| Author | Message | ||
     Ian Alexander Martin (Iam) Username: Iam Registered: 10-2009 Posted From: 99.199.107.118 |
For those who care, there's a new post on the Atomic Fez web-site. It's explaining that what e-books need to gain wide-spread market acceptance is some decent hardware. “What do E-Books Need? Readers!” http://www.atomicfez.com/?p=1026 | ||
| Stephen Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 82.0.106.15 |
Hi Ian, why do they have Christopher Fowler lumped in with Dan Brown & Jeffrey Archer in that article?!?! I haven't read any Fowler but have several of his books waiting to be read and had heard he was a highly respected serious horror writer. Surely he can't belong in with those two nitwits??? As for E-books, the very idea of reading literature off a screen is anathema to me. | ||
| Ian Alexander Martin (Iam) Username: Iam Registered: 10-2009 Posted From: 99.199.107.118 |
I meant it as examples of authors of mysteries one can find in shops, but I'll scoot back in there and make a comment to that effect. As for e-books per se: I'm not suggesting them as a replacement for paper, only as a complimentary fashion of word delivery. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.236.190 |
In a related story, the body of Ian Martin was discovered pummeled to death directly beneath the bloodied fists of one Joel Lane, writer, who was immediately taken in for questioning....  | ||
| Ian Alexander Martin (Iam) Username: Iam Registered: 10-2009 Posted From: 99.199.107.118 |
…eeeeeegh… he… he… ooooooooo… azaaauuugghgghghghg… | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.240.106 |
I'll tell you what e-books need: chucking in the bin. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.171.129.68 |
The popularity of the e-format book is certainly rising. Someone was telling me recently they were surprised to learn that a decent per centage of their US sales was now in the e-book form... | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.240.106 |
Sales of what? | ||
| Stephen Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
I could live with Dan Brown, Jeffrey Archer and other assorted wastes of paper being only available in e-format - couldn't I just!! | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.47 |
The only advantage an e-reader has over a paperback book is that you can hold 10,000 books in an e-reader - which is a bit shit because you can only read one at a time in any case. E-readers - like mobile phone screens - can be difficult to read in bright light. What the f*** is the point of a book you can't read in the light? If I put my coat down with a paperback in the pocket and sit on it, I'll still be able to read the book. If I drop a book on the floor I can still read it afterwards. An ebook will probably be wrecked. If I'm reading a normal book on the train there's no chance that the battery will die and I'll no be able to read for the rest of the journey. Similarly a normal book won't doe because I'm reading on a beach and get sand in it. E-books are rubbish and pointless and a huge step backwards in the entire reading experience. | ||
| Stephen Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
Well said Weber... it's a gimmick imho. | ||
| Steve Jensen (Stevej) Username: Stevej Registered: 07-2009 Posted From: 82.0.77.233 |
Welcoming a new author (from 'The New Yorker'): Hi, Ellis— Let me introduce myself. My name is Gineen Klein, and I’ve been brought on as an intern to replace the promotion department here at Propensity Books. First, let me say that I absolutely love “Clancy the Doofus Beagle: A Love Story” and have some excellent ideas for promotion... http://www.newyorker.com/humor/2009/10/19/091019sh_shouts_weiner | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 82.38.75.85 |
Yes, and I'm another one who can't read off screen for long periods. Not only that but I just love the feel and smell of a real book. Ebooks will never do for me I'm afraid. But I guess the younger generation coming up might take to them, if that's all they really know? It's like vinyl being replaced by cassettes and then by CDs and now by downloads. Sad, but give me a real book any day (and I still have my old vinyl collection by the way!) | ||
| Ian Alexander Martin (Iam) Username: Iam Registered: 10-2009 Posted From: 99.199.107.118 |
In the world of large house publishing, the amount of waste production of 'real books' is staggering. 30,000 copies of a title get run, in order to get a nice price/unit for the health of budgets. This way they can afford to sell 10,000 at RRP or on slight discount, 10,000 on very stupid deep discount, and 10,000 are literally thrown away because they've budgeted for the loss. Now… keeping in mind the thread about the environment being something we've got to sort right quick or we've had it, how much longer can we keep chopping down trees to make paper to print books to ship all over the place in diesel trains and trucks then store in heated warehouses in cardboard boxes and then turn them into useless vats of pulp to be then used as shipping filler for another box of books that…? I'd love to drive a 1953 Buick, but that's not happening. Honestly, there is no threat to paper books (ignore both those people who scream for the elimination of paper books, plus those who decry its loss; it's not going anywhere, trust me), but what's the point of printing hundreds of thousands of Dan Browns and then chucking a third? Likewise, why are students forced to pay insane prices for text books, when they could just as easily be delivered the same text on a device? There is no actual increased fidelity of story delivery in a paper form of book: the notion that it is a better experience, I submit, is romantic twaddle. Vinyl has a warmer sound, yes (cassettes were crap, give me an MP3 any day) but LPs had surface noise that you had to go to insane extents to reduce -- you could never eliminate it, short of using a proper 'clean room' -- so it's swings and horses, that one. Are you enjoying a story when you read a book, or are you fetishising a bound block of sheets of paper? The single best part of the book reading experience is the imagination of the writer, followed closely by the imagination of the reader. After that, the fact that people are continuing to read at all is enough, as far as I'm concerned. [ahem] Yours, advocating for the devil; | ||
| Stephen Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
Sorry Ian but I'm still with Weber! And what's wrong with fetishising anyway? It's always worked for me... | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.47 |
Trying to read off an e-reader where you have to stay in the shadows because you can't see the damned screen in bright sunlight is somewhat of a detraction from the whole reading experience. also repeat any of the other reasons I gave in my earlier post. Therefore paper is best. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.250.204 |
Now… keeping in mind the thread about the environment... Ian's exactly right. So I'll just... sit back here, grab a beer, kick my feet up... it's a beautiful day for a petard-hoisting....  | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.47 |
"what's the point of printing hundreds of thousands of Dan Browns and then chucking a third?" When you could just make some soft toilet roll with the paper instead. Let's face it, the best use for a Dan Brown book is wiping your backside, but even though that's quite painful it's not as bad as actually reading the book. Just cut out the middleman and make soft bogroll instead of Dan Brown books... | ||
| Stephen Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
The man's a genius!! | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.180.182 |
You can't sniff an e-book. The tactile pleasure of snuggling up with a good book is impossible to duplicate with computers. Yes, I've been accused of being a bit of a romantic (though I hope not the 'twaddling' kind). | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.240.106 |
It's impossible to remove the message from the medium. That's whay we call what we read "books" and not stories. It's a bookshop, not a storyshop. We read books, not stories. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.171.129.73 |
Best thing you can say about Dan Brown's books is that you don't have to read them. | ||
| Stephen Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
I think publishers have missed a very real marketing opportunity and take Weber's inspired suggestion above seriously. Instead of pulping Dan Brown why not cut out the middle man and turn him into non-pulped, still readable toilet paper. There must be some way of removing the pages and stringing them together into rolls. I for one would give up the pleasure of using Soft & Gentle just for the pleasure of being able to read good literature and comment upon bad at the same time while engaged in an otherwise non-productive activity. It could work... | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.180.182 |
There was a novel published in Japan recently in the form of toilet paper. It was by Koji Suzuki, author of Ring and Dark Water:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/5381234/Japanese-publish er-prints-horror-novel-on-toilet-roll.html | ||
| Stephen Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
Drat... and there was me about to ask Weber to go on Dragon's Den with me! Still it was a beautiful idea. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.233.108 |
Someone should actually write a novel on his/her body: pen the whole thing, starting at one spot, ending at another. Then go on a traveling "Read The Author - Literally!" junket. Get a whole line of them, and call it: "Me-Books." | ||
| Ian Alexander Martin (Iam) Username: Iam Registered: 10-2009 Posted From: 99.199.107.118 |
I've nothing against either fetishism or paper-based books. The idea that a paper book is better or the only way to read is what I've got a problem with. While one can prefer one form or another, there isn't a new increase in comprehension of plot points, or increased ability to suspend disbelief due to the use of the printed word. That doesn't wash with me. You can say you prefer to have printed books, and this is entirely understandable and I'll agree with you as I probably would rather the same thing for 99% of my reading. However, I also agree that some of the e-ink readers these days basically suck donkeys when it comes to reading them in anything other than shady areas. That's why, at the end of the post on the blog, the alleged Apple iTablet is something which is likely to solve the perceived problem of many expensive bits of equipment that do poor jobs of showing people books; big screen, full colour, good contrast and brightness, high detail, touch-sensitive, light, thin, does a gazillion things as well so you aren't stuck with it only doing one task, decent battery life. Many people who are getting older [looks around appraisingly] find that type is getting smaller or simply more difficult to read. With an electronic book the contrast is better, and you can increase the size of the words. Besides, no one on the tube can tell you're reading Barbara Cartland by looking at the back of your iPhone. | ||
| Ian Alexander Martin (Iam) Username: Iam Registered: 10-2009 Posted From: 99.199.107.118 |
Damn; I keep forgetting to make this point. There are some books I wouldn't mind reading, but can't bear to either locate a copy in a shop, spend $25 for, or bother carting around. Likewise, what do I do with it afterwards? BookCrossing.com is fine, but… I read The da Vinci Code merely to discover how better to mock it. I found it to be 'mildly entertaining' but forgettable (which is why it was a big block-buster at the cinema). The library was a fine source for it. However, there's not every book in the world available there, and sometimes a title requires buying a "Limited, Slip-Cased, bound in Camel foreskin edition." If all one wishes to do "is just )%$^&( read the (*&(&^)_# thing!" then this seems a bit of a steep cost for a small task. Oh, Craig? Have you not seen The Pillow Book? Erotic, literary, and incredible calligraphy. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.47 |
That's what dustjackets from other books are for. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.47 |
Crossed posts there. That was a reply to the Barbara Cartland comment. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.233.108 |
Nope, never saw that film, Ian... I guess all the best ideas are taken already.... | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.47 |
There are some books I wouldn't mind reading, but can't bear to either locate a copy in a shop, spend $25 for, or bother carting around. point a) they mustn't be very good. Point b) are they going to magically appear on you e-book? No. You've still got to track it down online, then faff about transferring it onto your ebook. you might as well just pop onto Amazon and order the real thing. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.47 |
Craig - pillow book is directed by Peter Greenaway and starred Ewan McGregor and lots of naked people. Quite good in places but I found it ultimately fairly forgettable. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.47 |
E-books are the solution to a problem that doesn't exist. They're pointless, fragile, unreadable in sunlight and ultimately expensive and silly. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.240.106 |
E-books are the solution to a problem that doesn't exist. I knew one of these days, if I waited long enough, you'd say something worthwhile. Bravo, sir. Seriouly well said.  | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 82.38.75.85 |
Actually, Ian's made me feel a little guilty now. I've realised that my book fetish is partly responsible for deforestation and the resulting global warming. You've made me feel guilty, you swine, you!  But I can't help it. I'm just addicted to books - the feel, the smell, the look (great cover art), the whole idea of the printed word on a nice, white sheet of paper. And I like them signed as well - you can't do that with an ebook. But I am more into old books rather than new ones, so the trees were probably cut down ages ago and not recently. There, I feel a bit better about it already. | ||
| Steve Jensen (Stevej) Username: Stevej Registered: 07-2009 Posted From: 82.0.77.233 |
Good and interesting article, Ian, but what makes you so sure that the widespread acceptance of e-readers will lead to a more 'level playing field'? This is not the way big business operates, as I'm certain you know; monopolisation is the be-all & end-all to the big players, even the likes of Amazon themselves. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.171.129.70 |
You have to wonder why Waterstones sells the Sony Reader in its stores. Turkeys, votes, Christmas. (Speaking of Christmas, Bob Dylan's forthcoming Christmas songs and carols album probably deserves a thread of its own nearer the release date, but they have been mocking it on the news today.) | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.171.129.70 |
You know what? I hate to say it, but I'm slowly beginning to like some notions about the e-book thing. Sorry. Don't mean I won't continue to love the real, printed word on paper in a nice binding. But I'm sure there'll be some I eventually read in e form. | ||
| Stephen Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 82.0.106.15 |
I've nothing against the technology of E-books existing (it's very clever) just as long as there doesn't come a time when all books (from Shakespeare to Dostoevsky) are only available in that medium. The very thought of that is just plain wrong. | ||
| Ian Alexander Martin (Iam) Username: Iam Registered: 10-2009 Posted From: 99.199.107.118 |
Paper books will . Period. I'm not calling for the elimination of that, gawd forbid! Buying e-books for the Apple tablet will be done on the Apple Tablet: it does far more than simply display books, remember? The Apple tablet will be one you can read in the sun, because it's full colour, remember? The playing field will be leveler: you won't have to have annual sales of £25,000 to merely get a meeting to discuss distribution of paper books with a Neilsen's or Bowkers. Getting any formal distribution beyond 'get the author to e-mail his friends' is a problem. I've tried. Additional problems:
Now… again, I'm not saying that e-books are the dog's bollocks, just that they do have uses, and the notion that they are 'stupid' because the hardware hasn't caught up yet is short-sighted. It's like saying the automobile is stupid because the boiler keeps over-flowing with water. Besides, you're reading words on a screen right now, aren't you? | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.47 |
No. I print out the forum and read it off paper. Then I snail Mail Gary Fry to post it on for me | ||
| Stephen Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
I've no problem with reading words off a screen when that's all it is - words. But like I said above I don't, can't and won't read Literature off a screen as I find it reduces the story to no more than a text (there is a difference) and is not a pleasurable experience for me. E-book technology certainly will have its uses but in my case reading Literature will never be one of them. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.47 |
I've never had to pay more than £2 for delivery from the states for a book. And I recently bought good quality first editions of Bradbury's "Where Robot Mice and Robot Men Run Round in Robot Towns" and "The Haunted Computer and the Android Pope". I know they're reasonably thin but I have bought a couple of hefty hardbacks from the states as well. I've never had a book go missing in the post from amazon (ebay yes, not amazon). If you're ordering online you always know you've got a week or so to wait. So what, it's worth it for having the solid object in your hands. Who's to say that you won't still have to pay £85 for your text book on the i-reader - then not only have you forked out for it, you then accidentally sit on your reader or it slips out of your pocket and you're going to have to buy the damned thing again - as well as a new reader... I'd like to see you wreck your average text book by sitting on it. There is no worthwhile advantage to the digital book. The printed form has so many more advantages. Plus - you can use a book to steady a wobbly table leg - can you do that with an e-reader? | ||
| Ian Alexander Martin (Iam) Username: Iam Registered: 10-2009 Posted From: 99.199.107.118 |
Pray tell, what in blazes does that mean? If literature is not words, then what is it? Diagrammes? Dance?
I have a new admiration for the delivery times of Royal Mail. Plus the dedication of Mr Fry for this board. To your concerns regarding text books, however, the chief defence of text book publishers is their runs are so small that printed versions of their texts - which also have to change annually (although how some mathematics or basic physics alters annually I've no idea) - that they must charge £85 or more per copy. Logically, that changes with the production costs now being non-manufacturing based, and therefore set-up fees are the same no matter how many copies are produced. The era of exorbitant course books is over (eventually, not over-night, obviously). | ||
| Ian Alexander Martin (Iam) Username: Iam Registered: 10-2009 Posted From: 99.199.107.118 |
As there's clearly no support for the provision of e-books, as well as for anyone else having them, one so very much looks forward to sales of the paper-based versions of books by Mr. Probert, Mr. Travis, Mr. Hughes, and Mr Cooper via the site www.atomicfez.com. Hardback titles are £22.99 or £19.99, and the paperback titles are £11.99 [p&p add'l]. Only £4.99 for the E-books—and they'll have a cover graphic, be ready sooner, as well as coming without the P+P charges—but they're rubbish and useless. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.47 |
Any large text book comes with large detailed pictures and diagrams. In a printed book, these are as big as the printer can make them. On an e-book, they're going to be only a couple of inches at most. Not useful for learning from. And there's still no guarantee that the publisher won't charge exorbitant prices for it in an e-version. | ||
| Stephen Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
If literature is not words, then what is it? Greater men than me have been unable to answer that question but you know it when you read it... | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.47 |
but they're rubbish and useless... More pointless and silly really. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.47 |
I just read that article and this currently fictional apple tablet is going to be 10.5 inches long. That's bigger than the hardback book I'm reading at the moment. Hardly winning on the portability argument. A standard paperback is much more easily portable - 7 inches of pleasure to pull out of your pocket whenever convenient... | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 82.38.75.85 |
>>7 inches of pleasure to pull out of your pocket whenever convenient...<<  Oh, PAPERBACKS! I see what you mean now. My mind must have been elsewhere. Mind like a sewer, me. | ||
| Simon Strantzas (Nomis) Username: Nomis Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 38.113.181.169 |
Ian, having danced this dance before, I can tell you to give up trying to convince them. Some people only see things in terms of what is or was, whereas others see things in terms of what will be. You've no chance of winning them over. | ||
| Steve Jensen (Stevej) Username: Stevej Registered: 07-2009 Posted From: 82.0.77.233 |
You're mistaken, Simon - we're not all Luddites; most would admit that e-books and e-readers are 'the coming thing', with several benefits for authors and readers alike. The fact that we find these new things rather soulless is by-the-by... It's a healthy thing to be wary of products which are being so heavily 'pushed' by publishers and big business (Amazon & co) - often, writers suffer financially as a result of these shiny new changes. For example, I know a writer who worked on a novel for ages, a real labour of love it was. His publisher stated that the finished book would be out in hardback, paperback, audio-format etc etc...once the novel was completed, said publisher changed his mind and now the book is available in e-book format only, priced at, oh, one or two pounds. The publisher is very happy about this; the author is not quite so pleased with his 50p cut. And this from a publisher who actually loves the author's work... | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.240.106 |
Sometines new = shite. It's that simple. E-books might well be the future, but it's not a future I'm going to embrace. | ||
| Chris_morris (Chris_morris) Username: Chris_morris Registered: 04-2008 Posted From: 12.165.240.116 |
Here's the weird thing about e-books: If someone had handed me a Kindle when I was sixteen, I'm sure I would have loved it. The combination of cool technology plus portability plus the ability to buy books inexpensively would have had me over the moon. Unfortunately that didn't happen. The Kindle didn't come out until I was forty (or so), and now, I'm afraid, I'm no longer interested in impressing people with "cool technology"; I don't see much purpose in carrying 500 books in my backpack; and cheap books are less attractive if you have to read them on something as cold and soulless as an electronics device. Frankly, for me anyway, my disinterest has less to do with Luddism and more to do with the fact that I'm an old fart. Sad to say, but I'm sure it's true. Additionally, and for similar reasons, I don't want to watch movies on a wristwatch, view van Gogh paintings on the head of a pin, or listen to music on cochlear implants. Just because technology allows us to do something doesn't mean we should all automatically want to do it. Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to find a way to condense this sentiment to fit the Twitter word limit, update my Facebook page, and fly my hovercraft over to McDonald's for a donkeyburger. Man, the future isn't what it used to be. | ||
| Simon Strantzas (Nomis) Username: Nomis Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 38.113.181.169 |
But Steve your example is an isolated incident and says nothing about the format. The fact is people dismiss the idea of ebooks because it can't do this or can't do that but it has nothing to do with the idea of ebooks. Ian's example of school books is frankly an incredible use of the technology. Most people don't want to keep their texts after the course is done but the expensive books are anchors that can't always be given away, especially when that book as been updated. An ebook version would be so much easier to deal with. Plus, if it's an internet capable ebook, the student could have the option of having important information hyperlinked to other articles, etc., making their learning that much more in-depth. Ebooks are not something to be feared. They're a tool, something that can add to your life. If the screens don't like you want them now, they will one day. If the size isn't right at the moment, it will be one day. And if you don't ever want to use one, you don't have to, but there is nothing inherently wrong with the idea of ebooks... except they aren't books. And that's often what these arguments boil down to "I don't like ebooks because they aren't paper books." No, they aren't, and there's no point in arguing about it. That's what I'm telling Ian. It's just not worth the energy to continuously go around in circles about this. | ||
| Steve Bacon (Stevebacon) Username: Stevebacon Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 90.208.112.200 |
Reading an e-book is similar to watching a bootleg dvd or a VHS copy, instead of a blu-ray or an original dvd. You get the same information, but it's delivered in a far more enjoyable manner. Ian, I disagree that the story is all there is to the book; the paper grade, the font, the way the book is binded, the artwork - all these factors add to the reading experience. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.171.129.70 |
They're talking about e-books on Radio 4 at the moment... | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.171.129.70 |
Guy speaking reckons that smaller selling and mid-range writers will suffer most in the e-revolution, because royalties will be so low... | ||
| Steve Bacon (Stevebacon) Username: Stevebacon Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 90.208.112.200 |
"Reading an e-book is similar to watching a bootleg dvd or a VHS copy, instead of a blu-ray or an original dvd. You get the same information, but it's delivered in a far more enjoyable manner". Obviously, I meant LESS enjoyable. Oh, for an edit button. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.12.129.226 |
I think I've been reasonably eloquent in the reasons I don't want to ever own an e-book. They're just pointless gimmicks really. There is no problem with the printed form that is solved by ebooks that can't be solved much more cheaply with the printed form Print too small? - 4 options 1 - move the book closer too your eyes 2 - move your eyes closer to the book 3 - Use reading glasses or a magnifying glass 4 - any combination of the above Any other points raised in the preceding arguments I think I've already covered. | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 213.158.199.71 |
Simon - I'd like to pick up on a point you made about easier accessibility to educational texts, etc, if in e-book form. The UK is financially secure enough to be able to provide free text books to the students, as I'm sure or hope, Canada is, also. Surely the introduction of e-book technology in schools would run way beyond high-cost educational budget limitations? One of the remarkable advantages that the British system offers is this, free books. If it provides the technology necessary for the e-book, then all fine and well. If it can't and schools work on a regional budgetary system, then this would mean large swathes of pupils would suffer. Or the 'traditional' book form would render a sense of reduced learning to schools without the monetary resources. In the UK we are privileged that we have books at our disposal through the magnificence of the library, and the state system...free. The technology to accomodate every reader of an e-book would surely ratchet up costs that would make any state run body shudder at the thought? In Poland pupils, regardless of income, must provide their own text books. How on earth would they be able to provide for e-book technology? I'm asking you this not because of your argument about the pointlessness of discussing the aesthetic differences between the two, but because I seriously believe that this not an isolated incident. In financial terms it may or may not have dreadful consequences for education on the whole. | ||
| Simon Strantzas (Nomis) Username: Nomis Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 99.227.90.149 |
Sorry, Frank. To be clear I (and I assume Ian) meant textbooks at a post-secondary level. My books were paid for me until I reached university, at which point I was on my own, and those books weren't cheap, and invariably they would be updated before I could sell my copies to recoup the costs. And, as to the added costs to the school system, it's similar to the argument "How can I offer them music on compact disc? It will cost them a hundred dollars to buy a compact disc player!" True, until you work on the assumption that everyone has a player already. Like I said before, I'm talking about the potential ebooks have, not where they currently are. | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 213.158.199.77 |
Simon - I hope this potential is not at the cost of others? Yes, it's early days, but Steve's example of his friend's book being put out in e-book format only, might be an indication of things to come. I'm not against new technology, especially when it could have benefits for artists, but I have a terrible suspicion it might be too much of a price to pay. At the end of the day if there's room for both, without affecting books, then that's great. Perhaps it will lead to more people returning to reading in general. But I can't see the e-book not affecting book and their writers. | ||
| Steve Jensen (Stevej) Username: Stevej Registered: 07-2009 Posted From: 82.0.77.233 |
Gawd...I really should point out that I wasn't implying that e-books are totally evil, or that Ian is some big-business ratbag looking to rip-off authors.  True, the example I gave was perhaps a poor one but not untypical of some unscrupulous publishers; these people are opportunists and, sadly, their reasoning that 'e-books will give you, the author, a much wider readership!' is only true to an extent; this translation is more accurate: 'e-books cut overheads; bottom line.' All very well - everyone has to make a living. But making a living, as an author, is harder than ever these days - for every big-name, mediocre but marketable 'talent', there are thousands of writers being told not even to think about an advance; I'm tired of reading about good writers having, oh, two or three jobs just to make ends meet. Regardless of the economic climate, products driven by big business and not by the 'artists' themselves, will be deemed suspect by writers - we know the score, we know that we will be underpaid - example: you can buy an 'e-novel' for 40 pence(!) from Damnation Books; 40 pence! Great for the consumer, not so great for the author. But then, this is an industry where 5 cents per word is seen as something fantastic, and generous to boot... | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.224.70 |
Advances in technology always mean whole classes of people will lose their livelihood, in one form or another. Vonnegut decried the state of the short-story when he got in, right at the tail end of its lucrative stage - that was back in the early 50's! TV had reduced readership of short-stories, and so markets/pay was dwindling - again, back in the 50's! But before that, I'm sure, the short-story/fictional narrative had suffered a few earthquakes already: film, radio.... The advances in technology, the speed and ease at which product can be transmitted, has all but decimated the music industry, for example. It has since spread to film: dvd sales have plummeted, this very year alone, the year the dvd died, and for a number of reasons - which includes the economy, Netflix, streaming video, on-demand cable - and the ease of copying and downloading huge movie files now thanks to advances in technology. The Warner Bros. Company sells old movies from their vaults - http://www.wbshop.com/Warner-Archive/ARCHIVE,default,sc.html?src=GGLHMOD - charging $19.95, which is too much nowadays for a dvd. Is anyone buying these?!... Out here in So Cal, most Borders Books, a giant chain which had innumerable dvds - got rid of them all in the space of a month. Blockbuster Video and Hollywood Video rental outlets are one-by-one slowly disappearing... and forget the independent sellers/renters, they've gone the way of independent music outlets. It was inevitable all this damage would eventually find its way to books, somehow. Luckily, books have centuries of consistency to help them survive. Unluckily, no one reads anymore. | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 213.158.199.85 |
Steve - spot-on, mate. And I didn't think you thought Ian was some sort of big-business ratbag. You feel passionately about it, like all of us. | ||
| Ian Alexander Martin (Iam) Username: Iam Registered: 10-2009 Posted From: 99.199.107.118 |
In some ways I would like to be a big-business rat-bag, as it would allow me to live in the manner one should be accustomed to: well fed. However, let's sort out a few things here: The Apple tablet unit which doesn't yet exist but is all but a sure thing for March of next year has a screen which is 10.5" when measured diagonally, as all screens are. I'll wager the 7" of joy that is being pulled from anyone's pocket is being measured for length, along its spine, thereby making the unit with a 10.5" diagonal screen about the same over-all size as most of PS Publishing's hardbacks (The Darkest Part of the Woods for instance), and therefore fairly handy in size, especially as the thickness is about the same as one of the little chap books. Not perfect for all, no, but for that we'd need tailor-fitted units that come out of our foreheads and then hang down in front of our eye-balls. Which would be pretty cool, now that I think about it. The paper-based book is not going to go away, and no-one is saying it should (there are some I've heard in my time who do, and I'm stunned they've not been burned at the stake). All I'm suggesting is that there is a place for electronic books, even if one doesn't have one in their particular catalogue of tastes. I'm not keen for chocolate ice cream, for instance, but am not about to decry the provision of it for others. The text books I'm suggesting that can easily be replaced or supplemented by electronic versions are, as Simon wisely suggests, University level ones. As I said earlier
When I was a student, I recall a philosophy text that cost me over $100, and I know that students today would look at me as if I was from the 1930s. Even when I was moaning about the Philosophy text, I also paid $175 for a Geography text book (and how often do weather and latitude principles get changed?). Again, at the low-end of the scale for that time, and I've no idea what the kids pay these days. To suggest that publishers could still charge the same rates for electronic versions of the text books as the paper ones is cynical and insulting to both the students - they'd have to be incredibly daft to pay the same prices as before - and the publishers - who would have to be incredibly daft to charge the same prices as before - and that pricing strategy would go directly against the current experiments being made at East Coast US colleges where Amazon and several educational publishers are working together with text-books and the Kindle. The electronic book readers available today are crap. This cannot be denied. I do not own one, for that reason plus the fact that I'm broke and couldn't afford one anyway. This must change before anyone like myself will adopt the electronic book. Hardware must improve, become more useful in general, and be reduced in price. The Kindle sucks donkeys. The Sony Reader does the same, but a bit less, owing to the size of it being more pocket-dimensioned. It is my view that the Apple unit will be the 'just right' middle-ground (although I can't afford that either). To complain that some of the screens are too difficult to read in the bright sun is true, but they're working on it (and the Apple screen will be full colour, not an increase on 32-shades of grey). Sorted; at least partially. It's also been pointed out that the screens of many units are too small.To then complain that the Apple unit will be too large then ignores the real reason the readers aren't 'good enough': they're not paper. Which they're not supposed to be. An e-book is not a paper one. The e-book is already here, by the way, and is no longer 'the coming thing'. Whatever you think of Dan Brown's writing, he sells books, and that's what authors want to do. In the first 24 hours of being on sale, his latest sold more copies in electronic form than in either paperback or hardcover. Poo-poo the e-book all you like out of preference, but you can't dismiss its lack of being desired by the people. There's a number of different thoughts about royalties that authors get vs what they deserve, but here's what I'm doing (without getting too specific, obviously).
I am not the same as many publishers, nor do I suggest they should adopt this format. However, if I were to declare that the author should still only get 15% of the RRP for an e-book edition, and that certain percentage of sales be allowed for deep-discount wholesaling, plus they would have to accept that certain Cost of Goods Sold would have to be subtracted from any royalties they might be paid, plus I'm ignoring the bit in the contract which states that the work will be published in both hardcover and electronic book formats (even with a 'get out of jail free clause' that basically says I can do what I want anyway), it would be pretty damned tough for me to get any authors worth the publishing of. No matter what sort of reputation a publisher might have, they are like any company and can lose any respect in people's mind they have now, were they to follow that path. Authors are rightly expecting much higher royalties for e-books than for paper ones, owing to the lower over-head charges, and readers are rightly demanding the RRP be lower for the same reason. Done correctly, and with honourable morals by the involved parties, electronic books cannot -- should not -- cause anyone to suffer, including the lover of the paper book. Next week, U2's excellent 1983 album The Unforgettable Fire comes out in a re-mastered form. One of the editions is vinyl, something which was declared to be dead in the late 1980s. People called the CD "a gimmick" as well, and now some are already declaring its demise. The same applied to the TV, Rock & Roll, and trans-continental air travel (what's wrong with the QEII, I ask you?). No one "must adopt" anything by force. Simply continue to buy what you wish. It's business: the customer hands over money for what they want. However, if there are insufficient sales of either paper or electronic books, you'll see that format fade away. It's business: the company provides product for what sufficient numbers of customers hands over money for. Vote with your readies. | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 82.38.75.85 |
You speak sense, Ian, but my readies will always go on real paper books - not ebooks. I do agree that ebooks will catch on in time, with a younger readership most likely. Technologies do change. It's just that oldies like me like to stick with what they know and what they prefer. It'll be interesting to do some comparison with your sales figures when the time comes, to see how your ebook sales compare proportionately with the paper copy sales of the same book. In fact, has any publisher done such a comparison so far, or is it way to early for that to have happened? | ||
| Ian Alexander Martin (Iam) Username: Iam Registered: 10-2009 Posted From: 99.199.107.118 |
People! Stop feel you must defend your preference for paper! The mere existence of e-books is not part of a plan to remove those from your grasp! You prefer paper? Great! Don't sweat it! I'm only requesting you see the usefulness of them, not their use by you! E-books have been here in one form or another for over a decade. The Industry is about to take a huge shoot up in popularity for this format, so any previous buying patterns aren't germane. The suggestion is that the majority of huge increase in the electronic form of books will reflect more sales of fiction, not sales shifting from 'paper sales' to 'electronic sales'. This is a good thing, surely? More people reading? | ||
| Steve Jensen (Stevej) Username: Stevej Registered: 07-2009 Posted From: 82.0.77.233 |
All good points, Ian, and well-made. Still, you don't really believe this, do you? In the first 24 hours of being on sale, his latest sold more copies in electronic form than in either paperback or hardcover. | ||
| Ian Alexander Martin (Iam) Username: Iam Registered: 10-2009 Posted From: 99.199.107.118 |
The fact was stated in my local -- and reliable -- newspaper. And before you ask, yes, I've read Flat Earth News so am not naive. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.16.77.121 |
Sometimes, it's not the principle of thing, it's naked greed: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091021/ap_en_ce/us_books_stephen_king ... Is this or is this not a case of naked fucking greed?... maybe I'm just seeing things the wrong way - and I'm not even a fan of e-books.... | ||
| Ian Alexander Martin (Iam) Username: Iam Registered: 10-2009 Posted From: 99.199.107.118 |
The price of setting up an e-book is typically the same again as a set-up charge for the codex ("paper") edition. The production costs beyond that are typically nil-or-next-to, depending on whether you're budgeting promotion for the e-book specifically as opposed to the paper edition. So… $35 ($US) for an electronic version… about the same as a hardcover…? One would hesitate to use the phrase "naked fucking greed" oneself… in public… when not inside a pub… [ahem] However, you might very well think that; I couldn't possibly comment. | ||
| Stevenw (Stevenw) Username: Stevenw Registered: 10-2009 Posted From: 194.70.181.1 |
I've bought myself a Sony Reader and I love it! Will it stop me buying hard-copy novels? No. However I have managed to download some very interesting out-of-print pulp crime novels which I'm having fun reading. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
Scab. | ||
| Stevenw (Stevenw) Username: Stevenw Registered: 10-2009 Posted From: 194.70.181.1 |
I can imagine myself walking through a line of placard wielding book readers while I taunt them with my electronic device! :-) | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.22.227.133 |
No-one here seems to mind that electronic texts are easily tampered with. Imagine a Lolita purged from its . . . erm saucier bits (for whatever reason), entire portions of Mein Kampf excised so that the jewish community doesn't find it as offensive as the original text. My point being that anyone could do this, not just your shamefaced editor or cautious publisher. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.176.105.47 |
That's one of the faults with the pointless creation that is the e-book that we hadn't yet touched on. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.239.0 |
I've recently published my own e-book downloadable - it's a play - something I tossed off - called "Hamlet"? About this guy who's told by a ghost to kill his Uncle - well, I don't want to give too much away. But I'm hoping it puts the name "Craig Schwartz" on the map.... | ||
| Stevenw (Stevenw) Username: Stevenw Registered: 10-2009 Posted From: 194.70.181.1 |
It's pointless arguing the case for ebooks as an alternative to hard copy volumes to dyed-in-the-wool book collectors. However electronic publishing is no threat to anyone, so I wouldn't worry about it. |