| Author | Message | ||
     Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.3.214 |
[from the trades:] S. DARKO Drama, Indie Logline: Donnie Darko's sister Samantha, dealing with her broken family, flees town with her best friend when they are plagued by bizarre visions. (05/30/2008) [Sequel] Buyer(s): Producers: Ash R. Shah Seller(s): Stars: Daveigh Chase, Elizabeth Berkley, Briana Evigan, Ed Westwick, Justin Chatwin Comments: Chris Fisher will direct this sequel to cult classic 'Donnie Darko.' Project has also been called 'SAMANTHA D.' | ||
| Mick Curtis (Mick) Username: Mick Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.159.153.186 |
FFS... | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 61.216.32.107 |
I wonder is she's still in Sparkle Motion. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 83.98.9.4 |
There are times when you wish they'd leave well alone. Donnie is one of the classics of recent cinema. We don't need a sequel. Anyone want to pitch Citizen Kane 2 to the studios, see if they bite... | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 83.98.9.4 |
Citizen kane 2 - Rosebud's revenge - People are found dead in the street, covered in sledge tracks, could it be linked to the death of CK? | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 212.74.96.200 |
Cocoon 2 was pretty bad, I remember. Some films don't need sequels. | ||
| Griff (Griff) Username: Griff Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.100 |
Much to my surprise Bride of Chucky wasn't just better than the first films, but was a great film full stop. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.145.131.242 |
There are worse films you could watch than any of the Chuckys. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
I cannot believe they are going to strap us in a chair, take money out of our bank accounts/wallets and force us to watch this film!  | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.145.131.242 |
How do you post pics? That you watching Field of Dreams again, boy? | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
Dunno what was on TV when I took the pic. The column seems to mirror my finger. How? Camera. PC. USB. Feet. Library. PC. USB. I've just been banned from the Thomas Ligotti forum because I said he had a mental illness. The man in on powerful medication! He's mentally ILL!! | ||
| Griff (Griff) Username: Griff Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.100 |
Is Albie your son, Tony? | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.145.131.242 |
Sometimes. I hate forums, apart from this one. Go back and say he's black or something. Or white. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.145.131.242 |
It feels like you can get kicked off by saying simply 'you are...' on some of them. Ramsey is short sighted. A bit plump. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.145.131.242 |
Bet it wasn't Ligotti kicked you off. It's like David Lynch's board. They didn't accept anyone new and different there, either, it felt like. Very cliquey it was. When lynch came on you could see him struggling to have a chat about mundane stuff, but they were all wanting him to be weird. Poor bugger. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
The problem with websites now is that they are not run by impartial people. They are run by fans and pals of all the other fans on the forum. One of them insulted me so I insulted him. I never said anything about anyone on that shit site. All I said was Ligotti was mentally ill. Fact. He is. And if that cuunt fuucker yellowishhaze who lurks here, like the knicker wearing cocck fucck he is wants to say something about me he can fuckking cockk fanny fuckk twattting vomit fuckking do it here. Twatt tittting puke cockk! | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.145.131.242 |
The word 'fans' makes me shiver like a Jacob's Ladder headed man. They can make a thing go crap, fans. They must never mix personally with the thing they love, and definitely NOT with the people who quite like it. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.145.131.242 |
I love impartial people, btw. And impartial newspapers - or used to; they don't exist anymore, new ones are like paper political parties. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.145.131.242 |
Anyone watch The Apprentice? Sid James is great in it. I thought he was dead. And that bloke, 'Rafe', with his pitch black weird eyeholes! 'I think under all these swanky clothes and words there's no-one there'. What a horrible thing to hear about yourself. He was like one of these people who want to be vampires and nag vampires into biting them, only they kill them instead for being so bum-licky. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.244.67 |
http://www.ligotti.net/showthread.php?t=1648 look at this debacle.I'm clearly insulted by some bum fuk Mr Cheev on page 4 "Congratulations on being happy, Albie, you win. What, I have no idea. Along with being happy, I would add that you are ignorant, immature, and tactless. The village idiot is always the happiest person in town." http://www.ligotti.net/showthread.php?t=1648&page=4 And I'M the one banned. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.244.67 |
Even though most of the other people on the thread seem happy to continue with me (give them their due). Mr Cheev? Mr Chav more like. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.145.131.242 |
Sigh. It's the fan thing of them being scared to agree with you in case Mr Laggety pops in and decides he doesn't like them for not supporting him enough, and says they can't be his fans anymore. Boring site anyway. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.3.207 |
Reading those two threads, scanning them, wow... the back of my palm is calloused from stifling yawns.... Mr. Liggotti's philosophy?!... Color me cynical, or dismissive, but I think his "philosophy" is the same as any other writer's: to come up with a story cool enough to tell. All else is affectation. Writers can lie through their teeth to me about their beliefs, about themselves... just tell a good story. If memory serves me, it was the "twat titting puke cockk" angst-choked arrogant sentimental fake-affected "philosophizing" that killed DONNIE DARKO for me. I was able to sip a delicious shadenfreude milkshake off the reception of SOUTHLAND TALES. (I do admit, I'm afraid to actually see it, though, to discover it might not be as bad as all that. Hell, I'm as petty as anyone....) | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.145.131.242 |
Darko had a nice mood, though. And I do like a bit o' mood ('with me tea', to paraphrase the much-missed Donald). | ||
| Griff (Griff) Username: Griff Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.16.241.160 |
Where is Donald? | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.145.131.242 |
Hmm. He's sort of been down. Apparently he is on a bit of an up, but not a great one. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 83.98.9.4 |
The sound of Music II, Maria rebel killer nun When the Nazi’s finally catch up with the Von Trapp family, Liesl is viciously tortured to death and the rest of the children are locked in a basement with their father to starve, only the decomposing corpse of their brother stands between them and slow death. Meanwhile maria has to teach Vice Marshall Goering to sing Edelwiess. When she escapes captivity the hills are alive with the sound of screaming as she embarks on a bloody rampage to try to free her beloved adopted family. A light hearted musical comedy for the whole family | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.249.146 |
Depression skews logic: especially opinions concerning outlook on life and humanity in general. Albie, you've never been so true. That woke me up a bit; made me realise that my own depression is creeping back. Ta, mate. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
Erm, anytime. Actually, I knew full well calling Ligotti mental would upset them. But I had to do it. The man is such a pain, even if he writes great stories. His latest interview is nothing but wordy self-spanking crap about how pointless you all are and how you would be better off not being born. The man suffers from anhedonia which makes the sufferer feel everything is pointless. So for him to adopt that in his opinions of life in general seems pretty thoughtless. He should be smart enough to recognise his own mental decay and alter it. Not that I don't agree that everything is pointless. But sitting around whinging about it and crying is just stupid. And now the owners of that site have warned me off contacting members of the site! Considering I can only do that on sites outside of the Liggoti forum then that's pretty much what these tiny people are about. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
I can see where you're coming from, Albs. That whole Ligotti scene has kept me at a distance because of the emo-self-pitying associated with it. I think Ligotti's stuff is often great, but I also find it very...tiring. I love bleak fiction, but his is too relentless, and a lot of it leaves me cold. When he's good, though, he's very, very good. It's taken me ten years to read two-thirds of The Nightmare Factory, that bumper collection of his. I can only do 2 or 3 stories a year. :-/ | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.24.122.40 |
I guess some artists just function in a uni-dimensional mode: Kafka, Ligotti, Lovecraft, et al. I don't think artists have an obligation to reflect the full range of experience (and certainly not a moral one which might instruct their audience that things might be otherwise), but I must admit to valuing most those who do: Shakespeare, Liszt, Beethoven, et al. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 06-2008 Posted From: 86.161.241.208 |
Can one judge what sort of person Beethoven was *just* from the music, Gary? Some of the movements of his Late String Quartets for example? Re Ligotti, there is a Virgin book of his stuff coming out on the mass market soon and then people in airports etc who pick it up will be able to judge for themselves the fiction, without, hopefully, any rumours ("emo-self-pitying associated with it") about the author that may or may not be true or may or may not put them off enjoying it. des PS: I don't really like discussing Ligotti with the heading NOOOOOO!!! AAAAAUGH!!!  | ||
| Griff (Griff) Username: Griff Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.100 |
You big poof, Fry! | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.24.122.40 |
>>>Can one judge what sort of person Beethoven was *just* from the music, Gary? I wasn't talking about the artist, Des. I was talknig about the range of the work. I was replying partly to Gary Mc's post. Griff: ? | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 06-2008 Posted From: 86.161.241.208 |
I'm still a bit mystified, Gary. Why does Beethoven reflect the full range of experience more than, say, Kafka? (A decision on that would then refelect on the artists themselves?). Beethoven might have created *more* work, but in artistic spirit? That's a question of personal taste or instinct deriving from the music or the books? Obviously Beethoven is considered a great composer, and that stems from lots of factors. | ||
| Griff (Griff) Username: Griff Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.18.29.70 |
Gary: We fear what we don't understand. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.24.122.40 |
>>>That's a question of personal taste or instinct deriving from the music or the books? Depends where you locate the meaning of the material? I'm not one of those who reckons it's all a question of interpretation. The Pastoral symphony has 'affordances', as does the Fifth - and there's a gulf of experiential elements between them, in my opinion. I certainly don't feel that variety of experience in Lovecraft, for example. Or take Shakespeare - the difference between, say, Hamlet and Twelfth Night, or Othello and Henry the Fourth. Great range. Can Kafka (as an example; I don't intend to get into a debate about his work) claim such diversity? Which is not devalue what Kafka offered. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.24.122.40 |
Or Liszt: compare the Dante symphony to the Piano concerti and then to the later religious harmonies - incredibly range. However, recall: I'm not making a value-judgement about any of these people. I simply said that I personally prefer those artists who explore both sweet and sour (that's from Shakespeare, you know; not the local takeaway). | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.149.134.59 |
Ligotti's interviews often make painful reading, though I think his stories in recent years have been some of his best ever. He's a professional writer, not a professional interviewee. And yes, the fandom cult around his personality and views is tiresome. The best response, I feel, is to keep your distance from such forums and just enjoy the fiction for what it is – very capable and original work. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 06-2008 Posted From: 86.161.241.208 |
Interesting, Gary. Never come across 'affordances' before. Have you studied Aesthetics? Yes, I think I see what you mean now, i.e. broadly, if one is wanting Emotion X in art, Artist A may indeed provide this Emotion better than Artist B does it, but Artist B may also do Emotion Y as well as Emotion X whilst Artist A doesn't? Relating this to Horror (what we are about on this forum), that is an Emotion in this sense... (I use 'Emotion' for want of a better word). | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 06-2008 Posted From: 86.161.241.208 |
I agree, Joel, with what you say about Ligotti. But relating to what you say about forums, we are on a writer's forum at the moment. And very enjoyable and fruitful it is, too. As is the Ligotti one. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.24.122.40 |
Des, that's a useful way of putting it. Might some artists be driven uni-dimensionally - have such a powerful capacity to endure/express a specific cluster of emotions that all else is bleached to insignificance? Btw, the notion of affordances is J J Gibson's, a theorist of perception. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 06-2008 Posted From: 86.161.241.208 |
I presume your question is a rhetorical one? Thought-provoking. Hmmm. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.24.122.40 |
Well (he said lapsing into speculation about the artist), depression is characterised by a shutting off of all emotion, a deadening of it. Maybe the depressed artist can only express the deadness of life because that's all s/he feels. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.24.122.40 |
What I get from Liszt, for instance, is a feeling of great suffering (the later religious works), great joy (the piano concerti), awe (the Dante symphony, sentimentality (the Consolations), sympathy with the Devil (the Faust symphony), joie de vivre (the piano fantasies), meditation (Annees de Pelerinage), etc. Immense range. Liszt obviously had a rich life. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 06-2008 Posted From: 86.161.241.208 |
But that, Gary avoids the consideration of the joy of joylessness, the positive kick I get from listening to Penderecki, Xenakis or Leonard Cohen ... or speculating on the gradual depletion of self as demonstrated in the latest DR WHO episode. | ||
| Griff (Griff) Username: Griff Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.100 |
"Maybe the depressed artist can only express the deadness of life because that's all s/he feels." Is there a link between "horror" writers and the black dog and also those who get something out of reading it? | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 06-2008 Posted From: 86.161.241.208 |
My last post crossed with your Liszt one. Immense range. Liszt obviously had a rich life. you say? Well he may have done. I don't know. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.24.122.40 |
>>>Is there a link between "horror" writers and the black dog and also those who get something out of reading it? We've discussed this before, and I think we decided that although there's probably a positive correlation, it's not a conclusive one. Des, yes, that's true, but then we get into that argument about the reification of emotions. After all, words for emotions are only indices, not the complex experiences themselves. We may lack a word for the joy you describe, but I wouldn't describe it as the joy whose meaning is 'sedimented' in the collective consciousness. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.24.122.40 |
>>>Well he may have done. I don't know. You and your intentional fallacy thing! :<) | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.24.122.40 |
Right, I'm off to cut my wrists over Coronation Street. Will Ken and Dierdre get their new bathroom suite? Argh, the angst... | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 06-2008 Posted From: 86.161.241.208 |
I used to watch Coronation St (from when it started in 1960 uintil around 2003). I don't know why I stopped. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.24.122.40 |
I don't watch it really. But my partner does and I often catch bits. Honest. ;<) | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 79.78.89.55 |
I'm an Emmerdale girl myself. I like my Ligotti and my Aickman but the Dingles still entertain me. | ||
| Griff (Griff) Username: Griff Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.100 |
I like those police docs where they follow speeding crackheads through the backstreets of Bradford or some other grim northern cityscape. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.24.122.40 |
I don't watch any telly. Don't even know why I pay my licence fee. Oh, hold on, yeah - football. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 06-2008 Posted From: 86.161.241.208 |
Gary said: After all, words for emotions are only indices, not the complex experiences themselves. I agree with that. But, even taking into account the rough-and-ready nature of language, I did mean, in observation of my own emotions, the 'joy of joylessness' within art. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.24.122.40 |
But can you honestly say that that's the same experience as you might derive from, say, Mozart's 'Jupiter' symphony? When I listen to that work, I derive great joy from both its celebration of life as well as the perfection of the craftmanship, etc. When I read, say, Ramsey Campbell's prose, it's a different experience: there's the same joy involved in the craftmanship, but that's modulated by dread of the subject matter. It feels different. That's why I say that this word 'joy' is too catch-all; it covers a range of emotional responses far too nuanced for a single word, and demonstrates the inadequacy of our language to capture the richness of experience. It's merely an index of innumerable enigmas. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.145.131.242 |
'PS: I don't really like discussing Ligotti with the heading NOOOOOO!!! AAAAAUGH!!!' This board's always been a bit like that, thank God. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
>>Well (he said lapsing into speculation about the artist), depression is characterised by a shutting off of all emotion, a deadening of it. Maybe the depressed artist can only express the deadness of life because that's all s/he feels. That's exactly what I meant. Ligotti's form of...emotional problem...exactly mirrors his view of the entire world (literally reality itself, yours and his). I find that too coincidental. Clearly one has brought about the other. Who can say which started first? If the illness came first then I would be highly suspicious of the philosophy. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.24.122.40 |
Freud and Sartre are two people who seemed to confuse their own 'difficulties' for universal truths. Which is certainly not to suggest that their approaches are worthless. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.145.131.242 |
Not worthless - just to be approached with caution. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.24.122.40 |
I'm much persuaded that Kafka's sense of persecution was born of his experience of his arbitararily punitive father, but that shouldn't reduce his contribution to 'world thought' to merely a personal pathology. Perhaps that experience allowed him to perceive the hither side of stuff the rest of us invariably miss. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.24.122.40 |
>>>Not worthless - just to be approached with caution. Then again, in a postmodern sense, is *any* theory free of such personal elements? That's what phenomenology was trying to address, and what Heidegger claimed was impossible. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.24.122.40 |
For me, this all returns to another thread in which I claimed that all thinkers, artists, et al, provide maps of reality, and not the territory itself. In fact, now I think, I reckon certain readers have a map of reality already, and that they are drawn to specific thinkers, artists, et al, who seem to be working with a similar map, though possibly in a more nuanced and insightful way. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.24.122.40 |
Albie, isn't the issue here that Ligotti is espousing a jaundiced view of existence, that he should remember that, as it were, "happiness, too, is inevitable"? Doesn't that imply that the artist has a kind of moral obligation to her/his audience? Do artists have to do that? I don't know. Maybe they should above all be true to their 'maps'. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.244.67 |
When the audience is capable of sounding off about the artist's work (and views of life) then he has a responsibility to be logical. For his own sake. Or hire people to block the audience.  Ligotti says he cannot imagine a world that would not be as nightmarish as this one. Clearly he has no imagination for pleasure. Like maybe having A new story of his to read every day. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.149.134.59 |
As Theodor Adorno said, the splinter in your eye is the best magnifying glass. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.24.122.40 |
Smashing that mirror Shakespeare held up to reality. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 06-2008 Posted From: 86.161.241.208 |
'PS: I don't really like discussing Ligotti with the heading NOOOOOO!!! AAAAAUGH!!!' This board's always been a bit like that, thank God. ======= Yes, Thank God. That's why I added a laughing smiley. des | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 06-2008 Posted From: 86.161.241.208 |
But can you honestly say that that's the same experience as you might derive from, say, Mozart's 'Jupiter' symphony? When I listen to that work, I derive great joy from both its celebration of life as well as the perfection of the craftmanship, etc. When I read, say, Ramsey Campbell's prose, it's a different experience: there's the same joy involved in the craftmanship, but that's modulated by dread of the subject matter. =============== Yes, experience of art is diverse, as it is of life. And one must test the best way to express Emotion X (whether negative or positive emotion) and if, in art, it is expressed to the optimum, then the aesthetic result is, short-hand, 'joy'. I could go into nuances of this but I suspect I would need more time and more space than in a conversation (albeit fruitful in itself) on a busy message forum. Probably a book! But I hope you see what I mean - roughly. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.242.184 |
...all thinkers, artists, et al, provide maps of reality, and not the territory itself. In fact, now I think, I reckon certain readers have a map of reality already... This is what I believe, Gary. We're drawn to those who most echo what we "believe," or more accurately, who represent our highest ideals in a kind of tangible form. We also like playing with "fairy tales" that we don't believe, or don't even subscribe to, if we're in complete control of the situation. THE STRANGERS might be a thrilling ride of a movie... but we don't ever want to actually experience such raw aesthetic splendor in its actual form.... And then, there's those areas in our "territories" we've labled, on our own maps, Verboten! Not only do we not allow ourselves to "go" there, we're not allowed to fantasize playing in that radiation zone - hell, to even glance in that direction. One would think it a rich place to mine horror fantasies/pleasures... but it's not... it's where (we're convinced) complete destruction of the self waits; and it can and will call you there to die, if you even prick up your ears to listen for it.... | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.24.122.40 |
Good point, that second one. That may be why I'm reluctant to read Aickman... | ||
| Chris_morris (Chris_morris) Username: Chris_morris Registered: 04-2008 Posted From: 12.165.240.116 |
>> For me, this all returns to another thread in which I claimed that all thinkers, artists, et al, provide maps of reality, and not the territory itself. Isn't this why literary critics seem to agree that true "realism" isn't possible in literature? That even the most meticulous writer permits only subjective versions of reality into fiction? But this means that even artists like Shakespeare are admitting only a portion of "reality" into their work -- the rest being subjective viewpoint. So even if such writers' canvases appear large -- larger than, say, Kafka's -- no writer can write more broadly than his consciousness allows. It's like the ocean being funneled through a spigot: some spigots are bigger than others, maybe, but at the end of the day they're all just spigots. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 06-2008 Posted From: 86.161.241.208 |
Isn't this why literary critics seem to agree that true "realism" isn't possible in literature? That even the most meticulous writer permits only subjective versions of reality into fiction? ========= It's a long story but I've formulated a theory of 'magic fiction' as an obverse of 'magic realism': http://www.ligotti.net/showthread.php?t=818 | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.24.122.40 |
Yep. That's exactly it. Pisser, eh? Still, get enough spigots together... What is a spigot, anyway? :<) | ||
| Chris_morris (Chris_morris) Username: Chris_morris Registered: 04-2008 Posted From: 12.165.240.116 |
Des, re: your "magic fiction" -- I'm not sure I understand. One of the hallmarks of magical realism is the intrusion of unreality into the otherwise realistic (again, there's no such thing as realism, but you know what I mean) plot, setting, characters of the fiction. The difference, though, between magic realism and horror fiction, which also (often, anyway) features the intrusion of unreality into reality, is that the characters in magical realism do not recognize the unreal element as being out-of-the-ordinary. (I'm speaking broadly here; there are exceptions.) Because of this, magical realism is a largely poetic literary genre: the unreal elements are easily viewed as symbols or metaphors. While it's true that the unreal elements in weird fiction can also be viewed as metaphors (and rightly so, much of the time), the fact that the fiction is constructed to provoke a specific feeling (ie, horror or awe, etc) takes the focus of the work away from poetry and metaphor -- and because of this, the metaphoric qualities of the unreal elements in weird fiction can seem unintended or accidentally included. (Aickman's stories, however, are great examples of poetry and metaphor enhancing rather than confusing the intended goals of weird fiction.) At any rate, I'm left wondering what the inverse of this would be: what is "magic fiction" if not merely "fiction"? | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 83.98.9.4 |
I am therefore I think. Am I putting Descartes before the horse? | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 06-2008 Posted From: 86.161.241.208 |
Des, re: your "magic fiction" -- I'm not sure I understand. Me, too! ;-) This is more of a religion than a science, an approach that seems eminently more suitable to fiction than any other. No? Here is my subsidiary brainstorming thread: 'Fiction as Religion'}: http://www.ligotti.net/showthread.php?t=668&page=1 | ||
| Chris_morris (Chris_morris) Username: Chris_morris Registered: 04-2008 Posted From: 12.165.240.116 |
Okay, now I'm really confused. I'm afraid I don't see the connection between your "magic fiction" and the suggestions you're making about fiction as a religion in your thread. However, regarding fiction as religion, probably your suggestions are not far off base. Surely if one views a "fiction"'s author as divine or as inspired by God (or perhaps I should say a god), he or she may view the fiction as holy writ. It doesn't seem like too big a leap to make, although I can think of no examples. On the other hand, I know many people who view the Bible as fiction, but that's probably not what you're talking about ... | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.16.84.250 |
Weber - now do a Kant/Balzac joke.  | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 06-2008 Posted From: 86.161.241.208 |
Magic fiction produces such a strong suspension of disbelief it becomes reality but this is only through some religious process (or sensibility inherent in mankind) outside of some 'sect' of public religion. | ||
| Chris_morris (Chris_morris) Username: Chris_morris Registered: 04-2008 Posted From: 12.165.240.116 |
Okay, I see the connection. But I'm still unsure what "magic fiction" is. How would such a term's definition differ from the definition of "fiction" itself? | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 06-2008 Posted From: 86.161.241.208 |
Well, for me, the definition is, in the *capability* to fulfil the definition just given: Magic fiction produces such a strong suspension of disbelief it becomes reality but this is only through some religious process (or sensibility inherent in mankind) outside of some 'sect' of public religion. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 06-2008 Posted From: 86.161.241.208 |
PS: That definition seems axiomatic, but it's just that my two brainstorming threads (linked above) provided, hopefully, the deep 'transformational grammar' below that theory rising into articulate existence, tussling through the membrane of the eyeball into sight...?. | ||
| Chris_morris (Chris_morris) Username: Chris_morris Registered: 04-2008 Posted From: 12.165.240.116 |
But isn't any sufficiently well-written fiction "capable" if producing some sort of reality-bending suspension of disbelief? There are a number of people who believe Sherlock Holmes was real, for instance, or who think Dracula was a vampire. When The Blair Witch Project was still playing in theatres, many people traveled to Burkettsville, Maryland to investigate the witch. Many characters from literature have crossed the line into the real world; I'm sure some people believe Jean Brodie was real, or Hannibal Lecter, or Atticus Finch. I'm not sure a religious process was needed to make this jump, though. I think it's easy to blur the line between fact and fiction. (Now I'm thinking of James Frey, who couldn't keep the facts in his memoir from crossing the line into fiction.) Doesn't this sort of thing happen all the time? | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 06-2008 Posted From: 86.161.241.208 |
I'm not sure if your last post crossed with my previous one or not, but yes. I'm just trying to articulate it, underpin it, with a suggestion that a belief in Sherlock Holmes is never complete (there is always an undercurrent of disbelief even though 'he' is a real human being with no fantastical extra powers ---- while Susanna Clarke's 'Mr Norrell and Jonathan Strange', for example, has fantastical characters but the belief in their existence is complete and not tinged by disbelief - hence magic fiction. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.176.202 |
Craig – have you ever experienced the frustration when you want to empty your balzac but you're tired and you just kant? | ||
| Chris_morris (Chris_morris) Username: Chris_morris Registered: 04-2008 Posted From: 12.165.240.116 |
Forgive me, Des: I'm still confused, I think. Are we talking exclusively about fantastic fiction? In what way are Susanna Clarke's characters different than any other author's characters? I'm afraid I don't understand what "but the belief in their existence is complete and not tinged by disbelief" means. Can you clarify? | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 06-2008 Posted From: 86.161.241.208 |
The critique of pure pair goriot | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 06-2008 Posted From: 86.161.241.208 |
Chris, well this is all personal opinion, but some characters become real while others remain fictional. Sherlock Holmes is in latter category, while Susanna Clake's characters are former. The former is by a process of what I call magic fiction. I was simply trying (in my two brainstorming threads) to give the 'magic fiction' process a hypothetical 'transformational grammar' (underpinning), to make readers, hopefully, see how it worked (as a fictional or, even, fictitious theory) to enable them to make it work even better. A fiction of a fiction, strengthening each other as two negatives make a positive in some mathematical circumstancess. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 06-2008 Posted From: 86.161.241.208 |
Big Brother starts tonight! :-) | ||
| Chris_morris (Chris_morris) Username: Chris_morris Registered: 04-2008 Posted From: 12.165.240.116 |
Perhaps you're just commenting on personal taste. I haven't read Clarke's book, so I can't speak to the "reality" of the characters, but I'm confident that many readers find Sherlock Holmes more "real" than the characters of any fantasy novel, no matter how well drawn they are. But again, there's no such thing as "realism" in fiction; readers have only authors whose vision of reality most closely matches their own. Perhaps Clarke is one such author for you, Des. And, again, I'm not sure any "process" -- other than the process of suspension of disbelief accorded to any well-written work of fiction -- is necessary here. On the other hand, if you're referring to the relative "roundness" and "flatness" of characters (to use EM Forster's terms), you might do well to read James Wood's excellent article on the subject, here: http://tinyurl.com/6hzl8u | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 06-2008 Posted From: 86.161.241.208 |
Thanks, Chris. I do sometimes feel as if I'm exploring the unexplorable! But, ranging from Proust via EM Forster to Ligotti to Campbell to Elizabeth Bowen to Susanna Clarke to Anita Brookner, I do find there is land that does *need* exploring, albeit wearing a clown face and wielding a wonky compass. :-) | ||
| Chris_morris (Chris_morris) Username: Chris_morris Registered: 04-2008 Posted From: 12.165.240.116 |
You're right, Des. So much to read, so little time. I recall being saddened as a child when I realized I wouldn't be able to read all the books in the library ... | ||
| John_l_probert (John_l_probert) Username: John_l_probert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 90.209.204.82 |
"I do find there is land that does *need* exploring, albeit wearing a clown face and wielding a wonky compass. :-)" Lovely. I explore wearing a blue two piece single breasted shot through with a pink pinstripe and wielding a swordstick. The important thing is to dress for the occasion | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 06-2008 Posted From: 86.161.241.208 |
Very dapper, John! des I see that the new Big Brother that has just started has a cage full of dolls' heads with no eyes! | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 06-2008 Posted From: 86.161.241.208 |
I'm a big LOST fan, too. But I haven't got Sky. :-( I've seen up to series 3, though. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 67.116.103.246 |
Hmm... I was expecting something along the lines of flopping one's Balzac down on someone's Kant, at the library say, but... yours, Joel, though lacking in consistent themes, was still familiar enough to be satisfying, and delivered a nice twist, a with stylish flourish. Total score: 8.5.  | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.24.122.40 |
So...what is a spigot? | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 06-2008 Posted From: 86.161.241.208 |
A tap. I have a story in 'Weirdmonger' called THE SPIGOT AND THE SPEECHMARK (originally published in 'Deathrealm' in the mid-Nineties). des | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 06-2008 Posted From: 86.161.241.208 |
CONE ZERO cover, if any interested: http://tinyurl.com/58fq77 | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 212.74.96.200 |
Uh, interesting title, Des. Any aprticular reason? Reminds me of the GET SMART thingy, the Cone of Silence. Oh, and they're remaking CAPRICORN ONE apparently. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.5.152 |
The names of the authors who created the short fiction within this book are shown below but not in the same order as the titles in the contents list.... That's a singularly bizarre disclaimer. To splash across a back cover.... Why then put them in this jumbled order? It's not like they were alphabetical or anything. Will readers really be so miffed that the list doesn't match the back cover, they will simply not buy the book? ??? | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 06-2008 Posted From: 86.161.241.208 |
Cone Zero, Mark, is a near anagram of the previous book ZENCORE (a herbal viagra). Not sure I understand Craig's point. It's so that nobody knows who wrote which story. (Some previous editions had the list in the *subsequent* edition). The list on the back of Cone Zero was picked out of a hat randomly in front of The Queen. http://weirdmonger.blog-city.com/cone_zero_under_way.htm | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 212.74.96.200 |
>>Cone Zero, Mark, is a near anagram of the previous book ZENCORE You're gonna run out of anagrams eventually, Des. Throw a few more letters in. Hope the book does well for you! | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.0.183 |
Okay, that second link explained all, Des. I knew there had to be a logical a reason for the bizarre statement on the back of that book. Of course, now I'm left asking, about the gimmick of the book... um... why? | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 06-2008 Posted From: 86.161.241.208 |
Well, it's a gimmick I've lived with now through 7 or 8 issues of these books. 'The Silence In The Library'? | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.229.73 |
I'm not trying to cast aspersions; I just legitimately don't understand why an author would want something he's written to be published, without his name attached to that specific story. Unless it's really not a big secret, it's just a - maybe not "gimmick," not the right word... conceit?... theme? - that the authors play around with, then promptly go off and reprint/otherwise reveal their stories, elsewhere. To each his own, I suppose.... | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 06-2008 Posted From: 86.161.241.208 |
Well, the writers earn money... And two stories have got into the pages of YBF&H - and others have had good reviews - many many Honourable Mentions etc . and I've had some well-known and lesser-known names ... and I could go on about its 'philosophy' and acclaimed effects as a phenomenon... | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 06-2008 Posted From: 86.161.241.208 |
Oh, I forgot to mention the pole-dancing. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.255.195 |
I guess the upside is, everyone can claim they wrote the story that got the best reviews....  I live here a stone's throw from Hollywood, where the writer's guild has committes of members (revolving, unpaid: one of your "responsibilities" for being in the WGA) poring over different versions of scripts, to weigh and determine the seperate changes in various drafts, and tally percentages to determine, finally, who does and does not get a vital credit on any given film.... Me, I want people to know I wrote something. Unless nobody likes it... which is why I always use a pseudonym....  | ||
| Grant (Grant) Username: Grant Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 67.176.207.225 |
I happen to be in Nemo 8. The upside is there is no bias in the reviews and you're sure to get published alongside some good authors and there's the money. The names are eventually attached to the stories sometime in the future. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 06-2008 Posted From: 86.161.241.208 |
Thanks, Grant. And if anyone is interested enough to go into this a bit deeper: http://www.nemonymous.com or http://www.weirdmonger.com | ||
| Adriana (Adriana) Username: Adriana Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 70.52.151.112 |
I havn't had a chance to read this WHOLE thread yet, but I'm very upset about this potential Darko sequel. Growling here in my room. grrrrrrrrrrr grrrrrrrr GROOOOOOOOOOOOWL! | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.252.148 |
The thread gets wacky, A, but yes, you are right to growl angrily and upsetly - "upsetly"? is that a word? - at the prospect of a DONNIE DARKO sequel. Because DONNIE DARKO was not a movie worthy of further discussion. And that ends that thread, forever, end of subject, my point taken by all, times infinity. Or "... taken by all times infinity" for you Oxford comma-phobes out there.  | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.108.2.40 |
That's not an Oxford comma, Craig. It may look like one, but it's actually part of an idiomatic construction that is not a list. Dropping the comma actually distorts the sentence. You know it's an Oxford comma if if you don't miss it when it's not there. Like a Robbie Williams single. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.241.71 |
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| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 06-2008 Posted From: 86.161.241.208 |
The Cone Memorial opens in London today; http://tinyurl.com/572lhx To mark this serious occasion and without detracting from it, pre- orders for 'Cone Zero' are now possible: http://weirdmonger.blog-city.com/cone_zero_under_way.htm |