk were captured by the giants about halfway through 'The Knight', after they split from Svon & Org, while Able was off conferring with that Angel, or whatever he was, by the pool in the woods. Able learned this from Gylf who managed to escape the giants and return to him. It was after this they encountered Mani for the first time in the witch's cabin. I'm pretty sure I remember that right.

Knowing what the Angrborn do to their male captives I really fear for what condition Pouk is in.
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 99.126.164.88
Posted on Wednesday, February 08, 2012 - 03:49 am:   

Finished Chapter 15, Stevie.. I feel like Wolfe's other literary creation, the Soldier in the Mist: every time I put this book down, I have to go back some pages and refresh my memory - there's so much going on! So many characters, so many scheming plots being laid, and the jumps in time/place/situation between Toug and Able are disorienting. Now, we've got a full murder mystery on our hands, too... sorta.... And through all the political intrigue and Machiavellian chicanery, Wolfe drops perfect pearls of wisdom, nonchalantly. I'm liking this more and more, the more it's making me work for it!
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 82.29.252.215
Posted on Wednesday, February 08, 2012 - 09:47 am:   

You're a bit ahead of me now, Craig. Yes, it's a much more cerebral and intense read than the more action and experience oriented first book. One I too am having to take my time with to get all of its subtleties and, as you say, intrigue. The difference between mastering Knighthood and mastering Wizardry. More anon.
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Thursday, February 09, 2012 - 04:34 pm:   

Putting on my Sherlock Holmes head for a second, Craig. As King Gilling was stabbed in the shoulder that automatically rules out all the smaller sized suspects, apart from Idnn & Mani who were perched there, and as we all know cats lack opposable thumbs this would appear to rule out Mani - unless he is as much of a shapeshifter as Gylf... or Setr, perhaps!

So applying Occam's Razor (always a dangerous tactic when approaching Gene Wolfe) the culprit is most likely to have been either a fellow giant (Thiazi springs to mind) or someone with the power of flight - which would automatically point the finger of suspicion at Baki. But as the Aelf are able to travel where they like at a whim I rather suspect her sister, Uri, may have blood on her hands instead. What do you think?
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Thursday, February 09, 2012 - 04:37 pm:   

And wasn't it a joy to see how Pouk avoided the male slave's usual fate! Cheered me up no end that did.
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Thursday, February 09, 2012 - 04:41 pm:   

You know I haven't experienced the old "switch the lights off, scream, lights on, corpse" routine in donkey's years. Yet further proof of what a master entertainer Wolfe is besides his unimpeachable literary credentials.
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Thursday, February 09, 2012 - 04:45 pm:   

And the sequence in which it is graphically spelled out to us how the giants impregnate human women. Christ, almighty! Talk about outdoing Clive Barker at his own game... urrgghh!!!!
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 99.126.164.88
Posted on Thursday, February 09, 2012 - 04:56 pm:   

Yes, that last was particularly sexually... "graphic" is too light a word. However, keep in mind: Baki is disguised as Idnn saying this, and is employing the Devil's tactics of painting a hellish picture so Toug will do what she wants... it might all be a fiction, what she describes....

But I cannot address anything else for now - must run! More anon.
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 82.29.252.215
Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2012 - 01:15 pm:   

Another marked difference between 'The Wizard' & 'The Knight' is how static the second book is turning out to be - at over halfway through now. All of the action, what little there has been, and the labyrinthine political and personal intrigue has been centred in and around King Gilling's castle. Not a bad thing, just surprising and somewhat disorienting after the wandering quest/exploration structure, with its constantly changing locales, of the first book. Again this ties in with the idea of intellectual and emotional growth as opposed to physical and experiential. We have a murder mystery tied in with Machiavellian political plotting from numerous different factions and Able seeing it all through his old inexperienced eyes by way of the surrogate youth, Toug, while unable to bring the new abilities he picked up in Skai to bear on the proceedings. Although apparently a corporeal incarnation he floats through the book very much like a ghost... an observer and adviser rather than a doer.

Where Gene Wolfe is going with all this I have no idea but it's certainly a gripping journey.
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 99.126.164.88
Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2012 - 04:16 pm:   

It is indeed much more "static," than the first, Stevie. Finished Chapter 18, and there's a sort of intentional inertia to the whole: characters, plots, drives. Toug discovers the Angrborns' tools being amassed, but no one can decide on whether they're important or not, or even worth destroying; there's brief tension in the conference between Schildstarr's side and Beel's, but it's lackluster; even Gilling doesn't properly die, but just sort of lies there. But the return of Disiri promises something coming and a wrap-up of sorts: "The game is nearly over.... Did you think it would go on forever?" This is the mid-point of the novel, and I think signals an acceleration for the whole. (Oh, and I personally vote for Thiazi having been the one that stabbed Gilling.)
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 99.126.164.88
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2012 - 07:16 pm:   

So I'm finally able (pun?) to get back to this novel, Stevie; just finished Chapter 21, which just crests me the half-way mark. In this chapter, we get a nice sort of "recap" of the story so far... and its mysteries. I list three: 1) Who (a) initially stabbed Gilling, then (b) finished him off in the courtyard? (I like how this was done, hearkening back to what you said: taking hoary old cliches - the murder now while everyone's back was turned to the battle with the Angrborns; or before, Uri on the verge of revealing the assassin's identity when she's suddenly interrupted by the "King of the Overcyns" - and reinvigorating them in a total non-traditional setting); 2) What is in the Room of Lost Loves? (though it looks like I'm about to find out in Chapter 22...); 3) What does "marigolds and manticores" mean? and why is it obviously important somehow?... As an added mystery, there's the very nature of Etela's mother Lynnet, who is more than she seems - I'm guessing (from the clues) she's either a Fury, or a Medusa... or maybe something of both?

Any which way... the story's ramping up nicely....
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
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Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 82.18.174.156
Posted on Friday, February 17, 2012 - 01:32 am:   

Just read Chapter 22, 'Lost Loves', and it's arguably the most beautiful sequence of the book so far, Craig, answering quite a few mysteries and confirming my suspicions about a number of characters. I can feel Wolfe cranking up the emotional stakes as we move towards the climax of this wondrous fantasy.
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
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Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Friday, February 17, 2012 - 11:36 am:   

And Chapter 23 is probably the most exciting. We're building up a head of steam now.

I'm still going with my flying suspect, Craig, although it is now obvious Schildstarr had most to gain from King Gilling's demise I believe that to be a red herring.
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

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Posted From: 99.126.164.88
Posted on Friday, February 17, 2012 - 03:55 pm:   

Read Chapter 22, and yes, quite beautifully rendered, even the writing changing to match the events; when you come out of the room, it seems like indeed you've exited a dream. Some questions posed above by me answered... some new ones (Mani's lost love? probably his old haunts, as he explained earlier in the novel).

I'm still of the opinion Thiazi is the first attempted murderer, if not the second actual one as well. And who is the "invisible creature" seen lurking around the castle? Mani's former mistress? Org?... or could it be someone/thing else?...
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
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Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Friday, February 17, 2012 - 04:37 pm:   

It would seem that Able did have a parallel incarnation in Mythgarthr aside from his former existence as a boy back on Earth. And the Aelf maidens, Baki & Uri, now appear in a much more villainous light, given their diet of human flesh. I have always suspected they were agents of Setr, and not to be trusted, and Able's eyes have now been opened to their schemes it would seem. I suspect the same of his beloved Disiri and would even point the finger of suspicion there rather than at Thiazi.
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
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Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Friday, February 17, 2012 - 04:42 pm:   

And after all the attempts at diplomacy and political double-dealing it would seem War with the Angrborn is now inevitable and that this will comprise the climactic chapters of the book.
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Craig (Craig)
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Posted From: 99.126.164.88
Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2012 - 06:38 pm:   

Now through Chapter 23 (reading slower of late than I anticipated), and I agree with your assessments, Stevie. Uri & Baki have certainly become a shade more sinister; and maybe I'm missing the significance of Vil, but he seems to be being built up to be more than he appears?...

One small item I was confused about, but maybe I'm not reading close enough (and God knows this book is byzantine as it is!): wasn't Idnn with Beel and the others outside Utgard? So after Gilling was killed and she was suing the new King, Schildstarr, for basically getting herself to a nunnery elsewhere... that wasn't her, right? It was Uri or Baki disguised as Idnn? Or did she get back into the castle and I missed it somehow? Geez, this is a difficult novel to lose your way along!
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

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Posted From: 82.18.174.156
Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2012 - 07:18 pm:   

That confused me too, Craig! I'm almost tempted to look up a detailed recap online but instead I'm going to treat the book like an illogical fragmentary dream until I've finished it... and then do some research. His books are so dense and tricksy, mesmerisingly so, that I can see future courses in Wolfology being offered in Universities!

Btw his cosmology chimes perfectly with my own - as laid out in the Holy Texts of the Church of Steviology and currently being grappled with over on the 'Garden of Earthly Delights' thread.
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

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Posted From: 99.126.164.88
Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2012 - 08:05 pm:   

I've not been following too closely that thread, Stevie... though I do like and am amenable to the fragments of cosmology that come through Wolfe's in this current novel. Which is, deep deep down, even touching the Roman Catholic in him (e.g., the offhand reference to St. Michael).
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

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Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Monday, February 20, 2012 - 01:04 pm:   

I had another of my flashes of possible insight on going back and reading Able's instructions to Ben at the start of the book again: "Remember that Disiri was a shapechanger, and all her shapes were beautiful." Has Disiri been with us all along in the form of Idnn, do you think?
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

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Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Monday, February 20, 2012 - 01:18 pm:   

Idnn was definitely in two places at once, inside the castle with her "husband", King Gilling, and outside with the approaching army, wasn't she? The time Mani hid inside the saddlebag to be carried out of the castle was to report to her, "his mistress". Yet Idnn was already inside the castle the whole time. She was even present, as well as being a chief suspect, when King Gilling was stabbed the first time. The Idnn outside must be the real Idnn, mustn't she?!
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

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Posted From: 99.126.164.88
Posted on Monday, February 20, 2012 - 03:53 pm:   

But no, Baki (it was Baki, right?), Stevie, remember her transforming into Idnn on the stairs, and relating to Toug the depraved sexual acts that would be performed on her by Gilling? And then... I think it was Mani, who said Baki enjoyed keeping that Idnn disguise, and was using it to fool Gilling into thinking "she" was there in the room with the King? Of course, the men in the castle, though, what did they think? Because wasn't Idnn whisked away during the confusion in the darkness when Gilling was first stabbed? It's just that this last time, when Idnn is there during the prelude to the escape, Able just mentions it all matter-of-factly, which is what throws one off.... Perhaps all shall be laid clear, but Wolfe rarely lays all clear in the end.
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

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Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Monday, February 20, 2012 - 04:01 pm:   

I'll have to go back and read the bit with the depraved sexual acts again, Craig, as I got a bit distracted about who was doing what to whom. So the Idnn in the castle, the one who married King Gilling, was really Baki in disguise... which means Idnn was never truly Queen. Is that right?

I firmly believe Baki was the one who stabbed the King under orders from Setr so as to foment War with the Angrborn.
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

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Posted From: 99.126.164.88
Posted on Monday, February 20, 2012 - 04:07 pm:   

No, Idnn was really married, but... ugh, I'm losing track myself now. Damn that Wolfe!

I'd go for Baki - she ill-disguised herself as the giantess during the party just before the stabbing, right? Talking to Thiazi? Both acting very suspiciously?... Perhaps they were both in on it....
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

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Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Monday, February 20, 2012 - 04:21 pm:   

But how do we know that it was really Idnn at the ceremony? She certainly never wanted to marry King Gilling and there was that time she confided in Uri while they were at camp, or was it Baki? These Aelf girls aren't half meddlesome. Able also instructs Ben at the beginning never to forget that the Aelf are liars. They're not half sexy though!
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

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Posted From: 99.126.164.88
Posted on Monday, February 20, 2012 - 04:45 pm:   

Yes, but it's one thing to fool giants, it's another to fool the entire ambassadorial party, and for Able to never even mention how anyone's in on it at all. I don't think that's the answer exactly... but I'm lost in confusion concerning all this at the moment anyway, so....
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

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Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2012 - 03:44 pm:   

Have you reached the bit where they've got lost in the fog (is it magical or natural?) while being pursued by the Angrborn, Craig? This is when the book really starts cranking up the excitement levels.
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
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Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2012 - 02:56 pm:   

I'm flying through the second half now, Craig, and it's right back in the free flowing adventure style of 'The Knight' but enriched by all the labyrinthine character intrigue. He's already started answering many of the long-standing puzzles and seems to be tying things up superbly well as we rush toward the conclusion. Marvellous stuff!! I'd say I'll be finished by the weekend.
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

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Posted From: 99.126.164.88
Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2012 - 03:30 pm:   

No, Stevie, I keep meaning to read more at a time, and keep getting distracted by life. I've only just finished Chapter 25, but I hope between today and tomorrow to make some serious headway. It has seriously picked up the pace! I'm looking forward to diving into it properly....
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Thursday, February 23, 2012 - 12:01 pm:   

Onto Chapter 28 now, Craig, and not much of the book left. I keep having to remind myself that this is all being related by Able to his real brother, Ben, back home on Earth. Even the parts of the story that he wasn't present for he narrates what he was told by the characters directly involved, which introduces whole new levels of unreliability and ambiguity to the narration.

Able admits he doesn't always tell the whole truth, as there are some things he is forbidden to relate and others he would rather omit due to embarrassment, and the same obviously holds true for the other characters, like Toug, who pass on to him their own unavoidably biased take on events. It's this quality of stringently lifelike narration - he never cheats in his character motivations - that makes Wolfe's storytelling so compulsive and mystifying. Reading him is like trying to follow witness statements in a court case and divine a semblance of the truth from what they say and what they don't say. Fascinating.
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Thursday, February 23, 2012 - 12:18 pm:   

You know what... the whole thing may be the self-aggrandising fantasy of an overly imaginative little boy thrust into an adult world of adventure, sex, violence and crushing responsibility! He wants his big brother, Ben, to think of him as he would have liked to have been - Sir Able of the High Heart. Maybe the real boy was Toug all along - he certainly acts more like a boy would. I'm dying to finish the book now for some kind of resolution to all this mystery.
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

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Posted From: 99.126.164.88
Posted on Thursday, February 23, 2012 - 05:13 pm:   

I'll make some good headway today, hopefully, Stevie. And catch up with you....

That's an "able" analysis of Able. (Abel? is that lurking herein somewhere, too?) Able's adherence to what we take as "knightly" virtues, force him to swerve into the politic, into even Machiavellian-isms. I like that analogy to the court-case; there is distantly here too, the sort of detached & analytical spiritualism (for lack of a better term) of Graham Greene, of that flavor. Almost like Greene's characters sans the incessant anxiety.

I like that every fantasy element that comes off initially as tossed off perhaps, as simply flung in carelessly from the rummage drawer of Fantasy, is actually explained or given context by Wolfe. From the small (Baki's hair floats like a ghost's because its lighter than air; giant angrborn bodies will generate more heat, so are confined to colder climates [hence Frost Giants]) to the sublime (the aelfs are subservient to man because lower planes of existence must worship those of the higher planes; hence the evil perversion of the aelfs and lower beings trying to exert control over those in Mythgarthr).

Yes, I too am dying to finish for the revealing of its mysteries, hoping Wolfe does answer them all clearly, never a sure bet.... (Someday, Stevie, I'd like you to read his Philip K. Dick-ian novella "Forlesen" [contained in CASTLE OF DAYS], and explain to me what the hell that maddeningly fascinating one was all about!)
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

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Posted From: 82.18.174.156
Posted on Thursday, February 23, 2012 - 10:51 pm:   

I agree this is a deeply spiritual book, Craig. I was only half joking when I said Wolfe's cosmology herein chimes with my own humble view of the universe.

The world he has created is encompassed by the One High God, who resides in Elysion, at its summit and the Void of Nothingness, Niflheim, at its base. But these two states actually come full circle co-existing in one and the same place as a perfect sphere. An all-knowing consciousness that spans all of time and space would exist in a perpetual zero state of static ennui unless it were to allow its consciousness to fragment into endless constituent parts that are the beings who make up all the lesser worlds within the great sphere of existence; Kleos - the realm of demi-gods or angels, Skai - the spirit world inhabited by the dead, Mythgarthr - the physical world of mortal beings, Aelfrice - the world of the imagination inhabited by the beings created by mortal minds & Muspel - the world of unknowable reality beyond even the imagination. That's how I read it.

Yet all of this cosmology is apart from our world, early 21st Century Earth, where Able was abducted from in the first place. The inference being that Able is being guided through an archetypal symbolic representation of overarching reality. He is travelling through the collective unconscious and I wouldn't be at all surprised if the whole thing turns out to be a dream. Infinite worlds within infinite worlds yet still only One vast consciousness aware of absolutely everything but unable to look itself in the face.

You'll see what I mean when you've read a few more chapters.
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
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Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Friday, February 24, 2012 - 11:30 am:   

Finished Chapter 32 now. I wonder will Gene ever return to this world? There's so much depth and fascinating background details, that are only skimmed over but that fit perfectly into the mythology, that I can't see everything being resolved in the few chapters that remain. He really is a fascinating conjurer of worlds.
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

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Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Friday, February 24, 2012 - 11:44 am:   

I wasn't surprised to learn that Gene Wolfe is an avid Tolkien fan and exchanged correspondence with the great man early in his writing career. He shares Tolkien's almost obsessive attention to detail and penchant for spiritual allegory dressed in the imagery of myth.

But their style of storytelling couldn't be any more different which is why Wolfe stands out head and shoulders above the plethora of Tolkien imitators. Tolkien unfolded his tales as biblically styled grand legends dictated with precision from on high while Wolfe has his characters relate their own personal stories from within the mythological framework, leaving out or only hinting at as many details as they elaborate on.

Are they the two greatest epic fantasists who have ever lived? Possibly so...
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Craig (Craig)
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Posted From: 99.126.164.88
Posted on Friday, February 24, 2012 - 03:36 pm:   

Epic fantasists? Probably so... I guess if I'm searching my brain for another, then.... It sounds to me like you never liked much THE SWORD OF SHANNARA.

But okay, wait, I didn't get to read as much as I wanted yesterday, but I did finish Chapter 26, which should have been titled "Whiplash". Okay, let me see if I get this straight now....

As they're dealing with the fog and the looming Angrborns, suddenly Able is whisked by Uri to the Isle of Glas, where Toug, Vil, Lynette, and Etela have already been brought by Kulili; of whom, when Able sees her, has a horrendous rush of fear. He sees and speaks to "Garsecg," the name Setr uses when he's in Aelf form; Garsecg urges Able to kill Kulili, and when Able goes to do it, is converted to Kulili's side, by something he's shown that we don't know yet. Then Garsecg turns into Setr and attacks in rage, when Garvaon and Svon show up, killing Garvaon in the process, but finally dying under the onslaught of the collected others: Setr is now dead. A thread of sorts is wrapped up. In the course of it, Able is about to make some revelation about Garvaon - maybe that he killed Gilling after all? But he's dead before it comes out, so I assume it's coming up, or whatever it was, is....

But don't tell me if I'm right.
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

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Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Friday, February 24, 2012 - 03:58 pm:   

Stephen Donaldson came close without quite matching Tolkien's sense of genuine myth-making but in the sci-fi field Frank Herbert is every bit their equal, if not a better epic fantasist. But then I'm only getting into Gene Wolfe and still have his most famous works to read. The fact I'm already comparing him to the fantasy guvnor is just about the highest praise it's possible for me to give.

I thought Able spelled out the truth about Garvaon quite openly well before the fight with Garsecg/Setr, Craig. I saw that chapter as bringing two long-standing plot threads to a conclusion. He's been wrapping up others since... and that's not telling you if you're right or wrong after reading Chapter 26.
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

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Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Tuesday, February 28, 2012 - 04:20 pm:   

I've reached the final revelation, Craig, and it is staggering for the profound simplicity with which Wolfe communicates the answer to life, the universe and everything. As I have been struggling to do of late. His view of reality is bang on the money!

I should be finished this momentous tome tonight or tomorrow.
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

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Posted From: 99.126.164.88
Posted on Tuesday, February 28, 2012 - 04:36 pm:   

Me too! I finished Chapter 29, and am a bit into 30, up to the point where the helm is discovered to reveal the true aspects of our luscious Aelf maidens and Org; i.e., dung and dead goat for one, swarming vermin the other. The novel already took a jarring left turn in tone when Able and the others left Utgard, and he took over Redhall: it almost felt like we were in a whole other novel, with a different pacing and new characters appearing. I do really like and am moved too, by the wisdom, the philosophy/theology, the "messages" Wolfe seems to be communicating herein... dropping them casually and about "like a glittering prize," to quote the old 80's song (whose entire set of lyrics are eerily apt for this novel)....
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Tuesday, February 28, 2012 - 05:25 pm:   

I think I have about 2 or 3 chapters left and the feeling is very much one of wrapping up character arcs and bidding farewell. The major plot threads and big reveal would appear to be all done and dusted, magnificently so.

Don't know about you but I intend to have a box of hankies beside me in bed tonight... erm, for purely lachrymose reasons of course!
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Wednesday, February 29, 2012 - 10:53 am:   

2 chapters left and I will definitely be finished it today. After that some serious researching and head scratching will be called for. Can you give me the link to that site that goes through the book in detail, Craig? I'm pleased to say I got the cosmology right but the mass of incidental symbolic detail throughout the story could take a lifetime to fathom without some help!
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Wednesday, February 29, 2012 - 11:36 am:   

The more I think over the meandering structure of this book, with its experiential and moral character progression, the more I am reminded of a kind of philosophical updating of 'The Pilgrim's Progress' from an infinitologist's point of view.

Make no mistake, this is a very important work of high symbolic literature in which plot and character are wholly subservient to message. But Wolfe is such a conjurer with words and images that the book is never less than grippingly readable. One is made to feel genuine awe at his ability.
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 99.126.164.88
Posted on Wednesday, February 29, 2012 - 03:20 pm:   

Alas, I didn't get as far as... well, anything yesterday. But I hope to tonight!

The link is to the google listing of the book, and it has but fragments from it, like an Amazon sampling: you'd have to buy it to get the whole thing. But maybe there's enough here to help?... it's the first one on the list here:

http://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&hl=en&q=gene+wolfe+the+wizard+knight+compan ion&btnG=
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Wednesday, February 29, 2012 - 03:33 pm:   

Hey, Craig, I didn't know you enjoyed word games!

I'm a Scrabble addict and been playing on ISC [Internet Scrabble Club] for donkey's years. I can't access the link in work here but look up "ISC scrabble download" on Google for the free download and challenge me to a game anytime. You wouldn't be my first Californian mate on there. My super-imaginative handle is "StephenW" and we can message agreed times for games and then waffle live at the same time. I warn you I take no prisoners!
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Wednesday, February 29, 2012 - 03:58 pm:   

That looks useful, Craig. I never buy "Companion" books, though, as I've little enough space for the ones I have, but they can be useful to borrow when trying to get one's head around cyclopean epics by the likes of Tolkien, Howard, Barker or Wolfe. Now there's a possible use for an e-reader!
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Wednesday, February 29, 2012 - 04:23 pm:   

For starters: what does the colour sequence; RED, BROWN, WHITE, GOLD, BLUE & BLACK represent? And the fates; to be crushed by stone, to be trodden into the mire, to die at the hands of one's followers, to perish in a golden fortress, to drown and to be run through with one's father's sword?

These seemingly skimmed over elements are far too specific and writ large at crucial points of Able's progression to be anything other than meaningful.

I know what Wolfe is at on the broader scale of this work and concur with his reading of the universe (our view of the wood being as one) but on these smaller incidental details (the trees, as it were) I am thoroughly baffled, intrigued and, yes, haunted in a way only the greatest of literature has ever touched me before. In many ways this is as profound a work as my "Read of Last Year", Dostoevsky's, 'The Devils'.
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 99.126.164.88
Posted on Wednesday, February 29, 2012 - 04:55 pm:   

Gotta jet, so will have to respond to this later, Stevie - hopefully after I've ventured farther along into the novel....

I'll look up that link, but what's easier, of course: do you have a smart phone? Can you download "Words With Friends"? But then, would that work internationally?... hmm. Well, either way.

And I don't take prisoner either... but that's usually because I'm being held captive....
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Wednesday, February 29, 2012 - 05:06 pm:   

Hmmm... an interesting slip there. I said Howard when I meant Herbert! One would think the works of Robert E. Howard far removed from such a symbolic epic as 'The Wizard Knight', despite the similarity of the trappings. And, being open to these kind of messages from beyond, even when they come from within, I think my next fantasy read will be the complete Solomon Kane. Sorted.
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 82.18.174.156
Posted on Wednesday, February 29, 2012 - 09:38 pm:   

Finished it. In bits.
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 99.126.164.88
Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2012 - 05:28 pm:   

Just finished Chapter 34, Uri leaving Able still "locked" in that cell, after the fight with the undead knights, being imprisoned by Arnthor, his and Morcaine's background in Aelfrice, etc... the novel does feel, judging from where I've come, to be indeed "meandering," but yes like Pilgrim's Progress meanders, or even Poldy's in Dublin: with a carefully constructed design in view. I'm headed towards it, inexorably, but can't perceive it clearly now... I can only trust Wolfe to eventually guide me there....
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2012 - 05:48 pm:   

You've read 'Ulysses', Craig! I am impressed!! One of these days I might get round to it myself.
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 99.126.164.88
Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2012 - 05:52 pm:   

Read it back in university. It stands as one of the more difficult reads of my life... or was then, wonder what I'd think now?... it's like an extreme workout on the mind, but also a truly beautiful and great novel....

You want impressed though? I actually read all of FINEGANS WAKE!

Now what would have been truly impressive is... if I had actually understood a damn word ("word"?) of it....
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2012 - 05:54 pm:   

Able clearly represents everyman in this novel, and, I suspect, Gene Wolfe himself, on a more personal level. All the vast multitude of supporting characters I imagine must represent specific lessons in life that tend to be common to us all. The kind of individuals we all come across and learn from in our trek through the wilderness of material individuality. That is the only base from which to approve this novel that makes sense to me.
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2012 - 05:56 pm:   

For "approve" read "approach".
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Friday, March 02, 2012 - 04:54 pm:   

I know I keep harping on about Heinlein but I am convinced Wolfe is a fan and, in many ways, 'The Wizard Knight' is almost a reworking of one of Bob's best novels, 'Glory Road' (1963).

In that book a disfigured Vietnam veteran (Bob could already see how that fledgling conflict would turn out), complete with weapons, is magically transported to a similarly stereotypical fantasy world - full of dragons, witches and ogres, etc - and is told by a beautiful queen that he must embark on the Glory Road to recover the Egg of the Phoenix. Along the way he encounters all manner of odd characters, who either help or hinder him, including a long passage of political intrigue in a royal court, and at the end of his quest is accepted into the ranks of the immortals.

Coincidence you may think... but for the fact that he is given a new name at the beginning of his journey (Scar rather than Able) and along the way gains a sword that has magical properties once unsheathed - and that he grows to love and trust more than any tommy gun or automatic - and at the end of the book the Glory Road is revealed to be an allegory for "Life's Adventure".

And, as if that wasn't enough, Disiri actually ribs Able in the closing chapters about the quest she sent him on; "Would you rather I'd sent you after the Egg of the Phoenix?"

'Glory Road' is perhaps the best pulp sword & sorcery novel I have read - it truly is wonderful - while 'The Wizard Knight' is one of the best literary epics, irrespective of genre.

Wolfe, like all great authors, learned his trade from the masters who preceded him (even corresponding with Tolkien) and, rather than copying them, built on their legacy. He has long since joined them as one of the greats!

...and I say that on the strength of only 2 novels and a handful of short stories.
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 99.126.164.88
Posted on Saturday, March 03, 2012 - 08:01 am:   

Finished Chapter 36, so now very close to the end. Its meanderings accelerate, as they go to the lowest of the low worlds in but a single chapter, then back to a world now ravaged by war, and a gathering together of most all of the characters we've met along the way so far.... I think you're right, this is a novel that seems personal - I don't even mean to Wolfe (of course, I do mean that), because what it must be is totally hidden; but it feels personal, and even reflective, beyond its fantastic trappings. It does revisit (as I've said) Wolfe's recurrent fascination for characters who seek the heaven of pure ideals (often embodied in elusive characters); but this is almost a trope for the genre Fantasy itself. Like you say, Stevie, it is a two-part novel that seems to transcend that genre entirely; far less odd than A VOYAGE TO ARCTURUS or PILGRIM'S PROGRESS, it's an allegorical novel nevertheless; and would require probably another read, at some later date, to get what's missed the first time through.

I know I must have read GLORY ROAD sometime in my distant past... but actually, I'm not so sure - either way, I remember nothing. Your detective work seems more than conclusive to me: if there's that line by Disiri's here (and I remember that line and wondered about it, but thought it just referred to any impossible quest), that seems to me a clear pointing arrow to Heinlein's novel, and perhaps some of the clues that might unlock this one? It might be a reason for me to seek that one out soon, if this is fresh in my mind....
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 82.18.174.156
Posted on Saturday, March 03, 2012 - 09:26 pm:   

I must find a copy of 'A Voyage To Arcturus'. As soon as I read your mention of the title I remembered Ramsey recommending that novel and author (can't remember the name) to me at some stage in the past. I think he said Robert Aickman was a big fan of the book.
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 82.18.174.156
Posted on Saturday, March 03, 2012 - 09:29 pm:   

And did you get the geometric explanation of infinite worlds within infinite worlds! I didn't half get a smug grin on my face when I read that.

Wouldn't I just love to sit down in the pub with Gene Wolfe sometime and discuss philosophy.
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 99.126.164.88
Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2012 - 05:06 am:   

Just finished the chapter where Lothur - was he Arnthor the whole time? maybe I've not had this explained yet - offers Able three wishes... things certainly seem to be reaching the boiling point, with mere pages to go. By the way: Have I ever had explained to me yet who killed Gilling? Or is that coming up? Or did I miss it? I hope Wolfe explains some of these darn mysteries....

A VOYAGE TO ARCTURUS, by David Lindsay, is a most peculiar allegorical/gnostic novel. It starts quite sanely, sorta, in the contemporary world (of the 1920's)... it quite soon enters a surreal dreamscape, and never leaves it. Whereas THE KNIGHT/WIZARD is an allegorical world you could say of brightness and fascination and high fantasy, ARCTURUS is by contrast gloomy, wholly alien, brutal, terrifying, even primitive. It has the distinction of being (at least at one time) one of prominent literary critic Harold Bloom's favorite and most read novels (somewhere I had come across him admitting he had read ARCTURUS something like more than 100 times[!]; as it is, Bloom wrote his sole fictional work, his own gnostic fantasy novel [Bloom, a {not so} closet gnostic-ist], heavily influenced by this one book... a fantasy that must be so terrible, it's never been reprinted and is impossible to find); I really must go back and find the book he spoke about all this, because he did a detailed breakdown of the novel's meanings - not that he's right, but the novel, much more so than KNIGHT/WIZARD, cries out for some explaining!

Stevie, tell you what, I'll mail you my copy of ARCTURUS, a Dell paperback in fine, clean condition - yours to keep - it would be my pleasure. Remind me of your address again, and I'll get it out to you on Monday.
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 82.18.174.156
Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2012 - 05:45 am:   

Yes, Craig, it was spelled out who killed King Gilling back when they fought Setr in Aelfrice... it was a character who was present but hadn't spoken since the murder which should have drawn our attention to him/her. Able himself worked it out but decided not to do anything about it - given the circumstances.
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 82.18.174.156
Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2012 - 05:48 am:   

Wow!! That's really very kind of you, Craig!
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 99.126.164.88
Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2012 - 04:31 pm:   

Hmm. Then it must have been Garvaon, who died fighting Setr, right? Keeping track of all these things is like keeping track of a dream... which appears in this last chapter, 38, showing a highway in our world, and Able sensing himself in a hurtling ambulance: it appears it shall be revealed he's been dead all this time? hallucinating though an injury? Mere steps remain, to reveal all.

These lines moved me: "...I was in the tree-tops, fifty feet up. If the twigs and small limbs that held me back had not been so thick—had not been impenetrable—I would have fallen. No sooner had I understood this than I reached the edge, standing high in a great tree and looking out across the open countryside." More wisdom, from Wolfe.
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 99.126.164.88
Posted on Monday, March 05, 2012 - 04:35 pm:   

A rather abrupt, but fitting, end to the novel. As Able becomes somewhat of a Jesus figure, and is allowed to have his Disiri after all. Set up for a sequel, if Wolfe so desired/s, since he'll go back to novels years later to continue them... but I don't think another one's needed here... sad to bid them all farewell, too....
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 82.18.174.156
Posted on Monday, March 05, 2012 - 09:44 pm:   

And such a shock to learn Able's real name right at the very end when he signs the missive. He remembered it all along but had accepted that existence as over and done with. He died as a boy back on Earth and the ambulance he glimpsed in the dream was taking his body away - from the scene of a crime, perhaps?

Arthur Ormsby rang an immediate bell with me but I can't think why. Searches on Wiki & Google have shed no light - other than a lot of genealogical stuff mostly related to Northern Ireland (by happy chance).

The bit about Michael (as in the Archangel) having found a way has made me wonder...
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 82.18.174.156
Posted on Monday, March 05, 2012 - 09:51 pm:   

And, yes, Able openly accuses Garvaon of the two attacks on King Gilling and then tells him his secret is safe and that he does not consider what he did a crime! This is just before Garvaon is killed by Setr which Able had already seen ordained in a vision.

Later on Idnn tells him that she knows that he knows who the guilty party was and asks him outright to tell her. Able refuses, even though she is Queen, saying that he had promised not to tell. This is one of many incidents in the later stages of the book in which he is forced by circumstances to break his knightly code of honour by putting loyalty to his friends first.
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 82.18.174.156
Posted on Tuesday, March 06, 2012 - 06:58 pm:   

That 'Wizard Knight Guide' is useful, Craig. According to them the name "Arthur Ormsby" is code for Arthur Pendragon, "orm" being an old Viking word for snake, worm or dragon. So Eterne is Excalibur and Able is revealed as a modern reincarnation of King Arthur - it would seem.
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 99.126.164.88
Posted on Wednesday, March 07, 2012 - 04:32 am:   

Interesting. I remember reading... there, or someone's take somewhere, that actually a lot of the terms used in the book aren't made up at all, but old or archaic terms for what we think they are. Like "Valfather," is an existing name for Odin; etc.

You know, Wolfe loves playing with time (someday in the future, when you've read the Book of the New Sun four books, and finally hit the fifth, The Urth of the New Sun, you will see what I mean!); and I wonder if he's not posing, in this two-parter, that not only does time run at different speeds... but also, in different places?... So that regular old American boy Arthur Ormsby can also be King Arthur in a myth-world that wraps around becomes integrated into our past?... Who knows?

Well, at least there's a reason why Wolfe doesn't just spell out that name for us, Gilling's assassin! I expected Wolfe wasn't being maddeningly coy, but had a reason behind his madness....
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 82.18.174.156
Posted on Wednesday, March 07, 2012 - 12:38 pm:   

Did you go back and read that chapter leading up to the fight with Setr, Craig?

Able accuses Garvaon without actually pointing the finger and saying, "You stabbed King Gilling!" It's more "I know what you did, both times, and why you did it but your secret is safe with me as I do not consider you to have committed any crime."

Garvaon merely nods and then, later, when he is dying, admits his love for Idnn. He killed Gilling to save Idnn from the horrible fate that would have faced her as the King's spouse and, erm, bed partner... I shudder myself when I think of it. Yecch!
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 99.126.164.88
Posted on Wednesday, March 07, 2012 - 04:37 pm:   

No, I had remembered that scene, but kept waiting for more solid, concrete spelling-out. I'm still a tiny bit annoyed he didn't do that, but... only a tiny bit. It all makes sense, of course.

The novel did end quite "fantastically," didn't it, now that I think of it? The good happily, the bad, unhappily. For the most part.
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 82.18.174.156
Posted on Thursday, March 08, 2012 - 12:15 am:   

More spelling out would have completely negated the poignancy of the scene, Craig.

The ending, to me, proved that Able had finally attained his own version of heaven and that everything he had experienced since being abducted by the Aelf was in fact his own creation. The infinite world within his own eternal consciousness.
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 82.18.174.156
Posted on Friday, March 09, 2012 - 04:32 pm:   

Got your email. Thanks, Craig.

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