| Author | Message | ||
     Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 79.187.206.46 |
I wouldn't usually do this, but a story I submitted to magazine in the states, shortly after Des rejected it (Des' rejection was both courteous and polite), was rejected on the grounds that it was overwritten (fair enough), and that it was pretentious. The editor highlighted several paragraphs to illustrate his point. I've included two paragraphs here and wondered if anybody might cast a critical eye and tell me if they think the editor is right. The paragraphs are three of the offending paragraphs as mentioned. William Major stalked the Oak Vale lobby with all the intention of a Peter Lorre facsimile, eyes bulging as he tried to imagine what was happening in the hotel function room. His hands gripped the resume he'd shamefully brought along as if somehow it might convince the director of 'Grotesque Reservations' to hire him. Who was he kidding? A pedigree such as his was like throwing caviar before a mewling litter of mongrels. What did they know of prestige and professionalism? What on earth had he been thinking? A horror movie? Had it really come down to this? My God, he thought, I'm straight out of a play by Osbourne. He surveyed the other applicants with amusement, and then wondered how these people had overtaken him so suddenly in his career. The nearest actor, five days of growth lying against his skin as if the audition had accelerated his sloppiness, had all the charisma of a faceless extra. Next to him the line dwindled away into varying degrees of sameness. Clones, all of them, he thought. He sat back in his seat, his resume propped in his lap, wondering if he should take up smoking again. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.4.190 |
I think William Major is pretentious... but then, it appears he's supposed to be. The writing itself is not pretentious. | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 79.187.206.46 |
Craig - thank you, mate. He is meant to be pretentious. Even name is meant to 'sound' pretentious...err, if you get what I mean. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.0.112.152 |
Verily, I nary regard this sterling passage as at all, in short and to wit and to woo, overwritten, notwithstanding any part of its languorous structure being intended t'otherwise or no. | ||
| Simon Strantzas (Nomis) Username: Nomis Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 38.113.181.169 |
If I submitted this work and received that response, I'd say to myself something pretentious such as, "Like fuck am I submitting to that shit-for-brains again." | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 79.70.52.161 |
I like it Frank. Just tell yourself it wasn't for them. | ||
| Steve Bacon (Stevebacon) Username: Stevebacon Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 90.213.27.228 |
It sounds like the editor just didn't 'get it'. Simon, that made me laugh out loud. Gary F, you sound like Frankie Howerd (titter ye not). | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.0.112.152 |
OOhhh, nooooo, missus. | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.21.235.241 |
I would call the writing dense. There's nothing wrong with the language, but if all the paragraphs are like this the reader will need heavy duty eyes.  | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 212.74.96.200 |
I agree: it's dense rather than poncey or pretentious, Fran. Don't let the b*****s get you down. I just got my first rejection of the year! Yay! Celebrate! I've made an inportant step forward in elliminating one market for the piece in my hunt for the proper one. Oh aye. And if all else fails, I'll send it to the NEW YORKER to annoy them and waste their time . . . | ||
| Chris_morris (Chris_morris) Username: Chris_morris Registered: 04-2008 Posted From: 12.165.240.116 |
One man's pretentious is another man's perfect prose. Don't sweat it, Frank. Remember that all criticism is just opinion. Having your work accepted is always a matter of getting your story in a receptive editor's hands while he's in the right mood on the right day. Sure, talent's involved, but so is pure luck. The best advice: Keep your chin up and try, try again. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.242.126 |
>>I agree: it's dense rather than poncey or pretentious, Fran. <, I agree with the delightful Mr. Lynch. | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.185.83 |
I agree with all the delightful people above. Keep at it, Frank - eventually you'll find the right editor with the right story at the right time. Good luck! | ||
| Tom_alaerts (Tom_alaerts) Username: Tom_alaerts Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.242.10.7 |
To be bluntly honest, I must say that if I read this early in a story I would probably stop reading, the samples irritated me. I don't think it's pretentious however. I do think that even if you disagree with the editor (which is perfectly acceptable), it's rather nice of him to explain why he didn't like it. Indeed as the others say: keep up at it. | ||
| Simon Strantzas (Nomis) Username: Nomis Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 99.225.111.224 |
That was certainly blunt, Tom. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.168.4.162 |
I've been thinking about this. I think bluntness is less damaging than pretending to be nice. I think everyone here has a point, but people mustn't shy from being critical of things they feel cause problems. Ultimately these painful things help make us better, once we have absorbed the blow to our confidence. For the record I think the samples were 'bumpy' too, and held me back when I felt i should heve been moving. I did find myself feeling words could be dropped. i.e. this could be done, though it's only rough - 'William Major stalked the Oak Vale lobby like a Peter Lorre facsimile, eyes bulging as he tried to imagine what was happening in the hotel function room. His hands gripped the resume he'd brought along as if it might somehow convince the director of 'Grotesque Reservations' to hire him. What on earth had he been thinking? A horror movie? Had it really come down to this? My God, he thought, I'm straight out of a play by Osbourne...' But then even that feels like it needs stuff put back in! God, it's hard... | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 79.187.206.46 |
Chaps - Thanks for the words of encouragement.  Not that I was despondent about it, just that this was the first time I've been accused of being pretentious. Huw - I have to agree that the writing is dense. That's always been a problem of mine, which is why recently I've taken all my rejected stories (of which there are plenty), and am now in the process of paring them down. I'm not afraid of criticism, and I'm sure the editor was being honest, but I just didn't get the pretentious bit. | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 79.187.206.46 |
Hubert - sorry, pal. My message to Huw was meant for you. | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 79.187.206.46 |
Tom - You see, I've absolutely no problem with your statement. In fact, I agree. This was written in one sitting, though if I were to be painfully honest with myself, a lot of my stories are like that, hence my focus on stripping the technical layers down. I'm actually enjoying doing this at present, though it does tend to hurt my brain. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.242.126 |
people mustn't shy from being critical of things they feel cause problems. Ultimately these painful things help make us better, That's a very good point, Tony, and I agree. I'd much rather someone highlighted what they didn't like about something I'd written rather than just say they thought it was ok. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.168.4.162 |
Frank - that's excellent. Some people say that less is more but that isn't always right - sometimes, if done right, more is just right. As long as it flows. A quote from Mark Twain really stuck in my mind - 'Good writing is using just the right words.' | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.242.126 |
ps- one of the things I've always liked about this place is the honesty of fellow posters. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.0.112.152 |
Zed, you're a cunt. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.242.126 |
 | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.21.235.241 |
My take on the second paragraph. The use of SHOULD is debatable, but it feels right to me. "He surveyed the other applicants with amusement, WONDERING how ON EARTH IT WAS POSSIBLE THAT these CAREER HUNTERS SHOULD HAVE overtaken him so suddenly. The nearest actor, five days of growth lying against his skin, as if the PROSPECT OF AN audition had ADDED TO HIS USUAL sloppiness, had all the charisma of a faceless extra. STILL, THE LONG line TO HIS LEFT dwindled away into ODDLY varying degrees of sameness. THEY WERE clones, all of them. He sat back in his seat, his resume propped in his lap, SUDDENLY UNSURE ABOUT A GREAT MANY THINGS. Should he take up smoking again?" | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.252.73 |
Writing is rewriting. If you're not rewriting, you're not writing - you're vomiting. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 06-2008 Posted From: 86.166.188.81 |
All my stuff is pretentious and overwritten - proud of it. :-) Just overwritten a small new thingie here this afternoon: http://weirdmonger.blogspot.com/2009/01/glimpse.html | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.168.4.162 |
That's nice, Dez. But really - you should relax - you look like Jarvis cocker in that pic. I think we hate whatever age we are at. We always hate now. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 06-2008 Posted From: 86.166.188.81 |
That's nice, Dez. But really - you should relax - you look like Jarvis cocker in that pic. ========= Thanks, Tony. Background to that 1968 photo emerging in my life for the first time this week: http://www.ligotti.net/showthread.php?t=2476&page=2 I'm now relaxed. | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.22.229.226 |
Let's all post pix of what we looked like twenty or thirty years ago. This is me in my late twenties: \image {Bert3} | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.22.229.226 |
 | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.193.5 |
Nice picture, Hubert! I'll see if I can dig up one... | ||
| Tom_alaerts (Tom_alaerts) Username: Tom_alaerts Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.243.64.127 |
Reading my original blunt comment again, which believe it or not was actually meant to be constructive, I realise that in my obvious haste I forgot to add some explanation. And in fact Tony did that better than I could. My feeling was that the fragment was convoluted, and Tony's example suggestion of a clean-up is indeed what I had in mind. cheers! | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.145.163 |
The photo looks like the actor Sam Riley, who played Ian Curtis in CONTROL. It looks a bit like Ian Curtis, but a lot like Sam Riley. | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.22.229.226 |
omg. Joel, I suppose I have to take that as a compliment? | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 212.74.96.200 |
Read, read, read. Read everything - trash, classics, good and bad, and see how they do it. Just like a carpenter who works as an apprentice and studies the master. Read! You'll absorb it. Then write. If it's good, you'll find out. If it's not, throw it out of the window. William Faulkner | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.147.202 |
Hubert, I sometimes think saying "You used to look good" is like saying "You used to write good books". But if praise of your past appearance gives you pleasure, who am I to quibble? | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.242.126 |
I'd add to Mark's Faulkner comment above: Read, read, read everything; live a lot; then write. It's the only way to go.  | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.0.112.152 |
Or as Mark Twain said: a novel is a confession from someone who's never done anything. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.231.208 |
Hubert - you looked like Rod Blagoyevich. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 212.74.96.200 |
>>a novel is a confession from someone who's never done anything. Frank herbert's DUNE books were such a case really. He didn't live an extraordinary life. But he found a lot in the little he did. Imagination, innit, guv? But I appreciate what Zed's saying. If your heart's never been broken, it's hard to convince folk your characters' hearts have been bust. I think it's why I don't really like this new trend in publishing to go for young authors, make it a marketing boost. Writng's one of the few pursuits where age is an advantage. Ramsey could never have written MIDNIGHT SUN when he was producing DOLL WHO ATE . .. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.161.253.10 |
'a novel is a confession from someone who's never done anything' I don't hold to that, you know. I think young folk can be wiser than us. They can see with pure eyes. It's like that 'Whole of the Moon' song, and I'm reminded of Emily Dickinson, who more or less lived within one house and a tiny village her whole life and wasn't discovered till after her death (I think that's right). They may not have had their heart broken but their imaginations have soared, and maybe they are just capable of feeling more than we have. Maybe their hearts broke over small things held very valuable and close. Hey - Adams Girlfriend LOVED the Twilight book I bought her so much she has now read the other three books in 6 DAYS. She cried at the end. Oh, to accomplish that reaction as an author... | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.16.85.227 |
I agree, Tony - it's not about doing, it's about experiencing. And when it comes to writing, it's about experiencing the emotional core of being, and regurgitating it, and refashioning and refining it, until it is something unique, but recognizable. It is that which everyone immediately knows, from another angle: the personal one. Hollywood's crass boiled-down formula for success: the same, but different. That works too, as a definition, even if it's not as poetic a way of putting it.... | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.161.253.10 |
S E Hinton. Francoise Sagan. Capote. All started young but with the oldest heads imaginable. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.0.112.152 |
>>>Or as Mark Twain said: a novel is a confession from someone who's never done anything. I'm not sure Twain's comment was about experience per se. The key word, I think, is 'confession'... | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.161.253.10 |
Ah yes, that turns it. It was what other folk made of it that I was addressing. Your observation makes it about something else altogether. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.161.253.10 |
Thing is, kids are in a world unlike ours, on a kind of battlefront of change. We need their reports as much as they need ours. | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 79.70.104.147 |
Live then write. I remember living through stuff and absolutely knowing that I would write about it when the time was right. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.161.253.10 |
I have some old school journals from my teens. They're very intense, real eye-openers. I think I felt so much but I don't think I'd be able to replicate those things now. I think I envy young authors more than resent them, and that doesn't mean to say I think they're all good. | ||
| Jamie Rosen (Jamie) Username: Jamie Registered: 11-2008 Posted From: 99.240.155.122 |
I personally don't care for using public figures to describe characters, unless it's another character doing the describing. So that took me out of it right away. When I edit, I try not to use words like "overwritten" or -- especially -- "pretentious." The first is too vague, and the second too close to an attack. So regardless of whether or not I'm in agreement with the editor (and I couldn't say based on what little I've read) I'm in disagreement with how it was put forward. | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 79.187.206.46 |
I was mostly concerned whether the editor was correct in saying the story was pretentious. Having being criticised for other 'misdemeanours' in the past, this was something new. One editor was so aggressive I could practically feel his wrath take form as I read the rejection. The editor told me that whilst my story was technically better than most of the writers he published, he found it to be yet one one more entry in the Stephen King moralising department. He said King's time was over, and that he was looking for writers who wrote real horror! I'm about as close to King as I am to being an NBA hotshot. I wish. The funny thing was he then went on to criticise my grammar, claiming that the Semi-Passive (in my book the Past Continuous, or if you want to be more traditional, the Past Progessive) was over-used, and that KING had made this abundantly clear in ON WRITING. Strange chap. One minute blasting King, the next using KING to hammer home some points about grammar. And I was under the impression that King had written about the Passive. I just laughed it off. It's beginning to feel like water off a duck's back. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 129.11.76.230 |
>>>It's beginning to feel like water off a duck's back. I'm rejecting this post on account of its use of cliche. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
How about: jism off a whore's cheek. Is that better?  | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 129.11.76.230 |
That possesses a kind of poetic grace the like of which hasn't been penned since Daphne du Maurier and her little known masterpiece The Seamen of a Cornish Sailor. | ||
| Jonathan (Jonathan) Username: Jonathan Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.143.178.131 |
Mike Philbin has a novel called Bukakeworld. ... just while we're on the subject. |