| Author | Message | ||
     Simon_b (Simon_b) Username: Simon_b Registered: 10-2008 Posted From: 86.24.165.182 |
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/21/20081029/tuk-goth-killer-wins-sentence-reduction-632 3e80.html This case revolted me at the outset. Now one of the shitheads responsible is getting time shaved off his sentence. Anyone else feel this is out of order? To put it mildly? | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
It's a fucking joke, to be honest. | ||
| Simon_b (Simon_b) Username: Simon_b Registered: 10-2008 Posted From: 86.24.165.182 |
There's nothing wrong with either of those two pieces of walking shit that a lamppost and nine feet of rope wouldn't put right. Sorry. My Old Testament side is in charge this morning. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Absurd. | ||
| Simon_b (Simon_b) Username: Simon_b Registered: 10-2008 Posted From: 86.24.165.182 |
There was a good piece from Joolz Denby on her MySpace blog a few months ago, on the first anniversary of the murder: http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=78122901&blogID= 423143241 A very good piece, both compassionate and angry. She even manages a little compassion for the killers. I wish I could manage that. | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 79.70.29.243 |
Once sentenced - it shouldn't be reduced. Terrible crime. | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 79.187.206.46 |
Just wait a decade and they'll be walking the streets. | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 79.187.206.46 |
Plenty more where they came from. In the cess pool of St.Helens, back in the early 90's, it was quite common for my friends, mostly goths and punks, to have the living shit kicked out of them for no other reason than the way they dressed. Nearly all of them were hospitalised at one time or another. Luckily I wasn't, but there were a few close calls. In fact there was a gang of kids riding round in cars looking for anyone who didn't conform to the Nazi mentality. One day they pulled a young lad off the street, shaved his head, used a screwdriver on his scalp, and 'accidentally' blinded him in one eye, and then threw him from the car whilst it was still moving. They were caught, given 12 years apiece, and were out in three years! Unfortunately, I believe this kind of mentality is endemic of Britain much more than other countries. | ||
| Simon_b (Simon_b) Username: Simon_b Registered: 10-2008 Posted From: 86.24.165.182 |
Christ alive, Frank, that's bad. I live in Swinton, not far away from St Helens at all. There are no shortage of incredibly vicious bastards out there. I cannot understand how, in a country where we're subject to more surveillance than almost any other and where our civil liberties are routinely being eroded almost daily in the name of 'protecting' us, at the same time we have this going on. Then again, they only killed a Goth; it's not like they were saying Jack Straw was talking nonsense. That's obviously a worse crime, because they apply anti-terrorist legislation to cases like THAT. I want to be clear. Despite my 'string 'em up' post the other day, I'm not an advocate of capital punishment. That was the anger and revulsion that this case triggered in me talking. Venting it is healthy, channelling it to a constructive goal is healthy, letting it dictate your actions isn't. Nor do I think that a draconian law and order mentality is the way forward- we've had a succession of Home Secretaries, Tory and NuLab, pushing that and it's not fixing these problems. We have to identify the root causes and address those. BUT, and this is the big BUT (much like my own) no-one put a gun to those kids' heads and made them beat a 17 year old girl to death for no other reason than that she was different. Ther's no 9 month reduction for Sophie Lancaster, or her family, her boyfriend or her friends. I can't comprehend the rationale behind reducing Ryan Herbert's sentence. At least Brendan Harris didn't get a reduction as well. There's that at least. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.244.67 |
I haven't seen any Draconian law and order mentality. When was this? I've seen politicians talking about getting tougher on crime. I haven't really seen much done about it. Not that you COULD do anything about it. It's too late now. Oops, better shut before Ramsey notices. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
The moment that the trade unions told every manual labourer he should have more, it was too late. When it proved to be untrue the angry father was born. Then the angry son. etc. Now it is culture, and won't be taken without a fight -to the death. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.108.9.51 |
Albie, you should charge youself rent. | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 79.187.206.46 |
Albie - I don't think the problem stems from the working class any more than it does the middle class. The people I mentioned in my last post turned out to be the well to do children of former Saints rugby players! | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 79.187.206.46 |
To clarify: I don't think the state of penury plays any part in the random and senseless violence prevalent in Britain. I think it sweeps right across the board. It has become a classless entity. | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 79.187.206.46 |
The violence of Britain is as much at home in the public schools (as Joel had rightly pointed out in a previous post), as it is the inner-cities/suburbs. Britain is so small compared to other countries that it is nigh on impossible to escape it's influence. You're as likely to get attacked walking down a village highstreet as you are in the city. In my opinion, you're even more at threat in the squalid backwaters of a provincial town than you are in the big cities. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
I've looked into this, and guess which group attracts the most exhaustive crime statistics, both by official police records and by the BCS...? | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.242.126 |
..."senseless violence prevalent in Britain. I think it sweeps right across the board. It has become a classless entity." Indeed. Good point, Fran. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
I think if you looked at who was in prison for acts of violence, you wouldn't find many with a good education. Or had owned their own home or held down a job for long. The occasional upper class criminal is always rolled out to distort the debate. Where is this evidence that a tendency for mindless violence is equally distributed? | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
Taking into account that police have been caught lying about crime statistics for the last decade. | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 79.70.39.55 |
'You're as likely to get attacked walking down a village highstreet as you are in the city. In my opinion, you're even more at threat in the squalid backwaters of a provincial town than you are in the big cities.' Er - no.Been in a small market town for 8 years -nothing, nada. And here you would know who did and get 'em back. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Yes, it seems to be true that those who suffer various forms of deprivation are more likely to commit violent crimes. For instance, Dobash (2002) reviewed 180 convicted male murderers in England and Scotland, and found: 61% had problems at school 39% were from rboken homes 24% came from families in which the father used violence against the mother 26% had been in care 25% had problems with alcohol 10% had learning disabilities 25% had mental health problems Mitchell (1990) found that 48% of 250 convicted murderers were in non-professional employment and 46% were unemployed. However, white collar crime is also linked to violence and murder, though of a different stripe: corporate negligence, etc. And stats for these are notoriously unreliable. I see above, Albie, you've offered a social cause for crime rates. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
Cause? No. I offered a signifier or three. No cause. All aspects of a criminal could be a symptom. Everything on your list could be a symptom of a core problem. It is easy to take one of those from the list and say it is the cause of the others. You could choose any one of them. Being poor does not mean you have to be nasty. Nobody has been poor in England for decades. Unless you mean my dig at the trade unions. I think they stirred up things. Worsened the jealousy. As did the anti-christians, who took away the crutch of divine hope. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
The reasons NOT to be nasty have always been an illusion. Our safety has always relied upon that illusion. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Well, those data I quoted were intended to support your claim above: "I think if you looked at who was in prison for acts of violence, you wouldn't find many with a good education." That seems to be true. BUT there very clearly exist a group of individuals who, quite literally, get away with murder. As Joel once said (I paraphrase), some do it eye to eye, others with a pen. Let's not get into the cause debate again. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.108.4.64 |
I was quoting from Woody Guthrie: Some will rob you with a six-gun, some with a fountain pen. | ||
| Mick Curtis (Mick) Username: Mick Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.159.141.80 |
"...Pretty Boy Floyd, an outlaw, Oklahoma knew him well". | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 212.74.96.200 |
Sentencing doesn't reflect the crime, does it? When you kill someone, it's for ever. Albie and Gary seem to be looking at the same coin from different sides. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.242.126 |
"The reasons NOT to be nasty have always been an illusion. Our safety has always relied upon that illusion." I spend a shocking amount of time thinking about this exact concept. I agree with you, Albie. And it fucking terrifies me. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
"Another myth in which he appears as Rigr (Rígr), a name probably derived from the Irish rí (“king”), makes Heimdall the father of mankind. He consorted with three women, from whom descend the three classes of men—serf (thrall), freeman (karl), and nobleman (jarl)." http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/231102/Germanic-religion-and-mythology /65406/Minor-Aesir Class seems to be an old subject. How old? 2 thousand years? Seems to transcend any modern causes we might blame. I wonder if John Prescot would be interested. | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 79.187.206.46 |
Ally - my mum's village: 17 murders in 11 years. Mostly drink related attacks which resulted in manslaughter. Average income of families in village: 27,000 pounds a year! I'm not trotting out the old class debate, in fact saying the complete opposite, it's beyond class n ow. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.244.67 |
17 murders in 11 years is small. And you can't delineate class with location. The stats stand up for themselves. Most crime and violence stems from the lower classes. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.244.67 |
I can assume, with conviction, that most of those drunken brawls that ended in death were lower class people. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 129.11.76.230 |
For once, I agree with Albie.  Frank's evidence is anecdotal and is not reflected by the stats that exist. However, I repeat, it depends how we define murder. Here we're talknig about a specific example of it: stuff at the street level. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 129.11.76.230 |
And white-collar crime lacks accurate stats, to say the least, so we need to hold on that issue. | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 79.187.206.46 |
Prof/Albie - I'm not disagreeing with either of you. I'm trying to make it clear that the violence we see today is not restricted to class. The mindless smashing up of the provincial town centre, for example, is not confined to one class. Of course the stats do reflect what Albie/Prof are talking about. I agree. BUT, I think the lack of an education is not the domain of the any one class. Education is a spurious thing. What classifies a bad education? Of course one's upbringing, one's lack of essential basics does contribute. The worrying thing is when you have the basics and a lot more to boot and still go out and perform brutal acts of 'thuggery'. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
Well we were talking about majorities. >>To clarify: I don't think the state of penury plays any part in the random and senseless violence prevalent in Britain. I think it sweeps right across the board. It has become a classless entity. Clearly it MUST play a part. Unless there is some other defining influence amongst the lower classes. Education? If we are talking scholastic then I would only agree slightly. Upbringing, yes. But then we are on the slippy slope again. What makes a bad parent? Another bad parent, and so on. Back through the mists of time to some point when that lineage was spoiled by some event we cannot know about? That still resonates today? | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
I think, if the past has spoiled a lineage, then that lineage should have the guts to throw off that attitude. As you or I would(?). The lives of the working classes has enhanced considerably since the work houses. If these families carry a grudge that has become a subconscious cultural weapon then they no longer deserve to wield it. But of course the dissatisfaction of the lower classes has become the pet charity of many people. They foster and goad it. The haters of the higher classes use the lower classes for their own agendas. The trade unions are sucha group. Not all of them, but the odd big voice with a grudge to settle. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
Of course most of those big voices have become rich and middle class now and sneer at the army they trained. | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 79.187.206.46 |
Albie - Penury then must be a relative cause because the lack of 'something' in Britain is not in my estimation a 'cause' which produces or contributes the violence. And surely the term 'lower class' should be swapped around with poorly educated. Question: what's a bad education in a rich country? | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
It's envy that helps to create the violence. And the envy is stoked by those from the lower classes who have a natural propensity towards learning and think they are doing their class a favour. Also, by those from the higher classes who are shocked that the lower classes do not wear ruffs. We are animals, deep down, and a lack of 'something' (education, money, involvment with society) returns you to that. Violence is the natural answer to all ape problems. One of the reasons I blame DNA. The other side is the accretive. If you add problems you can cause violence. Put them both together and you have the chav. But using the word 'cause' is blunt. Causes and symptoms weave and change places. If you didn't have any cash, it would not 'cause' YOU to act violently. Because it isn't the major cause(if there is one)doesn't mean it isn't a cause. A bad education in a rich country is another blunt statement. I've said that scholastic education has little to do with violence. Because violent people are that way before school, on the whole. The education that is lacking is the one that makes us human and not animal: respect for other people. In fact these people are educated to hate other people, and quite often it is a conscious effort on behalf of their elders. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
>>>We are animals, deep down, and a lack of 'something' (education, money, involvment with society) returns you to that. Violence is the natural answer to all ape problems. One of the reasons I blame DNA. Higgins: "Haven't you got any morals, man?" Doolitte: "Can't afford 'em, guvnor." | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
>>>The education that is lacking is the one that makes us human and not animal: respect for other people. Yes, that's all part of cultural deprivation. As you say, poor people nowadays live better than royalty of the past, but something's gone wrong with the discourse to which they exposed/subjected. It's like a cycle of emotional (and often physical) violence. And that would account for white-collar yobs, too, I'd wager. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.244.67 |
The crossover with chav and yuppie is emotional coldness with parentage. I would wager that the criminal yuppies of today have a recent lineage to the chavs of the past. They just kept the upbringing when their great great great great grandpa stole enough to buy a factory or a slave ship. I feel like an evil Catherine Cookson. |