| Author | Message | ||
     Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.129.20.239 |
There's nothing I can say about this. http://uk.news.yahoo.com/skynews/20080514/twl-girl-eight-in-iraq-suicide-bombing -3fd0ae9.html | ||
| Griff (Griff) Username: Griff Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.100 |
It's going to get worse in the UK, Tony. As demographics change things are going to become difficult as sections of society begin to make more demands to accommodate their beliefs. The new 'faith' schools promoted by the government are going to make the divisions and tensions in society worse not better. Who would honestly have thought ten years ago that there would be suicide bombers in the UK? | ||
| Karim Ghahwagi (Karim) Username: Karim Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 212.97.200.24 |
That is just awful. 2 months ago two women with downs Syndrome were allegedly remote detonated in a market place in Bagdad with the sole intension of inflicting mass casualities on civilians. I don't hope it will get worse in the UK Griff or here in DK. Who would have thought that apocalyptic Dominionist and Islamist ideology was going to shape the condition of the present world... Does anyone have a time machine? | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.129.20.239 |
They can't see how whatever they fight for is lost when they do this; they have committed spiritual suicide, and are dead, utterly failed already. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.100 |
Well, not necessarily, I'm afraid. Wikipedia is quite informed and informative on the issue: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_bomber | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.129.20.239 |
I meant even if they win they've failed. A child and a person with special needs have been murdered. That isn't really winning; that's an insanity that has convinced itself it's sane. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
Don't think there were eight year old kids flying those planes into boats, but we take your point. This emoticon sums up how I feel.  | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.156.110.243 |
This is appalling news. However, perhaps it's wrong to draw a line connecting ruthless political violence to the religion it may hide behind. I'm not remotely pro-religious, but it's probably unfair to imagine that paramilitary atrocities represent Islam in any meaningful sense. What part of Christianity was being upheld by loyalist and republican massacres during the Troubles in Northern Ireland? We need to drop the 'Islamic' from the phrase 'Islamic terrorism': mass murderers always find a greater ideal to hide behind, whether its face is religious dogma or political idealism. 'Islamic' terrorism is political, to be sure, but it's religious in name only. | ||
| Karim Ghahwagi (Karim) Username: Karim Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 212.97.200.24 |
'However, perhaps it's wrong to draw a line connecting ruthless political violence to the religion it may hide behind.' Sure, its perverse, but that happens when perverts are at work. Also far Right American evangelists like Pat Robertson also uses religion to advance politically- this is not just an issue in some parts of the Muslim community, or our understanding of it. Our good friend Pat now has some 70 million US followers! (shudder)- 70 million. (I thought the figure was 30 million).American moderate academics and political commentators are very alarmed by this. Secular ideas have been eroding away in the US these last eight years unfortunatly. Lets all go to the creationist museum. | ||
| Karim Ghahwagi (Karim) Username: Karim Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 212.97.200.24 |
I need a Monty Python song right now... | ||
| Karim Ghahwagi (Karim) Username: Karim Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 212.97.200.24 |
Hows about a Monty Python song about the Creationist museum... | ||
| Griff (Griff) Username: Griff Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.100 |
"We need to drop the 'Islamic' from the phrase 'Islamic terrorism': mass murderers always find a greater ideal to hide behind, whether its face is religious dogma or political idealism. 'Islamic' terrorism is political, to be sure, but it's religious in name only." My reading of the Quran, The Sunnah and examination of sharia suggests this sadly isn't the case. If anyone tells you that sharia is optional they're telling untruths. Take the opportunity to read about the activities of Muhammad and tell me I'm wrong. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.156.110.243 |
Griff, I think the Bible lends itself to similar readings – both the Old Testament (Leviticus) and the New (St Paul's instructions to the new church). It really comes down to whether you accent the peaceful or violent elements within these texts, and that is always a political decision. | ||
| Griff (Griff) Username: Griff Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.100 |
"Griff, I think the Bible lends itself to similar readings" Thanks for taking the time to reply, Joel. What's the extent of your reading of the Quran, The Sunnah and sharia? I'll be happy to debate this as well as the activites of Muhammad compared even to Paul, they're rather different. Muslims believe the Quran is perfect and unchangeing and a copy sits next to God in Heaven. Muhammad is also regarded as the perfect man whose behaviour is a template to follow. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.249.146 |
Don't Catholics/Christians, etc, believe the same thing of God and the bible, Griff? I think the issue is more fundamentalism rather than any single religion - these days, Islam is simply the fashionable murderous religion of choice. No offence to anyone on here who's religious, but in my experience organised (fundamental) religion (of any creed) is often the refuge of the damaged and confused. | ||
| Griff (Griff) Username: Griff Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.100 |
"Don't Catholics/Christians, etc, believe the same thing of God and the bible, Griff?" Some do some don't. It's what's inside the Quran, The Sunnah, sharia and the activities of Muhammad that's slightly different, Zed. Please take the opportunity to read them and then compare it with the New Testament - even the ramblings of "St"Paul. Again Muhammad is regarded as the perfect man whose behaviour is a template for others to follow. | ||
| Karim Ghahwagi (Karim) Username: Karim Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 83.93.30.31 |
Griff I like to focus on the things that the world religions have in common, and the goodness they also can produce. Nothing wrong with debate at all. For me though, the devil is in the detail. The news above though is terrible indeed. The other news happening right now is 50,000 Chinese deaths, and maybe a 120,000 deaths in Burma, with a starving, homeless population with a military that will not allow them help- now 10 days into the disaster. Then there is the 1 billion people who are not eating probably because of the price of one commodity- rice. | ||
| Griff (Griff) Username: Griff Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.100 |
Karim, "Griff I like to focus on the things that the world religions have in common, and the goodness they also can produce." I'm glad to hear that, Karim.  However, the violence we're increasingly seeing in the West doesn't come from Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs or Jews. We have challenged Chrisitianity and openly discuss its shortcoming. This needs to be applied to ALL religions. Especially, at this time, to Islam precisely because of those aspects of it that justify death to apostates, second class status of women and dhimmitude. We can't ignore the aspects of religion that cause hate and bigotry. There will be a price to pay, indeed we're already beginning to see it. "Nothing wrong with debate at all. For me though, the devil is in the detail. The news above though is terrible indeed. The other news happening right now is 50,000 Chinese deaths, and maybe a 120,000 deaths in Burma, with a starving, homeless population with a military that will not allow them help- now 10 days into the disaster. Then there is the 1 billion people who are not eating probably because of the price of one commodity- rice." I too am concerned with these problems, Karim. However, it doesn't prevent me from being concerned at the growing number of violent incidents and rise of supremacism in Europe. Together with the need for increased police resources and powers to monitor and prevent further incidents. We have to look at what the country will be like ten to twenty years from now. Who would seriously have thought ten years ago there would be suicide bombings by integrated western people? It's far from being unreasonable to question what will happen in the next ten to twenty years. Peace. | ||
| Karim Ghahwagi (Karim) Username: Karim Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 83.93.30.31 |
Griff I agree mate. These issues concern me a great deal, and it is of course fundamentalism in all its guises that certainly deserves as much critical attention as possible, especially now, as Zed writes above. One other major concern however, which you also mention above, is the manner in which the West is trying to deal with these issues. I am as concerned about, you know, extreamists, as I am with the erosion of civil liberties. I just watched a great documentary yesterday 'The Mindscape of Alan Moore' and I am reminded of that line from Watchmen: 'Who watches the Watchmen?' Way too many dark forces are profiting from conflict, and a significant number of parties are very interested in sustaining these conflicts. I have just completed a sequence for an upcomming widely released feature film which deals with issues of surveillance by governments. (By the way do you do a Fryan wankfest here and announce it on the board :-)-it counts I guess.) Mostly though I am hoping that there will be a turn, a change soon, the terrible news above sure does seem to suggest more and more desperation. On one hand the issue tires me, on the other hand, the center left has obviously been asleep but are waking up hopefully. I don't know if I have anything to contribute to the debate actually, I just try to do my stuff and perhaps comment through that. I didn't involve myself with the debate on that picture on the other thread though I almost did. Frankly I have made about 11 short films on issues dealing with the representation of gender, childhood etc, and couldn't add much, though I would probably agree with most of what Simon Strantzas writes. In any case, peace indeed and debate away. (Today I get to see Iron Man) maybe he could drop by and lend a helping hand :-) | ||
| Griff (Griff) Username: Griff Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.100 |
Karim, this gives an indication of the situation in the UK: http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/andrew_anthony/2008/05/who_was_misrepresente d_now.html In terms of personal experience one of the kindest and most genuine people I've met was a gentleman from Jordan. However, I've also lost two Muslim friends. One after he told me his views of Jews and the holocaust and another who suddenly started taking his faith very seriously indeed. This is set against a background of increased bigotry and militancy by Muslim groups at my old University - these are intelligent educated people, it doesn't bode well for the future. If it were White Europeans expressing these views there would, rightly, be outrage. There should be freedom of religious conscience, equality for men and women, people of non-Abrahamic faith and gay folk. | ||
| Karim Ghahwagi (Karim) Username: Karim Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 83.93.30.31 |
I can see the challenges Griff! And yes everyone should be treated fair - and hateful propaganda should be delt with. (And just saw Iron Man on the big screen- it was great!) | ||
| Griff (Griff) Username: Griff Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.100 |
Iron Man rocks! Indiana Jones next for me, Karim | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
Just in - latest news from China - apparently the two mile high tower of really sharp knives and hurty cudgels has collapsed on the nearby orphanage district, spewing knives and hurty cudgels everywhere. And Israel have launched a pre-emptive strike against the earthquake just in case it spills over into their territory. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.129.20.239 |
If Iraq had an earthquake we might all start getting along. People don't realise that we're quite nice, really, given the chance. That's why I hate those terrorist down syndrome people and little kids; they don't like us! What are they thinking? | ||
| Griff (Griff) Username: Griff Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.100 |
"If Iraq had an earthquake we might all start getting along. People don't realise that we're quite nice, really, given the chance." Our kindness is viewed as weakness, Tony. Sorry but true. How much will we have to give up so we can 'get along'? How much more will be wanted? It will never be enough. | ||
| Karim Ghahwagi (Karim) Username: Karim Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 83.93.30.31 |
Griff I saw the Indy Trailer in front of Iron Man...I don't know...but I'm definatly there on Friday ;-) | ||
| Mick Curtis (Mick) Username: Mick Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.163.48.60 |
That new Indy film hasn't had very good writeups so far... | ||
| Karim Ghahwagi (Karim) Username: Karim Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 83.93.30.31 |
Jeps- we were talking about that Aint it Cool review on the other thread...I'm scared it is going to be sort of a homage- to -the- previous- pictures kind of film...but that would probably work a little bit for me. I liked the old school look, but it also looks more 'polished' especially with the CGI stuff. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.156.110.243 |
Griff, I take your point about the agenda of Arab terrorism – but looking for an explanation of it in the Koran is rather like trying to explain the Troubles in Northern Ireland in terms of a dispute over the ontological status of the communion wafer. Religion has a role in building ideology and in recruiting adherents to a cause, but all wars and acts of terrorism are inevitably political. By ascribing political violence to religious belief, we can dismiss it as 'pure' unreason – if we accept that its motivation, reasons and causes are political, we raise awkward questions about why (historically speaking) it has come about, and what we may ourselves be involved in. There are political, not religious, reasons for the rise of Arab terrorism, just as there are political reasons for Israel's occupation of Palestine and bombing of Lebanon, and America's decision to invade and occupy Iraq. Reasons are not justifications, however. To understand Al-Qaida, it doesn't help to try and read its program as coming from the Muslim faith. Al-Qaida is an organisation founded by a rebel faction of the Saudi ruling class with military training provided by the CIA. It has harnessed widespread anger in the Arab world against American power, but it does not represent the Arab world collectively – nor does it represent a socialist or collectivist movement – and nor does it represent Islam. The Good Friday Agreement is an impressive example of conflicting factions agreeing to a peace accord that puts religious questions to one side, and accepts that the only way for warring communities to work towards peace is for the rights of all communities to be accepted. It came about because nearly all of the factions involved recognised that their long-term interests were better solved by a peaceful solution. A comparable accord in the Middle East is a long way off, but would require a genuine commitment to peaceful political solutions on the part not only of the Arab states, but also Israel and the USA. Meanwhile, the demonisation of Islam serves only to foster the agendas of all those to whom war is politically more advantageous than peace. If bin Laden's agenda is labelled 'Islamic' then his followers can go on denying that he is driven by political ambition, while the West can go on denying that many of his followers are driven from their end (not his) by genuine political grievances. And so it goes on. | ||
| Griff (Griff) Username: Griff Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.100 |
"Griff, I take your point about the agenda of Arab terrorism – but looking for an explanation of it in the Koran is rather like trying to explain the Troubles in Northern Ireland in terms of a dispute over the ontological status of the communion wafer. " What part of my posts didn’t you understand, Joel? If you check the news reports you'll find this extends beyond the Gulf and the "agenda of Arab terrorism". Do some research. You'll find there is no, I repeat, no Muslim majority country that doesn't have institutional discrimination against non-Muslims. As an example of a moderate Muslim country and ally: http://www.deccanherald.com/Content/May182008/foreign2008051868666.asp?section=u pdatenews The murder and intimidation extends beyond the Gulf and Arabs, Joel. How do you explain the murder and intimidation of Buddhists in countries that aren’t involved with the conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan? Read the news reports about the decapitation of Buddhist schoolgirls in Malaysia and Indonesia. It is a world wide phenomena, it doesn't have an ‘Arab agenda’, sadly it has an Islamic one. People of different nationalities throughout the world are involved with this. It isn’t a new phenomenon that can simply be blamed on Western imperialism and the war in Iraq. Why are there so few Buddhist in India, the land of its birth? Read up about dhimmitude status and the fact that sharia is non-negotiable. Also look at the main schools of jurisprudence on the interpretation of sharia with regards to apostates, gays and the treatment of women. “…but looking for an explanation of it in the Koran is rather like trying to explain the Troubles in Northern Ireland in terms of a dispute over the ontological status of the communion wafer.” From what you've written I take it you haven't read the Quran, The Sunnah and sharia have you, Joel? If you believe there should be freedom of religious conscience, equality for men and women, people of non-Abrahamic faith and gay folk, Joel. I suggest you do some reading as to what exactly the Quran, The Sunnah and sharia law state about these issues. Again, the murder and bigotry that's occurring isn’t a modern phenomena caused by foreign policy. It’s sadly mandated within Islam itself. Have the courage and integrity to read about it before you write. | ||
| Griff (Griff) Username: Griff Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.100 |
The Quran gives clear statements about dealing with non-believers. As well as the rights of women, people of non-Abrahamic faiths and gay folk. None of the five schools of Sunni Islam differ in their interpretation of these matters. It's important to remember that Muhammad is regarded as the perfect man and a template for others to follow. However, his activities included taking part in the execution of bound prisoners of war and selling their wives and children into slavery. His activities are acknowledged and revered today, nobody will contradict or criticise him - nobody. This is hard for us to grasp because it is not part of our cultural or religious background. It feels distasteful discussing it, not least because he did much worse atrocities. But when our societies are threatened and calls are made to integrate aspects of sharia into British Law then it is VITAL that we do discuss them so we can appreciate what has happened and what could happen. Terrorism has it's origins within the Quran and the activities of its creator, Joel. I will be happy to discuss this and provide relevant material. | ||
| Chris_morris (Chris_morris) Username: Chris_morris Registered: 04-2008 Posted From: 12.165.240.116 |
Ooh. Just what this board needs: Another nice, lighthearted subject for discussion. My pathetic attempt at changing the subject: Look everyone! Puppies! http://tinyurl.com/2fnuut | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.180.145 |
I don't mind discussions on 'serious' issues, as long as it's kept polite and people don't resort to being patronising and condescending. But yes, puppies - far more important as far as I'm concerned! | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
Do you suppose fear of the dark is a form of veiled racism?   | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.145.131.242 |
You could say black people adopting the name 'black' is some sort of admission of allegiance to things black, i.e. night, death's cloths, Captain Black etc, and that in this way they have made some sort of allegiance to evil, and that we should be wary of them. They really, really should have called themselves brown.  | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.145.131.242 |
CLOTHES. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.145.131.242 |
Um, I hope people could see I was being ironic there, btw.  | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
...and slowly Tony began to peel back the skin of his chest, revealing an intricate puzzle of mould covered stone, gold nodules and pools of bubbling purple mud... | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.145.131.242 |
But you see, 'we're brown!' just doesn't sound cool. So now we get frowned on for saying 'black comedy' (without meaning films by Eddie Murphy) just because they knew they were picking an intrinsically cooler name than 'brown', and also validating that evil is, by way of it, 'cool'. See - the preoccupation with being cool is bad. They get to be 'black' and we get stupid words like 'brownout'.  (btw Is it racist to grumble about these things? It feels separate to me - I hope it is.) | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.244.67 |
The answer is hidden somewhere in The Chessington World of Adventure. | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 79.70.107.111 |
When I worked in Moss Side and Hulme in Manchester, as a rehousing officer, I talked to a girl about Shakespeare and black comedy - she called me racist. I found it rather ironical as I had just come back from a rally against racism in Paris. | ||
| Griff (Griff) Username: Griff Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.100 |
@ Allybird I think you'll find this interesting: Andrew Anthony - The Fallout: How a Guilty Liberal Lost His Innocence It helped explain many of the things I saw at Uni and the LA I worked at. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.156.110.243 |
Griff, I'm sorry, but your aggressive tone just betrays a lack of confidence in your own arguments. How old is Islam? It's nearly as old as Christianity. How old is 'Islamic' terrorism? One generation at most. Where did it start, and why? You won't find the answer in the Koran. You'll find it in the history of the Middle East over the past forty years – specifically, the CIA training camps where bin Laden and other aspiring Arab military leaders were trained to attack civilian targets in Soviet-controlled Afghanistan. As for the abuse of woman, gays and non-Muslims in Muslim countries – I'm not denying for a moment that these are real and serious matters. But they are not about religion: they are about social politics. Do we regard the Crusades, the Inquisition, the witch-hunts and other Christian atrocities as representing the true nature of Christianity? No, any more than we equate the IRA with Catholicism or the UVF with Protestantism. It's not that simple. No world religion is a monolith. Look for the politics, not the faith. Otherwise you're forced to assume that John Wesley and Ian Paisley stand for the same things. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.145.131.242 |
Yeah, these idiots 'use' their religion. They're idiots first. I was in a church hall cafe the other week (it's a quiet place to write) when this guy came over and suggested that because I wrote I must read, and might therefore like one of his pamphlets. I took one and never looked at it; it seemed about teens and drugs and stuff. On my way out one of the old dears who work there came over and apologised; 'He's a christian but he's not like us. We don't push our faith on people.' I got home, read the leaflet; it said kids mustn't touch themselves, have sex before mariage, stuff like that. This bugged me a bit but what moved me was what the old lady said, and it's what I'll take as being more representative of christianity (and religion)as opposed to what the guy was trying to foist on me. | ||
| Griff (Griff) Username: Griff Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.100 |
"Griff, I'm sorry, but your aggressive tone just betrays a lack of confidence in your own arguments." Nothing aggressive in my tone, Joel. You made several assertions and claims that I've refuted. You then go onto make the exact same assertions. I can provide further material if you require proof to substantiate my argument that the seeds of the violence is within the Quran and The Sunnah together with the behaviour of Muhammad. I take it you haven't read the Quran, The Sunnah and Sharia have you? Reread what I've written in my previous posts. | ||
| Griff (Griff) Username: Griff Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.100 |
Hi Joel. “How old is 'Islamic' terrorism? One generation at most. Where did it start, and why? You won't find the answer in the Koran.” “As for the abuse of woman, gays and non-Muslims in Muslim countries – I'm not denying for a moment that these are real and serious matters. But they are not about religion: they are about social politics.” You’ve made two clear statements there. A constructive way to conduct this debate would be for us both to review those aspects of the Quran, The Sunnah and sharia that, e.g. mandate and encourage violence to non-believers. Together with a discussion of the historical activities of Muhammad, particularly in relation to Jews, people of Non-Abrahamic faiths, women and children. I think this would be better than merely throwing statements at each other - using actual material will enable us to gauge the validity of each others arguments more effectively. Is that acceptable to you? Since we're both discussing a subject and have differing views I'd be grateful if you could tell me how much of the Quran, The Sunnah and the sharia you've read and what translations you’ve used. I want this to be conducted in a spirit of open and honest debate. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.156.110.243 |
Griff, I'm not so conercerned about 'the seeds' as I am about the soil in which they grow. St Paul said, "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." Does that, in itself, explain why the Inquisition tortured and killed over ten million innocent women in three centuries? If so, why are we even bothering to discuss Islamic terrorism when Christian terrorism is clearly a far greater problem? And weren't the Crusades a Christian terrorist campaign directed at the Arab world? I'm not arguing with your information, Griff, just the way you interpret it. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.156.110.243 |
Our postings crossed there. But I don't suggest we discuss the Crusades, the Inquisition and the witch-hunts as expressions of Christian doctrine. You're pointing to facts and I'm talking about what they mean. We don't need need to continue this argument. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
Wow, Griff's read the Quran! (There you go - your pat on the back) ;-) | ||
| Griff (Griff) Username: Griff Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.100 |
"Griff, I'm not so conercerned about 'the seeds' as I am about the soil in which they grow." "I'm not arguing with your information, Griff, just the way you interpret it." The two are not mutually exclusive. That's why I suggested we also discuss the activities and behaviour of Muhammad. For historical context and continuity we can also examine the activities of his successors. There is an unbroken chain that stems back to the activies and words of the founder. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.156.110.243 |
If you say so. Once again, I would say: is there is an unbroken chain from Christ to St Paul to Torquemada to the current Pope? Or from Martin Luther to John Wesley to Ian Paisley to Pat Buchanan? Are there really any unbroken chains of 'tradition' anywhere? Tell me whatever you want to, Griff. I'm not arguing with your information. I'm not suggesting that you have your facts wrong. | ||
| Griff (Griff) Username: Griff Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.20.21.144 |
"Tell me whatever you want to, Griff. I'm not arguing with your information. I'm not suggesting that you have your facts wrong." Hmmm... | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.145.131.242 |
Ah, I can see what you are both saying but you can't! Joel is saying you are right in your facts, Griff, but that people are flexible, and use their own flaws to adapt texts to their needs. The muslims have been in Britain a long time and we've gotten along dandy, more or less. We have behaved badly over the centuries - as a christian nation - but have changed, as have catholics. Other factors push people over the edge. Going back to my old ladies; they really weren't behaving very christianly but the guy with the pamphlets was - but who was the good one, there? As those folk in northern Ireland have shown us, too, folk can change. | ||
| Griff (Griff) Username: Griff Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.100 |
"Griff, but that people are flexible, and use their own flaws to adapt texts to their needs. The muslims have been in Britain a long time and we've gotten along dandy, more or less." Tony, the use of the texts to commit violence isn't due to misinterpretation. If you check the behaviour of Muhammad he was involved in the execution of bound and unarmed prisoners of war and the sale of their wives and children into slavery. When asked by his followers whether it was allowed to have sex with the females, he told them it was no different to using their right hand. It's distasteful to talk about it but it's true. That's why I'm happy to provide evidence within the Quran and The Sunnah. The violence within Islam isn't a modern phenomena it is part of Islam, and it started with the behaviour of Muhammad. | ||
| Chris_morris (Chris_morris) Username: Chris_morris Registered: 04-2008 Posted From: 12.165.240.116 |
More puppies! http://tinyurl.com/6cb6c9 (Careful, the one on the left has a brown face and is quite possibly Muslim.) | ||
| Griff (Griff) Username: Griff Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.100 |
You're intimating that this is a race issue, Chris. It’s not. | ||
| Griff (Griff) Username: Griff Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.100 |
There should be freedom of religious conscience, equality for men and women, people of non-Abrahamic faith and gay folk. | ||
| Griff (Griff) Username: Griff Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.100 |
To reiterate my position: There should be freedom of religious conscience, equality for men and women, people of non-Abrahamic faith and gay folk. | ||
| Chris_morris (Chris_morris) Username: Chris_morris Registered: 04-2008 Posted From: 12.165.240.116 |
>> You're intimating that this is a race issue, Chris. It’s not. Nope. Just referencing Albie's/Tony's comments about brown/black (as well as your own about Islam). Believe me, I'm staying out of this argument. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.145.131.242 |
Er, I was just trying to be windy-up. As well as feeling sorry for the word 'black'. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
>>Do you suppose fear of the dark is a form of veiled racism? I can see how someone may take that seriously. At least Chris Morris takes me seriously! (haha, he doesn't) | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.156.110.243 |
It's just a pigment of your imagination. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.244.67 |
What? But? OH! HAHHAHH! Pigmen? angina? Vangina? Nation? |