| Author | Message | ||
     Steve Bacon (Stevebacon) Username: Stevebacon Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 90.210.209.176 |
I was interested to read the Shocklines thread that Mort Castle started, and his comments about good writing and good reading, and the relative attraction of Dan Brown, Shaun Hutson, etc, and it led me to start thinking about what makes something personally enjoyable to read. A lot of it depends on what mood I'm in; sometimes I want to read something a little ambiguous or oblique, other times I just want straightforward storytelling prose, so my own requirements differ depending on what I'm looking for at that particular time. Although I have to say, my favourite writers tend to offer up something that sits exactly between those two extremes. The most recent example I can think of is Joel's PS novella, The WItnesses Are Gone. To me, that fulfilled my requirements on all levels. As a lot of you are writers, I just wondered what technical elements you think are important for good writing; what specific points do you avoid, and in your own work, what things do you (probably unconsciously) ensure are there? As well as being interested in this on a critical level, I'd also like to get some insights into what traps to avoid in my own fledgling writing. I'm aware that not everyone IS a writer, so I'd also like to ask, as a reader, what would make you roll your eyes and tut if you came across it in a book? Are there any techniques that annoy you? | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.241.143 |
Good question. I'll have to have a little think about this one...I'm sure GF or Strantzas will be along any minute, though. :-) | ||
| Gcw (Gcw) Username: Gcw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.150.109.19 |
Don't mention Hutson! If I could just sidetrack a bit Steve, one of the most entertaining horror books I ever read was The Fungus by the late John Brosnan, it was gloriously terrible but I loved it & it had a great buggery scene too. Crap thats crap is Simon Clarks pompous, clunky, Night Of The Triffids - a seriously BAD book. gcw | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 89.168.154.205 |
I think Guy N Smith is more fun to read than Shaun Hutson. Probably a world-view thing coming through in Guy's stuff that's more pleasant than Shaun's. But as for the substantive part of the question . . . it's sunny out, and I've just spent the morning scribbling away in longhand, have a few pages to type up, and I may have to engage the brain to answer the question. Probably a bit beyond me today. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.12.129.226 |
I hate pomposity in a book. That's guaranteed to switch me off totally - regardless of the pedigree of the book. there are certain books where the writer seems to be screaming "look at me, I've just made a clever literary allusion, aren't I so clever!" in such a self consious OTT and downright pompous way that I just want to punch the writer in the face. Some I would happily dig up out of their graves to punch them - just for the satisfaction. I do like clever writing, but it has to be non-pompous with the cleverness. I hope that makes sense to anyone apart from me. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.239.57 |
Me, I read piles of feature scripts every year, and I wrestle with this same question. I can attest to it, that yes, 99% of what I read is crap, garbage, worthless, forgettable. But why?... Hard-and-fast rules defy actuality, for the most part. I have culled a few elements that I think make for a great screenplay, I think, and I think they can apply to any writing: -- What I've coined as a "Relationship-in-Transition": all feature films are about life-changing events - if they weren't, they'd be TV episodes. The most crucial part of that life-changing event, is the nature of a *central, vital relationship that is transitioning* - the transitioning from one state to another state of this relationship, is the vital character arc of a film. Sometimes it's the relationship of a character to him/herself, to another, both... but usually it's a single vital R-I-T, and the other transitionings are minor/supporting, and not as vital. -- A degree of pathos to engage the reader. A child weeping and rushing down the street to save his puppy-dog's life, who's just been hit by a car... sure, this is high-pathos indeed. But there has to be some way to emotionally connect with the major character - *their struggle has to mentally engage the reader* - and often how this is accomplished, is through... -- Irony IN that struggle. Or, a struggle that has no good choices to it - a puzzle that needs solving. Overt puzzles that need solving are mysteries, where we literally don't know what exactly happened (blatant puzzles = the realm of flat protags, btw - the emotionless/detached-from-it-all detective); an overt struggle with no good choices, is the realm of actioners - James Bond can't possibly get out of this predicament, but he does. But irony isn't always a puzzle: Michael Corleone doesn't want anything to do with the sordid, gangster side of his family... Vito shares that view, and struggles his whole life IN that world to see Michael doesn't stay a part of it... then Vito's hit, and Michael is compelled to avenge him by delving deep into that sordid world for its tools for revenge... so delving, he becomes intoxicated with - tempted by - the power that very world affords... Vito sees the terrible irony of his decisions as he slowly dies, that the ends sometimes go opposite of the means you employ... the back-and-forth irony, keeps the reader constantly engaged with its moral/physical puzzles, and these "unanswerable questions" are what keep a reader reading.... A starting point for some theories on it all. | ||
| Chris_morris (Chris_morris) Username: Chris_morris Registered: 04-2008 Posted From: 98.220.186.44 |
On a sentence level, good writing is simplicity. What's the fewest words you can use to express your idea? Of course it's always pleasing when those chosen words contain surprises: a beautiful analogy, perhaps, or a pithy turn of phrase. Sometimes just a few unusual word choices do enough to turn a banal sentence into a good one. On the story level, good writing is still about simplicity and surprise, but it's also about creating a seamless dream, a world in which the reader can immerse himself, and about creating a character the reader can identify with. Of course there is a certain amount of "entertaining" involved -- that is, writing is always to some extent a performance. But if you merely get the reader to care about your protagonist, write good sentences, include believable surprises, and don't make the kinds of mistakes that cause readers to emerge from the dream ... do these things, and you'll sell a lot of stories, my friend. | ||
| Chris_morris (Chris_morris) Username: Chris_morris Registered: 04-2008 Posted From: 98.220.186.44 |
>>what would make you roll your eyes and tut if you came across it in a book? The one thing that bugs me the most -- and of course this is just subjective -- is when I can detect (while I'm reading) that the writer was making up his story as he went along. It's true, of course, that many (most?) writers make things up as they go along; I don't begrudge a writer that. No, what I hate is when they haven't revised well enough -- when they haven't gone back to make a seamless whole. In that case, the story remains piecemeal, emotionally incoherent; setups have no payoffs (or the wrong payoffs), plotlines have dead ends, minor characters/scenes exist for no purpose. This is probably my biggest problem, for instance, with Donnie Darko. Others, of course, disagree. The really weird thing is that Aickman is one of my favorite authors, and he does these sorts of things (leaves plotlines dangling, adds scenes and chracaters for no distinct purpose, etc), and I love him for it. I have no real idea how he gets away with this, but somehow he does. I'm not a hypocrite. I am vast and contain multitudes. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.249.123 |
I think Aickman knows what he's doing. The choice of material is governed by a feel for symbolism and atmosphere. If he leaves 'plots' unresolved it's because he doesn't care for them, and the enigmatic material is there for other reasons. As a reader I like that. I don't need loose narrative ends tied up. I'm not Columbo. Having said that, I hate it when Aickman shovels in some quite extraneous bit of vicious social or personal commentary (as in the first half of 'Never Visit Venice' and some of the dialogue in 'Larger Than Oneself') simply because he's in a bitchy mood. That isn't bad writing, though, it's just being a pain in the arse. | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 79.78.57.171 |
'I think Aickman knows what he's doing. The choice of material is governed by a feel for symbolism and atmosphere. If he leaves 'plots' unresolved it's because he doesn't care for them, and the enigmatic material is there for other reasons. As a reader I like that. I don't need loose narrative ends tied up. I'm not Columbo.' Exactly my thoughts on him. | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 79.78.57.171 |
And I prefer a little mystery with my prose. I don't want everything explained. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.26.61.140 |
Allow me to perform a tango by way of describing what constitutes good dancing. | ||
| Chris_morris (Chris_morris) Username: Chris_morris Registered: 04-2008 Posted From: 98.220.186.44 |
>>I think Aickman knows what he's doing. The choice of material is governed by a feel for symbolism and atmosphere. If he leaves 'plots' unresolved it's because he doesn't care for them, and the enigmatic material is there for other reasons. As a reader I like that. I don't need loose narrative ends tied up. I'm not Columbo. I quite agree. But I still find it amazing that he pulls it off at all. All those loose ends, the aimlessness: I find it off-putting in other writers, but somehow Aickman gets it right. I agree that he's doing it on purpose, but I don't think that's enough to explain it. I've tried to do it on purpose, and I can't get it right. It's a skill, apparently, that few writers have. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.241.143 |
Why don't we just dance about architecture? | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.26.61.140 |
Aickman is the real deal. His is the language of the subconscious. It can't be faked because it has the most merciless and unbullshitting of judges: our own subconscious. It's like writing well for children. | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.187.63 |
Fritz Leiber called Aickman a "weatherman of the subconscious" (if I remember correctly). | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 79.78.94.73 |
I read THE SWORDS from COLD HAND IN MINE when I went to bed last night and had the strangest of dreams. It's always Tuttle and Aickman who do that to me. Incredible prose. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.241.143 |
Aickman is the real deal. His is the language of the subconscious. It can't be faked because it has the most merciless and unbullshitting of judges: our own subconscious. Well put, sir. | ||
| Steve Bacon (Stevebacon) Username: Stevebacon Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 90.210.209.176 |
To me, good writing is whatever you want at that time. I like Aickman's dreamlike suggestions. I also think that different stories require different types of writing. For example, Ramsey's short stories give me a totally different feeling to that which I get from his novels. The same goes for Michael Marshall Smith. Is this a conscious thing? Or are they adapting their storytelling skills to accomodate a longer work? I've only ever read short fiction from Aickman. What are his novels like? Is the style sustained over a novel-length? | ||
| Simon Strantzas (Nomis) Username: Nomis Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 99.227.90.149 |
Writing short stories and novels are two different beasts. I'm not surprised that authors' voices change between them. If anything, short stories are closer to poetry than novels. | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 79.78.100.94 |
Totally agreed with Simon and the poetry comment when we chatted about this a week or so ago. | ||
| Steve Bacon (Stevebacon) Username: Stevebacon Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 90.210.209.176 |
I was reading Paul Meloy's Black Static short story earlier - man, it just begs to be read aloud. The words in that piece are wonderful. Definitely poetic. | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.197.251 |
Regardless of personal taste in style, the bare minimum I expect when opening a book is a decent command of the language. Unfortunately, I've seen more than a few books lately which I can open at random and find recurring spelling mistakes - not typos, but actual cases of an author not knowing how to spell a simple word - and no sense of structure at all. Commas where none is needed, none where they should be, semi-colons thrown in willy-nilly, or in place of colons... that sort of thing. Not liking a certain style is one thing, but 'writers' lacking the most basic of writing skills is something I have no time for. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.241.143 |
Huw, why do you buy these books? I'm very chhosy with the books I buy, so encounter this kind of thing very rarely. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.241.143 |
CHOOSY!!!! I want a fucking edit button! | ||
| Stu (Stu) Username: Stu Registered: 04-2008 Posted From: 86.29.188.7 |
Going back to the poetry thing: “I'm a failed poet. Maybe every novelist wants to write poetry first, finds he can't and then tries the short story which is the most demanding form after poetry. And failing at that, only then does he take up novel writing.” William Faulkner | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
But Faulkner was a writer. Unlike many novelists. | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.188.9 |
I don't buy so many books these days, Zed, partly because of the atrocious writing I've encountered and partly due to financial and health issues. I used to buy as much as possible, both out of a love of the genre and out of a (perhaps misguided) effort to support the various small presses (I soon learned they aren't all as discerning as, say, PS and Ash Tree). But I'm not just talking about 'real' published books - there's also a lot of horrendous crap 'published' on the internet. | ||
| Jonathan (Jonathan) Username: Jonathan Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.143.178.131 |
That sounds like a case of atrocious editing too. A good editor would have picked up on those things. I never read material published on the net I'm afraid. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
Okay, Huw, I get it. You're talking about my stuff.  | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.188.9 |
No I'm bloody not! Your stuff is well written! Sorry if I'm being grouchy. I'm hurting like hell lately, and maybe it's coming out in my posts. I'll go and take a Valium. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
Sorry to hear that, Huw. Take care. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
Just kidding with you, Huw, old chap. And, yes, I'm sorry to hear about your continuing ill-health. | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.189.136 |
Thank you, Joel and Zed. You're both cool dudes. | ||
| Simon Strantzas (Nomis) Username: Nomis Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 38.113.181.169 |
??? You've obviously met neither. | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.191.233 |
I didn't say they were awesome, like you, Simon - just cool. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.47 |
Only if they've been stored in a fridge for a month... | ||
| Michael_kelly (Michael_kelly) Username: Michael_kelly Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 74.14.14.57 |
Huw, very sorry to hear you've been ill. Try and take care. | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 79.78.49.152 |
Hope you are feeling better soon Huw. | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.199.62 |
Thanks very much, Michael and Allybird. (You're both really cool too!) I've been having sudden jolts and spasms out of the blue since yesterday, so I'm hoping it's a temporary side effect of this new medicine I'm taking. It was really embarrassing on my way home today, walking down the street and jerking all over the place, I can tell you. Thanks again, everyone, and sorry to go on about it. | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.199.62 |
Oh damn, I think I've just left myself wide open for a Joel joke. We need an edit button here... ;-) | ||
| John Llewellyn Probert (John_l_probert) Username: John_l_probert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 62.31.153.8 |
I think you've just done it again there as well, Huw! | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 79.70.75.131 |
Tomorrow is another day Huw! That really doesn't sound right but you know what I mean.  | ||
| Richard_gavin (Richard_gavin) Username: Richard_gavin Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 65.110.174.71 |
Hope you're feeling better, Huw. Regarding poor writing: If I could offer some formula that I look for as a reader and strive for as an author, I would. For me, the process is so visceral, so deep-rooted, that it's difficult for me to define. I lead with my gut instinct most of the time. But I will offer a few points that relate to my own writing: -I love language. I love the way unusual words, the ones we seldom see in prose and almost never hear in our daily lives, affect our consciousness. They drag us out of the mundane white noise of our routines and make us pay attention. Poetry and many sacred texts utilize this same principle. -I loathe pretention. I hope to challenge readers but not frustrate them. I'll employ strange language and stranger ideas, but these will be mixed into a concrete narrative that is populated by real, flesh-and-blood people. -I like meeting readers halfway. I won't coddle them or insult their intelligence by explaining absolutely everything. Hopefully I leave just enough unexplained to allow them to project their own thoughts and feelings onto the story. I will never present something that is so hopelessly cryptic that a reader has no chance of comprehending what they just read. -I try to flip every convention and cliche I possibly can while still forming a cohesive story that will entertain a reader. -In short, I try to write stories that are unlike anything I've read. I may fall flat at times, but I'd rather strive to give readers something they couldn't find anywhere else than play it safe by just echoing the work of past masters and filling my work with dead expressions like "the sky was pitch-black" or "it was raining cats and dogs outside." | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.186.68 |
Thanks, Ally and Richard. I'm not jerking so much today, thank God... Interesting points regarding writing, Richard - they all sound good to me. | ||
| Steve Bacon (Stevebacon) Username: Stevebacon Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 90.210.209.176 |
Nicely summed up, Richard. Thanks for that. I think your observation that the process is 'deep-rooted' is an important one. I've been trying to analyse what appeals to me as a reader, and implement that into my own writing, and the points you highlight match my own preferences (as does your writing). | ||
| Richard_gavin (Richard_gavin) Username: Richard_gavin Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 65.110.174.71 |
Thank you kindly, Steve. I really appreciate it. |