| Author | Message | ||
     Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.29.255.62 |
Hi Ramsey. I heard somewhere that you're not a fan of Nigel Kneale's Beasts - is that true? I only ask because I've finally caught up with them and found them compelling and occasionally terrifying. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.8.22.245 |
I must admit I thought he'd lost his edge by then. | ||
| Stevie Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
I'd advice rewatching them, Ramsey. The series was a revelation to me when first watched on DVD a couple of years ago. To my mind this is how to present the supernatural as serious, intelligent and subtle character based drama on television. We will probably never see their like again. | ||
| Stevie Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
advise... | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.29.255.62 |
I'd disagree, Ramsey. I've found them powerful, psychologically compelling dramas. | ||
| Stevie Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
Agreed. Have you watched the bonus one-off "Against The Crowd" episode, 'Murrain' (1975), Gary? It had me hungering to watch the rest of that series and demonstrated just what a fine TV dramatist Nigel Kneale was at that period. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.29.255.62 |
Yes, mate. The witch one. Superb. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.8.22.245 |
I did see "Baby" at the Cornerhouse quite recently, and I thought the writing of some early scenes embarrassingly bad. So did quite a lot of the audience, audibly, I fear. | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
I think the problem with "Beasts" is that it seems quite aged now - in terms of special effects and what we're used to seeing on TV nowadays. But if the viewer can see beyond that to the brilliant writing, well, my term "brilliant writing" says what I think of all Kneale's work really.  | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
In fact, I'd love to see someone who knows what they're doing in terms of TV supernatural shows get hold of some of Kneale's work and re-do it for today's TV audience. That would be awesome! | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.8.18.67 |
I must admit I didn't have the same problem with The Stone Tape, which I still love despite the rudimentary special effects. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.29.255.62 |
Yes, I've said before that The Stone Tape is begging to be remade. | ||
| John Llewellyn Probert (John_l_probert) Username: John_l_probert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 80.192.128.145 |
I'm currently showing Kate the 1978 QUATERMASS and I think some of the writing in there is still very strong, albeit steamrollered out a bit for the nearly 4 hour running time. It also allows Kneale to go on a bit too much in a rather curmudgeonly manner about his obvious dislike for most of humanity. But I was trying hard to think - has British TV done anything properly worthwhile original and highbrow SF-wise since this? | ||
| Stevie Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
'Quatermass' was one of the absolute pinnacles of 1970s British TV drama. Bettered only, in the sci-fi field, by the original 'Survivors'. I haven't seen it since but every scene is engrained in my memory. John Mills was magnificent in his last great role and the plot and atmosphere is pure late period Lovecraft. Harrowing, touching and unforgettably haunting in equal measure it was as much influenced by John Wyndham's 'The Midwich Cuckoos' & John Ford's 'The Searchers' as by any perceived criticism of 60s hippiedom. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.29.255.62 |
Ramsey, do you mean the dialogue between that patronising husband and his wife in 'Baby'? It is pretty broad. | ||
| Stevie Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
And entirely typical of all horror fiction, cinema and TV at the time. I believe Kneale was commenting upon the accepted conventions of the genre as they then stood (ala 'Rosemary's Baby') and that the entire play was a deliberate deconstruction of the form. 'Baby' is one of the most truly unsettling "haunted house" dramas ever committed to the screen, imo. The effect is admirably underplayed and cumulative and, to be properly appreciated nowadays, should really only be viewed alone or with a like-minded partner or an audience who know what to expect from 70s TV. Like classic period 'Doctor Who' or 'Star Trek' or silent cinema or even Hitchcock one should avoid the intensifying effect on the apparent datedness of a visual work by not experiencing it with an unappreciative audience who are coming to it fresh on the back of the bombastic shite we are deluged with nowadays in the name of "popular entertainment". These shows need to be allowed to get under one's skin and entertain by the power of their ideas and storytelling. 'Beasts' is a magnificent series. Try it again at home, Ramsey, with the lights off and see if you don't experience a creeping frisson of dread just when you least expect it. | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
>>...and see if you don't experience a creeping frisson of dread just when you least expect it.<< I certainly find that with the one about the rats - is it called "After Barty's Party"? The fact that the special effects were so constrained there (nothing more than scratching noises) makes it all the more powerful imo. The tension and creeping hysteria/paranoia of the protagonists is quite terrifying. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.29.255.62 |
Entirely agree, Caroline. That scene in which the rats, off camera, devour the neighbours is immensely powerful. | ||
| Stevie Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 82.18.174.156 |
What made that episode doubly memorable, for me, was the gradual shifting of power between the two leads and how it confounded viewer expectations at the time. The neurotic, highly strung housewife jumping at shadows and the commanding businessman husband, master of all he surveys, ever so subtly switch into a strong-willed and resourceful woman of action and a cringing wretch divested of power in the sanctity of his own castle. It is a masterclass in psychological horror worthy of Ramsey Campbell himself, imo. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.29.255.62 |
Indeed, Stevie. And the ending of 'What Big Eyes' is chilling psychologically - the daughter's hallucinatory vision. | ||
| Stevie Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
What I loved about 'What Big Eyes' was how it dealt with that most traditional of horror tropes, the werewolf, and yet of all the plays it was the least supernatural - and yet still hair-raising. A brilliant, and quite moving, dramatisation of "folie à deux". | ||
| Simon Bestwick (Simon_b) Username: Simon_b Registered: 10-2008 Posted From: 86.24.166.73 |
Stevie- agree absolutely about both 'During Barty's Party' and 'What Big Eyes.' Both superb. The climax of 'What Big Eyes' was actually terrifying. And Patrick Magee giving one of his most wonderfully unhinged performances. 'Baby' I actually found to be one of the weaker stories. Simon MacCorkindale- much as I loved him in 'Manimal'- just isn't really very good in it. There is some rather cringeworthy dialogue. But the climax is still scary. 'Buddyboy' is... odd. Not particularly scary, more sad. A strange, affecting drama all the same, with a great performance from Martin Shaw, especially in his scenes with Pamela Moiseiwitsch. Stuart McGugan (who I always remember as a Playschool presenter from my childhood) is pretty good too in that. 'The Dummy'- despite the daft look of the monster, still manages to be compelling. I love the scene where Clive Swift talks the actor into his role, thinking he's helping, when in fact he's pushing him over the edge in to madness. And 'Special Offer'... Jesus. Pauline Quirke showing just what a fantastic actress she is. She plays a character who goes from scary to pitiable to grotesque and back again. Self-deluding and terrifyingly powerful. And 'Murrain' is superb. I don't think I need to say anymore than that. I have to admit, there's only so much of Kneale's work I've seen. The Hammer Quatermass and the Pit, short stories like 'The Pond'... I still haven't seen 'The Stone Tape' or the other Quatermass TV shows. Maybe it's not so much about whether BEASTS is on a par with Kneale's best work; maybe it's more that even when he was off form, Nigel Kneale was a television writer whose work still stood head and shoulders above almost everyone else. | ||
| Stevie Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
Apart from some of his more obscure 60s stuff and 'The Woman In Black' I've seen most of Nigel Kneale's output and the only time I've ever been disappointed was with his one and only foray into Hollywood, the truly execrable 'Halloween III : Season Of The Witch' (1982) - still one of the most ludicrously abysmal horror movies ever made, imo, though more due to an unsympathetic treatment and incomprehensible attachment to the Michael Myers franchise than the quality of Kneale's script! | ||
| Stevie Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
'The Stone Tape' is arguably his finest work, after 'Quatermass And The Pit' (either version), imo. I remember the climactic scenes scaring the living hell out of me as a young child. | ||
| Stevie Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
See here for other thoughts on 'Beasts': http://www.knibbworld.com/campbelldiscuss/messages/1/328.html?1281613635 | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.151.147.87 |
The reason Halloween 3 was unconnected is that the series was planned as a series of unconnected stories set around halloween - similar to the House films which were unconnected haunted house fouse films. H3SOTW was a return to the planned format - which failed spectacularly. If it hadn't been linked to the halloween series, maybe it would be better thought of now as it does have some good moments and the the central idea is pretty creepy. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
'Halloween III : Season Of The Witch' is superb, man. I wild mash-up of Kneale's themes and US horror. I think 'Beasts' is brilliant, one of the best horror TV shows ever produced. 'Baby' remains the single scariest thing I ever watched on telly as a kid - it traumatised me. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
Weber H3 is actually very well thought of among many horror fans. Watch it again; it's very, very good in places. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
"And entirely typical of all horror fiction, cinema and TV at the time." But aren't we talking about work that is supposed to be exceptional? If it has to be justified by reference to the standards of the time, clearly it's merely average. | ||
| Stevie Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
No, it was commenting upon them and deconstructing them quite deliberately, imo. 'Baby' was set up as your typical haunted house drama, with the sensitive wife and the beastly husband, moving into their dream home and uncovering a horrible secret but turned those conventions into a psychologically devastating portrait of an unhappy marriage and the unspoken doubts of a pregnant woman driven to the brink of madness - and auditory and visual hallucinations - by her spouses's refusal to countenance the realisation of her dreams. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.29.255.62 |
No, Joel, Stevie was referring to just one aspect of that episode. Like the Irish builder in Fawlty Towers. Just part of a great show rendered vulgar by changing mores. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.154.169.2 |
As a kid I thought Beasts was sort of dull...as was Stone Tapes when i watched it the other year. It had a good idea but that's never ewally enough for me - it must also be well done, and certainly less bloody noisy. I LOVED the Stonehenge Quatermass, though. At the time. And wasn't John Mills not a catalogue? | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.154.169.2 |
We watched the kids series Shadows recently. It's very very patchy, but watching the one with Pauline Quirke in we realised just how fantastic she was - not acting but 'being', as my actor stepson said while watching it. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.29.255.62 |
God, you're one fussy mofo, Tony. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.154.169.2 |
I was only seventeen! | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.154.169.2 |
But I can agree with things if you like ;) | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
No-one's mentioned "The Year of the Sex Olympics" yet - another terrific Kneale story imo. Wouldn't it be wonderful if the missing story "The Road" turned up somewhere? Do any of the older folk here remember seeing that the one and only time it was on TV, before they wiped the tape? I never did, unfortunately. And what I'd do to get my hands on a copy of his collection "Tomato Cain" ... | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
I bought myself a used copy of Tomato Cain a couple of years ago, to celebrate my three-book deal with Solaris. I've only read two of the stories so far; I'm savouring it. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.154.169.2 |
I got a copy of that the other year! Cost me a pound. I won't share my opinion thus yet. Unless it's good. | ||
| Simon Bestwick (Simon_b) Username: Simon_b Registered: 10-2008 Posted From: 86.24.166.73 |
I got my copy of Tomato Cain a couple of years back. Still haven't read it all! A lot of the best weird tales in there, though, have been repeated elsewhere. Many of the other tales are slice of life stories, but none the worse for that. There are a lot of dark little comedies there in that book... | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.154.169.2 |
You sometimes feel you shouldn't diss renowned things, though. I think it stops us looking at new things and seeing their qualities. | ||
| Mick Curtis (Mick) Username: Mick Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.179.34.133 |
Apparently the UK and US versions of Tomato Cain differ slightly... | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
Has "Tomato Cain" been republished recently then? I thought it was really, really difficult to get hold of - and *very* expensive. I must take another look online and see if I can find a copy at an affordable price somewhere ... | ||
| Simon Bestwick (Simon_b) Username: Simon_b Registered: 10-2008 Posted From: 86.24.166.73 |
Cheapest copy on Amazon UK is £350 quid. Bloody hell. | ||
| Mick Curtis (Mick) Username: Mick Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.179.34.133 |
Cheapest on Abebooks is 70 quid or so... | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
I thought so! So, Tony, where did you get yours for a quid? And where do you live? I'm coming round to nick it!  | ||
| Mick Curtis (Mick) Username: Mick Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.179.34.133 |
He probably lives near Johnny Mains who always seems to be able to sniff out a bargain! (Actually they're almost opposite ends of the country - Tony obvioulsy has similar skills!). | ||
| John Forth (John) Username: John Registered: 05-2008 Posted From: 82.24.1.217 |
I find BEASTS a little patchy - good ideas and strong scripts (if a little overlong) dulled by occasionally pedestrian presentation - THE DUMMY springs immediately to mind. BABY, I thought was excellent. WHAT BIG EYES is a lot of fun, but then I'd watch Patrick Magee in just about anything. On a related note, I'd love to read Kneale's original Halloween 3 script - if only to see if it has my favourite line in it, one of the greatest 'handwaves' in film history: "Stonehenge! We had quite a job getting it here. You wouldn't believe how we did it!" | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.8.19.195 |
Dennis Etchison read the original script and thought it quite hard on the Irish (not an element that appears in Dennis's novel). | ||
| Stevie Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
Pedestrian presentation!!  'The Dummy' performed the impossible by turning a deliberately ridiculous man in a rubber suit monster costume into a thing of primal evil. How Kneale managed this conjuring trick, without the story descending into bathos, is, quite frankly, beyond me. And the twist ending, in which he has his cake and eats it, is bloody magnificent! Watch it again, John. | ||
| Stevie Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
There is, however, a part of me that believes 'Buddyboy', as the most understatedly Aickmanesque of the stories, may prove to be the best of the lot... and I ranked it "last" on a first viewing!!  | ||
| John Forth (John) Username: John Registered: 05-2008 Posted From: 82.24.1.217 |
Sorry, Stevie, but I think you're being a bit more forgiving of the series' faults than I'm capable of. | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
Well, he's making me want to watch it again anyway ...  | ||
| Stevie Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
Any "faults" the series appears to have when viewed now are, I believe, purely cosmetic and not actually faults at all. In that respect I agree entirely with what Zed said at the top of the other 'Beasts' thread. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
What did I say? I can't be arsed to look. I also may have been speaking crap, just to wind someone up.  | ||
| Stevie Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
"Last night I watched an episode of Nigel Kneale’s BEASTS from 1974 and realised that people like Kneale were already saying what a lot of horror writers are trying to say now decades ago, but with more style and less bombast. Some of these old 70s genre plays are simply miraculous – The Stone Tape, The Exorcism, Beasts, Hammer House of Horror, Thriller. Pure. Unadorned. No flash and lots of substance. Despite the dated look and the low-rent shot-on-video feel, they’re great – actually, they’re great because of all that. No ominous soundtrack telling you when to be scared; no expensive special effects or big set-pieces. Just imagination and great storytelling. Last night, watching “Baby”, I was genuinely unnerved by the sight of an actor in a cheap black rubber mask, making strange wailing noises whilst sitting in an armchair suckling a furry pig. Genius." One of the few times you've actually spoken some sense on here! | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
Oh, I speak sense all the time. You're just too stupid to realise. | ||
| Stevie Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
All the time... What's going to win the 3.45 at Chepstow on Saturday? Oh, ye font of eternal wisdom. | ||
| John Forth (John) Username: John Registered: 05-2008 Posted From: 82.24.1.217 |
Any "faults" the series appears to have when viewed now are, I believe, purely cosmetic and not actually faults at all. Sorry, Stevie, but I disagree with this, and even more so with what you said over on the film classification thread referencing these faults as the "ultimate criticism of the modern (spoilt) viewer's inability to suspend disbelief and allow the story to work its timeless magic." I find the final reveal in BABY fairly effective despite the fact that the 'witch' pretty much resembles an animated sock puppet. Similarly, I'll watch AFTER BARTY'S PARTY and be entirely sold on the rat attacks despite the fact that we never see a single rat. But to dismiss criticism of some of the series' shonkier aspects - the occasionally hapless performances, the intermittently flabby scripts - with the kind of reasoning you've used above is really the worst kind of internet argument - dismissive, and mildly insulting. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.29.255.62 |
Hey, that's a bit strong, mate. He was only saying, like. I don't get this flabby script thing. I regard each episode of Beasts as a short stageplay. The length allows Kneale to build character. Cut that and I fear we'd lose a lot of the power. Eg, What Big Eyes needs the lengthy proceedings to make that final scene powerful. It feels epic, somehow. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
John, Stevie has no critical faculties - something's either a masterpiece or a piece of shit to him. There are some right dodgy bits in Beasts, but somehow the ideas and the integrity manage to coast over them. I think the tattiness of the reveak in "BabY" works for rather than against it - it lends the scene a nightmarish quality. | ||
| Stu (Stu) Username: Stu Registered: 04-2008 Posted From: 82.14.51.1 |
I got my copy of Tomato Cain for a quid as well. Found it in a bargain bin at the London ABC Show. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.154.169.2 |
Mine was in a charity shop, oxfam books, last year or so. They're usually quite astute but this mustn't have been on their radar. I once found the first Harry Potter book as a proof copy for 75p in Scope. It's worth about three grand. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.158.62.42 |
Did you buy it and sell it on? I certainly would have done | ||
| John Forth (John) Username: John Registered: 05-2008 Posted From: 217.20.16.186 |
Apologies to Stevie. That last comment perhaps came over more strongly than intended. Gary - appreciate that it's a case of YMMV on the BEASTS scripts, but for me the majority of them felt like they were just a little longer - often no more than ten or fifteen minutes - than the concept needed. Presumably Kneale had to write to a slot of an hour, so I don't really blame him for this, but it did mar my enjoyment of some of the episodes. Indeed, the only one that I think 'failed' was BUDDYBOY, which despite admirable committment from the cast, really shouldn't have made it out of Kneale's ideas notebook. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
"the tattiness of the reveak" Zed, that's one of your stories creeping into your TV criticism. Listen to your unconscious. It's just given you your next novel on a plate. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.29.255.62 |
Hi John. Yeah, I know what you mean. My partner found the supermarket episode long-winded. But I kind of like that bagginess. King is the same. The terrors are embedded in a living world, carefully detailed. But I hear what you're saying. |