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Allybird (Allybird)
Username: Allybird

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 88.104.140.73
Posted on Monday, June 14, 2010 - 03:18 pm:   

I'm way too excited about this to hold back any longer so it would be good to say which authors Joel and I have started looking at and have defiantely decided are in the anti-racist, anti-fascist anthology NEVER AGAIN. We can go from here to build it up from the many other wonderful submissions for it.

http://grayfriarpress.com/catalogue/neveragain.html

If anyone can work out how to put the cover on here I'd appreciate it :>). Artwork by DANI SERRA.

There is one young talented lady called Kate who is going to be over the moon to be in it with Ramsey, Joe R. Lansdale and Lisa Tuttle, to name but a few...

It will take a little longer to decide on authors who sent more than one story in and from the other amazing writers who have sent contributions in, too but we won't keep authors waiting long. I believe in spreading good news as it happens...we also need to choose from what Ramsey and Joe Lansdale have kindly offered.

LISA TUTTLE. IN THE ARCADE.
SIMON KURT UNSWORTH. A PLACE FOR FEEDING.
THANA NIVEAU. DEATH OF DREAMS.
JOHN HOWARD. A FLOWERING WOUND.
R.J.KRIJNEN. VOLK.
RHYS HUGHES. REDIFFUSION.
ROSANNE RABINOWITZ. SURVIVOR'S GUILT
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Kate (Kathleen)
Username: Kathleen

Registered: 09-2009
Posted From: 213.122.209.76
Posted on Monday, June 14, 2010 - 03:45 pm:   

neveragain
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Monday, June 14, 2010 - 03:49 pm:   

Just gorgeous, and a brilliant idea!!
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Allybird (Allybird)
Username: Allybird

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 88.104.140.73
Posted on Monday, June 14, 2010 - 08:28 pm:   

Thank you for posting the cover, Kate and congratulations at being one of the first to be named (pseudonym Thana Niveau) in the anthology!
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Mick Curtis (Mick)
Username: Mick

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.179.206.84
Posted on Tuesday, June 15, 2010 - 01:05 am:   

Great cover - looking good, guys. I'm hoping to meet Thana at FCon. If she's anything like Kate, I'm sure she's lovely!

:-)
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Kate (Kathleen)
Username: Kathleen

Registered: 09-2009
Posted From: 213.122.209.76
Posted on Tuesday, June 15, 2010 - 07:24 am:   

Awwwww...
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 91.110.175.226
Posted on Tuesday, June 15, 2010 - 08:58 am:   

Ally, that should be R.J. Krijnen-Kemp (aka Rob Kemp) – a story that some RCMB members may remember from Nasty Piece of Work.
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Stu (Stu)
Username: Stu

Registered: 04-2008
Posted From: 86.25.50.10
Posted on Tuesday, June 15, 2010 - 09:00 am:   

Ah, I was wondering if he'd started using a pseudonym.
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Allybird (Allybird)
Username: Allybird

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 88.104.140.73
Posted on Tuesday, June 15, 2010 - 09:08 am:   

Understood :>).
John Travis mentioned VOLK at Alt.Fiction on Saturday. NASTY PIECE OF WORK was around before I started getting involved with the small press.
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Allybird (Allybird)
Username: Allybird

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 88.104.140.73
Posted on Tuesday, June 15, 2010 - 10:20 am:   

Thank you Steve! Much appreciated :>).
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Allybird (Allybird)
Username: Allybird

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 88.104.140.73
Posted on Tuesday, June 15, 2010 - 10:21 am:   

And I hasten to add it was Joel's idea and then he asked me.
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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 212.219.233.223
Posted on Tuesday, June 15, 2010 - 10:50 am:   

Does "Volk" have anything to do with Stephen Volk?
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Allybird (Allybird)
Username: Allybird

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 88.104.140.73
Posted on Tuesday, June 15, 2010 - 11:21 am:   

Everyone keeps asking that :>). No it isn't. Great to have you in the antho..Rhys!
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Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey)
Username: Ramsey

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 195.93.21.74
Posted on Tuesday, June 15, 2010 - 12:52 pm:   

Hurrah for all, not least Dani Serra!
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 217.37.199.45
Posted on Tuesday, June 15, 2010 - 01:28 pm:   

This will be good. Ally and I were clear from the start that this would not be a catalogue of atrocities, but a book of strong, angry political narratives that embodied a positive awareness of human rights. And that's what we have. As Ally says, there are many decisions still to make, but we should have a final ToC before long.
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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 212.219.233.223
Posted on Tuesday, June 15, 2010 - 03:11 pm:   

Remember, Joel: careless ToC costs lives!
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Allybird (Allybird)
Username: Allybird

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 88.104.140.73
Posted on Tuesday, June 15, 2010 - 06:29 pm:   

Pete Tennant in WHITE NOISE, BLACK STATIC kindly ran a rather nice promo for it in issue 16 April-May. People are starting to talk about it on blogs and FB, and posting the link back to Gray Friar Press.
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Huw (Huw)
Username: Huw

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 61.216.46.95
Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2010 - 11:57 am:   

Well done, Joel and Ally.
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Skunsworth (Skunsworth)
Username: Skunsworth

Registered: 05-2009
Posted From: 92.16.93.143
Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2010 - 09:42 pm:   

This is looking very fine indeed - extremely pleased to be a part of it!

S
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Steve Bacon (Stevebacon)
Username: Stevebacon

Registered: 09-2008
Posted From: 90.204.111.249
Posted on Friday, June 18, 2010 - 06:49 pm:   

Top stuff. Can't wait to read this antho.
Congrats to Joel and Ally and the contributors.
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Allybird (Allybird)
Username: Allybird

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 88.104.140.73
Posted on Friday, June 18, 2010 - 08:17 pm:   

'This will be good.' It will and thank you!
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Mark West (Mark_west)
Username: Mark_west

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.171.253.12
Posted on Friday, June 18, 2010 - 11:25 pm:   

Sounds great
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Simon Bestwick (Simon_b)
Username: Simon_b

Registered: 10-2008
Posted From: 86.24.209.217
Posted on Friday, June 18, 2010 - 11:33 pm:   

I'm in a few anthologies this year, but none I'm prouder to be in.
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Mark_samuels (Mark_samuels)
Username: Mark_samuels

Registered: 04-2010
Posted From: 86.133.23.20
Posted on Friday, June 18, 2010 - 11:36 pm:   

This was invitation only, I presume?

I'd have been up for it otherwise.

Mark S.
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Mark_samuels (Mark_samuels)
Username: Mark_samuels

Registered: 04-2010
Posted From: 86.133.23.20
Posted on Saturday, June 19, 2010 - 01:07 am:   

Actually, this might be interesting.

How were the contents decided upon? I mean, I'd have loved to have been in this one, so how would have I gone about being considered for publication?

Mark S.
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 91.110.197.209
Posted on Saturday, June 19, 2010 - 01:36 am:   

Mark... I wish you'd taken this up with me directly instead of raising it here. There have been issues, stuff has gone on, that meant Ally and I didn't contact you. That might seem unfair, but it reflects the fact that things said have consequences. And for the record, two of your published stories would have been worth considering for reprint. Arguments within the genre are regrettable and best avoided. And nobody pushed me to make any decisions I made. This isn't a great answer, but you have to be mindful of your own impact on other people's sensibilities. If you want to discuss this further, you're welcome to e-mail me.
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Mark_samuels (Mark_samuels)
Username: Mark_samuels

Registered: 04-2010
Posted From: 86.133.23.20
Posted on Saturday, June 19, 2010 - 01:45 am:   

I thought so.

Thanks Joel.

Mark S.
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Mark_samuels (Mark_samuels)
Username: Mark_samuels

Registered: 04-2010
Posted From: 86.133.23.20
Posted on Saturday, June 19, 2010 - 01:50 am:   

Now I know I'm blacklisted.

Mark S.
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Mark_samuels (Mark_samuels)
Username: Mark_samuels

Registered: 04-2010
Posted From: 86.133.23.20
Posted on Saturday, June 19, 2010 - 02:12 am:   

So much for the right to free speech and holding an opinion that doesn't tie in with group-think.

Great.

Mark S.
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 91.110.172.148
Posted on Saturday, June 19, 2010 - 02:15 am:   

Do I really have to spell it out... there is no blacklist, Mark, and no-one is trying to cause you problems – but when you are engaged in an unnecessary conflict with someone, a project that that person is central to is not a project you'll be involved in. There's really no need to assume you're the victim of some anti-Mark campaign, or that your work is not held in high regard. It just comes down to etiquette.
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 91.110.172.148
Posted on Saturday, June 19, 2010 - 02:16 am:   

Can I request that any further discussion on this point be conducted off-site? Thanks.
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Mark_samuels (Mark_samuels)
Username: Mark_samuels

Registered: 04-2010
Posted From: 86.133.23.20
Posted on Saturday, June 19, 2010 - 02:43 am:   

I actually think it necessary that RCMBers realise that anyone who criticises the work of a certain individual who posts here is liable to be blacklisted.

From what you've said Joel, had I not criticised the work of that certain individual, I would have been considered for inclusion in your anthology.

Sorry, but it's a matter of principle, for me.

Mark S.
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 75.4.245.75
Posted on Saturday, June 19, 2010 - 02:45 am:   

Er - can I change the subject with a question that I've just been wondering about lately, now that I've finally gotten back into reading anthologies? (And this one looks good!)

I've just been curious how the whole payment thing works for writers - I don't mean actual amounts, but is there some standard, or is every anthology different? Like this Ellen Datlow I'm reading, maybe vs. an all original anthology. Are authors paid a set amount for their story, and/or they get royalties? Or is everything based on sales, so they get an upfront amount vs. actual sales that occur? Are they paid per word, or are amounts wildly negotiated, depending on the author, the length, etc.? Do name authors make more if the anthology uses their names on the covers, etc., to sell them (like Ramsey's name or Stephen King's name)? Does placement in an anthology mean anything - being first, or last, vs. anywhere else?

Just wondering if you or anyone would like to peel back the curtain for the lay person, on what goes on to put an anthology together....
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 91.110.172.148
Posted on Saturday, June 19, 2010 - 02:54 am:   

Mark, for the love of God, you are missing basic issues of etiquette and decency here. You're making yourself out to be the victim of a smear campaign when nothing of the kind is going on. Just step back and apply some sense. Who are the editors of this book? Representing yourself as a victim is disingenuous. Just be sensible, please. And I have nothing more to say.
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Mark_samuels (Mark_samuels)
Username: Mark_samuels

Registered: 04-2010
Posted From: 86.133.23.20
Posted on Saturday, June 19, 2010 - 03:04 am:   

I have stepped back. But some people can't follow suit.

I've got nothing to prove. But others do, and they'll follow up their emptiness with all guns blazing.

Mark S.
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 91.110.172.148
Posted on Saturday, June 19, 2010 - 03:07 am:   

Craig – that doth vary widely. Check the specific guidelines for any anthology. Professional anthologies normally pay per word as an advance on royalties, with further payments being possible if the book does well enough. One-off payments are also common, the aim normally being to save on paperwork rather than to exploit the author. It's possible that famous authors might get higher rates, but I suspect the impetus would come from them rather than the editor.

Never Again is an unusual case in that the only people getting paid are the printers: any profits will be donated to human rights charities. The figures will be made public.
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 75.4.245.75
Posted on Saturday, June 19, 2010 - 03:13 am:   

Thanks, Joel, that's illuminative.

And by the way, I read that, on the site, about donations from proceeds being made to various organizations. That's commendable! I will promise to pony up come September....
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 91.110.172.148
Posted on Saturday, June 19, 2010 - 03:21 am:   

Mark, if you want to blame anyone, blame me. My decisions are based on my own criteria of etiquette. No-one is twisting my arm. Your support for the principle of this anthology is appreciated. Why can't you take on board the very straightforward response I have offered? How is it a matter of principle if that involves writing off very obvious issues of good manners?
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Mark_samuels (Mark_samuels)
Username: Mark_samuels

Registered: 04-2010
Posted From: 86.133.23.20
Posted on Saturday, June 19, 2010 - 03:23 am:   

I'd love to be a part of this project, with my work providing aid to these causes, but again, I'm denied being able to do so by personal animosity.

Dance around it any way you like, but that's how it is.

And it stinks.

Mark S.
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 91.110.172.148
Posted on Saturday, June 19, 2010 - 03:30 am:   

Blame me and my own personal standards of etiquette, manners and good behaviour. Don't blame any conspiracy or pressure you might imagine. And don't think I don't care.
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Allybird (Allybird)
Username: Allybird

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 88.104.140.73
Posted on Saturday, June 19, 2010 - 10:22 am:   

Thank you to Paul Brazill for spreading the word on the anthology.

http://pdbrazill.blogspot.com/2010/06/guest-blogger-allyson-bird-never-again.htm l
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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 80.4.12.3
Posted on Saturday, June 19, 2010 - 10:43 am:   

Mark: there are plenty of editors who often 'forget' to invite me to contribute to anthologies or other projects, usually because of my 'opinions' or perceived 'behaviour' or whatever. In a recent situation, a publisher overruled an editor who had already accepted one of my stories, simply because I was on that publisher's blacklist and he had forgotten to inform the editor. That's the way the game is played. Complaining about it is pointless, a waste of time and energy.

If you were the editor of an anthology would you ever solicit submissions from me? Be honest. The answer is that you wouldn't. And if I was editing an anthology I certainly would never ask you for a contribution.

But so what? There are thousands of other anthologies out there.
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Stu (Stu)
Username: Stu

Registered: 04-2008
Posted From: 86.16.9.159
Posted on Saturday, June 19, 2010 - 11:14 am:   

So was the antho invitation only or not? I always assumed it was as I never saw any guidelines. In fact when I first heard about the book several months ago I thought the contents had already been decided. It was only when I read somewhere (probably on Facebook) that another author was currently working on a story that they intended to submit to the antho that I contacted Ally and asked if it would be okay if I sent something.
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Allybird (Allybird)
Username: Allybird

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 88.104.140.73
Posted on Saturday, June 19, 2010 - 11:26 am:   

Invite only, Stu. We kept to that but as the months went by and we realised what word count we had to play with we said yes to a few enquiries for consideration.
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Stu (Stu)
Username: Stu

Registered: 04-2008
Posted From: 86.16.9.159
Posted on Saturday, June 19, 2010 - 11:30 am:   

Fair enough. Just so long as I wasn't the only one trying to gate-crash.
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Skunsworth (Skunsworth)
Username: Skunsworth

Registered: 05-2009
Posted From: 92.16.93.143
Posted on Saturday, June 19, 2010 - 01:33 pm:   

Mark: the expression 'as you reap so shall you sow' comes to mind. I'm assuming (although I've no doubt I'll be told I'm wrong) that if you ever edited an anthology that Ally and I wouldn't be invited to contribute. Swings and roundabouts, I'd say.

S
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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 80.4.12.3
Posted on Saturday, June 19, 2010 - 05:14 pm:   

I agree with that, Simon. I don't think you, Ally or myself would be invited to submit anything to a Mark Samuels anthology, but does it really matter? There's plenty of room for everyone in the writing world and plenty of anthologies are being created all the time...

Of all the anthologies that I most regret not receiving an invitation for, the Jack Vance 'Dying Earth' tribute sticks in my throat the hardest. I would have done something truly special for that but I simply wasn't invited. Certain authors who did appear in that anthology had previously confessed to not caring much for Vance's work -- so why the heck was I left out?

But that's just the way the cookie crumbles. No use in fretting about it!
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Mark_samuels (Mark_samuels)
Username: Mark_samuels

Registered: 04-2010
Posted From: 86.133.23.20
Posted on Saturday, June 19, 2010 - 06:06 pm:   

What we're talking about is a co-edited book and Joel has often expressed high regard for my fiction.

Were it edited solely by Ally I would have had no interest in it.

Mark S.
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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 80.4.12.3
Posted on Saturday, June 19, 2010 - 06:12 pm:   

That's a bizarre comment, Mark. Surely it's the theme of an anthology that's important rather than the editor? Assuming you truly believe in that theme of course...
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 82.26.154.208
Posted on Saturday, June 19, 2010 - 06:16 pm:   

Come on, guys. Let's not squabble. The antho's theme is about rising above such difficulties, surely.
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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 80.4.12.3
Posted on Saturday, June 19, 2010 - 06:26 pm:   

OK, I won't squabble...

Talking about Fascism, one of my favourite anti-Fascist books is The Beautiful Antonio by Vitaliano Brancatti, an Italian novelist who was actually a member of the Fascist Party in the 1930s before he "woke up" and changed his politics completely. The novel is a satire on the compulsory state of permanent virility that all good Italian Fascist males were supposed to endure!
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Skunsworth (Skunsworth)
Username: Skunsworth

Registered: 05-2009
Posted From: 92.16.93.143
Posted on Saturday, June 19, 2010 - 06:45 pm:   

I might squabble! :-)

It's a shame your feelings have been hurt, Mark, but, like I say, the whole reaping and sowing thing comes to mind.

S
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 91.110.241.194
Posted on Saturday, June 19, 2010 - 09:15 pm:   

Rhys, have you read Venedikt Yerofeev's short anti-Stalinist novel Moscow Stations? It's a surreal stream-of-consciousness account of a drunken train journey, blending humour and terror to convey the experience of life under a coercive, bureaucratic regime.
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 06-2008
Posted From: 86.152.176.45
Posted on Saturday, June 19, 2010 - 09:23 pm:   

Hey, just realised I wasn't invited.
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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 80.4.12.3
Posted on Saturday, June 19, 2010 - 10:15 pm:   

If I complained about every invite-only anthology I don't get an invite to, I would be complaining every day of my life, with the possible exception of Sundays.

No Joel: alas I don't know that novel and I've never heard of the writer. I might keep an eye out for it now, though. So thanks for the recommendation.
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 06-2008
Posted From: 86.152.176.45
Posted on Saturday, June 19, 2010 - 10:30 pm:   

If I complained about every invite-only anthology I don't get an invite to, I would be complaining every day of my life, with the possible exception of Sundays
================

Indeed, Rhys. Me too. And I've been depending on invites in the last 10 years, as I haven't been submitting off my own initiative.

I was making the point to show Mark that he wasn't the only RCMB regular not invited.

Also, to Joel, when was 'good manners' of an author something that determines a good story? I think I should resurrect Nemonymous! :-)
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Skunsworth (Skunsworth)
Username: Skunsworth

Registered: 05-2009
Posted From: 92.16.93.143
Posted on Saturday, June 19, 2010 - 11:22 pm:   

Christ, if I missed out on antho invites that I wanted to be in, I'd be a distraught bearded person most days! I think that part of not being distraught is called 'growing a skin'! And I'm not sure I'm spelling distraught right!

Des: Just read the Where the Heart is Review - nice one!

S
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 75.5.3.156
Posted on Sunday, June 20, 2010 - 03:26 am:   

Okay, here's a new question I have about anthologies, because some of the "complaints" above seem to imply something I'm not aware of:

If an author is invited to be part of anthology, is the editor/s then obligated to publish said work submitted?

If someone were invited to submit a story, say, and it turned out to be a stinking turd, or not on-topic enough, or what have you - is the editor then stuck having to put that, say, stinking off-topic turd into the anthology, because hey, that's just what he got?...
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Skunsworth (Skunsworth)
Username: Skunsworth

Registered: 05-2009
Posted From: 92.16.93.143
Posted on Sunday, June 20, 2010 - 08:55 am:   

Craig: no! An invite doesn't guarantee inclusion. As an author, even when I'm invitred to submit, I know I have to produce something good to be included. If an antho has a pseific theme or guidelines, I also have to make sure that I prodice something good and that follows the rules. Only if I do that can I expect to be included...

S
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 82.26.154.208
Posted on Sunday, June 20, 2010 - 09:51 am:   

Absolutely not, Craig. Fortunately, all my lovely authors in the HEART antho did good. Cos they're lovely. Except Unsworth, who's a beardy weirdy.
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Simon Bestwick (Simon_b)
Username: Simon_b

Registered: 10-2008
Posted From: 86.24.209.217
Posted on Sunday, June 20, 2010 - 10:18 am:   

Yup- what Gary and Mr Unsworth said above. And can I just add that I'm proud to be in the anthology.
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Allybird (Allybird)
Username: Allybird

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 88.104.140.73
Posted on Sunday, June 20, 2010 - 10:42 am:   

We have more stories to reread this week. Rest assured (those who haven't been told yet) we are still going through the submissions...discussing them...and will announce a full TOC in the near future. Of course all authors definately accepted have been told.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 82.26.154.208
Posted on Sunday, June 20, 2010 - 10:44 am:   

Mr Bestwick has found a way around this problem. He submits 34,765 stories on the desired theme and you get to picky you of them. Ingenious.
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Simon Bestwick (Simon_b)
Username: Simon_b

Registered: 10-2008
Posted From: 86.24.209.217
Posted on Sunday, June 20, 2010 - 11:01 am:   

That's an unpardonable exaggeration, Prof. No more than 33,237. Some perspective, please.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 82.26.154.208
Posted on Sunday, June 20, 2010 - 11:22 am:   

My maths is clearly as poor as my spelling: "picky you of them"???
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 91.110.153.248
Posted on Sunday, June 20, 2010 - 11:39 am:   

The whole closed anthology thing is difficult. The demands of time get in the way. You just choose a bunch of writers whom you know to have an interest in a theme, and assume the rest will not feel disparaged. One anthology will have very different needs from another. If we'd invited every writer whose work we know and respect the project would have become unmanageable. Apologies to anyone who feels they should have had a shot at this, and apologies in advance to those whose shortlisted stories don't make the final cut.
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Gcw (Gcw)
Username: Gcw

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.158.238.131
Posted on Sunday, June 20, 2010 - 11:46 am:   

As Soozy just said, "Piss someone off , you don't expect an invite to the party."

Dats Life I'm afraid.

gcw
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Mark_samuels (Mark_samuels)
Username: Mark_samuels

Registered: 04-2010
Posted From: 86.133.23.20
Posted on Sunday, June 20, 2010 - 12:53 pm:   

Well, apparently, I'm once again a hot topic for SKU on his gossip-mongering blog.

I'm sure some of you will now rush over to read it and provide appropriate applause. Jolly nice of you.

Mark S.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 82.26.154.208
Posted on Sunday, June 20, 2010 - 01:07 pm:   

Oh, come on, Mark. The phrase "some of you" sounds all wrong, as if some secret society has been established, each member of which is pro-Ally, anti-Mark.

As the publisher of this antho, I feel the need to state that I belong to neither ostensible 'camp'. I can see both sides of the issue, and that's why I've remained silent over it.

And for the record, if I'd have been the editor of this antho, I'd have been keen to have you onboard. I'm a great admirer of your work. But I'm not the editor, and I made it clear early-doors that both Joel and Ally should have carte blanche in their decisions about potential contributors.

If Joel says that he didn't approach you because of the reasons he states (see above), then I personally think that these reasons should be believed and that he should be trusted. He's not a bullshitter. He's honest and smart enough to see all the complexities of this situation. I hope everyone else can do so, too, though I fear - if an entente isn't achieved soon - then it may become something which does the spirit of the book no service at all and shows that the genre is incapable of practicing what it intends to preach.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 82.26.154.208
Posted on Sunday, June 20, 2010 - 01:10 pm:   

And if honesty is what we're after, I personally think Simon Kurt Unsworth's latest blog might have sensibly excluded any reference to this issue. It's not useful at this stage.
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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 212.219.233.223
Posted on Sunday, June 20, 2010 - 01:29 pm:   

Simon's comments about Mark Samuels are fairly mild though, to be honest, and I doubt Mark really feels wounded by them. I know we all occasionally pretend to be thin-skinned for tactical reasons but we're not really that thin-skinned, are we?

I bear Mark Samuels all the ill world in the world, and he bears me an equal amount of malice, but does it really bother either of us? No. I'd like to put him in a bag and hurl him over a cliff, but will knowledge of my desire in this regard spoil his day for even one single second? I doubt it. And vice versa.

I have been involved in many internet battles over the years, and witnessed many others, and I've never seen a single victory or defeat in all that time. Impotence seems to be the main result of all the wasted words.

Moving on...

The theme of NEVER AGAIN is one of the most important of any anthology that has come to my attention in recent years. I believe that Joel Lane has stated that genre fiction is among the most reactionary of all kinds of fiction, and I'm sure he's right in that assessment. But why is genre fiction so reactionary?

The ultimate problem, I fear, is that a form of 'fascism' (with a lowercase f) is a basic part of human nature. I suspect that a form of 'socialism' is also a basic part of human nature but I conclude that the fascist part is stronger and more elemental than the socialist part. So the first step in opposing fascism requires an effort of conscious will against our own dark emotional drives; and this fight must take place before the greater outer struggle can commence.

I, for one, am in constant struggle with my own emotions and urges. True morality consists in using your reason to overrule your emotions when your emotions are inappropriate -- an extremely difficult task. I don't really trust people who claim to only have 'good' intentions.
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 06-2008
Posted From: 86.152.176.45
Posted on Sunday, June 20, 2010 - 01:30 pm:   

I wish the book well.
But this being a discussion forum, I will say that I am not personally at all in tune with the *reasons* given above for exclusion of MS fiction from this book as opposed to the exclusion itself which is none of my business.
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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 212.219.233.223
Posted on Sunday, June 20, 2010 - 01:31 pm:   

> I am not personally at all in tune with the *reasons* given above for exclusion of MS fiction from this book...

That's because he's your friend, Des.
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 06-2008
Posted From: 86.152.176.45
Posted on Sunday, June 20, 2010 - 01:33 pm:   

Rhys, that is an utter rubbish comment and you know it.
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 06-2008
Posted From: 86.152.176.45
Posted on Sunday, June 20, 2010 - 01:35 pm:   

I was one of the prime supporters of the Allyson Bird position in the row last year, also.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 82.26.154.208
Posted on Sunday, June 20, 2010 - 01:37 pm:   

See?
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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 212.219.233.223
Posted on Sunday, June 20, 2010 - 01:40 pm:   

I do.
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Johnny_mains (Johnny_mains)
Username: Johnny_mains

Registered: 04-2010
Posted From: 82.22.75.99
Posted on Sunday, June 20, 2010 - 02:24 pm:   

Mark - lets presume for a moment that Mr Fry and I were doing an anthology (just for the record we're not)and Ally wanted to get in - I would scorch the earth to keep her as far away from it as humanly possible.

As far as I'm concerned the chances that she will appear in an anthology I'll ever work on is near to non-existent and I'm sure she wouldn't want to appear in an anthology that I'm working on. Fair enough.

Now Gary would know the reasons and as co-editor would hopefully concur with what my feelings on it would be.

So, take a step back and understand why I think it is you were not asked. Ally doesn't want to touch you with a bargepole, and that's fair and understandable given the shit that's been happening for so long. Joel, as co-editor would prefer to do it with Ally on board than for her to leave the project - and the knock on effect to the cause they are supporting would be rather sad.

Mark, as a friend, I would say just walk away from this one. There will be other anthologies.
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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 212.219.233.223
Posted on Sunday, June 20, 2010 - 02:43 pm:   

It's a bizarre idea that an editor should ever need to give a reason for not wishing to include a particular author.

If I was editing an anthology there are plenty of authors I wouldn't consider including -- even before reading their submissions. That's my prerogative. I don't have to justify it.

When Harlan Ellison was editing the first Dangerous Visions anthology, he deliberately refused to consider anything by Thomas Disch for reasons of personal dislike (Ellison was quite open about this). So what? Was Ellison damaged by the incident? No. Was Disch damaged? No.

As the actress said to the cliche, it's a storm in a teacup...
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Skunsworth (Skunsworth)
Username: Skunsworth

Registered: 05-2009
Posted From: 92.16.93.143
Posted on Sunday, June 20, 2010 - 03:50 pm:   

Gary - I put the stuff on my blog (rather than here) because my blog is my personal space, and I wanted to have a bit of a rant about a person's behaviour that I thought (and still think) is childish and rather pathetic. I deliberately didn't put anything similar here, because this board feels like it should remain more about reasoned argument. I also don't advertise my blog here, for the same reason, although I agree that this is beginning to threaten to bury the antho, which isn't the point. I'll bet most people here wouldn't have read my blog if MS hadn't raised it here!

Mark: 'gossip-mongering'? Explain please. I think you'll find that there's nothing on my blog (either in this entry or in earlier entries) that's not either my own very specific opinion, or fact (this has been my approach all along when doing blog entries - hardly gossip! Indeed, if you remember, I removed a large piece about your earlier silliness when the Black Book of Horror 6 came out, so that readers wouldn't have their opinions affected before reading either of our stories). And, factually, it was you that raised this issue and started this discssion in a public venue rather than via private email, which is what most of us would probably not have done, thinking that these things are better thrashed out in private. If I was going to gossip, I'd have put something like 'it has come to my notice that Mark Samuels was recently see stalking badgers along the verges of Lakenheath, wishing he'd won a BFS award and muttering under his breath about being treated very badly indeed, poor sap'. But I didn't.

Ultimately, this belongs in the category of 'we're never going to agree with or like each other', which is fine - I neither want nor need Mark's respect or liking, and I'm sure he doesn't want mine. I just wish he'd take responsibility for the outcomes of his actions - you can't talk about people the way Mark did and then expect to be invited to be involved in the things they do later. At this point, unless Mark wants to keep banging on about people not wanting to play out with him, I'm happy to shut up about it. All I'll add, as a final point, is to suggest, Mark, that if people provide 'appropriate applause' when they read my blog, it may mean they agree with me. Ever thought about that?

Back on track: Never Again, whoever is involved, is sure to be a fine anthology, with laudable aims and a good, beating heart at its core Let's celebrate it for the right reasons, not the wrong ones.

S
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 75.4.252.97
Posted on Sunday, June 20, 2010 - 05:17 pm:   

Thanks, Gary, Skuns, et.al.

It does seem the horror anthology has "come back," from my completely anecdotal, totally random, probably mistaken POV. But I have taken notice of a great deal more new-ish horror anthologies in my local Borders bookstores (including not a few THE DEAD THAT WALKs), many more than before - I'd say in the last year or so, the amount has about doubled, from what I've seen. I'm noting this myself, who has, myself, come back to wanting to read such collections again, after a long time burned-out... coincidence? Probably. But I am seeing something going on... I think....
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Steve Bacon (Stevebacon)
Username: Stevebacon

Registered: 09-2008
Posted From: 90.204.111.249
Posted on Sunday, June 20, 2010 - 05:26 pm:   

Mark, if you had been invited, and submitted a story that was subsequently rejected, might there have been suspicion that is was because of yours and Ally's history, and not based on the story's merit?

I'm not saying anyone here is unprofessional enough to do that; I'm just saying that Joel and Ally might have considered that in their reason for not inviting.

I personally think you're a fine writer, and I suspect you might have contributed a wonderful piece of work - given the theme - but I can also think of many other authors who (I'm guessing) were not invited to contribute. Did Gary F invite you to contribute to his anthology? If not, why no hard feeling there? Surely you must have anticipated this from Joel and Ally when the project was announced? A dignified silence might have been the best response. As it is, it could be perceived as bitterness. In my mind, though, I think it's a tad mischievous.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 82.26.154.208
Posted on Sunday, June 20, 2010 - 06:53 pm:   

Well, I did ask Mark S to contribute to Poe's Progeny many years ago, but he was - quite fairly, since that's his principle - asking for more money than I could afford. I would consider any independent submission from Mark S - for a standalone book, maybe - like a shot. He's an important writer.

Simon U: fair enough. It's your blog; you can put what you want on it. But it's also true that the great majority of folk on here who are involved in this issue are also on FaceBook and you certainly drew attention to it there. I just don't think it served any purpose than stoking fires better left as embers. But ultimately it's nothing to do with me.
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 06-2008
Posted From: 86.152.176.45
Posted on Sunday, June 20, 2010 - 07:04 pm:   

It's a bizarre idea that an editor should ever need to give a reason for not wishing to include a particular author.
================
Agreed.
But a reason was given - therefore it's a reason that invites being addressed.
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Skunsworth (Skunsworth)
Username: Skunsworth

Registered: 05-2009
Posted From: 92.16.93.143
Posted on Sunday, June 20, 2010 - 07:08 pm:   

Fair point: I always advertise my blog on FB, as well as twitter. Perhaps I should have left it alone, but then, as ever, if we keep leaving things alone, nothing ever changes, does it? And people keep getting away with acting like children and the message (delivered loud and clear via our silence) is that acting that way is okay. And it's not.

Right, I shall now send a message about this whole sorry situation with my silence! Not about the antho, of course, which I shall continue to champion!

S
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Mark_samuels (Mark_samuels)
Username: Mark_samuels

Registered: 04-2010
Posted From: 86.133.23.20
Posted on Sunday, June 20, 2010 - 11:55 pm:   

A few things.

(1) Had I been editing this anthology with Joel and it had come out that a condition of my co-editorship was that Ally's work be excluded, I'd love to have seen the reaction from certain quarters here. I guarantee that a "desperately seeking sympathy" email would have been fired off by Ally to every author and editor in her address book, as well as spread around on facebook. There would have been an absolute uproar about it, with SKU sticking his oar in at the first opportunity.

(2) And while I think of it: SKU is the last person to lecture me on "professionalism". When he gets bounced by, say a publisher like Ex Occidente, solely on grounds of not providing work of sufficient quality, he squeals (rather than "whines", as apparently I do!) about it on his blog. When he's had a couple of shandies his own "childish" side comes to fore and he might do something like post a nasty unprovoked personal remark, say, about James Herbert. In his defence, however, sometimes, when he's sobered up, he'll apologise and petition for the removal of all evidence. For some reason SKU has decided to present himself as THE paragon of respectable probity: this is the funniest aspect of the whole thing. He's been told by people privately that he's at fault for getting involved in something that was none of his business. He knows it: hence his "oh I'm just a good guy trying to do good" act. Yeah, right, pull the other one.

(3) I long ago learnt that to ignore Rhys is the best policy. If you reply to him without courting his favour as a self-proclaimed genius he eventually "threatens" you with violence. Admittedly, though, this is funny; and I've since lost count of the number of people he's said he'll bash. It's quite a list.

(4) The reason I wasn't in Poe's Progeny had nothing to do with me "not being offered enough money". It was do with the fact that Gary already accepted a "Poe" themed story that had preceded my submission. I think it was the Mike O'Driscoll one. Which was cool. No problem with that.

There, that wasn't so difficult was it?

Mark S.
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Skunsworth (Skunsworth)
Username: Skunsworth

Registered: 05-2009
Posted From: 92.16.93.143
Posted on Monday, June 21, 2010 - 08:50 am:   

Most of this I'll leave, except to correct a factual inaccuracy: I have emails from Dan at EO offering me a collection based on the work I'd already submitted - and I'd appreciate being told if Dan is saying otherwise. My posts about EO were based mostly on the levels of professionalism that Dan was showing (or not showing, to be more accurate) and the fact that his later messages to me (and to others at the same period) were both offensive and incorrect. It's laudable that you defend your current publisher, Mark, even if his reputation is getting slowly worse and worse, and I can only hope that you aren't adversely affected by the fallout of this.

I have a suggestion to make: I think this thread should be locked now. I don't believe it should be deleted, as I think that people should still be able to read what everyone has said in this increasingly ill-tempered debate and make their own minds up about who's at fault and who's a paragon of virtue and sense. If another thread is needed about the etiquette of editing/publishing anthos, then let's start one - that way Never Again (which I think everyone agrees is a good thing on many levels, not least of which is that it's looking like a good book) isn't buried under this rubbish. Another thread for Never Again is certainly needed, but perhaps we could agree to keep discussion on that thread about the contents of the antho, etc, and put our arguments on the other thread?

Just a thought.

S
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Allybird (Allybird)
Username: Allybird

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 88.104.140.73
Posted on Monday, June 21, 2010 - 09:02 am:   

I agree about not deleting the thread. I'll set a new one up for the anthology, soon.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 82.26.154.208
Posted on Monday, June 21, 2010 - 09:02 am:   

>>>(4) The reason I wasn't in Poe's Progeny had nothing to do with me "not being offered enough money". It was do with the fact that Gary already accepted a "Poe" themed story that had preceded my submission. I think it was the Mike O'Driscoll one. Which was cool. No problem with that.

I'm sorry, but that's incorrect. And I'm hoping you're not thinking that I made that point to set you in a poor light. I didn't at all (because I don't believe it does). The situation was that I was seeking a M R James comtributor and asked you, who very decently said yes but - also very decently - asked for a fee beyond my means. Then I asked Terry Lamsley, who was too busy at the time. Finally, Adam Nevill got in touch and that was that. I'm not going to suggest anything so vulgar as "I have an audit trail of emails to demonstrate this", but, well, I do. You didn't submit to PP, Mark, as much as I wanted you there.

Anyway, I'm not getting involved in a splinter dispute. But the facts are facts.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 82.26.154.208
Posted on Monday, June 21, 2010 - 09:05 am:   

As for locking/deleting the thread: only one person gets to make that decision, and that's the owner. I've already consulted him and he says the thread stays.
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Skunsworth (Skunsworth)
Username: Skunsworth

Registered: 05-2009
Posted From: 92.16.93.143
Posted on Monday, June 21, 2010 - 09:17 am:   

Fair enough: I bow to Ramsey's decision! :-)

S
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 06-2008
Posted From: 86.152.176.45
Posted on Monday, June 21, 2010 - 09:23 am:   

Before locking this thread, I'd like to set my personal take on the possible agenda for any future thread discussing issues thrown up by this thread:-

People are discussing this issue because a corner of the curtain has been voluntarily lifted publicly here regarding its process.

It is, however, a complex subject – not one worthy of argument or recrimination or diminishing the chances of the book to succeed.

The subject surrounds considerations regarding (1) a charity book (do you choose authors with known sympathy for the ethos of the charity, for example?) (2) a debate concerning invite only anthologies and (3) dual editorship.

It also concerns the objective of the book to sell so at to do its best for the charity (one I support): do they choose the best stories available over author-names (reprints etc) or vice versa or hopefully both - and which of the editors has a veto or whether they go for half the stories chosen each?

It seems that Mark Samuels would have been in this book (on the count of likely one of the best stories available *and* his name-credit) – an optimum for the book – had there not been a row last year (one in which I took against his position).

I think Mark's exclusion is a shame. And a line should have been drawn under last year's row before now by the parties involved for the sake of the genre.
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Kate (Kathleen)
Username: Kathleen

Registered: 09-2009
Posted From: 213.122.209.76
Posted on Monday, June 21, 2010 - 09:35 am:   

This thread is in desperate need of lightening up.

facebook
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Stu (Stu)
Username: Stu

Registered: 04-2008
Posted From: 86.24.11.144
Posted on Monday, June 21, 2010 - 10:07 am:   

Just to go off a tangent I was listening to some 60s music and stumbled across this Petula Clark track. Not entirely sold on the song yet but I love the story about this particular performance. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NmMRLQIPHk

After Clark had written the anti-war song she invited Harry Belafonte to duet on her NBC special and during one of the takes she puts her hand on his arm. The show's sponsors freaked out, fearing that it would cause an uproar in the Bible Belt and insisted a different version was used. Clark and her husband (the show's producer) not only refused but destroyed all the other takes of the song, forcing the sponsor to back down.

Result!
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Allybird (Allybird)
Username: Allybird

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 88.104.140.73
Posted on Monday, June 21, 2010 - 10:23 am:   

'As for locking/deleting the thread: only one person gets to make that decision, and that's the owner. I've already consulted him and he says the thread stays.'

Des...A few posts up.
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Allybird (Allybird)
Username: Allybird

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 88.104.140.73
Posted on Monday, June 21, 2010 - 10:40 am:   

As with many other invite only anthologies the editors decide who to ask. Joel and I both made lists of who we wanted to invite to the anthology, merged them and sent off emails. We obviously couldn't invite everyone. And both of us have to agree on a story before it gets in. If one of us disagree we discuss it at great length. If we don't agree on a particular story (it has happened with one) Gary Fry will decide on that one. It is, in fact, working out very well with very little disagreement and the anthology will be a mix of relatively new authors and well established ones.
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Kate (Kathleen)
Username: Kathleen

Registered: 09-2009
Posted From: 213.122.209.76
Posted on Monday, June 21, 2010 - 10:57 am:   

As a newbie I'm delighted to have been given a chance and I'm very excited about the project.
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Allybird (Allybird)
Username: Allybird

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 88.104.140.73
Posted on Monday, June 21, 2010 - 11:00 am:   

Which takes us full circle and back to the beginning of the thread. Very happy to have you on board, Kate.
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 06-2008
Posted From: 86.152.176.45
Posted on Monday, June 21, 2010 - 11:09 am:   

Ally, my post was fearing the thread would be locked but my post crossed with Gary's saying it wouldn't be locked. I am pleased that it hasn't.

BTw, regarding 'name-credit', I believe this book will hopefully sell beyond the disputes of our narrow circle (ie take off into the wider world) - where Mark's name means a lot in the Horror genre and not for internet disputes.

If some writers are in the book that have openly lobbied against the Horror genre ethos in the past, it's good they are in there because they must have provided great stories. The bottom line. No other reason for barring anyone other than that, presumably. And also, hopefully, that their name will sell the book.

I think of books as things on shelves in 50 years time. They will live or die as great books, whatever the disputes or failings that preceded them. The books should be published through thick and thin. And good luck with this one.

I'd say the same about Ex Occidente Press books that someone mentioned above.
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Allybird (Allybird)
Username: Allybird

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 88.104.140.73
Posted on Monday, June 21, 2010 - 11:21 am:   

Des. I can only point you back in the direction of all Joel's comments earlier in the thread which I agree with.
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 06-2008
Posted From: 86.152.176.45
Posted on Monday, June 21, 2010 - 11:22 am:   

Fair enough.
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Skunsworth (Skunsworth)
Username: Skunsworth

Registered: 05-2009
Posted From: 92.16.93.143
Posted on Monday, June 21, 2010 - 11:40 am:   

Des: whilst I'd broadly agree (especially about the longevity of books and that good ones last way past our 'in the now' concerns), I'd still imagine that most editors (particularly of closed anthologies) should be able to reserve the right to invite and not invite who they like to be involved. After all, they have to live with the results of their invitation, and produce a product (and books are product if we expect them to sell) that they can hold and be completely happy with. Ultimately, the book will succeed or not, based on the editors decision/s, and we can judge their actions then - if Never Again turns out to be rubbish, then we can throw stone at Ally and Joel to out hearts content (although I don't believe we'll have to!). One of the criticisms might well be that there are significant authors missing - I don't know til I read the book.

So, to go back to an earlier motif of the thread: Never Again. Lookin' good, folks, lookin' mighty good. And I for one am pleased and proud to be a part of it, with or without Mark Samuels or any of the others authors who may not have been invited, or who were invited and didn't have time to contribute.

S
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 82.26.154.208
Posted on Monday, June 21, 2010 - 11:43 am:   

I can't lock the thread and it isn't going to be deleted. Let me ask all to now resist adding to it.

Here's a line drawn under it:

_____________________________________________________________________________
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.155.203.69
Posted on Monday, June 21, 2010 - 11:44 am:   

I think it's ok to have 'invite only' anthos, if you're after a certain feel or vision to your book. It's like a movie or play put together by a producer, using tools and specific individuals to reach an end. Not nice to be on the outside looking in, I suppose, but what the hey - if you've a good piece of work it'll see the light of day eventually.
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.155.203.69
Posted on Monday, June 21, 2010 - 11:47 am:   

BTW while I think it's ok I also think there would be more chance of an antho as opposed to a film or play being even more successful if it were 'open'.
But yes, time and workloads do play their parts.
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Skunsworth (Skunsworth)
Username: Skunsworth

Registered: 05-2009
Posted From: 92.16.93.143
Posted on Monday, June 21, 2010 - 11:47 am:   

I like Gary's line. I'm under it, lookin' up :-)

S
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 06-2008
Posted From: 86.152.176.45
Posted on Monday, June 21, 2010 - 11:48 am:   

that most editors (particularly of closed anthologies) should be able to reserve the right to invite and not invite who they like to be involved.
=================
Yes, I've agreed with that already.
Here, however, on an open public discussion forum (open to contention, agreement, and regarding a charity book against discrimination) - it is at least strongly implied (a volunteering of information) that someone - whose work in my view would have helped the book sell more - is not invited because of his "manners' in an internet dispute (one in which I incidentlly thought Mark was in the wrong). I was just querying that position as I believe others have done outside of this thread. I am now happy that I have got that off my chest, hope the book does well and intend to keep quiet unless provoked! :-)
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 06-2008
Posted From: 86.152.176.45
Posted on Monday, June 21, 2010 - 11:49 am:   

I wrote my piece before reading about Gary's line.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 82.26.154.208
Posted on Monday, June 21, 2010 - 11:50 am:   

Just an amiable request, folks. Feel free to kick the fuck out of each other elsewhere. :-)
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Skunsworth (Skunsworth)
Username: Skunsworth

Registered: 05-2009
Posted From: 92.16.93.143
Posted on Monday, June 21, 2010 - 11:53 am:   

Who's meeting in the park after school? We can form gangs and throw old coke cans and bits of paper at each other!

S
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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 62.121.31.177
Posted on Monday, June 21, 2010 - 12:34 pm:   

As I've said elsewhere, the theme and purpose of NEVER AGAIN is one of the most important I've ever encountered in any anthology.

The question remains: what effect will it have? Will it convert any readers with fascist tendencies to a more tolerant outlook? Very unlikely. So what is the good of it? And what is the good of writers saying (as they often do) they they "support" the cause?

My own view is that the main good that will come of this anthology is that the editors, contributors and readers will have 'nailed their colours to the mast', so to speak -- in other words made a statement of intent (opposition to fascism). That's not much of an achievement really, but it is something; and every such statement in the world of genre writing is important.

If Mark Samuels is genuinely disappointed at not being able to lend his support to this cause, there is still a way he can get involved: he can make a direct donation to the Sophie Lancaster Foundation or other anti-fascist group of his choosing.

This seems to be a good solution to the entire spat.
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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 62.121.31.177
Posted on Monday, June 21, 2010 - 12:38 pm:   

Incidentally, the great Portuguese writer José Saramago died three days ago -- he consistently opposed fascism with every fibre of his prose. I haven't seen many obituaries yet, which seems strange. But what a colossus of literature!
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Frank (Frank)
Username: Frank

Registered: 09-2008
Posted From: 85.222.86.72
Posted on Monday, June 21, 2010 - 12:45 pm:   

Jose Saramago is very much admired here in Poland, Rhys. I was disheartened to read about the controversy surrounding his novel 'Blindness' (translated, obviously. Haven't read it myself, but I was deeply impressed by the film version, heathen that I am.
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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 62.121.31.177
Posted on Monday, June 21, 2010 - 12:48 pm:   

I haven't read BLINDNESS either, Frank. It has been on my bookshelf for a year. Time to move it ahead in my reading list, I guess!

But THE STONE RAFT is an exquisite novel.
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Mark_samuels (Mark_samuels)
Username: Mark_samuels

Registered: 04-2010
Posted From: 86.133.23.20
Posted on Monday, June 21, 2010 - 12:50 pm:   

Gary

For the record, you're quite right about PP. Apologies. I've just realised that was the case, and I'm getting muddled up with something else.

Mark S.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 82.26.154.208
Posted on Monday, June 21, 2010 - 05:07 pm:   

No sweat, dude. :-)
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Frank (Frank)
Username: Frank

Registered: 09-2008
Posted From: 85.222.86.72
Posted on Monday, June 21, 2010 - 06:07 pm:   

Just for the record, and if it makes anybody feel better, I've subbbed to dozens and dozens of anthologies, and not once had an acceptance. Mind you, I don't have a pedigree or reputation as an established writer, so I may be speaking out of my arse.

I was once informed that I'd subbbed the same story twice, and that no amount of subterfuge would help guarantee me success.

Shortly later there was one more magazine to cross off Ralan's listings as it mysteriously went into forced liquidation
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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 80.4.12.3
Posted on Monday, June 21, 2010 - 06:20 pm:   

That doesn't make me feel better, Frank. But I was feeling fine anyway...

I have no advice to give you about getting published other than "keep trying". Bland advice; but it's the only thing that ultimately works.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 82.26.154.208
Posted on Monday, June 21, 2010 - 06:26 pm:   

Kidnapping the editor's spouse is useful as a Plan B.
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Frank (Frank)
Username: Frank

Registered: 09-2008
Posted From: 85.222.86.72
Posted on Monday, June 21, 2010 - 06:27 pm:   

Rhys - Oh, mate, I'm not dismayed. I just wish that with a collection coming out I could generate a bit more interest from some of the anthologies coming out. Though I'd rather be rejected on the grounds of it simply wasn't good enough, and not because I have a collection due out. I've always said, better to be rejeceted by the best, than to be accepted by the worst.
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Frank (Frank)
Username: Frank

Registered: 09-2008
Posted From: 85.222.86.72
Posted on Monday, June 21, 2010 - 06:28 pm:   

Excuse my repetetive use of phrasal verbs constructions. It might be this which renders my subbing point a moot point
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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 80.4.12.3
Posted on Monday, June 21, 2010 - 06:37 pm:   

Don't worry, phrasal verb constructions are my favourite!

Er... what are they exactly?
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Frank (Frank)
Username: Frank

Registered: 09-2008
Posted From: 85.222.86.72
Posted on Monday, June 21, 2010 - 06:53 pm:   

I'm just being a smart arse, and not a particularly clever one, if that makes any sense.

Phrasal Verb: verb + prepositon/particle (sometimes two prepositions/particles)Two types, separable and non-separable, according to the rules and laws of transitive and intransitive verbs.

Quite simply, informal verb constructions that we tend to use in speech more often than their more formal counterparts.

e.g He picked him up from the airport.

(Separable PV) Verb and preposition can be separated by object.

Formal equivalent: He collected him from the airport.

Like I said, Rhys, just being a smart arse. Any TEFL teacher knows this, its just terminology. Only useful when you want to sound impressive to people who don't know anything about teaching English as a second language.

Unless I've missed the biting irony of your question???

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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 80.4.12.3
Posted on Monday, June 21, 2010 - 07:01 pm:   

No irony at all, Frank!

I never studied grammar at school or anywhere else. I opted for the sciences and then studied engineering at university. I still have absolutely no idea what 'perfect past participle' and all that other stuff means...
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Frank (Frank)
Username: Frank

Registered: 09-2008
Posted From: 85.222.86.72
Posted on Monday, June 21, 2010 - 07:05 pm:   

Rhys - you don't need to know. You speak English. Who needs to know what grammatical terminology is when English is your native tongue.

I never had grammar at school either. In fact, I don't know anybody who did.

Other nationalities, especially in Central Europe and Eastern Europe are amazed that we don't have grammar classes or at least classes which incoporate grammar.

Mind you, they have a point, considering the English sometimes spat at me from some drunken dickhead trawling down the street on a Friday night.
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Johnny_mains (Johnny_mains)
Username: Johnny_mains

Registered: 04-2010
Posted From: 82.22.75.99
Posted on Monday, June 21, 2010 - 10:57 pm:   

Back to the anthology:

I'm getting a bit fed up at the way Ally and Joel are patting themselves on the back for being so daring, and brave. As if this one antho will forever end fascism, 'cause the fascists will read it and immediately be so shamed they'll change their ways.

The cynic in me says 'BFS AWARD BAITER' and I can't help but feel that everyone will pat themselves on the back and talk about the one black friend they have in Hackney.

So Joel and Ally, may I present you with the 'Ultimate PC Award For The Best Intentioned Anthology, But Wrong Genre To Do It In' award.

love

Johnny
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Steve Bacon (Stevebacon)
Username: Stevebacon

Registered: 09-2008
Posted From: 90.204.111.249
Posted on Monday, June 21, 2010 - 11:08 pm:   

Come on, Johnny, mate. I thought we were going to leave it now.

As for the BFS AWARD BAITER claim, all I can say is that I won't be swayed by the theme when it comes to voting time. It's the stories that count.
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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 80.4.12.3
Posted on Monday, June 21, 2010 - 11:42 pm:   

You have missed the point, Johnny. It's not about authors "curing" fascism in the wider world -- it's about genre authors (and readers) making a statement about themselves: defining their own positions in the often small-minded and bigoted writing world that we inhabit.
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Allybird (Allybird)
Username: Allybird

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 88.104.140.73
Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2010 - 12:03 am:   

As usual...Johnny, I find your comments rude and offensive.
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Allybird (Allybird)
Username: Allybird

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 88.104.140.73
Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2010 - 12:24 am:   

And wrong.
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 06-2008
Posted From: 86.152.176.45
Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2010 - 08:56 am:   

Johnny, posterity, years hence, will judge the worth of this book itself, not any of the electronic voices on this thread or elsewhere.
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 91.110.172.95
Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2010 - 09:21 am:   

Rhys – indeed, and it's also about demonstrating and exploring the potential of the genre to tackle these issues. As Chris Kenworthy did with Barrington Books: basically saying that just because this is genre fiction, that doesn't mean politics is off limits. There's certainly no illusion that this book will magically impact on political reality – just that it will give readers with an interest in these themes access to some worthwhile material. And the fact that we're choosing to reprint quite a few stories demonstrates that many writers were already interested in these themes – so bringing those stories together serves a valid literary purpose. As a project it's arguably comparable to the American small press anthology No Nukes in the 1980s, which included Joe R. Lansdale's now-classic tale 'Tight Little Stitches in a Dead Man's Back'.
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Kate (Kathleen)
Username: Kathleen

Registered: 09-2009
Posted From: 213.122.209.76
Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2010 - 09:34 am:   

Joe R. Lansdale's now-classic tale 'Tight Little Stitches in a Dead Man's Back'

What a fantastic title! I'll have to look for that one.
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Johnny_mains (Johnny_mains)
Username: Johnny_mains

Registered: 04-2010
Posted From: 82.22.75.99
Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2010 - 10:12 am:   

Ally, always a pleasure and never a chore.
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Allybird (Allybird)
Username: Allybird

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 88.104.140.73
Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2010 - 10:21 am:   

'As a project it's arguably comparable to the American small press anthology No Nukes in the 1980s, which included Joe R. Lansdale's now-classic tale 'Tight Little Stitches in a Dead Man's Back'.

Joel. Just reread that after your post and indeed...it is a powerful story.
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Frank (Frank)
Username: Frank

Registered: 09-2008
Posted From: 85.222.86.72
Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2010 - 11:08 am:   

Johnny - Opinion is important, yours just as much as anybody else's, but baiting people is below the belt. Surely you could have phrased your original statement a little better.

I believe the previous disagreement was Mark's feeling about not being invited, not whether Ally or Joel were angling for a BFS award.

You do yourself no favours attacking Ally, which is what 'Ally, always a pleasure and never a chore' translates as.

Leave it out, mate.
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Johnny_mains (Johnny_mains)
Username: Johnny_mains

Registered: 04-2010
Posted From: 82.22.75.99
Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2010 - 11:41 am:   

Fair enough Frank. Final thought - I just find it highly amusing that it took Ally 20 odd minutes to tell me I was wrong about the reasons behind the anthology after she said my comments were rude and offensive. Her mask slips a little?
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Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey)
Username: Ramsey

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 195.93.21.74
Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2010 - 11:49 am:   

I assume she felt she could reply in her own time, not yours.
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Allybird (Allybird)
Username: Allybird

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 88.104.140.73
Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2010 - 11:53 am:   

'I can't help but feel that everyone will pat themselves on the back and talk about the one black friend they have in Hackney.'

I was so annoyed about that remark that I didn't even think of the other comments until later.
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Karim Ghahwagi (Karim)
Username: Karim

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 193.89.189.24
Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2010 - 11:53 am:   

Johnny Mains: FAIL.

I was not going to comment here, frankly this thread is just heartbreaking, particularly reading this squabble going on here amongst some writers whos work I admire a great deal... but Johnny Mains after having tried to contact you regarding the whereabouts of my book, and as I have not heard anything back after a good 8 weeks, despite sending several inquiring mails, and as you are now here making these kind of comments on Joel's and Ally's anthology- a non profit anthology for a good cause mind you, addressing highly relevant, very important issues, whatever the platform or genre- I frankly couldn't help myself. FAIL. I don't want your Pan Book, please cancel my order, kindly return my funds. As you didn't respond to my previous inquiries I was forced to do it here, in public. FAIL. Strike three.
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Allybird (Allybird)
Username: Allybird

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 88.104.140.73
Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2010 - 11:54 am:   

Crossed posts there, Ramsey. Exactly.
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Jonathan (Jonathan)
Username: Jonathan

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 91.109.166.162
Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2010 - 12:08 pm:   

"frankly this thread is just heartbreaking"

Quite.
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Frank (Frank)
Username: Frank

Registered: 09-2008
Posted From: 85.222.86.72
Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2010 - 12:09 pm:   

Johnny - I'm not trying to make you a scapegoat, and I'm not saying you don't have a right to air an opinion, but I've also been guilty (many times) of expressing myself in a way which automatically causes instant calamity, and know that a more reasonable approach is appreciated.

And I'm not saying that 'if you attack Ally, you attack us all', as I'm sure it might read that way, but let's be honest it is aimed at Ally, and it is aimed at being offensive.

I'm positive you're better than than that.

And just for the record, I DO think that it was disappointing that Mark wasn't invited to the anthology, especially considering his talents.


BUT, I can understand Joel's reasons why it transpired this way. It does make sense, and seems self-explanatory after everything that has happened in the past, BUT to reiterate, it is a shame indeed he won't be included in the anthology.

But, as Rhys said, no point in worrying about one anthology when there are so much mroe out there.

I wish Ally and Joel and the anthology the best of luck.
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Frank (Frank)
Username: Frank

Registered: 09-2008
Posted From: 85.222.86.72
Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2010 - 12:14 pm:   

I meant to say any attack on anybody is offensive, but that well-thought out opinion which is not desgined to hurt one specific person is a much better route to take.
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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 212.219.233.223
Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2010 - 12:46 pm:   

When José Saramago was told that a film might be made of his life, he was asked what actor he'd like to play him. He instantly replied, "Morgan Freeman."

I only learned that yesterday. Anti-fascist to the core, old José!
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Frank (Frank)
Username: Frank

Registered: 09-2008
Posted From: 85.222.86.72
Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2010 - 12:47 pm:   

If somebody were to make a film of my life, I'd like Cate Blanchett to play me. With a Ellen Page playing me as a child.
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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 212.219.233.223
Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2010 - 01:14 pm:   

Are you as good looking as Cate Blanchett, Frank? If you are, I might want to fuck you, be warned...
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Johnny_mains (Johnny_mains)
Username: Johnny_mains

Registered: 04-2010
Posted From: 82.22.75.99
Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2010 - 01:15 pm:   

Hello Karim. I have no comeback to what you are saying except that TWO books have been sent out to you now.

You are more than welcome to air your views/concerns about me on any public forum,that's your right and all the power to you for doing it.

warmest

Johnny
x
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Kate (Kathleen)
Username: Kathleen

Registered: 09-2009
Posted From: 213.122.209.76
Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2010 - 01:20 pm:   

I'd like Camille Keaton to play me, please. But with shorter hair.
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Frank (Frank)
Username: Frank

Registered: 09-2008
Posted From: 85.222.86.72
Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2010 - 01:27 pm:   

Rhys - alas, I am not as good looking as Cate Blanchett, but then again, who is? And you'll get nowhere with me by pussy-footing about the bush...there now should ensue a whole array of puns and double puns on that possible word fest as unleashed by my last sentence.

Kate - I could Wikipedia Camille Keaton, but that would be cheating, so who is she? Let me guess, a seventies horror film actress, or a theatre actress of today?????

Back to 'The Two Faces of Evil'.
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Johnny_mains (Johnny_mains)
Username: Johnny_mains

Registered: 04-2010
Posted From: 82.22.75.99
Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2010 - 01:31 pm:   

I would want to be played by a young Freddie Jones.
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Kate (Kathleen)
Username: Kathleen

Registered: 09-2009
Posted From: 213.122.209.76
Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2010 - 01:32 pm:   

Frank - Right the first time. From What Have You Done To Solange? and the notorious I Spit On Your Grave.
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Weber (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 194.176.105.55
Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2010 - 01:39 pm:   

I'd want Rin Tin Tin to play me as an adult and Skippy the bush Kangaroo to play me as a child.
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Weber (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 194.176.105.55
Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2010 - 01:45 pm:   

voices dubbed by James Earl Jones and Joe pasquale
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Johnny_mains (Johnny_mains)
Username: Johnny_mains

Registered: 04-2010
Posted From: 82.22.75.99
Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2010 - 01:45 pm:   

Fascinating story behind Rin Tin Tin

http://www.rintintin.com/story.htm

An excellent choice of actor Weber... :D
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 217.37.199.45
Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2010 - 01:48 pm:   

I've been a little less upset about this thread since realising last night that it's just an online version of the letters page of a genre fanzine – such letters pages having mostly comprised backbiting, chest-beating and faction-mongering since fanzines first began. But with the decline of fanzines and the growth of the internet, the letters page has sprouted off like a rogue tumour and built its own separate tissue culture (it's certainly not any other kind of culture). That's never been one of my favourite pastimes.

All I can usefully add is that I can't count the number of Asian, black, Jewish, Romany and other ethnic minority people among my family, friends, colleagues, neighbours and the people whose work I watch, hear or read. Racism and hate crime are everyday realities, but so is the positive functionality of a multi-ethnic society.

Horror and speculative fiction are entitled to address real as well as imaginary terrors. Had we been looking at older material we might have sought to reprint Fritz Leiber's 'Belsen Express', Harry Harrison's 'Mute Inglorious Milton', Shirley Jackson's 'The Lottery', Charles Beaumont's 'The Howling Man', Harlan Ellison's 'Pennies, Off a Dead Man's Eyes' and much, much more.
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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 212.219.233.223
Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2010 - 01:55 pm:   

And the greatest and most troubling anti-fascist story of them all...

'Deutsches Requiem' by Jorge Luis Borges, a story based on the truly disturbing conceit that the Nazis actually won the war because what they stood for (violent force) was the thing that became necessary to destroy them. As the narrator of that story declares at one point, "What does it matter that Germany was the anvil and our enemies the hammer, just so long as there was an anvil and hammer..."
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Karim Ghahwagi (Karim)
Username: Karim

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 193.89.189.24
Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2010 - 02:31 pm:   

Well Johnny and I have taken this off site now... where we will try and kiss and make-up... carry on---
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 06-2008
Posted From: 217.43.30.69
Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2010 - 02:57 pm:   

...such letters pages having mostly comprised backbiting, chest-beating and faction-mongering since fanzines first began...
====================
Yes indeed. I recall those particularly in DAGON and CEREBRETRON in the late nineteen-eighties where at least two people above appeared. :-)
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Johnny_mains (Johnny_mains)
Username: Johnny_mains

Registered: 04-2010
Posted From: 82.22.75.99
Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2010 - 03:14 pm:   

At the behest of a friend, I will no longer talk about NEVER AGAIN and I apologise to Joel from the bottom of my socks if I may have offended him in any way shape or form.
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 217.37.199.45
Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2010 - 04:13 pm:   

This is a joint editorial project, Johnny. I can't accept an apology in which Ally is not included.
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2010 - 04:15 pm:   

Off the top of my head here are a few oldie horror stories I've been impressed by that deal with fascism/nazism:

In The Penal Colony (1914) by Franz Kafka
Our Father Who Art In Heaven (1946) by Valentin Katayev
The Lottery (1948) by Shirley Jackson
The Physiology Of Fear (1954) by C.S. Forester
Thanatos Palace Hotel (1960) by André Maurois
Putz Dies (1964) by Septimus Dale
The Oldest Story Ever Told (1964) by Romain Gary
Just The Very Thing They Wanted (1965) by Dino Buzzati
The Academy (1965) by David Ely
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Mark_samuels (Mark_samuels)
Username: Mark_samuels

Registered: 04-2010
Posted From: 86.133.23.20
Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2010 - 04:28 pm:   

Well, I'm glad to see SKU's claim over on his blog has been proven wrong:

"let’s face it, does anyone care about Samuel’s (sic) self-centred and self-opinionated ramblings? No? Thought not."

Note how he not only answers his own question (!), but is also egomaniacal enough to state he speaks for everyone (!). Hilarious faction-mongering right there.



Mark S.
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Johnny_mains (Johnny_mains)
Username: Johnny_mains

Registered: 04-2010
Posted From: 82.22.75.99
Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2010 - 04:55 pm:   

Heya Joel, I understand and even though it saddens me, I hope you understand that I can't apologise to Ally as the last time I did she threw the apology back at me. Once bitten, twice shy I'm afraid.

I'm done on this subject and shall now leave RCMB and delete my account.

cheers

Jx
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 217.37.199.45
Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2010 - 05:04 pm:   

Nobody's asking you to leave RCMB, Johnny, and there's genuine interest here in your own projects. Just lay off other people, that's all.
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Allybird (Allybird)
Username: Allybird

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 88.104.140.73
Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2010 - 05:04 pm:   

The thing is Johnny, you keep attacking me publicly. If you weren't so hell bent on doing it you wouldn't have to apologise (or not).
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Allybird (Allybird)
Username: Allybird

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 88.104.140.73
Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2010 - 05:05 pm:   

Posted at exactly the same time there, Joel.
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Stu (Stu)
Username: Stu

Registered: 04-2008
Posted From: 82.11.100.163
Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2010 - 05:22 pm:   

>>'Deutsches Requiem' by Jorge Luis Borges, a story based on the truly disturbing conceit that the Nazis actually won the war because what they stood for (violent force) was the thing that became necessary to destroy them.

Not as disturbing as Captain Kirk having to sacrifice Joan Collins in order to prevent history altering to a reality where the Nazis win WWII.
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2010 - 05:34 pm:   

It gets me every time, Stu.
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Kate (Kathleen)
Username: Kathleen

Registered: 09-2009
Posted From: 213.122.209.76
Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2010 - 05:34 pm:   

Too bad that sacrifice couldn't prevent Dynasty.
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Mark_samuels (Mark_samuels)
Username: Mark_samuels

Registered: 04-2010
Posted From: 86.133.23.20
Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2010 - 05:44 pm:   

Funny how SKU never names or criticises Johnny on his blog (and by extension Facebook et al), isn't it?

Could it be that he regards Johnny as someone who might be useful for his career--thus he doesn't want to smear him, as he's smeared me, only for that reason?

Funny that. Not morally consistent, but funny.



Mark S.
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Frank (Frank)
Username: Frank

Registered: 09-2008
Posted From: 85.222.86.72
Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2010 - 05:57 pm:   

When I first got interested in the Small Press, and the genre with regards to writing, publishing, etc, I thought I was joining a community. Yes, I know, people are people, we all have flaws, it's sometimes magnified out of all proportion by the internet, but I still feel 'it' to be rather dishonest, two-faced and largely over-competitive. I used to think, somewhat naively, that horror, being a much maligned genre, would seek to unite its best writers, editors, etc, as outside forces were far from complimentary on what 'we' were doing.

But it seems to be an environment of bickering, petty jealousies, and over-inflated egos. I am again utterly dismayed that none of us can ever see eye to eye.

Isn't it about time that 'we' all just called it a day and got on with the main matter at hand, which is supposed to be our love of the genre and all the wonderful things it can produce.

Aren't there more important, or at least, more enjoyable matters to discuss.

I know I have had several blazing rows with people on this board, so I hold my hands up and say I was as guilty of this, too, but come on, lets give this kind of shit the elbow.

There are too many talented people here: Ally, Mark, Joel, Johnny, etc, to spend our time banging our collective heads against the wall...again.

(I am available for coporate motivational videos and general team building)
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Allybird (Allybird)
Username: Allybird

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 88.104.140.73
Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2010 - 06:01 pm:   

and Johnny...do you really think it appropriate to rail against our efforts to get this anthology noticed?

Would we go over to your PAN anthology thread and do the same to you? No. And it comes back to etiquette once more. What have you done differently in promoting/raising awareness of your anthology that is different to what we are doing?
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Weber (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 194.176.105.55
Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2010 - 06:02 pm:   

Who cares what you think Frank - you think dogs will rule the world after the apocolypse and not cats! Patently ridiculous - a dog could never sneak up on anything, my cat nearly gave me a fucking heart attack last night, the little bastard - so cats would obviously win every time. They have the element of surprise.
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 217.37.199.45
Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2010 - 06:07 pm:   

None the less, Frank hasn't hurt anyone's felines.
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Weber (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 194.176.105.55
Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2010 - 06:08 pm:   

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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 75.4.228.143
Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2010 - 06:09 pm:   

Frank - what about the UN-talented people here, huh?! What about people like ME?! Are you trying to say *I* shouldn't get a fair shake or be treated kindly, just because *I* can't string words two together? --

-- Doh!
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Weber (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 194.176.105.55
Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2010 - 06:13 pm:   

No Craig, the reason you shouldn't get a fair crack of the whip is coz we all hate you.

Nothing to do with your lack of talent or the fact that you know shit all about film - you michael bay tromboner
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Frank (Frank)
Username: Frank

Registered: 09-2008
Posted From: 85.222.86.72
Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2010 - 06:17 pm:   

Weber - I believe my last expertly worded, planned and brilliantly executed debate on dogs versus cats to have left you bereft of further foolishness, but alas I see I will have to take you to task over such insolence.

Craig - you are not untalented, mate. You write screenplays. I actually think that if you were to sit down and actually write 'something' you would be a cross between Bill Hicks and Harlan Ellison.
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Weber (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 194.176.105.55
Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2010 - 06:19 pm:   

So would that be Harlan Hicks or Bill Ellison?
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Stu (Stu)
Username: Stu

Registered: 04-2008
Posted From: 82.11.100.163
Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2010 - 06:24 pm:   

My fave anti-Nazi story might well be Captain America #275 where Cap goes along in his civvies to help his pals protest against a Neo-Nazi rally. Some of the Jewish protesters present get so worked up by the hate-filled rhetoric of the Neo-Nazis and holocaust deniers that the peaceful counter-protest erupts into violence. Cap has to ride in and save the day before any gets seriously hurt and then angrily confronts the two ringleaders. To the Jew: "Can't you see that in stooping to your own enemy's level you're being made over in his image -- that you are becoming the very thing that you loathe?" To the Neo-Nazi: "I wish I could take you back with me to the day we liberated Diebenwald, let you smell the stomach turning stench of death, let you see the mountains of corpses left behind by the corrupt madmen and murderers you idolize." Both men lunge at Cap and rather than fight them he neatly sidesteps so that they plunge off the stage and knock themselves out in the fall, their own hatred and willingness to inflict violence proving their undoing.

I'm well into the classics, me.
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Frank (Frank)
Username: Frank

Registered: 09-2008
Posted From: 85.222.86.72
Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2010 - 06:25 pm:   

You know you love him, Weber. Go on, admit it. It's okay, I still respect you, even if you won't come te morning...ah, more puns headed my way...I presume.
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 75.4.228.143
Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2010 - 06:29 pm:   

Frank - I don't know Bill Hicks - ?

Weber - aren't you way past your wheeled-out-strapped-to-the-handcart-left-in-the-hallway-for-air time? Shouldn't the nice nurse - with the "wonderful grip" (as you've described her) - have taken you back to your wing of the castle by now?... My my, they are getting lax there, aren't they?...
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Frank (Frank)
Username: Frank

Registered: 09-2008
Posted From: 85.222.86.72
Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2010 - 06:33 pm:   

Craig - you don't know Bill Hicks? Now I know you must be joking. PLEASE. TELL. ME. YOU. ARE. JOKING.
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 75.4.228.143
Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2010 - 06:37 pm:   

AHHHH... yes, I'm getting quite addled. I knew the name rang a bell. In fact, a friend loaned me some of the late comic's stand-up, a few of his dvds... oh fuck, which friend was that?... anyway, yes, ha! But no, no, I'm neither of those two, those two are stellar personalities indeed....
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Stu (Stu)
Username: Stu

Registered: 04-2008
Posted From: 86.26.75.167
Posted on Wednesday, June 23, 2010 - 08:06 pm:   

Just read Deutsches Requiem. Not bad. But it can't quite match up to the Star Trek episode or the Captain America comic.
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Skunsworth (Skunsworth)
Username: Skunsworth

Registered: 05-2009
Posted From: 92.16.93.143
Posted on Thursday, June 24, 2010 - 10:29 am:   

Hiya all, been away for 3 days with no internet access - did you miss me :-)

Seeing eye to eye? How boring would that be!

S

PS To placate Mr Samuels: Johnny, you were bang out of order.
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Frank (Frank)
Username: Frank

Registered: 09-2008
Posted From: 85.222.86.72
Posted on Thursday, June 24, 2010 - 10:43 am:   

Okay, not eye to eye, but less arguments based on personality than anything even approaching substantial.
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 217.37.199.45
Posted on Thursday, June 24, 2010 - 11:37 am:   

No arguments at all would be nice. Seriously.
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 217.37.199.45
Posted on Thursday, June 24, 2010 - 11:39 am:   

And what's boring, surely, is for discussion on matters of real interest to be constantly drowned by the vuvuzelas of personal conflict.
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Thursday, June 24, 2010 - 11:45 am:   

Nice one, Joel.
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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 212.219.233.223
Posted on Thursday, June 24, 2010 - 11:54 am:   

A proper discussion about anti-fascist fiction would still be nice. Well, not so much a discussion (I rarely see real discussions or real debates on messageboards; that's not what they are for) but readers giving their recommendations, at least.

Here's mine for the day... A short story by Italo Calvino entitled 'Beheading the Heads' (it can be found in his collection Numbers in the Dark).

It proposes a political system which has an automatic inbuilt anti-dictatorial failsafe mechanism -- the execution of all politicians (including the good ones) every two years and their replacement with fresh volunteers...
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Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 195.166.117.210
Posted on Thursday, June 24, 2010 - 11:56 am:   

A Hazy Shade of Winter by Simon bestwick is a good 'un (although, I know Simon has gone off the story in recent years).
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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 212.219.233.223
Posted on Thursday, June 24, 2010 - 12:01 pm:   

Anything by Yevgeny Zamyatin...

And there's a lesson in Zamyatin's life for any modern western author who feels they are being persecuted, hounded, ostracised or whatever... What any of us have to put up with in that regard is nothing compared with what Zamyatin endured from the Stalinist state.

I'll recommend his novel We, of course, but also a short story collection called The Dragon and Other Tales.
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Allybird (Allybird)
Username: Allybird

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 88.104.140.73
Posted on Thursday, June 24, 2010 - 12:09 pm:   

'A Hazy Shade of Winter by Simon bestwick is a good 'un (although, I know Simon has gone off the story in recent years).'

A great story and one we considered but we went with Malachi in the end.
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Thursday, June 24, 2010 - 12:22 pm:   

I'd love to read 'We' - heard a lot about it.
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Allybird (Allybird)
Username: Allybird

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 88.104.140.73
Posted on Thursday, June 24, 2010 - 12:26 pm:   

'And there's a lesson in Zamyatin's life for any modern western author who feels they are being persecuted, hounded, ostracised or whatever... What any of us have to put up with in that regard is nothing compared with what Zamyatin endured from the Stalinist state.'

And the terrible injuries Sophie Lancaster suffered before she died...for being different.
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Skunsworth (Skunsworth)
Username: Skunsworth

Registered: 05-2009
Posted From: 92.16.93.143
Posted on Thursday, June 24, 2010 - 12:53 pm:   

Well, if we're going to be serious about the subject rather than frivolous...

...my own take on this is that we nail our colours to whatever masts we can in whatever way we can. Do I think Never Again will change the world? No. Do I think it might do a bit of good by raising some money for a good cause, and one that matters to me? Yes. I'd like to think that some or all of the stories included might make even one person think differently, but I'm not naive enough to be confident in that - I suspect most people who read it will be 'on message' beforehand. So why bother? Well, apart from the money for a good cause, mostly because I believe Ally and Joel are doing this for the best of reasons, to raise awareness of and support for a cause that believe in (Which is why Johnny was, I think, entirely and completely out of order, as his comment implies that Ally and Joel have approached this solely from the perspective of publicity and award-winning (and, by further implication, to gain some positive reflections on themselves, their own careers and to generate some kind of emotional or intellectual rewards simply by being associated with a 'right-on' thing), which I and anyone else who's met or communicated with both of them knows is a bullshit theory. Joel is the only man I've ever known who's seriously discussed the position of porn industry body doubles (no pun intended) in relation to fair employment practice and equalities! Now you tell me he's only doing this for personal gain...). Will being involved help my career? It's possible, I suppose, but I know that's not why I'm involved (believe that or don't as you want) or why I spent the time to write a story that I'm proud of and that I hope people like. In the end, this is as much about making personal statements as it is collective ones, and mine is this: This antho is gonna be ace! Nice one Ally. Nice one Joel.

S
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Allybird (Allybird)
Username: Allybird

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 88.104.140.73
Posted on Thursday, June 24, 2010 - 01:12 pm:   

'Joel is the only man I've ever known who's seriously discussed the position of porn industry body doubles (no pun intended) in relation to fair employment practice and equalities!'

Joel and I have always spoken out against injustice and always will do. When I saw the terrible things going on in europe I went on the demos in the 1990's in Paris and Brussels. This book is a continuation of that but in fiction instead. I've openly discussed sex slavery, oppression of women and about many other terrible things that happen in the world such as the flogging of women in the Sudan. I've always been outspoken about what goes on in the world and I'm not going to stop because of some petty accusations.
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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 212.219.233.223
Posted on Thursday, June 24, 2010 - 01:42 pm:   

One of my motivations for wanting to contribute to this anthology was the show that opposition to fascism doesn't necessarily have to come from the 'left'. I think this is an important point to make.
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Allybird (Allybird)
Username: Allybird

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 88.104.140.73
Posted on Thursday, June 24, 2010 - 01:48 pm:   

Very good point.
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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 212.219.233.223
Posted on Thursday, June 24, 2010 - 01:51 pm:   

...which doesn't mean that I'm from the 'right', by the way. There are political positions at a tangent to the simple left-right scale...

Having said that, I do appreciate the massive contribution made by the 'left' against fascism and I accept that the majority of opposition has actually come from this direction. Just not all of it, is what I'm saying...

One of my favourite anti-Nazi writers is Ernst Junger. He openly criticised Hitler and the Nazi Party in novels such as On the Marble Cliffs, a remarkably brave gesture considering that he was living in Germany at the time. But he criticised the Nazis from a right-wing militaristic standpoint, odd as that may sound -- he wasn't against war, force, the strength of will, elitism, etc, but he was against dishonour, cruelty and irrationality.

Oddities like that interest me a lot...
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 217.37.199.45
Posted on Thursday, June 24, 2010 - 01:54 pm:   

I don't remember any discussion about porn industry body doubles. Are you sure we weren't talking about body doubles for erotic scenes in mainstream films? That would seem far more likely, and it comes under the general heading of the treatment of stunt doubles in the film industry.

I spend more time, these days, on political activism than I do on horror fandom. Neither is a 'career'. If I have anything resembling a writing career it's news to my bank manager, and believe me if that was the focus I'd be writing novels and trying to sell them commercially, not getting involved in a small press anthology. I've been involved in the weird fiction small press for thirty years – there has never been any money in it, and if it's a bridge to professional success then you have to cross that bridge on your own bloody [pun intended] feet.

For me, this project is about bringing together two things that strongly interest me: weird fiction and political activism. And as I've already said, my main perspective is as a fan, wanting to celebrate and explore a strand of writing I have cared about for a long time. This is a literary project, not a political project and certainly not a business project.

The world of political activism is also fraught with personal agendas and factions, feuds and egos – but it's also one of hard work, solidarity, commitment and measurable achievement. Let's keep those goals in mind.

To be sure, posting views on an internet forum or putting them in a book is not enough. But that doesn't make it a bad thing to do. Life is full of things that aren't enough by themselves, but there's lots more life to work in towards the bigger picture. This anthology is meant as a spur both to politicised writing and to activism. We certainly don't expect it to convert any fascists – our only concern on that score was that it shouldn't be a morally disengaged catalogue of atrocities that might give some racist a hard-on. We're wholly confident that it won't be that.

Rhys, I appreciate your postings here on anti-fascist and anti-authoritarian literature. This is what we should be talking about. And as you say, there are many people out there for whom writing is anything but 'armchair activism'.

The end never justifies the means – that's true of political campaigning, and it's true of all social and cultural activity.
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 217.37.199.45
Posted on Thursday, June 24, 2010 - 01:57 pm:   

Rhys – yes, you don't have to be a Marxist to oppose fascism. You just have to be a Marxist to understand where it comes from, why it exists and how to counter it effectively.
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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 212.219.233.223
Posted on Thursday, June 24, 2010 - 02:06 pm:   

Well Joel, I could remind you that the Confederación Nacional del Trabajo and the other Spanish anarchists were doing a fine job in 'countering' Franco (not really a Fascist, but close enough) until the communists stabbed them in the back...
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Skunsworth (Skunsworth)
Username: Skunsworth

Registered: 05-2009
Posted From: 92.16.93.143
Posted on Thursday, June 24, 2010 - 02:10 pm:   

Nope, I'm sure I remember something about the working conditions of porn star employees! (And, incidentally, if you took what I said as in any way critical, please don't - I whole heartedly agree with your stance, if not necessarily the political perspective you approach it from! :-) ).
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Allybird (Allybird)
Username: Allybird

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 88.104.140.73
Posted on Thursday, June 24, 2010 - 02:12 pm:   

Now. This is an interesting discussion.
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Allybird (Allybird)
Username: Allybird

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 88.104.140.73
Posted on Thursday, June 24, 2010 - 02:14 pm:   

My post was meant to go just after Rhys...but.
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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 212.219.233.223
Posted on Thursday, June 24, 2010 - 02:17 pm:   

Every commune I have ever lived on (and I lived on several when I was younger), whatever its particular "political" slant (syndicalist, collectivist, geoist, etc, etc) would always eventually be infiltrated by "Marxists" who wanted to take over, abolish the joint decision making process and effectively turn the commune into an elite-run business project. The Marxists were always the worst. Sorry, Joel, but that's true. Even the right-wing Objectivists were more easy going than the Marxists...
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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 212.219.233.223
Posted on Thursday, June 24, 2010 - 02:20 pm:   

Not that this has anything to do with literature, of course... So:

I'm a huge fan of Vladimir Nabokov's Bend Sinister, which is about the fatal attraction of apathy during a period of budding totalitarianism. Only the second Nabokov novel I ever read but it has stuck in my mind more than most of the others.
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Allybird (Allybird)
Username: Allybird

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 88.104.140.73
Posted on Thursday, June 24, 2010 - 02:25 pm:   

Apathy and silence bother me...silence is a great friend to oppression.
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Skunsworth (Skunsworth)
Username: Skunsworth

Registered: 05-2009
Posted From: 92.16.93.143
Posted on Thursday, June 24, 2010 - 02:28 pm:   

Spiro Agnew's silent majority! Bastards that they are!

S
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 217.37.199.45
Posted on Thursday, June 24, 2010 - 02:46 pm:   

Rhys, by 'Marxist' I don't mean 'Stalinist'. Rule by a bureaucratic elite has nothing to do with socialism.
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 217.37.199.45
Posted on Thursday, June 24, 2010 - 02:49 pm:   

Simon, I refer you to my recent pamphlet 'Stand up and be counted: union rights for fluffers' (Jeff Stryker On Strike Press, 2009).
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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 212.219.233.223
Posted on Thursday, June 24, 2010 - 02:54 pm:   

In that case Marx himself was a Stalinist, if we bear in mind the way he acted during the days of the Paris Commune and the shameful way he treated Kropotkin and Bakunin. Marx was a proponent of the "dictatorship of the proletariat". To quote from Bakunin:

"The Marxists maintain that only a dictatorship —their dictatorship, of course — can create the will of the people, while our answer to this is: No dictatorship can have any other aim but that of self-perpetuation, and it can beget only slavery in the people tolerating it; freedom can be created only by freedom, that is, by a universal rebellion on the part of the people and free organization of the toiling masses from the bottom up.”
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Huw (Huw)
Username: Huw

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 61.216.47.192
Posted on Thursday, June 24, 2010 - 03:19 pm:   

I think this is a commendable idea, but for me the title Never Again doesn't feel like an ideal fit for the theme of the book. If it was about the Holocaust or the nuclear bombing in World War II it would seem more appropriate, but racism and fascism aren't a phenomenon that happened at a fixed period in the past and then stopped, always to be regretted (as the title implies). They are very much alive, with examples to be found in many countries today, on practically every continent. Just a minor quibble, really. Good luck with the book, guys.
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Stu (Stu)
Username: Stu

Registered: 04-2008
Posted From: 82.11.91.133
Posted on Thursday, June 24, 2010 - 03:29 pm:   

There's probably some spoilers in the following if anyone's planning to read the stories mentioned:

I've always been kind of interested in the stories where the people doing the "right" thing are just as misguided as the oppressors that they're trying to stop. An obvious example is the Captain America story I cited above although in that instance the following issue modified things a little, making it clear that the Jewish protester had acted out of a momentary loss of control whereas the Neo-Nazi was an evil dickhead.

As a teenager I used to read the X-Men comics during the period where Magneto (the Malcolm X to Professor X's Martin Luther King) had renounced his attempts to overthrow humanity and had become a teacher at Professor X's school in order to help mutantkind. That development of the character was fascinating to me -- the abandoning of hatred and violence to be replaced by tolerance and a desire to educate. It was also during this period that a trio of WWII veterans with mutant powers were introduced, hunting down criminals who had escaped prosecution but giving them a head-start during the manhunts in order to make the executions "honourable".

V For Vendetta is a strong cry for tolerance and understanding and the end of fascism. But V, the "hero" of the piece, is himself a murderer and a terrorist. It's Evey, the damsel in distress who gradually grows in strength over the course of the story, who is the moral centre of the tale.

Similarly, King Mob from The Invisibles might look cool as he unleashes his John Woo gunplay and his chaos magic on extra-dimensional fascists but as his ex-girlfriend points out: "You're running around shooting people like they're nothing. You're fucked up, Gideon. You're not cool, you're not a hero; you're just a murderer." This is emphasised in the one-off issue 'Best Man Fall' which details the life story of a soldier who King Mob killed in a previous issue. Now, instead of cheering at the manner in which King Mob offed a nameless henchman, the reader is forced to confront the fact that the soldier was a human being with hopes and dreams and flaws and weaknesses.

Then there's Garth Ennis's take on The Punisher where a vigilante ostensibly out to avenge his murdered family is actually a war junkie who misses being able to slaughter enemy troops and secretly relishes fighting an endless war on crime. A recurring nightmare haunts him; in it he finally manages to wipe out all crime and so turns his guns on innocent bystanders just so that he can continue fighting a war. All this tied into commentary on the industrial-military complex's need for oil and an illegal drug trade and wars in which to sell their weapons.
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Thursday, June 24, 2010 - 03:47 pm:   

'Tolerance' might have been a more fitting title but then D.W. Griffith got there first...

The urge to fascism, racism, irrational hatred of "the other", bullying, elitism & snobbery are all irradicable elements of the human condition. The best we can hope for is to control them and channel such negative energy into other, less harmful pursuits (sport, for example). On a primal level I would point to William Golding's first two novels as demonstrating, in graphic detail, how an unchecked alpha male drive (Hitler, Stalin, etc.) and NOT political ideology (merely the outward expression of these drives) is always responsible for unleashing the destructive force of humanity. It will continue to happen
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Thursday, June 24, 2010 - 03:51 pm:   

And Golding had the honesty to admit that had he grown up in Nazi Germany he would undoubtedly have been a Nazi...
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Stu (Stu)
Username: Stu

Registered: 04-2008
Posted From: 82.11.91.133
Posted on Thursday, June 24, 2010 - 04:05 pm:   

That's what worries me about if I'd been raised in Nazi Germany. It's like that Kim Newman story, Ubermensch, where Superman arrives on Earth in Nazi Germany instead of Smallville. Not that I'm comparing myself to Superman of course.

But every now and again at work they wheel out that video of the experiment the schoolteacher did with splitting the kids into two groups, the blue eyes and the brown eyes, telling them that blue eyes are superior. And the kids fall for it. They start bullying the brown eyes and get into fights with them, even when they had previously been friends. Then the next day she reverses it and says the brown eyes are actually superior. And the bullying starts again, this time from the other group. Out of all the kids only one of them stands aside and says he thinks it is wrong. Scary.

Yet there's always at least one person who will sit there after watching the video and state with utmost certainty that they would never act that way. Even when told that a more subtle version of the experiment has been preformed on adults with similar results they're still convinced that they would never do anything like that. I hope they're right. And I hope that I'd be standing alongside them. But the odds are against us.
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Thursday, June 24, 2010 - 04:49 pm:   

We are programmed to want to belong to the group, to fit in. It's one of the basic survival instincts. Couple that with certain individuals natural urge to come first, to lead, to ruthlessly impose their will on those around them and the seeds of fascism are always there within the human race.

Equally there are certain rare individuals who have a natural urge to help others, to sacrifice their own welfare for the betterment of the group but they rarely (except in perfect historical and political conditions) become leaders, except of radical groups of like-minded individuals and even then by consensus.

We need to foster a zero tolerance attitude to the selfish, power-hungry, ruthlessly ambitious drive in human nature (whether it be in politics, business or the arts) before we have any chance of seeing an end to racism or fascism. Personally, I'd start by banning shows like 'Young Apprentice' for the perfidious message they put across.
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 06-2008
Posted From: 81.153.251.53
Posted on Thursday, June 24, 2010 - 06:25 pm:   

Serendipitously, I wrote some days ago the following words (inter alia) about Joel's 'Last Witness' story in WHERE THE HEART IS anthology:

... crystallising its own bitter succinctness by this writer's unique alchemy of negative pain / grotesqueness and positive commitment. Through Lane, we ever learn to transcend nightmares of existence by sharing his dark visions and breathing in his oxymorons. The best medicine seems toxic.
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 217.37.199.45
Posted on Thursday, June 24, 2010 - 06:47 pm:   

Huw, you certainly have a point, but the slogan 'Never Again' is already burdened with many ironies. The problem is in the world, not the words.

I cherish the comment of a friend: "Is it a book of drinking stories?"
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Hubert (Hubert)
Username: Hubert

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 78.22.234.38
Posted on Thursday, June 24, 2010 - 07:03 pm:   

And Golding had the honesty to admit that had he grown up in Nazi Germany he would undoubtedly have been a Nazi...

I would go so far as to say that I've long suspected that we all have 'it' to some degree. The 'common' people who followed Hitler weren't evil. They were tired of seeing corpses piling up in the streets, tiring of paying billions of Marks for a loaf of bread. Tired of being treated like vermin because of the dictates of the Versaillers Treaty. As for Marxism, it is good theory, but for some reason it doesn't appear to work, does it?
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Hubert (Hubert)
Username: Hubert

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 78.22.234.38
Posted on Thursday, June 24, 2010 - 07:06 pm:   

. . . tirED of paying . . .

And don't worry, I am not a fascist or neonazi or whatever.
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 217.37.199.45
Posted on Thursday, June 24, 2010 - 07:14 pm:   

Hubert – the Great Depression proved that capitalism doesn't work, and the current economic meltdown has proved it once again. Because Marxism doesn't deliver the answers the ruling class want to hear, we're told it 'doesn't work'. What does work? This? I think not.
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Mark_samuels (Mark_samuels)
Username: Mark_samuels

Registered: 04-2010
Posted From: 86.133.23.20
Posted on Thursday, June 24, 2010 - 07:26 pm:   

I think British Trotskyism has a few skeletons in its cupboard too: Gerry Healy for one.

Mark S.
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Hubert (Hubert)
Username: Hubert

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 78.22.234.38
Posted on Thursday, June 24, 2010 - 07:30 pm:   

"How inhuman any extremity - hunger, fatigue, pain, desire - makes us poor humans" (Walter de la Mare). You're right of course, and I for one sincerely hope it won't happen again, but unfortunately I can see it happening again.
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 75.5.12.109
Posted on Thursday, June 24, 2010 - 07:53 pm:   

the Great Depression proved that capitalism doesn't work, etc.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc? I think people are eminently corruptible, if not downright contemptible, given circumstances. It's not guns that kill people, as they say.... There's no system of governance that a clever and conniving man can't turn into an effective tyranny.
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 91.110.131.137
Posted on Friday, June 25, 2010 - 01:30 am:   

Hubert, your wider point is of course correct: any culture can turn vicious under sufficient pressure. And I'm rather tired of the continuing demonisation of Germans given the positive example they have set over the past sixty years.

To quote the very wonderful recent film Greenberg, hurt people hurt people.
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Kate (Kathleen)
Username: Kathleen

Registered: 09-2009
Posted From: 213.122.209.76
Posted on Friday, June 25, 2010 - 07:33 am:   

I would go so far as to say that I've long suspected that we all have 'it' to some degree.

We do. As exhibited by studies like the Milgram Experiment and Stanford Prison Experiment.
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 06-2008
Posted From: 81.153.251.53
Posted on Friday, June 25, 2010 - 09:24 am:   

There's no system of governance that a clever and conniving man can't turn into an effective tyranny.
=====================

Indeed.

And there is none so passionate as a passionate believer in something, especially religion or politics.
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Hubert (Hubert)
Username: Hubert

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 78.22.234.38
Posted on Friday, June 25, 2010 - 11:03 am:   

And because they are convinced that their creed or conviction furthers the cause of humanity, they feel they have the right and moral duty to convince others. They have my sympathy, for at least they are sincere. Of course, one can be thoroughly convinced of something and at the same time be thoroughly wrong.
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 06-2008
Posted From: 81.153.251.53
Posted on Friday, June 25, 2010 - 11:59 am:   

Of course, one can be thoroughly convinced of something and at the same time be thoroughly wrong.
================

And one can be thoroughly convinced of something and at the same time be thoroughly right.

or

One can be thoroughly disparaging of something and at the same time be thoroughly wrong to be thus disparaging.

My problem is - although I am a kind misanthropist - I can see the virtue of cruel philanthropy. I'm ever in two minds, other than my constant love for everyone that I cannot properly express (even to myself).
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Stu (Stu)
Username: Stu

Registered: 04-2008
Posted From: 81.100.126.235
Posted on Friday, June 25, 2010 - 12:06 pm:   

This is why I'm drawn to stories where the protagonist is in the "right" (either judging by their own morals or by those of society in general) but are also dangerous obsessives. Does the good they do outweigh the bad? Or have they tainted themselves and their ideals beyond redemption? If so is it their high-minded ideals that led them beyond redemption?
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Friday, June 25, 2010 - 12:07 pm:   

I'm convinced it all goes back to biology and instinctive survival drives. There is a kind of pack mentality hotwired into the human psyche. We are driven to congregate in groups by the desire to "belong" and procreate. There is safety in numbers which makes this a useful trait in evolutionary terms.

When individuals form a group there will always be one alpha male character who will be driven to want to top the group and use it to spread his genes further than the rest - first choice of the ladies, first to get fed, best able to protect his offspring - again, all powerful survival traits for the individual and his bloodline. This isn't even a conscious decision, it's a primal urge. But when the group comes into contact with another group then competition for resources sets in and a power struggle will always develop with the leader of each group put under pressure to display his dominance in the face of this threat from outside - the "other".

William Golding portrays this process at work, at its primal core, in a group of children, 'Lord Of The Flies', and a wandering tribe of Cro-Magnon hunter-gatherers, 'The Inheritors', when faced with a "socialist" and matriarchal family group of Neanderthals (species-ism was there long before racism), but the same process goes on in the modern adult world all around us every day resulting in groups adopting racist and fascist and bigoted attitudes to bolster their sense of belonging - with the alpha male figureheads of paranoid, self-loathing psychopaths such as Hitler, Stalin, etc resulting in the most extreme displays of destructive competition.

We can never get rid of this drive - it's a part of our DNA - but we can hope to put tighter and tighter controls in place by putting morality, common decency and a sense of shared humanity at the very heart of our values as a global society and our education systems - and that means in our homes, on our streets and in our schools from the youngest infants are first able to understand and articulate the difference between right and wrong.
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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 212.219.233.223
Posted on Friday, June 25, 2010 - 12:25 pm:   

I agree with most of that, Stephen. Morality isn't about not having 'evil' (i.e. fascistic) urges -- morality is about having those urges, very strongly in some cases, but choosing to overrule them with reason. A difficult process that casuses angst. Without angst any moral decision isn't really moral.

The struggle is internal first, external later. For me it means overcoming my own hotheadedness and impetuosity, a difficult task, especially under the pressure of provocation. People who are naturally calm don't fully appreciate the difficulties involved, I'm afraid.

Now then, here's a real poser... Does anyone have any liking for a writer or book they shouldn't -- I mean an admiration despite their better judgment for a particular no-no? For instance I must confess that I thoroughly enjoyed Ayn Rand's The Fountainhead, simply for its spirit of freedom, even though everyone else says it's craply written (and I believe them) and politically simple minded... That's my shameful secret, or one of them at any rate...
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 06-2008
Posted From: 81.153.251.53
Posted on Friday, June 25, 2010 - 12:32 pm:   

I listen to Wagner's music.
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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 212.219.233.223
Posted on Friday, June 25, 2010 - 12:34 pm:   

Ah yes, that's a crime I've indulged in a few times... I have an even more shameful secret than the Ayn Rand but I don't want to reveal it yet...

I played a Rand. Des raised me a Wagner. Anyone else in the game?
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 82.26.154.208
Posted on Friday, June 25, 2010 - 12:43 pm:   

I'm a great fan of Heidegger and he was a Nazi!
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Friday, June 25, 2010 - 12:43 pm:   

I thoroughly enjoyed Heinlein's 'Starship Troopers' even though it has long been taken as a fascist textbook - mistakenly and unfairly imo. Heinlein was genuinely striving to think up a new form of robust but fair political governance that took into account the practical realities of competition and dog-eat-dog survival while giving each and every individual equality through the freedom to choose their place in society. The worst he could be accused of is political naivete imo... but sometimes I even wonder about that.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 82.26.154.208
Posted on Friday, June 25, 2010 - 12:44 pm:   

I mentioned Super-Cannes on another thread, but that novel is relevant to this discussion. Chilling.
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Stu (Stu)
Username: Stu

Registered: 04-2008
Posted From: 81.100.126.235
Posted on Friday, June 25, 2010 - 12:46 pm:   

More stories that I've enjoyed that deal with racism/fascism:

GREEN LANTERN: MOSAIC. When one of the Guardians of the Universe goes mad and assembles a patchwork world out of all the different planets he has visited the Guardians' interplanetary police force, the Green Lantern Corps, think that once the renegade Guardian is defeated everything will go back to normal. But the Guardians decide the patchwork world with all its different inhabitants will make a fascinating social experiment and charge John Stewart, the Green Lantern of Earth, to oversee the project. Stewart has serious misgivings about the idea but cannot leave the different races to fend for themselves on this strange new world. Consequently he battles intergalactic racism, his growing distrust of the Guardians, memories of racism he himself suffered on Earth (he's black) as well as his deteriorating mental health as he agonises over past mistakes he made as a Green Lantern that led to millions of people dying.

WAR STORY: CONDORS. The Spanish Civil War. A downed German pilot, a Brit fighting for the Repblicans, an Irishman fighting for the Fascists and a Spaniard all end up sheltering in the same foxhole during a battle. They each relate how they came to be there, detailing their personal beliefs and ideologies. This leads to the Spaniard telling them that he hates them all, including the Brit for his socialist idealism -- "You are here to apply your won ideas, your own agenda. And it is a stupid agenda, really. Because notions of equality and fairness are the first to fall by the wayside when people have their backs to the wall."

And then there's X-MEN. I loved this as a teenager. Mutants served as a one-size-fits-all metaphor for any group that has ever been victimised. And the X-Men were the most hated of all the mutants despite being the most noble, constantly saving a world that despised them. The comics were full of inspiring, punch the air moments of heroism. And not just flashy superheroics; one of my favourite moments comes when a group of X-Men out in their civvies stop a mob from killing an injured mutant not by blasting them with their superpowers but by making them acknowledge the shamefulness of their actions. One of the things that pissed me of about the X-MEN films was the tagline on the poster saying 'Trust a Few. Fear the Rest'. The whole point of the X-Men is about building tolerance, not suggesting that prejudice is okay so long as you make the odd exception for the "outsiders" you get along with.
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Stu (Stu)
Username: Stu

Registered: 04-2008
Posted From: 81.100.126.235
Posted on Friday, June 25, 2010 - 12:50 pm:   

Dialogue from X-Men #231:

"I'm evil! I'm only good because I want to be!"
"Isn't that the point?"
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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 212.219.233.223
Posted on Friday, June 25, 2010 - 12:52 pm:   

> I'm a great fan of Heidegger and he was a Nazi!

Fucking hell, Gary. That's my big shameful secret, the one I was keeping for later. Heidegger was a genius -- but he was a Nazi.

I'm busted. Will throw my hand in...

All together now:
Heidegger, low-degger, degger degger ho!
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 82.26.154.208
Posted on Friday, June 25, 2010 - 12:58 pm:   

Heidegger once came into my pub and asked rather philosophically, "What is it to be?"

At which point, 46 football fans, myself included, shouted, "Pint of lager, please!"
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Friday, June 25, 2010 - 01:05 pm:   

Mutants served as a one-size-fits-all metaphor for any group that has ever been victimised.

Which again brings me back to Robert Heinlein who used "mutant immortality" in 'Methuselah's Children' to highlight, to his fellow Americans, the plight of the chosen people in 1941. From scourge of the Nazis to the new Goebbels in a few short years, what a guy!

I believe (but have yet to read it) that Kurt Vonnegut dealt explicitly with fascism, as inherent in all of us, in 'Mother Night' (1961). Over to you, Craig...
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Hubert (Hubert)
Username: Hubert

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 78.22.234.38
Posted on Friday, June 25, 2010 - 01:08 pm:   

I've translated Ewers who by all acounts was a nazi of the first blood - at least until some party bigshots got wind of his decadent lifestyle - and who is supposed to have written the NSDAP party hymn, the Horst Wessel song. Conversely he also wrote a little-known essay entitled "Why I am a Philosemite". Go figure.
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 217.37.199.45
Posted on Friday, June 25, 2010 - 01:23 pm:   

Heidegger's Nazi sympathies, or actions as a Nazi apologist, have been long debated. There's no doubt that his work is important – it was recognised by such major social theorists as Sartre and Habermas as fundamental to the development of existentialism.

My guilty 'shouldn't-like but do' – Lovecraft I suppose. Though it's not his xenophobia I read him for. There's a childlike side to Lovecraft: he's as scared of personal betrayal, familial abuse and the threat of madness as he is of immigration. There's more to Lovecraft than racism, but the racism is often there, it's the shoggoth in the room.
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Mark_samuels (Mark_samuels)
Username: Mark_samuels

Registered: 04-2010
Posted From: 86.133.23.20
Posted on Friday, June 25, 2010 - 01:28 pm:   

Roy Campbell.

Mark S.
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 06-2008
Posted From: 81.153.251.53
Posted on Friday, June 25, 2010 - 01:37 pm:   

Lovecrafts' racism was not the ordinary racism of his days. Has anyone read his letters to Reinhardt Kleiner? Toxic stuff even beyond your wildest imaginings.

But I read HPL fiction, too.

It all comes down to nemonymity for me. :-)
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Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey)
Username: Ramsey

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 195.93.21.74
Posted on Friday, June 25, 2010 - 01:41 pm:   

Leni Reifenstahl for me, though Robert Aickman would say I'm being unfair by even citing her in this context.
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Chris_morris (Chris_morris)
Username: Chris_morris

Registered: 04-2008
Posted From: 12.165.240.116
Posted on Friday, June 25, 2010 - 05:38 pm:   

Knut Hamsun.

What was Aickman's defense of Riefenstahl, Ramsey?
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 82.17.252.126
Posted on Friday, June 25, 2010 - 08:45 pm:   

I read a great ghost story by Knut Hamsun recently... 'An Apparition'.

Hadn't he gone senile when he became a Nazi sympathiser? His earlier works are anything but fascistic.
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Stu (Stu)
Username: Stu

Registered: 04-2008
Posted From: 82.11.80.181
Posted on Tuesday, June 29, 2010 - 03:04 pm:   

Can't believe that I forgot to mention Garth Ennis's take on Dan Dare. There's a wonderfully poignant scene where Professor Peabody recounts Dare's dignified refusal when asked to become a figurehead for the National Front and the pain the offer causes him -- "They'd taint the very notion of being British. They'd wrap themselves in the flag, and an entire generation of immigrant people would look at the Union Jack and see a swastika."
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Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey)
Username: Ramsey

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 195.93.21.74
Posted on Tuesday, June 29, 2010 - 03:57 pm:   

"What was Aickman's defense of Riefenstahl, Ramsey?"

Sorry - I missed that! I see from his autobiography that he felt it was inevitable that she should be accused of "undue solidarity" with the Nazis, but that she was completely exonerated. He regarded her as an idealist and compared her to Junta in her film.
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.155.206.185
Posted on Tuesday, June 29, 2010 - 10:10 pm:   

RE Lovecraft; he lived among the troubled blacks and might have seen their worst side, their anger at the whites, their despair. It would have been difficult for a hypersensitive (my judgement there) to go easy. I feel given different time and circumstances his views might have been different.
I for instance hate the local gypsies based on my run-ins with them, their pinching our stuff and their appalling treatment of animals. I use the word 'gyppoes' in a way that might shock some. I try to be ok on a one-to-one basis but can't stand them really.
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.155.206.185
Posted on Tuesday, June 29, 2010 - 10:13 pm:   

My son Bill hates Avatar for the reason the aliens are goody-goodies, us the bad guys. He hated that simplicity.
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 91.110.214.191
Posted on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 - 12:44 am:   

Tony, Lovecraft did not live among black people in New England – and when he went to New York he was already a confirmed racist – and he was steeped in the worst kind of racist and fascist literature, the kind that used delusional theories to justify lynching, brutal oppression and even genocide. On the plus side it can only be said that he never harmed anyone, the worst he did was publish racist articles.
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 82.17.252.126
Posted on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 - 01:13 am:   

Lovecraft was a product of his upbringing in more ignorant times. His racist attitudes don't diminish the power of his fiction one iota. Actually I find his works generally compassionate and with a strong moral core so I find it hard to believe he was a genuinely bad man - just terribly misguided.
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Mark_samuels (Mark_samuels)
Username: Mark_samuels

Registered: 04-2010
Posted From: 86.133.23.20
Posted on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 - 01:32 am:   

Tony

That's your view.

I was bounced out of the "anti-prejudice" anthology for a lot less. Simply for speaking my mind, otherwise described as "etiquette".

Mark S.
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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 212.219.233.223
Posted on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 - 10:37 am:   

Grow up, please, Mark.
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 217.37.199.45
Posted on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 - 10:53 am:   

Mark, you were not included because you had personally insulted one of the editors. It's that simple. Get a grip and stop talking nonsense about it.
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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 212.219.233.223
Posted on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 - 10:58 am:   

Things are going well for Mark's writing at the moment, so I just don't get why he's making such a fuss over one anthology???

Heaven forbid if I start complaining about every anthology or writing project I don't get invited to! You'll never hear the end of it...

Now that is an idea... Let's see how much sympathy I generate for all the snubs I get, shall we? Not much, I bet!
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Frank (Frank)
Username: Frank

Registered: 09-2008
Posted From: 85.222.86.72
Posted on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 - 12:28 pm:   

I bet I can beat you hands down on that one, Rhys. Even hands up, bound, or broken off at the wrists

Yes, I know, my humour is staggering in its complexity.
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Hubert (Hubert)
Username: Hubert

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 78.22.234.38
Posted on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 - 03:14 pm:   

On the plus side it can only be said that he never harmed anyone, the worst he did was publish racist articles.

These were published long before he came out his New England cocoon and were primarily aired in amateur journals not meant to be read by the public at large. Later in life he emphatically states that he can't quite believe how naive and prejuduced he'd been as a young man. I'll try to find the letter in question, I dare say I must have seen it in Selected Letters V.
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Tom_alaerts (Tom_alaerts)
Username: Tom_alaerts

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 194.78.35.185
Posted on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 - 03:51 pm:   

Hey, I'm not invited for ANY anthology !
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 06-2008
Posted From: 81.153.251.53
Posted on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 - 03:59 pm:   

I believe HPL's most rabidly racist letters (quite beyond even the rabid racism of his times) were to Rheinhart Kleiner and are not in the normal volumes of his Letters.
I may be wrong.
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 217.37.199.45
Posted on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 - 04:15 pm:   

Hubert, Volume 5 would be the volume from the 1930s in which HPL also talks about how much he admires Mein Kampf.
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 - 04:43 pm:   

Once again, does this make him a bad man - actively doing harm to other individuals - or a misguided product of his times merely spouting prejudice as a way of expressing some of the frustration of his monstrously closeted life?

I actually think Lovecraft's blinkered isolation and manic fear of the "other" is what makes his horror tales so powerfully claustrophobic and convincing - in the same way Robert Heinlein's idealistic libertarianism made him so wilfully and wonderfully contrary. Both were great writers and basically good men imho.

If Lovecraft did express admiration for 'Mein Kampf' (a book I too have read and been horribly fascinated by) does this not also make him merely a bad judge rather than a rabid Nazi - like the vast majority of the German population during that awful time of contagious madness.
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Hubert (Hubert)
Username: Hubert

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 78.22.234.38
Posted on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 - 04:54 pm:   

Well, I checked the Index to the Selected Letters of H.P. Lovecraft and found no mention of Mein Kampf. There are quite a few entries on nazism and Hitler, however; most of these refer to epistorlary utterances in SL IV. I've just skimmed through the longer ones and it seems to me that Lovecraft was in two minds about der Schöne Adolf. There is the acutely embarrassing " . . . I know he is a clown, but by God, I like the boy!" But also: " . . . in saying he is sincere, & that there is a certain basis behind some phases of the attitudes he represents, I do not mean to imply that his actual programme is not extreme, grotesque, & occasionally barbarous. His attempts to banish arbitrarily all literature he does not like is of course essentially uncivilised - while his ethnological theories (as distinguished from any defence of a purely Aryan culture) are contrary to the maturest beliefs of science." (SL IV, p. 235)
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 217.37.199.45
Posted on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 - 05:08 pm:   

The first of those is what I had in mind. Thanks, Hubert.

Lovecraft was more a racist than a fascist. His racism was durable, however. He married a Jewish woman but told her that he did not want to meet her relatives unless there was "a majority of Aryans in the room".

And his utterly vile ghostwritten racist horror story 'Medusa's Coil' (payoff: not only was she a vampire revenant, she was a light-skinned negress!!!) was written after his stay in New York, not before.

However, Lovecraft's body of work is not primarily dedicated to exploring racist ideas. They're just kind of in there.
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Hubert (Hubert)
Username: Hubert

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 78.22.234.38
Posted on Wednesday, June 30, 2010 - 05:25 pm:   

However, Lovecraft's body of work is not primarily dedicated to exploring racist ideas. They're just kind of in there.

Maurice Lévy, on the other hand, argues that " . . . Lovecraft made literary use of his likes and dislikes in exemplary fashion. Incapable of putting into practice the redoubtable principles set forth in his correspondence, he used them in good stead in his stories. . . [But]The mysterious cross-currents presiding over his creative impulse were active on the most profound psychological level only. . ." ("Fascism and the Fantastic: the Case Lovecraft")
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 06-2008
Posted From: 81.153.251.53
Posted on Saturday, July 03, 2010 - 11:02 pm:   

Good luck with this book. But, I'd like to record here that, like Mark, I am very disappointed that I was not originally invited to prepare a story at least for consideration.
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Mark_samuels (Mark_samuels)
Username: Mark_samuels

Registered: 04-2010
Posted From: 86.133.23.20
Posted on Sunday, July 04, 2010 - 12:21 am:   

Des

For the record I no longer care whether I am in this anthology or not. Its conditions of entry are, at least in my instance, based on a criterion not wholly literary or political.

The following is from a C.S. Lewis essay "The Inner Ring" (oooer missus! But it's not rude), and seems apposite to me:

"I have no right to make assumptions about the degree to which any of you may already be compromised. I must not assume that you have ever first neglected, and finally shaken off, friends whom you really loved and who might have lasted you a lifetime, in order to court the friendship of those who appeared to you more important, more esoteric. I must not ask whether you have derived actual pleasure from the loneliness and humiliation of the outsiders after you, yourself were in: whether you have talked to fellow members of the Ring in the presence of outsiders simply in order that the outsiders might envy; whether the means whereby, in your days of probation, you propitiated the Inner Ring, were always wholly admirable."

The whole thing's here, if you're interested:

http://www.lewissociety.org/innerring.php

Mark S.
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 75.4.243.41
Posted on Sunday, July 04, 2010 - 05:00 am:   

I'm a total outsider (in oh so many ways), and know all of you in mere sketches from this board alone... but from what little I'm aware of, I do admit... it does seem now, in retrospect, a tad, uh - uncouth? - that this still-being-prepared project would be so trumpeted, in a big crowded virtual room, that clearly contained some people that would clearly feel sad and hurt, for their being neglected. I don't think it was gloating, by any means; but now looking back over the wreckage of this thread, it seems to smack of that, albeit unintentionally.... I'm just wondering if perhaps that part of this was not handled the best?...

And not to now offend others myself by leaving them out, but - I do find it strange, and empathize accordingly, that the (seemingly) always amazingly generous and positive and supportive Des was, to some measure or degree, overlooked....

But what do I know? I'm just the reading public, and I take whatever's served me, with a
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 06-2008
Posted From: 81.153.251.53
Posted on Sunday, July 04, 2010 - 08:37 am:   

I hold no grudges, because an anthologist has every right to choose whatever story by whomsoever, and howsoever they are chosen. I did make the point earlier on this thread, in so many words, about the 'politics' of choice and how they can not affect the story itself. I genuinely will be backing this anthology. I just thought I owed it to myself to say I was 'very disappointed' not to have a story from outset considered by invitation. I have no right to think at all that I should have been in that invitation at outset and I do write things with an acquired taste, after all. Real-time reviewing and all. :-)
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 06-2008
Posted From: 81.153.251.53
Posted on Sunday, July 04, 2010 - 09:02 am:   

BTW, Craig's mention of 'trumpeting' is true in the sense that every other Facebook post I seem to see is about this anthology and its gradual accretion of names and stories. Which can be seen to be fair when advertising a project on behalf of a charity. It's a question of perception.
As I say, I'll be supporting and pergaps real-time reviewing this anthology when it comes out. Whatever its preliminanry mechanics, the anthology and iits contents will stand on their own - on a bookshelf for centuries to come with few readers knowledgeable about its method of creation. It promises to be a great book.
I'm off in the sunshine till this evening. :-)
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.143.128.168
Posted on Sunday, July 04, 2010 - 11:23 am:   

I must admit there is a certain comic aspect to an antho about discrimination being put together by invite only.
:-)
Des is very supportive. I've not encountered many editors but he's been the best/nicest by a long mile.
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.143.128.168
Posted on Sunday, July 04, 2010 - 11:30 am:   

I went to a training day recently about the mistreatment of vulnerable adults. After a bit it started to dawn on me that sometimes the people dealing out punishment were also vulnerable. They showed a clip of Kevin Whately braying his dad (Richard Briers) who had dimentia over the head with a suitcase. The room was up in arms about it, but me, secretly i was fully understanding of the character Whately was playing. I've seen staff in old folks homes and the work they have to do and think it looks like the most depressing, most difficult work ever. I think there needs to be a place where these people can pour out those dismays.
Er, there was a connection somewhere...Ah yes; it was that I hope a book like this one allows room to experience the mind of a sympathetic racist, racism being a kind of fear in itself. Just out of interest, this is.
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.143.128.168
Posted on Sunday, July 04, 2010 - 11:31 am:   

Um, 'dementia' - dimentia is something to do with slipping into other dimensions in old age.
Hmm - sounds like the same thing.
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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 212.219.233.223
Posted on Sunday, July 04, 2010 - 11:32 am:   

Well, if we're going to bring C.S. Lewis into it, then we really have scraped the bottom of the barrel. I can't stand C.S. Lewis and his cheesy frumpy Christian propaganda fables. He was one of the worst things to happen to british fantasy in my view.

However, there was another Lewis who was an astrounding master of fantasy and who deserves to be much better known than the godawful Clive Staples -- namely Wyndham Lewis. I can't recommend highly enough his 'Human Age' trilogy: The Childermass, Monstre Gai and Malign Fiesta (the best title for any novel ever?)... Metaphysical fantasy with a touch of horror, a touch of science fiction, and a lot of darkly comic satire.

Those three volumes aren't easy books to seek out. They are woefully underrated, but I regard them as the equal of Mervyn Peake. Do they have any relevance to the theme of Fascism? Yes, certainly. Wyndham Lewis was one of those pivotal figures who are in constant struggle with their own inner 'fascism'. In other words his emotions and instincts left a lot to be desired; but he made constant efforts to assert his reason over his basic urges.

An incredible writer, a brilliant painter, sadly neglected today, alas!
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 91.110.203.225
Posted on Sunday, July 04, 2010 - 11:33 am:   

What on earth is going on? For a start, there isn't space in any anthology for every writer one might know and admire. I could list another thirty writers whom I would have liked to invite, but knew that would make the project impossible to manage logistically. Since when has it been appropriate to complain about not being included in an anthology? Since when has that been any way to behave?

I've already explained to Des that I had the impression (from some past statements of his) that he was not writing stories for print publication any more.

I've also explained to Mark that this is a joint editorial project, one of the two editors being someone whom he has crudely and publicly insulted in recent months. It's not my project, it's our project. His assumption that I am in charge is both sexist and remarkably unprincipled. If Mark imagines that I will override the feelings of my co-editor on his behalf, and that I should imagine I have the right to do so, then he is expecting of me a violation of professional and personal manners that I would find unacceptable.

I don't have time for this nonsense.
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.143.128.168
Posted on Sunday, July 04, 2010 - 11:42 am:   

We've always got to be prepared for reactions of any kind, Joel. It's chaos out there!
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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 212.219.233.223
Posted on Sunday, July 04, 2010 - 11:43 am:   

Ah well, so much for my attempts to diffuse tension...
Peacemaker isn't really my style anyway.

I'll just say to Des and Mark: for the record, I too wasn't originally on the invite list. When I first got wind of the anthology I never expected to be on the invite list -- and I had no intention of making a fuss about that (because I'm relatively normal.)

The way I got onto the invite list was through badgering and owling and doing other animal things (but not dogging) the editors and stressing the point that it was important to give a chance to someone not from the left to make an anti-fascist statement of sorts. That was my only ticket in, and I got in by the skin of my teeth.

I'm sure I know far better than either of you two what it feels like to be left off invite lists. It's just a part of the writing life. Even as I speak I am currently being left off invite lists all over the world! So what? Let's not be tossers, eh?

None of this changes the fact that Wyndham Lewis was a tremendous writer of wit, style and irony...
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.143.128.168
Posted on Sunday, July 04, 2010 - 11:56 am:   

Des wasn't being a tosser!
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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 212.219.233.223
Posted on Sunday, July 04, 2010 - 12:01 pm:   

I wasn't suggesting that anyone was a tosser; I was appealing for people not to be tossers. Obviously.

Wyndham Lewis. Worth seeking out...
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 91.110.203.225
Posted on Sunday, July 04, 2010 - 12:18 pm:   

"through badgering and owling and doing other animal things (but not dogging) the editors"

That invite didn't reach you, then?
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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 212.219.233.223
Posted on Sunday, July 04, 2010 - 12:21 pm:   

My eyes aren't quite as sharp as they were these days, Joel, and I can't afford infra red specs.
Plus I don't like nettles.
So I don't dog.
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Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.96.240.106
Posted on Sunday, July 04, 2010 - 01:38 pm:   

Wyndham Lewis...sounds bloody great to me. Cheers, Rhys, for giving me yet another author whose work I need to track down.
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Skunsworth (Skunsworth)
Username: Skunsworth

Registered: 05-2009
Posted From: 92.16.77.13
Posted on Sunday, July 04, 2010 - 02:42 pm:   

I'm a tosser and I got on the list. Must have been an oversight on Ally and Joel's behalf...

S
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Mark_samuels (Mark_samuels)
Username: Mark_samuels

Registered: 04-2010
Posted From: 86.133.23.20
Posted on Sunday, July 04, 2010 - 02:53 pm:   

I've complained several times about not being asked to submit to "invite only" anthologies if I think I could have contributed a tale that would have added substantive value to them. I complained about not being asked for a story in The British Invasion edited by Tim Lebbon &c. I did the same for Ellen Datlow's Lovecraft Unbound and Poe: 19 New Tales.

So what? It's a tribute to the anthologies. Professional editors know this and don't turn expressed disappointment into a basis for character assassination with subsequent accusations of "sexism" and being "unprincipled".

Sad really.

Mark S.
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Mark_samuels (Mark_samuels)
Username: Mark_samuels

Registered: 04-2010
Posted From: 86.133.23.20
Posted on Sunday, July 04, 2010 - 03:01 pm:   

As for Wyndham Lewis: avoid Tarr like the plague. It's deadly dull. Honestly.

Mark S.
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 91.110.167.244
Posted on Sunday, July 04, 2010 - 03:11 pm:   

Mark, as you know very well, I'm going purely on the basis oif your own statements made here. Did you publicly accuse Tim and Ellen of trying to curry favour with others by shunning you? No. Did you accuse them of showing coardice by not overriding the feelings of a female co-editor whom you had insulted (and thereby showing that you thought her role in the project was subordinate)? No.

You have clearly mastered the Jesuitical craft of creating false syllogisms in order to present a logically perfect argument that actually bears no relationship to the realities under discussion. As such, trying to argue with you is like trying to petition a tsunami. I honestly don't have time to keep holding up your delusions and half-truths in one hand and the reality in the other. If you want to talk to me, please e-mail me.
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 91.110.167.244
Posted on Sunday, July 04, 2010 - 03:12 pm:   

P.S. Forgive the typos. I'm in a hurry.
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 06-2008
Posted From: 81.153.251.53
Posted on Sunday, July 04, 2010 - 05:42 pm:   

I haven't read all the posts between mine and this one. just got a flavour of them.
I was merely saying I was disappointed not to be invited to provide a story for consideration. Disappointment doesnt lay blame or pre-empt actions that have happened, It was an honest emotion last night (when I learned the list of stories was complete) that I wished to express in the light of the earlier debate here. Perhaps I shouldn't have done. If I have spoken out of turn in public, then I apologise.
One can invite, say, a hundred authors' stories to consider and choose ten or invite 12 authors' stories and still chose ten, it's up to the editors.
Equally, this is a discussion forum. It was openly admitted earlier that one author wasn't invited to submit for reasons other than his fiction. It is that point I was earlier (not today) simply *debating* in the context of this book, i.e. not breaking any rules of polite engagement as Joel implies. It takes no rights from an anthologist to choose whom and how he or she likes to choose.
Just to make one personal point, I have been writing much fiction over the last ten years - in the hope that one day it would be printed.
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 91.110.191.183
Posted on Sunday, July 04, 2010 - 06:29 pm:   

Des, that's fair comment. But "reasons other than his fiction" is an abstract term and we are dealing with a concrete issue: a personal insult to one of the editors. No 'matter of principle' takes automatic precedence over that. I can only reiterate that literary practice cannot be an exception from basic standards of social and professional behaviour. There is a nemo in nemo me immune lacessit, after all.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.23.15.37
Posted on Sunday, July 04, 2010 - 06:36 pm:   

>>>There is a nemo in nemo me immune lacessit, after all.

That's what I was just about to say. But then, I have just had 18 pints of cider and 12 doughnuts.
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 06-2008
Posted From: 81.153.251.53
Posted on Sunday, July 04, 2010 - 06:39 pm:   

I don't think Mark ever personally insulted anyone. That was someone else. But my memory may be amiss. His fiction is too important to be entrammelled in anything but itself.
However, I did not support Mark at all in that row. He was wrong as I said several times. And I supporetd the writer in question and her work before and after the row.
des
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.23.15.37
Posted on Sunday, July 04, 2010 - 06:41 pm:   

>>>I complained about not being asked for a story in The British Invasion edited by Tim Lebbon &c. I did the same for Ellen Datlow's Lovecraft Unbound and Poe: 19 New Tales.

Did you really, Mark? I feel pretty confident in claiming that that is pretty uncommon behaviour among writers.

Not trying to argue. Just stating what I believe to be a fact.

Hardly anyone asks me to contribute to anything. When the books come out, I just call the editors cunts - but sotto voce, you know: with dignity - and then get on with my life. :-)
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 06-2008
Posted From: 81.153.251.53
Posted on Sunday, July 04, 2010 - 06:50 pm:   

If Mark says he 'complained' - I agree with Gary.

If anyone expresses 'disappointment' (as I did), that is a natural human reaction. Sometimes sotto voce flies out of the window when emotions are high. Nobody is perfect, especially me. :-)
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 91.110.171.140
Posted on Sunday, July 04, 2010 - 07:04 pm:   

I think there's been enough said on these matters. We're in the middle of a heatwave, the days are long and the nights are stifling.

We shouldn't be arguing unecessarily. After all, it's not as though anti-racist and anti-fascist political movements ever break up into factions and bicker.
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 06-2008
Posted From: 81.153.251.53
Posted on Sunday, July 04, 2010 - 07:08 pm:   

...as long as we are all clear about the facts of this case.
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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 80.4.12.3
Posted on Sunday, July 04, 2010 - 07:19 pm:   

Unfortunately one man's clarity is another man's milkiness...
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 06-2008
Posted From: 81.153.251.53
Posted on Sunday, July 04, 2010 - 07:22 pm:   

One man's impulse, is another man's connivance.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.23.15.37
Posted on Sunday, July 04, 2010 - 07:24 pm:   

One man's fish is another man's poisson.
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 06-2008
Posted From: 81.153.251.53
Posted on Sunday, July 04, 2010 - 07:27 pm:   

If Gary has the last word, I'm happy. :-)
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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 80.4.12.3
Posted on Sunday, July 04, 2010 - 07:27 pm:   

One man's Fry is another man's sauté.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.23.15.37
Posted on Sunday, July 04, 2010 - 07:47 pm:   

One man's saute is another man's invasion.
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Mark_samuels (Mark_samuels)
Username: Mark_samuels

Registered: 04-2010
Posted From: 86.133.23.20
Posted on Sunday, July 04, 2010 - 10:34 pm:   

I'd like Joel to back up his claim about the apparently morally unforgivable "personal insult" I directed at Allyson, please. His actions revolve around it. I think we should have it out in the open so folk can judge for themselves just how grievous it is.

I am getting tired of vague accusations and innuendo. Let's have the facts.

What was it?

Mark S.
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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 80.4.12.3
Posted on Sunday, July 04, 2010 - 10:53 pm:   

I am "folk". And I accept your invitation to judge. You were unchivalrous, Mark. Simple as that. And that's pretty fucking grievous.

What are you seeking to gain, exactly?

You're supposed to be a Christian. Show at least one Christian value, for fuck's sake.
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Mark_samuels (Mark_samuels)
Username: Mark_samuels

Registered: 04-2010
Posted From: 86.133.23.20
Posted on Sunday, July 04, 2010 - 11:10 pm:   

Sorry, coming back on what Gary said:

Yes, I should have said "expressed disappointment" rather than "complained" and made myself clearer with regard to the Datlow and Lebbon anthologies. Admittedly there's a difference with what happened with those and what's transpired with Never Again.

I wouldn't have realised the importance of making that point clear were it not for my having just noticed this:

http://davidandrewriley.blogspot.com/2010/07/what-do-you-do-if-youre-not-invited .html



Mark S.
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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 80.4.12.3
Posted on Sunday, July 04, 2010 - 11:19 pm:   

My main concern about this whole little spat is this... When ordinary readers (i.e. normal people) get to hear that an "anti-Fascist" anthology has been prepared and that it was opposed almost from the beginning they will inevitably draw certain conclusions about why it was opposed.

I don't need to spell out what those conclusions will be... They won't conclude that authors were disgruntled because they didn't get invites to help contribute to the cause.

Think on't, chaps and chappesses.
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 06-2008
Posted From: 81.153.251.53
Posted on Sunday, July 04, 2010 - 11:21 pm:   

This argument has come full circle, so much so I am copying and pasting my much earlier post from above:
============================
People are discussing this issue because a corner of the curtain has been voluntarily lifted publicly here regarding its process.

It is, however, a complex subject – not one worthy of argument or recrimination or diminishing the chances of the book to succeed.

The subject surrounds considerations regarding (1) a charity book (do you choose authors with known sympathy for the ethos of the charity, for example?) (2) a debate concerning invite only anthologies and (3) dual editorship.

It also concerns the objective of the book to sell so at to do its best for the charity (one I support): do they choose the best stories available over author-names (reprints etc) or vice versa or hopefully both - and which of the editors has a veto or whether they go for half the stories chosen each?

It seems that Mark Samuels would have been in this book (on the count of likely one of the best stories available *and* his name-credit) – an optimum for the book – had there not been a row last year (one in which I took against his position).

I think Mark's exclusion is a shame. And a line should have been drawn under last year's row before now by the parties involved for the sake of the genre.
==================================

I would add the further *debating* point: the way this anthology is being advertised with piecemeal public acceptances of stories on Facebook and elsewhere over a few weeks' period. Is this productive or counter-productive within a circle of writers who may have wanted to write a story for it? I genuinely don't know.
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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 80.4.12.3
Posted on Sunday, July 04, 2010 - 11:29 pm:   

Well, Des, is you're allowed to paste previous messages, I guess I can do the same.

This is my message on Stephen Volk's FB page, where you made the same "debating" point:

====================================

This anthology is a special case. It needs as much promo as possible, so "leaking" the authors one at a time gives more opportunity for a longer publicity campaign.

It's the same technique used by Des when he "outed" the pseudonymous contributors to the Nemonymous magazines.

====================================

That's the answer to your question, Des.
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 91.110.210.181
Posted on Sunday, July 04, 2010 - 11:32 pm:   

Mark, I'm not prepared to repeat your comments about Allyson, including the unmistakeable jibe in a story (your denial of which strikes me as highly disingenuous) so that you can enjoy Allson's discomfort before managing some elaborate philosophical denial of culpability. I don't want to play that game. How many times do I have to say that Allyson is the co-editor of this book? All I have done is decide not to pressurise her to work with someone who has insulted her. That's how people behave when they work together.

No doubt a future story of yours will feature an ageing queen called Leoj who denies an old friend in order to please an in-crowd. Why don't you just go ahead and write it?

If you really wanted answers to your questions you would have e-mailed me, as I suggested a fortnight ago and then suggested again yesterday. What you want is to publicly make life difficult for me. I warn you that you have no idea how hard I am to intimidate. I used to be a trade union rep.

Stop this dishonest posturing now. I do not intend to go on wasting time and energy on your attempts to play the victim card.
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 06-2008
Posted From: 81.153.251.53
Posted on Sunday, July 04, 2010 - 11:34 pm:   

Yes, I saw that.
You may be right. But I sense there are some who think otherwise. Publicity has to be carefully focussed.
Of course, the Nemonymous denemonisations of the early 21st century were something quite different. They happened after most of mags were sold and announced on a private Yahoogroups as part of the 'groundbreaking' fun of Nemonymous at that time, as I recall.
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 91.110.210.181
Posted on Sunday, July 04, 2010 - 11:34 pm:   

Again, apologies for typing errors (especially to Allyson). My keyboard has seen better days. So have I. Days and years and even decades when people involved in literature behaved in accordance with a sense of manners.
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 06-2008
Posted From: 81.153.251.53
Posted on Sunday, July 04, 2010 - 11:35 pm:   

My last post was in answer to my friend Rhys.
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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 80.4.12.3
Posted on Sunday, July 04, 2010 - 11:35 pm:   

Good for you, Joel. And to think that many years ago I was under the misguided impression you were a boho fake.

What a twat I must have been!

Can I have permission to write a story about Leoj, btw?
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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 80.4.12.3
Posted on Sunday, July 04, 2010 - 11:37 pm:   

Des, no offence mate, but you're hardly in any position to disparage anyone at all for over-promoting anything.
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 06-2008
Posted From: 81.153.251.53
Posted on Sunday, July 04, 2010 - 11:43 pm:   

Yes, Rhys, I'm only responsible for Nemo and DFL. I'm thinking of the best way to publicise a charity book which should be warned not to follow my example if yoiu are right by what you imply! :-)

It was only following up something Craig brought up earlier on this thread.
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Des (Des)
Username: Des

Registered: 06-2008
Posted From: 81.153.251.53
Posted on Monday, July 05, 2010 - 12:03 am:   

I've re-read this whole thread. There seems to be a wrong-headedness on both sides of the argument - or should I say on all sides of the argument.
It's not going to be resolved here, I guess.
Disppointed, tonight, I feel like leaving the whole business.
Good luck with the book.
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Mark_samuels (Mark_samuels)
Username: Mark_samuels

Registered: 04-2010
Posted From: 86.133.23.20
Posted on Monday, July 05, 2010 - 12:37 am:   

Joel

I'm actually in favour of people making their own minds up when presented with what's been said, rather than spin. Which is why I invited you to justify publicly the claims you've made publicly: again, either do so or admit they're not remotely worthy of your over-reaction.

I do find it depressing that you've again responded thusly e.g.:

No doubt a future story of yours will feature an ageing queen called Leoj who denies an old friend in order to please an in-crowd. Why don't you just go ahead and write it?

It's unworthy of you.

I'm afraid that you're now trying to turn this into some kind of self-justifying narrative whereby my exclusion is reasonable on political grounds: your accusations of my being sexist, for example.

Again: I ask you all this. Were the positions reversed and I were editing the book with Joel, how do you think Allyson would have reacted if she found out she'd been deliberately blacklisted?

There's a huge difference between being wilfully blacklisted and merely not being invited. If you can't see that, well, there's not a lot more to be said.

Mark S.
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 91.110.135.82
Posted on Monday, July 05, 2010 - 12:59 am:   

There is no blacklist Mark. You weren't invited into this specific project for a reason that is totally obvious to everyone but you. I've made it abundantly clear that no contributor was politically 'vetted' or required to state any kind of belief.

The simple fact is that, having personally insulted Allyson in public ways, you were not invited to contribute to a project in which her editorial role was at least as important as mine, if not more so. It's incredibly simple, but you insist on muddying the waters.

I've called you 'sexist' because you continue to insist that this must have been my project, not Allyson's, and that her perspective is not relevant.

If you take a dump on someone's doorstep, you can't expect them to invite you round for tea the next day.

Now for heaven's sake leave it alone.
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 91.110.135.82
Posted on Monday, July 05, 2010 - 01:09 am:   

David Riley's point about the Sophie Lancaster Foundation is actually very interesting. He's right that Sophie Lancaster's murder was nothing to do with either racism or fascism as such. However, it was a 'hate crime' based on social and cultural intolerance, and Allyson and I therefore chose to draw attention to it in the context of this book. This being a collection of stories rather than a non-fiction work, we don't need to interpret 'fascism' in a politically exact sense.
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Hubert (Hubert)
Username: Hubert

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 78.22.234.38
Posted on Monday, July 05, 2010 - 01:16 am:   

There is a nemo in nemo me immune lacessit, after all.

It's impune lacessit, folks. It means 'with impunity'.
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 91.110.135.82
Posted on Monday, July 05, 2010 - 01:20 am:   

Sorry, Hubert. Thanks for the correction. Hot weather and lack of sleep. I know the quote and what it means.

It's kind of tattooed on my heart.
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Mark_samuels (Mark_samuels)
Username: Mark_samuels

Registered: 04-2010
Posted From: 86.133.23.20
Posted on Monday, July 05, 2010 - 01:23 am:   

I'm sorry Joel, but what part of the definition of the word "blacklist" are you having trouble understanding? It fits the case perfectly. Go look it up.

I wish you'd drop your use of scatalogical metaphors. They don't do you any favours.

Moreover, I have never "continued to insist" it was your project alone and not jointly Allyson's. So your charge of me being a "sexist" is exactly this: a baseless smear. It's true however, that I expected you, as an individual, to be the sort of person able to encourage a co-editor to forego personal grudges when it comes to putting together an anthology.

I was wrong.

Mark S.
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 75.4.239.88
Posted on Monday, July 05, 2010 - 09:06 am:   

You know, Mark... and even Des?... going back to that very first original posting by Allyson now... and backtracking on what I said earlier, about mentioning it at all... there is a subtle implication there, that this new anthology is ongoing - "started looking at," and "build up from the many other wonderful submissions," and "longer to decide on," and so on....

So perhaps some jumped the gun, in assuming it was closed? Not to be invited, not asked to submit, doesn't necessarily mean, blacklisted... it might be chafing to not be asked or invited, but it doesn't mean you'd have been outright refused entry, I don't think....

Isn't it possible if you or anyone (hell, me!) had asked nicely to have a chance to submit something, either/or both Joel or Allyson would have at least considered it nicely?... politely?... with respect and kindness, even if having to ultimately say, sorry, but can't at this time?...
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Skunsworth (Skunsworth)
Username: Skunsworth

Registered: 05-2009
Posted From: 92.16.77.13
Posted on Monday, July 05, 2010 - 09:59 am:   

For fuck's sake, is this still rattling on? It seems to me that the fundemental point is that, whether it's for a charitable cause or to make them squillions of pounds, that this is Joel and Ally's anthology (and Gary F's, of course), so they get to choose who to invite/not invite. Full stop, get over it. Further, I'd say that Joel has carefully, raexplained his and Ally's postion, and the reason they took that position, and at this point everyone may have to simply agree or disagree and, I say again, GET OVER IT.

S

PS Mark: "Again: I ask you all this. Were the positions reversed and I were editing the book with Joel, how do you think Allyson would have reacted if she found out she'd been deliberately blacklisted?" Well, I wonder if she'd maybe post about it in a public venue rather than sending an email to the editors, because clearly that's how she behaves and you don't. Oh, no, wait a minute...
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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 80.4.12.3
Posted on Monday, July 05, 2010 - 10:52 am:   

> Isn't it possible if you or anyone (hell, me!) had asked nicely to have a chance to submit something, either/or both Joel or Allyson would have at least considered it nicely?... politely?... with respect and kindness, even if having to ultimately say, sorry, but can't at this time?...

Thanks for making that point, Craig. That's exactly what I did. I wasn't originally invited, so I asked to be invited and explained what I had to offer that might be different from what other writers might have to offer. I wasn't expecting a "Yes" reply; and I wouldn't have made a fuss about a "No", because I'm not mentally ill.

> There seems to be a wrong-headedness on both sides of the argument - or should I say on all sides of the argument... Diasppointed, tonight, I feel like leaving the whole business.

Not quite right, Des. Utterly wrong, in fact. There's wrong-headedness on only one side of the argument -- the wrong side. Good idea, though, about you leaving the whole business. Again. Like Frank Sinatra.

(Tonight I'm going to show this thread to some normal people -- i.e. people who aren't writers -- people who don't refer to themselves in the third person -- people who actually do things with their lives -- people who don't think that their "work" is important -- you know, regular people, human beings. I'm interested to see what their reaction will be. My guess is that they'll consider Mark to be a tosser, but we'll see...)
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Kate (Kathleen)
Username: Kathleen

Registered: 09-2009
Posted From: 213.122.209.76
Posted on Monday, July 05, 2010 - 11:25 am:   

I'm going to show this thread to some normal people -- i.e. people who aren't writers -- people who don't refer to themselves in the third person -- people who actually do things with their lives -- people who don't think that their "work" is important -- you know, regular people, human beings.

Whatever those are, Rhys, they sound scary. Do be careful.
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 217.37.199.45
Posted on Monday, July 05, 2010 - 11:27 am:   

Des, your departure from the small press would be a major loss. Your perspective is unique and so is your talent. In a situation where you have made your views clear and so have others, isn't it best just to move on to something more positive?

Mark, I just feel you're trying to pass on the blame for a situation you have created and you should accept responsibility for. That's all.

My work here is done. I have nothing more to say except that the book is going to be a really interesting, unusual and worthwhile read. If I revisit this thread it will be to discuss what is in the book, not what is not in it.
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Skunsworth (Skunsworth)
Username: Skunsworth

Registered: 05-2009
Posted From: 92.16.77.13
Posted on Monday, July 05, 2010 - 11:29 am:   

Hear hear and well said Joel!

S

PS I'd have said that myself but I'm feeling too grumpy to be reasonable today :-)
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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 80.4.12.3
Posted on Monday, July 05, 2010 - 11:29 am:   

I'm never careful, Kate, but thanks for the warning!

"The secret for harvesting from existence the greatest fruitfulness and the greatest enjoyment is: to live dangerously!" -- Nietzsche

That's from a Nietzsche book called The Gay Science; the title shouldn't, but does, remind me of Alan Turing.
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Mark_samuels (Mark_samuels)
Username: Mark_samuels

Registered: 04-2010
Posted From: 86.133.23.20
Posted on Monday, July 05, 2010 - 11:29 am:   

I must admit I expected a better calibre of response, rather than a continued smear campaign from the usual suspects!

Anyway, I'm not sure what stories you're referring to, Joel, so list them. I'll see if I can help you with your new hobby of seeking "calumnies" in my work for you to justify your over-reactions.

Nevertheless, when it comes to disagreements I prefer to deal in facts, not in fiction.

Can I ask whether you would mind my reproducing here the correspondence we had about Allyson and the BFS dating to 10th Jan 2010? Since you have nothing to hide and are totally upfront and honest, it would be instructive for others, not least Allyson herself, to see how you frame things privately as opposed to publicly?

It would certainly allow those following this exchange to make a balanced judgement free from the cloud of personal animosity that now colours your remarks about me.

Mark S.
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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 80.4.12.3
Posted on Monday, July 05, 2010 - 11:32 am:   

Mark: I remember how you e-mailed me many years ago with great delight to announce that you had encapsulated a personal attack on me in one of your novellas. I still have your e-mail somewhere. I can't remember which work you were referring to, but I think it had some Cornish writer in a pub or something.

It has taken me many years to get around to thinking about revenge for that, but you'll be gratified to know that I am currently working on a story that's a 'tribute' to you. It's about wanking and it's called 'The Sticky White Hands'.
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 217.37.199.45
Posted on Monday, July 05, 2010 - 11:44 am:   

Mark – as you can see, my previous comment has now been deleted at my request in the interest of stopping this. My personal correspondence with you in January was an attempt to appeal to your better nature. I do not consent to your reproducing it in a public forum.
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Skunsworth (Skunsworth)
Username: Skunsworth

Registered: 05-2009
Posted From: 92.16.77.13
Posted on Monday, July 05, 2010 - 11:47 am:   

Keeping Your Mouth Shut from the Black Book of Horror 6 is another, although I know you've denied that it's about Ally. I personally don't believe your denial, but I don't suppose that matters one whit, does it? I mean, even if it's not about Ally, it shows your feeling towards small press/new authors in general, doesn't it?

And yes, before anyone brings it up, I named the characters in my story Bird and Samuels, and I'll take whatever fallout that brings.

S
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Mark_samuels (Mark_samuels)
Username: Mark_samuels

Registered: 04-2010
Posted From: 86.133.23.20
Posted on Monday, July 05, 2010 - 11:48 am:   

Sighs "many years ago"...

Are posts being deleted here? I'm sure there was a quite vicious one here a moment ago by Joel, which I answered (about putting writers into my stories) and which has now vanished.

Mark S.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 129.11.76.229
Posted on Monday, July 05, 2010 - 11:53 am:   

I delete posts at the request of their authors and will do so whoever asks me to.

That must be clear.
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Mark_samuels (Mark_samuels)
Username: Mark_samuels

Registered: 04-2010
Posted From: 86.133.23.20
Posted on Monday, July 05, 2010 - 12:00 pm:   

It certainly merited deletion.

Mark S.
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Skunsworth (Skunsworth)
Username: Skunsworth

Registered: 05-2009
Posted From: 92.16.77.13
Posted on Monday, July 05, 2010 - 12:00 pm:   

Why does many years ago make a difference? At what point on the timeline do we say, Oh that was ages ago, it doesn't matter? Please clarify so that the rest of us can be enlightened.

S
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Mark_samuels (Mark_samuels)
Username: Mark_samuels

Registered: 04-2010
Posted From: 86.133.23.20
Posted on Monday, July 05, 2010 - 12:06 pm:   

Ask Rhys about being bounced by the Rodens, Simon.

Or for that matter "Elusive Plato" and Mark "Xeethra" Samuels. Sauce for the goose, old boy

Mark S.
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Weber (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 194.176.105.55
Posted on Monday, July 05, 2010 - 12:58 pm:   

Is it really possible to be bounced from an Antho you weren't invited to?

Mark, please just stop and think, you complaining about Ally and Joel not inviting you is about the same as Ramsey complaining if Chris Barker didn't invite him to contribute to an anthology.

The way you publicly have a go at Ally time and time again - there are a few threads just on this website, never mind comments you made in your own blog and on other boards and in your stories etc - is enough justification to make her and therefore Joel not consider you for this book.

If you want to think you've been blacklisted, just think of the reason you're there.

Now please can we draw a line under this thread AGAIN


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------
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Skunsworth (Skunsworth)
Username: Skunsworth

Registered: 05-2009
Posted From: 92.16.77.13
Posted on Monday, July 05, 2010 - 01:04 pm:   

Mark, you've (deliberately or otherwise) missed the point of my last post. I already know and have discussed with Rhys the situation that arose between him and the Rodens, and I fail to see its relevance here - what I asked you was, what difference does something being many years ago make? Is there some kind of statute of limitations on how long we're expected to remember how we were treated by people, and consequently how long we can legitimately be expected to react negatively towards those people? If there is, I'd love to know it, as I'm sure would Ally and Joel: they could then mark the date in their diary and, when it comes around, no longer have to discuss any aspect of this with you rationally, politely responding each time you bring up a different version of your original argument, the counter to which has already been clearly explained, and simply respond by saying, Oh Mark, that was ages ago, you should have gotten over it and moved on by now.

As for the other things you've mentioned, I have no idea what they are - are they Rhys' stories that you believe you appear in?

S
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Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey)
Username: Ramsey

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 195.93.21.74
Posted on Monday, July 05, 2010 - 01:08 pm:   

I believe I have found a reasonable solution. Mark, since you are so unhappy about having been excluded from this anthology, may I suggest you edit one on a similar theme for charity?
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Skunsworth (Skunsworth)
Username: Skunsworth

Registered: 05-2009
Posted From: 92.16.77.13
Posted on Monday, July 05, 2010 - 01:18 pm:   

Good plan! And we'd expect you to invite us all to contribute! :-)

S
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 129.11.76.229
Posted on Monday, July 05, 2010 - 01:23 pm:   

>>>I believe I have found a reasonable solution. Mark, since you are so unhappy about having been excluded from this anthology, may I suggest you edit one on a similar theme for charity?

And do feel free to approach me to publish it.
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Mark_samuels (Mark_samuels)
Username: Mark_samuels

Registered: 04-2010
Posted From: 86.133.23.20
Posted on Monday, July 05, 2010 - 01:36 pm:   

My point was, Simon, that I've been bombarded from the sidelines by Rhys who's held himself up as a model of maturity. His reaction to the situation with the Rodens belies this self-image.

You, yourself, do the same thing. Yet, when you were bounced by Ex Occidente you turned it into a personal issue. I know you've said "oh but I sent him some stories and he said he'd accept them". What you did, correct me if I'm wrong, was to send some sample stories and when asked to provide more, got the response they were sub-standard and not worthy of publication.

As for "Elusive Plato", there's no "believe" about it. Obviously you're not to know this, but it appeared in 1998. Rhys is always putting people he knows in his fiction; and not necessarily in their best light.

Do I care about authors putting me into a story? Not really. People putting versions of folk they know into stories happens all the time. Obviously they're representations filtered through the imagination.

I appreciate your suggestion, Ramsey, but I have no desire to edit anthologies. I regard myself as an author, not an editor. I also worry that, were I do so, inevitable accusations would be levelled at me of paying off old scores...

Weber: again, this "narrative" about Allyson. I do wish people would quote rather than suggest what's been said.

Mark S.
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Skunsworth (Skunsworth)
Username: Skunsworth

Registered: 05-2009
Posted From: 92.16.77.13
Posted on Monday, July 05, 2010 - 01:51 pm:   

Mark: about Ex Occidente, yes, you're wrong but if you've been getting your information from Dan, I'm not particularly surprised. And my point was that the length of time since a comment was made, which was what you picked up on in Rhys' post, makes no difference (which you've yet again managed to avoid addressing).

Perhaps, if you aren't going to edit your own anthology, and if you feel so strongly about the issues addressed by Never Again, you could simply express your disappointment about your being excluded, take responsibility for why and wish the book the best.

S
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Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey)
Username: Ramsey

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 195.93.21.74
Posted on Monday, July 05, 2010 - 01:52 pm:   

Absolutely, Simon.
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Weber (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 194.176.105.55
Posted on Monday, July 05, 2010 - 02:08 pm:   

Sorry Ramsey, I got my analogy the wrong way round in my previous post. It should read "it would be like CB complaining because RC didn't ask him to contribute".
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Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey)
Username: Ramsey

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 195.93.21.74
Posted on Monday, July 05, 2010 - 02:22 pm:   

Don't worry, Marc!
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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 80.4.12.3
Posted on Monday, July 05, 2010 - 02:57 pm:   

> As for "Elusive Plato", there's no "believe" about it. Obviously you're not to know this, but it appeared in 1998. Rhys is always putting people he knows in his fiction; and not necessarily in their best light.

Mark, when that story was published, we were friends. I sent you a copy of the book and you approved. I still have your old letters, you do realise that, don't you? Should I scan them in and make them available on Flickr to everyone, I wonder? There are some juicy passages indeed -- attacks on women, pacifists, atheists, and rather unflattering criticisms of Ramsey Campbell and even Des Lewis.

When I used you as "Mark Xeethra Samuels" in various stories, you were my friend, and that character was something of a hero. Indeed, I was recently re-reading the stories in Worming the Harpy where Mark Xeethra Samuels appears; for the second edition I thought about changing the character from a scholar to a tosser, but you know something? I'm not quite that petty... So he's going to remain a scholar.

Putting real people into stories is called "Tuckerization" and is a process with a noble pedigree. Lovecraft did it with Robert Bloch, for instance.
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Skunsworth (Skunsworth)
Username: Skunsworth

Registered: 05-2009
Posted From: 92.16.77.13
Posted on Monday, July 05, 2010 - 03:21 pm:   

It has a noble pedigree? Damn! I was hoping for an ignoble one!

S
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Huw (Huw)
Username: Huw

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 220.138.167.93
Posted on Monday, July 05, 2010 - 03:33 pm:   

E.T.A. Hoffmann was always getting into trouble for making fun of real characters (usually officials) in his fiction. He was exiled to Poland for it at one point!
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Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey)
Username: Ramsey

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 195.93.21.74
Posted on Monday, July 05, 2010 - 03:37 pm:   

"Putting real people into stories is called "Tuckerization" and is a process with a noble pedigree. Lovecraft did it with Robert Bloch, for instance."

True, but with Bob's permission, and after Lovecraft had first given him written authorisation to kill Lovecraft in "The Shambler from the Stars". That said, Frank Long had previously made away with HPL off his own bat in "The Space-Eaters".
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Weber (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 194.176.105.55
Posted on Monday, July 05, 2010 - 03:56 pm:   

If anyone wants to kill me off in a story, feel free. The more creative and nasty death the better - but under my real name rather than Weber (Jonathan Carroll might be annoyed if you killed his characters off).
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 129.11.76.229
Posted on Monday, July 05, 2010 - 04:33 pm:   

Why bring a story into it, Weber?
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Weber (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 194.176.105.55
Posted on Monday, July 05, 2010 - 04:37 pm:   

Well my two main hobbies are breathing, and avoiding sharp pointy things, I'd like to keep up with those for a bit longer.
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Weber (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 194.176.105.55
Posted on Monday, July 05, 2010 - 04:37 pm:   

and putting commas in, where they're not needed,
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 75.4.231.159
Posted on Monday, July 05, 2010 - 04:44 pm:   

THE STRANGE DEATH OF MARC LYNTH, I THINK HIS REAL NAME IS, NOT SURE

by Craig Schwartz

Marc was walking down the street - naked - minding his own business, when along came a double-decker bus, and not only mashed him to a pulp on the sidewalk (note: the bus had jumped a curb), but proceeded to violate whatever orifices were left intact, with long pointy prickly objects, that caused much pain.

The End
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 129.11.76.229
Posted on Monday, July 05, 2010 - 04:51 pm:   

Not bad, but it definitely needs paring down a bit. Get rid of some of that bloat.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 129.11.76.229
Posted on Monday, July 05, 2010 - 04:53 pm:   

Weber, I mean, not your story.
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Kate (Kathleen)
Username: Kathleen

Registered: 09-2009
Posted From: 213.122.209.76
Posted on Monday, July 05, 2010 - 05:03 pm:   

Won't sell, Craig. It needs more explosions. And some gratuitous sex.
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Weber (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 194.176.105.55
Posted on Monday, July 05, 2010 - 05:04 pm:   

Thank you Gary - I'm so glad I killed you off in Bad Teeth now.
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Weber (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 194.176.105.55
Posted on Monday, July 05, 2010 - 05:06 pm:   

THE STRANGE DEATH OF MARC LYNTH, I THINK HIS REAL NAME IS, NOT SURE

by Craig Schwartz - edited by Weber/Marc

Marc was walking down the street - naked - minding his own business, when along came a double-decker bus, and not only mashed him to a pulp on the sidewalk (note: the bus had jumped a curb), but proceeded to violate whatever orifices were left intact, with long pointy prickly objects, that caused much pain. Then the bus exploded while the driver had gratuitous sex with three nubile swedish milkmaids who were on his bus.

The End
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Weber (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 194.176.105.55
Posted on Monday, July 05, 2010 - 05:06 pm:   

More like that Kate?
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Skunsworth (Skunsworth)
Username: Skunsworth

Registered: 05-2009
Posted From: 92.16.77.13
Posted on Monday, July 05, 2010 - 05:08 pm:   

Hell's teeth, I'm missing out on a good thing here. Is there space for me on the bus? I don't mind snuffing it, if the part calls for it,and I'll cope with the naked Swedish milkmaids if I'm pressured...

S
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Weber (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 194.176.105.55
Posted on Monday, July 05, 2010 - 05:12 pm:   

Did I say the milkmaids were wearing tight black leather?
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Kate (Kathleen)
Username: Kathleen

Registered: 09-2009
Posted From: 213.122.209.76
Posted on Monday, July 05, 2010 - 05:15 pm:   

How To Write A Michael Bay Film 101.
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Barbara Roden (Nebuly)
Username: Nebuly

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 142.179.5.235
Posted on Monday, July 05, 2010 - 05:43 pm:   

Been following this thread with some interest, and while there are several things I'd like to say I will confine myself to commenting on the following statement of Mark's:

"Ask Rhys about being bounced by the Rodens, Simon."

And the subsequent references by others to Rhys and 'the Rodens'. For the record, this is in relation to EXOTIC GOTHIC 3, published by Ash-Tree Press in 2009 and edited by Danel Olson. My sole contribution to EG3 was to submit a story which was subsequently accepted by Danel. I did not read any of the other submissions, and had no idea who had submitted stories, save for one or two friends who told me privately. I also had no part whatsoever in the book's preparation or production, and no input into which stories were selected. So whatever the rights or wrongs of the matter, please do not involve me in it. There are times when it is legitimate to tag me as part of the entity known as 'the Rodens'; this is not one of them.
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Mark_samuels (Mark_samuels)
Username: Mark_samuels

Registered: 04-2010
Posted From: 86.133.23.20
Posted on Monday, July 05, 2010 - 06:54 pm:   

Rhys

I've still got your letters too! Alas, I must confess I haven't looked at them since I first receieved them. But I'm glad my own missives from fifteen or so years ago still provide you with entertainment though...

Ah, the heady days of youth eh?



Mark S.
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Skunsworth (Skunsworth)
Username: Skunsworth

Registered: 05-2009
Posted From: 92.16.77.13
Posted on Monday, July 05, 2010 - 07:03 pm:   

Apologies, Barbara - I should have picked up on this when I responded to Mark S above and clarified.

S
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 75.4.235.17
Posted on Monday, July 05, 2010 - 09:14 pm:   

Whoops. I forgot to add "... a double-decker bus with a swastika on it..."

Okay, now can I be in that anthology, Allyson/Joel?
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Matthew_fell (Matthew_fell)
Username: Matthew_fell

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 142.179.5.235
Posted on Monday, July 05, 2010 - 09:44 pm:   

. . . Ask Rhys about being bounced by the Rodens, Simon. . . .

You can ask him, and no doubt you'll get the inaccurate Hughes version of events which he's been touting ever since the rejection. The FACTS are that I felt strongly about a story that was, to put it kindly, silly and poorly written and not in keeping with the other stories that had been selected for inclusion in the anthology. After discussing the matter with the editor concerned, he accepted my viewpoint.
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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 80.4.12.3
Posted on Monday, July 05, 2010 - 11:01 pm:   

Why don't we ask Danel Olsen for his version of the facts? He accepted my story for the anthology; he edited it and produced a final draft. Then the publisher overruled him. Fine. But a word of explanation from the publisher would have been nice. I don't expect much, just standard treatment. If I'd had just a few lines of explanation I wouldn't have made any fuss whatsoever.

As for my story being poorly written: that's just a matter of taste. I personally regard it as one of my finest and it's taking pride of place in my next collection, but when it comes to fiction there's no real objective standpoint, is there?

I don't intend to discuss the Rodens in a thread devoted to a charity anthology themed around the cause of anti-Fascism. It's taking the subject down a very crooked sidepath.
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Carolinec (Carolinec)
Username: Carolinec

Registered: 06-2009
Posted From: 82.38.75.85
Posted on Monday, July 05, 2010 - 11:21 pm:   

Oh dear, this is sad. I'm not quite sure what to say. I haven't read every post in detail (and it seems I missed a few which have been deleted), but a few observations:

1) This book is for charity, for goodness sake - where's the "charity" in some of the comments (on all sides) on this thread?

2) I don't know how things in this business work, but surely it's entirely up to the editors to decide who gets invited and who doesn't? Similarly it's entirely up to the editor which stories get accepted and which don't.

3) This book is about prejudice and how bad it is - seems ironic that we have some prejudices creeping in here too (on all sides - no one person or persons to blame).

4) Des - I hope you didn't mean "leaving the business" as in leaving the small presses. That would be terrible!


Please, friends, lighten up. Just sit back for a minute and take a deep breath. Let's try to celebrate this anthology in the spirit in which it's obviously intended, shall we?
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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 80.4.12.3
Posted on Monday, July 05, 2010 - 11:35 pm:   

Caroline: hopefully in time things will indeed calm down and the proper spirit of this anthology will take precedence; but I doubt that will happen soon, unfortunately.

There are too many tit-for-tat points being scored, and the temptation to score them is too strong, to make the chances of peace probable in the near future.

Anybody here ever read Christie Malry's Own Double-Entry by B.S. Johnson? It's about 'crediting' and 'debiting' insults and injuries: a masterwork of dark comic irony!
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Tom_alaerts (Tom_alaerts)
Username: Tom_alaerts

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 91.176.64.145
Posted on Monday, July 05, 2010 - 11:38 pm:   

Wise words, Caroline !
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Skunsworth (Skunsworth)
Username: Skunsworth

Registered: 05-2009
Posted From: 92.16.77.13
Posted on Monday, July 05, 2010 - 11:39 pm:   

Wasn't that made into a terrible film with that bloke from Lock Stock and Two Smoking Barrels? DIdn't realise it was based on a book - I'll have to keep an eye out for it.

And Caroline: yep. To all points.

S
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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 80.4.12.3
Posted on Monday, July 05, 2010 - 11:41 pm:   

Terrible film? Oops! I have to admit that I enjoyed it a lot. The book, however, is in my top 10 novels ever.
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Frank (Frank)
Username: Frank

Registered: 09-2008
Posted From: 188.146.225.215
Posted on Tuesday, July 06, 2010 - 12:02 am:   

I think Weber made the most succint point of all. Let's just draw a line under it. Nobody is going to come out of this smelling of roses.

It's getting boring.

Honestly, we should take this airing of views and make peace.

I don't know how so much time can be expended on attacking each other. It's like the WWF Royal Rumble here

No, not the World Wildlife Foundation

Honestly, how do the people here who attend all these conventions manage to sit in the same room with each other.

I'm glad I don't attend. I'd be looking over my shoulder every ten minutes.

Either that or cringing inwardly every time I shook somebody's hand as I grimaced my way thrugh a converation with somebody I'd insulted online a few days before.
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Mark_samuels (Mark_samuels)
Username: Mark_samuels

Registered: 04-2010
Posted From: 86.133.23.20
Posted on Tuesday, July 06, 2010 - 12:52 am:   

Frank

At conventions some of us pointedly ignore one another.

Seriously

Mark S.
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 75.4.225.55
Posted on Tuesday, July 06, 2010 - 09:00 am:   

Won't sell, Craig. It needs more explosions. And some gratuitous sex....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hj-_k-7EMmk
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Simon Bestwick (Simon_b)
Username: Simon_b

Registered: 10-2008
Posted From: 86.24.209.217
Posted on Tuesday, July 06, 2010 - 09:06 am:   

How about this?

http://www.kontraband.com/videos/14138/Michael-Bays-Explosions/
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Frank (Frank)
Username: Frank

Registered: 09-2008
Posted From: 85.222.86.72
Posted on Tuesday, July 06, 2010 - 10:05 am:   

Mark - it's a real shame. I thought the point of conventions was the complete opposite.
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Tom_alaerts (Tom_alaerts)
Username: Tom_alaerts

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 194.78.35.185
Posted on Tuesday, July 06, 2010 - 10:56 am:   

Yes, it hast to feel quite peculiar if you must at all costs ignore a number of people and vice versa. Sounds a bit like a small scale version of Mieville's novel "the city and the city".
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Frank (Frank)
Username: Frank

Registered: 09-2008
Posted From: 85.222.86.72
Posted on Tuesday, July 06, 2010 - 11:04 am:   

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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 212.219.233.223
Posted on Tuesday, July 06, 2010 - 11:54 am:   

Frank: I prefer not to go to conventions, both as a point of principle and as a matter of taste; though I have reluctantly been to a few over the years to give a talk or whatever.

But frankly, Frank, I can't stand listening to writers talking about themselves, on and on and on.

I'm now going to say something in Mark Samuels' favour -- though he won't thank me for it, and it won't change my opinion of him as a bigot -- and that's the fact that on the three occasions when I met him (1994, 1995 and 1996) he hardly ever mentioned his own writing. He talked about other writers, history, religion, philosophy and politics, but not about his own writing. Even now I still admire that. It's a preciously rare thing.

There are a dozen other writers I have met who also didn't talk about themselves -- Jeff VanderMeer, Quentin S. Crisp, Joăo Barreiros and Peter Cannon spring instantly to mind, among others. I remain absurdly grateful to them for that. If every writer was like that, I'd go to conventions, but they generally aren't like that. They talk about themselves. Without waiting for an invitation they will even tell you the entire plots of the stories they are currently writing. It's hideous, truly.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.186.67.185
Posted on Tuesday, July 06, 2010 - 12:28 pm:   

I didn't talk about my writing when we met, Rhys. I talked about curry. I did, I did. :-)
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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 212.219.233.223
Posted on Tuesday, July 06, 2010 - 12:54 pm:   

Sorry Gary. I meant to add you too!
You talked about your work and politics. You didn't mention your writing once. That's a fact.

In regard to the earlier topic of 'Tuckerization' I have just completed a new blog post on the very subject. Here it is. Take a look:
http://mantoucan.blogspot.com/

If you can identify yourself on this list, I'll buy you a pint -- at the next convention I go to.
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Frank (Frank)
Username: Frank

Registered: 09-2008
Posted From: 178.182.1.50
Posted on Tuesday, July 06, 2010 - 01:32 pm:   

Rhys - I'm very glad you said that. Having never been to a convention I nevertheless have had suspicions that I wasn't missing very much. I, also, would find it largely embarrassing, even boring to listen to people talk about their 'work'. I don't mind reading about it, even on a messageboard, I'm surely guilty of that myself, but to actually have to stand there and listen would propel me to the bar with manic speed.

I admire and respect a lot of writers, but I'm not sure I want to be subjected to hearing the in's and out's of whatever it is they are currently working on, regardless of how much I like their work.

I prefer to indulge in talk on books and movies, writers, etc, just as you pointed out Mark did. This in itself says a lot, clarifies or debunks previous presumptions, and makes for far more interesting conversation.

Years ago when I attended a Christmas party at Ramsey's house I purposefully avoided asking any questions of the landlord with regard to his work. One, because I'm sure he wouldn't have wanted some wide-eyed fan blabbering on about this and that, and two, because those kind of questions are the 'stuff' of book-signings, IF, such a book-signing allows for this.

I was greatly encouraged that Ramsey preferred to talk about all manner of movies with me, books, etc, and invited me to check-out his new sound system for the TV!

So, Rhys, if I ever do attend a convention I hope it will be an event of fun and enjoyment, and if you're there, I'll buy you a pint and implore you to NOT talk about yourself, squire.
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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 212.219.233.223
Posted on Tuesday, July 06, 2010 - 01:38 pm:   

I never talk about myself, Frank. Most of my friends don't even know that I'm a writer. I've never told them, you see.
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Mark_samuels (Mark_samuels)
Username: Mark_samuels

Registered: 04-2010
Posted From: 86.133.23.20
Posted on Tuesday, July 06, 2010 - 01:58 pm:   

I'm reminded of Lovecraft's "The Battle That Ended the Century".



Apart from some lovely old die-hards there are hardly any fans left, Rhys. Which isn't surprising since even the worst of bumblers can set themselves up as a writer nowadays. They don't have to work their way up before they gain attention; it can all be had online via social networking.

There's little to no quality control anymore. It's all image. It's like the "Big Brother" TV show, watched by the sort of people whose ambition in life is to be on the show. The contestants are all terrified of being voted off and not being loved...

Mark S.
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Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey)
Username: Ramsey

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 195.93.21.74
Posted on Tuesday, July 06, 2010 - 02:03 pm:   

I have to say my experience of conventions is quite different, Frank, though there is an American tendency to turn panels into vehicles for self-promotion (participants bring their work to display on them). On the other hand, I certainly don't think being a writer is anything to be ashamed of or secretive about, and my friends know what I do. Why shouldn't they?
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Jonathan (Jonathan)
Username: Jonathan

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 91.143.178.131
Posted on Tuesday, July 06, 2010 - 02:13 pm:   

Indeed, with dwindling marketing budgets, writers really do have to self-promote and the internet and social networking sites have helped with this immensely.

I've always found conventions to be good fun and, if you can't talk about writing at a convention dedicated to writing and writers where can you? Also, I've usually found the conversation at conventions very varied. Rarely do I meet writers who just splurge their ego all over me... erm, if you see what I mean. Most writers I meet are lovely people just trying to get on with doing what they love. This goes for 'established' names and small press folk alike.

There are indeed fans out there, but things like Fantasycon - which I love - are not fan events, they're very much writer-lead and writer-centric. Fan events tend to be more about selling actual books. For example, at the SFX Weekender in Camber Sands we sold hundreds of books, but if we set up a stall at Fantasycon or something like Eastercon, say, we hardly sell any.

As far as I can see, the genre is actually as vibrant and exciting as it's ever been. I still read new horror that impresses me, along with new SF and fantasy; and I seek to publish books that excite me personally while trying to push the market with material that will hopefully make people sit up and pay attention. I also still very much read and monitor the small and independent presses, as there's so much vibrant stuff coming from there it's a great pool to dip into. I really think that there is room for us all in the genre and the idea that it's restricted or hostile in anyway, I just haven't found to be true. At the end of the day it's what you make it. You can sit and build yourself an enclave, but really what you need to do is bash the walls down and see the marvelous variety and voices that there are to behold.
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Hubert (Hubert)
Username: Hubert

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 78.22.234.38
Posted on Tuesday, July 06, 2010 - 02:14 pm:   

I remember a rather well-known American Lovecraft authority who was obviously in need of money, for he used one of the more serious panels at NecronomiCON 2 or 3 as a springboard to peddle an old encyclopedia, some rare stamps and even a coin collection!
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Mark_samuels (Mark_samuels)
Username: Mark_samuels

Registered: 04-2010
Posted From: 86.133.23.20
Posted on Tuesday, July 06, 2010 - 02:33 pm:   

If you want to know how me and Q deal with fans, watch these, in order:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sl-3w2jWGBc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoE3hIUuF8c

Mark S.
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.132.169.138
Posted on Tuesday, July 06, 2010 - 05:46 pm:   

Er, I had this plan on how to stop this scrap today but now it looks like it's, um, gone...

This place drives me crazy.
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 147.252.230.148
Posted on Tuesday, July 06, 2010 - 05:50 pm:   

I love "scrap", Tony. It's Beano terminology. ("Scarper! It's the parkie!")
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.132.169.138
Posted on Tuesday, July 06, 2010 - 05:50 pm:   

And can someone let poor bloody Des know things are all sorted? You lot have realy upset him.
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.132.169.138
Posted on Tuesday, July 06, 2010 - 05:51 pm:   

Proto - are we talking? Did you see my shit apology on the Who thread? I thought you'd been ignoring it. :-(
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Mick Curtis (Mick)
Username: Mick

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.182.231.124
Posted on Tuesday, July 06, 2010 - 06:25 pm:   

"Scarper! It's the parkie!"

Cheers Proto - you made me laugh out loud at that!
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 147.252.230.148
Posted on Tuesday, July 06, 2010 - 06:30 pm:   

Eh? Are we not talking?

What shit apology? And for what?

Eh?

Seriously: "eh?"
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.132.169.138
Posted on Tuesday, July 06, 2010 - 07:24 pm:   

Er, you don't remember my 'I want to take this chance to tell everyone I know to fuck off' email? I was at a very low ebb. I got yours after.
I had this weird inkling, a sort of relief, that you'd taken it as a joke, but then couldn't be sure and was too embarrassed to ask. It was a horrible time.
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.132.169.138
Posted on Tuesday, July 06, 2010 - 07:25 pm:   

BTW regarding this thread; After much mulling it over, I've realised the problem; everyone here is right.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.186.67.185
Posted on Tuesday, July 06, 2010 - 07:35 pm:   

God bless relativity! Long may it befuddle us all!
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.132.169.138
Posted on Tuesday, July 06, 2010 - 07:43 pm:   

(Hey Gary - have you had any rumbles about All Hallows? There's a story of mine in it I really like but it mightn't be out in at least two years. Any advice/info? I feel really sad about it but hate to ask B&C...)
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.186.67.185
Posted on Tuesday, July 06, 2010 - 09:04 pm:   

Not sure why you think I'd know anything about it, old mate. Last I heard the latest issue was still in preparation.
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Carolinec (Carolinec)
Username: Carolinec

Registered: 06-2009
Posted From: 82.38.75.85
Posted on Tuesday, July 06, 2010 - 10:41 pm:   

>>And can someone let poor bloody Des know things are all sorted? You lot have realy upset him.<<

Er, I'd email him myself, Tony, but I don't know the ins and outs of the arguments and how it all really came to be sorted, so I'm not really the best person to do so. Is someone else emailing him? I'd hate him to be upset by all this. His reason for getting involved seemed to be to try to say to Mark that he (ie. Mark) wasn't alone. He was trying to be a peacemaker, but it kind of backfired on him from what I can see.

Is anyone contacting him to say "please come back to us"?
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 78.152.209.97
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2010 - 01:22 am:   

"Er, you don't remember my 'I want to take this chance to tell everyone I know to fuck off' email? I was at a very low ebb. I got yours after."

Now I'm in a Charlie Kaufman movie. I don't remember this at all.
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 78.152.209.97
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2010 - 01:27 am:   

Remember when that huge tropical crab (bright emergency orange, it was) caused all that bother on the motorways? Its weakness was that it could only walk along lines of longitude. That was a close one.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.186.67.185
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2010 - 08:06 am:   

I've spoken to Des and made it clear how valued he is here.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.186.67.185
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2010 - 08:07 am:   

This is several days ago, when he emailed me to delete his account, alas.
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Simon Bestwick (Simon_b)
Username: Simon_b

Registered: 10-2008
Posted From: 86.24.209.217
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2010 - 09:31 am:   

This from Des, today:

"I have barred myself from posting on RCMB and some other forums. I am having a rest from most forums while I work on distributing Null Immortalis etc. I don't think I was doing that thread or myself any good. I hope everything works out for everyone. I intend to buy the anthology and real-time review and, of course, generally support it."

Bless him. I hope he comes back to us in due course. We'd be a lot poorer without him.
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Allybird (Allybird)
Username: Allybird

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 88.104.142.59
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2010 - 10:03 am:   

Indeed it would. Joel sent an email to Des last week which Des didn't receive. Unfortunately because that email wasn't received a misunderstanding took place. Joel talked to Des about it all last night.
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Allybird (Allybird)
Username: Allybird

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 88.104.142.59
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2010 - 10:04 am:   

Should have said Indeed we would...
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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 80.4.12.3
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2010 - 10:25 am:   

To me the entire case is a black and white moral issue. An attempt has been made to sabotage and derail a charity anthology. That's the big picture, OK? Nobody can dance their way out of that simple fact.

Maybe I'm old fashioned but the people involved in attempting this act of attempted sabotage are "evil". I can perfectly understand why Fascists would want to do such a thing, but this particular act of sabotage has been perpetrated by writers claiming that they wanted to be part of the good cause -- and because they were unable to be part of the good cause they attempted to derail that cause!!!?

That's a pretty fucking sick irony. Putting ego before ethics.

I know he's a cuddly puppy who is untouchable, but personally I found Des's behaviour self-centred, petty and egotistical in the extreme. He wasn't trying to be a peacemaker; he was trying to get his next fix of reassurance.

Morality must always come before ego. Wake up people.

I would willingly drop my own story from this project if such an action would improve sales. That's my basic moral duty.

Do your basic moral duty. It's not hard.

But like I said, I'm old fashioned.
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 217.37.199.45
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2010 - 10:40 am:   

Rhys, I think you're reading a lot more negativity into Des's stance than was there. There have been disagreements which are regrettable. I've been in touch with Des and he's OK, and I'm certain of his goodwill.

We need to leave these matters behind now and move on to the positive, as you have been doing very helpfully over the last few days.

Peace, everyone.
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2010 - 10:41 am:   

Amen to that...
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.143.133.63
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2010 - 10:48 am:   

Lord, if there was a big red button that would remove the internet from our lives I'd press it without a minute's hesitation...
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2010 - 11:08 am:   

It's not the Internet, Tony, it's how people seem to lose all sense of perspective when "chatting" online. Like text messaging, it's a very limited and unsubtle form of communicating emotions - so should be treated as no more than a practical tool for expressing calm opinions, sharing information and keeping in touch with like-minded individuals who aren't physically close.

I always strive to keep it removed from what really matters in my life as all a load of old guff, at the end of the day...
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.143.133.63
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2010 - 11:17 am:   

I just don't feel my mind is ever free from it. Even when not on it I'm thinking about it, or my phone. I'm never here and now in the way I used to be.
But I do think the net brings out the worst in us.
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.143.133.63
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2010 - 11:18 am:   

Ok, a big red button that removes all knobheads then.
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Weber (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 194.176.105.55
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2010 - 11:23 am:   

Don't press that one, I think I'd probably vanish if you did that.
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Simon Bestwick (Simon_b)
Username: Simon_b

Registered: 10-2008
Posted From: 86.24.209.217
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2010 - 11:26 am:   

Tony, I'm often inclined to agree. The internet is a tool. But so, sadly, are some of its users.

Writers are probably the last people who should be let loose on it. I suspect most writers are obsessive-compulsive, or borderline cases. Or otherwise neurotic (if we're lucky- if not, psychotic.) As an old tutor of mine said back in my acting days, 'I think you've got to be a bit loopy if you want to be an actor.' 'Writer' would be just as apt...

Stevie's comment above is right on the money. But so's yours- it affects how you think, how you respond. How many people who would have channelled their anger over something into writing a story (and therefore producing an artefact of some potential value/pleasure to someone else) end up raving about it on a message board instead, making dicks of themselves in full view of the congregation and losing friends/potential employers?

The whole point of this anthology is that it should be read by people who don't normally read horror/weird fiction. Who don't like it, or who think they don't because they only examples they've seen of it have been the worst and most embarrassing shite. And if they do hear about it, and look for it online, they'll find this thread, which resembles a cross between a slow-motion train wreck and the three-ring circus from hell. Great, eh?
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.143.133.63
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2010 - 11:26 am:   

:-)
And meself, sadly.
:-(
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Simon Bestwick (Simon_b)
Username: Simon_b

Registered: 10-2008
Posted From: 86.24.209.217
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2010 - 11:27 am:   

Sorry, our posts crossed, Tony. I was talking about your earlier posts re the internet and its influence. Not the knobheads button. Although that's a nice thought...
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.143.133.63
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2010 - 11:30 am:   

Er, we crossed threads!
But yeah, writers are often borderline neurotic, have a few more discrepancies in their chit than most. Addictive, doubting, searching, sensitive - all things the net can inflate and pop at its whim.
That's the thing; once upon a time we wrote for 'the audience'. Now, 9 times out of 10, I bet we write for 'us'.
:-(
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.143.133.63
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2010 - 11:31 am:   

Criss cross!
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Frank (Frank)
Username: Frank

Registered: 09-2008
Posted From: 85.222.86.72
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2010 - 11:31 am:   

That would be 90% of this board at one time or another

Take a look at this list:

Ally,
Rhys,
Joel,
Tony,
Prof,
Zed,
Simon K,
Simon B,
Des,
Mark,
Jonathan,
Kate,
Lord Probert,
Steve B,

These are the people who post on here regularly, each one of them a writer. That's a lot talent. (Apologies to anyone I've missed off, or those that post irregularly).

Now why don't 'you' take that talent and put out an anthology? And I don't mean an anthology to assuage ego, or even to mend bridges, but one which showcases the potential that exists here.

Has it been talked about before? Sure, many times. BUT, wouldn't it be great if all of these great writers got together for something that would be a great advertisement for the genre?

Because the way things are going at the moment Ramsey's message-board is becoming the epitome of everything that is wrong with the internet.

Why not take all of this collective wealth, experienced talented writers, upcoming new writers, and produce something which will truly shine.

More words are wasted arguing here, than employed in the construction of fiction.
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.143.133.63
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2010 - 11:34 am:   

I brought this up ages ago; it never led to a book, but all the tales we came up with eventually found print...(or mine was going to till the book folded :-( )
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.143.133.63
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2010 - 11:36 am:   

And imagine; everyone we know buying a copy. ;)
This isn't the worst place on the net, just the odd thread. And just this one at the moment, to be honest. Gotta count blessings.
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 217.37.199.45
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2010 - 11:37 am:   

Aren't books supposed to fold?

Oh, I see what you mean.
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.143.133.63
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2010 - 11:45 am:   

Er, yes Proto. Seems I imagined that email too, and your reply.
Hurrah!
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2010 - 11:50 am:   

The internet is a tool. But so, sadly, are some of its users.

That's a great line! Must remember it...
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Frank (Frank)
Username: Frank

Registered: 09-2008
Posted From: 85.222.86.72
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2010 - 11:53 am:   

That's the problem with the internet and message-boards (sometimes), our perception is diluted, we assume one person meant one thing, when sometimes they could mean a completely different thing altogether. OR, we build up a picture of somebody which isn't accurate, or at worst downright off the mark.

Then again, sometimes the assault of language taken and used directly, can sometimes leaves us no doubt as to what somebody means. Perhaps this allows us to vent far more than we would in the real world. I mean, how many of us would actually dare to say some of the things we have said here, face to face.

Most of us, I assume, wouldn't. Well, except me, of course...I'm a ratty rat-like terrier dog in person...facially as well as temperamentally.
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Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2010 - 12:17 pm:   

That's why I have a problem with people venting their spleens online in text. They can't see the effect it is having on the person it is aimed at and a lot of the time they don't appear to care. It creates a false barrier between real people, a deceptive sense of removal, that one should always be conscious of is not really there... words do hurt and should never be used without full consideration of the possible consequences. Here endeth the sermon lol.
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Jonathan (Jonathan)
Username: Jonathan

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 91.143.178.131
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2010 - 12:33 pm:   

Amen brother.
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 109.79.58.95
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2010 - 12:38 pm:   

"Er, yes Proto. Seems I imagined that email too, and your reply. Hurrah!"

This is like starring in someone else's dream. What did I say?
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.143.133.63
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2010 - 12:45 pm:   

I said 'eff off' to you and Albie for some imagined slight (actually Albie's wasn't imagined), then you emailed me back with this 'fuck off' in the middle of an exam type thingie.
I'm risking things being not put back to normal here, aren't I?
I feel like PKD.
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Hubert (Hubert)
Username: Hubert

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 78.22.234.38
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2010 - 01:11 pm:   

Because the way things are going at the moment Ramsey's message-board is becoming the epitome of everything that is wrong with the internet.

I don't agree. A bit of controversy is healthy and adds spice to the conversation.
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Jonathan (Jonathan)
Username: Jonathan

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 91.143.178.131
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2010 - 01:13 pm:   

There's controversy and then there's... well whatever's been happening on this thread.
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 217.37.199.45
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2010 - 01:23 pm:   

Indeed. Controversy is "So I see my learned friend considers Shiel a more accomplished fantasist than Hodgson. I would like to point out to him the error of his ways..."

Though such discussions can get pretty mean in themselves. I recall a superb exchange in an academic journal from my student days that had Professor Feyerabend saying to Professor Gellner: "Nice point – but I wish you'd read my book a little more carefully or got someone to explain it to you."
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Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.143.133.63
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2010 - 01:24 pm:   

It was meanness not controversy. Personal stuff. Some people to me have been a little tarnished.
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Jonathan (Jonathan)
Username: Jonathan

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 91.143.178.131
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2010 - 01:27 pm:   

Yes, some of the conversation has reminded me of the Historian characters from Baddiel & Newman.

From what it's worth - life's too short to build up grudges in the small and independent presses. It's not like anyone is doing it for the fortune or the glory. It's all about the love, as far as I can see.

Well it is with me, and I'm certainly not in it for the fortune. (;
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Carolinec (Carolinec)
Username: Carolinec

Registered: 06-2009
Posted From: 82.38.75.85
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2010 - 01:55 pm:   

Rhys said:
"I know he's a cuddly puppy who is untouchable, but personally I found Des's behaviour self-centred, petty and egotistical in the extreme. He wasn't trying to be a peacemaker; he was trying to get his next fix of reassurance."

OK, I know I usually try to calm down a bit before I type something online but your statement above, Rhys, is utter crap. I probably shouldn't be trying to understand what goes on in Des' head, but from my reading of the situation he was trying to diffuse the situation by empathising with (but definitely not siding with) Mark. You (and others?) are reading far too much into it, and in doing so you've alienated and upset one of the genre's most selfless and helpful people. I hope you'll rethink your words, perhaps apologise if necessary, and welcome him back.

Try taking heed of Stevie's words here:
"That's why I have a problem with people venting their spleens online in text. They can't see the effect it is having on the person it is aimed at and a lot of the time they don't appear to care. It creates a false barrier between real people, a deceptive sense of removal, that one should always be conscious of is not really there... words do hurt and should never be used without full consideration of the possible consequences."
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Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus)
Username: Rhysaurus

Registered: 01-2010
Posted From: 212.219.233.223
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2010 - 02:14 pm:   

Caroline, you're completely in the wrong. But I'm not going to argue about it here. Send me your email and I'll send you my answer privately.

Four years ago I called Des an "egotist" and he broke off all contact with me for more than a year. I can't remember the exact length of time, it might have been two years. I apologised to him for that a few weeks ago. But I'm not apologising again just for stating an obvious fact.

I get called an egotist (and far worse) all the time. Do I complain? No I don't. Because I am an egotist, so there's nothing to complain about. If someone calls me an egotist they are in the right. The same applies to Des.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 129.11.76.230
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2010 - 02:50 pm:   

Frank, regarding your 11:31 post, check out my anthology Where The Heart Is. It includes almost everyone on your list of potential contributors. And most of those who aren't in the book were asked.

http://www.grayfriarpress.com/catalogue/whereheart.html
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Jonathan (Jonathan)
Username: Jonathan

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 91.143.178.131
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2010 - 02:52 pm:   

Yus, Mr GF did ask me, but my high-falutin' celeb lifestyle prohibited me contributing. I was too busy feasting on gold wrapped quails while riding titantium swans on a sea of liquid money.

Or whatever it us evil big-shot publishers are supposed to do for thrills.
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 129.11.76.230
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2010 - 02:59 pm:   

I thought the request didn't get as far as your office, Jon. Didn't your naked Ł45-an-hour PA call in MI5 to get it checked for Anthrax? And wasn't it considered a borderline case and therefore not worth the risk?
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Tom_alaerts (Tom_alaerts)
Username: Tom_alaerts

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 194.78.35.185
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2010 - 03:00 pm:   

In general, whenever you post something, especially something abrasive, always keep in mind that the internet never forgets...
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Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 129.11.76.230
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2010 - 03:01 pm:   

Lord P was similarly indisposed. I believe he was playing bowls with the Bishop of Bath and Wells.

(Funny thing is, that's probably true.)
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Allybird (Allybird)
Username: Allybird

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 88.104.142.59
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2010 - 03:07 pm:   

'Lord P was similarly indisposed. I believe he was playing bowls with the Bishop of Bath and Wells.

(Funny thing is, that's probably true.)'

I'll bet it is!
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Jonathan (Jonathan)
Username: Jonathan

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 91.143.178.131
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2010 - 03:15 pm:   

Ah, but GF... I know all. I knew of your request, even before you thought of it.
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Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 137.191.224.102
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2010 - 04:06 pm:   

"I said 'eff off' to you and Albie for some imagined slight (actually Albie's wasn't imagined), then you emailed me back with this 'fuck off' in the middle of an exam type thingie.
I'm risking things being not put back to normal here, aren't I?
I feel like PKD."

Oh yeah, I remember that. That was my exam in which 100% of the marks were allocated to a section that just said "eff off". It wasn't even a question. Oh yeah, forget about that.
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 75.4.250.132
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2010 - 04:26 pm:   

I say we all just go back to bashing Weber. This is what happens, you see, when people "experiment," when they get frisky and try to branch out and bash others. Best to say safe at home, and when the need arises, resist all temptation, and settle for - bashing Weber.
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Tom_alaerts (Tom_alaerts)
Username: Tom_alaerts

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 194.78.35.185
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2010 - 04:30 pm:   

Craig, unless you talk about your movie preferences, then we can't help but bashing you !
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Carolinec (Carolinec)
Username: Carolinec

Registered: 06-2009
Posted From: 82.38.75.85
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2010 - 04:52 pm:   

>>Caroline, you're completely in the wrong. But I'm not going to argue about it here. Send me your email and I'll send you my answer privately.<<

Fair enough. I'm afraid I don't know your email address, Rhys, but you can contact me on callag at blueyonder dot co dot uk (obviously in proper email address format).

I don't want to actually *argue* anyway - I'm not the arguing kind - but I just wanted to say my piece to right what I consider to be a wrong. As the alleged "wrong" was done here in public, then my comment had to be done here in public too. But by all means email me your comments if you like.

BTW I think I used totally the wrong word in my little rant further up the thread - instead of "diffuse" I think it should have been "defuse"!
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Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 75.4.250.132
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2010 - 04:56 pm:   

How about this? In honor of this anthology, I'm going to now forbid Tom any personal views that are not completely vetted by me first. This will go on for a period of, oh... my whim shall decide.

And in the meantime, I'll just keep bashing Weber.

... Hey, I'm starting to like this fascism thing! Fascism is hella hot!
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Hubert (Hubert)
Username: Hubert

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 78.22.234.38
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2010 - 05:00 pm:   

The plot thickens . . .
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Weber (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 194.176.105.55
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2010 - 05:09 pm:   

He's not bashing me. His local bishop is Bishop Weber. What he's doing is bashing his bisop in public and he's going to be arrested.
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Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 217.37.199.45
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2010 - 05:48 pm:   

The boys are back in town. (Sigh of relief.)
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Frank (Frank)
Username: Frank

Registered: 09-2008
Posted From: 85.222.86.72
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2010 - 08:48 pm:   

Sigh of relief? Things must be bad then
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Steve Bacon (Stevebacon)
Username: Stevebacon

Registered: 09-2008
Posted From: 90.204.111.249
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2010 - 09:45 pm:   

Rhys, I have to agree with Caroline's comments on this one. I don't know you personally, although I've read and enjoyed your work, but your conduct on this thread seems strange. Joel and Ally's discomfort is clear, and they've done their best to move on with things. Your behaviour, on the other hand, makes you sound almost gleeful. I've met Des only once, though we've exchanged many emails over the past few years, and he's never come across as anything less than approachable and highly professional.

I suspect your enjoyment may have more to do with your fued with Mark Samuels. If that's the case, mate, think about the feelings of other people, won't you? You might not care if you're criticised in such a way, but not everyone is that desensitised.
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Carolinec (Carolinec)
Username: Carolinec

Registered: 06-2009
Posted From: 82.38.75.85
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2010 - 10:15 pm:   

So, let me see if I can understand this. Ally's had a feud with Mark S. Rhys, too, has had a feud with Mark - and has a "history" with Des also (neither of which I knew about until now). It's a strange old business (ie. the genre/small presses) you guys work in, isn't it?

Anyway, ditto what Steve says. I doubt if Des'll be reading this thread now, but if he does he'll know he's well thought-of and respected by most people here. Hopefully, he'll be back after a break.
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Mick Curtis (Mick)
Username: Mick

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.182.231.124
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2010 - 11:38 pm:   

It's a strange old business

At the risk of sounding like Esther Rantzen, I guess that's life. And people.
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