| Author | Message | ||
     Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 212.74.96.200 |
There was a show on television a few nights ago. Some-time crime writer and (of late) mainstream novelist and critic Stella Duffy was invited to try her hand at producing the first three chapters of a novel and a synopsis to submit to the romantic fiction publishers Mills and Boon. Because I’m always interested in watching shows on writers – popular fiction writers especially – I made sure to tune in. And I found the show something of an eye-opener. I wasn’t surprised to learn that the only truly successful writers of such novels – selling in the millions – were the ones who had a passion for the books and were doing their very best to produce the best books they could. I’ve always thought this a natural truth that’s hard to argue with, whatever genre a writer is working in. But there were other areas of the business and in particular the approach to producing so specifically tight and narrow a type of book that did surprise me. Duffy gamely leapt into the task. She met up with readers of the M&B books and the head editor, exploring the actuality of the modern books and their contents compared with her preconceptions. Gone were the blushing virgins and parlour language; instead the Eff-word could happily be invoked, full-on sex could be described (and not solely at the end of the book, though the preference was for suggestive and erotic content rather than hard, factual descriptions of docking manoeuvres), and the genres ranged from the traditional “modern” and “historical” through to new areas M&B had moved into with tremendous success: “intrigue” and “supernatural.” There were standard demands of the books still in place: a female protagonist seeking love and finding it at the end of the book, an alpha-male to be the object of desire, rich and exotic locations, and anyone naked to be toned and well-built. All in 55,000-words. What intrigued me the most, was the section of the show where Duffy sat in on a M&B writers’ course, and this harks back to what I mentioned above, the stuff that most surprised me, though I’d suspected by this point it was coming. When given tasks to produce short snatches of scenes for the book the writers were collectively hypothetically writing, Duffy joined in, to her credit, producing rough first drafts. The teacher, who had sold five million copies of her M&B novels, was quick to quash internal dialogue by Duffy’s characters. Thought processes were not encouraged on the page. Prose was swiftly relegated to the minimum, too, especially descriptive passages of environment and place, even actions. “More dialogue. Tell it through dialogue,” the teacher was quick to instruct. “It gives it all pace.” Applying the things she’d learned, Duffy produced her three chapters and a rough synopsis, finding her original outline had gone out the window as her novel slipped into the “supernatural” genre and not the “modern” she’d originally thought she’d aim for. After much rewriting and some helpful commentary from the M&B teacher, she made it as pacey as she dared, full of dialogue, and with the bare minimum of description. Unhappy with the piece from her own point of view – remembering her own conclusion that no matter what the genre, you should always write your best and write what you want to write, whether your book fit the market or not -- but seeing it met the requirements of a M&B novel as she’d learned them, she subbed her work, feeling happy it was all over. Of course, she admitted, she’d be gutted fi the proposal was rejected, even if she’d no intention of ever completing the novel she’d outlined and worked so hard on creating. Today, popping through a supermarket and thinking of that show, and the “rules” Duffy had learned, I sauntered over to the fiction section of the store. Browsing through novels by relatively new authors, I saw each was following the same pattern of short sentences (so short, some weren’t actually sentences but words with full stops after them), short pacy paragraphs, and yes, a lot of dialogue. Any ambitions in the direction of descriptive or lyrical prose was absent as far as I could see. The lot of them, these books by relatively new authors, followed the M&B template, if tilted to different genre expectations (mostly the detective novel and thriller). And each felt like it could have been written by the same author… The only books with longer descriptive passages were by older hands: John le Carre, Ian Rankin and Stephen King, for example. So I was wondering, if you’re still with me, is prose dead in modern popular fiction now? Is there a place for it in pop fiction, as there once was? Or have James Patterson and his imitators won? Should all chapters by three pages long, mostly a mix of stuttering sentences and dialogue, and a lot of white space on the page? Kind of depressing to think it may be the case. Oh, and yes, Stella Duffy’s book was accepted for publication, should she want to write it… As long as she made the opening chapters a little more pacier. | ||
| Lincoln Brown (Lincoln_brown) Username: Lincoln_brown Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 121.219.228.84 |
Interesting, Mark. It just so happens that I bought, and started reading , a novel by a relatively 'new' author who only works in the horror genre (as far as I know). Everywhere you look on the 'net, this guy seems to get a mention - so I thought I should check him out. I was shocked and surprised - the sentences are so short, and, to my untrained eye, there didn't seem to be any 'style'. Sure, it moved along at a cracking pace, but I didn't feel part of the story, I didn't feel like I was there. It was a stark contrast to the other books I'm currently reading/have been reading - Campbell, Ligotti, McMahon, Morris, Williams. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.2.2 |
I don't read enough contemporary fiction, to really say if "prose is dead." What was "pop fiction," anyway? There's just not enough data in this shambling unit, at least - i.e., me - to make a sound critical analysis. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 80.225.212.228 |
Lincoln, Hammett (Blessings Be Upon Him) said "The best style is the style you don't see". But I don't think he meant that things should be kept simple: I think he meant the Hemmingway example, Steinbeck, Fitzgerald, and others, of making the prose invisible while creating emotional involvement through a build up of detail over the narrative of a book. Modern bestsellers I've looked at seem like clockwork mechanisms of the most basic kind, designed to turn quicker and quicker until you've reached the end -- the end being the point you've to reach as soon as possible. When you get to the end, though, in such works, you can't help but feel "What was the point?" I'd describe "pop fiction" as novels with a strong emphasis on story that are intended to be read by a mass number of readers. Better examples at the top of the craft being: OLIVER TWIST, BRIGHTON ROCK, THE HONOURABLE SCHOOLBOY, and so on. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.242.126 |
Interesting points, mate. I wonder if M&B are open to subs...  I see what you mean about a certain section of popular fiction, but I don't read in that sphere, so all I can say is that most of the books I read - and I'm talking about books from mainstream publishing houses, not the small press - show a great deal of style and substance. But that's why I choose to read those particular titles. Lincoln - thanks so much for grouping me with that supremely talented lot. Come on, tell us the name of the writer you're talking about...or email me off the board. :-) | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.242.126 |
Mark - can you be more specific? Give us titles, authors. Come on...no one is going to sue.  | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.242.126 |
Lincoln, is the clue in your photgraphs? If the author is who I think it is, I started reading one of his novels a couple of weeks ago, got to chapter 2 and threw it in the bin. It was technically proficient, but flat and uninvolving. Not my kind of thing at all... | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 212.74.96.200 |
>>I wonder if M&B are open to subs... They are, and get 3,000 submissions of completed novels a year, accepting roughly 20 new writers into the fold annually from that slush pile. Good luck making your zombie an alpha male! >>Give us titles, authors. Come on...no one is going to sue. Actually, I'd rather not, even if they didn't sue! But all you've got to do is look at the mass makret-sized format books on the shelves in Morrisons, as I did. (Ha, go on then, tell me you only shop at Waitrose now you're a published novelist!. . .) | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 212.74.96.200 |
>>I started reading one of his novels a couple of weeks ago, got to chapter 2 and threw it in the bin. Oh, Zedney! Charity store, purlease, for such books. They do, eventually, help someone then! | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.242.126 |
Why would you rather not be specific, Mark? This is all just a bit wooly otherwise; we can't really pinpoint what you mean without examples. We have nags of stuff all over our house for the chariry shop - some of it's been there for over e year - and we keep forgetting to go. Plus, that first chapter of that book (The Conqueror Worms) was terrible. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.242.126 |
I will add, though, that I've enjoyed the couple of short tales I've read by the same author. | ||
| Lincoln Brown (Lincoln_brown) Username: Lincoln_brown Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 203.51.163.246 |
Zed - it was Brian Keene. Thought I'd try something by him before attempting 'The Rising' and its sequel 'City of the Dead'. Both sound excellent, plot wise, but now I don't think I'll bother. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
This is all worrying. The MTV generation has spoken. Time is at a premium: can't linger on a story when there's shopping to get done. Strip everything down to basics. No room for unnecessary slack. Be practical not fanciful. With only one body and all the world to get through (now available online), we can't labour over pretty words. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.129.21.168 |
I think all you need to get published now is the ability to string words together and an IDEA. Once the blurb has got you buying it the publishers job is done. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.129.21.168 |
Yes, Gary; write a little intro/prologue that can be read in the moment it takes you to get to cold meats. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
To be fair, the liks of M&B have been doing this for decades. It's nothing new. I remember reading such rubbish in the 1970s, when I first picked up a book - even then I was aware enough to know what was crap. Linmciln - yeah, I did the same with Keene. I really wanted to like his stuff as his ideas are good and he has an enviable work ethic, but the prose is very basic. I'm not knocking the guy; it's what his audience want. And I'll still try The Rising and City of the Dead, because I love the zombies, man. I just love 'em. . | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
Tony - publishing has become like Hollywood: it's all about the "high concept" idea and the execution doesn't matter. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
Linmciln? Of course, I meant Lincoln...  | ||
| Guy (Guy) Username: Guy Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 80.39.57.151 |
There's nothing wrong with lean writing. It can be lovely to savour thick and juicy prose but wordy for the sake of it is godawful stuff. The governor's work cannot be read quickly, no, because its construction is suitably literate that it takes consideration to appreciate the work. Good work like Ramsey's is not common however and I have read so much work - as editor and reader - that has made me beg for the red pen as it is simply over laboured. Gary, you talk about "No room for unnecessary slack." In that post I would argue that this phrase is misplaced as I agree with it wholeheartedly. There IS no room for unnecessary slack in good writing. Necessary slack, well-handled, can be a joy though. Also, there is a running thread here that says all you need in modern publishing is an idea. I would argue that's not true but would say that even if it were then it's not all that bad. Truly bad writing has few of those after all. | ||
| Guy (Guy) Username: Guy Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 80.39.57.151 |
It is irritating that the third para above needs at least two examples of the word 'work' removing from it. No style, that's my problem! | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
I meant 'unnecessary' as defined by the publisher? No internal dialogue? The way Mark describes it, those books are like frilly screenplays and not proper prose. Why should I waste five hours reading it when I can see it on film in much richer detail in two hours? Surely one of the things that written fiction brings us is stuff that can't be done in film, etc. Cut them out and what's left? TV shows for bus journeys. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
Oh, no, not the dreaded "lean prose versus wordy prose" debate...  | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
No, I think this issue is qualitatively different from that one. Even lean prose retains something that can't be duplicated in other media. | ||
| Guy (Guy) Username: Guy Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 80.39.57.151 |
I'm not sure there's anything wrong with TV shows for bus journeys actually, if a story is good then it's worth experiencing. If it is written badly then it's hard to take pleasure in of course, but written simply is no issue to me. I don't disagree with the above 'no internal dialogue' being nonsense -- nor am I specifically defending Milla and Boon, my points were at the wider issues Mark is raising. The posts here are saying that short sentences are bad, I am simply saying 'not always'. Also, while internal dialogue can be wonderful, it can be dreadfully superfluous too and simply hammering a point home to the reader that could have been made in a neater fashion. I always think the best way to approach writing is to justify ever word that goes in. What is it there for? Does it add anything? My impression from some people's writing -- and I must be clear that I'm not talking about people I've worked with here my dear Gary's! -- is that the most common mistake in bad writing is to assume the more words one uses the better and that is far more odious to me than sparsity, which I can live with. Yes prose offers us something different to other media, Gary, at its best it is the most potent method of storytelling we have. It is all still storytelling however and 'telling stories' is a noble aim, beautiful prose is the icing on the cake that makes certain writers stand out from the rest. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.129.21.168 |
'Surely one of the things that written fiction brings us is stuff that can't be done in film' I'm still on reading Aickman and have been agonising over this subject. I think Aickman could be filmed, as I've seen him in film. He's a little in David Lynch (but not quite) and in Mike Leigh. I've seen him by acident in the middle of a daytime soap, and it's here he seems to happen more. Aickman seems to write at arms length, aloof, but gives us the impression of witnessing awfulness through a telescope. Even that feels wrong; the moment you sum up Aickman he moves on, like an eel in your hands. For me a book fails the moment I see the writers lips moving in my minds eye. And these bads books we are talking about lack flavour. | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.195.253 |
'Lean' or 'wordy' can both work - it's all down to the ability of the writer, I think. When I'm constantly bombarded with one or two-word sentences (or even paragraphs, heaven forbid), I begin to despair, and reach for my LeFanu or Machen, or whatever leisurely-styled volume of prose is closest to hand. I love descriptive prose, but only if it's well-written. I can read Isak Dinesen, for example, forever and not get tired of it, but there are also writers who just waffle on and on without any great degree of skill and without really getting anywhere, and this is just as offputting as the choppy, clunky writing that so many practitioners adopt today. | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.195.253 |
Tony, interesting points. I'd say there's also a touch of Ingmar Bergman in Aickman. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.129.21.168 |
Oh yes, of course. Ooh, I haven't seen much Bergman - just ordered a bunch. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.129.21.168 |
Just read Aickman's Marriage. Good Lord. | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.195.253 |
It's quite a mind-bender, isn't it? | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.195.253 |
Helen Black and Ellen Brown - now there's a couple of thoroughly Aickmanesque names. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.129.21.168 |
That and The School Friend. I feel like these things happened to me. And God, what words; 'He brazenly looked into the universe'. Who else wields such lines so powerfully, and effortlessly? He's also funny; 'And then an awful thing happened.' I mean, that could almost be funny if what happened weren't actually so bloody awful. | ||
| Karim Ghahwagi (Karim) Username: Karim Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 204.104.55.244 |
No doubt- The Rising is a modern classic of Zombie fiction, and Keene probably wouldn't give a flying fuck if people find the prose to be whatever :-) I like his attitude to his work etc-and he's bloody funny as well. Also if I read more vampire, werewolf stories and so called regular zombie fiction I'm going to shoot myself. I think its fine to keep the tradition alive, but then try and add something new for Christ sake. As regards to high concept thrillers- there are fine examples of lean, commercial, high concept thrillers that work nicely in what they set out to do. Take 'Relic' By Douglas Preston for example, I rarely want to read long convoluted sentences that try to complicate things more than is necessary. I enjoy the Landlord's work precisely because I find he has found a wonderful balance for both the leanness and the very rich complex sentences. A screenplay is just a set of notes about a film, like an instruction manual- but there can certainly be an art and good craft there as well. As anyone read Tarantino's screenplays as they were published in an omnibus with-Natural, Resevoir, Pulp and True Romance- he's a brilliant screenwriter and his scripts are entertaining to read. Rant over. Hope everyone is having a nice day and that no one will wig out on the board today :-) | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.129.21.168 |
He keeps describing their clothes, and gloves. You know, reading him on the trot, I think he's the king. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.129.21.168 |
Aickman! | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
I think Ramsey said it best when he described this kind of writing as "betraying the concentration level of the reader or the author or possibly both". Which is not to say it can't be done well - Ramsey also admires Richard Christian Matheson's pared-down tales - but on the whole I believe most writers who write in this manner - eg, Hutson, Riley, Laymon - aren't using this kind of terseness as a literary device. | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.195.253 |
'The School Friend' is one of my favourite Aickman stories, Tony. Have you read 'Wood'? One of the most memorable scenes in Aickman's stories, for me, was when the strange women (occupants of the doll's house in 'The Inner Room') keep closing in on and touching the protagonist. Little touches such as this are infinitely more unsettling than any amount of gore. "And then an awful thing happened" - it's been a while since I read it (the story I suspect you're referring to, that is), but does the terrible thing involve a hand? | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.129.21.168 |
It happens a few times. It's not specific. He just seems distant, almost polite. It's like he's trying to be as restrained as possible yet evoking the most dread imaginable. Sorry, to invade this thread, but there are things that recur in Aickman; armour, dogs, puzzling books, clothes. Aickman can make the stripes on a jumper threatening. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 83.98.9.4 |
we're debating one of the greatest examples of pared down prose on another thread aat the moment so it can work brilliantly. that said, it can be atrocious - as per the examples quoted above As with any kind of writing, it's down to the skill of the author | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.129.21.168 |
Not sure if I've read Wood. I'm getting there, though. BTW anyone else feel that while it's nice to have the collected volumes they're hard to read? I've tried buying the volumes smaller if poss, though they can be dear. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
I've seen him by acident in the middle of a daytime soap Tony, that's the most evocative thing I've read on here in ages...please elaborate! Bergman: please, please, please, please, watch Bergman. I've not heard anyone else say this, but for me he made sort of metaphysical ghost stories (rather lie Aickman did). Ghost stories without ghosts; about haunted people, haunted lives, haunted psyches. Watch The Silence, Through a Glass Darkly and Cries and Whispers...Jesus wept, they are breathtaking. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
anyone else feel that while it's nice to have the collected volumes they're hard to read? Yes. The text is too small. It hurts my eyes...which is why I rarely read them. I wish they'd produced 3 or 4 volumes instead of 2. | ||
| Guy (Guy) Username: Guy Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 80.39.57.151 |
I'm not suggesting the terseness is always a literary device just that as long as the story is good then there is still worth in the material. Worth that is easier accessed than a good story hidden by excessively wordy prose. The key word there being 'excessively' of course. As we say good writing will always out and the great writers are those who can tell good stories with wonderful prose. The work of Hutson and Laymon though is something else entirely! All of their prose is excessively wordy to me as none of it has worth at all. Give me a blank page as alternative every time. Riley? Who? Maybe I'm lucky I don't know. | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.195.253 |
I prefer to read the individual volumes, Tony. I have the Tartarus set, and think it's great to have all the stories together like that, but to be honest I don't read from them much. If you're reading the tales in order, then 'Wood' is just a few stories away - let me know what you make of it! | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.129.21.168 |
Ha! Just meant the tone of his work has been glimpsed - by me - in stuff like Doctors, things like that. There was one ep about a bedraggled young woman walking around a city claiming the aliens had come, grabbing strangers and trying to tell them. It was utterly chilling, and it was probably helped by the fact I never saw part two. The thing is, I think there are real ghosts too in Aickman; his world is as strange as it gets. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.129.21.168 |
Thing is, I feel like I revere the Tartarus' too much, hold them like they were made of glass. Maybe I should drop them a few times. But yes, they seem to take an hour a page to read, and it feels wrong. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
You are. >>>I'm not suggesting the terseness is always a literary device just that as long as the story is good then there is still worth in the material. I know what you're saying, but this strikes me as an example of a missed opportunity. Are we saying the writer is incapable of better? In which case, maybe s/he should try harder. Or are we saying that it's written that way for a specific audience? Hardly a worthy motive. In either case, if there's something missing that ought not to be, I'd question the whole process that allows it into print. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
That "You are" relates to this: >>>Riley? Who? Maybe I'm lucky I don't know. He writes word like "BOOM" to depict an explosion. Mark and I once had a chuckle in a bookstore reading his prose. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
At least his books were in a bookstore. :-/ Why should wordy prose be classed as better than terse prose? This argument, to me, is always in danger of becoming snobby. IMHO there are two genuine genius' working in our field, Ramsey and Joel Lane. Many descrive Joel's prose as terse, but to me there's none better. It's about economy of effect rather than labouring the point. Why use 100 words to say something you can put across more effectively in 10? | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
To repeat: I'm not talking about terse prose which works well. I'm talking about lazy prose that should work harder. This kind of thing: Frank stepped across the room. There was a man behind the couch. He leapt up. He had a gun. Frank had only a moment to react. As the man took aim, Frank pulled out his own gun and fired. The man went wheeling back across the room, blood pouring from the wound in his chest. Etc. | ||
| Guy (Guy) Username: Guy Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 80.39.57.151 |
It being for a specific audience can be a worthy motive I think. Part of the reason this discussion resonates with me I suspect is that I've been working on kid's stuff of late and an excellent writer friend passed on a 'rule of thumb' that had served him well. Never write a sentence with more than two clauses if it's for a children's book (unless wishing to achieve a specific effect that is, like with all writing there are no rules of thumb that hold true consistently). His point was to maintain story, atmosphere, character... but try and convey it in a simple fashion. There is no question that he inherited this attitude from the editors and house style of the publishers he has worked for and one could argue that this is, again, a good example of why the above Mills and Boon 'rules' are distasteful creatively. BUT: My two stepsons read very little - though more so in the last six months thankfully! - and certainly they respond badly to convoluted prose. They like a story to be told as simply (while retaining effectiveness) as possible. Okay, so that's just for the children's market but I can think of some popular novelists that fit this bill too. Good stories will always be of worth even if they are told in a simpler manner than our personal tastes might wish. Wanting to tell stories to people, to move and excite them, that is a noble aim. To wish to do it beautifully is even better, agreed. I think we both agree that crap is crap I just have a real knee-jerk response against the notion that good writing has anything to do with the length of a sentence. As said above it will always be about skill, nothing else. | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.195.253 |
I think there are a lot of great writers around - Lisa Tuttle, Reggie Oliver, Lucius Shepard, Terry Dowling, to name just a few - although I agree that Joel and Ramsey are two of the best (the best, in Ramsey's case, as far as I'm concerned). It's how it's done that makes the crucial difference to me. I've never read a story by Joel that reads like the kind of stuff I see in so many books by new writers nowadays. His writing is fluid and precise without being ugly, choppy and lazy; qualities all too apparent in much of today's fiction. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 83.98.9.4 |
Frank stepped across the room. There was a man behind the couch. He leapt up. He had a gun. Frank had only a moment to react. As the man took aim, Frank pulled out his own gun and fired. The man went wheeling back across the room, blood pouring from the wound in his chest "Ow" he said, "watch what you do with that, you'll have someone's eye out if you're not careful" | ||
| Guy (Guy) Username: Guy Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 80.39.57.151 |
Crossed posts... Fry: The sort of writing you are referring to is unutterable arse-gravy, yes. I just think it's important to say it's not the terseness that makes it so, it's the fact that it's just shite! McMahon: Agreed, when the discussion of what is good in writing becomes about the specifics of construction (should it be wordy or lean etc.) then the point that is missed - it is good or it isn't. Style - in the sense of cold physical construction rather than as an attribution of quality - is neither here nor there. The writer can write or he cannot. Sometimes discussions that analyse writing - and not here as we are a fine and literate bunch - foster the misconception that writing can be learned by following specific methods. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
Frank stepped across the room. There was a man behind the couch. He leapt up. He had a gun. Frank had only a moment to react. As the man took aim, Frank pulled out his own gun and fired. The man went wheeling back across the room, blood pouring from the wound in his chest. Gary, that's the best thing you've ever written.  Huw - you always mention these new writers. Come on, name names. (Hopes to God he isn't one of them). Btw, my wife paid me the greatest writing compliment I've ever had yesterday. I've convinced her to read Joel's first novel, and she said that she could see his influence upon my work. I smiled like this all day:  | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Adams: that's all I meant.  | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
Everyone:  | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Zed: I just extracted it from that passage you sent me from your zombie novel. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
Touche, sir! | ||
| Guy (Guy) Username: Guy Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 80.39.57.151 |
This is changing the subject slightly but I stumbled across a message-board thread discussing the use of swearing in fiction a month or two back and lost the will to live. The discussion was simple: should you or should you not use swear words in your fiction. I looked at it and thought... well, you use the right word in the right place and why are we even having this conversation? 'Here is the rule,' someone said (which always makes me sit forward and clench my fist). 'Characters can swear but a narrator NEVER can. Fuck off, I thought, you've never read Joe Lansdale at his best if you think that. It's not about rules, it's just about whether it works or not. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
More from Zed's new novel: Ronald Smythe-Panderer stepped into the room. It was full of zombies. Zombies rushed at him. He didn't like zombies. He ran away. The zombies chased him. His slippers hindered his haste. The zombies gained. One slipper fell off. A zombie stopped to eat it. Ronald kept running, now in a comic hobble. The other zombies gave up, retreated. They shared the item of footwear. It had a bit of Ronald's veruca caught in it. | ||
| Guy (Guy) Username: Guy Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 80.39.57.151 |
My favourite example: 'It was on a summer hotter than two rats fucking in a woolen sock...' That is a marvelous opening line. Oh, and -- crude but not profane -- in another story a woman's genitalia is described as being 'like a taco in need of a shave.' You wouldn't take him home to meet your mother but thank God he exists. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 83.98.9.4 |
That's awesome, me want reed dat booc | ||
| Guy (Guy) Username: Guy Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 80.39.57.151 |
Ahem... examples of Lansdale not McMahon. McMahon is much cruder. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
Gary, I'm simply writing the word zombie 100,000times. Each one is a single papragraph. Lansdale is great: the master of swearery. Here's McMahon's rule of writing: just fucking write. | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.195.253 |
Zed, don't worry, you aren't one of them - I wouldn't be buying your books if you were! As Guy says, it isn't the wordiness or terseness itself that is the problem. What I object to is the lack of skill and feeling for the rhythm and flow of language - something I feel all good writers should possess. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
Here's one of mine (froma recent tale), describing a man urining with an erection: "It was like trying to force water through a short length of steel tube attached to floating balloons" | ||
| Guy (Guy) Username: Guy Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 80.39.57.151 |
That's just filth. Short length you say? | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 83.98.9.4 |
urining? Is that the next example of pared down prose? Chopping bits out of the words themselves? | ||
| Guy (Guy) Username: Guy Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 80.39.57.151 |
lev hm lone, cnt cnt hlp t. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
bllx | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 83.98.9.4 |
| ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
is icrophone n't orking. | ||
| Guy (Guy) Username: Guy Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 80.39.57.151 |
The bastard son of Norman Collier. Or is it just a bastard? | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.129.21.168 |
Aickman! | ||
| Guy (Guy) Username: Guy Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 80.39.57.151 |
Aickman is the son of Norman Collier? Fuck me... | ||
| Jonathan (Jonathan) Username: Jonathan Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 79.69.98.147 |
Indeed. We are thinking of calling McMahon's novel Dick and Jane meet the Undead you know. There will be no clauses in Abaddon titles!  It's interesting to hear how Mills and Boon work. I have a friend who used to write them along with working on the odd episode of the Avengers. She's stopped writing long since sadly due to ill health. Abaddon is unusual I suppose in that we're using the work-for-hire model, in that we're asking for a particular type of story often set in an already well-explored universe, but we allow the writer to go with the plot where they will. With the zombie fiction we're even freer. We just ask for good zombie stories well told. Other series have a particular background and plot points to bear in mind. Style-wise, I find it a great joy working with writers who produce varying styles of prose. There are no house rules on how Abaddon titles are written, I just ask that they're written well and with careful consideration. The prose style of our books varies quite widely from Paul Kane's gung-ho action epic Arrowhead to Al Ewing's utterly bonkers, written in a variety of style zombie private-eye story, I, Zombie, to McMahon's gritty and vicious zombie horror. To whatever my one is going to be like, which is 30,000 words in now and, hopefully, worthy of a read. | ||
| Guy (Guy) Username: Guy Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 80.39.57.151 |
It is unusual and certainly to be lauded. I'm just finishing my Torchwood novel and have to say I have a few concerns as to whether I'm going to be asked to 'simplify' it a bit. That will be the irony folks, I'll be on here moaning about how they forced me to remove all the internal dialogue. And the science... And the humour... And the bit about the Croquet mallet... | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 79.70.11.219 |
All sounds good Jonathan...great to hear that you've finished it Guy. Sarah is ahead of you though :>) Actually which one of the three is out first? | ||
| Guy (Guy) Username: Guy Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 80.39.57.151 |
All three come out at the same time, me, Mark Morris and Pinborough. They're nervous at sharing the slot, bless them, but one tries to put them at ease. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.6.15 |
Henry James started a zombie novel himself, of which only a fragment survives - here's a sample: "It was with a certain delectation of the diversions of his spiraling momentum, that brought him to the threshold of the curious cottage, that ever seemed at the point of final usurpation by the sinuous vines that wound round the eaves and porticoes, and sills dusty with last season's ash. But such was the moment of its waning, that delectation shaded quickly to a kind of quickening mastication, and he pondered as he fretted, worrying the thought much the same way he worried the meat from the child's screaming, bubbling torso. 'Surely--but yes! how tremendously!--' he broke off, snapping the bone-meal, waiting for a touchstone response. But of course the mind had formerly disconnected, and he faded again, understanding, the moans, were all that were terrestrially comprehensible...." It was to be called, BLOODY BLOOD BLOODLETTING. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Jane Austen actually finished one; here's the opening: "It is a fact universally acknowledged that a zombie in need of a hearty repast will flock with its friends and family to well-populated and aesthetically appealing locales. Indeed, a zombie's mind is very rapid: it moves from feasting to digestion and hence to fresh sustenance in a marked trice. Many a time and oft, a zombie will face an ungovernably moral dilemma: whether to eat and indulge its appetites, or to resist and lose the tacit endorsment of its goodly peers." From FRIED AND FRED YOU DISH (1824) | ||
| Guy (Guy) Username: Guy Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 80.39.57.151 |
"The brain, I say, is tasty fayre, but chew it well or wind beware!' (Exeunt with meats) "A Zombi's Tale" by William Shakespeare | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.14.110 |
& | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.129.21.168 |
Hey Guy - do you have to like Torchwood to write the books? What a challenge to write such a thing, something usually considered so disposable. For the record I think the books (and the Whos) are very accomplished indeed. I also liked the series, for the most part. | ||
| Guy (Guy) Username: Guy Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 80.39.57.151 |
You don't have to like Torchwood, no. I found it very hit and miss to be honest but the concept was there and the characters had good potential. That's all I need in this case. Tie-In fiction is considered disposable of course but I'm pleased with the book so fully satisfied to put my name to it and badger people to read it. As far the opinions of others go... ...It's my job, I don't write books I don't eat! Besides, the guvnor did Tie-In back in the day so I can certainly live with it! | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 80.225.194.173 |
Well, the reason I was holding off naming names was because I thought we were being a bit careful with such things, so as not to bring Ramsey’s reputation into it, for fear of reprisals should said writers read this board and wonder why he didn’t sanction the removal of the naming and shaming. I did mention James Patterson’s imitators because I felt that was vague enough without directly pointing the finger. And seriously, the A-format (is it?; chunky little old fashioned bestseller-sized books) titles and authors – save, as I said, for the odd brand name long established -- on the shelves at the supermarket are pretty interchangeable anyway. I’m sure there are plenty of decent titles out there. I know, because I read them myself. But the newer titles designed to be mass-market from newer writers are adhering to rules similar to Mills & Boon, which I honestly don’t believe used to happen to the same extent that it does now. When Tony says – fairly, I suppose, at first glance – that it’s like Hollywood: a good idea and no attention to how its done – isn’t, though, correct. There is an awful lot of attention as to how it’s done. It’s done with minimum stylistic effort, an awful lot of dialogue couched in phrases to tell you what’s going on, and with precious little subtext, if any, beyond a character perhaps being called Raine if he’s a weatherman. I know it’s always been this way to some extent, but even so, there seems to be a lot more of it, making a higher profile of itself on the shelves, to the exclusion of other stuff. I deliberately quoted Hammett (Blessings Be Upon Him), byt the way, because in a sense I think he may well have written the first modernist novel with THE MALTESE FALCON, using short sentences and, I think I'm right in syaing, no internal dialogue whatsoever. Everything's told in an artful way all the same. MY favourite writers are often less-is-more merchants, so I'm certainly not criticising that approach. Gary's example above is partly what I was talking about. But -- and again, I'm not going to name the writer, though she's doing very well just now -- I opened a book with an opening chapter of six sentences that was four print lines long. Not only that, but the sentence was one long one. That had been broken up with full stops. For no reason. That I could see. The rest of the novel was the same, I saw glancing through. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.129.21.168 |
I know it! Right - now off for a CHOCOLAT bar... | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 80.225.209.181 |
I've got some white milk chocolate at the moment, Tony. Yummy. Never used to like it, but now I do. | ||
| Guy (Guy) Username: Guy Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 80.39.57.151 |
Perhaps was it down with a glass of Blackberry Wine? | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 79.70.11.219 |
Anyone for an orange? What I would'nt do for a flake right now. | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 79.70.11.219 |
Wouldn't - it's Friday! | ||
| Guy (Guy) Username: Guy Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 80.39.57.151 |
Have a Crunchie then, bless you. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
So, Mark, how do you suppose the first version of your Ray Bradbury tribute tale would do in today's market? That first line... | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 212.74.96.200 |
Aye. It were a good 'un, that 'un, weren't it? | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Dean Koontz writes like Mark's description above. I had a look yesterday. Large font, short paras, lots of nice white space... | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 80.225.209.214 |
What's strange about Mr K's stuff is that he didn't use to write like that, except under pen names. Everyone's dumbing down. I blame james Patterson. Patterson, incidentally, is thought to be the UK's most read author right now. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.229.35 |
Vonnegut deliberately dumbed himself down: PLAYER PIANO, his first novel, reads like it was written by a totally different author; so do early short-stories. Then he realized he wanted to reach a mass audience, and he fashioned a style for himself: short pithy sentences, no punctuation but for periods and commas, etc. He speaks of consciously doing this, in order to widen his appeal. The ease of reading Vonnegut's work accounted, I think, for half his popularity. And I myself love Vonnegut's writing - I've read literally everything he's written/had published. But Vonnegut's style also matches his world-view, his temperment, his philosophy, his - his Himness. It wouldn't have worked, if it didn't. What you get from Vonnegut is wonderful and vital, but you can't get it from, oh, say, even Hemingway, a similar stylist. Vitamin V isn't available in Vitmain H bottles. Or Vitamin C(ampbell). Style, and no substance; or no style, and no substance. That's what I fear is everywhere in contemporary fiction. Why I read so little of it... unfairly, admittedly.... | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.242.126 |
What's strange about Mr K's slot of Koontz's tuff is that he didn't use to write like that I'll second that. I read a lot of Koontz's early novels. That's what I fear is everywhere in contemporary fiction. Why I read so little of it... unfairly, admittedly.... You are missing out, mate. There's also a lot of superb fiction out there. | ||
| Guy (Guy) Username: Guy Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 80.39.57.151 |
James Patterson is widely read, yes. At least books with his name on them are, that's not necessarily the same thing as his writing being widely read of course -- given the rather open secret that he has little to do with his 'co-written' novels. But then I write all on McMahon's books (while drunk) so who cares? | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 83.98.9.4 |
In a previous life I wrote the bible for a bet while I was drunk. It seemed like a good idea at the time. | ||
| Karim Ghahwagi (Karim) Username: Karim Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 80.167.124.223 |
What's strange about Mr K's slot of Koontz's stuff is that he didn't use to write like that I'll second that. I read a lot of Koontz's early novels. ---- Same here, then a while back I grabbed Odd Thomas on a whim as I was catching a train and had nothing to read. I actually enjoyed it. It was much sleeker than his early stuff. I tried reading a book of his from the early 2003-4? Gave up after fifty pages. He just went to Number one again on the NYtimes list last week -was this a book written in honour of his dog Trixie? I really enjoyed his early stuff- midnight, watchers, the bad place, etc} | ||
| Karim Ghahwagi (Karim) Username: Karim Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 80.167.124.223 |
But I really cannot get through his stuff now, at all. He worked best for me when I was 15 or 16. |