| Author | Message | ||
     Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.171.129.73 |
On Thursday, we get the chance to go to the polls. I think this election, more than any other in a long time, is an important one, the results of which could send serious reverberations through Westminster. Instead of taking Mark Twain's noble but somewhat idle 'I don't vote for politicians, it only encourages them' view, I think you do owe it to yourself to use your vote if you possibly can. I'm a floating voter by nature, and am considering placing my cross beside those staunchly stuffy and blustery conservatives UKIP. Could cause chaos. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.241.143 |
I think I owe it to myself to not bother. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
UKIP are ignorant, loutish, bigoted, destructive, arrogant Little Englanders. But they're less harmful than the fascist BNP, who are sworn to abolish democracy and to ethnically cleanse the UK, and who will win many seats if people don't all get out and vote for other alternatives. This time, there are two left of centre alternatives: the awkwardly named but well-principled No2EU – Yes to Democracy (fronted by Bob Crow and Dave Nellist, and campaigning for a workers' Europe rather than a bosses' Europe) and the Green Party. There's no need to vote for any of the three corrupt, business-serving mainstream parties. VOTE. | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 79.70.79.3 |
The leaflet I got through the door wasn't well written but I'll go with the Green Party, I think. At least their heart is in the right place. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
I didn't even register to vote. I'm so apathetic towards the whole thing now that I just left the form on the table and forgot about it... If they brought in online voting, and made it easy for me, I'd vote every time. | ||
| Tom_alaerts (Tom_alaerts) Username: Tom_alaerts Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.78.35.170 |
Zed, if you don't vote, then whatever the outcome is, you have no right to complain! I think everyone should vote. Actually, it is not just a right but an obligation over here, and I agree. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
Tom, I always have the right to complain. It's the only right I have left.  Seriuosly, though, I'm so fucked off with the entire thing that I can't even be arsed to first register and then traipse out to find somewhere where I can vote. Even guilt-tripping me no longer works. Whoever you vote for, the same shit gets in. They're all the same. I know this attitude stinks, btw... | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
I never said voting was enough. There's trade union activity, demonstrations, direct action, agitation, organised protest, civil disobedience and,when all else fails, insurrection. But voting is a start and should never be given up. To go from being angry about corporate interest-serving political parties to being apathetic is a tragedy. Don't give up, fight back. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.171.129.74 |
UKIP are indeed a bunch of loud blustery old Englanders. Sort of Boris Johnson withour the hair. But they can push the other parties out of office so will probably get my vote. Any party that Frank Carson supports must be worth a punt... | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
Richard Littlejohn also supports them. Which tells you a lot. UKIP are the 'acceptable' face of xenophobia and nationalism. If I wanted to displace the major parties, I wouldn't choose an alternative that represents the worst of what those parties already represent in a more concentrated form. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.171.129.74 |
Today I was in what should be called the Life On Mars Hair Emporium or something. Woman in there couldn't stop talking about the dancing 'coloureds' who won Britain's Been Famed. She did the 'all them 'coloureds' are such good dancers, and very fast runners'. I cheerfully said 'That's because the brothers know where to buy the best drugs.' Didn't get a laugh. Suspect I was playing to the wrong audience. Like doing stand-up to fish. Quite who the woman will be voting for, I don't know. Have you read Littlejohn's first novel, Joel? I skimmed through it out of interest. It's interesting to compare it to his second, in which he seems to lose the convictions of the first book, the convictions that made it Gene Hunt-esque and of any interest. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.171.129.73 |
I should probably add I am a floating voter, so to speak, and not unswayed by Joel's argument. Things looking worse for Gordon Brown now, with Jackie Smith reportedly resigning. Hope he's been advised not to smile. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
Mark, if you're angry about the undemocratic and corporate-driven nature of EU legislation, have a look at the No2EU – Yes to Democracy campaign. You can find their broadcast on YouTube. If you're not convinced, the Green Party has much to offer and already has a strong European presence. These are movements that can derail the gravy train and stop the rollout of privatisation across Europe. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.171.129.68 |
Hazel Blears has just pulled a strategic resignation. I find politics endlessly fascinating. Joel, I have plenty of arguments with the European hegemony and gravy train. But my vote tomorrow, still undecided, would more likely be aimed at unsettling/unseating those in Westminster. That's the major appeal of the UKIP position for me. I'd of course draw the line long before the BNP were it in such a position. UKIP protest against racism, however white and upper-class they mainly are. My most natural political allegiances have been Liberal, though less so the older I get. I'm like Cameron: a Liberal Conservative, of late! But I approve more and more of Nick Clegg, Cameron via Max Headroom though he may be... | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
Feeling less bleak about thinsg today (had a good run yesterday to get it out of my system), so have decided to vote. I'll probably just go with the Green party, as mine's a protest vote more than anything else. Either that or soil my voting form. | ||
| Simon Bestwick (Simon_b) Username: Simon_b Registered: 10-2008 Posted From: 86.24.165.182 |
Went for the Greens myself, Zed. They seemed a decent choice, though I was tempted briefly by Scargill's Socialist Labour Party. Felt like spitting on the ballot form, though, when I saw the symbol of the fucking BNP scum on it. (Wipes froth from lips.) | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
I wish there were a horror party we could vote for - with a manifesto to chill. | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 79.70.72.229 |
If Donnie Darko was on the ballot form I'd vote for him. | ||
| Steveduffy (Steveduffy) Username: Steveduffy Registered: 05-2009 Posted From: 86.156.195.99 |
Unfortunately, too many people seem to be voting for Greg Stillson... | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.47 |
They must have a Dead Zone between their ears... | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.26.61.140 |
Green for me, too. I once spoke to a BNP representative at work who'd called to ask us why we didn't have a category on our questionnaire for folk to tick "White English". We had one for "White British", but that didn't go far enough, apparently. Institutional politics prevented me from responding to this idiot in the way I would have preferred. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.47 |
I have to admit, when I see a form with choices that give choices of Welsh, Scottish or British but no option for English, it does annoy me. If the Welsh and Scots can give their specific nationality why can't the English? If it just says British, that's fine, but if you're going to break it down, include England as well. Otherwise you're just asking for trouble. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.26.61.140 |
Oh, giveover. How insecure does a person have to be to feel that way over their national identity on a questionnaire designed for some wholly other purpose? | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.47 |
It is irritating. When a form has Welsh and Scottish down as options, English should be there as well. Otherwise it's intimating that there's something wrong with being English. If there's no Welsh or Scottish options I've got no problem with just a single choice of British, but you can't just leave out a huge section of the populous of these isles like that. I've not got much national pride but this is one thing that does bug the hell out of me when I see it. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.26.61.140 |
In that case, being English is presupposed, and only alternatives explictly recorded. It doesn't mean you don't exist! Anyway, who cares? It's all so petty. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.47 |
If it bugs me, out of a sense of completeness more than national pride, can you not see how it would play right into the hands of the English Nationalists? It may be petty but there's a fuck of a lot of petty minded people out there. People who use this sort of thing as a springboard for causing all kinds of trouble. The "kick out all the coloureds" type of person can and will try to use this sort of thing as examples of how we're going down the pan and we're not even allowed to call ourselves English anymore goddamnit etc etc In times like this when faith in the main parties is so shaken that the extremists could slip in easily through the back door, we can't be giving any reasons for that kind of behaviour. If the BNP can convince people that they're being discriminated against in their own country, they can redirect the growing public hostility to the current political parties to their own aims. We're in a very scary situation politically in this country at the moment and we don't need anything like this to fan the flames any more. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.26.61.140 |
In the questionnaire, we had only one category for White British and that was White British. Shame on us. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.47 |
Fair enough. I wouldn't have had a problem with that one. The Little Englanders will latch on to anything though, as you found out. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.171.129.71 |
Well, I voted. Joel's voice follwed me into the booth and I'm sure nudged my pencil (the saucy minx) so that I wound up putting a cross beside the Greens. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.241.143 |
Another Green vote over here... | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.26.61.140 |
So much for political debate on forums being of no consequence . . . right, Albs? | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.241.143 |
I only voted because the missus wanted to, so i had to drive there anyway. Apathy rules OK. | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 79.70.72.229 |
My daughter is coming home soon. She is the friend of my doctor's daughter. I voted green and he does too. Result. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.241.143 |
My head just exploded. | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 79.70.72.229 |
Fine. | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 79.70.72.229 |
In other words - if a doctor can vote green and not vote for a party which would promote their own interests that must be good. I haven't given up hope yet. | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 79.70.53.201 |
I think I've been in too many queues behind drug company reps and heard too much crap in hospitals when something can't be done for relatives...I just want it all to change. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.246.183 |
Just read a stunning article by Leon Trotsky from early 1940, a few months before he was murdered, about the difference between political pragmatism and socialist realism. This is response to the criticism that Marxists are wedded to 'theory' and cannot engage with harsh reality. The example he gives is a round-table discussion of the necessary strategy for the invasion of Switzerland by the Soviet fleet. The pragmatists argue about how the invading ships should be equipped and when they will sail. The socialist asks: "Does Switzerland have a coastline?" | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 79.70.110.243 |
A bottle of red wine later and insomnia for my sins. I simply haven't come to terms with my sister's death yet hence the crap posts. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.171.129.71 |
Sorry to hear that, Ally. I can't imagine how that sort of things can be come to terms with, perhaps in time only accepted. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.171.129.71 |
I can't work out if Gordon Brown is a perfect example of the 'Be careful of what you wish for...' homily or not. I'm sure if he'd not ascended (or bulldozed his way) to the Premiership, he'd've been bitter at Blair, thinking it was his fault he never achieved the highest office. Mind, he probably blames Blair now... James Purnell has resigned from the cabinet, citing Brown as the reason. Brown's increasingly looking like a tail-end Charlie PM, hanging onto Blair's coat tails... | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 79.70.110.243 |
Thanks Mark. It just sort of hit me last night when I leasted expected it. It's been a year and I thought I was doing fine but I'm not. I was really angry and haven't a clue who with - well the crap NHS and myself mostly but that is only a part of it. I'll get there eventually but it is a bit of a bumpy ride. | ||
| Simon Bestwick (Simon_b) Username: Simon_b Registered: 10-2008 Posted From: 86.24.165.182 |
Ally, sorry to hear this. Take care. x. | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 79.70.110.243 |
Thanks Simon. I'm going to sit in the sunshine for a bit then go to bed for an hour. Then back to writing. I really want to finish this novel before the school holidays. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.135.8 |
Sorry to hear this, Ally. Grief has a different timescale than other things. It's not about how much time has passed, but how much strength you have built up in between. You can't 'get over' a bereavement, but you can grow to make space for it within yourself. Take it easy. | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.192.62 |
Sorry to hear that, Ally. Hang in there, and know that we're all here for you. | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 79.70.110.243 |
I appreciate the kind words Joel and Huw and didn't mean to draw attention to myself. I've also been trying to help a friend whose mother is in a bad state. I know I'll never get over bereavement - just learn to live with it, if you know what I mean. Three bereavements in a short space of time was quite enough. I feel empathy for members of the board who have had to go through it too. | ||
| Gcw (Gcw) Username: Gcw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.155.105.181 |
Sorry to hear of your distress Ally, my thoughts are with you. gcw | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 79.70.110.243 |
I'm fine again tonight - just a little washed out. Watching a programme on T.S. Elliot. I always turn to poetry when I feel like this, actually. I appreciate the thought - GCW. I know you've had to go through similar trials too. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.171.129.68 |
Was it TS Elliot who said something about TV being a wonderful device that allows millions of people to laugh at the same joke while being horribly lonely? | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.171.129.68 |
I,m tempted to say something about the NHS being the best advert I know for private medical insurance, but that'd prompt too long a post from Joel. Mind you, if I mentoioned chavs as well, he and Zed may have to spend so long posting on here that it'll eat into their enviable prolificness and give us grinders a chance at catching up... | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.171.129.68 |
Ah, women's lib. Caroline Flint - the one MP that I would - has resigned and stuck her stilleto into Gordy, and what happens? A bunch of tame loyalist women MPs pop up on the news shows using language about her like 'she's throwing a hissy fit', 'she's flounced off', 'getting her pouting face in every paper'. I'm surprised there wasn't a time of the month dropped in too. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.205.21 |
Mark... I'm not going to make excuses for the current marketised, cost-obsessed, accountant-ruled NHS, but two facts of current experience need to be kept in mind by anyone considering private health insurance. The first is that if you have any chronic illness, such as cardiovascular disease, diabetes or a skeletal disorder, no private insurance policy will cover you for future treatment related to that disorder. It will cover you for unrelated problems (such as treatment for accidental injuries) where they do not impact on your chronic disorder, but even then your premiums will be much, much higher than if you had a current clean bill of health. The reason for that, quite obviously, is that 'market forces' dictate that health insurers maximise their profits. It actually works better, profit-wise, for them all to do that than for some to 'compete' by taking on 'problem' patients. The second thing to keep in mind is that when a patient in a private hospital in the UK develops complications that the insurance policy does not cover, or that the hospital is ill-equipped to deal with, the patient is turned over to the NHS. This is not an urban myth: it happens all the time, and every NHS hospital receives such patients on a regular basis. The reason being that private hospitals are only as well-equipped as demonstrable profit dictates – i.e. not very. Caveat emptor. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.171.129.69 |
All very true. I'm simply aware of people who have benefitted from private treatment after the NHS has buggered them up. If I had the opportunity to take insurance, I would do. That's all. | ||
| Barbara Roden (Nebuly) Username: Nebuly Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 142.179.24.243 |
When I lived in the UK I only had to use hospitals (NHS) a few times. The facilities were serviceable but fine, the treatment good. Had to wait a bit on one occasion, but I don't expect/demand to be seen within seconds of walking into the ER, unless I have a limb off or something pretty major. We had to go private once, when Christopher's mum needed to get clearance to emigrate with us to Canada and we were facing a tight timeline. The private hospital outside Manchester we went to was gorgeous; I've stayed in hotels that weren't as well appointed. Fresh cut flowers in the lobby, thick carpeting everywhere, a machine that dispensed cappuccinos in the waiting room, someone to take your bags to your room when you checked in. The service we got was fine, but was it worth what we paid? In terms of time saved, yes; in terms of quality of care, no, we'd have got the same from the NHS, I suspect. And really, if I have to use a hospital, I don't care that there are fresh flowers in the lobby, or that there's someone there to carry my bag, I care about getting seen and treated. | ||
| Gcw (Gcw) Username: Gcw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.155.105.181 |
Having had a lot of first hand experience over the last 3 years of NHS hospitals my opinion, I am afraid to say, is not particularly high. 1/ NHS Hospitals are dirty (Yes, they are - very). 2/ NHS Hospitals are badly organised. 3/ NHS Staff are very often, slovenly, and complain of being overworked, when then can indeed find time to talk at the Nurses' station about last nights TV when an old lady is crying in her bed because nobody will answer her buzzer to bring her a bed pan* * This is a true story. Do not get ill, do not get old, and if you must, then do not on any account do it on the 'NHS'. gcw | ||
| Barbara Roden (Nebuly) Username: Nebuly Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 142.179.24.243 |
You know, GCW, you could say this about any organisation: find examples of unprofessional or slovenly or rude behaviour, then hold them up and say 'All nurses/policemen/waitresses/teachers are like this' or 'All hospitals are dirty and badly organised'. As I said, I didn't have much exposure to the NHS when I lived in England, but I had nothing to complain about regarding my experiences. I went in, I got treated properly, I went out again. Next time you see a bunch of nurses standing at a nursing station complaining of being overworked, resist the superficial impression of 'Oh, but you've got time to stand and around and bitch', and maybe take into account the rest of their shift, when they were running around like crazy, changing the nappy of some adult patient who probably shouldn't be in hospital in the first place, he or she should be in a nursing or long term care home, but whoops, there aren't enough government dollars (or pounds) to provide adequate space, so you get people who aren't really ill tying up the health care service beds, and trained RNs having to spend their time doing things that could and should be dealt with by others while they do the job they've trained for. And just to counter your point three above, when Ellen Datlow was in England earlier this year and developed a serious leg injury which required emergency hospitalisation and surgery, she said that the nursing staff at the (non private) hospital in London were wonderful; so much so that one of the nurses phoned Ellen after she got back to New York, to make sure she was okay and hadn't suffered any complications or setbacks during and after her flight home. Why did she do that? It's not as if she wants Ellen to recommend the hospital to all her friends, or will ever see her again. There are bad apples in every profession. I firmly believe the good far outweigh them. You couldn't pay me enough to be a nurse, and I admire the people who go into that profession and dedicate their lives to helping others. | ||
| Simon Bestwick (Simon_b) Username: Simon_b Registered: 10-2008 Posted From: 86.24.165.182 |
Absolutely right, Barbara. I've had NHS treatment on a number of occasions, and the quality of care was always high. My grandfather was cared for by the NHS during his final illness, and was very well cared for. I also know a number of people who work in nursing, and I know how damn hard they are worked. When it comes to the poor state of the NHS, a lot of this is down to underfunding and crack-addled policy decisions. Too much of the money given to the NHS is poured into superfluous middle-management instead of where it needs to go, and cleaning duties have had to be contracted out to the lowest bidder (one of Thatcher's little wheezes, that, I believe.) They haven't done the job they should, hence the emergence of superbugs like MRSA and c. difficile. And then the privatisation freaks who caused this whole damn mess point to it as evidence that socialised medicine 'doesn't work'... grr. | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 79.70.90.156 |
GCW and myself have had some pretty terrible experiences with hospitals - we can only state what we've seen. The number of times I tried to tell a nurse or doctor something that they should have known, as was in the notes... My mother and eleven other elderly people were left alone after a meal in a nursing home whilst the on duty nurse read the newspaper. My mother fell against a fire door and trapped her fingers in it. She almost had to have her fingers amputated. The doctor at the hospital chanced trying to put her hand back together. After a series of strokes she died. Yes - there are many fine doctors and nurses out there who really work very hard and I really appreciate the effort made by most but sometimes you just wonder what on earth is going on. | ||
| Barbara Roden (Nebuly) Username: Nebuly Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 142.179.24.243 |
You're right, Ally, sometimes you do wonder: either what's going on, or why some people got into healthcare when they're patently unsuited for it. What I object to is when someone holds up a bad example (or two or three) and says 'All nurses/doctors/hospitals are thus and so.' And I'm not pointing any figers here, but I wonder why it is that when someone has a bad example of the NHS, people nod their heads and go 'Yep, you're right, the NHS has gone to hell in a handbasket', but when someone holds up a good example these same people say 'Well, I can only go by what I see', which I understand to mean that their bad example automatically and unqualifiedly trumps any good example anyone puts forward. Preventable tragedies in hospitals or health facilities are tragedies, full stop, and my heart goes out to those affected. For every tragedy, however, there are probably hundreds or thousands of unsung acts of heroism and devotion and patience and kindness. Healthcare workers see humans at their most desperate and frightened and vulnerable; I'm amazed that so many people are willing to do that day in and day out. I couldn't cope with a job where I saw death and devastating illness and sad decline and misery and fear almost every day. | ||
| Steveduffy (Steveduffy) Username: Steveduffy Registered: 05-2009 Posted From: 86.156.195.99 |
As I'm sure is the case for all of us, I find it very hard to be objective on this topic. All my opinions are filtered through our family's subjective experience of the NHS throughout my mother's terminal illness a few years ago. There was one hospital in particular... she was only there for a couple of days, as her condition worsened (in no small part due to the perfunctory levels of "care" she received) to the point where she had to be transferred, but suffice it to say I shall regret to my dying day ever leaving her there at all. However, the hospital to which she was transferred (also NHS) was marvellous, the staff were wonderful, and in the weeks leading up to her death (during which time we were all taking shifts camping out by her bedside) they couldn't have been more professional, more caring or more kind. My heart goes out to anyone whose experiences have been different: honestly it does. My one glimpse of the system when it's broken down made me more grateful than ever for the system when it works. | ||
| Gcw (Gcw) Username: Gcw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.155.105.181 |
Barbara, I do not think all Nurses/Doctors are slovenly, But I do believe standards of health care on the NHS have dropped dramatically in the last ten years or so. Perhaps I have just been unlucky, but having had three years of the wonders of the NHS, I have become somewhat cynical. I can only speak from my own personal experience, I hope that does mean something. gcw | ||
| Barbara Roden (Nebuly) Username: Nebuly Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 142.179.24.243 |
Yes, GCW, of course your own experience means a good deal. Unfortunately - and I'm not saying you're like this - when someone has a bad experience with something like the NHS, they tend to resort to the sweeping generalisation: 'The NHS is crap, it's gone to the dogs, all nurses and hospitals are the same as what I saw.' When that's patently not the case or there would, I presume, be rioting in the streets of Britain, unless apathy is Britain is widespread, which judging by the reaction to MPs' expense claims isn't the case. And as I said, people who have had a bad experience with healthcare - in Britain, here in Canada, anywhere - have a tendency to hold that up as the benchmark, and dismiss or disparage or downplay the claims of anyone who says 'Well, you know, my own experience was very different, first-class all the way.' People in Canada are always moaning about health care here, mostly about wait times. And I'm sure there are times when the moaning is justified. But when I weigh in and say that when Christopher had his heart attack last year he was being treated with a few thousand dollars'-worth of drugs within 10 minutes of being admitted to our tiny local hospital, and was in a cardiac ambulance to Kamloops as soon as one could get here from 'Loops (which is 55 miles away), and that within five days was being flown to Vancouver for an angiogram that morning, and that everyone we encountered down the line was professional, compassionate, and helpful, people don't give that as much credence as the story about someone's aunt who had to wait ten hours in an Emergency department. 'You were lucky' is the response, whereas I feel that 'You were unlucky', said to the person who had a long wait, is more apt. | ||
| Gcw (Gcw) Username: Gcw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.155.105.181 |
I am genuinely glad your health care and experience was good Barbara, god knows I wouldn't wish a bad experience on anyone. I am not the sort of person who wants to put down the NHS...I would like to believe it is indeed a great British institution, but sadly,in its current state I cannot. My experience are, I admit only based on my local hospital, and indeed a lot of the staff have been very helpful and compassionate. But the facts cannot be denied from what I have seen, the hospital is unclean, organisation is often lacking, my Mum was left shivering under a thin blanket in an 'induction' ward suffering from an undiagnosed brain tumour' for hours. My Dad currently being treated for cancer sent all around the hospital as we were constantly sent to the wrong place for scans asking me if we could 'just go home' because at 74, he was tired and had enough. I said no, because if we didn't see it through we would simply have had to come back and go through all the shit again. I have lots of tales, but I just can't be bothered to dredge them all up again. Sorry, Barbara, i feel I am at ground zero on this subject right now, I live in the UK and this is what I have to deal with on a regular basis, I know what I am talking about. gcw | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.241.143 |
I've seen both sides of this. I used to live with a nurse and saw the utter strain the job put on her; she had children die in her arms on a regular basis and many were the times I saw her simply break down because she cared so much. She refused promotion regularly because she wanted to do hands-on nursing instead of paperwork. On the other hand, my son was born with an infection because my wife couldn't be induced due to a lack of bed in the maternity ward. Watford Hospital, where he was born, was simply shit: blood in the showers, hardfaced, uncaring nurses and midwives, shit catering for the patients, rubbish patient care. Like GCW, I have a list of stories about it, but there's no point going into it here. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.241.143 |
Fortunately I've had better experiences at Leeds Hospital, when I had my suspected heart attack (which turned out to be pericarditus) and on the two occasions we've had to rush Charlie there. It certainly seems to depend on the hospital as to the level and quality of care one receives. For instance, my local GP is rubbish - I suffered for 3 days after the suspected heart attack because I couldn't get an appointment and when the pericarditus reoccured months later I was told it was impossible for it to return and I had a chest infection. I think this is part of the problem with the NHS; it's too variable, no real quality control. A postcode lottery. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.171.129.71 |
I know someone who used to be a staff matron at a hospital, worked in the NHS all her life, still works in a charitable capacity fundraising for it. She's disgusted by the fall in standards. What used to be basic standards in her day are now aims and aspirations. My own experiences of the NHS have been mixed. When I was especially ill with ME but had yet to be diagnosed (and even then, we're talking early 1990s), I was taken to pyshiotherapy and left in a stiff-backed chair in the corridor outside the unit for four hours. When I finally got someone's attention I was the one who was berated for being in the wrong seat out in the corridor - the seat I'd been put in by a nurse. Having said that, I then had a speedy and good-humoured time having probes inserted in various orificases some time later. Staff were friendlier in this instance too. Though when I was examined for a lump a couple of years ago, the doctor told me quite openly he didn't care whether it was cancerous or not. I do think there's an attitude in the NHS, probably mostly but not uniquely amongst a certain higher level of staff, that is akin to a boys' own club, and that you get more attentive care from a doctor you're paying. Recently in the UK the director of an NHS hospital terribly contaminated with bugs and in all round dire state, patients dying as a result of that, was given a six figure sum of money (I believe) to leave her post. In the US she'd've been in the penitentiary awaiting trial for murder. What's the answer? I don't know. Funds have been thrown at the NHS recently, but so much has gone on new tiers of beaurocracy that it doesn't trickle down to patient care quickly enough. A job with health insurance included is a fine one, and I know people who havong had it feel terribly worried when they leave the job and no longer have it. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.171.129.71 |
Certain initiatives brought in bt the 22 year-old policy advisors working for the government are fine on paper, dumb in real life. Like, for instance, their new idea of GP surgeries working like car exhaust centres. You drop in anywhere you like, NHS QUACK FIX or whatever it'll be called. See a different GP every time. Sounds good. All slick and computerised. But your regular GP's the one who sees you're looking yellower than the last time you saw her, that you've put on a lot of weight or lost it, that the cough's changed and sounds deeper and rather dangerous. Mixed gender wards was another not-great idea. My octogenarian gran - whom I'd taken to hospital after she'd fallen down the stairs and her GP, when he'd finally come around, used his x-ray vision to diagnose her as ok but bruised (she'd a fractured spine and probable concussion) - she was in a mixed ward toward the end of her life, not fed, and had to suffer watching some letcherous old man masturbating around the ward. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.171.129.71 |
Barbara, is the Canadian healthcare system a free one, as the NHS over here is? | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.171.129.71 |
Shit. Britain elects its first fascist MEP. The BNP have a seat... | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.142.66 |
GCW – the overall decline in NHS care over the last decade is fairly indisputable unless you're a spin doctor. The reasons are complex, and only idiots would claim that the decline was an inevitable result of its being a free service – I think it had a lot to do with Tony Blair's destructive influence on health policy – but the realities do have to be faced. Not everyone's recent experience of the NHS has been bad, but too many people's has. Mark, you say: "A job with health insurance included is a fine one." I seriously dispute this. Who pays for that health policy? It comes out of your salary, to the tune of large amounts of lost income. Last year, having compared the cost of my company health insurance policy (and it varies greatly from one employee to another) with the coverage it actually offered, I told my employer it made more sense for me to save the money and put it aside, so that if I really needed private healthcare I would have that money to pay for it instead of having spent it on a policy that didn't cover the treatment I was most likely to need. I have a chronic illness (diabetes), and my policy did not cover any kind of treatment for problems arising from it. The policy was therefore about as much use to me as a condom to the Pope, and vastly more expensive. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.142.66 |
Mark – shit, just seen your last posting. This is very bad indeed. | ||
| Mick Curtis (Mick) Username: Mick Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.177.173.249 |
The BNP have a seat...  | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.175.68 |
Representing Yorkshire and Humber. Which demonstrates the meltdown of the Labour vote in its regions of core support. For every BNP voter, there are over 100 former Labour voters who didn't vote at all. Shame on New Labour for shitting on the working class. Shame on those who voted for a fascist party without taking the trouble to find out what its politics really are. Many thousands of people in Yorkshire and Humber will take to the streets tomorrow to protest at this travesty of democratic representation: a party committed to smashing democracy takes advantage of its processes to gain power and wealth. Shame, horror and grief. Wherever you are, make your anger at this sick event visible. | ||
| Barbara Roden (Nebuly) Username: Nebuly Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 142.179.24.243 |
Hi Mark: Yes, the Canadian healthcare system is a free one. Most jobs come with a benefits package which includes healthcare, dental plan, a certain number of visits per year to chiropractors, physios, and the like, a visit to an eye doctor per year, plus reimbursement for a percentage of prescriptions and eyeglasses. If you don't have this included in your benefits - as in when you're self-employed or unemployed - you pay so much per month based on income to your province's medical plan (in B.C. it's the MSP or Medical Services Plan). It's capped at about $120.00 per month per family; if you make below a certain level it's free. Doesn't cover dental or prescriptions, though. Regardless of where you get your coverage from, no one is turned away from hospitals or treatment, or receives different care if something happens. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.26.61.140 |
>>Representing Yorkshire and Humber. Where else? I'm ashamed of my native county. Reactionary idiocy abounds. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.216.202 |
And now the North-West. I feel sick. Both MEPs are hardcore fascists with a history of extremism. Protest, protest! This could be the beginning of a very dark time indeed. Let's send the fascists back to the holes they crawled out of. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.241.143 |
Yet another example of ordinary people becoming disenfranchised from the political process. I heard someone on the radio this morning cliaming that a lot of the BNP votes were protest votes. Jesus, what kind of moron votes for fascists as a protest? As for Yorkshire, I've been here for 5 years and encountered far too much racism and homophobia to be comfortable with. Normal people in office jobs using the immortal line "I'm not racist, but..." and then condemning an entire ethnic group without so much as pausing for breath. Terrifying. The BNP thrive on this kind of thing. | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 79.70.30.94 |
I feel sick too Joel. Stayed up to watch it on the telly. The presenters looked shocked and said so. I had hoped that people would turn to the other parties like the lib dems and green but no. People who voted labour all their life turned away from them and now this sorry state of affairs. | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.22.226.223 |
"Jesus, what kind of moron votes for fascists as a protest?" It happened here in Belgium a decade or so ago - the outcome was dubbed "Black Sunday", which says it all. The Flemish Bloc basically won the elections back then, but a 'cordon sanitaire' was erected around the party by the media and other political parties alike and they were never allowed to participate in the formation of a new government. There have been a couple more black Sundays since then, but judging from yesterday's results they are finally on the wane. The Catholic conservatives are back in business and I don't know if that's a good thing or not. | ||
| Karim Ghahwagi (Karim) Username: Karim Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.60.106.5 |
So how many people voted for the BNP exactly? Disturbing indeed. | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 79.70.30.94 |
Haven't got the figures to hand as I watched them as they came in on the telly. I was very shocked by the high number though, Karim. | ||
| Alansjf (Alansjf) Username: Alansjf Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 94.194.134.45 |
Not sure if this is overall or just for their Yorkshire & Humber candidate, but the figure I heard was 120,129 votes. Frightening. Then you hear about Griffin's plans to form alliances with other European far right parties, and the fear just grows... | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.8.175.44 |
Sometimes I hate to be proved right. I was saying in work the other day that BNP would get seats in the election because of voter apathy and protest voting. less said about that though... NHS vs Private... I worked for nearly 9 years in the offices for BUPA Hospitals (and Spire Healthcare after the sale) and now I'm working in the offices for NHS. There is a huge difference in the emphasis for the two organisations. In the private sector the focus is simply to get more profit. Flowers etc for the lobby are calculated costs and surgeons get paid tons - when I started in 2002 a surgeon performing a 15 minute tonsillectomy would be paid £800. I was tempted to just learn how to do one of those and work one day a month for 5 hours or so and enjoy the rest of my time. There are times of extreme pressure and everyone in the office was on the edge of being overworked. There was very little time for slacking (although I could always find it when necessary - the old trick of letting people think your job takes longer than it does still works, especially when your boss doesn't understand exactly what you do) In the NHS, the main difference is the absolute lack of pressure. I've gone from filling a central role in the billing process where I could (and did at least once) create millions of pounds worth of billing errors overnight with one keystroke to feeling like a microspic cog in a machine the size of texas. Looking round the office, several people are always on the internet (including me, although I'm in the local library now) and I reckon that you could cut the workforce by one third and get the same level of service out of the office - without overworking anyone. I'm in the information department so basically I'm responsible for making pretty graphs and trying to keep the data accurate on the database. There is a lot of wasted resource in the NHS and so much money could be redirected to supplying more nurses and efficient cleaners. Obviously, with today's economic climate, I ain't going to rock the boat. With luck, I'll be out of there fairly soon in any case - I've been invited to the interview for the job I mentioned a few weeks ago. Part 1 tomorrow night where a group of children who use the service will interview me and have their say, then the proper formal interview on Thursday. Hopefully I won't burst into a chorus of Whitney Houston mid interview. | ||
| Karim Ghahwagi (Karim) Username: Karim Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.60.106.5 |
'Not sure if this is overall or just for their Yorkshire & Humber candidate, but the figure I heard was 120,129 votes. Frightening' Indeed. Here in Denmark Messerschmidt got 260,000 plus personal votes- this is out of a population of 5.5 million with a turnout of 59 percent. While not as far right as the BNP, his 'policy' is pretty much based on anti-immigration issues. It looks like there is a number of European countries who have 'contributed' one or two seats to far right movements. Peoples' memories are too short... | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.171.129.73 |
I just tried accessing this thread on a library computer and was told the content was unacceptable. Meanwhile, beside me, there was a guy who smelled like he hadn't washed after his morning wank and who was freely accessing BNP sites... Go figure. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.47 |
Nearly time for part 1 of my interview. God I'm nervous. First time I've had to prepare to be interviewed by children for a job | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.241.143 |
How did you get on, Weber? | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.171.129.73 |
Ha. Can you imagine how politicians would cope being interviewed by children? hope it was good, Marc. | ||
| Gcw (Gcw) Username: Gcw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.155.105.181 |
Interviewed by children??? Call me old fashioned, but I don't think children are responsible enough, or should be expected to conduct an interview where it could affect someones job. I gather the 'real' interview comes after but i sniff the whiff of 'right-on PC' daftness here... (I am off work & grouchy today - indeed, I am a bit scared...I have just started using ear plugs for band practice to protect my lugs. Woke up this morning and I am about 95% DEAF in my right ear. I think it may be wax compacted by the ear plug..I bloody hope so...Trouble is, my LEFT ear is the one with tinnitus and reduced hearing to you can imagine the quiet-but-whiney world I am in right now.) Are you keeping up? - gcw  | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.47 |
It went quite well. I'd met two of the young people before on the weekend groups I volunteer on. The youngerst one was 16 so it wasn't really children interviewing. It was more of an informal chat in any case. The job is to look after the young people and help them integrate so asking them to help with the recruitment process is a logical step. Main formal bit is tomorrow at 2. | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 79.70.95.52 |
Good luck Weber. I see after their failure to gather on the Cottage Green, Westminster, the BNP are going to have a press conference in Manchester. I think that women the BNP 'minder' pushed brutally to one side is in hospital. I'll go and check. | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 79.70.10.56 |
I'm just reading an article about Nick Griffin. He calls his rottweilers, Anne and Frank. Absolutely unbelievable. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.171.129.72 |
There's the work of a comedy genius going on on Twitter, you know. Someone's nicked the name The Real Nick Griffen and is twittering as him. Posts such as: 'Off for a curry.' Attending Pakistani orphanage fundraiser.' Of course, it's cranking up the fascists, which is why it's so much fun... GCW, hope the hearing's better and you've de-lugged your lugs. Yes, wax build up is something to hope for! Best of luck. | ||
| Gcw (Gcw) Username: Gcw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.151.123.69 |
'tis indeed the wax I didn't get your email mate...Perhaps you have an out of date address? Try this, (minus the nospam blah...) garycolewilkin@NOSPAM)btinternet.com gcw | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.171.129.72 |
Righty-ho. Will try again! Think will be of interest, me dear. |