| Author | Message | ||
     Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 212.74.96.200 |
Not the movie, but the actual night, before bonfire Night, when tis traditional of the children of Yorkshire to put on their bothersome airs and cause mild but fun mayhem for folk. Or so did it used to be. Now it's mainly headstrong kids throwning stones at your window and slashing a street's cars' tyres. How thigns have changed since I was a lad, when knocking on doors and running away, hedge-hopping, and swapping the street signs around was about the sum of our prank-making. Fingers crossed, it's too cold for the nippers to be out. Of course, they might just set fire to things, like the bus they let off a fire bomb on the other night, gutting it completely. . . Gary and Albie, if you'd like to begin . . .!} | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.16.86.104 |
I think we need to ban two words from this entire message board: "template" and "chav." | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.242.126 |
Nothing ever happens round our way on Mischief Night. Except for fireowrks going off. It's a concept that sums up Yorkshire and its people for me, though: nasty, selfish, parochial and stupid. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
I blame Wat Tyler and Arthur Scargill. Oh, and Billy Bragg. Social workers, liberal politicians, the hippy movement, Walt Disney... If you tell serfs they can all be kings you'll just end up with chavs. It's an obvious template. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
I'd always wondered who was hiding behind the 'Albie' pseudonym. Now I know it's a hybrid of Norman Tebbitt and Richard Littlejohn. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
What they did together to produce said hybrid is an entertaining thought. It probably involved mixed semen, IUDs and a surrogate mother. A mischief night to remember. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 212.74.96.200 |
>>nasty, selfish, parochial and stupid. That'll be me. Nothing too violent in the villages round here from last night. A couple of cars scratched and the old folks' retirement homes fireworked. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 212.74.96.200 |
Billy Bragg lives in rural Wiltshire now, you know, Albs. I imagine him with a log fire and a thatch. | ||
| Steve Bacon (Stevebacon) Username: Stevebacon Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 90.209.220.3 |
There's nothing wrong with wrapping a dog turd in newspaper, setting fire to it outside someone's front door, then watching from a distance when the occupier rushes out to stamp out the flames. Aah the fun I 'ad as a nipper in Yorkshire. My school made the one in Kes look like Hogwarts. | ||
| Steve Bacon (Stevebacon) Username: Stevebacon Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 90.209.220.3 |
But I can't be a chav. I read Thomas Ligotti. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
Joel Lane:The offspring of Mark Thomas and...Mark Thomas...and Mark Thomas...and Mark Thomas. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
>>>It's a concept that sums up Yorkshire and its people for me, though: nasty, selfish, parochial and stupid. Hmm... | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
Tee-hee...it took you ages to notice that.  | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.244.67 |
People seem to think i'm right wing. I'm only right wing on one subject. I call that well rounded. And given that I'm against the most right wing people on this planet:chavs, I'd say that makes me about as right wing as a bag of toys. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
>>>it took you ages to notice that That's because I'm stupid.  And nasty, you utter cunt. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.244.67 |
A bag of toys, I tell you. And, no, not nazi tanks. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
You forgot about parochial...  Albie, like most people I know you are neither left or right wing. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
Are they really? I understand chavs to be white British people who mimic the dress sense, speech and music taste of black American rappers. I suspect chavs are collectively less right-wing than, say, bikers or the ill-defined 'white power' gangs. I've seen an apparent chav (from his outfit and mannerisms) intervene to stop a racially motivated fight on a bus. However, if you define chavs as violent bigoted scum in general, then it's a tautology: anyone with that mindset is a chav, regardless of appearance. In which case we need another word. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
Referring back a few postings, of course. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Gary McMahon: General Generaliser, Home Guard. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.244.67 |
Who identifies with that experience of chavs? Few and biased people. You think chavs aren't racist now? hate gays? women? anyone who isn't a chav and lives in their hood? I can only say you are lying to yourself. No one here will say otherwise. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.244.67 |
And an anecdotal account of a chav not being a racist. Does anyone learn anything on this site? | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Oh, go back to making daft jokes, man. Its circularity is getting boring now. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
The fence is a comfy place to sit, and the older I get the more I realise it gives you the best view of what's going on. Regards, G.E. Neral.  | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
To be serious for a moment, I increasingly find that I don't fully agree with anyone - my opinions usually are somewhere in the middle, and often contradictory. When I was younger I had many hard-held beliefs, but as I got older, wiser and experienced more of life, I realised that most of them were a load of ill-thought-out tosh. I don't choose to sit on the fence; I just can't choose one side or the other. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Is that the same as being woolly-minded? | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
Probably. But I also think it's the only sensible option: never commit, simply ponder. Forever. No one ever knows enough about a given subject to form a concrete opinion anyway. (Shit. Now I sound like Albie) | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
That's also a good rationale for apathy. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
>>>No one ever knows enough about a given subject to form a concrete opinion anyway. Pragmatism, not idealism? If we all sat around not committing, we'd still be sitting in caves listening to Del Shannon records. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
Maybe. maybe not. I can't seem to care enough to form an opinion.  Seriously, though: no. It does, however, mean that I am open to everyone's opinions and willing to change my own if the argument is convincing. I like to think that I've simply taken off my blinkers. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
>>>But I also think it's the only sensible option: never commit, simply ponder. Forever. No one ever knows enough about a given subject to form a concrete opinion anyway. Hell, you've turned into a postmodernist! The problem with this is, I think, that nothing ever gets done. For instance, before folk knew that the earth revolved around the sun, people could still plot their harvests according to erroneous knowledge. That's what I mean by pragmatism, not idealism. We don't need to know everything about any issue in order to deevlop serviceable theory about it. Indeed, where postmodernism is probably right is the fact that we can't know everything about anything. But to avoid making hard choices as a consequence of that gets us nowhere - we starve. Mind you, there was that terrible business with Edward Woodward... | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
Albie, as usual you're missing the point. I ask how you define 'chavs' and you say it's obvious that chavs are evil. Are they therefore defined by their horns and tails? Or are all evil people chavs by definition? You seem addicted to a vague, repetitive mantra and call any request for clarification a denial of reality. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
I'm not advocating apathy, gary - quite the opposite. In my world, everything I say makes sense.  The above lines you're quoting were meant as a joke, btw. What I'm trying to say is that rather than stick blindly to one opinion or another, a little fence-sitting and pondering can allow you to form a new one of your own, taking influences from all the other opinions around you. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
I think what you mean, in part, is that, for example, traditional definitions of, say, left and right are probably beyond their usefulness now. I agree. See how I qualify my statement with, you know, interjections? Western dualism is corrosive to the complex world. Both/And, man. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
(I'm still saying all this five years on... Sigh.) | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
Yes, that's what I'm saying, in my usual clumsy manner. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
Let me try and boil the Albie 'chav' line to its essentials. Working-class criminals are criminals because of a combination of poor genetic inheritance and the bad influence of trade unions and liberal theorists who lead them to expect more autnomy and success than the economy can support. That view is pure Thatcher/Tebbitt 1980s 'new right' ideology of the kind that has been discredited for twenty years. It has cobwebs on it. It predates the concept of 'chav' by a generation, and its foolishness is painfully clear to anyone not immersed to the neck in Sun-reader bullshit. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
And in my obfuscating way, let me add that you're now inductive and not deductive. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
My post was in answer to Zed's, of course. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
You cheeky bastard. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
Seriously, though: I'm not anything. Don't label me, baby. I aint no Nike shoe. I am a Zeddist. The only one. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
I can think of some appropriate labels. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
And that, sir, is your great weakness. For I can thini of none.  | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
I love pretending to be pompous, me.  | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
My labels for you couldn't be found in a Jane Austen novel, believe me. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 83.98.9.4 |
But you could make them by cutting the letters out and sticking them on a piece of card | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 83.98.9.4 |
using badger poo for glue | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 212.74.96.200 |
A chav is anyone who annoys me and wears burbury and his baseball cap backwards and throws bricks at my window. Like that bloody Norman Tebbit. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.114.136 |
A chav isn't clothes, or class - it's behaviour, a certain type. And yes, it's largely yobbish and anti-social. I've nothing against decent poor folk at all. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.242.126 |
Indeed. The modern-day chav is a media creation - we were calling yobbish wasters chavs in the north east over 20 years ago. The word has been hijacked by knobs like Julie Birchall. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.114.136 |
And pasted cruelly onto ordinary folk. I wish they'd do something about it because my missus thinks I hate poor people. To me it's like calling poor people 'yobs'. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
There's actually no doubt that a great many people use 'chav' to mean 'white fan of black American pop music'. White blues band The Hamsters recently complained that the term 'R&B' has now come to mean 'chav music like Destiny's Child'. This is far from an isolated incident. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
>>That's also a good rationale for apathy. >>The problem with this is, I think, that nothing ever gets done. Might I add something? I never said we should ponder and do nothing. I said the RIGHT people should be debating this, and most issues. With the RIGHT scientific data. US forming an opinion doesn't get anything done anyway. Yet we emotionally involve ourselves in opinions we know next to nothing about. We have no right to. I think Gary's true opinion on this is that it would be BORING to not have opinions and not discuss them. Which is true. But it is an illusion that our discussions do anything other than entertain us. That's why I'll gladly pop that bubble when I think someone is being a snob with my opinions. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
And this is a good example of snobbery as can be found... >>Let me try and boil the Albie 'chav' line to its essentials. Working-class criminals are criminals because of a combination of poor genetic inheritance and the bad influence of trade unions and liberal theorists who lead them to expect more autnomy and success than the economy can support. >>That view is pure Thatcher/Tebbitt 1980s 'new right' ideology of the kind that has been discredited for twenty years. It has cobwebs on it. It predates the concept of 'chav' by a generation, and its foolishness is painfully clear to anyone not immersed to the neck in Sun-reader bullshit. Joel, go and ask a few Pakistani shop keepers who racially abuses them. They won't be complaining about students or solicitors or teachers. It will be your pet scum the chavs and their thicko dads. I suppose the BNP membership is comprised of bankers, is it? And not the one eyed criminal scum with shaven heads that we usually see. Shouldn't you be out selling copies of the Socialist Worker? | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
But it is an illusion that our discussions do anything other than entertain us. Yep. If we really cared about any of this stuff, we'd be out campaigning, not sitting in our comfy chairs typing about it on a message board. (Ducks for cover...incoming!) | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
>>>Might I add something? I never said we should ponder and do nothing. I said the RIGHT people should be debating this, and most issues. With the RIGHT scientific data. US forming an opinion doesn't get anything done anyway. Yet we emotionally involve ourselves in opinions we know next to nothing about. We have no right to. That's a recipe for the very kind of political disenfranchisement that has subsumed the great majority of people in the recent past (including me, until recently). Even if all folk do is make an informed vote, that's good, and if public forums have contributed to informing such people, all the better. Btw, in my own field, I'm working for social change, currently via the Department of Health. I come on here and other places because it can generate some interesting discussions, including those I've had with you. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
>>That view is pure Thatcher/Tebbitt 1980s 'new right' ideology of the kind that has been discredited for twenty years. It has cobwebs on it. It predates the concept of 'chav' by a generation, and its foolishness is painfully clear to anyone not immersed to the neck in Sun-reader bullshit. Bullshit. I'm talking about an escalation. Every peasent revolt has a socialist fool behind it, with a big gob and half a brain. The chav is the end product of this. People like you created the dissatisfied worker. People like you created the chav. You've been goading their dad's into action for hundreds of years, and it came to very little. Now you've created a culture of people who think they deserve more than they can get. So they steal it. If this has been debated and thrown out then feel free to tell me why. You won't. Because you're lying. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
Or the discussion was held between biased socialist entities such as yourself and came to the natural conclusion that it wasn't their fault. Big wow. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
>>>Yep. If we really cared about any of this stuff, we'd be out campaigning, not sitting in our comfy chairs typing about it on a message board. God, how predictable. I've been waiting weeks for someone to come up with that old chestnut. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
 Sorry; couldn't resist. It's like seeing a switch and being unable to throw it. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
To be serious, I can see what Albie's saying here, but I agree with this, Gary: "That's a recipe for the very kind of political disenfranchisement that has subsumed the great majority of people in the recent past (including me, until recently). Even if all folk do is make an informed vote, that's good, and if public forums have contributed to informing such people, all the better." We need to keep talking. I've had several opions changed by reasoned debate on this forum. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
>>That's a recipe for the very kind of political disenfranchisement that has subsumed the great majority of people in the recent past (including me, until recently). Even if all folk do is make an informed vote, that's good, and if public forums have contributed to informing such people, all the better. You can't expect everyone to be fully clued in. Nor does voting come into it with this kind of thing. You don't choose what is scientific fact by voting. The right people discover it. >>Btw, in my own field, I'm working for social change, currently via the Department of Health. I come on here and other places because it can generate some interesting discussions, including those I've had with you. But you are not at the core of scientific research, are you? And if you are, what could we possibly provide but biased half thought out opinions? | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Exactly. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
>>We need to keep talking. I've had several opions changed by reasoned debate on this forum. A change isn't always a good thing. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
>>>But you are not at the core of scientific research, are you? And if you are, what could we possibly provide but biased half thought out opinions? With regard my team's research issue, yes we are. We're advising the government directly. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
>>Exactly. So you agree that we contribute nothing? Or are you implying that you are here to teach us the truth? | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
Albie, I think a change is usually a good thing - and if it isn't, good can offten come of it. It's all about communicating, listening, being open to other opinions, IMHO. That's all we can ever do, really. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Sorry, that was in response to Zed's comment above. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
I think Gary's "exactly" was directed at me, Albie. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.74 |
Moderation, please. No need to call anyone here a liar. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.244.67 |
>>With regard my team's research issue, yes we are. We're advising the government directly. I wondered why quotes from me turned up on that White Paper. Or is there more than a little truth to that? You could only be studying the misconceptions of modern man if you think we can add anything for the Top Table. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.244.67 |
>>Moderation, please. No need to call anyone here a liar. Time will tell. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.244.67 |
No need to call some a right wing sun reader either. You must have been watching telly when Joel insulted me. Well, the several times he's insulted me. I don't expect you to fall out with a pal though. Peer pressure is such a common cause of censorship. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.74 |
I'm sorry if I was unclear. I meant please don't do it. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
A quotation from our latest publication: "Carers save the government an annual £87 billion and yet these people often suffer great hardships that are unrecognised by pulling a baby out of a fleshy pit while its mum and dad were BBC1 and ITV." | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
That was a joke, by the way. Nature's way of defusing rancour. Now everyone, just shut the fuck up! | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.244.67 |
But do you admit we provide nothing? We can take it. Well, I can take it, because it backs up my opinion. Have you told Gordon Brown about there being no free will? I think he'd like that. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
>>>But do you admit we provide nothing? No. But I can see how that falls into your tacit epistemology. Everyone has their place in society and nobody can shift from that. The powerful will always govern, and us plebs will always struggle. I'm a cliche, though, aren't I? I came from a council estate to make only a negligible scribble-around-the-edges difference. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.244.67 |
You don't admit that we provide nothing to science with our debates? | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Oh, the debates - sure we don't. But why lionise science? It isn't all about science. As Wittgenstein said... (Get back to your council estate, Fry! Don't try to reach beyond your genetic reach!) | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
I must say here (because Gary won't blow his own trumpet) Gary's work has made a substantial difference ay a high level lately. It even made the national news. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
So do killer chavs. Sorry, couldn't resist that. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
Oh, go outside and organise a campaign. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
Albie, what on earth makes you imagine that anyone should, or has time to, 'debate' your alarming combination of 1930s pseudo-science, 1980s anti-union rhetoric and naked paranoia? It may help you to retreat from the nasty world into hysterical slogans, but the idea that other people should take your political ravings seriously is rather sad. Go away and read Stephen Jay Gould's THE MISMEASURE OF MAN and Erich Fromm's THE FEAR OF FREEDOM just for a start. Get offline. Don't sit there ranting like Newt Gingrich on bad acid and imagine that because you have said something it has to be 'engaged' with. People will engage with you if and when you engage with reality. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 83.98.9.4 |
I think you're being a touch aggressive Joel. Remember Voltaire - I may not agree with what you're saying but I will defend to the death your right to say it. Albie's arguments on this thread have been restrained by his standards except when replying to aggressively phrased retorts - in which case he seems to have responded in kind - and I for one don't blame him for that. Show a bit more respect and you'll get more reasonable responses. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.74 |
I don't see the progress of the argument as you describe it, Marc. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 83.98.9.4 |
I do | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
Escalation, Weber. I've put up with Albie's abuse for what feels like years, and eventually the temptation to hit back becomes overwhelming. You're right, though, and I apologise. I'll leave this topic alone from now on. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
I agree with Voltaire's quote (even though Voltaire never said that; it was one of his biographers), but I have to say that debating with Albie is an endless sequence of not rising to the bait. He rabbit-punches below the belt. Still, water off a duck's back. No more cliches in this paragraph, thank you. Still, having said all that, I do think he has a right to express his viewpoint here, and that it should be responded to in a rational manner. Call me a wet old liberal if you wish. I just wish he'd behave in a similar way. Aggression in an argument isn't ruthlessness, 'going to war' or keeping the opponent sharp; it's just a lack of respect for others - something Albie claims chavs lack. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 212.74.96.200 |
>>I've been waiting weeks for someone to come up with that old chestnut I'm sick of those chestnuts. But it is the time of year for them. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.16.84.216 |
I'm sick of those chestnuts. How's that Dr. Dre song go...? I'll clean up what I remember here: "... So then if I have nuts on my chest, does that mean they're called 'chestnuts' ?" "No. That means [deleted]"  | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.242.126 |
I agree with Voltaire's quote (even though Voltaire never said that; it was one of his biographers) Only you could know this, Gary. As always, you amaze me. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
I bet my Uncle Stephen knows it, though I don't think his friend Alan would. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
>>Albie, what on earth makes you imagine that anyone should, or has time to, 'debate' your alarming combination of 1930s pseudo-science, 1980s anti-union rhetoric and naked paranoia? It may help you to retreat from the nasty world into hysterical slogans, but the idea that other people should take your political ravings seriously is rather sad. Go away and read Stephen Jay Gould's THE MISMEASURE OF MAN and Erich Fromm's THE FEAR OF FREEDOM just for a start. Get offline. Don't sit there ranting like Newt Gingrich on bad acid and imagine that because you have said something it has to be 'engaged' with. People will engage with you if and when you engage with reality. Weak. >>Erich Fromm's THE FEAR OF FREEDOM "Fromm analyses the character of Nazi ideology and suggests that the psychological conditions of Germany after the first world war fed into a desire for some form of new order to restore the nation's pride. This came in the form of National Socialism and Fromm's interpretation of Mein Kampf suggests that Hitler had an authoritarian personality structure that not only made him want to rule over Germany in the name of a higher authority (the idea of a natural master race) but also made him an appealing prospect for an insecure working class that needed some sense of pride and certainty. Fromm suggests there is a propensity to submit to authoritarian regimes when nations experience negative freedom but he sounds a positive note when he claims that the work of cultural evolution hitherto cannot be undone and Nazism doesn’t provide a genuine union with the world." Is this supposed to counter my argument? It backs it up. The trade unions ARE the Nazis. The Nazis did exactly what the trade unions attempted to do. To appeal to the working man's pride, to goad him into action. The results are the same: an army of uncaring, uniform wearing yobs. >>Stephen Jay Gould's THE MISMEASURE OF MAN As far as I can see has nothing to do with the issue I've raised. But then I didn't expect either of these books to help your side of the debate, because throwing up books for me to read is a)a delaying tactic b)a putting off tactic c)a means to try and make me bow to your snobbery and learning. None of which have worked. You won't directly attack my view because you CANNOT. And making out that my view is so silly that you won't deign to answer it is not fooling anyone but Ramsey. And Ramsey, you are about as unbiased as Hitler at a KKK barbecue. Joel has been at me since he's been here. He seems to think he has a right to make snide remarks at anyone he deems right wing. But you've not said a thing about that. Because you would love to insult me too. I used to have respect for you, now I just think you are so flawed as a human being that I can't. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
>>Still, having said all that, I do think he has a right to express his viewpoint here, and that it should be responded to in a rational manner. Call me a wet old liberal if you wish. I just wish he'd behave in a similar way. Why should I behave that way with people who tell me to fuck off because I have an opinion he doesn't like? He even apologised, which PROVES he knows he was wrong. Then he says I'm Richard Littlejohn and Norman Tebbit. Then he implies I'm a Sun reader. First few weeks here he implied I was Tubby Thackery. I hadn't said a word to him. And calling me a Sun reader is SO ironic, because I don't read that paper and because the people he is trying to defend DO read it. I'd love to see him go to a factory and insult someone by calling them a Sun reader. He wouldn't get out the door. Which proves what I've said:people like him USE the working classes as a tool, which gets damaged in the process. He thinks he's out to help them, he's really out to hurt them, and secretly he hates them and their Sun opinions. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
>>Aggression in an argument isn't ruthlessness, 'going to war' or keeping the opponent sharp; it's just a lack of respect for others - something Albie claims chavs lack. Gary. In our last barny YOU got aggressive with me first. You lose your temper long before you even realise it, but it shows in your posts. Because you lose half your reasoning power. Hence you think one anecdotal account is worth adding to a debate. It doesn't matter how heated I get, I don't lose my reasoning power. If anything it gets stronger. That's what comes of living amongst working class scum with big gobs and no brains. I've had to develop reasoning power to stay sane and out of prison. And I mean sane, not the "oh, I'm going mad, me, just like you, Albie." thing. You and Joel probably only used reasoning to get degrees. Don't tell me, that tested your sense of reality too. "why I once coudln't bear to go on anymore." | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
>>I agree with Voltaire's quote (even though Voltaire never said that; it was one of his biographers), but I have to say that debating with Albie is an endless sequence of not rising to the bait. He rabbit-punches below the belt. Balls. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
>>Escalation, Weber. I've put up with Albie's abuse for what feels like years, and eventually the temptation to hit back becomes overwhelming. By 'abuse' he means me having my own opinions that do not gel with his. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 83.98.9.4 |
Albie More than a touch aggressive there. he's apologised as you admit. That doesn't mean he admits he's wrong, he admitted he was being aggressive. You'd been quite restrained (on this thread) so far now you've been and gone and spoilt it. Lets all calm down now and relax. You've both said things you shouldn't. Your post at 1:04 was quite good until the attack on Ramsey, showing you knew the work in question and using it to back your own argument is a rational form of argument. The01:11 post really let you down. This is the type of Albie post that puts peoples backs up. You can be really intelligent and rational in arguments when you try, "Why should I behave that way with people who tell me to fuck off because I have an opinion he doesn't like?" because being reasonable in the face of insults can be a much more effective tool than shouting and screaming back. The person who'll come off worst in most peoples opinions is the person who throws out the most abuse in lieu of argument - something which you are wont to do occasionally. We all (most of us) like you (I do at least) and have respect for you but you do push things. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
I like you, too, Albie, but you're a tricky customer. Joel has apologised above, but I don't recall ever receiving an apology from you after, say, you went away and wrote that Amazon review of my book or when you lost your rag over a comment you mis-ascribed to me. That's the difference. I agree that Joel has been inflammatory here, and as moderator, I've allowed you to respond to that. Now please accept the apology, and in future whenever you say anything offensive to someone (as you have above), please muster up enough decency to apologise. Can you do that? | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.244.67 |
>>because being reasonable in the face of insults can be a much more effective tool than shouting and screaming back. The person who'll come off worst in most peoples opinions is the person who throws out the most abuse in lieu of argument - something which you are wont to do occasionally. So I'm flamboyant. And it wouldn't matter if I were more reserved. People like Joel attack persona, not opinions. He has the majority behind him, not to mention Ramsey. Shouting is my only real choice. And I don't believe either of his apologies were due to any damage aimed at me. The first was to try and get out of a sticky situation. He'd over reacted and he felt he wouldn't be able to back it up or get support. Also, he he's apologising to you, for causing another argument. This is a man who's face whitens when he sees Sarah Palin, or even anyone who looks like her. He's been trained to be this. He couldn't see anyone else's opinions even if Spock were mind melding with him. He's a bigot. He would say I was a bigot. Yeah, I am.I hate the lifestyle choices of criminal scum. And those who defend them, because they think it is the same thing as defending the working classes. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.244.67 |
Apologies are lies, Gary. They serve only to pander to the pride, ego and vanity of others. I apologize to you.  | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.244.67 |
Debate amongst the laymen, serves only to blow off steam, Gary. If Joel has blown off steam, then he should thank me. He has been allowed to attack his bogeyman. He hasn't done a very good job of it. But then, hopefully, he'll have learned a few things about the process of trying to mentally lock horns with the thing in the wardrobe. Don't go in there unprepared. Sadly, as a race, you are all unprepared. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.244.67 |
Admit it, Gary. Logic will shut me up for good. All I ask is to be destroyed by logic. If people's opinions have strayed from the path of logic then I'll point it out. And if the desire to destroy me isn't incentive enough for the lesson to stick, then nothing will be. You'll either end up more determined or secretly aware and ashamed of your lazy opinion filters. Be logical and convincing with your debate, and I'll be nice. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
To be honest, Albie, I don't actually feel that you're capable of an honest apology. Just as you never issue a simple congratulations to anyone who's achieved anything that means anything to them. Maybe both these things simply imply a level of intimacy you can't handle, despite all your tough talk. Having respect for others and being a reasonable person is a sign of maturity, and not weakness. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.251.62 |
This is all the result of no one heeding my second post above, alas.... Actually, blame Mark - he started this.  | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.108.27.91 |
Astonishing. How could my first post on the board refer to Tubby Thackeray when I've been posting on this board since 2003? And anyway I admire Tubby Thackeray, so any comparison to Albie would have related to the anarchic humour he sometimes displays to such good effect. OK Albie, I'm apologising to you now. I don't expect you to remember that you'd been undermining me with caustic and snide comments for a long time before I reacted, because you are clearly incapable of recognising such things. I apologise because I should have made allowances for what you are like. And if only a fool would associate 'chavs' primarily with enthusiasm for rap culture and possible anti-racism, would you like to explain why you posted the comment, months ago, that 'Ian Brown is a chav'? Is he a criminal? No. Is he right-wing? No. Is he racist? No. Is he a white man who expresses enthusiasm for black American urban music in his words and appearance? Yes. So you identified him as an evident chav. Not me, Albie. You. And I'm sorry: I don't see why ugly, toxic right-wing drivel should be tolerated on this board, let alone treated with respect and 'debated'. What next: a thread on the case for and against Holocaust denial? You can't have a 'balanced' debate when one side is utterly unbalanced. All you can do is say 'There, there' and hope the person responsible is getting some help. I don't wish to post on a board where sick, twisted, offensive nonsense has to be 'treated with respect'. It's unhealthy. Take care, folks. I'll see some of you in other places. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.242.126 |
 I wish you'd stay, Joel. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 80.225.216.137 |
>>Actually, blame Mark - he started this. I second that. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 80.225.216.137 |
I am actually a bit annoyed. I spent twenty minutes writing a little something about all the above and I've just noticed it's not there! Argh-bloody-argh! | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 80.225.216.137 |
Anyway, a question: would this debate be as heated if we replaced the word "chav" with "turd"? | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.176.229 |
The problem isn't the words used, it's the immaturity and constant belligerence of the people (well, one of them) involved. It's been a problem for years (as Gary has alluded to above). | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.254.171 |
I don't see why ugly, toxic right-wing drivel should be tolerated on this board... Just so I'm clear: "ugly" and "toxic" and "drivel" are the perjoratives, with "right-wing" being the descriptive. We would be equally offended by "ugly, toxic left-wing drivel" too here, right?... Because out there, elsewhere from this board, there's enough ugly toxic right- and left-wing drivel to crush the skulls of whole fields of bunny rabbits. | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.176.229 |
I'm with you there, Craig. Toxic templates, on the other hand.... (just kidding) ;-) | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 212.74.96.200 |
I've always taken the view that you're as offended by something as you want to be. Just a matter of keeping things in persepctive. But yeah, if someone is being perceived as constantly rattling your chain and you're not enjoying it, then it's a bit tiring and you either tune them out or walk away or ask the person to stop doing it, while allowing that you disagree. I hope both Albie and Joel stay. I like them both and find them both amusing and provocative. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Indeed. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.254.171 |
I hope both Albie and Joel stay. I like them both and find them both amusing and provocative. Me too! The problem with the two of them is, as I see it, is that they take each other seriously. Whereas all you have to do, is laugh at each-other's self-perceived authority. Like I do with Mr. Gary Fry - or "Nutbag McGee" is I affectionately term him.... Now as to HUW (mispelling intentional) and his wielding of templates... I warn you: the bunny rabbits aren't getting any less dead.... | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 80.225.222.198 |
Art Garfunkel Is Singing . . . The long awaited collaboration between Richard Adams and Thomas Harris. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Fucking screenwriter scum. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.17.12.22 |
I'm sorry, Gare. I meant to say, "Mr. Nutbag McGee." | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
>>Maybe both these things simply imply a level of intimacy you can't handle, despite all your tough talk. Having respect for others and being a reasonable person is a sign of maturity, and not weakness. Parochial. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
>>And if only a fool would associate 'chavs' primarily with enthusiasm for rap culture and possible anti-racism, would you like to explain why you posted the comment, months ago, that 'Ian Brown is a chav'? Is he a criminal? No. Is he right-wing? No. Is he racist? No. Is he a white man who expresses enthusiasm for black American urban music in his words and appearance? Yes. So you identified him as an evident chav. Not me, Albie. You. He threatened to kill an air stewardess recently. Oh, of course, you'll have an excuse for that. Anyone who has seen his anger and petulance would know he was a scum bag. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/200016.stm I hate it when people look before leaping. Embarrassing, is it not? | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
Don't look, I meant. SHUDDUP! | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
>>And if only a fool would associate 'chavs' primarily with enthusiasm for rap culture and possible anti-racism I never even said that. You added the bit about rap culture. I've said many things about what signifies a chav. We all know what they are. And I'm not just against chavs but career criminals generally. I wish you would keep up, Joel. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
>>And I'm sorry: I don't see why ugly, toxic right-wing drivel should be tolerated on this board, let alone treated with respect and 'debated'. Told you he was a snob and a bigot. Way to prove it, Joelene. >>What next: a thread on the case for and against Holocaust denial? And why not? if someone here thought holocaust denial was good I would gladly debate them into submission. >>You can't have a 'balanced' debate when one side is utterly unbalanced. All you can do is say 'There, there' and hope the person responsible is getting some help. Boring(in Homer Simpson voice). | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Albie, check out the thread called CONTROL OF THE BOARD. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
>>I don't wish to post on a board where sick, twisted, offensive nonsense has to be 'treated with respect'. It's unhealthy. Take care, folks. I'll see some of you in other places. Translation: Hi, I'm Joel Lane, maybe you've heard of me. I don't like it when a website I'm a member of doesn't gang up on people we don't like. Such as places like the TTA board. So I'm going now, taking away my name and reputation as a writer elswhere, to a more bigotted website where I will be safe to attack anyone I don't like with the knowledge that all the other members will back me, as will the website moderators-who are personal friends of mine. You can blame Albie for driving me away (aw, go on, as a last ditch attempt to make you hate him). But in fact I'm just worried that my arguments didn't really have any depth to them. I was scared of Albie. Bye now, this is me Joel Lane, taking away his bat and ball (don't you just hate Albie for making me leave?) Childish man. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.74 |
"Translation: Hi, I'm Joel Lane, maybe you've heard of me. I don't like it when a website I'm a member of doesn't gang up on people we don't like. Such as places like the TTA board. So I'm going now, taking away my name and reputation as a writer elswhere, to a more bigotted website where I will be safe to attack anyone I don't like with the knowledge that all the other members will back me, as will the website moderators-who are personal friends of mine." Rubbish. This actually reminds me very much of someone else. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 83.98.9.4 |
Albie Aggression wins fights. Reasoned arguments win debates. You seem to be permanently fighting. calm down Joel, Please don't leave. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
This is getting sick. The assertion that I expect people to have 'heard of me' (why?) is offensive, as is the assertion that I see 'my reputation' as giving my presence weight. The use of my full name is clearly intended to expose me to ridicule (and is a remarkable step on the part of someone who refuses to use his own real name). 'Albie's' comments are defamatory and I would appreciate their immediate removal. Deleting this entire thread might be a good idea. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.74 |
I'd rather keep the thread, Joel. I've already said that the comments about you are rubbish, and frankly I don't expect anyone to take them more seriously than similar ones that have been made about me. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
OK. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 06-2008 Posted From: 86.157.25.29 |
Gary Z zed: To be serious for a moment, I increasingly find that I don't fully agree with anyone - my opinions usually are somewhere in the middle, and often contradictory. =============== That's wisdom. :-) | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
Des, that's exactly what I was trying to put across. I think it's a healthy standpoint, to be honest. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 83.98.9.4 |
If I walk into a room where a group of friends are having a friendly argument and start shouting and screaming my opinions, hurling personal abuse at anyone who tries to disagree with me, I will quickly find that everyone stops arguing. That doesn't mean I've won the debate. It means that evryone else has gotten fed up and left the room and is probably carrying on the debate in a reasonable manner in another room. Albie, if you're still here, you are capable of carrying out a reasonable debate but all too often you resort to the tactics that annoy everyone - especially your friends because we know you're capable of better. Please don't leave, this board will be a duller place without your lunatic humour. On the worst day I've had this year - last week the day I was handed my notice - you made me laugh out loud with your comment on the RCMB online fiction thread. Calm down your debating style a bit - well quite a lot - stop the personal attacks after every percieved slight made against you - and we can all get on with each other again. As I said earlier, Aggression wins fights not arguments. Most of us here don't want a fight. We come here to relax and have a laugh and indulge in light-hearted banter and the occasional debate. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.4.154 |
Well said, Weber. |