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Carole Johnstone (Carolej)
Username: Carolej

Registered: 04-2010
Posted From: 94.15.145.194
Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2012 - 10:10 pm:   

Sorry to barge straight back in with either, but I wondered if anyone else had experienced this...

I recently had a response from an agent re. a manuscript, suggesting that while he loved the idea and 'its voice', could I rework it, so that it was 'less genre and more literary'? (which would be less a rework than an entirely new book).

I get this response all the time. Even if I did have that kind of a novel in me, (and I'm not sure I do), I am a horror writer.

It seems to me that neither writers nor readers are concerned about genre - or the apparent need for a lack of it - while agents and big publishers (and I only pitch to those who say they will accept genre work) are obsessed with getting rid, especially when it comes to horror.

I wonder how many really good books (and I'm not saying mine is!) never see the light of day for that reason? Or how many writers give in and write the kind of 'literary' book that someone else wants them to instead? I must admit, I'm getting tempted to try.

Does anyone have any opinions/experience of genre vs literary bias, or is it just me?
P.S. Very sorry for the lengthy, whingey post! Feel free to ignore it!
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 217.44.184.29
Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2012 - 10:22 pm:   

No - it's interesting. I personally STRIVE to be 'literary' rather than 'just' horror, but can never quite leave the old horror world/atmosphere behind. I've never subbed to many places but I'm sure my work just manages to sneak in to the places that do accept it. My latest short for instance was to a horror antho, but really I do not think there was any horror in it. :-(
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Carole Johnstone (Carolej)
Username: Carolej

Registered: 04-2010
Posted From: 94.15.145.194
Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2012 - 10:58 pm:   

I am sure that's not true, Tony! What's the antho?

And I get your point. I too always imagined that you could have both - and thought that I did. But it seems to me that when they say they want literary, what they mean is they want all the horror beaten out of it. All the reworks that have been suggested to me leave very little room for a horror element at all!
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 217.44.184.29
Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2012 - 11:13 pm:   

Thing is Carole, I think it's a different matter when it comes to the ghostly - the supernatural seems to be growing in popularity. There's at least one spooky play on the beeb every week.
It's Des Lewis's Classical music antho. I like my story in it but in retrospect it just 'feels' creepy in a couple of places. Maybe it was enough!
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Carole Johnstone (Carolej)
Username: Carolej

Registered: 04-2010
Posted From: 94.15.145.194
Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2012 - 11:42 pm:   

I don't know. I'd still consider a supernatural story to be horror, no matter how subtle that horror is.

What I mean is someone saying, well yes alright, I like the idea of a ghost story, but does there really have to be a ghost in it?

I've read loads of reviews for The Age of Miracles, along the lines of "...it is a delicate and emotionally sophisticated coming-of-age tale – shame about the clunky sci-fi contrivances." But it is sci-fi! That's what makes it what it is.

(Congrats on the antho - I've been looking forward to that one!)
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 217.44.184.29
Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2012 - 08:32 am:   

Yes, and if it's a ghost story it's sort of brushed aside, like it's shameful.
It's not just restricted to literature. Say you are interested in ghosts and you're instantly an idiot.
Thanks for the congrats! I hope it's good, too!

As an aside, I know a very brainy middle aged poet woman who likes Philip K Dick. The audiences are more open minded than the publishers, I think.
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Jonathan (Jonathan)
Username: Jonathan

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.2.114.230
Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2012 - 09:09 am:   

Carole, drop me a line and I can point you in the direction of the genre friendly literary agents. I have a list: jonathan[dot]oliver[at]rebellion.co.uk[NO SPAM]

Change/remove the obvious bits.


It's true that horror tends to be a bit of a hard sell in at the moment and most of the recent horror hits (like the books of Adam Nevill) don't have the label horror anywhere on them. That's not to say, however, that some publishers aren't considering darker works.

Anyway, drop me a line and we'll chat further.
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 82.18.174.156
Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2012 - 09:34 am:   

The anti-genre mindset has always been there, in my experience. It's all part of the "we're not children anymore" defence of adulthood stance that prevails in society.

I well remember my English teacher back in First Year imploring us to use our imaginations one minute, when writing compositions, and criticising anything with a fantastical element, as mine always did, as "silly" and "an insult to the intelligence" the next!

I don't give a fuck if they think I never grew up! That's how I like the world just fine and dandy.
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 217.37.199.45
Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2012 - 01:21 pm:   

Maybe it's just that horror is out of favour among commercial publishers. I don't think you'd get that reaction with a crime novel. If anything it might be the other way round, with an agent or publisher advising you that a 'literary' novel would stand a better chance if reworked as a crime novel.

When horror was more popular, of course, authors had a different problem. A very talented horror author (whose novels are well known) was continually told by his publisher in the 1990s that if he didn't make with the entrails, he was failing to reach the 'horror reader'. The split-off of the 'slipstream' and 'traditionalist' wings of the small press reflect that commercial narrowing of the genre. No entrails, no contract.
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Carole Johnstone (Carolej)
Username: Carolej

Registered: 04-2010
Posted From: 94.15.145.194
Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2012 - 07:58 pm:   

I agree with everything you said, Stevie, but I'll be the first to admit that I find myself getting defensive about writing horror even before there's any need to.

I guess Joel's is the most obvious explanation; it certainly makes sense. I'd been expecting horror to be a hard sell, but not quite this hard. Or maybe citing genre-issues is just a kinder method of rejection than "please hawk your shitty book elsewhere, lady!"

Which, I guess, makes my earlier question even more valid. As a writer, do you write the book that you want to, or the book that has a better chance of selling? I love writing horror more than I love writing anything else. But I love writing A LOT more than I love my day job. Maybe the compromise isn't so great?

(And thank you so much, Jonathan. I'd love that list! Will email )
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 99.126.164.88
Posted on Thursday, June 28, 2012 - 03:42 am:   

One thing, Carole, though I'm sure you already know this:

Don't ever rewrite something for someone else (sans pay), especially an agent or someone like that who thinks they might like something better if it were X. It costs this agent nothing to spout this and make you slave again to see if you can please him/her, when chances are great you won't. I've known of one novel writer who spent years rewriting something to please a book publisher she was trying to land; all to no avail... rather, to tears and lost time.

In this one respect, you must always be writing what you want. If need be, make yourself want to write something you might not normally, though do make sure you're really wanting to do it. But never never never make yourself write/rewrite anything you don't naturally want to (a) solely to please a gatekeeper and/or (b) sans pay. You'll rue the day....
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Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey)
Username: Ramsey

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 92.8.29.149
Posted on Thursday, June 28, 2012 - 03:23 pm:   

"I'll be the first to admit that I find myself getting defensive about writing horror even before there's any need to."

Many of us got through that. I did, and declared in the introduction to The Height of the Scream that I no longer would. I haven't since, I hope!
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Carole Johnstone (Carolej)
Username: Carolej

Registered: 04-2010
Posted From: 94.0.72.39
Posted on Thursday, June 28, 2012 - 10:14 pm:   

Although to be fair, Ramsey, you could mount a far more convincing defence than I could!

Thanks for the advice, Craig. I guess it's a pretty fine line, but I'll definitely bear what you've said in mind next time I have a wobble!

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