| Author | Message | ||
     Niki Flynn (Niki) Username: Niki Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.32.69.29 |
I thought this one deserved its own thread, as it's been sharing space with Friday the Thirteenth on another thread and the relevant links should all be in one place anyway. (I know, spot the obsessive...) Thanks, Ramsey, for the excellent news about a fully restored MBV: http://www.shocktillyoudrop.com/news/topnews.php?id=8926 Hooray! I've already preordered my copy from Amazon and am really looking forward to seeing the missing footage from one of my old favourites. It also sounds like there's some intriguing story behind the classic "Ballad of Harry Warden": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNKaYV45Klk Of course I'll have to see the remake too. The trailer (thanks, Craig!) looks great: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=bsRbqpiqkKU And just because tonight's the solstice, here's my other favourite 80s slasher film theme song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Be-t1W0C2hA | ||
| Richard_gavin (Richard_gavin) Username: Richard_gavin Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 65.110.174.71 |
It's too bad you don't live nearer to Toronto, Niki. 'Rue Morgue' magazine is hosting a theatrical screening of the original, uncut version of MY BLOODY VALENTINE at the Bloor Cinema next month. Director George Mihalka will be there to introduce the film and for a post-screening Q&A. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.146.176 |
A fully-restored MBV is a matter of rumour, apparently. I saw them in 1990 – one of the best gigs I've ever been to. The audience was largely teenage kids with fringes down past their noses; by the end of the gig (which went on to midnight), half of them had shattered eardrums and were reeling against the walls, wondering what had hit them. I played my vinyl copy of 'You Made Me Realise' to a heavy metal fan later and he said it was too extreme for him. Oh... you're talking about some film. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.10.183 |
Hooray! I'm gonna pre-order mine too, Niki! Things can't be that bad, if 2009 starts off this way... I actually feel joy, knowing there's this to look forward to... Creepy song, that... did I see this movie?... I must have, but my mind's stuck right now on the pretty-damn bad APRIL FOOL'S DAY... well, another one to go revisit... that theme song sounds like something off Chick Corea's The Mad Hatter - now there's a random synapse-firing.... | ||
| Simon Bestwick (Simon_b) Username: Simon_b Registered: 10-2008 Posted From: 86.24.165.182 |
It has its flaws, Joel, but it's still a very good film. And the theme song is a classic folky murder ballad... I'll be first in the cue, I know that much. | ||
| Simon Bestwick (Simon_b) Username: Simon_b Registered: 10-2008 Posted From: 86.24.165.182 |
'queue', I meant to say. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.10.183 |
a classic folky murder ballad... I'll be first in the cue  [exit stage left] | ||
| Niki Flynn (Niki) Username: Niki Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.32.69.29 |
I always thought it sounded like Gordon Lightfoot. | ||
| John Llewellyn Probert (John_l_probert) Username: John_l_probert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 90.203.130.203 |
Well I have seen neither My Bloody Valentine nor J Lee Thompson's Happy Birthday to Me, so some slasher gaps there for me to fill. Is it me or do 'Slasher Gaps' sound like some bizarre fashion accessory I should invent? | ||
| Niki Flynn (Niki) Username: Niki Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.32.69.29 |
Thought your job was to stitch them closed again, Dr P.  And hey - nice to know there are at least one or two out there that slipped your net. Films, I mean. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.129.23.231 |
I've seen a film Lord Probe hasn't! Happy Birthday to Me! Wowza! | ||
| John Llewellyn Probert (John_l_probert) Username: John_l_probert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.253.174.81 |
I have however seen Fred Walton's APRIL FOOL'S DAY which is bloody awful even if it does star Deborah Foreman fresh from her appearance at the end of the Marquis de Sade's whip in Anthony Hickox's WAXWORK. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 212.121.214.11 |
"A fully-restored MBV is a matter of rumour, apparently. I saw them in 1990 – one of the best gigs I've ever been to. The audience was largely teenage kids with fringes down past their noses; by the end of the gig (which went on to midnight), half of them had shattered eardrums and were reeling against the walls, wondering what had hit them. I played my vinyl copy of 'You Made Me Realise' to a heavy metal fan later and he said it was too extreme for him." I saw MBV at the Apollo recently. It was one of the worst gigs I've ever been to. The last 35 minutes wasn't even music. It was white noise played at 150 decibels. I've been a metal fan for more than 2 decaces so I can pick a tune out of the most formless mess but this didn't have anything to appeal. They also had to restart several songs in the rest of the gig as their timing was out. They were a shambles on stage and rubbish in general. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.210.225 |
Sounds like I would have loved it. Didn't know they were playing live again. One man's formless white noise is another's visionary atonal ecstasy. | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.21.22.37 |
Ah, but is it music? | ||
| John Llewellyn Probert (John_l_probert) Username: John_l_probert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 90.203.130.230 |
I've been a metal fan for more than 2 decades so I can pick a tune out of the most formless mess That's marvellous | ||
| John Llewellyn Probert (John_l_probert) Username: John_l_probert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.253.174.81 |
I understand the proposed British rip-offs of My Bloody Valentine, My Arsing Christmas and My Pissing Easter were never made because it was thought the titles wouldn't travel. And also because they might cause confusion amidst fans of 'art' films | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.238.181 |
I heard, John, the Brits were planning actually to make My Pestiferous Boxing Day and My Nigh-upon Blasphemous Bank Holiday. | ||
| Niki Flynn (Niki) Username: Niki Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.32.69.29 |
It wouldn't surprise me if someone's already made My Horny Hogmanay. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.74 |
I'm happy to report that the new DVD is virtually uncensored, apart from one scene involving a drill, which appears to be irretrievably lost. The DVD includes the original theatrical cut, the restored version and also the deleted scenes as extras that can be viewed seperately. I must admit I'd previously found the film frustrating, because I was so aware that virtually all the gruesome scenes had been censored (much like my experience of the original British releases of La Maschera del Demonio and Sei Donne per L'Assassino). But the restored version was a lot more effective for me. | ||
| Simon Bestwick (Simon_b) Username: Simon_b Registered: 10-2008 Posted From: 86.24.165.182 |
That's great news, Ramsey. I don't like many slasher films- too many of them are shallowly written and characterised and the characters are an excuse for some tits and ass before a gory dismemberment scene. MBV (the original, I haven't seen the remake) and the recent Cold Prey are two very honourable exceptions to this. | ||
| Simon Strantzas (Nomis) Username: Nomis Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 38.113.181.169 |
True fact: "tits and ass" was McMahon's nickname in high school. Small world, ennit? | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
Where's the best place to obtain a copy of this new DVD? Can anyone furnish me with a link? Strantzas, you are a bad, bad man... | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 79.70.16.70 |
...rudey man :>) | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.74 |
I got mine here, Z. http://www.dvdboxoffice.com/190-3071890-21071895/movies/products/90349042?fs=tru e | ||
| Niki Flynn (Niki) Username: Niki Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.32.69.29 |
I won’t get to see the remake until it’s out on DVD, but I loved the newly restored DVD of the original! (I even tracked down an mp3 of “The Ballad of Harry Warden” online – hurrah!) It was wonderful to see all the things I've never seen before and the film made sense with all the missing footage put back in. It always felt haphazardly pasted together. It's got some properly scary scenes and one of the best settings for a slasher film ever. "Hey, you know the rule: No women in the mine!" There was one strange edit which may be simply a continuity glitch. (Spoiler avoidance) Two girls are trying to leave the mine. One gets gutted with a pickaxe and the other screams as she watches before turning away, presumably to run. In the very next cut she's ambling along the shaft, in no hurry and not looking particularly distressed. Another cut and then she's showing the distress that was missing from the previous scene. I suspect it was just a pick-up shot that was shoved in at the wrong place. And how churlish of me to point it out, but it's really my only complaint. The movie's not without its flaws, but most of them are of the charming slasher film variety rather than bad filmmaking. Oh, and my favourite line, spoken by the pathologist (a dreadful actor, bless him) after the first murder: "What are you guys doin’ with a loose heart?" | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.21.22.182 |
"We are showing a lot of heart for our work, aren't we?" | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.9.1 |
Great! Time to go get it.... Anyone see the trailer to another re-remake, THE LAST HOUSE ON THE LEFT?... Talk about giving the entire story out! You really don't need to see the movie after that one... not that you may have before.... FRIDAY THE 13th shows a lot too in its trailer, but I found it all to be, conversely, an enticement. | ||
| Niki Flynn (Niki) Username: Niki Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.32.69.29 |
Yeah, the LAST HOUSE trailer shows everything but the promise of a sequel it no doubt ends with. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
That'll save some people the utterly pointless experience of watching it. The 'original' film was a very, very bad remake of Bergman's THE SEVENTH SEAL, which is excellent. Wes Craven fellates those donkeys in Hell who can't get it up for Dario Argento any more. | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.195.70 |
I think it was actually a reworking of The Virgin Spring, Joel, but I agree with you about Craven, more or less. | ||
| Chris_morris (Chris_morris) Username: Chris_morris Registered: 04-2008 Posted From: 12.165.240.116 |
I've just read some reviews of the newly opened The Uninvited (starring Elizabeth Banks and David Strathairn) and discovered it's ostensibly a remake of the Korean film A Tale of Two Sisters! (I guess I haven't been paying attention. This was truly news to me.) The reviews I've read were positive, but I wonder how closely the filmmakers stuck to the source material ... | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.180.149 |
Not very, from what I've heard. I hope at least they've retained the essence of the original, and didn't abandon its sense of tragedy and menace. For me, the Korean film is on a par with classics like Picnic at Hanging Rock and Don't Look Now. I hope this new US version does it justice. | ||
| Niki Flynn (Niki) Username: Niki Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.32.69.29 |
US remake = Hollywood ending, dumbing down and "comic relief" Usually. A Tale of Two Sisters is a stunning film. It can't be improved on and therefore shouldn't be messed with. **sigh** | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.241.143 |
Craven started well, with THE HILLS HAVE EYES and LAST HOUSE ON THE LEFT, but his career soon went down the pan. I often find myself in the position of defending these two films, so I won't bore you all by doing it again...  | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.241.143 |
Ramsey - cheers for the link! | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.112.5 |
Craven is ok - the first and last Freddies are grand things. In fact all of them are supremely non-dull (I know he didn't do them). The first Scream was fun. I think we have to think of him as such - something of a carny type of guy. There are far worse folk than him at work. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.219.59 |
I agree. RED EYE was also a solid piece of work. He's a very very smart fellow and I like him. In the documentary Scream and Scream Again various horror directors talk about the urban myth of The Hook (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hook). All say that the moral of the story is to obey authority or you'll get killed. Except Craven, who says the moral is "don't stick the hook in until you're sure the car isn't going anywhere." You gotta love him. | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.186.39 |
I don't dislike all his films, it's the endless parade of 'Wes Craven presents' stuff, mostly. I liked A Nightmare on Elm Street and The Serpent and the Rainbow, among others. But he's responsible for some real junk, too. | ||
| Simon Bestwick (Simon_b) Username: Simon_b Registered: 10-2008 Posted From: 86.24.165.182 |
The Serpent and The Rainbow is definitely a bloody good film, probably Craven's best work. It's been so long since I saw Nightmare on Elm Street I don't think I can pass comment... although I do remember thinking it was pretty good at the time. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.13.166 |
Though I complain about the remakes, I still must admit, I do like them... they're eminently watchable. The only recent god-awful one was PROM NIGHT, which - speaking of cutting - felt so strange, that I would swear something happened in either production or editing... there are weird things going on, that don't quite make sense... I'll bet there's a story here somewhere.... The other pretty-damn-bad one was WHEN A STRANGER CALLS, but it was nicely shot, had its moments, so.... Well, Ramsey, that leaves - for me - only two old gruesome films now (no longer counting the old MBV) that I'm quite eager to see restored to their originals: FRIDAY THE 13TH Pt. 2, and the Italian 'TIS PITY SHE'S A WHORE - which seems to have been savaged by some unknown censor somewhere... the bastard.... This one looks like: whatever was originally in it, must have been pretty appalling... deliciously appalling... the dvd version available is not only sans-extras, and censored, but washed-out and crappy to watch.... Criterion? you paying attention at all?... | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.241.143 |
the first and last Freddies are grand things. Yes, indeedy. And THE PEOPLE UNDER THE STAIRS is great. I also think Craven is a smart fella, Proto. I don't mind him at all, really. As Tony says, there are far worse directors making films. Craig - the original PROM NIGHT is a pile of shite; I often wonder how it good a good reputation. Not seen theh remake. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.254.232 |
I agree, Zed, the original PROM NIGHT sucked; so did the original WHEN A STRANGER CALLS, except for the opening. But the remakes can take the suckies, and make them at least fun. When is someone going to remake THE LITTLE GIRL WHO LIVES DOWN THE LANE?... Not really in the horror genre, and not really a *great* movie, but it has its flavor of horror, its moments... it just might benefit from a once-over... the climax is the best part of that original... yeah, sure, why not? I'd see it.... | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.241.143 |
Yep, an original that sucks yet still has potential justifies a remake, I think. I just don't understand (outside of the financial thing) this obsession with remaking already-brilliant films. | ||
| Mick Curtis (Mick) Username: Mick Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.160.91.69 |
I guess firstly it saves on some of the script cost, as the story is already there, plus it grabs some of the original audience as well as a new one. Has to be about money in one form or another. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.251.189 |
Huw – yes, of course. I was typing in a hurry and a foul mood, rarely a good formula on the recall front. | ||
| Niki Flynn (Niki) Username: Niki Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.32.69.29 |
Forgot to say... Having watched all the extras on the DVD, I'm puzzled by this bit in the ShockTillYouDrop article: "One other person we hooked up with is [composer] Paul Zaza," he continues. "You might remember him for the end song that plays over the credits. The burning question with Paul was Why? Why and how? He's great and a really accomplished composer. He did scores for a bunch of films including Black Christmas and a bunch of Canadian films. His stories about how the end song came about are going to be very satisfying for people that always asked why." Where is this alleged interview? I was really looking forward to hearing the story behind the theme song. Is there an Easter egg somewhere in the extras that I've missed?  | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 212.121.214.11 |
"Yep, an original that sucks yet still has potential justifies a remake, I think. I just don't understand (outside of the financial thing) this obsession with remaking already-brilliant films." I keep saying this as well. Why the $%*% did they ever remake the Hitcher or Texas Chainsaw or Halloween???? Especially giving Halloween to a hack like Rob Zombie. Makes you want to gouge peoples eyes out and drip vinegar theough the bleeding eye sockets. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.248.119 |
But I enjoyed the remakes of THE HITCHER and TEXAS CHAINSAW MASSACRE. The remake of HALLOWEEN, sure, that was beyond bad - because it was unwatchable, it was boring and nonsensical. But the other two were rollicking rides... again, don't confuse remakes with originals, nor movies with books: always formulas for disappointment. (A template tangent just for you, Weber: I saw LAKEVIEW TERRACE. Now here's a movie you know exactly where it's going, beginning to end, no detours. Sure, tiny details along the way might vary, but the big beats are absolutely predictable. And it was 100% enjoyable given that - hell, for that. If this thing had taken a hard left or right, and been really surprising?... I'd have hated it. And it's proving wildly popular in the rental department: people love this kind of I-know-it-already flick, even if they don't know they know that....) | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.112.5 |
Because if a movie veers from that path it's making mistakes. It's like watching someone get lost in a maze - a predictable film is one were the person gets out, or reaches a destination. And I think me and Craig have said this before, but a film that goes too off tanget is actually dull. But it's unexplainable to some folk, and I can't be convinced otherwise either, so no need to reply. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.10.9 |
But I think a reply is necessary, because you make the fascinating observation, Tony, of a film veering off-path as being "dull." Which would seem to be counter-intuitive - after all, isn't strange and unexpected and path-veering enticing, exciting, the opposite of boring?... No, because expectations unmet are like a ticking clock; and everything else but meeting those established expectations, is laborious. A car chase on TV out of the blue, diverting attention, is exciting... a car chase on TV diverting attention just before coitus, is one sloooow chase.... | ||
| Chris_morris (Chris_morris) Username: Chris_morris Registered: 04-2008 Posted From: 12.165.240.116 |
"Expectations unmet are like a ticking clock." True, that. However, I think different viewers have different expectations. And further, different viewers have different clocks -- I'm willing to let that ticking clock keep on ticking, for instance, far longer than my father, who tends to like more straightforward stories than I do. Finally, I'm willing to let a filmmaker abandon that clock entirely -- like, say, Antonioni does with L'Avventura -- if I feel he's doing it for acceptable reasons. Everyone's different, you know. I don't think you can be prescriptive about these things. | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 61.216.35.161 |
Well said, Chris. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 67.116.103.241 |
I think any story works, for anyone, as long as it is working, and one is receptive to it - if one is absolutely not receptive to horror, then that doesn't make that same one's bored reaction to THE HAUNTING mean that the film is boring. Also, note, that you expect something from Antonioni... he IS his own set of expectations. I have yet to hear counter-arguments that bear out, to this entire theory of film approach (which I'm sure, btw, is not original). As time goes by, I'm more and more convinced this is an absolute. Sorry if that sounds arrogant, but... I didn't make up the reaction, it's just what I see and determine is already there. | ||
| Chris_morris (Chris_morris) Username: Chris_morris Registered: 04-2008 Posted From: 69.245.202.240 |
You're a smart guy, Craig, and you've obviously thought about these issues a great deal. However, I'd like to take one more crack at expressing my point of view. I was just reading a book that explains rather well, I think, a lot of what I'm trying to say. So, instead of rephrasing, which would frankly take time I don't have right now, I've decided to quote outright. The following quotes come from Stephen Dobyns's Best Words, Best Order, a book about writing poetry. He's talking here about poetry, not films, but I think the salient points apply to both art forms. (Just think of traditional, formulaic films as equivalent to traditional poems of metered verse, and "avant-garde" films -- such as Antonioni's -- as 20th century free verse.) "Even before we read the first line of a poem we have begun to anticipate: the poem's shape on the page, its title, the length of its lines, whether those lines are of similar or dissimilar length -- all act as information that allows us as readers to anticipate the nature of the reading experience. "Although a skilled craftsman of metered verse will tease the reader's anticipation with metrical substitutions, enjambment, and other devices to increase tension, a traditional sonnet still unwinds itself through its prescribed form. When we begin to read a sonnet, we anticipate that form and the moments of tension or uncertainty only heighten our expectation and pleasure. "A reader proceeds through a poem on many different levels. One of these levels is concerned with experiencing patterns of tension and release. A basic form of tension is the anxiety created in the reader when the writer apparently frustrates what the reader has anticipated to be the direction of the poem both in form and content: the higher the anxiety, the greater the tension. "We begin a free verse poem looking for and anticipating certain patterns and symmetries. In both metrical and free verse poetry, the poet manipulates the expectations of the reader. In much free verse, however, the poet consistently tries to keep the reader from correctly anticipating the direction of the poem. It is partly for this reason that "surprise" became a major tool of 20th century poetry. "To understand this we need to go beyond poetry to consider the society and how the society sees itself. The character of any historical period is reflected in its art, which is, in fact, a microcosm of that period. "In the Age of Reason, the major poetic unit of that period, the heroic couplet, is microcosmic model of that age. The twentieth century, on the other hand, has been typified by constant disruption and speed both in the physical and metaphysical aspect of people's lives. It has seen extreme violence, uncertainty, and the disintegration of the class system. Instead of a clear system of values and a benevolent supreme being, we have a wide range of relative values and deep agnosticism. Indeed, the twentieth century, for all its discoveries, could be called the Age of Unknowing." All of which is to say, I guess, that traditional forms (and formulaic films) have value and can still be pleasing to a wide audience. But more open-ended forms (and films) have their place as well -- and, if one is sensitive to what they have to say, these forms actually reflect our times with greater accuracy. And of course this doesn't just apply to films and poems. There are analogues for each of these forms in music, painting, sculpture ... every art form I can think of. If you don't like either type of form, that's okay. You're not alone. In particular, many people dislike the open-ended forms; some people still can't get their heads around Pollock's paintings or Barthelme's stories or Schoenberg's music. But then again, many people enjoy them. Like I said, everyone's different. You can't be prescriptive about these things. And Craig -- Tony, too -- maybe you're still not convinced, but at least I tried. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.179.159 |
To my mind, the kind of art that predictably fulfils formal and substantive expectations is fundamentally second-rate, though not lacking in enthusiasts. There is, of course, a contradiction built into that statement, in that a writer such as Robert Aickman or Fritz Leiber breaks the rules quite reliably and stylishly, so you know it's coming, so you are ready for it. There are levels of innovation and unexpectedness, and every reader or viewer has their limits. By and large, however, I'm not keen on formula-bound writing or film-making. It's tedious. Cosy, but dull. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.241.143 |
a film that goes too off tanget is actually dull. I disagree completely. I'd rather see something that goes off target and fails than yet another formulaic piece of crap. everyone's different. You can't be prescriptive about these things. That's the most sensible thing anyone has ever said on this forum. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
My favourite moment in horror cinema is when Heather screams 'OH MY GOD WHAT THE FUCK WAS THAT?' Because that's what I want the film (or story) to make me feel. I can think of a few examples, including: 'No Time Is Passing' by Robert Aickman, 'Dark Wings' by Fritz Leiber, 'Seaton's Aunt' by Walter de la Mare, 'Just Waiting' by Ramsey Campbell. All stories where I just did not know what had hit me. Craig, what about the expectation to be surprised? I expect stories to astonish and challenge me. When they don't, I lose interest. I don't understand how anyone can be interested in weird fiction and not want it to be about the unknown. What part of 'unknown' do you want to be familiar? | ||
| Niki Flynn (Niki) Username: Niki Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.32.69.29 |
David Lynch is certainly big on the weird, the unknown, unexpected and occasionally incomprehensible. But that only makes me a bigger fan. I don't need all the questions to have answers. I wouldn't want every film to be like that, but I do love the occasional journey into totally unpredictable territory. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.112.5 |
We're not talking about predictability - we're talking, I think, about a work doing what it should do. Intellectually we know were a piece should go - it's like a message conveyed between two people, a conversation. If you were talking to your wife and she suddenly started singing back all your answers you'd hate it, and be freaked, and if she suddenly vanished and never came back you'd hate that, too. I wrote a story last year and on a whim killed off my heroine, quite suddenly. I did it because I ran out of ideas where it should go, simple as that, and because it fitted a bit. I don't think Craig is talking about templates (it gets scoffed too easily anyway) he's talking about fulfilment of the story or idea. Imagine Wagner's Ring suddenly ending like an episode of Emmerdale (which might be interesting) - we would all recognise that the idea had gone wrong. This is all interesting, btw. One of my fave horror moments comes in a bad film (yes, it's bad), Dead and Buried; 'Bury me! Bury me!' | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
If you were talking to your wife and she suddenly started singing back all your answers you'd hate it, and be freaked, and if she suddenly vanished and never came back you'd hate that, too. Perhaps, but by God I'd love it in a film or a story... | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.74 |
Exactly, Zed. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.20.31.211 |
>>>Imagine Wagner's Ring suddenly ending like an episode of Emmerdale Martin Amis's John Self shows that this kind of thing can and does. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
Arthur Machen's definition of true evil: when the roses sing. Not when the vampire reveals his fangs. Not when the spook lays a clammy mitt on your shoulder. When the roses sing. Because it violates every possible expectation. There's no way you can be ready for it, or respond to it, or explain it. It's the unknown. Without that, there is no true horror. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.112.5 |
I'm not putting this across properly. I think what me and Craig are saying is that it's not events that make a story what it is, but the spiritual/intellectual 'tracks'. A story with singing roses in it - well, I think those things would fail totally without a build up (however gentle) in tone or atmosphere. For a surprise or shock to work we need to anticipate and dread it, even subliminally. But then I'm happy to 'get' this concept myself - it means I'm not a complete doink like all the rest of you guys... | ||
| Chris_morris (Chris_morris) Username: Chris_morris Registered: 04-2008 Posted From: 12.165.240.116 |
In Dobyns's terms, Tony, what you're saying relates only to traditional poetry. When you begin reading a sonnet, you're anticipating the poem to fulfill all the obligations of a sonnet. The poet may still surprise you within the range of options that a sonnet allows, but the end result will still be a sonnet. An avant-garde poet, however, deliberately does his best to frustrate your expectations. If such a poet were to attempt a sonnet, he may write something that looks nothing like a sonnet. Or, he may set up a by-the-book sonnet, one that fulfills the form's obligations -- and then "ruin" it with a final line of free verse. There are ranges of possibilities here. And of course there are examples of poor art in either form. Not everything works. But in the right hands, any form can be sublime. I don't think these things are subject to laws or rules. If it works for you, it works. If it doesn't, it doesn't. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.112.5 |
I suppose what I'm saying is, some tweaking with form and surprise doesn't shock me, it disengages me. It happens with pace, too. If the pace changes or becomes erratic I get ... bored. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
That's probably why you like rubbish films like Van Helsing. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.247.63 |
I actually agree with most of the meat of the counter-arguments here, especially from Chris and Joel. The lines quoted from the book on poetry, Chris, are amazingly accurate to the sensation I’m analyzing – dull sonnets, like those of even the better writers of that period (e.g., Spencer and Sidney) in comparison to Shakespeare’s, come off as form-bound and bland. In Shakespeare’s hands, often the sonnet staggers us… but yet never contains a line with eleven syllables. Or 11 lines of 11 syllables each. That would no longer be a sonnet. Joel, the expectation to be surprised IS an expectation. To want to be surprised, shocked, horrified by something new and tremendously gruesome/evil/unfathomable in a piece of horror fiction, sets the table. David Lynch’s name sets the table. LAKEVIEW TERRACE was so entertaining, to me, because it presented clearly and early what it purported to be, and then delivered that completely, without variation. Anyone could predict what would come next – but what would come next in terms of tension-level, the breaking-down of relationships, the anger-levels of the protagonists, etc. One could not predict the exact events however, which I won’t relate as to spoil them – that classic formula: the same, but different. I couldn’t tell you what Samuel Jackson would DO next, but I could tell you what level of f—king pissed off he was going to be next, etc. Now I had a problem with A HISTORY OF VIOLENCE for being predictable in both arenas, the general and the specific… though I admit to maybe missing much of the meat/heart of AHOV, with the consensus of praises here, so I’m determined to re-watch that one. Joel, I’m sure you appreciate and enjoy Beethoven. But do you always want to hear Beethoven? Don’t you more often want to hear (and are comforted by) a simple, predictable, less-lofty, form-bound, non-surprising, heard-it-a-zillion-times rock song?… (btw, Zed – I liked VAN HELSING a lot!!!) | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 147.252.233.47 |
I think I get what you're saying, Tony. The delicate membrane that immerses you in a work can be pierced by a sudden jolt. ? Or something. I've had that happen sometimes -- being thrown out of a piece emotionally when the intellectual train takes too sharp a corner. Sometimes, when the piece is harrowing, I've actually been glad of it. | ||
| Chris_morris (Chris_morris) Username: Chris_morris Registered: 04-2008 Posted From: 12.165.240.116 |
Tony: I'm not sure being "disengaged" is necessarily a bad reaction. Some filmmakers/artists intentionally aim for it; they're trying to "wake you up" or to be suddenly aware of your own suspension of disbelief (for artistic effect). It's a distancing strategy, a way of commenting on the story while the story occurs. ('Course, that doesn't mean you have to like it.) Joel: The Machen quote -- I love it. Do you know where that comes from -- what essay/interview/etc? I mean, I'd love to read more of Machen's opinions on that subject (and others). | ||
| Niki Flynn (Niki) Username: Niki Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.32.69.29 |
Good point, Chris. I remember being totally yanked out of "Funny Games" the first time one of the villains looked into the camera. It didn't work for me at all and it really annoyed me later when I heard Haneke preaching in the interview about how it was intended to show that I, the viewer, was complicit in the cruelty. Huh? If you turn it off at that point, does it make the rest of the film he's already shot cease to exist? I liked the movie in spite of it, though. But haven't seen the remake. | ||
| Chris_morris (Chris_morris) Username: Chris_morris Registered: 04-2008 Posted From: 12.165.240.116 |
I think Haneke's point would have been more easily swallowed if he had attached it to a more pedestrian thriller. Upon first viewing, it's difficult to see why Haneke is interested in distancing me from his movie, especially only in order to awaken me to the subversive perils of violent films. It would have been easier to be objective and critical about a banal, poorly made thriller than one as exciting and capably made as Haneke's Funny Games. That being said, I'm not sure Haneke himself even really believes his own criticism. No one who likes Pulp Fiction, Salo and Psycho -- films Haneke has admitted appreciating -- can really dislike violence in film, right? Maybe he just dislikes violence in bad films. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.241.143 |
Chris - the Machen quote is from the White People (unless I've misremembered). Re: Haneke, I absolutely love that moment in Funny Games. For me, it's one of the great movie moments - beaten by the famous rewind sequence in the same film. I love that kind of "fuck-you" approach to art. It almost dares you to like and defend it. No one who likes Pulp Fiction, Salo and Psycho -- films Haneke has admitted appreciating -- can really dislike violence in film, right? Perhaps Haneke is just as contradictory as the rest of us. After all, it's an important part of the human condition, and part of what makes us even vaguely interesting... | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.5.254 |
If I had to guess about the rewind sequence, Haenke's breaking the fourth wall in a different way: he's forcing the audience to choose to turn away from the film, to actually shut out the film - the opposite of what any artist does initially, which is try to draw the experiencer into the art. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.241.143 |
Nah, he's just having a laugh and fucking with us.  | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.188.175 |
Zed – yes, 'The White People'. And although I love that quote, I wish it had been separate from the story and the prologue had been shorter and more factual. Too many otherwise brilliant Machen stories are framed in wooden dialogues whereby Two High Church Queens Talk About Spiritual Things. Weird fiction should never furnish its own built-in commentary. Craig, I don't appreciate Beethoven, though not as dramatically as I don't appreciate Wagner. I like Debussy and Rachmaninov, but I'm not a classical music person at all. However, if we switch genres and ask, would I rather listen to James Last or Acker Bilk than John Coltrane or Thelonius Monk, I'm afraid the answer is no. Talent and individuality speak louder than sentiment and conventionalism, no matter how small or repeated the dose. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.241.143 |
Too many otherwise brilliant Machen stories are framed in wooden dialogues whereby Two High Church Queens Talk About Spiritual Things. I've thought this, too. It almost spoils the effect doesn't it? | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 89.19.82.72 |
Proto, everybody ignores what you say. Never mind, though, eh? | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.241.143 |
Who said that? | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 89.19.82.72 |
Jostle is an odd word. Jostling should replace boxing. Nobody's ever had their head jostled in. Sorry, what's the topic? [scroll up] My Bloody Valentine. Never saw it. It's raining blood, fish and tiny wooden crosses in my part of the world. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.112.5 |
You see, I knew how Funny Games was going to be from the titles. It didn't surprise me at all. It was all there, table set. Disengagement means I've gone, flicking channels, off to make a drink. It doesn't really mean I've woken up to something as such. I get what you're doing Proto. Heh. I'm in a really prickly mood today - been moving house after only a weeks notice and it's HORRIBLE. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.5.217 |
I hope my ignorance doesn't speak its usual volumes, Joel, but... what about Joy Division? I'm barely familiar with them, but I'm assuming their work might be considered "simple, predictable, less-lofty, form-bound, non-surprising, heard-it-a-zillion-times rock song" to you.... I apologize if I analogized incorrectly, but maybe you understand where I'm aiming this question.... Even if the meals were always amazing, one wonders if one could forever have a waiter bring a covered dish to the table for dinner. At some point, probably sooner rather than later, wouldn't someone prefer KNOWING what's for dinner?.... | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.5.217 |
I'm trying to think of movies, Proto, that have deliberately thrown a true, unannounced, genre-breaking left-turn into the mix, but I'm stumped... the only piece of work of any kind that has done this for me, that comes to memory, is Shakespeare's "Love's Labor's Lost." Um... wow, I'd have to really scrounge among the brain-cells on this one.... | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 89.19.82.72 |
What'm (is that a valid abbreviation) I doing, Tony? Bummer on the moving, by the way. Stressful stuff. Best to think of yourself as a snail, house on back -- surround yourself by a few familiar items and you'll soon settle in. Just like a hotel room can feel homey after a few days. | ||
| Chris_morris (Chris_morris) Username: Chris_morris Registered: 04-2008 Posted From: 69.245.202.240 |
Re: Machen -- thanks, Zed, Joel. A pity I didn't recognize it: I've read "The White People." Must have forgotten the quote. (I admit, though, I was sort of hoping for an essay.) Craig: I don't think anyone can avoid watching a traditional film now and again, or listening to a verse-chorus-verse pop song, if only because they're so ubiquitous. It doesn't mean you have to prefer them, though. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.241.143 |
I'm trying to think of movies, Proto, that have deliberately thrown a true, unannounced, genre-breaking left-turn into the mix How about AUDITION? The first half is a light romantic comedy, then it swerves and becomes one of the most disturbing, surreal and melon-twisting films I've ever experienced. It blew me away, left me reeling. I was actually scared to watch it again for ages because it did such strange things to my head. I do enjoy predictable films in a turn-your-brian-off-and -chill kind of way, but if I want to watch something worthwhile I'll put on something that hopefully defies expectations and pushes the envelope a bitand makes me fucking think. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.241.143 |
I'm trying to think of movies, Proto, that have deliberately thrown a true, unannounced, genre-breaking left-turn into the mix How about AUDITION? The first half is a light romantic comedy, then it swerves and becomes one of the most disturbing, surreal and melon-twisting films I've ever experienced. It blew me away, left me reeling. I was actually scared to watch it again for ages because it did such strange things to my head. I do enjoy predictable films in a turn-your-brian-off-and -chill kind of way, but if I want to watch something worthwhile I'll put on something that hopefully defies expectations and pushes the envelope a bit and makes me fucking think. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.203.74 |
'I hope my ignorance doesn't speak its usual volumes, Joel, but... what about Joy Division? I'm barely familiar with them, but I'm assuming their work might be considered "simple, predictable, less-lofty, form-bound, non-surprising, heard-it-a-zillion-times rock song" to you...' In a word, no. | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.190.15 |
Damned right, no! All I can say is that I'm glad I'm able to appreciate and be affected by unpredictable, innovative stories (whatever the format). If I wasn't, I'd be a damn sight poorer for it, and would have to give away some of my favourite books and DVDs! In the end, surely it's not whether a story is jarringly unpredictable or familiar and formulaic, but the quality of the work itself that really matters? Regarding Machen, he didn't just say that the roses in one's garden breaking out into a weird song is the very definition of sin, but also cats and dogs speaking and disputing with us in human accents, and stones swelling and sprouting blossoms before our eyes (and I bet more examples could be found within his writings). I agree that the main story itself ('The Green Book') could have done without that prologue, which I think may have been better suited to one of Machen's collections of musings such as Dreads and Drolls, or perhaps worked into the framing device of a longer book such as The Three Imposters. But Machen is one of my very favourite writers, despite his occasional flaws, and even his minor writing outshines the vast majority of stuff I come across these days. Even his blandest pieces often contain little nuggets of gold, and at his peak he had no equal, I think. Lastly: Van Helsing? The Hitcher remake? No, a thousand times no! | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.16.86.247 |
In a word, no. Okay, fair enough. I think I should have listened to Tony, and not bothered commenting further... not that disagreements are arising, but I fear I'm not being understood clearly. Which is the sign not of poor reading, but unclear writing. Zed, believe it or not, AUDITION did leap to mind, but I discarded it as an example, because - correct me if I'm wrong - virtually everyone whose seen it, myself included, knew it was horror/thriller already, going in - no one actually went to see it AS a comedy, because it didn't advertise itself as a comedy. It comes close to an example, but doesn't, to me, quite hit the target. (I was more surprised by the comedy than the horror!) I'm all for surprising artistic experiences! Like I said, I recently saw for the first time RUNNING ON EMPTY, and only saw it as research for a project I was working on - I fully expected a light-ish thriller romp, much like the strangely similar River film that preceded it, LITTLE NIKITA. Boy, was I ever surprised by what I got! And I loved what I got! But it was merely a mis-taking what I was going to get - once I figured out the [form-that-dare-not-speak-its-name], I was able to relax into it, and let the film do its thing.... Btw: Shakespeare's play worked for me too - and yet it violated the rule I seem to think is inviolable. What's odd to me is not that there is such a violate-able potential... but that - though I find myself in the minority here, yet scouring my memory as I do - so few dramatic presentations actually DO violate it.... | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.16.86.247 |
Hey, I'm not going to marry VAN HELSING or the remake of THE HITCHER, Huw.... And a "thousand times no" is too many, surely - 126, or 127 max.... "The White People" is a fantastic story, and I almost think its extreme length and tediousness - the sheer pain it gives the eyeballs in reading that much text upon the page - like a long Buddhist parable, working off its very repetitions and effort - works ultimately to its advantage. I defy anyone to read it, and not be deeply chilled, and disturbed.... | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.241.143 |
Craig, your original point has now become so muddied through this debate that I've lost sight of it. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.255.215 |
Best of luck with the move, Tony. Proto's right that you need to prioritise a few things that immediately bring comfort and familiarity. Back in the late 1980s, when I moved home six times in three years, I had a fixed ritual: the first thing I would unpack was the record player, and I would play the same album (Dylan's BLOOD ON THE TRACKS) while unpacking the kettle and making coffee. Next up, some books. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.255.215 |
Huw, I don't think any other weird fiction writer is quite as brilliant or original as Machen at his best. And while some other writers have been more influential overall, those influenced strongly by Machen (including Lovecraft, T.E.D. Klein and M. John Harrison) have been serious innovators themselves. He gets you into the habit of dreaming impossible things. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.255.215 |
Joy Division need their own thread. Their own forum. Their own internet. Their own world. Their own cosmos. Now there's a story idea... Oh no. See what you've done. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.219.239 |
Why is everyone talking about me? Drives me mad, that. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.244.224 |
Nah, it's not worth dredging back up, Zed.... I see there's been but one feature-length movie made of Arthur Machen's work, THE SKELETON OF MRS. MORALES (El Esqueleto de la señora Morales, 1960). A "black comedy" it's described as.... Is it any good, Mr. Probert? | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.112.5 |
I have an example! Attack of the Clones. You all know I like Star Wars but this one had a flaw or two I hated. The key one was just after Annakin kills all those sandpeople and his mum dies. Suddenly he's all chirpy again, quite perky even while fighting in that arena. The whole tone of this scene is entierly wrong, and is not progressing the story as it was originally being told. I think it's this sort of thing me and Craig are talking about. The film, after this glitch, has a LOT of work before it gets back on track (it doesn't for me, at least not till Sith...). This isn't an opportunity for folk to diss SW, but to get across this infuriating point, which is, I bet folk don't like this change in tone, this detour into almost another kind of film. You see, going by some of the above opinions it would seem to me that some of you might *like* this change in direction, but I bet you don't. It's just bad direction me and Craig are talking about, not 'surprises'. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.230.38 |
Great example, Tony! And another, dove-tailing off myself, might be an actually oft-remarked-on, quite famous "change in direction" that throws off the tone of the whole piece - the Porter scene in "Macbeth." Oft-noted, because quite jarring, and to many, unsatisfyingly so.... | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.177.22 |
It's okay for what it is, Craig. It's based on 'The Islington Mystery', a lesser Machen piece. I think hints of Machen can be found in a number of films, such as Picnic at Hanging Rock and certain of Guillermo Del Toro's films. And, of course, the 'Angels of Mons' legend pops up here and there in the movies. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.241.143 |
Tony, what you're talking about there is simply bad filmmaking. As far as I understand this debate, Craig means films that veer in tone deliberately. Yes? Here's a thought: a lot of Asian films seem to have unbalanced tone, because we western audiences are trained to watch films in a certain way. | ||
| John Llewellyn Probert (John_l_probert) Username: John_l_probert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 90.199.0.20 |
Just over 100 posts in on this thread and I've finally seen the film in question. I was never a big fan of the slasher genre in the 80s because a lot of them seemed to consist of, to quote Leslie Halliwell 'short sharp shocks punctuating slabs of tedium'. I will agree however that the orginal My Bloody Valentine is a bit better than most, and while not up there with Halloween it's more atmospheric than most and a lot more fun than the Friday the 13ths. As well as the murders, which are still pretty effective all these years later, there's a deliciously rich sense of bleakness about the small mining town in which the plot takes place. Small town horror was big in the early 80s - Dead & Buried is another weird film that takes place in a grim dead-end nowhere. And the ending didn't have to be that weird so the fact that it is earns the film extra points as well. Bad points? Well the look of horror on peoples' faces whenever a chocolate box turns up teeters dangerously on the hilarious, and the male lead has to be the campest example of this type to be seen in the subgenre. Finally the stuff that wil only be of interest to me & I don't care: it's interesting to see what the Cinepix team of Dunning & Link (and editor Jean LaFleur) did after their Cronenberg pictures. Of course the biggest shock in the whole movie for me was in the end titles when I saw that Montag the Magician directed the second unit. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.212.33 |
"Here's a thought: a lot of Asian films seem to have unbalanced tone, because we western audiences are trained to watch films in a certain way." Good thought! | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.241.143 |
I do have them occasionally, Proto. Very occasionally. But they usually involve dead things.  | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.212.33 |
That extends to music, too. The Asian musical scale is different from the Western one because blub glub splutter no more info on this Anyone know the details? | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.177.22 |
Zed has a point, though. Take The Host, for example: it veers from monster movie to drama to comedy, and does so quite successfully, in my view, but I know more than a few people who just didn't seem to 'get' it, because they felt it was disjointed and didn't live up to what they'd expected, which was presumably something less demanding and thoughtful, like (say) Jurassic Park or Transformers. I've known people who can't 'get' Memories of Murder or A Tale of Two Sisters - both beautiful, masterful, intricate films - simply because they were expecting something more Hollywoodish (for want of a better term); their mindset was such that they hadn't the patience to watch a complex and thought-provoking film about a serial killer, or about mental illness and the supernatural. Some people just don't seem to be capable of being receptive to anything unfamiliar. I've even known people who'll lose interest in a film as soon as they realise it's subtitled. It's a shame, and a loss for them, I think. | ||
| Simon Bestwick (Simon_b) Username: Simon_b Registered: 10-2008 Posted From: 86.24.165.182 |
Zed, Huw- I agree. I loved 'The Host', but it wasn't the film I expected, and I don't have a problem with that. At the end of the day, it's not so much your immediate reaction to a piece of art as your lasting impression. Edward Bond once said that it wasn't so much what an audience thought the night they saw a play that mattered, as what they thought six months later. I remember watching the film 'Hardware'- I thought I knew the kind of film I'd be getting there, and I went away not sure if I liked it, because- yes, Craig- it hadn't met my expectations. And yet... there was something about the film that stayed with me. And so I went back. I'm not about to claim that 'Hardware' is a flawless classic of cinema. It's not. It's flawed, and distinctly ropey in places. But it's a film made with intelligence and passion- and most of all, in pursuit of a personal vision. Richard Stanley had something to say with that film, and he could not have said it if he'd made a film that conformed to the expectations the audience might have had. It would be like trying to sculpt marble with a brush and paint. They're fine for painting pictures, but if you want to sculpt, you use a hammer and chisel (carefully.) But you go back to films like this, when they're done well, with different expectations, looking for different things. Which enables you to process something like 'Dust Devil', a genuine masterpiece from the same director. The more films you watch, and the more you're willing to give something a chance when it doesn't do what you expect, then the wider your ABILITY to appreciate films (or books, or plays, or whatever) gets. It makes life a lot more fun, and if you're an artist of any kind yourself, it's a good thing for you too. That's my two penn'orth, anyway. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.241.143 |
Erm, isn't that exactly what Huw and I have been saying all along? Craig - have you seen any of Fassbinber's films? I'm thinking specifically of his weird homoerotic gangster films. They are simply extraordinary: genuinely unique. It takes you 2 or 3 of them to get into the beat, the temp, and even then they mes with your head and your emotions in ways you cannot even begin to fathom. Thinking about it, these are possibly the strangest films I've ever seen. | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.177.22 |
I don't think I've seen these, Zed - I'll have to look for them. Simon, I feel the same way about Richard Stanley's films. They are flawed, but very interesting - as you said, his vision and integrity makes them so, despite any technical limitations. Have you (or Zed, of course) got the 5-disc Dust Devil DVD set? As well as the main title it contains several of his documentaries, ranging in topic from Afghanistan to the role of the occult in Nazi Germany and Haitian religious life. Stanley wrote a good review of an Arthur Machen collection (Ritual and Other Stories, if I'm not misremembering), so he's obviously familiar with at least some great weird fiction. I wish more horror directors were! | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.112.5 |
'That's just bad filmmaking' Exactly! It just puzzles me why in one film it's bad filmmaking and in another it's 'interesting'. I've seen a Tale of Two Sisters and The Host and while I liked elements of both I'm in no hurry to watch them again simply because I cannot engage with them - they *feel* like they're sloppily cut or put together (less so with Host, which for me I might add was quite Spielbergian). It's got nothing to do with my problems with their being interesting or messing with my mind - it's to do with keeping me involved with them, or my wanting to be involved. I work hard watching my movies (I watched the whole of Brown Bunny) but I want to feel like the director is too. I'm increasingly in the belief that yes, this is a personal viewpoint, but it always niggles me that in life there must be a right and wrong! | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.177.22 |
I said before that A Tale of Two Sisters is a masterful, beautiful and intricate film, and I stand by that. It is quite a complex film, but I can't think of anything about it that is sloppy, whether the writing, direction, acting, music or cinematography - it's all near perfect, in my view. I suppose this is where 'taste' comes into play again... | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
I'm with Huw. The film is magnificent. As is The Host. I ahve that Dus Devil set - I'ma long time fan of the film. It just puzzles me why in one film it's bad filmmaking and in another it's 'interesting'. To simplify it: in one it's incompetance; in the other it's deliberate and done with skill. That's the difference. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.112.5 |
It might just have been the scare scenes that put me off, and they felt fluffed to me, or familiar. Maybe I should give it another go. To go back to The Innocents. I think that film is quite a 'different' and 'interesting' and 'surprising' film, but you feel held by it as if in a thrall - it flows like a lazy unbroken river. This is what I always hope for from a film - a spell that is sustained, where I forget I am watching and not frequently reminded. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.112.5 |
But that's where we agree! Me and Craig - I think - are talking about bad filmmaking!  | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.112.5 |
To focus on a remark I made; 'The film, after this glitch, has a LOT of work before it gets back on track (it doesn't for me, at least not till Sith...).' This is why some of these films feel so bumpy. You are pulled OUT of the film and it has to win you back, if it ever can. It's fucking infuriating. I need to trust my films to keep my interest - if I lose trust I don't feel challenged, I feel like I'm wasting my time, and worse have wasted it up to that point. I want the film to be the film I started watching , surprises and challenges and all. Does it feel like I don't like challenge, or surprise? This isn't the case - I just like consistency of vision. | ||
| John Llewellyn Probert (John_l_probert) Username: John_l_probert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.47 |
"To simplify it: in one it's incompetance; in the other it's deliberate and done with skill. That's the difference." And isn't it fun when you're not quite sure which it is? Which is one of the reasons so many low-budget little horror oddities are so enjoyable to watch | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 212.121.214.11 |
The first 2 Spiderman films deliver everything you expect from a Spiderman film. they are great films because they're well made, well directed, well paced and look awesome (the odd surprise - who else would have cast Alfred Molina as Doc Oc?) Ang Lee's Hulk delivers everything you expect from a hulk film but it doesn't work because it's badly paced and Hulk looks more like Shrek on steroids. Both films fill very similar templates (squish) to perfection but one works so much better than the other due to the quality of the film making (and personal taste of the viewer) | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 212.121.214.11 |
I avoided mention of Spidey 3 because I thought it was too cluttered. Venom deserved his own film as sole villain and shouldn't have shared it with Sandman and the Goblin. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
I prefer Lee's HULK to the Spiderman films (which I also like), precisely because of its flaws - it's ambitious and tries something slightly unconventional. I'll take a flawed yet ambitious film over a well-made by-the-numbers film any day of the week. | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 61.216.33.191 |
Sometimes a well-made by-the-numbers movie is all I want, but by and large I'm with you there, Zed: I'd go with flawed but ambitious. Give me a choice between, say, Cronenberg's Naked Lunch and any of the various Freddy/Jason films, and I know which one I'd rather be stuck with on a desert island. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.74 |
A few things films presumably shouldn't do: A character in a Western walks up to the camera while addressing the audience. In the middle of a social drama, a song on the soundtrack proves to be sung by one of the main characters but accompanied by the soundtrack orchestra. The headmaster at a public school (in a generally realistic film) turns out to keep the chaplain in a filing cabinet. A inmate in a realistic prison film keeps commenting on the action by singing calypsos while playing a guitar. | ||
| Mick Curtis (Mick) Username: Mick Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.157.95.52 |
To be honest sometimes I'm less interested in a film once it's laid itself out and shown its genre. I love being thrown by art; sometimes it works, sometimes not, but I still appreaciate the effort. Ramsey, don't recognise that last one - what's the title? | ||
| Gcw (Gcw) Username: Gcw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.151.125.7 |
Jailhouse Rock? gcw | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.247.71 |
I don’t recognize any of those films, Ramsey….. But they all sound intriguing. In Robert Altman’s THE LONG GOODBYE, you have the same theme song played everywhere in the movie – in muzak when he goes to the supermarket, lazily on the piano when he goes to a seedy bar, etc. But there’s a consistently “silly” tone to that pitch-black film: Eliot Gould is a sort of Shakespearean fool, and he plays against the dark foolishness of Sterling Hayden. Nothing in this film is quite real, or realistic: it’s a sort of drug-soaked perspective of So Cal in the early 70’s, with a wry grin. But Altman sets this table early, and delivers. He even sets up (like the best writers do) the seeds of ultimate “darkness” (i.e., they don’t later, then, appear arbitrary), so that when Gould finally emerges from his “Fool-ishness,” it’s a jarring, terrible moment – probably because that A(B?)-story that lurks at the core of this film, is itself dark and terrible, and we know throughout (like Gould does) that at some point we will have to come to terms with it. I’m 3/4’s of the way through TROPIC THUNDER – ha! What an amazing film so far! A total unswerving in-character parody of action films, of Hollywood filmmaking, of Hollwood assholes, of Hollywood…. It delivers consistently, and yet it never fails, in scene after scene, to surprise me. Once you think you’ve gotten an angle on it, it tips your expectations, but stays consistent with the template. (Mr. Probert in particular, if you haven’t seen this?… knowing you have the same wickedly perverse and gruesome sense of humor I do?… oh, will you love this film….) I sure hope the last 1/4 doesn’t ruin everything. “Consistency of vision” – Tony says it pithily and best. I’m at this point just a pale echoer of Tony’s excellent perspective on this. (Zed, no, I’ve not seen Fassbinder’s films you mention, but I will…. Did he do those two horror films, about the Wendigo, and THE LAST WINTER? I saw both of those. TLW did, actually, I think, screw up its template in just the ways we are discussing here, but it did it in a poor way, that took me out of the film – it’s a film that is so good on so many levels; and yet so painfully, for its missteps, “amateur” (for lack of a better term at the moment)…. Have you seen TLW, Tony?) | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 212.121.214.11 |
The only one of those films I'm sure of is If.... | ||
| Chris_morris (Chris_morris) Username: Chris_morris Registered: 04-2008 Posted From: 12.165.240.116 |
Is that last film Shock Corridor? | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.21.234.33 |
"The headmaster at a public school (in a generally realistic film) turns out to keep the chaplain in a filing cabinet." I've always wondered what Anderson meant by that. It's a very Pythonesque moment. | ||
| Mick Curtis (Mick) Username: Mick Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.157.91.133 |
Presumed the third was If.... - and that the second was PENNIES FROM HEAVEN, and had the title of the first earlier, but my alcohol-and-age befuddled brain has run away with the answer. | ||
| Mick Curtis (Mick) Username: Mick Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.157.91.133 |
That should probably be "alcohol- and age-befuddled...". Or not. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.241.143 |
Craig, you're talking about Larry Fessenden. And once again I disagree with you.Both WENDIGO and THE LAST WINTER are among the best American horror films of the past couple of decades. He's an original talent, that fella. I'm talking about Rainer Werner Fassbinder, the late German filmmaker: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainer_Werner_Fassbinder | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.241.143 |
In the middle of a social drama, a song on the soundtrack proves to be sung by one of the main characters but accompanied by the soundtrack orchestra. That's got to be MAGNOLIA. My favourite moment in a brilliant, brilliant film. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.241.143 |
Don't watch this if you have any intention of watching the film, but THE AMERICAN SOLDIER has the greatest ending of all time: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qv_ZFUiu7OQ&feature=PlayList&p=AA089BC90F01539C&p laynext=1&index=4 I can't even begin to describe my emotional response to this scene ... | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.237.14 |
Ha! No, it delivered. TROPIC THUNDER, maybe one of the best films of the year. I can't believe the critics chided it for (when I read the reviews) fading away into a typical action movie - uh, no: every shot, every scene, is pure parody/comedy. It gets BETTER as it goes along! Best cameos of the year, hands down. Ben Stiller at the top of his game, maybe nonpareil (i.e., as actor, co-writer, and director). The controversial scenes?... Nope, again, the movie wasn't poking fun at the mentally challenged - unless you mean brain-dead Hollywood actors. Definitely a must-see.... | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 61.216.33.191 |
Craig, I hate to say this, my friend, but..... I agree with you! I loved Tropic Thunder. It wasn't perfect, but there were some really classic, hilarious scenes in it, especially from Robert Downey Jr's character(s). Have you listened to the audio-commentary (in which Downey remains in character right up until the end)? It's brilliant. | ||
| John Llewellyn Probert (John_l_probert) Username: John_l_probert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 90.203.130.61 |
Craig & Huw - I saw Tropic Thunder au cinema and loved the start but thought it deteriorated very quickly. Maybe it needs a rewatch on the basis of both of you thinking highly of this one! | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.245.133 |
Do, John, I think you might appreciate it better. I love how the film keeps bottoming-out your expectations; which, dove-tailing on our already-tangential subject, is a proper disturbing of the t--------... but then, satire is supposed to do that, so there, the t------- again. This is Ben Stiller's bread-and-butter, parody. Anyone remember the short-lived, early 90's "The Ben Stiller Show"?... "Manson! Manson!" - ha! The guy's been stuck in too many bad comedies - and thankfully past that brief spell (years back) when he imagined himself going serious - and come into his own....ZOOLANDER was good, but TT is very good indeed.... | ||
| Adriana (Adriana) Username: Adriana Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.230.239.233 |
I have so much to say on all this, that I think it best I say nothing at all.. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.239.57 |
Agreed.  | ||
| Adriana (Adriana) Username: Adriana Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.230.239.233 |
I will say this though - I wasn't a big fan of IN BRUGES (which I just watched last night). The fact that it's nominated for best screenplay, half surprises me, and half really doesn't. Thing is, In My Humble Opinion, it felt like nothing more then a dressed up formula film. Take certain ingredients you know everyone wants (and that these films require) then throw in some quirky, unexpected dialog, plus a rich, fresh location and wammo. Sure sell. I'll admit it's well executed. And sure, in places it's entertaining for sure. But at the end of the day, it's still hugely derivative and ultimately boring for me. Still, I wouldn't tell someone NOT to see it. I just wouldn't recommend it. But at the end of the day, for what it is, I recognize that it's a good achievement. I also get that some people really love these films formula or not... Anyway, the whole "for what it is" qualifier brings up a whole other side of the issues... which, while an important part of the bigger equation, is something I won't get into in this post... | ||
| Richard_gavin (Richard_gavin) Username: Richard_gavin Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 65.110.174.71 |
Adriana wrote: "But at the end of the day, it's still hugely derivative and ultimately boring for me." And: "Anyway, the whole "for what it is" qualifier brings up a whole other side of the issues... which, while an important part of the bigger equation, is something I won't get into in this post..." I see exactly where you're coming from with these two points, Adriana. I have too many thoughts on this to start posting here, that's why I've stayed mum for the latter portion of this thread. If I start typing up my opinions on potent art and cosy entertainment, I'd not get any fiction written this week. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.7.39 |
A car with no wheels is not a car - for what it is, it's a giant radio. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 212.121.214.11 |
A car with no wheels is still a shelter against the rain. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.246.107 |
... And a shelter against the rain is like a man from Leeds, who filled his garden full of seeds.... | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.226.101 |
Hearkening back to Niki's original reason for posting, this seemed like as good a place as any to say.... I was amazed to open up my Entertainment Weekly today, to discover - Argento's FOUR FLIES ON GREY VELVET has finally been released to dvd! Imagine my shock - I've been waiting a long, long time for this last one to appear. A reason for joy to some here... and not so, I know, for others.... | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.226.101 |
Whoops - one more week, 2/24. Still.... | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.195.121 |
Craig, I was disappointed by Four Flies on Grey Velvet. It's good that it's finally available on disc, though. I remember tracking down Argento's films on VHS back in the eighties, and this was the one that nobody could ever find - even scratchy old bootleg copies that were barely watchable were hard to come by. Hunting down elusive books and films was much harder in the old days, but also a lot more fun (anyone who has spent long hours haunting dusty old secondhand bookshops in the hope that that ultra-rare copy of Machen or Lovecraft or Blackwood will suddenly materialise will know what I mean). The internet has made a lot more available to us but it's also killed a good part of the thrill and adventure of the hunt, I think, and that's a sad thing (for geeks like me, anyway)... | ||
| Niki Flynn (Niki) Username: Niki Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.32.69.29 |
But a decidedly Happy Thing for instant gratification freaks like me. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.252.156 |
Yeah, baby! I rented the remake of MY BLOODY VALENTINE, and it's sheer bliss. Everything you want in a slasher flick, and more - gore gore gore gore gore, and lots of nudity. Comic book superhero movies take place in their own universe with their own special rules/quirks - you accept them, silliness and all, or there's no point seeing them in the first place. The same with the "slasher" flick - and MVB's exuberantly over the top, reveling in the genre, wallowing and luxuriating in the sheer madness of it all. It takes itself less seriously than, the last one I've seen to compare it to - COLD PREY - and by doing so, sorry (and imho), exceeds it. MBV knows what it is, and so, just goes full throttle being that: it carries itself to a certain level of loopiness, even informing the audience right off the bat, within the first 5 minutes - this is the world of "Twisted Tales," of childishly devilish glee. MVB's the cartoony end of the horror spectrum (non-self-parody/satire/comedy, that is), and it knows it. Nietzsche said - something to the effect, paraphrasing - that one should exhaust one's self from excess, never from dearth. That, in a nutshell, is this remake of MY BLOODY VALENTINE. See it in non-3D first, so you'll want to see it again in 3D. | ||
| Niki Flynn (Niki) Username: Niki Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.32.69.29 |
There's a thesis in there, Craig - Nietzsche and the Slasher Film: Also Sprach Friedrich Krüger. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.1.151 |
Tagline: "God is dead - and you're next!" | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.47 |
Hasn't Mel gibson already copyrighted that for Passion of the Christ II? | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.251.209 |
Speaking of slasher-flicks: I just saw an old one that I musta missed the first time around - RETURN TO HORROR HIGH (1986), featuring (in a cameo) a cheesball-young George Clooney. It's not good, really, but it had a creative verve to it: a film within a film within a film, and your perspective keeps getting upended all the way through - too bad it made little sense by the end. But what I found fascinating, was discovering how much SCREAM seemed to rob from this film - including the masked killer itself, which was exactly the same in appearance as the later film (down to the mask, only a bend or two off). RTHH tried to be a self-referential, satirical poke at slasher flicks, but coming still within their arc - SCREAM was just outside it, I guess - but for SCREAM to steal so blatantly from this flick, betrays a strange sort of infection of influence. SCREAM now seems (in retrospect) more obsessed by the silly and forgettable RTHH; than wanting to remake/reassess the genre itself, which it became legendary for supposedly doing.... A dull observation, decades too late.... | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.26.90.161 |
I watched the remake of MBV last night: it was shite. I watched Tropic Thunder the other week: it was shite. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.148.248.62 |
Yes! Tropic Thunder was really flat. It BEHAVED like a good comedy film. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.26.90.161 |
One joke repeated 12,564 times. And it wasn't even a funny one. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.248.209 |
This just goes to show how it takes all kinds to make a world.... MBV was delicious shite - when I'm choosing to eat shite, I want it to be delicious. Anyone who went into MBV thinking s/he was getting anything other than a kind of shite, is fooling him or herself.... TROPIC THUNDER I thought a brilliant parody, the best of the year. "Of the year," though, is just that, of the year: time will tell if it has a shelf-life. What was the "one joke" repeated 12,564 times? I honestly don't know what you're talking about.... | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.199.39 |
"What was the "one joke" repeated 12,564 times? I honestly don't know what you're talking about...." Perhaps it was all the shouting. I just wanted the shouting to stop. To be fair, I think the characters had one joke each, which they repeated 12,000+ times. | ||
| Stephen Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 82.4.20.22 |
Anyone here seen 'Stage Fright' (1987) by Michele Soavi? Probably my fav slasher movie. In fact I rank all his horror films very highly. Wonder whatever happened to him? | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.251.172 |
I really liked STAGE FRIGHT too....  Arguably, the best owl-headed killer movie ever. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.251.172 |
I was gonna shows you the owl head, but oh well - hey, Gary, what's wrong with your stupid website? It says to contact you - that's been twice - you're killing me here, Gary!... | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.148.248.62 |
Oh, there are much better owl-headed killer movies than that one. I can name - | ||
| Stephen Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 82.4.20.22 |
This the chap? Seems to be taking a breather...  | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.26.90.161 |
One joke? This is all real but we think it's fiction. Actually, I really dislike silly comedies that have a proper plot. Like the Bean movies or Police Academy. In my view, a silly comedy should end like Python's Holy Grail: sillily. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.214.220 |
That was the problem with the last ep of PSYCHOVILLE -- who cares about all that plot? Certainly not the writers who largely made it up as they went along. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.214.220 |
Speaking of silliness... This will show me in a bad light, but I only just now figured out why the stairs on the landing of Fawlty Towers are so strange. They go up too far, then down to reach the landing. I assumed it was some sort of joke on the title of the programme, but seeing the same thing in an episode of Father Ted told me otherwise. The explanation is SO simple that it doesn't even count as a puzzle. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.234.131 |
One joke? This is all real but we think it's fiction. Uh... did you watch the whole film, Gary?... Because that is a joke for the first part, and then the actors figure out it's all happening for real - it happens before the halfway point at least. The movie vaults far beyond that one joke. Many of the critics, in fact, lamented the fact that that one joke didn't continue - I disagree. I think the movie is a total parody of so many genres and films, it's hard to keep track. Ben Stiller can be brilliant, and he wrote, directed, and acted in this - this is his baby. He's long since gone and been a straight-man order-taker in the many comedies he's been in, but those who can remember him in his own show, "The Ben Stiller Show"... the guy's a one-man Monty Python, when he wants to be.... | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.26.90.161 |
If you say so. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.208.208 |
I might take your point more seriously had you not written it in blood.  | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.208.208 |
 | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.19.178 |
I like Stiller. I liked much of Tropic Thunder, it just 'felt' bloated. I do however, cherish the line; 'I farm LEAD motherfuckers!' | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.247.205 |
?!? I hope my Monty Python comment didn't offend you - though I was trying to be provocative with it - realizing how sacred the troupe is to the Brits.... | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.247.205 |
Is/was there TiVO in Britain...? | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 147.252.230.126 |
No, no offence, but Calling an Irishman British isn't a good idea! | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.252.247 |
Calling an Irishman British isn't a good idea! It's hard keeping track of all of you - how about if I just from now on say, "you islanders"? | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 147.252.230.126 |
No problem. How are things in the colonies? | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.47 |
Not so great since the inbreeding started, from what I hear. Good places to stay away from... | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.252.247 |
Yeah, Weber, stay away - stay safely snug on your little island where for centuries they've taken all the inbreeders and PUT CROWNS ON THEIR HEADS!!! | ||
| Stephen Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.72.14.113 |
Hey Protodroid, so you're a fellow Irishman? And here was me thinking you were manufactured somewhere like Japan! Fancy a pint of the black stuff after work? | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 147.252.230.126 |
Fancy a pint of the black stuff after work? Oil yout mean? So you'll have heard about the bridge collapse that resulted in me taking 1 train, 3 buses and 2 hours to get to my desk today. Bloody Irish builders. | ||
| Stephen Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.72.14.113 |
I'm guessing Dublin then lol. What is it down there for a pint of Guinness now? Something like £5.50 I bet. Afraid I'm an Irishman from a wee bit further North than that... ever been to the Shaft? | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 147.252.230.126 |
I don't drink Guinness, so couldn't tell you. I don't get out that much... | ||
| Stephen Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.72.14.113 |
If I lived in Dublin these days I wouldn't be getting out much myself. Belfast ain't far behind though... I blame all these ruddy tourists. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 147.252.230.126 |
The Dublin-Belfast line is the most important one in the country. And it's all broke! | ||
| Stephen Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 82.4.20.22 |
I used to go down to Dublin several times a year Proto, but since things got so insanely expensive down there it's actually a lot cheaper to pop over to Glasgow for the day now! While Belfast is always chock full of Southerners up bargain hunting. Crazy... |