| Author | Message | ||
     Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.145.228.10 |
Some may think Rhys' new venture is not for them. But I think it may be good fun in the full synergous tradition of satire, lampooning, etc. I certainly hope so. http://rhysaurus.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/grin-is-grinning-at-you.html And it's for charity. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.151.109.99 |
The first review on Smashwords site for this (a review by Jason Rolfe): a balanced review, to my mind. If anyone can be 'balanced' and still read this book!  | ||
| Jonathan (Jonathan) Username: Jonathan Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 80.4.146.163 |
Sorry, but to me this just looks like him being an arse and trying to make some sort of point. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.151.109.99 |
I am not going to defend it on Rhys' behalf as it will speak for itself no doubt when it is read. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.8.28.63 |
"...a writer worth his salt and also his pepper and also his mustard is never satisfied to stand still with the topics and themes that have made him famous..." That seems fair enough. Me, I try not to repeat myself too much. The book looks fun, but the trouble is I have no interest in Animal Aid. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.152.62.175 |
I turned down being in this because of even the slimmest chance it might hurt Ramsey's feelings. I like Rhys but I still wasn't sure about where it was 'coming from'. Poor animals, Ramsey! Shame! | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.151.109.99 |
Generally speaking, any great artist over the centuries has been lampooned . In fact, I feel it is a inter- or post-requisite. Not a prerequisite since I can't think of an artist being lampooned *before* he or she was sufficiently famous or well-respected! In fact the whole process is usually synergistic. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.8.28.63 |
Sorry, is it an anthology rather than a single-author collection? | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.152.62.175 |
Yes, an antho. I think he asked folk he knew. I was actually just chuffed to be asked, but then felt, well, glum that my first invite should be this one. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.151.109.99 |
I think it looks more of a lampology, eerily illuming fiction's sometimes grotesque and humorous darknesses... but as the book's biggest blogger-in-chief, Rhys is the one to be asked the exact nature of its ontology. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.151.109.99 |
Just checking with Wikipedia, and relieved to see that 'ontology' means what I thought it meant: " ontology deals with questions concerning what entities exist or can be said to exist, and how such entities can be grouped, related within a hierarchy, and subdivided according to similarities and differences.[citation" | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.8.17.53 |
So what were you actually asked to do, Tony? | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
Smashwords is about the right level for this, if you ask me... | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.151.109.99 |
Indeed it is a fun thing, as you will see if and when you read it, I hope. If I'd been doing a similar imaginary 'author' collection, I'd've sought for fragments and pieces etc of 'his' work to bolster what I alone could find. | ||
| Jonathan (Jonathan) Username: Jonathan Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 80.4.146.163 |
But it's not an imaginary author collection, surely? It's a fairly crude attempt to lampoon and mock for reasons known only to Rhys. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.151.109.99 |
When I read it, I took it to be what I just said. However, if anyone thinks it has hit the wrong note, that's another, possibly more precise, discussion to be had. In the meantime I hold by what I said above about lampoons over the centuries in art and literature. And the often beneficial effect to the subject of such a lampoon. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
Not that it matters, anyway; nobody will read it.  | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.151.109.99 |
Well there have been at least two reviews so far. And I've just admitted to reading it. That,s more than most Smashwords books, I guess. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.151.109.99 |
Also for lampoon, please read pastiche. Spitting image ethos, too. Imaginary target and real target in creative synergy. But the jury's out on whether this book has hit the right note. I believe it has, but I can appreciate others who disagree after reading it. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.26.134.231 |
And the punchline is . . . Rhys has never even read Ramsey Campbell. Lord knows I've tried hard enough to persuade him to do so. The big daft bugger. The sad thing is that a lot of what he holds dear in literature characterises Ramsey's work: comedy, parody, wordplay, invention, ideas, brilliant prose, genuine weirdness, etc. | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.196 |
I must admit, I assumed it was Rhys being a little .. er, shall we say, naughty in his lampooning. But it is for a cause which is dear to my heart, and I see you can buy a PDF version, so I'm off to buy my very first ebook right now ... | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
He's never read Ramsey's work?! Wtf?!?! I kinda think anyone here would be incensed if someone was lampooning them—or doing something that could even be perceived as such—and then found out they never even bothered to read your work!  | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
Btw, I'm doing a faux anthology of fiction myself. It's called Inane Ramblings In A Fanboy Echo Chamber, and includes work by Camsey Rambler and Fried Scary and Hairy Mack-Zombie and others. It's based on the RCMB—on which, btw, all of the posts by those other than myself, I can't be bothered to read (do please stop posting everyone, unless you're only responding to me, of course). I'm donating all the proceeds to charity: The Fund To Prevent Needless Cruelty To Sad And Sighing Children. Please buy it. Surely you don't want to see children suffering, do you?... | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
<---- No worries. I'm just lampooning Rhys' lampoon. I only can, having read none of Rhys' work myself. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.151.109.99 |
"Rhys Hughes is a master of parodying some of the greatest names in literary horror. His pastiches are serious, but they carry an equally sardonic tone, alongside inimitably Hughesian ideas that sweep familiar terrors into stranger territory." From the respected 'Grim Reviews' here: http://grimreviews.blogspot.co.uk/2011_09_01_archive.html Still, I am no Rhys Hughes apologist. If he ha s actually never read Ramsey's work, I'd be surprised. But I've been surprised before. | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.196 |
>>having read none of Rhys' work myself.<< In which case you ARE missing out on some good stuff, Craig. He does write some very weird, wonderful and humorous stories. "Link Arms With Toads" from Chomu Press would be a good place to start if you want to try him! | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
I'm sure he's a fine writer, Caroline, judging by the non-fiction I've read by him. He's well-read and insightful and creative and engaging. I just find it unseemly, to "lampoon" something you're not at least immediately familiar with. For one, can it even be accurate? And then, is it fair to promulgate the notion you are familiar with the work, by the very nature of the fact you're lampooning it? It smacks of false-advertising... it smacks, vaguely, of hypocrisy. I wonder how many people know this, or would buy the book if they did?... | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
He had to have read Ramsey; it's just not possible he didn't. It has to be he's suppressing some kind of envy or anxiety, and so feels compelled to say he's never read him. It's impossible Rhys'd come to this board and write this lampoon and whatnot... no, I simply refuse to believe he's not at least passingly familiar—and I mean first-hand—with Ramsey's work. | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.196 |
Good point, Craig - I was unaware, until Gary mentioned it - that he hadn't read any of Ramsey's work. That does make it seem even more like he's just having a go at Ramsey rather than his writing, which isn't good at all. Still, for the price of a few bars of chocolate I'd rather give to a good cause, and I'll have a read of the PDF I've just downloaded at some point when I have time. | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.196 |
I was responding to your previous post, Craig. I must say, I find it hard to believe he'd be able to convincingly lampoon something without ever having read it. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
I guess you'll have to sample it, Caroline, and tell us how it works as a send-up?... It'd be interesting to know. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.151.109.99 |
I agree with Gary that the wok of Ramsey and Rhys are comparable; and both writers have been in my favourite writers list for many years. But Gary's info is indeed something I don't think I knew, despite, in the early to mid 90s, corresponding with Rhys quite regularly. I'll have to search out those old letters if I can find them... | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.26.134.231 |
When I say he hasn't read Ramsey's work, I mean he hasn't read a lot of it. I'm sure he's picked up the odd short story here and there. Would be hard not to have done. Rhys does claim not to have read any immediate contemporary in the last ten years. But sometimes it's just Rhys being Rhys. My impression is that Rhys has got the idea that Ramsey's work is just grim horror and all that goes with it. That's what he's parodying here. I don't think Rhys appreciates the broader aspects of Ramsey's work - those I've alluded to above. To do that, you need to read all his work, especially the later novels and tales. I've told him all this. He says he's got 600 novels to read, but has agreed to read The Grin of the Dark as the 601st. Again, Rhys being Rhys. He's the genre's Marmite. Me, I like him. (And that shouldn't compromise any affiliations I have here.) | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
Well, I read the sample provided myself. I see a parody of horror... but hardly of Ramsey—what's there is not his style or subject-matter. I'm going by the sample, mind, which isn't much. Perhaps Ramsey is just standing in as a symbol OF horror? Like using Stephen King as a monument of horror, but not King himself perse? It would have been entertaining to see a subtle & true homage to Campbell—something that passes exquisitely for horror, and would only be a parody to those in the know. The film The Expendables is a fine recent example in film (sequel about to come out), where the entire affair is one long loving parody of 80's action films—told straight-faced, without even cracking a grin, all the way through. | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.196 |
>>It would have been entertaining to see a subtle & true homage to Campbell—something that passes exquisitely for horror, and would only be a parody to those in the know.<< The best example of that I've seen (and I suspect Ramsey might agree with me) is Pete Crowther's short story "We're All Bozos on This Bus". I guess Rhys is parodying what he sees as horror. I do recall him saying when he left the board that he didn't really like horror anyway. Perhaps, like a lot of people, he thinks that horror is just the "grim horror" that Gary refers to above. I hope he can bring "The Grin of the Dark" much nearer the top of his reading pile. I reckon he'd enjoy it! | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.151.109.99 |
And here at the beginning of 2010 I am encouraging Rhys publicly to do that very thing: http://www.ligotti.net/showpost.php?p=37763&postcount=55 I think this blog by Rhys explains a lot about the hybrid nature of lampoon and general horror parody and that he wasn't due to write everything in the book: http://rhysaurus.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/by-ironic-light-of-full-lampoon.html | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.151.109.99 |
And following on from that, I don't think Rhys should fear for the humour of this whole situation, as Ramsey seems to have offered publicly to review the book - in the comments here: http://rhysaurus.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/grin-is-grinning-at-you.html | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
Well, of course! All publicity is good publicity.... | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.9.255.103 |
Here's a review. http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/15699323-the-grin-of-the-doll-who-ate-his-mot her-s-face-in-the-dark-and-other-dre | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.8.28.229 |
So what were you actually asked to do, Tony? Or Des? | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.152.62.175 |
Hi Ramsey - I was asked if I wanted to write a spoof of your work. He said if i felt bad doing it I didn't have to, and that it was OK. I did wonder whether to write an 'affectionate' spoof but hesitated too long. I have to say, I read one of the spoofs but didn't think it sounded like you at all. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.152.62.175 |
But Rhys does have a prickly temper and I do think he probably did it out of grumpiness. He can be a lovely person but I think he has a series of 'lines' about him that if you cross means you're kind of his enemy. He's a baffling bloke - I do wish he could relax sometimes. He can be very generous. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.8.28.229 |
Thanks, Tony! I assume (on the basis of the online sample) that others were asked to parody other writers or even just to parody the genre as they saw it. I only wish he'd asked me! I do think some of the "quotes from writers" at the beginning are mean-spirited. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.151.109.99 |
The nature of the request is embedded in that public link above - and I was intrigued by the 'nemonymous' spirit and tradition it was showing (with possible late labelling). It would be a shame to break that spirit at this stage, perhaps, if I were able to break it. But I can assure anyone that 'harmless fun' was what would have been mentioned, not necessarily spoofs of Ramsey's work. When the 'nemonymous' dam is broken, perhaps Rhys will reveal more. As I said earlier, the book should speak for itself. And if it struck the wrong note for some people, they shoul say so. And God forbid, I've had my share of public rows with Rhys over the years! I only hope the energy from such controversial friction of interfaces are turned to positive outcomes, although often Rhys sails too close to the edge. Or as he would say, where he should be sailing. In literature, if not life itself, the work of people is all important, not the people writing it. And I love the work of both Ramsey and Rhys as I think have stated many times in public since the early nineties. And since the early seventies, with Ramsey's. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.151.109.99 |
Our posts crossed, Ramsey, and I agree with what you say. A pity he didn't ask you to participate. And I wsih now I had suggested that. Or if you had read that blog where he asks for participation, you might have nemomymously submitted... | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.29.182.194 |
Here's what I genuinely think. And Rhys is still a member here, so he can disagree if he likes. Anyway, here goes. A lot of authors in our field (particularly its UK branch) can be legitimately described as Ramsey acolytes - Tim Lebbon, Joel Lane, Mark Morris, Nicholas Royle, Adam Nevill, Conrad Williams, Gary McMahon, and others (even little old me). We all regard Ramsey as a real master, the writer of the previous generation who reigns supreme. But I think there are a bunch of folk, perhaps crucially who have had less mass market success, who do not regard Ramsey as worthy of such status. They consider the likes of JG Ballard and other overtly intellectual writers (e.g the magic realists) superior 'gurus', and yet suspect that these authors are poorly understood by practitioners of a non-intellectual, witless genre (horror) in which everything is unremitting gloom and pseudo-seriousness. Ramsey Campbell has come to be known as the father of such an approach. I suspect these other writers wonder why it's Ramsey who has inspired a generation of writers who've had some success, and not Gabriel Garcia Marquez or Jorge Luis Borges. In my view, the mistake these authors make is ascribing to Ramsey Campbell this stereotypical view of horror, and this arises from not reading his work. I'd say that the parody book mentioned above is a iron fist in a velvet glove, an attempt on the part of an intellectual to sting a sluggish behemoth - the dense horror field with its witless authors and readers - into life. The trouble is that it's punching at a straw man. Forgive all the mixed metaphors in that last paragraph. I'm just a thick horror writer. This is just an interpretation, open to revision. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.151.109.99 |
I think along the lines of 'The Intentional Fallacy' - always have done - and I won't go into that now. It is something that can be googled if anyone is interested and it was the ethos behind 'nemonymous' and the paramountcy of the work not the author's unknowable intentions. If Rhys is that iron fist in a velvet glove intentinalese as Gary describes, I don't go along with it, although there are grains of truth everywhere. Ramsey should be read. Rhys should be read. But I repeat what I said above: "I only hope the energy from such controversial friction of interfaces are turned to positive outcomes, although often Rhys sails too close to the edge." Or appears to do so. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.152.62.175 |
Gary - I agree with that. I just think it's not a coincidence that such a book should come along not long after Rhys leaving this board. I wonder if it would have come along if he'd still been here? I never think of Ramsey as a miserablist writer. There's too much going on in his stories for that. He's too playful and still sees wonder in things. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.152.62.175 |
Maybe the intentions of the book would have seemed less 'petty' if he had approached you. The fact he's done it so quietly and without you knowing makes it look...fishy. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.151.109.99 |
There were many public blogs that Rhys issued so it was at least possible for Ramsey to know, I feel. But that may be disingenuous on my part. I think there are many complex things here going on, not least of which, I sense, is a literay conundrum that 'fascinates' Rhys' fiction. 'The Intentional Fallacy' of course propounds that even one's own intentions are cloudy: and I read a book recently about self-deception by Robert Trivers. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.152.62.175 |
Everything we do is designed to protect ourselves. My wife's pain management person told me this. Even clumsiness is the mind trying to stop us focusing on deeper problems. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.152.62.175 |
It acts almost without our knowledge, till you start thinking about it. Then it tries something else. We're not really in control of ourselves at all. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.8.25.117 |
I give you my word that I knew nothing at all about the book until it was announced here - in fact, to be absolutely honest, until your posting on 12 July, Des. I hadn't previously opened the link in the first posting. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.151.109.99 |
I hope it is seen to be good to bring it out into the open here, then, last June and yesterday. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.8.25.117 |
Des, are those public blogs still online - the postings you mention, I mean? | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.152.62.175 |
Ha, yes - like ripping off a bonded-on plaster! And as necessary.  (which it actually isn't; they just fall off in the end anyway. But that's besides the point.) | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.152.62.175 |
In the end I suppose no new enemies are made by this that weren't already there, and anyone who does or doesn't like this stuff won't have their opinions changed. It just feels a bit painful. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.151.109.99 |
In answer to Ramsey: http://weirdmonger.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/big-brother-summer-2012-3.html http://rhysaurus.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/lamblake-heinz-revealed.html http://rhysaurus.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/lamblake-and-metamaturity.html http://rhysaurus.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/lampooning-lampoons.html http://rhysaurus.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/lamblake-is-coming.html http://rhysaurus.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/grin-is-grinning-at-you.html And the is a special Facebook page! I wish someone would do what I perceive to be, perhaps wrongly, such an obliquely connective, synergistic lampoon on my work! | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.151.109.99 |
Sorry I genuinly mistkenly stuck in one of my own links by accident there that I had just been using esewhere! It should have been: http://rhysaurus.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/by-ironic-light-of-full-lampoon.html | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.152.62.175 |
It'd be nice to have enough stuff to be considered lampoonable! I think what Rhys was trying to do (after he decided to do it!) was to make a point about 'if you can be lampooned, you need to change'. To his credit he says he isn't a perfect writer either. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.152.62.175 |
I should have called my Holes story 'Now 2012' - for the amount of times I said 'Now' in it. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.152.62.175 |
'Everything we do is designed to protect ourselves' - point being, if someone is angry it'll come out whether they want it to or not. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.151.109.99 |
I blame the editor for that, if so, Tony! | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.151.109.99 |
My last post referred to 'The Holes. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.8.20.244 |
Thanks for all those links, Des! Not only wasn't I aware of any of that, none of the controversy about it reached me. I wish it had, because I would have said I didn't mind. "If you can be lampooned, you need to change" - why? We can certainly lampoon (for just a few instances) Kafka, Borges, Joyce, Nabokov, Graham Greene, Dennis Lehane, Lovecraft (indeed, I did)... Why should they change or have changed? The "horror paradox" I just find silly, based on a false claim. If art horrifies the audience it's morally wrong? Why? | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 212.219.233.223 |
Oh heck, Gary Fry pointed this thread out to me and suggested I join in. There are just too many points to answer properly... If I've got time later or tomorrow I'll make an effort to answer them... Or even better you could just click on my blog in its entirety(rather than just on a single post) and scroll down a bit and watch the idea develop over time. That might be, er... more helpful than just making assumptions about how the project evolved. Here you go: http://rhysaurus.blogspot.co.uk/ The best thing I can do in the meantime is say that spoofs, parodies, lampoons are what I do; I lampoon myself more than anyone (a fact that just doesn't seem to get noticed). I specifically asked for anti Rhys Hughes lampoons to include in the book (I hate referring to myself in the third person but there's no help for it now) and badgered people into lampooning me. Lampoon me, I cried! But no one heeded! I once had to write an encyclopedia entry on myself anonymously and I lampooned myself mercilessly in that; and then years later I heard those damning judgments against myself that had been written by myself being quoted against myself to prove I wasn't as good as I thought I was (however good that is). I can't help it. I'm addicted to self-parody. And that's the crucial thing about me, the only thing you really need to know to understand anything I do. I'm a pathological self-parodist. I also lampoon my friends and publishers, people who are pro me. Here's an example from yesterday, a lampoon of the inestimable Gary Fry. Gary Fry has published me and I've never fallen out with him about anything ever. But I still lampoon him! Why, why, o why? It's because lampoons should somehow be... er beyond politics. Aristophanes was friends with Socrates and yet he wrote The Clouds, using Socrates as a symbol, yes? And The Clouds ended up helping to destroy Socrates and I don't think that's what Aristophanes actually wanted, but the lampoon was taken out of his hands and made political, even though he was resolutely unpolitical in that sense. And it doesn't seem from reading The Symposium that Plato bore any malice to Aristophanes. Anyway...  Slight factual correction to something Tony said above. I didn't ask him to spoof Ramsey Campbell's writing. This is the actual text of the message I sent him. I'm sure he'll check and validate... I don't know how this idea appeals to you, but I'm going to release an ebook sometime later this year called *The Grin of the Doll Who Ate his Mother's Face in the Dark and Other Dreadful Tales* by Lamblake Heinz. I want the book to be full of deliberately bad horror stories, really appalling spoofs of 70s, 80s and 90s horror. And not just coherent tales, but fragments and 'excerpts' from novels. I dare say I'll be able to write a couple of the tales myself (the title story certainly), but if I have to do the entire book all on my own it will take too long; so I've decided to ask others to contribute, if they feel they would like to. Of the people I asked, about half declined for various reasons and half accepted for various reasons... None of those who accepted declared or hinted at any malice or even dislike of Ramsey Campbell... | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.152.62.175 |
Right - that's how I read that, you see. Yes, I'm not bothered if a writer never changes or develops much. I go back to food; if it tastes as nice as it could possibly be why muck about with it? | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.196 |
Rhys! Lovely to "see" you around here again. I hope you'll stay this time. It looks to me, from an outsider's perspective, like there's been no harm done here at all (and certainly no intention to do harm). Ramsey has said above that he doesn't mind: "Not only wasn't I aware of any of that, none of the controversy about it reached me. I wish it had, because I would have said I didn't mind." And you, Rhys, have made it clear that it was spoofs of horror *generally* that you were looking for (and probably got, I haven't read it yet): "I want the book to be full of deliberately bad horror stories, really appalling spoofs of 70s, 80s and 90s horror." As I see it now, that should be "case closed" - no harm done or intended. Hope you get a lot of sales as it's a great cause! | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 81.101.253.71 |
Thanks Caroline, but I don't think it can be "case closed" yet. I mean, a certain amount of tension is necessary in life, in art... isn't it? Writers living happily ever after together is the problem, one of the problems, that I'm trying, hoping, to tackle in some small way with this project and indeed with everything I do. Everyone getting along nicely is the death of artistic progress. Following that philosophy we end up not with a literary scene but a cartel... Tension is essential. I have lots to say and I'll have to say it point by point, but I don't have time now, so it'll have to be tomorrow... But it's the reaction of the lackeys that interests me too. I've always watched with fascination the tactical games that people play in the writing world... and it's the tactical games, the chess moves, the politics, the horse trading, the insincerity of the business at the grassroots level, that is partly the intended target of this spoof. So we have the utterly awesome comment from Jonathan above that "...to me this just looks like him being an arse and trying to make some sort of point." Er... trying to make some sort of point. Like everyone. In life. Yes. A high quality criticism, extremely well thought-out and expressed with panache and concision. But in terms of "lackey reaction" so far, the best thing about this thread for me is that the King has been magnanimous but his courtiers jumped the gun and strutted their annoyance in front of him *on his behalf* as a tactical measure to improve their own standing... as people do... and he pulled the regal rug away from under their feet... | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.196 |
"Thanks Caroline, but I don't think it can be "case closed" yet. I mean, a certain amount of tension is necessary in life, in art... isn't it?" Well, you know me, Rhys - I like to diffuse arguments if I possibly can. I'm a coward. I don't like fights! I must say, you really are a naughty little imp, aren't you? I've missed your playful provokations on this board. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
When one uses the term "lackey," there's no mincing: the intension is blatant insult. Are you aware of that? | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.66.23.11 |
Of course he's aware of it. Still, at least the arsehole is insulting us all to our faces this time round - not having a go at us on other forums and getting all pissy at people who point out what he's up to - calling THEM untrustworthy - when he's the prick who was insulting people behind their backs. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.152.62.175 |
Craig - yes, this is a masked ball. As someone who was brought up in a house where arguments happened daily from as far back as I can remember and hated every minute of it I'm not a huge fan of tension, and rush to 'everyone getting along' with open arms. At college there was practically nothing but getting along and I loved every minute of it - it was a huge relief after home. I don't think tension leads to creativity - any creative leaps I've made have been in my own mind, come naturally. They happen because I've been impressed or inspired, not made angry or hurt. Anger and hurt closes me up like a sea anemone, means TV and snacks. Caroline - this is no fun at all. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
Yes, Tony and Weber, but I'm actually quite serious in my query. I'm not just posing a throwaway question on this board, I'm sincerely asking this, and would like a concrete answer. If the answer's "Yes," well, then... thanks for the insult, I guess. If the answer's "No," then I can only question Rhys's entire ability as a writer who even knows what he's doing. If there's no answer at all—I think that's an answer in and of itself, about personal integrity, which roundabout returns me to my second point. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 147.252.230.148 |
Tension between ideas or within the same person can be good, but between people, not so good. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.152.62.175 |
Craig - OK, I see what you mean. It did come across as insulting to all and sundry. To quote somebody, 'say it ain't so...' Yes, Proto - that's right. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.66.23.11 |
Craig - I'm entirely serious in my reply. The guy is a petty little jerk who I really shouldn't have dignified with an insult. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
It is, Tony. And Weber, I wasn't originally prepared to go so far, but I'm kind of thinking that now.... Everyone's sweepingly insulted: The King has his lackeys, who slave and pander, and then get the rug swept from under them when our despotic King pulls the rug simply to upend them. Suddenly all those opening "quotes" from the sample I read?... I think Ramsey's more than right: I thought at first they were intended to be light-hearted but perhaps only came off as offensive (item: writer's ability); but I now feel they indeed are at least somewhat intentionally mean-spirited. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.152.62.175 |
I didn't think over on facebook that there was much kindness intended. It's why I backed off. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
More to his salient points above: Hollywood is about the most insincere industry there is on planet Earth. Nepotism does rule, and luck plays a larger factor than people know. Who you know helps you advance greatly; and a past hurdle crossed equals (for the hurdle-crosser) many subsequent failures that even more talented aspirants may never get to experience—in fact, would be X-ed off the list for making. And you know what? Fucking waaaaah. That's the way it is, and not just here, but everywhere in life. Hollywood can be cruel, heartless, and dispiriting. But it's never personal. And the first hallmark of the professional, is not to go around taking things personally, then actually flinging bombs at others through envy or self-pity. And Hollywood, for all its perceived flaws, does occasionally do great product. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.152.62.175 |
You know what? I think you can only schmooze if you have anything to schmooze with. If you stink or suck you just can't do it. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.152.62.175 |
We only network successfully if we are ok people to start with. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 147.252.230.148 |
All I see so far is someone seeking attention and several people willing to give it. And yet, nobody seems really happy with the transaction. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.152.62.175 |
It opens opportunities, it doesn't CREATE them. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.152.62.175 |
It just touches a nerve, Proto. But you're right. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 147.252.230.148 |
Steve Martin had a good quote: be so good they can't ignore you. (The word "irritating" is not an acceptable substitute for the word "good", in my opinion.) | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.152.62.175 |
'Like' | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.66.23.11 |
For the first time Proto - I agree with you completely. I'm still annoyed with myself for responding to him. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 147.252.230.148 |
What's wrong with people rallying around someone they care about when they perceive them to be attacked? If that person isn't actually bothered in the end, it's still a nice show of solidarity. If it's motivated by career advancement, then there may be a point to make, but unless we know that that's the motivation, it's mean-spirited to interpret what could be just friendly protectiveness as something else. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.152.62.175 |
Right. Ignorey time it is. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 147.252.230.148 |
Shutting up shop now. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.152.62.175 |
With me, it was because I didn't want to hurt Ramsey's feelings. I was sure the motive was a bad one for this book. I don't know what there is to gain from my approach, other than a sense of doing the right thing by someone who has only given me pleasure down the years. You know, outside the odd tiff. I'm great at ignoring people, me. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
You're right, Tony. But I would say, if you have something that stinks or sucks (and even that, is a relative measure)—the individual isn't the factor. Stink/suck isn't (or doesn't have to be) a creator's permanent state. But yes, Proto's right too. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.152.62.175 |
I heard a shutter sound there when you said that, Proto. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
Woah, that last one referred to your post far up above it, Tony. Proto just said it best in that one above: friendly protectiveness suddenly became a target of attack. And then, there's the "divide and conquer" mentality at play: the lackeys and courtiers were flung hither and thither by our in-reality cruel King's pulling on the rug. But the much beloved bastard (literally [a pun in a pun!], because his whole book is a by-product of the King) jester, standing aside, surely is the King's favorite after all.... | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.196 |
@Tony: "Caroline - this is no fun at all." I know. But I tend to always try to diffuse tension (between people) with humour. Clearly, it hasn't worked in this case though. Tension between us all here on the board does seem to be what Rhys is trying to achieve. I wonder why? It would be nice to have a straight answer, Rhys, if you're still there watching us. Proto sums it up perfectly: "Tension between ideas or within the same person can be good, but between people, not so good." One leads to creativity, the other stifles it. I wonder if Rhys knows the difference? Thinking of Rhys calling us all Ramsey's lackeys, I guess that could be the way some folk see people who network via social media - whether it's in the business of writing, or any other business for that matter. Social networking is used for business - promoting your goods and services, selling them to people. There's no getting away from that (this is my professional business management background kicking in). But is that a problem? Should it be that way? I don't know the answer to that, but it happens, for sure. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.151.109.99 |
The Fifty Shades of Rhys. He and Ramsey will be the only ones remembered in the longer term from among those of us discussing them here. But that doesn't excuse that comforting carpet being tugged by Rhys from beneath all our various feet. | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.196 |
Ooops, sorry, I was writing/posting while you were all agreeing to shut up. OK, I'll shut up now too! | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
Though to be fair, it wasn't friendly protectiveness at all on my part—I just couldn't believe anyone would "lampoon" anyone without reading any of their friggin' work! By the way, maybe you Brits can clear this up: "Lampoon." There's "satire," there's "parody," there's "having fun with" or "sending up" and so on... but over here, "lampoon" mostly means to rend something inside out, derisive amusement. You might "poke fun" at your wife or friends, but you'd never "lampoon" them. Or is this a term that's different over there? | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.152.62.175 |
I have the horrible feeling Rhys wants to cling onto his own interpretations of what is good or bad. I think he is quite content to be the only man in the world in step. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.152.62.175 |
Yes. Silence. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
I miss Stevie.... | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.152.62.175 |
(He'll be back. He seems like a soft puppy after all this...) | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
And one last thing: Paint me all over a heavy shade of Lackey, because now I find Ramsey's amazingly magnanimous good-humor at this, just a model of decency. My respect went up to 11. (Ha! That was a riff on Spinal Tapp, then I just realized what book I was reading....) | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.29.182.194 |
Goodness, what a lot of fuss. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.151.109.99 |
Funny you say that, Gary, but, fleetingly at least, I thought I would see Breaking News on the tv about Rhys' post of 'Friday, July 13, 2012 - 04:13 pm:' | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.196 |
"I miss Stevie.... " So do I. I hope he's OK and will be back with us soon. What was that you said, Tony, on another thread - about him playing with kittens again? Has he got cats? | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.5.43.148 |
Hurrah! I love these stupid threads. This one has it all: the return of someone who said they were never coming back, swearing, pointlessness, accusations of cronyism and conspiracy, subtext, paranoia, naiveté, childish name-calling, character assumptions from people who've never met...a nice little strop and a melodramatic walk-out at the end, and it'll be the quintessential internet forum row.  | ||
| Mick Curtis (Mick) Username: Mick Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 94.197.129.230 |
We just need accusations of Naziism and we're done! | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.5.43.148 |
Haha! Yeah, that's the final ingredient. Come on, someone add that to the pot! Oh, oh, and bullying...there's got to be accusations of bullying somewhere, and a lot of people who know nothing about the context of the argument rushing to someone's defence. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
Yup. It's Mick and Zed, typical Gestapo bootmen....  | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.5.43.148 |
Sieg Heil, muthafucka.  | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.196 |
Zed, stop being such a bully! | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.196 |
(that was a joke, by the way - lest anyone should take me seriously) | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.5.43.148 |
Fear not; I don't take anyone seriously on the internet. Just in real life. | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 111.243.148.188 |
This isn't aimed at you in the slightest, Gary, but your comment brought up something that's been on my mind for a while. I see the internet as an extension of 'real life'. Obviously it's not the same thing as being with other people physically and having a face-to-face conversation, but it is still an exchange between real people - it's just far less direct. I think it can provide an easy cop-out for people who don't want to take responsibility for their words to pretend it's of no consequence, just because 'it's only the internet'. There's a lot of nonsense on the net, but also some things that are worthwhile - this message board, for example. I don't think what anyone here says or does is meaningless, just because we're not all physically in the same place. I wouldn't waste my time if I felt that way. Just a thought, for what it's worth... | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.29.182.194 |
"Anyone who says the Internet is rubbish and does so on the Internet is like a prude at a brothel objecting to licentiousness while getting sucked off." -- Oscar Wild | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.29.182.194 |
Anyway, Rhys will be along today to calm things down . . . | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 212.219.233.223 |
Er yes... I seem to have offended Jonathan and Craig and Weber... Oh dear... Or maybe, just maybe, they have offended themselves instead? I don't have too much time to spend here, unfortunately, but I guess I ought to answer the two main charges that have been raised against me so far. These charges are: (a) I am an arse. I am arse because (i) I seem to be "trying to make some sort of point" and (ii) I am "seeking attention". Um. Yes to both. It's called being alive and being a writer. (b) I have a mean spirit. I have a mean spirit because of the pseudo-quotes at the beginning of this spoof book. Er... Yes again. Guilty. The quotes are mean-spirited. But that's not really the point. You should be asking: are the quotes funny? Are the quotes true? Well, the first question is subjective, I can't answer for you. I find them funny but you might not. I can't really do much about that. But when it comes to truth, yes I believe that they encapsulate truth to a certain degree, an unpalatable kind of truth doubtless. But again, that's what being a writer is supposed to be about, unpalatable truths are the exact kind that writers should be dealing with... I'll give just one example, though I could probably find examples for all the quotes. I invented a character called Sam Markuels and this is what I make him say in regard to the work of Lamblake Heinz: “I used to think he was rubbish and couldn’t write at all and didn’t know what he was talking about, but then he praised my first book and I suddenly realised he was an incomparable master of supernatural terror!” — Sam Markuels, author of The Sticky White Hands Now the fact of the matter is that after Mark's first book was published, he received praise from many quarters, from many respected quarters, and one of those quarters was Ramsey Campbell. He received praise from Ramsey Campbell. So Mark put a link on his own website that linked to information about Ramsey Campbell and Mark wrote under this link the words, "Ramsey Campbell -- the MASTER". And later he praised Ramsey in many ways. And that's all well and good, it's showing respect and enthusiasm for a doyen of horror, it's a sort of Thank You from a new bright thing to an acknowledged genius of horror... But the problem is that in the time before Mark received that praise from Ramsey Campbell, he didn't really regard Ramsey with quite the same enthusiasm. Indeed for years... his opinion of the Master wasn't so high... not so high... Er, his opinion was more along the lines of this letter which appeared in a small-press magazine in the mid 1990s:  So there's a kind of hypocrisy going on here, or rather not really hypocrisy but an example of tactical games. And tactical games fascinate me, the chess moves that people make in the writing world are fascinating to watch. And that's kind of what these pseudo-quotes at the beginning of this spoof book are making fun of. The quotes are mocking the tactical games. All of them can be justified in the same way as Mark's 'quote' above, all of them have the ring of truth. Indeed I'll go further and state that all of them have the cock-ring of truth about them. And this is what satire is supposed to do. It's supposed to make people uncomfortable. So yes, the quotes are mean-spirited. But ask yourselves: where is the meanness coming from? Is it coming from me? All of it? Nope. I thank you. | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 212.219.233.223 |
Er... Oops! Much bigger than I was anticipating... If anyone can shrink it, I'd be grateful. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.8.25.31 |
Sorry - I don't know how relevant this is, but would I be right in thinking that the advance unbound proofs of the original printing of Worming the Harpy were sent to me in the hope of a quote? On other matters - well, no, folk here haven't "offended themselves". Your choice of words offended them and me. | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 212.219.233.223 |
I have no idea if they were or not, Ramsey. I was (and am) grateful for the positive blurb you gave me for my second book (Eyelidiad) though. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.8.25.31 |
Well, there you are. That's a quote obtained from a writer you described as overrated and pompous. See the similarity to what you copied from the letter-column above? | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 212.219.233.223 |
Well, I didn't ask for a blurb from you. The publisher did that without me knowing... But yes I was grateful, for the generosity of the act, rather than because I was able to use that quote to my advantage. In fact I have never deployed that quote anywhere. My publisher used it but I thought it would be hypocritical for me to use it afterwards, so I didn't. So er... the situation is different. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.184.108.152 |
And I'll just say that i think you're an arse because of your behaviour last time you were here. Nothing to do with this book. Just your general arse-type personality. | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 212.219.233.223 |
Clarification. Ah thanks.  | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.8.25.31 |
Well, I'll clarify on Marc's behalf if I may, and as I see it. I think you relish causing arguments and don't appear to care who gets hurt in the process. I would also say (on the basis, as he says, of previous behaviour) that you get very annoyed if people don't share your sense of humour - in fact, not just annoyed but aggressive. | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 212.219.233.223 |
That might be true, I don't know. I don't see myself like that at all. I primarily see myself as an unpalatable-truth teller. Or maybe as an unpalatable truth-teller. But it's hard for anyone to know what they really are from the inside. So you might be right. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.8.25.31 |
Don't hide behind wordplay, Rhys. Try examining yourself in the terms I've suggested and on the basis of how you affect others. Just on a point - are you saying you didn't know until after it was used that your publisher used my quote? | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.8.25.31 |
Let me also say that nothing on this thread has changed my opinion of Mark Samuels' work, and I stand by everything I said in the introduction to Glyphotech. Indeed, I have him on the contents list of an anthology I hope to place, and I've no intention of removing him. | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 81.101.253.71 |
> Just on a point - are you saying you didn't know until after it was used that your publisher used my quote? Yes. Absolutely. Of course. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.8.25.31 |
Strange behaviour by a publisher! I don't think any of mine have ever failed to show me in advance of publication a quote they've specifically obtained for a book. | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 81.101.253.71 |
He wasn't very communicative. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
Anyone who goes around as a self-described "unpalatable truth-teller" (or the other hyphenated way), has to know... he's not going to make many friends. No one plans a party list, and says, "Oh honey, don't forget to invite the unpalatable truth-teller." You just may want to rethink that (poisonously subjective, btw) hat your wearing, Rhys. No one's making you wear it but yourself. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.184.108.152 |
Even his publishers apparently don't want to talk to him. | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.196 |
Hmmm. I must say that the more I find out about this, the less I like it. Rhys has probably gone again by now but I'll just say this in case he's still watching. Rhys - you can parody something without being personal. I can imagine a book where writers are asked to parody their own writing, or each others' - I think that would be quite good if it was done in the right spirit. A general parody of the horror genre would be interesting. But the more you try to explain yourself here, the more this looks like nothing more than personal attacks on individuals. That's not parody of the horror genre, that's just being insulting and vindictive to the individuals concerned. I'm afraid my views have altered on this issue ... | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.151.109.99 |
Caroline, I wish this thread had ended with your post 'Friday, July 13, 2012 - 01:02 pm:' | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.196 |
Me too, Des. But it was Rhys who chose to take it further by saying it wasn't "case closed" and effectively (in my opinion) showing that he *was* trying to insult individuals rather than parody horror generally. I fear he only has himself to blame! Now, perhaps it should be "case closed" and we can all make our own minds up? I suspect we've all made them up by now anyway. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.9.253.121 |
I haven't. I'm still waiting for my review copy. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
Er, one other thing... is Alexander Johnson, Rhys Hughes? | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.8.21.60 |
I don't think I know the name, Craig. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.152.62.175 |
I know people have laughed, but I think this thread has been a very sad experience for most of us. But painful rows do look funny I suppose after the dust has settled and to those not involved. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.152.62.175 |
That magazine page WAS mean. No hang on - *posting* it was. I think your stories have vitality, Ramsey, and life. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.152.62.175 |
Hey, Rhys; people can change their minds about writers they like. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.151.109.99 |
To answer, Craig, Alexander Johnson is not Rhys. I met Alexander once in about 1992-94 (about when I think that extract was published). I no longer own the 1500 plus or minus contributor copies from the 80s or 90s (and I think that came from a mag in which I appeared as well as mentionedin tha extract) so I can't check it. As you can see, conntroversy reigned without the the help of the internet in those heady days and heady mags! I agree with Tony that this thread made a sad turn or two in a few places. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.152.62.175 |
We should think before we write; 'I will not be able to unsay this'. It's been like a shifting of tectonic plates. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.151.109.99 |
Interestingly, that inability to 'unsay', Tony, is certainly the unique case on RCMB the 'ineditability' of which, in many ways, is a good thing and reflects the crystallisation of print within the early mags I just mentioned. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.8.21.60 |
Help! Who's Alexander Johnson and why is he relevant here? | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.151.109.99 |
Ramsey, 'Alexander Johnson, Derbyshire' was the person who wrote approximately half of that page Rhys posted above. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.8.21.60 |
Ah! Thanks, Des! By the way, did you post the link to the anthology on Shocklines? Or I can if you like. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.151.109.99 |
No, Ramsey, I have only posted a link to this thread on the book's 'private' Facebook page set up by Rhys, just after this thread first started (I recall). | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.151.109.99 |
Oh, sorry, I misread your question, Ramsey. No, I can't recall posting a link to the anthology itself on Shocklines or anywhere else. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.151.109.99 |
Oh, I might have mentioned it on the 'private' All Hallows forum, in the same hopeful terms as the very first post on this thread. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.151.109.99 |
It was also mentioned by the TTA site: http://ttapress.com/1333/the-grin-of-the-doll-who/ | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.151.109.99 |
And as I am an aspirational completist, I should add that Ramsey has now linked to the anthology on the Shocklines site: http://shocklinesforum.yuku.com/topic/21045/Fun | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.152.62.175 |
I think this must have all been more harsh to you Des than anyone else on here. The middle's a rotten place. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.152.62.175 |
The TTA piece sounds like trying to describe what next Monday morning will be like, and being glad of it, and being celebratory of the sound of stamping feet. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.151.109.99 |
Not sure exactly what you mean by either of your last posts, Tony, but, as.I think I said above, nothing surprises me from any quarter on this electronic world of forums and ebooks. And it happened too before this electronic wold existed, now only magnified. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.152.62.175 |
I just mean you have a lot of contact with Rhys, and it feels like he's slightly betrayed your attempts at removing any possible friction from this situation, trying to make it all amicable and good-natured. The TTA press thing - it seemed to be saying the book was great 'in advance', and suggesting Rhys's acting up was almost to be lauded, and that doing things for charity excused their motives. I just wasn't sure of it. I think I might overdo metaphor sometimes... | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.151.109.99 |
I don't think what TTA was saying - amusingly - was exactly that. As to me, I go through contrasting cycles of electronic relationship with Rhys. All I can say is that Rhys' fiction is genius (a shorthand word for many various factors) as I hope I have shown in various reviews. As I also said above, the work is all important. And I feel that the only work that will be remembered in the long term from among those of us on this thread is that of Rhys and Ramsey. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.152.62.175 |
So far! ;) | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
Re: Alexander Johnson, thanks Des for clearing up that suspicion in my mind (and sorry Ramsey for not being clearer). And I feel that the only work that will be remembered in the long term from among those of us on this thread is that of Rhys and Ramsey. SInce this thread seems to be in some part about cruel candor, let me then be perfectly frank: Judging from the sample I read of The Grin of the Doll...? Beyond question, it most certainly won't be for that. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.152.62.175 |
Craig - yes, cruelty breeds cruelty. I was about to say how much I thought The White Hands sucked but then thought no, I'm not going to be harsh to someone just because they were. (I'm glad I managed to avoid fan mags. What a bitch-fest the writing scene can be sometimes - especially the small press.) | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.151.109.99 |
In case people reading this thread cursorily think Tony's reference above is to White Hands: the truly great horror story by Mark Samuels, I am sure it is not. I think we shall be into all sorts of tangles if we treat this ebook too seriously. I think that is why Ramsey started his 'fun' thread on Shocklines. | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 114.25.186.113 |
"And I feel that the only work that will be remembered in the long term from among those of us on this thread is that of Rhys and Ramsey." I'm not at all sure about that, Des (and I don't see the relevance to the point being discussed, anyway). Personally, I don't find Rhys's work particularly memorable, and I'm saying that as someone who believes it is important to remain objective toward the work of a writer, despite any friction that may arise with another writer I admire (in this case, Ramsey). I enjoyed some of his earlier stories at the time, but honestly can't remember any of them now. On the other hand, dozens of Ramsey's stories (not to mention the novels) are etched on my mind, and even the ones I feel are not as substantial still linger in the memory. There are at least a few writers who've posted on this board whose work I think will be remembered, and they are still developing. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.151.109.99 |
Huw, none of us will be here to prove that personal opinion of mine in the long term as I'm talking several decades if not centuries. I mentioned the possibility not because of the relevance to this thread necessarily but it seems to me that such threads on various forums since the Internet impinged on my consciousness since 1999 encourages tangents as long as such tangents are at least on *reasonable* topic. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.66.23.11 |
personally I think Gary Mac has a far better chance than Rhys of being remembered in decades to come. At least Zed has broken out of the small presses trap. From what I've read of Rhys's writing, the small press is where he'll stay. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.151.109.99 |
Forgot Zed had been on this thread! Looking back he came as a hoodie into this gangland. ;) | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.29.182.194 |
>>>the small press is where he'll stay. You mean like that forgotten writer H P Lovecraft, Weber? | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.29.182.194 |
And who was that painter who never sold much - Vincent something . . . ? Dutch, I think. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.152.62.175 |
These days it feels like the small press is a strata somewhere between being unknown/unpublished and being published, sometimes forever never quite mixing with either. Nowadays, someone writes a book and then it's out there on the shelves, in the trolleys, there's no small press preamble. It can feel sometimes that the small press is a portal you can stay trapped in by being almost too preoccupied with it. It's such a complex place, too. As I once said to my son, I wish there were badges we could wear that told you who were nice and not so nice, who was being professional and who was just mucking about. | ||
| Jonathan (Jonathan) Username: Jonathan Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 80.4.146.163 |
That's the frustrating thing. The small and indie presses are a fertile ground for literary experimentation and development. Some of my favourite books have come out of that arena. I love anything by Elastic Press just because Andrew Hook is such a damn fine editor and has such a great eye for a good short story. Gary Fry's Poe's Progeny introduced me to the short fiction of Adam Nevill, which then inspired me to ask Adam for a story when I edited my first anthology. I'd been reading Bestwick and McMahon's work for a long time before I asked them to write for Abaddon and Solaris. It was the way they diligently persevered at their profession and also the way in which they conducted themselves and their perceived standing in the field. So yes, the small presses are an invaluable resource. But. It is also a constant turmoil of petty arguments and recriminations. Something I have never understood. Nobody in the small and indie presses are rolling around in money, there are no huge financial stakes at play here. Neither are wider (and by wider I mean amongst the general reading public and amongst the big publishing houses) reputations built here. What does happen, however, is that people who behave badly actually mar their reputation before they could have had a chance at wider success. I know that Mark Samuels came up here. I quite like what I read of Mark, but his behaviour a few years ago made me wary of him as a publisher. That's the thing that some people occasionally forget about the internet; editors read it too and whatever you publish there is available to everybody. So, yes, I love the small presses but I am utterly utterly baffled by the jealousies and rivalries that can be found therein. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.152.62.175 |
Des - I tried to read White Hands but couldn't finish it. It felt 'faux'. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.151.109.99 |
You mean 'The White Hands' by Mark Samuels, Tony? I largely agree with Jonathan. Oh for the days of Nemonymous when I only considered anonymous submissions! I think this strife is the same in all artistic worlds, sadly. Regarding Rhys and the (so-called) Small Press. Here's one Gray Friar prepared earlier: http://www.grayfriarpress.com/catalogue/brothel.html | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.8.27.240 |
I very much enjoyed both "The White Hands" and The White Hands. Published by a very fine small press, too! | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
This thread is perhaps the only thing that makes me grateful I've not had internet access at home for a while, so couldn't get drawn into it. Literary parody is a complex business. As such classic sources as The Faber Book of Parodies illustrate, it can be a source of brilliant illumination and ironic perspective. But the amateur press (of which the genre small press is a tiny sub-section) abounds in parodies that lack any quality other than pettiness. There are three strands of literary parody: affectionate tribute, ironic criticism and personal mockery. In my experience, Rhys mostly goes for the second option. He's consistently maintained the view that horror fiction lacks intellectual and stylistic merit, and has expressed this view in articles as well as the odd parodic story. All of which is fair enough: it seems pointless to interpret that as enemy action. I enjoy that aspect of Rhys' writing without necessarily agreeing with his stance. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 129.11.77.198 |
He does say it lacks intellectual and stylistic merit. Hence my lengthy comment above. The only problem is that he hasn't really read much of it. He knows my position here. I tell him often enough. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.151.109.99 |
And also there are often very blurred margins between Horror/Ghost Story/Supernatural Literature and Weird Literature and Literary Literature and SF/Surreal/Absurdism. I think it is wrong to generalise or ghetto-ise. | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.196 |
"And also there are often very blurred margins between Horror/Ghost Story/Supernatural Literature and Weird Literature and Literary Literature and SF/Surreal/Absurdism. I think it is wrong to generalise or ghetto-ise." Absolutely! That's why I can never understand people who say they don't like horror. "Horror" covers such a broad spectrum of forms - that's its beauty, as far as I'm concerned. Regarding Rhys' "Grin ..." ebook, using Joel's categories of parody: "There are three strands of literary parody: affectionate tribute, ironic criticism and personal mockery." In this case, I fear (in my own opinion now) that Rhys has strayed into personal mockery. If it was either of the other two types (which is what I thought it would be initially) then I'd enjoy it, but personal mockery or insults .. no, that's not for me. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.145.208.183 |
Plus the ethos of this book seems wrong to me. You don't spoof a genre just by writing deliberately badly within that genre which is what rhys admits is what he asked people to do. If you want to write a good spoof, you write a good story that plays with the conventions you're spoofing. Otherwise you're just writing a bad story. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.151.109.99 |
There are bad bad stories. and there are good bad stories. it's up to the reader to judge which are which. IMO. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
Wow—I think Weber right there might have made the most brilliant point yet! He's absolutely right! Now that he's finally cogent, he decides to jump off a building... geez.... | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.147.55.79 |
He has, you're right. It throws the whole point into question. Des - I was talking about the Samuels story, yes. I just couldn't warm to it. There was an air to it I just couldn't accept. You wonder, when someone pushes people away like this, where they want to end up? This thread has made me question motives. I used to think I could read people, but I can't, it seems. Is Rhys coming back? To admit it was all a scare tactic, and that he likes us really? I wonder if it's left his mind. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.9.244.92 |
"He's consistently maintained the view that horror fiction lacks intellectual and stylistic merit..." He's wrong - more precisely, ignorant. | ||
| Mark_samuels (Mark_samuels) Username: Mark_samuels Registered: 04-2010 Posted From: 78.146.219.44 |
Perhaps it’s rather strange for me to come on here and apologise for comments I made almost twenty years ago, though perhaps not quite as strange as the fact that a certain person has gone to the trouble to locate and redistribute them--anyway, apologies, Ramsey. I must have had a premonition someone would eventually bring this matter up, viz; when interviewed in 2008 by Midnight Street magazine I made a point of referring to, and repudiating, those arrogant remarks I made previously in 1994. I have to confess that I’m still not a huge fan of all Ramsey’s novels (my favourite being The Grin of the Dark, which I enjoyed immensely) but then again I am not a huge fan of the horror novel in and of itself, believing that short stories or novellas tend to be horror’s “natural” medium. I have become a convert to his short stories though, and I think the reason it took me so long to appreciate his work was because I failed to recognise the way he utilises language in a purposefully “surrealistic” mode in order to obtain his unique effects. And yes, I can be blamed for not being mature enough in my twenties to appreciate this aspect. Did I suddenly change my view on Ramsey’s work from negative to positive when I discovered that he enjoyed my book The White Hands? I suspect that it was a gradual process rather an overnight conversion, but isn’t that often the case as one reads more and more of a given author’s work? I really can’t say it ever occurred to me to suddenly start calling him “Master” and seeking any advantage for myself through our association. From memory what actually went up on my long-defunct website was a quote from an Oxford University reference book citing Ramsey as “the most respected living British horror author.” Thanks. Mark S. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.8.19.86 |
Don't worry, Mark! I once wrote an infamous diatribe about Lovecraft, but I've certainly changed my mind since. And I think I've already said somewhere on here that I'd be horribly embarrassed now by views I expressed long ago about films I now regard very highly - Ordet, for instance. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.151.109.99 |
Good to note that there are now at least four names on this thread whose long-term appreciation by posterity is, imo, assured: Ramsey, Rhys, Joel, Mark S. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
http://youtu.be/v_c9Eg2Kj_Y | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 2.102.69.8 |
Des, that makes about eight people condemned to pointless obscurity, who really have no purpose in continuing to live and should be ashamed to be seen breathing air that might be put to much better use inside geniuses of super darkness. Rope or gas? | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.151.109.99 |
Ligottian knotted rope for me, | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.150.19.23 |
IMO what I've read of Rhys's writing was distinctly un-memorable. Tricksy wordplay with no real story or substance. I couldn't even tell you the titles of the stories without looking in the book. The Garys have far more chance of being remembered, as their work shows style, substance and memorable stories (not to mention one of them has a mass market contract already and spews books out at a phenomonal rate - no disrespect intended to the small presses but the more people that are buying your work the more you'll be remembered. I know there are plenty of good writers in the small presses, but IMO Rhys ain't one of them). | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.158.156.168 |
Gary - yes, this glooms me, too. I've read a bit of Rhys and think he's OK. I've read only a little Zed because of my daft jealousy issues (when I'm as published as he is I'll read him!), and read only half a Mark Samuels story. Does this speak badly of horror or me that they aren't seared into my brain? Capote only put out one book of shorts, but claimed to have written about 500. Shirley Jackson didn't put out many either. there are some authors with tiny outputs who are yet still remembered for these handfuls, handfuls that are way more memorable than the above chappies (Er, until I've read Zed!). Ramsey is the tops out of them, for the simple fact of his voice alone, let alone the stories. Also I know I've only written a few stories but about 95% of them have found homes. But I write slowly. If I want to be 'remembered' I have to get a move on. Des's words have sort of fired me up a bit today | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.150.19.23 |
BTW my use of the word spew was in relation to the speed at which he seems to produce novels and not any kind of comment on the quality - so far all excellent. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 2.102.69.8 |
Let's be fair here. Rhys is a fine writer. But if that kind of thing doesn't work for you, he's not your guy. Dismissing his work on the basis of the type of fiction he writes is as daft as him dismissing horror. There's a theory that holds that some folk look at the world darkly, some lightly. Is the whole game of life a tragedy or a comedy? Psychological disposition is the key to this. Some like their fiction grim, others playful. Eg, Gary Mc sees everything in portentous terms, Rhys in an anarchic way. I accept neither's claim that the other is on the wrong track. It all seems a bit silly to me. Just a thought. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 2.102.69.8 |
To strech the comparison slightly, Beethoven could never understand why Mozart wasted his genius on relatively trivial stories like The Magic Flute. For Beethoven, music was about only truly profound issues. Mozart was eminently more playful. Both approaches were almost certainly governed by psychological disposition, but the work of both is remembered as being of equal weight. There are many paths to artistic worthiness. Pointless throwing buns at someone taking another route; they're just as far advanced as you are. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 213.205.225.100 |
Des's words have sort of fired me up a bit today -------------- Good. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.158.156.168 |
It's when people say their way is best that is the problem. Also, any method or approach can be fine when done well. It's like the old row between some sf fans and horror fans, that they still get lumped together. I think they should be lumped together myself because both ask different kinds of 'what if'. In the end, all fiction is 'what if' anyway, to be honest. SF doesn't have to have any technology in it, when it comes down to it - comedy is a kind of SF 'lite' because it plays with the volume levels of the emotions, behaviour. Er, going off on a tangent. Sorry. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.158.156.168 |
Des - they have. Yesterday I found an old (the oldest and only) picture of my young self and felt suddenly like I'd let that boy down. I want to try and belatedly help 'him'. He was such a sad lad. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 2.102.69.8 |
I had a similar experience when I found a photo of myself as a lad, Tony. The person in the shot looked like someone else and I felt sorry for the daft bugger. But I think experiences like this help towards self-forgiveness/self-acceptance. I always hated my pale, clumsy, bland self. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 2.102.69.8 |
(Now I just leave that for others. ) | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.158.156.168 |
I once saw a cheery boy in the street, too, walking out of a Forbidden Planet with his dad. He was dressed as I used to, like an old bloke. I was sat in a cafe opposite and nearly broke down. It's a bit embarrassing going about feelings like this but certain moments really can affect us. Yes, I used to think I was really ugly and never spoke to girls much, or indeed anyone if I could help it. As it turns out I looked just like my kids and they look great, one of them more confident than I've ever been in my life. God, if only we could realise things sooner. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 2.102.69.8 |
Yes, that's a flaw in the human condition. We acquire wisdom after the event and are unable to use it because the moment's gone. We tell it to others in similar situations but they don't understand, because to understand you need to live it. Intelligent design, my arse. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.158.156.168 |
Gary - that's why I hate all these quotes on FB; they're trying to pass on wisdom that has only been useful to them at that time. It's like ghosts and UFOs - there's no point telling people you've seen one, at all. It's for *you*. In fact talking of any of these things is like squandering them, too. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.158.156.168 |
I mean denigrating them. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 2.102.69.8 |
As Oscar Wilde said, always pass on advice. It never does you any good. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.145.209.196 |
To be fair to me Gary, I didn't criticise Rhys for the type of thing he writes. I criticised him for the way he writes it. All tricksy wordplay, unmemorable and no substance. I read in lots of genres, from whimsical light stuff to darkest horror. I just find Rhys to be not a particularly good writer from the little I've read. And with his general arse type personality added to that, I feel no compunction to try any more of it. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 2.102.69.8 |
How much have you read, Weber? Rhys has written over 600 stories. Remember, I've criticised Rhys for not reading enough Ramsey. Cuts both ways, surely. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.158.156.168 |
'General arse type personality'. Ha! Sigh - Rhys is nicer on Facebook. I quite like him there but hate him here. What a farrago. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
Gary's comparison of Rhys with Marmite is quite apposite. When you get a fair mouthful of Rhys it's quite memorable. But sometimes he's spread too thin. Rhys highlights for me include 'Lunarhampton', 'The Jam of Hypnos', 'Rediffusion' and the sperm bank robbery episode in Mister Gum. Which are comic writings of different kinds: facetious, whimsical, satirical and profane. Comic writing relies so much on the contingent that it rarely spans generations – Wodehouse, Thurber and Runyan may still be read, but are they still understood? Was Spike Milligan ever understood? Comparing Rhys with contemporary horror writers is misleading because there's no common agenda. It's like comparing grilled sea bass with bass guitar. | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 178.116.61.103 |
It's like comparing grilled sea bass with bass guitar. | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 178.116.61.103 |
Speaking of Thurber: I only ever found one (very) short story of his, "The Unicorn in the Garden", and I've never forgotten it. Strange one sees so little of his work. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.8.30.128 |
Here's a fine selection: http://www.amazon.co.uk/James-Thurber-Writings-Drawings-Library/dp/1883011221/re f=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1342614739&sr=1-2 | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 178.116.61.103 |
Thanks, Ramsey! | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
I've only read one Thurber short-story, "A Couple Of Hamburgers" (1935), which I found in Modern Short Stories: The Uses of Imagination, ed. by Arthur Mizener (1967). (I think this was originally an old school book tome; nevertheless it is, to me, the single greatest collection of modern short stories ever.) The story's a rather funny short-short, about a bickering husband and wife on a road-trip... with a funny ending taken from one angle; from another, ominously dark. I really should seek out more from Mr. Thurber. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 166.216.226.77 |
Omg! I only just now got the pun in Thurber's title to that story's ending! Ha! | ||
| Mark_samuels (Mark_samuels) Username: Mark_samuels Registered: 04-2010 Posted From: 78.146.219.130 |
Thanks Ramsey You're a noble fellow Mark S. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.8.26.101 |
I have the anthology and intend to review it. | ||
| Stephen Theaker (Stephen_theaker) Username: Stephen_theaker Registered: 12-2009 Posted From: 92.232.184.137 |
It's okay, funnier in some places than others (the funnier bits probably being the parts Rhys wrote). I think Rhys did perhaps make a mistake using the name Lamblake Heinz, because it was bound to raise hackles, and creates an expectation in the reader that it's going to be a spoof of one particular writer. But although it hangs a few bits of your biography on the character, it's really just the latest in a long line of Tuckerisations in his fiction. The writing style is nothing like yours. Some of the responses to it on Facebook have been a bit histrionic, I reckon. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.8.19.71 |
I'm not on Facebook, but I understand the responses were to some extent provoked by the "British Society of Weird Fantasy" section. | ||
| Stephen Theaker (Stephen_theaker) Username: Stephen_theaker Registered: 12-2009 Posted From: 92.232.184.137 |
Okay, thanks. They were talking about the "bleating vitriol" and "repellant views" and "hurtful, poisonous garbage" - one person described Rhys as a "cyberpsychopath"! - but no one would actually say what provoked them to say that, except in the vaguest terms. If it's about that bit, it does seems like a hysterical over-reaction to some darn gentle spoofery. Much as I love the BFS, its awards do reward its friends and members disproportionately. From the way people were talking, I'd thought there must be something really offensive buried in one of the stories. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.8.19.71 |
But is it meant to be read as referring to a society, Stephen? | ||
| Stephen Theaker (Stephen_theaker) Username: Stephen_theaker Registered: 12-2009 Posted From: 92.232.184.137 |
You mean, people are reading it as spoofery of you in particular? But why would that provoke such extreme responses? It's a silly, impertinent book, but hardly savage in its satire, the first couple of pages aside. Maybe they're treating that passage as an actual accusation? Phrases like "repellant views" and "hurtful, poisonous garbage" do make it sound like people might be taking that passage as a straightforward statement of fact, silly as that would be. Perhaps that's because they've read the passage out of context - Mark did say he'd been sent something in an email rather than having read the actual book. | ||
| Kate (Kathleen) Username: Kathleen Registered: 09-2009 Posted From: 86.131.45.253 |
I've seen the passage too and it does come off as mean-spirited and spiteful rather than playful spoofery. Surely if it were playful it would be fun to read. | ||
| Stephen Theaker (Stephen_theaker) Username: Stephen_theaker Registered: 12-2009 Posted From: 92.232.184.137 |
There's a world of difference between a slightly mean-spirited joke at someone's expense and "hurtful, poisonous garbage" or "repellant views". Ironically, given the "repellant views" comment, the first commenter on Mark's Facebook thread was this writer: http://www.intensedebate.com/users/561456 Express views like that and it seems people will happily still be friends with you on Facebook. But making a joke about Ramsey's large collection of BFS awards is beyond the pale..? | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.196 |
So, has this argument gone over onto Facebook now then? I'm glad I never bothered to join Facebook. Ramsey, it'll be interesting to see what you make of Rhys' book. | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 86.184.16.149 |
I've heard many reports about what I'm supposed to have written and most of it doesn't resemble anything that I did write, so the best thing I can do is make the book free to all... This way people won't have to guess at the contents (though they probably still will). So here is the coupon-code to get it for free: GV69P And here is the link for the ebook itself: https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/169603 I especially recommend the M.R. James spoofs 'Whistle and I'll Come Inside You, My Lad' and 'A Warning to the Bi-Curious'... | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 86.184.16.149 |
The charity target wasn't reached yet, by the way... But that's OK, because half the profits of my next novel are going to Animal Aid and there's going to be a Tuckerization auction to raise extra money for the cause. A Tuckerization project that I first mooted here, as it happens (although the plot is now completely different): http://www.knibbworld.com/campbelldiscuss/messages/1/4035.html | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.196 |
"But that's OK, because half the profits of my next novel are going to Animal Aid and there's going to be a Tuckerization auction to raise extra money for the cause." Nice one, Rhys! | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 86.169.129.188 |
It was the publisher's idea originally, Caroline. I'll post details on my blog soon. It's a project that has been in gestation for two and a half years. Finally it's coming together... People will be able to 'bid' to be gladiators. And they'll get to chose their weapons, etc. | ||
| Mick Curtis (Mick) Username: Mick Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.178.159.240 |
So, has this argument gone over onto Facebook now then? I'm glad I never bothered to join Facebook. Erm, there's a teensy bit more than that on Facebook, Caroline. Most folk there know nothing of this spat at all. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.8.31.212 |
I think you're blurring the issue, Stephen. Never mind. I'll be reviewing the book, and Rhys has already undertaken to set out in advance what he thinks I'll say. | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 86.130.242.194 |
Yes I'm going to second-guess the review. And a bet has been laid as to how accurate my guess will be. Winner donates the pot to the charity of his choice. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.8.31.212 |
Ah! Charity again! | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 86.130.242.194 |
Yes I do a lot of work for charity and always have. Don't worry, this doesn't mean I'm not a bastard... | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.8.31.212 |
Anyway, Rhys, I'm glad the book has brought you some publicity, as I expect you are. Perhaps the Welsh literary establishment will take notice at last. | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 86.130.16.182 |
I doubt it. I'm being translated into Arabic though. Which is nice... | ||
| Stephen Theaker (Stephen_theaker) Username: Stephen_theaker Registered: 12-2009 Posted From: 92.232.184.137 |
I don't think I've blurred the issue, Ramsey, because that is the issue for me: how silly and disproportionate the response to this book (or rather to a single passage of it, or whatever was in your email) has been. But I guess this is how fans usually react when people take the mickey out of their heroes, and Rhys was after all, I suppose, deliberately trying to get a rise out of those people. His thesis was that the horror community couldn't take a joke; the answer has been predictable - some can (e.g. Peter Tennant's mildly disapproving Black Static posts about the book, which have been very funny), others less so. Maybe I'd feel differently if I was one of those spoofed in the book. I was certainly rather irked when one writer, whose book I had criticised in a review for its over-frequent rape scenes, posted a story on their blog a month later about the brutal slaying of a rapist called Stephan... Could have been just a coincidence, of course, but I'll admit it bugged me! | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.151.109.99 |
Generally, I feel that anyone who creates a satire of another person or of an institution should expect a degree of antagonism depending how strongly the satire is pitched. It's up to others to judge that pitch and be publicly aggrieved by it or ignore it or welcome it as a tribute to their own prominence in whatever field they are in to elicit such a satire. Equally, I don't believe Rhys deserved the extreme sort of tirade I saw on Facebook yesterday, Rhys who has created much internationally respected literature since the early 1990s. | ||
| Stephen Theaker (Stephen_theaker) Username: Stephen_theaker Registered: 12-2009 Posted From: 92.232.184.137 |
I agree with all of that, Des. | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 86.130.246.217 |
Thanks Des! The thing is, though, that this is a game of tactical head chess. So the rules (of politeness, etc) will never be the same as they ought to be in normal everday life. I played the opening gambit back in 1999 when I called Ramsey "overrated". Everything since then has been chess, with long gaps between moves. Ramsey's email to his supporters yesterday was a way of getting his pawns to line up (previously they had been in disarray). His offer of a review of the book was a bishop's move, very clever; my intention to second-guess it is a blocking move by a bishop, etc, etc. One of the prime rules of tactical head chess is to pretend that tactical head chess isn't being played... But at the end of the day, the stakes are really quite low. I lose the respect of the horror community, a respect I never had anyway. Too bad for me! | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.151.109.99 |
I don't believe in an entity called the 'horror community' ... Only literature which will outlast us or not. Hope that doesn't sound too pretentious. | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 86.130.246.217 |
No it doesn't, because it's not pretending to be anything. It is only what it is. And that's good. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
I'm baffled. Maybe this is another one of those Brit (and Welsh) things I just don't get here in the States, but all this is coming off like a Monty Python skit. So are you guys arguing and sniping and sparring, or are you just good-naturedly joshing each other, or what?... | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.8.28.38 |
Join the confused, Craig! I'm still wondering in what way the passage at the centre of the discussion isn't a lampoon. Still, Des says above "for lampoon, please read pastiche." | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.8.28.38 |
Mind you, I'm mostly wondering why I wasn't invited to contribute to the anthology. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.8.28.38 |
And here's something else to confuse me! http://postmodernmariner.blogspot.co.uk/2010/01/df-marenghi.html Is there a missing bit, Des? You seem to bring my name in out of nowhere. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.8.28.38 |
Ah, here's the hint of an explanation. http://www.ligotti.net/showthread.php?p=37763#post37763 | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.151.109.99 |
I said "also for lampoon...". I feel there are many ingredients historically to this type of literature over the centuries. Posterity (if this book has one!) may indeed end up saying that Rhys hit completely the wrong note or it was a Monty Python incident as Craig speculates or something else altogether or whatever else is decided like Rhys' chess match or whatever Ramsey's review eventually says. Like the so-called 'horror comnmnuity', I don't think there will be one entity of folk who speaks with one voice about it. Yes, I think Rhys should have invited you, Ramsey, to contribute to it. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.151.109.99 |
Again as to Rhys' chess match, I'd return to my above thoughts on 'The Intentional Fallacy' as a literary theory not something to be practised in real life! It's where one sees Rhys' ebook falling within the spectrum of literature to real life. A lot of interesting potential speculations here that may determine the future course of satire in general! | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.151.109.99 |
I can't now explain why I made that reference to you on Rhys' site, Ramsey. I can only guess that there was some contemporaneous context seeminglyimportant at the time but now I can't remember! | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.8.28.38 |
I'm sure Rhys will explain, and who knows, he might elucidate this comment of his about the book in question: "Already I have been warned that a certain demigod in the horror world doesn't 'really have a sense of humour about his own work'. But that's the entire point of my spoof -- it's a last ditch attempt to give that demigod one (a sense of humour, I mean!) and although I am bound to fail, I have no intention of reversing my intentions in this regard." | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.151.109.99 |
I hope Rhys will read 'Grin of the Dark' eventually. I maintain my opinion that he will enjoy it. It's just up his street, imo. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.31.184.63 |
I've been telling him that for about four years now. That's the sad thing here: Ramsey is a Hughesian writer. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.8.28.38 |
That certainly is sad. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.151.109.99 |
Sad, yes. But to pick up a point from Stephen, for those who have been Tuckerised by Rhys over the years (I think I was Tuckerised very early on in the early 1990s and am proud of that) - and hopefully the ebook will be seen to be the Tuckerisation of all time, leading to Rhys appreciating The Grin of The Dark and writing his review of it? | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 86.136.140.39 |
> I can't now explain why I made that reference to you on Rhys' site, Ramsey. > I can only guess that there was some contemporaneous context seeminglyimportant at the time but now I can't remember! If you look again at the way the other names are arranged, the eye picks up on the upper-case letters C M B in a scalene triangle but without the viewer being aware. This will suggest the name "Campbell" subconsciously. It's an old Psy Ops trick. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.8.28.38 |
... and who knows, he might elucidate this comment of his about the book in question: "Already I have been warned that a certain demigod in the horror world doesn't 'really have a sense of humour about his own work'. But that's the entire point of my spoof -- it's a last ditch attempt to give that demigod one (a sense of humour, I mean!) and although I am bound to fail, I have no intention of reversing my intentions in this regard." | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.151.109.99 |
Yes, that would be interesting to discover. But it so hard to define 'sense of humour' or locate it correctly in anyone: as it is often a disguise for something else or simply a moment of a mood where humour works and another day doesn't work. I wouldn't want to guess at anyone's sense of humour in art or life - or in the strange mixture of the two as perhaps demonstrated by the ebook in question. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.151.109.99 |
Perhaps relevant to that is your own comment above to Rhys: "I would also say (on the basis, as he says, of previous behaviour) that you get very annoyed if people don't share your sense of humour -" | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 86.143.174.54 |
Does that comment need elucidating? When I first mooted this project I asked if anyone had any objections. One of the objections raised was that horror writers, specifically Ramsey Campbell, don't have a sense of humour about their own work. I didn't regard that as sufficient reason to cancel the project. That 'eludicates' the first part of the comment. The second part of the comment is an example of me being pompous and self-important... Does that help? I doubt it. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.8.28.38 |
You mean the entire point is that I hadn't done so? Gosh. | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 86.143.174.54 |
The entire point was to be funny, to write funny stories. Stories funny at the expense of horror. An even bigger Gosh! | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.8.28.38 |
Sorry, Rhys, I think you're frantically backtracking. | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 86.184.22.183 |
Sorry, Ramsey, I don't think I am. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.8.28.38 |
Readers will decide. | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 86.184.22.183 |
Unless, of course, you mean that making the ebook free to everyone, so they can see for themselves what the contents really are (rather than relying on carefully selected extracts from a "come help me please" email) is backtracking... Ah yes, I see what you mean! Let me guess. "Lamblake Heinz is Welsh and so am I..." "Heinz is also famous for his eccentricity and aversion to prunes." "He also has an unspecified problem with aardvarks." I bet that extracts like those didn't appear in your email? | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.8.28.38 |
Should they have? | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 86.184.22.183 |
To be fair, yes. Your selection of extracts was designed to give the misleading impression that the ebook is entirely centred around you. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.8.28.38 |
Was it? By all means reproduce it here. | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 86.169.178.241 |
Why don't you? | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.8.28.38 |
Because I've asked you to do so. Please go ahead. | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 86.169.178.241 |
After you, I insist. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.8.28.38 |
No, Rhys. If you haven't seen any "selection of extracts designed to give the misleading impression that the ebook is entirely centred around you", don't pretend you have. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
The entire point was to be funny, to write funny stories. I think I can settle things here for myself, because from the sample provided much earlier, I just didn't find the stories funny. Sorry. At least, those commencing the book. I found them tedious, straining, confused and confusing. But then, maybe I don't get Welsh humor, which I never knew existed (and am still unsure if it does?...). And also, maybe it's that I never went in for the super-obscure press. I never really wanted to waste my time sifting through tons of stuff that couldn't make it into the real world of publishing... life is too short for me as a discriminating reader, and I already neglect too many works by authors I know and admire (like Ramsey, and the decidedly not "abysmal" [telling, that a writer would say that] Clive Barker). For someone who seems to be eschewing the entire horror field, and thinks he's above it all... I wonder why Rhys spends so much time mucking around in/with it? Another confusing thing, I just don't get, from all this. | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 86.149.146.143 |
Why thank you, Craig! That was very sweet of you.  | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
Well, now I feel bad.... Let's just say, what I read, it wasn't for me. I've never been big on parody fiction. I remember back in the day, friends reading Bored of the Rings, and I couldn't get into it. I wasn't even a terribly big fan of Douglas Adams. It's probably just a personal failing of mine, that I found them indeed, tedious (style over substance), straining (felt like it was constantly struggling to be what it is, which damaged suspension of disbelief), confused (I couldn't figure out what the author, or the author-behind-the-author, was trying to accomplish) and confusing (I didn't much understand what was going on). But I'm not much of a reader in this genre, so I probably don't get the conventions, the elements, etc.; as well, I'm unfamiliar with the finer points of the satire, so that's escaping me. And my standards are so terribly high in what I read, that my tolerance and patience levels are very short, when it comes to all genres of fiction. I'm just the wrong reader for this, bottom-line. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.8.29.191 |
Don't feel bad, Craig. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
All this reminds me strongly of what some people in the small press poetry world call the 'Poetry Wars' of the 1990s: a feud conducted through small press magazines and anthologies between two ill-defined groups, one based on the South Coast and the other in Yorkshire – essentially New Age mystics versus secular trade unionists. Not all of the first group were pretentious narcissists with delusions of druidhood. Not all of the second group were humourless tankies suffering from testosterone poisoning. But it doubtless felt like that if you were reading the other side's publications. It went on for several years and was quite nasty at times. Needless to say, the internet makes this kind of thing a lot worse (by generating the illusion of real-time social interaction when that is absolutely not the case), but really it's a disease of the amateur press. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.151.109.99 |
If this is a feud, I can't see who is in which group, and which group is which. And how big each group is, if they are groups. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.8.23.149 |
Read the book, Joel! I nearly have! | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 178.116.61.103 |
I'm in the bemused spectator camp. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
Ramsey, I don't have a home computer at the moment. The two MRJ parodies Rhys mentioned sound fun, but I suspect they don't exist. Rhys does that a lot – he takes you only halfway there. But I do know there's some vicious stuff in the e-book – one passage has been quoted to me – and Rhys quoting more harmless bits is disingenuous. If a revolver has two bullets and six empty chambers that doesn't make it harmless on balance. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
Er, does make it an unusual gun though. Firearms are not my specialist subject.  | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
I just don't see what purpose is achieved by this rancour. As Frank Muir might have said. | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.196 |
>>I just don't see what purpose is achieved by this rancour. As Frank Muir might have said.<< It took about 30 seconds for that to sink it ... but when it did, I couldn't stop laughing! Thanks, Joel. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.151.109.99 |
I still don't get it. Is it something to do with 'Call My Bluff'? | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.8.22.100 |
Joel, tut. | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.196 |
>>I still don't get it. Is it something to do with 'Call My Bluff'?<< Just try to imagine Frank Muir saying that line in your head, Des. | ||
| Mick Curtis (Mick) Username: Mick Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.181.208.239 |
I just don't see what purpose is achieved by this rancour. As Frank Muir might have said. Naughty lad! | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.145.216.50 |
I believe i heard Jonathan Ross say the same thing. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
It's utterly and hopelessly lost on an average American like me. So is Joel's joke. | ||
| Simon Bestwick (Simon_b) Username: Simon_b Registered: 10-2008 Posted From: 213.106.77.123 |
Craig- Fwank Muir, like Jonathan Woss, had something of a pwoblem with pwonunciation. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.151.109.99 |
I can't recall Frank Muir doing that. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
Craig- Fwank Muir, like Jonathan Woss, had something of a pwoblem with pronunciation. Ah! Thanks, Simon. Now that is a strictly British term, that we all still get in America. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.31.184.63 |
You certainly need it. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.31.184.63 |
In fact, it's the most apposite word to cross the Atlantic since "independence". | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.8.27.176 |
To be serious (which I suppose will offend Mr Hughes in itself), I fear I'm getting slow in my old age. But it really was a bit much for him to complain "Your selection of extracts was designed to give the misleading impression that the ebook is entirely centred around you" when his own announcement of the book on 8 June begins "Have you ever watched a ram in the sea?" Still, perhaps I'm mistaking the impression he set out to give. The two M. R. James pieces are indeed in the book, Joel. Here's a bit from the first one: “Yes!” laughed the apparition. “I am Emmer Jams! The mythical and hideous Provost of Doom! The phantom bummer of Eton! I’m going to bend you over and give you what for!” | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.129.57.26 |
The subtlety of the humour has flabbered my ghast and rendered my senses whelmed with something brown and smelly. Well he did say in his email he produced above that he wanted badly written stories... Looks like he got them. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.158.156.152 |
“Yes!” laughed the apparition. “I am Emmer Jams! The mythical and hideous Provost of Doom! The phantom bummer of Eton! I’m going to bend you over and give you what for!” Jesus. So Rhys wants to be a comedy writer now? Then why waste time bothering horror? Did Eric Morecambe waste time attacking Stephen King, or even mentioning Stephen King? I completely fail to see the point. I know why this antho was written and it certainly wasn't in fun. As for the constant reminding of 'it's for charity' - it's like running round waving an air freshener in an abattoir, that. It doesn't hide or excuse anything. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.158.156.152 |
Also - it's *using* the charity for ulterior motives. If they knew what they were being used for i don't think they'd feel very good about it. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.79.17.208 |
*reopening shutter after a long weekend* As Alexi Sayle said, if Hitler had invaded Poland for spina bifida we'd be okay with it. From scanning this thread, it seems he's thrown everything at distracting from the core of what he's doing. Human beings find failed attempts at obfuscation particularly distasteful: the slipping mask, the furtive leer, the snide jocular remark. Something stinks. I'd have some respect if he just came out and openly stated his objections. But people are often content to think of themselves as a gadfly. Like Socrates. Yep, look around at your living room and tell yourself you're like Socrates. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.8.18.129 |
Well, my review is done and will appear in due course. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
To be fair to Rhys he has written much funnier things. I don't think hostile parody is the best kind of parody, whatever the author or victim. The beauty of the 'History Today' sketches was that the context of the insults made them funny – they weren't funny in themselves. I won't patronise Rhys by trying to put this stunt in context or make excuses for it. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.145.211.107 |
Well he seems to have entirely missed the concept that to write a successful parody/spoof of a given genre you write as well or better than the usual purveyors of that genre but make the shortcomings of the genre apparent at the same time. Writing deliberately badly is just writing badly. All you get is a badly written piece of work. What's the point in that? | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 178.116.61.103 |
I've a couple of resits coming up, hence not much time for other reading matter. That said, Stephen Kong elicited a chuckle. Maybe I should read more. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
Where will be able to read your review, Ramsey? Here, or elsewhere? | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.151.109.99 |
I hope it is a real-time review. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.9.243.39 |
It'll be a column of mine, Craig. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.42.55.97 |
The depressing thing for me here is watching some bloke I used to like and get on with a bit turn himself into someone horrible. He's lying to himself and us. He went on about getting truth out and being honest but he's not applying that to himself. Anyway, this thread is fading. Thankfully. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.151.109.99 |
Following that, It may be a coincidence, but I had to gurn wryly when a few hours ago I received the book THE TRUTH SPINNER by Rhys Hughes. (This comes from the Wildside Press in USA and so I am very impressed. I only ordered it two or three days ago and it arrived in a huge lorry with WORLDWIDE SERVICES on the side!) It says on the back "Castor Jenkins is a Welshman who tells stories that may (or may not) be true...but no matter how fantastic, who can prove they never happened?" | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.42.55.97 |
(Gurns wryly) I think Rhys has tied his mind into a moral knot in which he can't tell where truth or lie started. He's whittling away his friends, I sincerely believe. He really needs to think about how he is perceived, and stop kidding himself he's so hard and pragmatic, or that everyone should follow his 'bravery'. We are not a Klingon race. | ||
| Kate (Kathleen) Username: Kathleen Registered: 09-2009 Posted From: 86.131.45.253 |
"We are not a Klingon race." Quite right. Some of us are Orion slave girls.  | ||
| John Llewellyn Probert (John_l_probert) Username: John_l_probert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.131.45.253 |
And some of us are very, very happy because of it | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.151.109.99 |
gurns wryly, again. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
Is this a good place to pose that old joke, what does the starship Enterprise have in common with toilet-paper? ... Surely only if I follow it with nothing, so this thread ends on that word. | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 178.116.61.103 |
Now Kate has made me curious about her Orion slave girl costume. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.140.213.21 |
I discovered at least one story (The Cream-Jest of Unset Custqrd) in Rhys Hughes's new book THE TRUTH SPINNER (Wildside Press) that is arguably relevant to the genesis of the Lamblake Heinz ebook. Future literary critics please be informed... And now that I've read on in the book (while real-time reviewing it), there seems to be a more subtle pathos and symbolism regarding the Rhys Hughes versus the Horror Genre issue in 'Hangfire Bubbler'...a wonderful story - also involving genies! Currently just reporting, not judging. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 2.27.143.122 |
Glad to hear it, Des. And the 'Cream-Jest' story is actually very good. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.8.26.134 |
In what way do you folk think it's relevant to the other book? | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.140.213.21 |
'The Cream-Jest of Unset Custard' (I believe first published in 2008) seems to encapsulate, in fictional form, the nub of the motive behind Rhys's criticism of the the horror genre etc that ostensibly drove him to create the now seemingly fluid ebook in question. I did not particularly like 'The Cream-Jest of Unset Custard' and, for me, it is overshadowed by some truly great fictions in 'The Truth Spinner'. For example, 'Hangfire Bubbler' (in the same book) is a far more sucessful attempt at portrating the Horror Genre versus Rhys Hughes subtext, with more pathos and subtlety. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.140.213.21 |
PS: Strictly speaking, Ramsey, I'm not sure how relevant it will be to the Amazon ebook (as opposed to the Smashwords version) in view of Rhys' statement here: http://shocklinesforum.yuku.com/sreply/180532/Fun | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.8.26.134 |
Right, but in what way is it relevant to the original edition? What would you say the motive was as you see it? As for the Shocklines statement, it seems rather to contract this one: "Unfortunately, being upset isn't a logically strong enough objection to merit a cancellation of The Grin of the Doll Who Ate his Mother's Face in the Dark. Spoofs do upset people from time to time; but I suspect that few people aregenuinely upset by anything I say or do. I imagine they are more likely to be tactically upset, which is quite a different matter." Oh no, hang on - that's followed by "However, if anyone out there really does feel offended by this project, please let me know and I will consider your feelings. I'm not entirely an unfeeling and inconsiderate brute of a barbarian jokester!" | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.140.213.21 |
I am perhaps the wrong person to ask that question about motive in view of my life-long interest in the literary theory of 'The Intentional Fallacy'. The question is whether this ebook is literature to which that theory is relevant or something else. There has always been a grey area between spoofs, satires, pastiches, lampoons and literature itself. We can factor in what the ebook's perpetrator says on his own blog (links above). Meanwhile, I can only agree with Stephen T to some extent above about the choice of the name Lamblake Heinz and, in hindsight, its apparent danger of perceptions diminishing that aforementioned insulation of 'grey area' between literature and something seen to be not literature. As does some of the marginally perceptible 'non-story' content I only saw after receiving the ebook. Always a danger with such things, I guess. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.8.26.134 |
But Des, you say above that it encapsulates the motive! | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.140.213.21 |
As to motive seen through the selective prism of 'The Cream-Jest of Unset Custard' (2008), and presumably the central motive behind the first ebook, and here are two out of context quotes (note: out of context): "...for they were simple horror story background characters and took everything too seriously." and "They selected some great music and danced until morning, like adults, like people without psychological problems." - Ie 'like people' who had just had a birthday party for Cthulhu! As I say, for me not the best example of RH fiction. But, for me, fiction literature as well as being a spoof and satire. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.140.213.21 |
I was composing the above before reading your Single line comment about motive, Ramsey, but I think it covers the point. I recommend reading the rest of THE TRUTH SPINNER for further examples of Rhys's style of art form with many silly names like Lamblake Heinz etc etc.and no doubt moreTuckerisations. | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 212.219.233.223 |
I have lots of 'problems' with horror, both the genre and the real feeling. These 'problems' are aesthetic, psychological, political and philosophical. And yet... there's something about horror that won't let me go. I've been trying to turn my back on the genre for 20 years. But every time I turn around it's still there, somewhere, looking at me... Even when it doesn't call itself 'horror'. I've just started reading Georges Bataille's L'Abbe C and I'm finding it very disturbing. And also weirdly enthralling. | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 212.219.233.223 |
> I suspect that few people are genuinely upset by anything I say or do. I imagine they are more likely to be tactically upset, which is quite a different matter. Yes, I do believe there is a big difference between offending someone's soul ("I never really loved you") and offending someone's ego ("Your writing isn't very good.") I'm not in love with any of you; and none of you are in love with me. Therefore we only offend each other's egos. Which isn't very important, really. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.8.26.134 |
Yes, but there's also the likes of "Your writing isn't very good. I haven't read much of it and can't say what I've read" or even "Your writing isn't very good and I don't need to read it to know that" - attitudes I've certainly encountered. | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 212.219.233.223 |
Well, it's best to ignore comments like that. Or just tell the person who made the comment where to get off. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.8.26.134 |
Attitudes, not comments. | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 212.219.233.223 |
Trying to change attitudes for the better is the ongoing battle we are all engaged in every day. There's no quick 'solution' to attitudes we dislike. But we fight on regardless. That fight is our 'work'. God, I sound like one of those Facebook wisdom boxes... | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.140.213.21 |
One wisdom box in the hand is worth two in the escritoire. God Knows I have had my serious dust-ups with Rhys over the years (some linkable if anyone is interested) but many congratulations, Rhys, on the tasty-looking book contracts you've signed, just announced on Facebook. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.140.213.21 |
btw I intend to conduct a further real-time exegesis on the so-called Horror works of Rhys Hughes published by normally Horror-publishing publishers - and see what can be discovered germane to this thread's issue. I already have a few things up my sleeve. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.8.16.192 |
Well, my work is writing tales that engage my imagination, in the hope that it's worthy of the field that does. "...the so-called Horror works of Rhys Hughes published by normally Horror-publishing publishers..." But are they published as horror? Are there publishers who publish exclusively horror? Forgive my ignorance! | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.140.213.21 |
Well, one was the Brothel Creepr (Gray Friar Press) which I recall was published as Horror by a normally Horror publishing publisher (not read that one yet but intend to do so). Pendragon Press did one called The Molehills of Madness, I recall. And Screaming DReams (that published The Cream-Jest of the Unset Custard) and Atomic Fez, I recall, and others, but not always marketed as Horror. Rhys also had a story in that Horror charity book (Never Again). But I don't like genres, like you by the sound of it, Ramsey. I'm still trying to get Rhys to read your 'Grin of the Dark'! I think Rhys is more of a Horror writer than he thinks, or hopes! | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.140.213.21 |
And, oh yes, I think PS Publishing has does a Rhys book. I don't know who the publishers are Rhys has just signed up to, mentioned above. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.140.213.21 |
The Rhys wiki gives a lot of info on his mind-boggling bibliography: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhys_Hughes | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.8.16.192 |
PS certainly isn't exclusively horror, Des! Very much not! | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.140.213.21 |
Yes, I know that, thanks, Ramsey. But I think if you took a cross- section of all the publishers that have published Rhys for the last twenty years a high proportion of their combined output is Horror marketed or appreciated by Horror genre readers. i intend to review some of it to see if I can find earlier signs of the Horror Genre versus Rhys Hughes subtext as I did with The Cream-jest of unset Custard, I.e. as my twilight academic contribution to literary exegesis. | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 212.219.233.223 |
> I'm still trying to get Rhys to read your 'Grin of the Dark'! You and Gary Fry have been trying for years, Des! As it happens it's my next-but-one book. I finally moved it to the top of my reading list... I briefly skimmed the first few pages and yes, they are good and bode well for the rest. I'll have to read the whole thing before concluding anything, obviously. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 129.11.76.216 |
Hurrah! It's about fucking time. | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 212.219.233.223 |
It takes me a long time to get round to reading books, Gary. This one jumped nearly 600 places to get to the top. And yes, that's your doing... One of my saving graces: my critical judgments are utterly independent. I'm not a gunky fibbon. Joel (above) proved he isn't, never was, never shall be a gunky fibbon. You and Des aren't gunky fibbons. But gunky fibbons are everywhere in the writing world and we must beware of them. http://rhysaurusrex.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/gunky-fibbon.html | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.8.24.0 |
Nor I! I still recall the American writer whose work I admired but who struck me as a shit in person. Soon after we met our publisher sent me an ARC of his new novel in the hope of a blurb. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
To this day, Ezra Pound is attacked and avoided critically like the plague, because of his notorious political stances.... | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 2.24.18.45 |
Not over here, Craig! Pound's literary originality is well respected by many British critics who abhor his politics. Among poetic modernists one rarely gets through an essay without seeing his name. I don't think a writer should be ignored because his or her political stance or personality is objectionable, but I also don't think these issues should necessarily be ignored when the work is discussed – since the work may well have both personal and political dimensions. Where one has a personal issue with a writer it's clearly wrong to give that expression in spurious denunciations of his or her work – but silence on the subject of said work may be excusable. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 2.103.100.222 |
Funny, Martin Amis gets a lot of negative commentary on the basis of his political views (anti-Islamism [NOT anti-Islam], even from those who've never read his work. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
This connects interestingly with the Dennis Wheatley letter that Ramsey has posted today. I think it's possible (on the basis of some of his later stories) that Robert Aickman took quite a similar, if more muted, political stance to Wheatley in the former's later years – but whereas Wheatley is a crude and stupid writer, Aickman is an exceptionally good one. How political beliefs affect writing isn't dictated only by the substance of those beliefs. Though I do think that Aickman's social satires are perhaps the weakest of his stories. But they are still quite good, and sit alongside brilliant stories with a different thematic weight. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.8.20.195 |
I'd say you're right, Joel. For instance, Robert deeply distrusted the unions, and he admired Oswald Mosley as an orator. He also thought Leni Reifenstahl was unfairly treated (which I might, though to a lesser extent). | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
Ezra Pound can't but be mentioned, since he is such a giant figure in 20th Century literature. But he's rarely studied. And forget his political writings: his book that seems (?—reports would indicate) to explain/predict our current housing crisis, and as a government-based problem, is hopelessly OOP.... Isn't Russell Kirk's another one who's often gunky fibboned? | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
Kirk's sentimental, reactionary Christian pietism makes his work annoying – that's not what Rhys is talking about, I think. Wanting to strangle a book because of what it contains is not the same as rejecting it because of what, externally, you know about its author. When Kirk says in print that Blackwood's stories "fail" because they are not Christian he is displaying a painful lack of literary judgement – not because he is a Christian, but because he is a dimwit. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.66.23.11 |
if the rumours about JM Barrie and his relationship with the boys who inspired Peter Pan or Lewis Carroll and his relationship with Alice Lovell were ever proven to be true, would the stories still be as loved as they are now? | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
I'd agree, Joel, but just because I found what little I've read of Kirk to be somewhat tedious. I was never inspired to go on to read more.... Weber—rumors about Anne Perry, aren't. Does that bother anyone? | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.167.150.69 |
who's Anne Perry? | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
What, you never saw Peter Jackson's (best!) film, Heavenly Creatures?... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_Perry | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.66.23.11 |
Seen the film. Loved the film. The charcter name hadn't stuck. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
She actually changed her name from Juliet Hulme to "Anne Perry" for her many many books.... |