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Mbfg (Mbfg)
Username: Mbfg

Registered: 09-2010
Posted From: 80.5.8.49
Posted on Saturday, December 15, 2012 - 02:27 am:   

There is no end to the horror of the human condition. Today little children, the same age as my grandson, were apparently gunned down by yet another tortured, brutalised, demon-riven madman. We could launch into yet another gun crime debate, but right now I am trying to grasp the fact that there is terrible darkness between the pools of light most of us live in. My gut wants everlasting hell visited on the soul of the person who would do this, but my head knows that it isn't that simple. And just how do you cope with the loss of a child in such circumstances?

Terry
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 99.126.164.88
Posted on Saturday, December 15, 2012 - 05:01 am:   

The mind that commits these acts, however anyone chooses to describe it, you can at least say this: it extinguishes, as far as anything resembling what we know as human. And then, this inhuman mind commands the machine-body to wreak havoc on anything in its path. Like a giant boulder rushing down a mountain, straight into a crowd... whoever's in its way is crushed mercilessly by the mindless force. To me, there's no adequate answers or understanding in such circumstances, just terror, and grief.

"Life shows no mercy"--The Stranglers
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Lincoln (Lincoln_brown)
Username: Lincoln_brown

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 121.219.108.247
Posted on Saturday, December 15, 2012 - 06:48 am:   

Not sure if it's age, or the fact that we have a seven year old, but I spent only a few seconds feeling anger and hate. Mostly I thought of those kids, and now, their parents.
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Weber (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.144.33.159
Posted on Saturday, December 15, 2012 - 11:17 am:   

I think the most succinct and accurate (IMHO) thing I've seen so far on the subject is this - which sums up my feelings almost precisely

Guns don't kill people, cunts kill people. But it's much harder for the cunts to kill people if you ban the fucking guns. FUCK.
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Carolinec (Carolinec)
Username: Carolinec

Registered: 06-2009
Posted From: 92.232.244.38
Posted on Saturday, December 15, 2012 - 11:15 pm:   

There are no words ...
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 217.42.49.73
Posted on Monday, December 17, 2012 - 04:04 pm:   

I have to say, I was sad about this then saw a picture of the gunman, and read that he was 'needy and always trying to fit in', and just started crying. His mother was a survivalist gun nut, and his parents were divorced. He has aspergers and so will like his sense of 'order'. I think this poor boy was doomed from the start. I just wish ... I could go back in time and help him.
I actually looked on Facebook for the subject 'school shooters' and found a little page liked by twelve people. I looked into who liked this page and found a photograph of a boy who looked exactly like my loner son. He had no friends and for his 'likes' liked all these suicide and death and school shooter kids (the famous ones, as well as this new one, Lanza.). My son has mild autism and finds it very hard to make friends. I was like that at school myself. At school I felt like the most repugnant lowly oaf and hated almost every last one of them, but myself even more. I want people to reach out to the odd people in their schools and not give up, whatever the pressure from peers to cling to the 'in' crowd. School is perhaps not the best place to bring up kids who are unhappy, carry a lot of baggage.
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 217.42.49.73
Posted on Monday, December 17, 2012 - 04:20 pm:   

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/adam-lanza---loner-with-poor-social-skills--160755976.h tml
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 99.126.164.88
Posted on Tuesday, December 18, 2012 - 05:34 am:   

Good God. In looking up other mass murders, I came across this particularly grotesque one, from 1927, that I frankly never heard of before (though the name of the murderer rings a bell). This method and motives read like a Hammett villain's....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster
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Hubert (Hubert)
Username: Hubert

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 193.191.137.205
Posted on Tuesday, December 18, 2012 - 01:44 pm:   

Of this I'm sure: it will hapen again.
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Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey)
Username: Ramsey

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 92.8.28.72
Posted on Tuesday, December 18, 2012 - 05:53 pm:   

I think none of what we hear about Lanza is an excuse for what he chose to do. Indeed, I think we're hearing far too much about him in the media compared to his victims. He's gaining celebrity status, even if posthumously, at their expense. My sympathies are with them and their families.
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 217.42.49.73
Posted on Tuesday, December 18, 2012 - 07:01 pm:   

It's perhaps because we can not move forward by studying victims but rather the perpetrators of the killings, what caused them to do what they did, why were they shaped so differently to the rest of us. I do not think these killers were happy or in control of themselves anymore. I've been out of my mind with anguish a few times and I can vouch that reality suffers as a result. The guns kill, but if the same type of person is killing then that can be addressed.
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 217.42.49.73
Posted on Tuesday, December 18, 2012 - 07:10 pm:   

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4701298/Im-scared-of-my-sons-blind-rag e.html
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.29.107.160
Posted on Tuesday, December 18, 2012 - 08:12 pm:   

>>>I've been out of my mind with anguish a few times and I can vouch that reality suffers as a result

I think quite a few people who frequent this board already know that, Tony, and have probably experienced similar (myself included). It's not a revelation to claim that killers emerge from an uneasy combination of a certain mind in a certain culture. The point of this thread, surely, is that the victims should take priority in terms of public attention. Nobody here (I think) would ever suggest that the killer didn't have deeply contextual and psychological reasons for acting the way he did, but that isn't the point, is it? Just look at the children who are dead.
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Huw (Huw)
Username: Huw

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 111.243.148.154
Posted on Tuesday, December 18, 2012 - 09:19 pm:   

I agree with Ramsey. I feel sympathy with the victims, not the murderer. He may have had mental problems (we don't know yet), but there is no excuse for murdering over two dozen innocent people, twenty of them under the age of ten.

I had to deal with a very distressing neuropsychiatric condition as a child and teenager, and I had no treatment because nobody knew much about it back then (it was considered very rare and I was only diagnosed later, as an adult - I still struggle with it). I was also painfully shy, extremely sensitive and was considered somewhat odd, at least by some. I kept to myself a lot of the time. Nevertheless, I never felt the urge to harm anyone because of it. Millions of people can be classed as 'loners' or 'socially awkward' but that doesn't make them go out and kill people. I think good parenting is essential (thankfully I had that).

I think much tighter gun control is absolutely essential. Also, people need to pay attention to those around them - their family members, friends, peers - and be on the look-out for behavioural changes. Surely many of these tragic events could have been prevented.
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Huw (Huw)
Username: Huw

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 111.243.148.154
Posted on Tuesday, December 18, 2012 - 09:23 pm:   

Well said, Gary. (Sorry, only noticed your post after I'd sent mine.)
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Hubert (Hubert)
Username: Hubert

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 178.116.60.39
Posted on Wednesday, December 19, 2012 - 10:56 am:   

I was also painfully shy, extremely sensitive and was considered somewhat odd, at least by some. I kept to myself a lot of the time.

Join the club, Huw. I was considered extremely odd and to this day struggle to fit in. Anywhere.

I don't think new weapon laws would change much. The weapons are there, so what would they do? Confiscate them?
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 217.37.199.45
Posted on Wednesday, December 19, 2012 - 02:12 pm:   

Perhaps explaining the brutality of an individual is more a matter for psychologists than for online lay observers. But I'm always wary of the argument that, in John Major's words, "we should condemn more and understand less". Partly because that takes for granted an implicit theory of original sin: there's nothing to understand because we all want to commit hideous crimes, it's just that most of us know it is wrong. So it's a moral issue rather than a psychological and sociological one.

But that takes us away from a modern perspective altogether, restoring us to a world in which there is a natural moral order. If any attempt to draw rational lines between causes and effects is providing evil with an "excuse", then reason itself is immoral.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.29.107.160
Posted on Wednesday, December 19, 2012 - 03:43 pm:   

Why should it be a choice between condemning and understanding? Why not both? I don't see how they are opposites.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.29.107.160
Posted on Wednesday, December 19, 2012 - 03:49 pm:   

I think many people mistake "attempts to understand" with "sympathising with". That usually results in a hot-headed muddle.
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Hubert (Hubert)
Username: Hubert

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 178.116.60.39
Posted on Wednesday, December 19, 2012 - 04:18 pm:   

While I can understand a lot, one thing I do not get is why people like our friend invariably kill themselves after such a spree. They're no longer there to enjoy the outcome of their actions, are they? Is the fear of retribution?
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 99.126.164.88
Posted on Wednesday, December 19, 2012 - 05:19 pm:   

I hate to be moon-landing conspiratorial, Hubert, but I wonder this myself so often, that I sometimes suspect maybe they are shot by the police, but for some reason we're told they took their own lives.... Holmes (Aurora) and Dekraii (Seal Beach), for example, were apprehended in public places where they gave up; Harris/Klebold and now Lanza were in sealed-off areas, and found dead from their own hands.

Andrew Kehoe's chilling final message, left on a wooden sign at his booby-trapped home, was: "Criminals are made, not born."
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.29.107.160
Posted on Wednesday, December 19, 2012 - 05:26 pm:   

Do we think people kill classrooms full of children to "enjoy the outcomes of their actions"?

I don't know what it is, but I'd imagine that, in killers' minds, such an act is the ultimate offence against a society from which one is excluded (by either "pecking order" mores or personal incapacity). But it's a truly terrible one, crossing a line beyond which is utter blackness. Not being able to live with yourself after that is surely more complex and profound than simply fearing retribution.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.29.107.160
Posted on Wednesday, December 19, 2012 - 05:33 pm:   

In short, it's a non-negotiable offence against the human condition.
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 99.126.164.88
Posted on Wednesday, December 19, 2012 - 05:48 pm:   

But to have someone like that lingering around, when small children are slaughtered... it's like an open, festering wound to the community... and is there a lawyer on Earth, even the slimiest, who'd want to defend this guy? No, better to end it all with a bullet to the brain, and say he did it himself—before he ever gets a chance to put his hands up—even if he does, whoops, didn't see that....

We've lost something, despite all we've gained, by turning the world over to Freud. Human evil becomes harder to comprehend. It's easier to comprehend human evil in, say, Hammett: people are sometimes (whether they flipped to become it or are born it) just rotten to the core. Explanations superfluous. Sad and incomprehensible, but only as an act of nature can sometimes be sad and incomprehensible.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.29.107.160
Posted on Wednesday, December 19, 2012 - 06:34 pm:   

As someone said recently, motivation is pretty shagged out as a legitimate concept. But I think that's because we tend to seek explanations inside the head of perps, and not in the interface between the person and his/her social circumstances. And that involves a rich profusion of variables, whose net result is far from the sum of its parts. Wasn't it F Scott Fitzgerald who said that hot weather can prompt one to kill? He didn't mean that literally, in case anyone thinks that.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.29.107.160
Posted on Wednesday, December 19, 2012 - 06:40 pm:   

What we lost when we turned to Freud was an appreciation of context. Freud is a 'push' theorest - meaning, all motivation comes from intra-psychic events. What we need is more appreciation of 'pull' psychology - how events from outside interact with the inner world and produce certain acts.
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Weber (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 217.212.231.41
Posted on Wednesday, December 19, 2012 - 07:38 pm:   

I don't know about Fitzgerald writing about hot weather causing violence but there's certainly a bradbury story which expounds that theory - touched with fire.
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Huw (Huw)
Username: Huw

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 106.64.196.195
Posted on Wednesday, December 19, 2012 - 07:41 pm:   

Yes, I agree, Gary. It's not merely a matter of psychology - I think any answers will need to look into the sociological interplay as well as the individual's mental and/or neurological state. I also agree that it's wrong to assume that condemnation excludes a desire to understand.
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Hubert (Hubert)
Username: Hubert

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 178.116.60.39
Posted on Wednesday, December 19, 2012 - 07:42 pm:   

Wasn't it F Scott Fitzgerald who said that hot weather can prompt one to kill? He didn't mean that literally, in case anyone thinks that.

The two elderly antiheroes in Bradbury's "Touched with Fire" certainly found out the truth about that. (Much to their own dismay.)
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Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey)
Username: Ramsey

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 92.8.17.46
Posted on Wednesday, December 19, 2012 - 10:39 pm:   

Andrew Kehoe's chilling final message, left on a wooden sign at his booby-trapped home, was: "Criminals are made, not born."

Could we interpret this as "It's your fault, not mine"? And need we believe it?
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 2.24.1.250
Posted on Thursday, December 20, 2012 - 12:57 am:   

We need to believe the literal truth of his statement, yes, but not the implication you suggest. To say that people kill because they are killers – a favourite 'explanation' of politicians and journalists – is very much like saying that people die because they are corpses. Margaret Thatcher is (or was) fond of saying "If someone steals it's because he's a thief" – making the crime its own cause. Such an 'explanation' is a crime against logic.
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 99.126.164.88
Posted on Thursday, December 20, 2012 - 05:26 am:   

Kehoe's reasons for killing were (from what I read) his feelings of being wronged by his community—Kehoe might just be the world's first classic comic-book supervillain, one who's evil plan succeeded. I think he was justifying his actions with his last statement... but I also think the "explanations" wouldn't reveal anything beyond some comic-book level motivations.
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 2.24.14.55
Posted on Thursday, December 20, 2012 - 09:03 am:   

The banality of such delusions doesn't make the process of their development any less worth analysing. Studies of mass murder in the context of war crimes and genocide would reveal similarly infantile delusions, albeit ones generated by political leaders and driven by social media. We will see a lot more of mass murder, both committed by loners and committed by groups or even communities, and saying 'they were just killers' will never shed any light on it. Nor is clarity about the process a form of excuse or forgiving. It is just an objective light on the chains of causes and effects.
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 2.24.14.55
Posted on Thursday, December 20, 2012 - 09:05 am:   

I should add that many such studies do exist, of course – hence Hannah Arendt's phrase "the banality of evil".
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Mbfg (Mbfg)
Username: Mbfg

Registered: 09-2010
Posted From: 90.199.246.254
Posted on Sunday, December 23, 2012 - 09:02 pm:   

Is the only way to stop a bad man with a gun really a good man with a gun? Wasn't it good men with guns who mistakenly shot a good Brazilian man (who was without a gun) on a London Underground train a few years ago, thinking he was a bad man with a bomb? Those nice folk in the NRA sure have a way with words and wasn't there such compassion shown by their spokesman as he blamed everything and everyone for the horror of the other Friday, except, of course, someone wielding that sacred and holy relic of right wing America - a gun.
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 2.24.18.14
Posted on Sunday, December 23, 2012 - 10:17 pm:   

The killers of Jean-Charles de Menendez shot him in the head eight times as they held him stretched out on the floor. They did not think he was carrying a bomb, as there was no bulge in his light cotton jacket. They later claimed he'd been wearing a heavy coat, but that was a lie. They also claimed he vaulted over the ticket barrier, but that was a lie too. It's clear that they had planned a public killing as a warning to potential terrorists, and who they killed didn't matter much.

The British police are in the habit of executing suspects, sometimes in public and sometimes not. I'm sure that, if in 'honest truth' mode, a chief of police would say that without these regular executions our cities would be on fire. But there's no legal basis for these killings and no democratic process in the decisions. For every one that becomes public knowledge, many more are disguised as shoot-outs, suicides etc. About a hundred people, three-quarters of them black men, 'commit suicide' or 'have accidents' in police custody each year. No doubt if these deaths didn't happen our cities would be on fire. But to an ignorant civilian like me, it's hard to explain how you create a less violent culture by killing people all the time.
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Paul_finch (Paul_finch)
Username: Paul_finch

Registered: 11-2009
Posted From: 92.5.33.216
Posted on Sunday, December 23, 2012 - 11:14 pm:   

Do you really believe that, Joel?

That the British police are 'in the habit' of executing suspects?
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 2.24.28.77
Posted on Monday, December 24, 2012 - 12:20 am:   

Paul, sorry, I don't mean that routine suspects for 'everyday' offences are being killed for no apparent reason. It's rather that the killing of suspects suspected of being either gangsters or terrorists has become too distinctive to be explained as a series of mistakes. These killings mimic the 'style' of the killings carried out by gangsters and terrorists, and these seems little doubt that they are carried out with an audience in mind. The killing of Mark Duggan, which sparked the Tottenham riot last year, is a case in point. The police claimed Duggan had fired at them from a cab, but according to eyewitness accounts Duggan was unarmed when the police pulled him from a cab, pinned him to the ground and decapitated him with a sub-machine gun. Duggan was suspected of being a gang member, and it was a gang-style execution. Once Duggan was on the ground with his hands empty, there was no reason why they could not have arrested him if they had good reason to do so. Likewise Jean-Charles de Menendez: they could see he was unarmed and there was no bomb... so why did they shoot him repeatedly in the head? There's a pattern to these killings that suggests an 'execution' approach. And what are we to make of the death of David Emmanuel, aka club DJ Smiley Culture? The police claim that he stabbed himself with a kitchen knife while under arrest in his own home, which they were searching for drugs. I'm sorry, nobody believes that. If you arrest someone on suspicion of dealing drugs, you don't then let him wander around the house and pick up a weapon.
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Paul_finch (Paul_finch)
Username: Paul_finch

Registered: 11-2009
Posted From: 92.5.37.199
Posted on Monday, December 24, 2012 - 01:18 am:   

I still think it's an exaggeration. No-one would deny that the police can and do kill people. There are ruthless individuals and ruthless groups within every organisation. But to say it's 'a habit', suggesting that it's going on very widely, with more than a few officers colluding, is incorrect IMO.

The security services found it impossible to suppress the shoot to kill policy in Northern Ireland. So the idea that it is going on across the board on the mainland, with no-one trying to expose it, stretches credulity IMO.

Again, I don't deny there are bad eggs in the police who will commit extreme crimes under cover of their uniform (though that's not something I ever encountered during my service) but in societies like ours, where we have an investigative press, crusading lawyers etc, it's not something you can do easily and expect to get away with it.
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 2.24.28.120
Posted on Monday, December 24, 2012 - 01:18 pm:   

Thanks Paul. You would know better than I would. But I still think that specifically the London police force appears to be unofficially using execution as a tactic to discourage gangsters and terrorists – probably no wider than that in terms of either geography or suspect type. If so, they are doing what police forces in a number of other major cities of the world do – famously Los Angeles and Melbourne. It may not be directed from the top, of course.
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 109.79.153.175
Posted on Tuesday, December 25, 2012 - 02:11 am:   

"The security services found it impossible to suppress the shoot to kill policy in Northern Ireland."

Not exactly true. They suppressed any credible official investigation for decades. And even today the recent revelations of the shocking levels of active collusion between the RUC, MI5 and loyalist paramilitaries has had few consequences for anyone involved. As long as you can delay things for a few decades, the human life span means that it's effectively suppressed forever.
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Mbfg (Mbfg)
Username: Mbfg

Registered: 09-2010
Posted From: 80.5.8.49
Posted on Wednesday, December 26, 2012 - 10:21 am:   

My comment about the shooting of Jean-Charles de Menendez was not borne of any belief in a conspiracy theory - although I can't deny that some very dirty work does go on - but the fact that a mistake with a gun is very bad mistake indeed, that innocent people will, inevitably get caught in the cross-fire. I was trying to point out just how utterly stupid the NRA spokesman's comment actually was.

On the other hand, I find it hard to drum up sympathy for any bastard who plants bombs and indiscriminantly kills innocent and guilty alike.

I guess that makes me a hypocrite!

Cheers
Terry
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 2.24.5.233
Posted on Thursday, December 27, 2012 - 02:21 am:   

I don't think there's any satisfactory alternative to trial by jury. If an unarmed suspect is killed it doesn't really work to say 'If he'd really been a terrorist it would have been right, but because he was innocent it was wrong'. Justice is a higher principle than revenge.

(Terry, that's a general comment, not a specific reaction to your statement.)
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David_lees (David_lees)
Username: David_lees

Registered: 12-2011
Posted From: 92.16.240.183
Posted on Saturday, January 26, 2013 - 01:39 pm:   

Stephen King has jumped in to the gun control debate and (to me at least) makes an awful lot of sense:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2013/jan/25/stephen-king-gun-control-essay-amazo n-nra

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