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Israel Regardie (Israel_regardie)
Username: Israel_regardie

Registered: 01-2015
Posted From: 80.202.172.137
Posted on Saturday, January 10, 2015 - 11:54 am:   

Having read Demons by daylight, and then Holes for Faces (plus various publications with short stories) I wondered why, or rather how, his style has changed.
I remember picking up Demons and at first being put off with the denseness of it. Then, slowly, I began to appreciate it and eventually love it.
When I later on read his newer work I felt a little let down...
Was it possibly a demand from the publisher?
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Lincoln (Lincoln_brown)
Username: Lincoln_brown

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 120.21.6.34
Posted on Sunday, January 11, 2015 - 12:04 am:   

Have you read anything in between those two collections, Israel? There's 40 odd years between them, so you couldn't really expect Ramsey's style to remain exactly the same.
Don't get me wrong, I also prefer his earlier stories, but that might be because they were what I read first. And, I just like stories set in the 70/80/90's.
I can highly, highly recommend reading the collections in order - I did it last year, and it was one of the most rewarding reading experiences I've ever had.
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Carolinec (Carolinec)
Username: Carolinec

Registered: 06-2009
Posted From: 92.232.244.250
Posted on Sunday, January 11, 2015 - 12:43 pm:   

Hi and welcome, Israel! Yes, I agree with Lincoln, it's best to read Ramsey's stories more or less in order. There's a very definite progression from his Lovecraft-inspired stories, through him finding his own unique voice, and then on from that (making it even more mature and unique in my opinion).

Personally, I'm more a fan of Ramsey's later stories. I don't think Ramsey has ever changed his style to fit the demands of a publisher - which is probably why he now seems to only get work published by indie publishers rather than the mass market ones. I think Ramsey is (rightly) proud of never having "sold out" to publisher demands and always doing his own thing.

My advice would be to try some more of the collections from intervening years - there's some amazing work there.
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Lincoln (Lincoln_brown)
Username: Lincoln_brown

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 101.172.42.162
Posted on Sunday, January 11, 2015 - 01:35 pm:   

Yes, welcome Israel! - sorry, forgot to do that in my post!
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Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey)
Username: Ramsey

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 78.145.83.133
Posted on Thursday, February 19, 2015 - 12:56 pm:   

Israel - no, the style evolved purely of itself, for better or worse, like its author.
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Israel Regardie (Israel_regardie)
Username: Israel_regardie

Registered: 01-2015
Posted From: 80.202.72.193
Posted on Saturday, March 14, 2015 - 07:13 pm:   

Ok, I stand corrected. Just saw some discrepancy between Demons by Daylight and Holes for Faces. But I jumped the gun, I agree it's more a progression than a regression.

However... I must admit, I ended up putting "Incarnate" back on the shelf after page 110 or so.
Is Campbell a better short story writer than novelist? (I know, I'm getting close to philistinism here). His short stories - in Demons - are master pieces. Pure sublime wonders.
But Incarnate... It just kept dragging on. The woman and the fake rape, the black man beaten to death and the cover-up, her job with MTV... It wasn’t a horror novel at all, but more like some faux romance novel that had no attention span.

I wanted a horror tale with a mysterious secret corporation who experimented with dreams, and all the patients returning to the asylum with spooks and scares. Or at least some element a la The Shining.
I kept thinking what Stephen King could have done with that plot. With precognition and all that.
But it was just a life time story of a woman with a midlife crisis.
Does it magically get better past page 110?

(I'm sure I'll get kicked out of there now. I mean why come here and talk sh*t? I still love Campbell, solely based on Demons... But I'm getting confused over his real position...) Sorry...
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 92.29.137.115
Posted on Monday, March 16, 2015 - 06:17 am:   

You read 110 pages and felt it was dragging on? Blimey, Stephen King has only just introduced his central character by that stage in most of his books. Try a bit harder, Israel. There are such riches to enjoy. Seriously.
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Matteus (Matteus)
Username: Matteus

Registered: 10-2014
Posted From: 93.35.16.205
Posted on Monday, March 16, 2015 - 10:38 am:   

“If you’re not enjoying something, you’re probably doing it too fast.”


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WQ2vXv-aq8
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Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey)
Username: Ramsey

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 78.150.130.182
Posted on Wednesday, March 18, 2015 - 08:48 am:   

Ah, if only a better writer had written my novel! I'd thought more happened by that point in it, but my senile memory must be letting me down. I fear I don't write about secret corporations much, and in general can be nothing but an increasingly tedious version of myself. Anyone who wants imitation Steve King will find many writers worthier of their cash.
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Carolinec (Carolinec)
Username: Carolinec

Registered: 06-2009
Posted From: 92.239.61.211
Posted on Wednesday, March 18, 2015 - 12:27 pm:   

"Anyone who wants imitation Steve King will find many writers worthier of their cash."

I think that's the point here really. Ramsey's work, if I may say so without embarrassing you Ramsey, is quite unique - his voice is unique.

For me, there are some stories which really hit the mark and some which don't quite do it (for example, I couldn't finish The Darkest Part of the Woods though others rave about it). Whether you like a particular author's style is a very subjective personal matter. Also, I think it would be quite rare for a reader to enjoy absolutely *everything* a particular writer does. I can't think of any writer where I enjoy absolutely everything they've ever done.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 92.29.137.115
Posted on Thursday, March 19, 2015 - 07:16 am:   

In fear of offending, I think this thread hints at the problem with many modern readers' attitudes to challenging writers. They just can't be bothered with them. They simply want what they want, often a rehash of previously enjoyed material, like a warmed-over soufflé. If the work doesn't fit that template, they immediately assume it's because of the authors' shortcomings and not their own sedimented, impatient, unadventurous faculties.
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Matteus (Matteus)
Username: Matteus

Registered: 10-2014
Posted From: 93.47.117.57
Posted on Thursday, March 19, 2015 - 01:00 pm:   

I feel I have to quote again.

"On the question of being understandable - One does not only wish to be understood when one writes. One wishes just as surely not to be understood. It is not by any means necessarily an objection to a book when anyone finds it impossible to understand: perhaps that was part of the author's intention - he did not want to be understood by just "anybody". All the nobler spirits and tastes select their audience when they wish to communicate; and choosing that, one at the same time erects barriers against "the others". All the more subtle laws of any style have their origin at this point: they at the same time keep away, create distance, forbid "entrance", understanding, as said above - while they open the ears of those whose ears are related to ours."
Friedrich Nietzsche
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Israel Regardie (Israel_regardie)
Username: Israel_regardie

Registered: 01-2015
Posted From: 80.202.72.193
Posted on Friday, March 20, 2015 - 08:25 pm:   

"n fear of offending, I think this thread hints at the problem with many modern readers' attitudes to challenging writers. They just can't be bothered with them. They simply want what they want, often a rehash of previously enjoyed material, like a warmed-over soufflé. If the work doesn't fit that template, they immediately assume it's because of the authors' shortcomings and not their own sedimented, impatient, unadventurous faculties."

I have to object here. Really.
Though I might protest too much, it was not for lack for trying. Like I've mentioned: Demons by daylight threw me at first, but now is perhaps one of my most cherished books. (Then again, it has a lot of suppport: My love for old used paperbacks, the 70s feel of the cover and the yellow pages... god how I love that).
But I'm nothing if not a patient reader.
But as a person with a passion for literature (and a champion for the abolotion of the high brow/low brow barrier - a battle raging for the last decade)I also believe a writer needs to grab the reader and not just excuse himself/herself by saying "I'm quirky, a small collection of people will worship me". A reader should be able to be both deep and meaningful while telling the story in a way that make the reader unable to put the book down. (The former something King rarely does, except for the Bachman books).

I dont mean to be rude and another whiny nit-picky over-consumer.But I'm trying to grasp Incarnate. Trying to figure it out.
I'm sure it's just subjectivity. It didnt "grab me". But I wanted it to. Badly.
But when the moment came when I realized this was not the book I wanted to read, and I kept going, deciding to let the book tell me what it wanted, I still found it wanting. As if it's "position" was unclear. Which is fine, I suppose, even for a genre work, but I never saw the appeal of its quirkiness either...
Sorry... I guess.
I'll get "Dark Companions" and - surely - return to express my undying love for RC. If not, well, good riddance to bad rubbish! (Meaning me. I'm the rubbish.)

* Side note: I thoroughly enjoyed "The Rounds" in Holes for Faces. A perfect twist and perfect depiction of madness. Reminded me of Demons by Daylight
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 92.29.137.115
Posted on Saturday, March 21, 2015 - 11:30 am:   

Hi Israel. Sorry, I wasn't directing my comment wholly at you. It was just that the comment you made about wanting it to be like Stephen King reminded me of a lot of reviews I've read which seem to expect all chosen material to conform to pre-existing expectations, rather than letting new authors pull the reader away into his/her often idiosyncratic territory. Indeed, I'd say that this latter quality characterises most of Ramsey's work. As with any other writer, you either dig that or you don't. Personally, I think Incarnate is one of his weirdest works, a genuinely memorable experience. Ditto for a lot of his gear. It all rewards slow reading and patience, particularly the novels. In fact, I can't think of another writer for whom this is truer.

How about pushing on through the "unclear position" barrier and seeing what gives? If it's your first Campbell novel, it seems a little premature to be asking, "Is he a better short story writer than novelist?" My response to that is no, he's equally adept in both formats. But I do think the novels require more trust in the lengthier roads he's leading you along. The destination is always worth it. It's full of things which will live with you forever.
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Israel Regardie (Israel_regardie)
Username: Israel_regardie

Registered: 01-2015
Posted From: 90.149.244.180
Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2016 - 05:01 pm:   

I feel a desperate conscientious need to make ammends. Now some years later, I've matured, and must say that my love for Campbell is complete. Having read Dark Companions I am a fan for life. And re-reading Incarnate, I have no idea what I was thinking. Marverlous stuff. There ought to be more like this. Loads more.
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 2.218.184.163
Posted on Thursday, December 22, 2016 - 03:20 am:   

Hi, Israel. By God you must be a right age now. I was reading your books in the 1930s!!!!
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 143.53.245.86
Posted on Tuesday, January 03, 2017 - 05:20 pm:   

Hurrah, Israel!
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 143.53.245.86
Posted on Tuesday, January 03, 2017 - 05:21 pm:   

And there ARE loads more. I envy you so many first readings.
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.185.27.8
Posted on Thursday, June 08, 2017 - 09:15 pm:   

I have tried reading three of Ramsey's novels recently but could not manage. I think - and I'm sorry if this sounds harsh - his short fiction is his best stuff.
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 90.200.81.0
Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2017 - 05:35 am:   

Which three novels, Tony? I find him a master of both forms of writing. He is to horror what Philip K. Dick is to science fiction, imho. An acquired taste that becomes increasingly addictive the more one sups of it.
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.190.206.179
Posted on Tuesday, April 23, 2019 - 12:33 am:   

I now think it's impossible to say the books are better than the shorts. There are good and bad in both.

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