| Author | Message | ||
     Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.242.126 |
I treat myself to the DVD of the BBC adaptation of Alan Garner's THE OWL SERVICE and watched it alone in the dark over a few evenings just before Christmas. I hadn't seen this since I was a child, and my hazy memories of it are so treasured that I approached it with caution, afraid that it wouldn't live up to those vague boyhood recollections. I needn't have been so cautious. Wow. It was brilliant: dark, edgy, genuinely scary, risk-taking television, and it was a bloody kids' show! Yes, some of the acting was a bit theatrical, but the whole thing has such a powerful sense of impending doom and ancient menace. The final episode had me gripped, and actually creeped me out to the extent that I had to watch a few minutes of something light before going to bed.  | ||
| Steve Bacon (Stevebacon) Username: Stevebacon Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 90.213.27.228 |
I've never seen this (although I have the book). I didn't realise it was genre. I always assumed it was something to do with spies, for some reason. I love The Weirdstone of Brisingamen. We read it at school and it affected me profoundly. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.242.126 |
Yeah, Garner was one of my favourites as a child. I absolutely loved ELIDOR. THE OWL SERVICE is on play.com for about a tenner. A wise investment... | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.244.94 |
RED SHIFT had a massive impact on me in my teens. I think it did on Chris Kenworthy as well. It's the greatest of all miserablist novels. The last line is chokingly brilliant. And there's not a single unnecessary word anywhere. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.0.112.152 |
Elidor was great. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.74 |
"I've never seen this (although I have the book). I didn't realise it was genre. I always assumed it was something to do with spies, for some reason." Isn't spy fiction a genre? All of Garner's books up to and including the magnificent Red Shift are to some extent fantasy, but with an increasing bleakness and psychological intensity. | ||
| John Llewellyn Probert (John_l_probert) Username: John_l_probert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.253.174.81 |
Zed - it's great isn't it? I watched it last Christmas. Kim Newman's right when he says in his notes that you wouldn't get this made for adult TV today, let alone kids - but I think in those days the guys making kids TV were left alone alot more - as long as there was something to fill the 4-15 to 5-45 slot on ITV they didn't much care, so HTV made a shedload of interesting stuff like Sky, Children of the Stones, and Bob Baker & Dave Martin's King of the Castle (that one where a kid goes down in a lift and enters his own psyche, which frighteningly included Talfryn Thomas). Oh, and what about Gillian Hills, or rather her CV? Demons of the Mind, A Clockwork Orange, Antonioni's Blow Up and this. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.242.126 |
Indeed, Lord P. Such innovative stuff. Hills was great in this (and very lovely) - and, yes, what a CV! Then she gave up acting and fled to New York to become an illustrator... I ordered CHILDREN OF THE STONES a few days ago.  | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.221.231 |
Still carrying a torch for Bianca, eh? | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.50.168 |
Lord P; 'they didn't much care' - not sure about this. I think kids were expected to catch up with adults in a different way other than via clothes and money and shopping. Children of the Stones is a bit unlyrical, and tends - as the actor says in the commentary - to be all exposition and no character development. I know I said this isn't always important as with the Batman film but here it feels it is; it's a series with a village in it, and we need to know the villagers, live there a little. I can't get into The Owl Service book but liked Red Shift very much till the bleak ending. I really hate bleak endings even if they do make sense... | ||
| Steve Bacon (Stevebacon) Username: Stevebacon Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 90.213.27.228 |
"Isn't spy fiction a genre?" Oh dear, I was hoping nobody noticed. After I posted it I noticed what I'd actually said - can we please get an 'edit post' function? Us idiots are exposed without one. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 160.6.1.47 |
"I really hate bleak endings even if they do make sense..." Me too, lately. It seems a failure. Art should spin gold from the world, suggest possibilities rather than deny them. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.74 |
Dear me. You should both avoid my stuff, then. | ||
| Steve Bacon (Stevebacon) Username: Stevebacon Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 90.213.27.228 |
It may be my pessimistic nature, but I feel cheated if an ending is anything but bleak. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 160.6.1.47 |
Someone said that no true art, no matter how sad, is ever depressing. I never find your stuff depressing, Ramsey. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.227.93 |
To make a sweeping & fuzzy generalization about horror fiction: Most horror short stories end unhappily, most horror novels at least semi-triumphantly. Why is that?... I think it's because it's okay to be jolted despairingly for a short investment; but if you're going to spend that much time with a work of fiction, dammit, you don't want to be totally despondent by the end.... | ||
| Steve Bacon (Stevebacon) Username: Stevebacon Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 90.213.27.228 |
I think there definitely has to be some type of payoff, a return for the reader's investment in time and emotion. And the bigger the investment, the bigger the payoff. But surely the ending can still be bleak, as long as some of the character's goals are achieved? | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.0.112.152 |
Pet Sematary? | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.0.112.152 |
Some folk claim that the horror genre is inherently conservative in the sense that the social order ruptured by the supernatural is invariably restored towards the end, even when it's profoundly damaged by it. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.240.42 |
But that only describes stories in which the order of things is challenged by an external 'evil'. To me, that's always a relatively shallow stratum of the genre. It doesn't describe any great weird fiction. To my mind, great weird fiction always describes our world as it already is, always has been, and evermore will remain. It is never about good and evil. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.240.42 |
"It seems a failure. Art should spin gold from the world, suggest possibilities rather than deny them." No, Proto. No, no way, nohow. As Marcuse said, art needs to challenge the 'affirmative culture' that classifies doubt and criticism as sickness. The bullying 'cheer up, it might never happen' mentality. It has happened. It will go on happening unless people stop grinning and start telling the truth. That starts with anger, criticism and unease. 'Upbeat' endings cheat the reader and insult the intelligence. They are difficult to forgive. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.216.19 |
"No, Proto. No, no way, nohow." That's a no, is it? Of course Disneyland is horrific, too. I'm not saying that art can't be bleak -- I wouldn't be on this board if I thought that. I guess what I don't like is fatalism -- calls to inaction that are as damaging to solving problems as the affirmative, unquestioning culture you mentioned. The latter stops us acknowledging a problem, the former from acting on it. Both are unhealthy, I think. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.142.1 |
Mmm, yes. That's fair enough. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.216.19 |
(Phew. Think I got away with that one. Now to hide this embarrassing saucy book before the vicar arrives...) | ||
| John Llewellyn Probert (John_l_probert) Username: John_l_probert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 90.208.214.15 |
It's not 'Gentleman's Relish' by Ronnie Barker is it Proto? My dad had that. | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.177.71 |
I can think of plenty of 'great' weird stories in which an external 'evil' or force is at work ('The Colour Out of Space', anyone? 'The Willows'? 'The Horla'?). I think art can be optimistic or pessimistic - the important thing is the creativity and the quality of the writing, surely, and not whether it's upbeat or glum. Personally I think a story should contain some kind of hope, however dark it is (it doesn't have to have a happy ending, of course). I find I soon get tired of books with a 'miserable' theme these days, mainly because I feel most of them are badly written. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.50.168 |
For me bleak stuff freezes me, makes me not want to act. For instance I've heard a lot of media coverage of global warming is responsible for people feeling 'why bother, we're doomed' and not acting as responsibly as one might have anticipated. For me all determinedly bleak endings do are ensure I don't reread the book. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.220.134 |
I agree, Tony. We have to believe that our actions matter. Arthur C. Clarke used something similar to Pascal's Wager when he decided to be an optimist -- with optimism there's at least the possibility of a self-fulfilling prophecy. The book's cover is missing, John. The pages just loll about like something at an orgy (I'd imagine). | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.0.112.152 |
I - not for the first time - agree with Huw. Why be prescriptive? Proto, regarding optimism - do we really have the capacity to choose the turn of our minds? I'm all for freedom situated within context, but I do feel that such a thing (and others) is dispositional. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.217.159 |
"Proto, regarding optimism - do we really have the capacity to choose the turn of our minds?" Yes, we do. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.138.9 |
"I can think of plenty of 'great' weird stories in which an external 'evil' or force is at work ('The Colour Out of Space', anyone? 'The Willows'? 'The Horla'?)." External to our frame of reference, Huw, yes. But we were talking about weird fiction in which 'evil' entities are defined as such within a Judeo-Christian moral framework that allows for their defeat and the restoration of the 'natural' (human) order. All three of those stories suggest that there is a natural order with its own norms that we cannot understand. The entities are not 'evil' in any sense, and we might be as 'evil' to them as we are to us. They represent the way the universe appears without the rose-tinted tinted spectacles of our moral preconceptions about how it should be. And in none of those stories is the entity defeated, though in one case it apparently gets bored and mooches off to a more interesting galaxy. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.138.9 |
When I say 'we were talking' I mean Gary. | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.184.2 |
Sorry Joel, I thought you were saying something quite different in your post above (a few posts up). I must have misread (quite possible for me these days). ;-) | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.50.168 |
Yeah, wasn't talkin about wanting 'happy' endings, just endings with elements of hope or opportunites for growth. To *me* anything otherwise is an empty experience. Also, bleak endings or events in fiction have actually affected my mood and shifted me towards genuine despair. I am, however, a wuss, so don't take me too seriously. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.242.126 |
art needs to challenge the 'affirmative culture' that classifies doubt and criticism as sickness. The bullying 'cheer up, it might never happen' mentality. It has happened. It will go on happening unless people stop grinning and start telling the truth. That starts with anger, criticism and unease. 'Upbeat' endings cheat the reader and insult the intelligence. They are difficult to forgive. As usual, Joel says it so much better than I ever could. Fuck happy endings: life itself doesn't have one, so why sould we make one up? Happy New Year.  | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.242.126 |
Those italics went haywire...  | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.177.225 |
You tell 'em, Zed - how dare these people be happy or hopeful when there's misery and pessimism to be had? They need to know life is pointless and shit, dammit! ;-) | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.12.56 |
There is the possibility of things beyond knee-jerk "happy" or "despairful" endings. What is a "happy ending" (outside of a massage parlor)? If one character dies needlessly, say, in the course of a work of fiction, hope for a happy ending as it is, is marred - the past even of fictional creations isn't erased, if one honestly seeks these grand pronouncements. Bob Cratchit (sp?) had a pretty lousy run of years, whatever Scrooge has transformed into (poor Tiny Tim, too). "Redemption" can be despairful, and unhappy, if you had to narrow it down to those kind of categories - or, it can be, just redemption. So for "knowledge," which is the usual success-goal of I'd say most horror fiction: knowledge of the unknown is often all the heroes are allowed, even in the worst of horrors... and it may not be very happy, but it is its-self. It, is. "Beauty" is another triumph that defies "happy" or "unhappy" - I've said, it's sheer beauty when Othello strangles Desdemona, in Shakespeare's hands... don't let anyone ever say killing your wife is always a bad thing....  | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.151.20 |
Even as irony, Craig, that's going too far. Don't rely on emoticons as disclaimers for your words. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.242.126 |
"Redemption" can be despairful, and unhappy, if you had to narrow it down to those kind of categories - or, it can be, just redemption. Yep. I agree. Good point. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.74 |
A few great works of art with bleak endings that come to my mind: most of Beckett's later work, Lowry's Under the Volcano, Greene's The Power and the Glory, Bunuel's Los Olvidados, McCarey's Make Way for Tomorrow (there was even a rumour that audience members had been driven to suicide, though I don't think any evidence was shown), Mizoguchi's Sansho Dayu... By contrast, the ending of Pasolini's Salo isn't actually bleak, but it certainly doesn't negate the total experience of the work. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 160.6.1.47 |
Art is a branch of applied medicine. If it doesn't improve our lives, it's worthless. During some parts of our lives walking through the mind's blasted heath is therapeutic, and that's great. It's just not for me right now, I guess. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.242.126 |
Art is a branch of applied medicine. If it doesn't improve our lives, it's worthless. Not sure if I agree with that statement. Improve wouldn't be the word I'd choose - perhaps elevate, enlarge, or simply alter. A lot of great art is incredibly painful to experience; some of it hits you right in those raw places you try to repress. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.242.126 |
Yeah, for me great art should be painful. Or at least cause a certain degree of discomfort. The truth, however it is found, hurts - and that's as it should be. It's easy to make me smile; make me cry, though, and you have driven deep into my soul. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.5.212 |
Even as irony, Craig, that's going too far. Uh - are you being archly ironic back, Joel? - I never can tell.... [EMOTICON REMOVED BY ORDER OF THE KING] | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.5.212 |
Zed, I just recently saw Tokyo Story - for a movie where virtually nothing happens, it really sends a knife through you. I'd recommend it, but then, it's not exactly a pleasureable experience, that.... | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.242.126 |
Cheers, Craig - I'll be sure to check it out. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.242.126 |
You seen Bergman's THROUGH A GLASS DARKLY? That's one of the most emotionally scarifying (and utterly compelling) films I've ever seen. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.3.59 |
Many years ago I saw THROUGH A GLASS DARKLY, and I remember it being pretty harrowing, though not much else about it. I should revisit, and catch up on those Bergmans I've not seen - like FANNY & ALEXANDER, which I am avoiding until I can see the unedited super-long version... maybe I'll go out and shell out the $ for it... but is it worth it?... | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.3.59 |
...McCarey's Make Way for Tomorrow (there was even a rumour that audience members had been driven to suicide... Shots ringing out, the lights come up, and the audience members all slumped over in their seats, dead... it's a hilarious image... I guess there's just something about this thread that's bringing out the devil in me.... | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.242.126 |
A lot of Bergman's films are among the most terrifying horror films I've ever seen - he made amazing metaphysical (or ontological) ghost stories. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.3.59 |
On our local cable channel out here, they were advertising a feature that the cable company has, called "Trailers On Demand" - you tune to a certain channel at a certain time, and you can see trailers running for movies currently in theatres. So, they have stock footage of average folk piling around the TV, eating popcorn - they're laughing and pointing at the off-screen TV, hugging their children tight on the sofa as they settle in for a movie, the kids are laughing and/or the loving couples are smiling... and they'll cut away occasionally to an example of a current trailer, and it's GRAN TORINO - Clint Eastwood scowling as he blows away, DEATH WISH-like, Asian thugs... back to the laughing viewers... back to Clint growling and shooting and killing... back to little kids giggling... tee-hee.... | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.3.59 |
Zed - yes - the opening to WILD STRAWBERRIES... uber-creepy.... | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.242.126 |
The horrific elements of Bergman's films are always downplayed by maintream critics: CRIES AND WHISPERS is one of the creepiest ghost stories I've ever seen; THE SILENCE predicts Kubrick's THE SHINING by years; HOUR OF THE WOLF is as nightmarish an example of surrealism and mental breakdown as ERASERHEAD; PERSONA is simply terrifying; THROUGH A GLASS DARKLY gave me nightmares with its references to God as a "stone-faced spider". Brilliant. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.194.135 |
Zed: "The truth, however it is found, hurts - and that's as it should be." Eh? Why should the truth hurt? Sounds like you want the truth to be nasty. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.242.126 |
The truth hurts because it is the truth - no nice frills to make it sentimental, no typically human fabrications to temper the message. The truth is nasty, Proto. The fundamental truth is: we all die, and there's nothing after. Oh, I'm so festive, aren't I? Sorry. | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 79.70.118.163 |
Truth = death. We just have to soften the impact a little... It is for no small reason I asked you to write the into to my collection Zed. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.242.126 |
For a pessimist, I'm actually quite positive. Honestly. I believe in making the best of thing while we're here - grabbing opportunities, going for it, chasing your dreams and doing your best for the ones you love. Because there's nowt else after this, so you might as well grab it all by the balls. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.242.126 |
s | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 79.70.118.163 |
So true...grab life by the balls... look after your immediate family and the rest can... At an early stage in life we cast our nets wide and then learn to keep them close to the shore. Old words but still seem fine to me. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.3.145.154 |
"Many years ago I saw THROUGH A GLASS DARKLY, and I remember it being pretty harrowing, though not much else about it. I should revisit, and catch up on those Bergmans I've not seen - like FANNY & ALEXANDER, which I am avoiding until I can see the unedited super-long version... maybe I'll go out and shell out the $ for it... but is it worth it?..." Yes. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.242.126 |
So true...grab life by the balls... I have two maxims in this life: I'd rather do a thing than own a thing Just fucking do it | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.199.27 |
I second Ramsey's recommendation for Fanny and Alexander. Zed, well said (about the ball-grabbing). | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.199.27 |
Er, the balls of life, that is... | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.242.126 |
Huw, you can grab my balls any time. In a platonic manner, of course. Unless there's money or Euro horror DVDs involved. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 89.19.82.42 |
"The truth is nasty, Proto. The fundamental truth is: we all die, and there's nothing after." Eh? "Truth = death." Huh? "look after your immediate family and the rest can... " Oh dear. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.242.126 |
"The truth is nasty, Proto. The fundamental truth is: we all die, and there's nothing after." Eh? You're just not on my wavelength. Never mind. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.255.196 |
Only two things you have to do in life: 1) You have to die 2) Until you die, you have to live | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.242.126 |
Indeed, Craig. I couldn't agree more. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.225.37 |
3) You have to read 'The Music of Erich Zann'. And that's about it. |