| Author | Message | ||
     Niki Flynn (Niki) Username: Niki Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.32.69.29 |
I was watching The Evil Dead (for the very first time - yes, I know, I've got a lot of catching up to do) when the phone rang. Some guy from market research wanting to know how I feel about my bank. "Soon you will all be like me," I told him. Long pause. "Pardon?" "Then who will lock YOU in the cellar?" I was about to do the maniacal laugh and start singing "We're gonna get you, not another peep" when he mumbled something and rang off. I never thought I'd enjoy taking these calls so much! | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.15.154 |
I just rewatched this Niki, recently... and it never fails to amaze me, how truly effective some of the horror is... the possessed chicks are still very scary.... | ||
| John (John) Username: John Registered: 05-2008 Posted From: 82.24.1.217 |
"We are the ones who were and shall be again." I had high hopes for Sam Raimi's return to horror with Drag Me to Hell, but I see that it's just received a PG-13 certificate in the States. Oh well... | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.47 |
I was walking home from work t'other day when I saw a pair of Mormons (easier to say than members of the church of the latter day saints) at the bus stop ahead, trying to hand out leaflets etc. I couldn't cross the road to avoid so I tried to walk straight past, hoping to avoid. It didn't work. The younger one of the two stopped me and looked me straight in the eye and asked me if I was a religious person. I could have said no and walked past. But instead, I switched on my best predatory pantomime dame character, matched his stare into the eyes and purred "you're a little cutie aren't you..." He was somewhat perturbed by this. Even more so when I reached up to stroke his cheek saying "You look so good in that nice suit, do you look as good out of it?" He panicked. He almost ran away from me. I didn't even need to offer him to come back to my place... I've never enjoyed talking to them more. (He was actually a very good looking guy as well.) | ||
| Jonathan (Jonathan) Username: Jonathan Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.143.178.131 |
I not entirely sure that Raimi was really into horror much in the first place. From reading the first volume of Bruce Campbell's autobiography it seemed that horror was picked because it was relatively cheap to make and Raimi was more into slapstick and comedy. I'm not sure that Raimi is a horror director in the same way that, say, Cronenberg of Argento are. The Evil Dead films are great though and the first one is massively creepy in places. Though those possessed chicks don't half give me the horn. Those dead, staring eyes, the maniacal grins... Phwoar! | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.47 |
My brother is a horror hater. He refuses to watch any horror film. When he decides he likes a horror film, he ALWAYS claims it's not horror. (Films that aren't horror apparently include Alien and silence of the Lambs). Anyway, one day he argued that sam Raimi must be a really bad director and a rubbish choice for spiderman because he'd made the Evil dead movies. In the course of the conversation he then quoted the Coens as great directors and proceded to lump a Simple Plan in as a Coen film. How much fun did I have pointing out to him that Simple plan was sam raimi's? | ||
| Jonathan (Jonathan) Username: Jonathan Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.143.178.131 |
I hope that you pointed AND laughed. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.47 |
I still do to this day... | ||
| John Llewellyn Probert (John_l_probert) Username: John_l_probert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 90.199.0.25 |
I think it's been pretty well documented that the first Evil Dead was meant to look a lot more knockabout and less horrifying but Raimi et al admitted they got it wrong, which is a shame because as fun as Raimi's other movies are, this is the one that really shook me up when I was 15. The bit where Shelly is dragged out of the fire and then axed to death as the screen runs red with blood is a classic gruesome movie moment. And the bit where possessed Betsy Baker licks Ash's blood off the knife throws a scene that's already intense over into horror-erotica territory. Marvellous | ||
| Jonathan (Jonathan) Username: Jonathan Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.143.178.131 |
Also, I lost all faith in Raimi as a decent director about half-way through the Spiderman franchise. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.47 |
Spidey 2 is easily one of the best Superhero films ever made. Number 3 was disppointing. There were too many villains, they were just trying to top everything that had gone before and forgot about using a coherent storyline. IMHO | ||
| Jonathan (Jonathan) Username: Jonathan Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.143.178.131 |
It was the relentless, he's a New York super hero 9-11 parable that I found pretty hard to take after a while. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.2.179 |
Spidey 2 is easily one of the best Superhero films ever made. Perhaps.... I still hated it. Here are cliches that needs to be shot and dumped in ditches: the superhero who has to "struggle with his dark side"... the superhero who has to learn how to balance normal life, with his superhero life... who has to choose between his loved one, and the lives of innocents... perhaps these are conventions of the genre that one must simply accept... if so, I'll grab my hat and go, because I could give a f@#$.... | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.47 |
they are the basic tenets/templates of the genre Craig. If they weren't there people would wonder why not as they are the logical problems faced by these characters. They are plot driven cliches. A superhero with no family life to be disrupted wouldn't face any personal challenges | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.47 |
You sit down to write a superhero story. After working out his powers and the limits thereof, you then have to work out how they fit into his/her personal life otherwise you have no real character. Just a guy in a costume running round. Automatically you have to look at his/her family life - Do they know? If so - how do they cope with it? If not, how can he keep his secret hidden? Is s/he tempted to use his/her powers for self-fulfilment? The answer has to be yes or the character is too squeaky-clean. etc. There's no escaping these plotlines if you want to write a story of this type. The life of a loved one versus the lives of innocents is a classic plotline which runs through all forms of heroic fiction not just the superheroes. | ||
| Niki Flynn (Niki) Username: Niki Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.32.69.29 |
The life of a loved one versus the lives of innocents is a classic plotline which runs through all forms of heroic fiction not just the superheroes. And not so heroic fiction. Vampires and werewolves struggle with that one all the time. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.16.84.247 |
they are the basic tenets/templates of the genre Craig The worm has turned....  | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.47 |
Saving the loved ones versus saving innocents may well be one of the seven stories... My problem with your template theory is that even if a story does contain all the correct elements, they need to be done well - otherwise you have a bad film. You completely ignore quality in your arguments. Also it is possible with enough skill in the direction to ignore the usual tenets/templates and still do a good movie. I've not seen or read watchmen yet but from what I've heard it does manage to throw out most of the usual superhero cliches/tenets/templates and still works as a movie. The main reason I disagreed with you was because you were using it to try to prove that the Mist was a bad film. A Steven King Monster Horror film - it contained big monsters, scares, a bleak bleak bleak atmosphere and ending, the standard issue SK religious nut (first seen in carrie and pops up every other book) etc - all the things you expect to see in a Stephen King horror monster movie and all done well. It doesn't hold up as a theory - especially in relation to a film as good as the Mist. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.47 |
By the way, can anyone tell me what are the seven basic storylines? | ||
| Niki Flynn (Niki) Username: Niki Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.32.69.29 |
Luxuria, Invidia, Superbia, Avaritia, Gula, Ira and Acedia. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.47 |
And that means? Sorry, excuse my ignorance... | ||
| Niki Flynn (Niki) Username: Niki Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.32.69.29 |
And that means? Sorry. Just me being cheeky. | ||
| John Llewellyn Probert (John_l_probert) Username: John_l_probert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.253.174.81 |
Well there are seven of them & they all look pretty deadly to me ;-> | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.47 |
Ah, not seen that list in latin before (or whatever language that is) Seriously, can any one of you lovely intelligent people advise me, what are the seven basic stories? | ||
| Niki Flynn (Niki) Username: Niki Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.32.69.29 |
Overcoming the monster; rags to riches; the quest; voyage and return; comedy; tragedy; rebirth. According to: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/3632074/Everything-ever-written-boiled- down-to-seven-plots.html Google's your friend, Weber!  The real question is - how many stories out there can fit into all seven categories? | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.246.152 |
I've been misunderstood by you on those three points, Weber.... My problem with your template theory is that even if a story does contain all the correct elements, they need to be done well - otherwise you have a bad film. You completely ignore quality in your arguments. No, I'm analyzing one aspect. I say, if a film lacks the elements to the template it's set itself within, it necessarily fails - but if it indeed contains those elements, it doesn't necessarily succeed. These are successive steps, and I was analyzing one step. Also it is possible with enough skill in the direction to ignore the usual tenets/templates and still do a good movie. I've not seen or read watchmen yet but from what I've heard it does manage to throw out most of the usual superhero cliches/tenets/templates and still works as a movie. I've not seen THE WATCHMEN either, but I maintain: a movie could (should!) expand beyond the template, but it must contain all the elements of the template. It can tweak them, turn them, ridicule them... but it must have them. Not lack them. The main reason I disagreed with you was because you were using it to try to prove that the Mist was a bad film.... I've somewhat revised my opinion of THE MIST.... I still think it a bad film, but I don't want to to and revisit that whole argument. It is entirely possible I'm not familiar with the SK-specific template; also, I think it was mis-advertised. If someone told you Coca Cola cured cancer, and you found out it didn't, you'd be mad at that guy, not at Coke. Perhaps I was taking out on the film itself, what it was merely purported to be, but was not.... | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
Seven basic story types: 1. Something happened, then something else happened. 2. Something happened, and prior to that something else happened. 3. Something happened, and something else happened at the same time. 4. Something happened, then nothing happened. 5. Nothing happened, then something happened. 6. Nothing happened. 7. Nothing will ever happen. I'm sorry, but all this template/fundamental story type/archetypal narrative stuff is utter rubbish. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.20.31.211 |
It's like trying to knit a pullover for Cthulhu. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.47 |
just make sure there are at least 87 arms and room for 6 heads. easy | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.20.31.211 |
Not so. Cthulhu occupies another spatial dimension. As soon as you've got the pattern right, it changes. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.20.31.211 |
As some French div once said, the best we can hope for an index of an enigma. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.236.210 |
I'm sorry, but all this template/fundamental story type/archetypal narrative stuff is utter rubbish. That's a sweepingly-vague statement, Joel. How so...? | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.47 |
Use spatial/temporal wool from the x-dimension and the 87 arms and 6 heads change automatically. You know nothing about knitting | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.197.61 |
If you think knitting would be difficult, imagine trying to build Cthulhu's house with all that non-Euclidian geometry. Ia! Ia! Cthulhu fhtagn! | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.197.61 |
Plus you would probably only be able to get your shoggoth labourers to work when the stars were right... | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.47 |
Alternately, just get a ball of normal wool, ask him to hold onto one end and run round Cthulu several times very quickly. | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.197.61 |
You could weave quite a yarn about knitting clothing for Cthulhu... | ||
| Chris_morris (Chris_morris) Username: Chris_morris Registered: 04-2008 Posted From: 12.165.240.116 |
I once heard there were two types of stories: (1) The hero goes on a journey ... and (2) A stranger comes to town. Of course this type of thing is overly simplistic and nearly worthless. Nonetheless, it has been striking to me how many stories fall into these categories. The reason for this, I think, is that most stories (ie, not Robbe-Grillet's) involve a protagonist and a set of obstacles, and the two above categories can be rougly rephrased as: (1) The protagonist goes to meet the obstacles he must overcome, and (2) The obstacles come to the protagonist. As I said, though, this is worthless. I can't imagine such information ever helping a writer write anything. | ||
| Niki Flynn (Niki) Username: Niki Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.32.69.29 |
In drama school I was taught that there were three kinds of dramatic situations: Man vs. Man Man vs. Nature Man vs. Self Again, fairly worthless but you can fit almost anything into those categories. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.20.31.211 |
Ooh, sexist.  | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.20.31.211 |
Man vs. Man Man vs. Nature Man vs. Self Woman vs. all three together and dealing with them easily without threatening to kill man, nature or self. | ||
| Chris_morris (Chris_morris) Username: Chris_morris Registered: 04-2008 Posted From: 12.165.240.116 |
Is a good ghost story Man vs Man, Man vs Nature, or Man vs Self? Or all three at once? | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.195.72 |
That's the problem, it's not 'versus' anything. If it's man versus nature (in the form of mortality), nature always wins. And if man appears to have won (i.e. there is a ghost, yay woo), it's only a matter of time before you realise man has lost all the way down the line. Hence the fourth basic type of story: We're all fucked. This is the plot of 95% of supernatural horror stories, the remaining 5% being shit. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.195.72 |
Plenty of the rest are shit too, but not intrinsically shit, just shit by virtue of poor writing. Optimistic supernatural horror stories are the Platonic archetype of shit. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.244.219 |
Platonic archetype Read: template. | ||
| Niki Flynn (Niki) Username: Niki Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.32.69.29 |
Optimistic supernatural horror stories are the Platonic archetype of shit. Surely it depends how you define "optimistic". I'm thinking of Cronenberg's claim that all his stories have happy endings because you're meant to identify with the disease. | ||
| John Llewellyn Probert (John_l_probert) Username: John_l_probert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 90.199.0.226 |
Absolutely. Pretty much everything I've ever written has a happy ending. Just not necessarily for the people the reader may feel they are supposed to identify with. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.235.140 |
That's cool, John and Niki. I mean the 'evil is defeated by good' type endings. Though I can tolerate them when the only reason for the defeat of 'evil' is to allow a series character to go on living. As a kid I used to watch Hammer films on TV and pray that, just once, the vampire/werewolf/thing would triumph and the pompous, pious, tedious tossers would die. I can forgive Fulci his many infelicities of style because he rarely restores normality: he lets the new world emerge gaunt and rotting into the cold light of day. (Confused observer: Why is that Joel so happy? Bleak observer: It's better not to know.) | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.74 |
The one genuinely bleak Hammer ending I can recall is that of Losey's The Damned, and of course the Hammer personnel disliked the film. | ||
| Jonathan (Jonathan) Username: Jonathan Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.143.178.131 |
The Damned is great. Haven't seen it in ages but remember being really taken with it. Hasn't The Nanny got a fairly bleak ending too now we're taking about Hammer? | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 79.187.206.46 |
So, where does pornography fit into the seven plots/story thing? | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.20.31.211 |
Any way it likes with a little lubrication. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.47 |
An extremely easy quest or occcasionally overcoming the monster (you don't want to know some of the films I've seen) | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
Prompted by this thread, I rewatched The Evil Dead last night. The last 20 minutes are still incredibly effective - even rather brilliant. | ||
| Karim Ghahwagi (Karim) Username: Karim Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 80.167.124.163 |
There is talk of a 4th Evil Dead picture in the works. | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 79.187.206.46 |
But not by Rami. I loved Darkman, but everyone else seems to think it's rubbish. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.227.0 |
Hey, I loved DARKMAN too! | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
Me too. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.7.6 |
Stop being so agreeable today, Zed. | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 79.187.206.46 |
Ah, it's good to know I'm not alone. | ||
| John Llewellyn Probert (John_l_probert) Username: John_l_probert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 90.208.214.61 |
I loved DARKMAN too, so much I and the friend I saw it with reenacted certain scenes on the way home from the cinema. | ||
| Chris_morris (Chris_morris) Username: Chris_morris Registered: 04-2008 Posted From: 12.165.240.116 |
According to the interview two weeks ago with AICN, Raimi wants to do Evil Dead 4. He's waiting to complete his Spider-Man obligations first. | ||
| Karim Ghahwagi (Karim) Username: Karim Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 80.167.124.163 |
Frank: actually a couple of days ago Raimi said he would do Spidey 4, and then direct Evil Dead 4 if I remember correctly, but I may be wrong- but there is no Evil Dead without Raimi. The first Evil Dead picture was such a very strange and comedic thing that it occured to the production that doing a comedy sequel in the same vein would work much better I believe was how Evil Dead II came about--but also not sure if I remember correctly. Gremlins, The Little Shop of Horrors, Brain Dead, Terror Vision are also great horror comedies. The PG 13 rating of Drag Me to Hell only has about 6 seconds difference from the R rated picture I believe Raimi said. |