| Author | Message | ||
     Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.147.50.90 |
Is it me, or is Fritz Lieber's Smoke Ghost the absolute and utter template for almost all of Ramsey's work? You can see it there, all laid out like a blueprint. Just read it today for the first time you see and thought it was fantastic; gave me that old fashioned pang of proper horror. (I'm not meaning to be mean, btw, just observant. We have most of us borrowed from Ramsey, after all, at some time or other.)  | ||
| Griff (Griff) Username: Griff Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.100 |
I haven't read that story since I was a teenager! | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.147.50.90 |
Found this on the net; 'Ramsey Campbell cites him as his single biggest influence' That'll be it then. | ||
| Griff (Griff) Username: Griff Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.100 |
 | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.249.146 |
Tony, SMOKE GHOST is one of the best short horror stories ever written, IMHO. And, yes, it was obviously hugely influential on Ramsey (who cites Leiber as a major influence). Leiber's utterly superb. Read more of him! | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.147.50.90 |
I have read a few - I've just never managed to get a good antho of his stuff. Weirdly, one of his stories in an antho Ramsey put together really influenced me, too; the one about the two women in the room at night. Might have been a vampire - lamia? - story. I adored that tale, the feel of it. Still an influence, actually. | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.180.184 |
That'll be Dark Wings. As Gary pointed out, Ramsey has always listed Leiber as one of his chief influences. | ||
| Stu (Stu) Username: Stu Registered: 04-2008 Posted From: 86.29.107.46 |
I remember being pretty underwhelmed with Smoke Ghost but that may just have been the weight of expectation. I'm intending to give it a second chance at some point and after reading this thread I might move it nearer to the top of the TBR pile. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.24.122.40 |
I've never been a big fan of that tale, either. Thought it was just me. I preferred The Hound. And Dark Wings is superb. | ||
| Stu (Stu) Username: Stu Registered: 04-2008 Posted From: 86.29.107.46 |
>>I've never been a big fan of that tale, either. And here was me expecting to get lynched. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.156.110.243 |
Here's me with the noose, Stu. 'Smoke Ghost' is a manifesto of urban weird fiction and one of its greatest examples. Also (in the context of its time) a beautifully-judged attack on religion and militarism. It may be that the sheer weight of subtext weighs it down a little, but I think Leiber's originality and evocative writing brings it off. Weird fiction would never be the same again. The only better stories of this kind are also written by Leiber. Tony, I don't think 'Dark Wings' is about a lamia. But it took me three readings to see what it probably is about. Go back to it! It's an updating of a classic theme, but not really the vampire theme. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.147.50.90 |
Oh, it wasn't that amazing; just for it's time it felt quite prescient, and really does have the nugget that Ramsey later became. Considering it came from an old Weird Tales it really has something, I think, especially in the descriptions and general atmosphere. It's like the guy gave Ramsey his cogs. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.156.110.243 |
No no no!!! 'Smoke Ghost' was published in UNKNOWN. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.156.110.243 |
Not that I'm a nerd or anything. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.147.50.90 |
Sorry. But, you know, that kind of thing...!  But like I said; the story is about 70 years and doesn't feel it, and really, a lot of its effects are still being used. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
I was blown away by it too. I didn't know it was from 1941! I need to re-evalute the past. Philip K Dick's 50's stories too. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.24.122.40 |
I recall Zed telling me that the film AFTER HOURS might be the single most influential piece on his stuff. Although we're all influenced by lots of stuff, can a single work alone account of the main thrust of any author's work? Do we all have seminal, landmark pieces that we draw upon repeatedly? | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.182.122 |
I agree with Joel, and will even offer to hold the rope while he's lynching Stu (and Gary, while we're at it) that Smoke Ghost is a "manifesto of urban weird fiction and one of its greatest examples." Reading it on a dark, ominous night by candlelight, with a typhoon raging outside, made for one of the most potent reading experiences I've ever had. I think it's an incredibly good story. I didn't notice any subtext about militarism though, so I'll have to read it again. I'm sure we did this fairly recently on the old board, but anyway, here are some more Leiber tales I'd recommend: The Button Molder Dark Wings Belsen Express A Bit of the Dark World The Hill and the Hole Mariana The Power of the Puppets The Girl with the Hungry Eyes Gonna Roll the Bones Black Glass Coming Attraction The Ghost Light Alice and the Allergy In the X-ray Black Has Its Charms Richmond, Late September, 1849 Midnight in the Mirror World The Dreams of Albert Moreland The Black Gondolier The Spider The Thirteenth Step A Visitor from Back East There's a list for you, Tony. I really envy you if there are any you haven't read up there! And that's not including his excellent Fafhrd and Grey Mouser tales... | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.100 |
"Oh, it wasn't that amazing..." Yes, it was and is, and without it I mightn't have found the direction I took. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.244.67 |
The facets of SMOKE GHOST wouldn't work for everyone who read it. You have to be primed by other things before a particular artform works for you. Just as we were primed before we liked Ramsey's stuff. What IS this primer? | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.24.122.40 |
One's psychological profile, I guess. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.244.67 |
Or did we all eat hedgehog flavour crisps? | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.147.50.90 |
Ramsey; I needed to put in an italic there. It was amazing but not that amazing. It often seems that you look for the negative in my posts, you know, or often find ways of countering what I say. It feels odd, and has had (and still does) the effect of making me brace myself before reading your responses.  | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.147.50.90 |
And I need to add; it became more amazing still in the interim in which I found out how old it was and that last post. And anyway, I am entitled to my opinion, even if it is actually wrong, and prone to change. | ||
| Griff (Griff) Username: Griff Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.100 |
"The facets of SMOKE GHOST wouldn't work for everyone who read it. You have to be primed by other things before a particular artform works for you. Just as we were primed before we liked Ramsey's stuff. What IS this primer?" I've wondered about that. It worries me if truth be told. | ||
| Griff (Griff) Username: Griff Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.100 |
Do you have any interests outside of literature, Albie? | ||
| marksamuels (Marksamuels) Username: Marksamuels Registered: 05-2008 Posted From: 80.177.104.153 |
For me, it was the paradigm shift in "Smoke Ghost" that was amazing. Leiber modernised the ghost story by giving it a gritty noir edge centred in a modern urban environment rather than in cathedrals or old houses. Mark S. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 83.98.9.4 |
I've never even heard of it. Just thought I'd add my contribution to this thread. | ||
| John_l_probert (John_l_probert) Username: John_l_probert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 90.208.48.91 |
IN THE X-RAY is one I've always been fond of. I've got a story somewhere inspired by it where an MRI scanner reveals things best not ever seen. | ||
| Griff (Griff) Username: Griff Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.100 |
You weren't inspired by Fiday Night Specials in A&E by any chance, JPL? I'm facinated by this. | ||
| John_l_probert (John_l_probert) Username: John_l_probert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 90.208.48.91 |
Griff I have to say I worked in A&E for a year but I don't quite know what you mean? | ||
| Griff (Griff) Username: Griff Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.100 |
Never mind, JPL. I've got my UCAS forms back. Can you give me your impressions of life as a pharmacist in the NHS. Thanks. I'm worried, it's like being 17 again! | ||
| Matt_cowan (Matt_cowan) Username: Matt_cowan Registered: 04-2008 Posted From: 68.249.106.58 |
I just read Smoke Ghost about a year ago and really loved it. I like how it seems so subtle at first. Very creepy. I have only read one other Leiber story, and it was good too. I should seek out some of those ones listed above. | ||
| Simon Strantzas (Nomis) Username: Nomis Registered: 05-2008 Posted From: 38.113.181.169 |
I have admit I'm not the world's biggest Leiber fan, but "Smoke Ghost" is a tale I've returned to more than once. The image of that bag haunts me every time I travel through the city. The ending I felt for a long time was a bit anti-climactic, but I've changed my mind about it in later years as my eye's grown more critical. Joel's too modest to admit it, but he has an article on ol' Fritz in the latest WORMWOOD. Joel, I wish you wrote an article every issue of WW, as they are always my favourite parts. Oh, and can you lend me some money? | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.249.146 |
I have admit I'm not the world's biggest Leiber fan, I knew there would have to be something about you I didn't like, Simon - besides the big hands and raging ego, that is. | ||
| Simon Strantzas (Nomis) Username: Nomis Registered: 05-2008 Posted From: 38.113.181.169 |
Hey, I didn't say I didn't like Leiber's work, just that I'm not a giant fan. "Smoke Ghost" and "The Black Gondolier" are two major influences on my fiction -- something that I think will be quite clear to all when my collection arrives in September (available now for preorder!!! http://www.humdrumming.co.uk | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.249.146 |
What, you have a collection coming out? You kept that quiet, didn't you? I didn't even realise you wrote; you tell me nothing these days. I don't even know why we are still together. I'm off to stay with my mother for a few days. Your dinner is in next door's dog. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.100 |
Sorry, Tony. I'd say that "Smoke Ghost" pretty well invents the modern tale of supernatural terror, where the familiar urban landscape is the source of rather than the setting for the manifestation. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.147.50.90 |
It's ok Ramsey. I'm hypersensitive, or proud, one of the two. It doesn't help. The thing is, Smoke Ghost has probably had a lot of its effect reduced by the fact so much since has copied it, as is the fate of so many other influential works. | ||
| Mick Curtis (Mick) Username: Mick Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.159.156.247 |
It's similar with CITIZEN KANE, in a way - when I rave about it, friends who've not previously seen it watch it and say "yeah, but I've seen all that before". Not in 1941 they hadn't... | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.249.146 |
You know, I only watched Citizen kane for the first time about 3 or 4 years ago, and it still blew me away. I've never understood folk who can't see the genius of something ahead of its time; it's right there for you to see/hear/read. Smoke Ghost is one of the key texts in horror fiction. As you read it, you can feel the whole genre dragging itself away from the gothic past and nestling into the present. Inspired by this thread, I re-read some Leiber lasy night - Black Has its Charms and The Man Who Made Friends with Electricity. The prose never goes stale; the ideas keep buzzing; the execution never becomes dated. The man, indeed, a writing god. | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 79.70.121.34 |
I have a wonderful biography of Orson Welles by Simon Callow, thoughtful and well considered. I've dedicated one of the stories in BRFG to OW and quite frankly am still madly in love with him after many years. I re-read Smoke Ghost last night. A powerful story. I'm going to read NIGHT MONSTERS, followed by NIGHT'S BLACK AGENTS again and then I've got something in my TBR pile called A SPECTRE IS HAUNTING TEXAS. Anyone read this one? | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
"For me, it was the paradigm shift in "Smoke Ghost" that was amazing. Leiber modernised the ghost story by giving it a gritty noir edge centred in a modern urban environment rather than in cathedrals or old houses." Exactly. But more than that. I'm still thinking about it, but he seemed to be making a ghost out of something other than a dead PERSON. More a dead sense of something. A dead world. A dead society. A dead zeitgeist that isn't in the past, but is now. The smoke ghost is a new form of Death with a capital D. One that WE can see all around us. In factory chimneys and the grime on a worker's face. The old Death was a transformed us. The new Death is also transformed but by being added to. Like we have discovered a LIVING Death. We have crossed over enough, in our destructive functionality, to a world of Death. The similar architecture has allowed us to stray in to death. I see parallels in Ligotti's later worker. Although HIS Death might have a paper face. And staples for teeth. And rattle with pills. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
>>Do you have any interests outside of literature, Albie? What? Hobbies? or phobias? death wishes? If we are trying to find the primer for liking a certain kind of horror -outside of hedgehog crisps (if we must)- then maybe "interests" is the wrong term. I think anyone who has felt the world wasn't real -and ENJOYED that sensation - may well find him or herself here...eventually. Our flock wanders still, unlit, naked but for the rust of their crumbling wounds!  OH! Tony! You spoiled the moment! | ||
| Mick Curtis (Mick) Username: Mick Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.163.48.60 |
I have a wonderful biography of Orson Welles by Simon Callow Do you have both books, Ally? I got them as a Christmas present but haven't yet got around to reading them. There's a good one as well by Peter Bogdanovich from when he conducted a series of interviews with Welles. | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 79.70.121.34 |
I really want the Bogdanovitch book too, Mick. I'm not going to go on about my collection but you might like one of the stories in it. The protagonist Harlan is based on Orson Welles. As Zeddy has said he was an absolute genius. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
I don't think Wells was an absolute genius at all, but I do think he produced works of genius - Citizen Kane and A Touch of Evil spring to mind. | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 79.70.121.34 |
I stand corrected :>) | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
That'll be the callipers. | ||
| Mick Curtis (Mick) Username: Mick Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.163.48.60 |
I'm not going to go on about my collection but you might like one of the stories in it. I'd already decided to buy it back in Toronto when you were telling me about it, Ally! | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 79.70.121.34 |
I'm nothing if not good at selling myself over a pint of Guinness Mick! | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 79.70.121.34 |
Zed - I can't write witty replies. Can you write one for me and pretend to have a quip with yourself? | ||
| Mick Curtis (Mick) Username: Mick Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.163.48.60 |
I'm nothing if not good at selling myself over a pint of Guinness Mick! A pint? :-) | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 79.70.121.34 |
Okay - a ship load :>) a tanker! | ||
| Stu (Stu) Username: Stu Registered: 04-2008 Posted From: 86.29.109.114 |
Right, I reread Smoke Ghost and it's better than I remembered it. I'd actually forgotten most of the plot and had just been left with a general feeling of disappointment. Probably 'cos the story receives so much praise that it had too much to live up to. This time round my expectations were much lower and consequently I enjoyed it much more. As I generally find Leiber a bit hit and miss I'm wondering what other stories by him I might have to reassess. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.24.122.40 |
Stu's caught in a cycle of misperception. The next time he reads the tale, with high expectations from this latest read, he'll be disappointed, but he shouldn't despair because when he reads it again after that with low expectations, it'll be good again. Alas, he's trapped in this endless loop of good/average/good/average, ad infinitum, and this will dog him till his dying day. Such a sorry waste of a promising Young life. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
Chortle. The he's caught in a smoke ring. | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.176.232 |
And thus was Stu spared the hangman's noose... ;-) Stu, I think you'd enjoy any of the ones I listed above. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
"The he's"?  Tubby! | ||
| Griff (Griff) Username: Griff Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.100 |
Albie. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
Taulbbbiye. | ||
| Griff (Griff) Username: Griff Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.100 |
How yer feeling scamp!? | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
Diverse. Or is it divers? As it is spelled in old books? last night I was real bad. Watching Abba videos after playing a Splinter Cell game on Xbox. Oh, the darkness! Time running out. Back to the unreal world. | ||
| Stu (Stu) Username: Stu Registered: 04-2008 Posted From: 86.29.98.152 |
>>Stu's caught in a cycle of misperception. The next time he reads the tale, with high expectations from this latest read, he'll be disappointed, but he shouldn't despair because when he reads it again after that with low expectations, it'll be good again. Alas, he's trapped in this endless loop of good/average/good/average, ad infinitum, and this will dog him till his dying day. Such a sorry waste of a promising Young life. But what if my expectations are lowered BEFORE I read the story again? I'll be okay then. I think the best way to achieve this is if everyone on this thread starts talking about how awful Smoke Ghost is. Maybe Joel could even write a follow-up article for Wormwood -- Fritz Leiber: God, he's Rubbish. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.156.110.243 |
Backlash articles can be tremendous fun. Some day I plan to write an article on why M.R. James is overrated, and how his influence has done more harm than good. But no-one will ever speak to me after that. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
WHAT? BUT? HOW? BOOBIES? WHEN? |