Gun man Log Out | Topics | Search
Moderators | Edit Profile

RAMSEY CAMPBELL » Discussion » Gun man « Previous Next »

Author Message
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.143.131.166
Posted on Thursday, July 08, 2010 - 04:09 pm:   

Is it me or is this guy on the loose becoming sort of Jason-like? He just needs a mask. To my shame I'm finding his roaming the countryside a bit exciting. Just a little, you understand, in the compartment marked 'ideas'.

They were interviewing his neighbours today. Apparently he's another lovely man who used to cut old lady's hedges for them for nothing, and is by all accounts making his way 'to the places he used to be happiest, his childhood haunts'. It might sound mad, but I find this strangely moving...
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 195.166.117.210
Posted on Thursday, July 08, 2010 - 04:17 pm:   

Er, righto...
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Paul_finch (Paul_finch)
Username: Paul_finch

Registered: 11-2009
Posted From: 92.9.132.151
Posted on Thursday, July 08, 2010 - 04:25 pm:   

I'm finding these gunmen roaming the country very scary and extremely distressing.

You've got to feel a little for someone who is so disenfranchised that they think their only solution is to get a gun and starting killing innocent people ... but to me that's also the ultimate example of blaming others for what may be your own failings.

When I think of all the people I know suffering terrible anguish - losing loved ones, dying with cancer, etc - and doing it with dignity and courage, I feel considerably less sorry for these crazed individuals.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Paul_finch (Paul_finch)
Username: Paul_finch

Registered: 11-2009
Posted From: 92.9.132.151
Posted on Thursday, July 08, 2010 - 04:28 pm:   

To add to that note, this latest incident reminds me of a story I had published last year called MEN OF OLD. It kind of makes me wish I hadn't written it.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.143.131.166
Posted on Thursday, July 08, 2010 - 04:30 pm:   

I do agree you know. It's just that I'm at a bit of a point where life seems very odd and awkward and unreal. I think those blokes have gone a bit further into that territory, but I can still see them.
I dunno - I lead a very sheltered life. I think of people almost in purely fictional terms.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.143.131.166
Posted on Thursday, July 08, 2010 - 04:36 pm:   

Sorry folks - I think I've gone mad.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Craig (Craig)
Username: Craig

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 75.4.243.21
Posted on Thursday, July 08, 2010 - 04:39 pm:   

Isn't there an infamous/legendary case of some Englishman, some time in the, what, 1500's or so... and he was the exact equivalent of today's madman, he flipped out for absolutely no reason, grabbed a sword, hacked his family up, and then went around hacking others at random?... I could swear I read about that somewhere....
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Paul_finch (Paul_finch)
Username: Paul_finch

Registered: 11-2009
Posted From: 92.9.132.151
Posted on Thursday, July 08, 2010 - 04:49 pm:   

If you look through local histories, Craig, you'll find many instances of mass murder - not just spree killings like this, but what you'd also call sexually motivated serial murder, which go way back into the past.

There was once a belief that the Victorian age, i.e. Jack the Ripper, gave birth to the phenomenon of sadistic sex crime. But that doesn't hold true for me. Few public records are available which date from earlier than The Newgate Calendar, so many armchair criminologists seemed to make the assumption that major crime sprees just didn't happen in earlier eras. Folk were too busy struggling to survive to waste time trying to make their sexual fantasies real. Yet even my amateurish trawlings through folklore manuals have shown that serial killers are not a new phenomenon at all.

It's difficult to ascertain the absolute facts of course, but there are numerous references, from medieval times onwards, to weird individuals who butchered many victims for no more reason than the pleasure it supposedly gave them.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Carolinec (Carolinec)
Username: Carolinec

Registered: 06-2009
Posted From: 82.38.75.85
Posted on Thursday, July 08, 2010 - 05:13 pm:   

And have you noticed how it's almost always men who do these kinds of things, not women? Of course, I know it's not *exclusively* men. There certainly have been serial killing/sex offending women too - but often when it's a duo doing the crimes, eg. Fred and Rosemary West.

Is this a male aggression thing, I wonder? Is it anything to do with many men being unable to express their emotions in a more acceptable fashion?
(and have I opened up a can of worms with those questions too, I wonder?)

By the way, Tony, re your comment:
"I think of people almost in purely fictional terms."
Am I real or just a figment of your writer's imagination?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Mick Curtis (Mick)
Username: Mick

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.182.231.124
Posted on Thursday, July 08, 2010 - 05:17 pm:   

"Lizzie Borden took an axe..."
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 194.32.31.1
Posted on Thursday, July 08, 2010 - 05:40 pm:   

It's all to do with testosterone and the alpha male drive, in this case turned to wanton death and destruction in the face of the life, family and business this bloke had created being taken away from him. I'm finding the whole story quite tragic... for him and his victims (two premeditated, the third an impulsive act of blind rage). I hope they take him alive if he hasn't already put a bullet through his brain in some lonely forest glade.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Paul_finch (Paul_finch)
Username: Paul_finch

Registered: 11-2009
Posted From: 92.9.132.151
Posted on Thursday, July 08, 2010 - 06:52 pm:   

There have been some cases where women have indulged in 'macho' type serial murders - Aileen Wuornos, for example - but that's the exception rather than the rule. Most female mass killers that I know about have tended to be poisoners, or what used to be called 'baby farmers', i.e. murderers of tiny children.

There may be all sorts of things we can say about male murderers wanting to unload sexual tension etc, but I think ease and opportunity comes into it too. It's simply easier for a woman to murder by poison than it is for her to strangle someone.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 89.19.82.235
Posted on Friday, July 09, 2010 - 01:01 am:   

Women tend to destroy themselves by imploding, men by exploding.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.170.177.56
Posted on Friday, July 09, 2010 - 07:38 am:   

There was a pic of him in the Sun yesterday, as a baby. 'Cute but clenching his fists(which he was)' was the caption read, implying he was already evil.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.170.177.56
Posted on Friday, July 09, 2010 - 07:40 am:   

Watching him age in these pics was heartbreaking, watching the light go out of his eyes. And he was a cute kid.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.170.177.56
Posted on Friday, July 09, 2010 - 07:45 am:   

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/picturegalleries/uknews/7874843/In-pictures-Poli ce-hunt-for-gunman-Raoul-Moat-from-Newcastle.html
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch)
Username: Mark_lynch

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 217.171.129.70
Posted on Friday, July 09, 2010 - 07:47 am:   

Sky News are doing a near-as-dammit live manhunt movie documentary if you put the channel on. They do love a bit of the old sensationalism, don't they?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 109.79.67.228
Posted on Friday, July 09, 2010 - 10:51 am:   

As long as we use the word "evil" we'll never progress in reducing destructive behaviour in society. If someone really cares about victims and potential future victims, then understanding our way out is the only valid option.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 217.35.255.146
Posted on Saturday, July 10, 2010 - 08:13 am:   

He's dead. I was hoping he wouldn't be, but he is.
But what was this about them trying to talk him down with the offer of a Chicken dinner handed over by by Gazza? Were they trying to finish him off?

'I have no father', he was heard to call out. Simple stuff, but deep as it gets I suppose.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.180.210.117
Posted on Saturday, July 10, 2010 - 08:28 am:   

Paul: Men of Old was the first thing I thought of when I heard about this case.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 217.35.255.146
Posted on Saturday, July 10, 2010 - 09:11 am:   

'No-one cares about me.'
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 109.79.125.234
Posted on Saturday, July 10, 2010 - 10:10 am:   

TV reporters adding a tinge of sadness to their voice is irritating. They're sad they have to find something to fill more news cycles, I suppose. There just isn't 24 hours of news in a day.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Gcw (Gcw)
Username: Gcw

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.158.238.131
Posted on Saturday, July 10, 2010 - 10:53 am:   

"Sky News are doing a near-as-dammit live manhunt movie documentary if you put the channel on. They do love a bit of the old sensationalism, don't they?"

I detest Sky 'news' they are cynical, Premier league bloated bullshit. Channel 4 & BBC are far superior in their reporting.

gcw
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 109.79.6.141
Posted on Saturday, July 10, 2010 - 11:37 am:   

Peter Serafinowicz called says that Sky news looks like Tesco news.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Gcw (Gcw)
Username: Gcw

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.158.238.131
Posted on Saturday, July 10, 2010 - 12:04 pm:   

He's right. It's awful, dumbed down rubbish, with blonde airhead presenters, Eamonn Holmes and some monster called Chris Skudder...

gcw
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 82.17.252.126
Posted on Saturday, July 10, 2010 - 01:30 pm:   

BBC News 24 is just about the only channel I watch every day.

Was really sorry to hear how this story ended but at least the guy isn't suffering anymore and didn't harm anyone else. I suspect, after his initial rage had died down, that he must have went through mental hell all those days. For once, the reports of him being just an ordinary guy who would have done anything for his neighbours ring true... a real shame.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.131.109.205
Posted on Sunday, July 11, 2010 - 08:14 am:   

:-(
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/4/20100710/tuk-uncle-could-have-stopped-moat-death-dba1 618.html
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Weber (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 194.176.105.55
Posted on Monday, July 12, 2010 - 10:13 am:   

Worst thing about this story is this morning's headlines. One of them states that his daughter doesn't know he's dead.

She will now won't she! Big pic of her dad on the front of the Mirror with "THANK GOD HE'S DEAD" as the full page banner headline.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Paul_finch (Paul_finch)
Username: Paul_finch

Registered: 11-2009
Posted From: 92.9.132.151
Posted on Monday, July 12, 2010 - 10:58 am:   

Just seen an interview with his ex-partner, and she doesn't seem remotely concerned that he's dead. Just says that now she's free to start a new life without being oppressed all the time.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 195.166.117.210
Posted on Monday, July 12, 2010 - 11:07 am:   

I'm just thankful the psycho killed himself before anyone else got hurt. I know people like him very well indeed; he was not an "ordinary guy". He was a violent nutter.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.131.109.71
Posted on Monday, July 12, 2010 - 11:24 am:   

Yeah, he wasn't perfect. But it's tragic a sweet-looking kid morphed into this. I can't go all right wing about it.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.23.15.37
Posted on Monday, July 12, 2010 - 11:35 am:   

Sweet-looking? Was he sweet? Or did he just look it? And what about the mean-looking kids who might not be mean? Is it not tragic then?

Sorry, Tony, I know you probably don't mean anything by that, but I can't do with this knee-jerk reaction the media has to how a person looks as a indice about how tragic the event is. Like, murders are more lamentable if the victim is 'beautiful'.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.131.109.71
Posted on Monday, July 12, 2010 - 11:45 am:   

Um, I wasn't agreeing with them!
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.131.109.71
Posted on Monday, July 12, 2010 - 11:47 am:   

Oh, and it is sad any kid does this in the end. And I maybe didn't mean sweet but rather 'happy', like all would go well for him.

I've just heard about a 17 year old girl who glued an old man's eyes shut and stabbed him slowly to death over a period of days. Why haven't we heard more about her? Funny, isn't it.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.131.109.71
Posted on Monday, July 12, 2010 - 11:51 am:   

Mary Bell got convicted because she looked insolent, her friend got let off because she cried, even though she was apparently just as guilty.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Paul_finch (Paul_finch)
Username: Paul_finch

Registered: 11-2009
Posted From: 92.9.132.151
Posted on Monday, July 12, 2010 - 11:58 am:   

One of the best examples of this was surely Hanratty.

There was a nationwide conviction that he was innocent, fuelled by a newspaper picture in which he looked like a nice, innocent young fella.

The reality was that he was a career criminal, with a long record of violent offences. In addition, later forensic evidence suggested that he was guilty as charged.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.23.15.37
Posted on Monday, July 12, 2010 - 12:29 pm:   

Well, it just shows that we live in a culture which prioritises the visual sense above all others. It wasn't always this way.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 91.110.227.125
Posted on Monday, July 12, 2010 - 01:07 pm:   

Studies have shown that, other things being equal, you are more likely to be acquitted if you are short and/or chubby than if you are tall and/or thin, because the latter is the popular mental image of 'the criminal'.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey)
Username: Ramsey

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 195.93.21.74
Posted on Monday, July 12, 2010 - 01:13 pm:   

I'm with Zed. The romanticisation of this business makes me sympathise more and more with my old friend Poppy's support of capital punishment. And now presumably public money is to be pissed away investigating the behaviour of the police.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 147.252.230.148
Posted on Monday, July 12, 2010 - 01:24 pm:   

Oh dear.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.23.15.37
Posted on Monday, July 12, 2010 - 01:50 pm:   

Here we go again. Can one bunch go to the left and the other to the right.

I'm staying in the middle. There's no fence there, however, and I don't fancy a sit down.

Enjoy . . .
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Allybird (Allybird)
Username: Allybird

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 88.104.142.59
Posted on Monday, July 12, 2010 - 01:51 pm:   

Let's not forget this one...

'Fish was a small, gentle looking man who appeared kind and trusting, yet once alone with his victims.....'

'Albert Fish is known for being one of the most vile pedophiles and killers of all time. After his capture he admitted to molesting over 400 children and tortured and killed several others. Fish was a small, gentle looking man who appeared kind and trusting, yet once alone with his victims, the monster inside him was unleased - a monster so perverse and cruel, his crimes seem unbelievable. He was eventually executed and according to rumors, he turned his own execution into a fantasy of pleasure.'
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey)
Username: Ramsey

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 195.93.21.74
Posted on Monday, July 12, 2010 - 01:54 pm:   

I simply think that by committing an act you have to choose the moral consequences too.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Allybird (Allybird)
Username: Allybird

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 88.104.142.59
Posted on Monday, July 12, 2010 - 02:03 pm:   

Exactly. Everyone has to take responsibility for their own actions.

And there can be massive discrepancies in how one appears/behaves as to how one ultimately acts. And as far as behaviour goes some people show a different face to the world...hiding who they really are.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Allybird (Allybird)
Username: Allybird

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 88.104.142.59
Posted on Monday, July 12, 2010 - 02:06 pm:   

I really wish I had never read the details of what Albert Fish did but unfortunately I can't undo that :>(
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.23.15.37
Posted on Monday, July 12, 2010 - 02:10 pm:   

Responsibility for actions - yes.

Appreciation of context - yes.

Excessive individualist approach to crime - no.

Excessive social structural approach to crime - no.

There. Issue resolved.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 195.166.117.210
Posted on Monday, July 12, 2010 - 02:13 pm:   

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.131.109.71
Posted on Monday, July 12, 2010 - 03:27 pm:   

I feel like I'm in a parallel world where the vikings won!
All I've said is I feel sorry for that boy's life, the way it went. I think that's pretty reasonable, and from what my generation were always taught, a very humane way to look at it. I feel all life is valuable.
I'm glad I'm me, with these views.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.23.15.37
Posted on Monday, July 12, 2010 - 03:37 pm:   

It's one of the sad things I do in life: whenever I look at a kid, I can't help picturing them as adults, how they'll turn out. Same with older folk - I try see in them the kid they used to be, how they once were. Loss of innocence is always the hinge. But sometimes there are adults who still have that innocence (not necessarily to be confused with naivety), and children who have experience stamped all over them (almost always having seen too much, too soon).
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Paul_finch (Paul_finch)
Username: Paul_finch

Registered: 11-2009
Posted From: 92.9.132.151
Posted on Monday, July 12, 2010 - 03:37 pm:   

Ally ... you're bang on about Albert Fish. The details of his crimes are the most sickening I've ever read.

He then became the recipient of a most unusual judgement, one that has never since been repeated in an American court.

After he was convicted, he was sent before a medical board to see if he was sane enough to face electrocution. Usually, the doctors on the board voted one way or the other. In Fish's case, the note they sent back to the court read:

"Insane, but deserves to be electrocuted anyway".

So he was.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Allybird (Allybird)
Username: Allybird

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 88.104.142.59
Posted on Monday, July 12, 2010 - 03:40 pm:   

'Ally ... you're bang on about Albert Fish. The details of his crimes are the most sickening I've ever read.'

I've skipped lunch. Yes, Paul. I think I first heard about him on the telly but have read about him since. I can't quite work out why the parents let him take the little girl to the birthday party. He must have seemed soooo sweet and innocent.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Carolinec (Carolinec)
Username: Carolinec

Registered: 06-2009
Posted From: 82.38.75.85
Posted on Monday, July 12, 2010 - 03:46 pm:   

I think the problem with this Moat case is the fact that it's been played out on TV for everyone to see - like some kind of sick "Big Brother" thing. Terrible press intrusion, I reckon.

It's been a tragedy for all concerned - the victims, Moat and his family. But I don't feel sorry for him. Like Ramsey said: ".. by committing an act you have to choose the moral consequences too."

A bad business all round.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 82.17.252.126
Posted on Monday, July 12, 2010 - 04:18 pm:   

I thought Moat looked a right scary bastard, to be honest, and was judging him by the interviews with neighbours, etc who all seemed to be sticking up for him, and continue to lay flowers where he died!

Not your typical public reaction to a homicidal gun-toting nutcase on the rampage. Even the guy who reported the sighting that finally led to his downfall was interviewed wondering if he had done the right thing. There is a lot of evidence piling up that this guy was an ordinary schmo and a generally nice bloke, liked, respected, and now mourned by all those who knew him... I still wish they had taken him alive.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.23.15.37
Posted on Monday, July 12, 2010 - 04:25 pm:   

But . . . he shot two people dead. Doesn't that, well, tarnish his reputation somewhat?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.131.109.71
Posted on Monday, July 12, 2010 - 04:30 pm:   

Me too, Stephen. I'm shocked at the views of people I thought more rounded to be coming across like those of torch-weilding mob members.
But then we must remember he sounded quite nasty behind closed doors - a monster, his missus says. Maybe their opinions are more accurate.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.131.109.71
Posted on Monday, July 12, 2010 - 04:32 pm:   

I thought he killed one?
Damn - it sounds like I'm trying to justify his actions not understand them.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 195.166.117.210
Posted on Monday, July 12, 2010 - 04:35 pm:   

He shot an on-duty policeman in the face, shot his ex girlfriend in the chest, and shot her current boyfriend dead.

Nice chap. Let's all cry for him.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.23.15.37
Posted on Monday, July 12, 2010 - 04:38 pm:   

Tony, it sounds like you're trying to make excuses for his actions. Well, it sounds as much like that as others on here sound like representatives of a torch-wielding mob.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 82.17.252.126
Posted on Monday, July 12, 2010 - 04:41 pm:   

He certainly became a monster who belonged behind bars for his own safety as well as that of the public. The authorities are totally to blame for what happened in this tragically avoidable case. Why the guy was ever released, when he was openly telling everyone he intended going straight to his ex to kill her, is beyond me. A shameful balls-up by the powers that be, for which heads should roll imo.

I think the fact that Moat stayed in the vicinity, heavily armed and roaming free for a whole week without harming anyone else speaks volumes about his state of mind after the initial burst of violence had died down. The man was like a lost soul devoid of motivation and of no further threat to anyone, including the police... he belonged back behind bars, being helped, rather than dying in a field after a six hour stand-off imho.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.23.15.37
Posted on Monday, July 12, 2010 - 04:43 pm:   

>>>The man was like a lost soul devoid of motivation and of no further threat to anyone

So - and be honest - if you'd chanced upon him while out on a stroll, would you have approached him?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 195.166.117.210
Posted on Monday, July 12, 2010 - 04:45 pm:   

heavily armed and roaming free for a whole week without harming anyone else

But he did rob a chip shop at gunpoint and then threatened to start killing members of the general public, but only after declaring war on the Northumbria Police Force.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 82.17.252.126
Posted on Monday, July 12, 2010 - 04:55 pm:   

I'd have been as scared stiff of the bloke as anyone else, and rightly so, but the police should have made a better job of talking him down - his family should have had a chance to reason with him as the rage that drove him and the urge to kill had obviously long gone by that stage. Basic psychology should have told them that, they are supposed to be the experts after all!
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 195.166.117.210
Posted on Monday, July 12, 2010 - 04:57 pm:   

It wasn't a film, Steve - the police wouldn't have put members of the public in danger by wheeling them out to "reason" with a gun-toting psycho who'd already killed. Imagine the public reaction if they had, and he'd shot one of them...
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.131.109.71
Posted on Monday, July 12, 2010 - 05:00 pm:   

He expressed remorse in his letters, didn't he? I thought he did.
I think it's obvious here that we are all very closed minded, even me perhaps, probably. I feel sorry for this guy because I've felt blind anger and rejection, so it's probable I'll feel that way. Other people feel different. Is this the point where we just realise we have to stop talking about it? It's just brick walls talking.
Like I said, I know my own mind, you know yours. We all choose our roles and stick to them.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Weber (Weber_gregston)
Username: Weber_gregston

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 194.176.105.55
Posted on Monday, July 12, 2010 - 05:01 pm:   

According to at least one paper they did send his best friend over to try try to talk to him.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.131.109.71
Posted on Monday, July 12, 2010 - 05:02 pm:   

The best friend said they didn't let him through.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 82.17.252.126
Posted on Monday, July 12, 2010 - 05:38 pm:   

It would have been worth a try even from a distance by loudhailer or something. I just get the impression the police botched every step of this case right up to the final moments... and two people are dead as a result.

Moat should never have been released in the first place given the threats he was issuing to all and sundry. The police and prison authorities are to blame for the whole sorry mess imo.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 195.166.117.210
Posted on Monday, July 12, 2010 - 05:51 pm:   

So not the guy who did the actual killing? He isn't to blame in any way?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Paul_finch (Paul_finch)
Username: Paul_finch

Registered: 11-2009
Posted From: 92.9.132.151
Posted on Monday, July 12, 2010 - 06:24 pm:   

I'm a bit surprised the police are copping criticism on the news for sending so many armed officers in.

A few weeks ago, when there were no armed officers around, 13 people were murdered in cold blood. I know it's a different man and a different case, but this chap shot three people in unprovoked acts of violence, killing one, blinding another and critically wounding a third (presumably he intended to kill all three).

As an ex-bobby who's faced armed offenders, I can assure you you don't mess around with blokes like this. As well as having a duty to protect the public, you also have a duty to come home to your wife and children at the end of your shift.

If he doesn't go home to his, that may be seen as his fault given that he's the one who went out with a gun in the first place.

Nobody wants these situations to happen. But when they do, they have to be dealt with. And at the end of the day, let's remember - it wasn't a police bullet that ended his life. It was one of his own. Many leading Nazis were seen as cowards for choosing suicide rather than facing the consequences of their crimes. Maybe the same accusation could be levelled at Moat.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.23.15.37
Posted on Monday, July 12, 2010 - 06:36 pm:   

Well, it's the society we live in now: everything is taken to be a consequence of something else and usually it's a State issue. I'm no apologist for the government, but let's face it, these 'loose cannons' pop up all the time. There isn't much anyone can do to stop them unless we want to micro-manage everybody's lives, like in some Big Brother scenario. Which is not to say the authorities might be without fault in this case, but really, Stevie, to say the police and the authorities are to blame to for "the whole sorry mess" is ridiculous.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 82.17.252.126
Posted on Monday, July 12, 2010 - 06:52 pm:   

This time the authorities really are to blame for what happened because they chose to release Moat when he was telling them, and anyone else who would listen, exactly what his intentions were!! If you can't see that as a horrendous lapse of judgement (and that's me being kind) on the part of the prison authorities then I despair.

Yes, Moat was clearly responsible for his murderous actions but he should never have been given the opportunity to act them out in the first place. The guy was clearly deranged, a menace to the public, warned them of his intentions and the people who had the power to keep him in check did nothing! That's why they have to be held culpable in this case imho.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.23.15.37
Posted on Monday, July 12, 2010 - 07:12 pm:   

>>>a lost soul devoid of motivation and of no further threat to anyone

>>>There is a lot of evidence piling up that this guy was an ordinary schmo and a generally nice bloke, liked, respected

>>>The guy was clearly deranged, a menace to the public

>>>Moat was clearly responsible for his murderous actions

These are all stuff you've said above. Are you talking about the same man in each case?!

Are you seriously suggesting that after the violence had been enacted, he switched from murderous psycho to normal harmless bloke?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Carolinec (Carolinec)
Username: Carolinec

Registered: 06-2009
Posted From: 82.38.75.85
Posted on Monday, July 12, 2010 - 07:37 pm:   

Er ... we're not going to have another punch-up on the board are we? *ducks to avoid a punch*

I agree that the prison authorities shouldn't have let him out given the threats he'd made - and that's a situation which happens all too often IMHO.

But I'm wondering how anyone can defend the guy and say things like he was "generally a nice bloke". Maybe I've read different reports to you but I thought he was a steroid abuser with a history of violence who abused his partners behind closed doors? As has been said, he then went out with the intention of killing three people. How can anyone feel sorry for the guy in those circumstances?

Like Paul said, the police aren't going to put members of the public at risk when he had a gun. OK if he'd have been in a situation where they could have been sure he couldn't shoot any anyone then it might have been an option to get friends and family in to help talk him down, but he was out in the open on a riverbank - how could they ensure anyone talking to him wasn't put at risk in that situation?

IMHO it's a shame the police get flak for these kinds of things. Basically, they're damned if they do, and they're damned if they don't.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Carolinec (Carolinec)
Username: Carolinec

Registered: 06-2009
Posted From: 82.38.75.85
Posted on Monday, July 12, 2010 - 07:50 pm:   

BTW I agree with Tony's suggestion that maybe we shouldn't continue talking about this. We've all got different viewpoints, and all are held quite strongly. There's no point in risking another RCMB bust-up again. Peace to everyone - no matter what your views on the matter.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.23.15.37
Posted on Monday, July 12, 2010 - 07:54 pm:   

Bust up? Nowhere near. Just a debate.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.23.15.37
Posted on Monday, July 12, 2010 - 08:30 pm:   

But Stevie does smell.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 82.17.252.126
Posted on Monday, July 12, 2010 - 08:37 pm:   

I mean he appears to have been a fairly ordinary and well liked bloke before his life imploded and he ended up brooding in prison. Going by what the people who knew him are consistently saying and the genuine expressions of grief the local public are displaying for him. It appears he became a ticking timebomb in prison - and a particularly vocal one at that - yet the authorities somehow still deemed him fit to be returned into society. He was mentally ill, they were the professionals charged with protecting the public from him - so whis is more at fault?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 82.17.252.126
Posted on Monday, July 12, 2010 - 08:41 pm:   

Not at the minute, I'm completely bunged up with the cold...
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Paul_finch (Paul_finch)
Username: Paul_finch

Registered: 11-2009
Posted From: 92.9.132.151
Posted on Monday, July 12, 2010 - 08:48 pm:   

Unfortunately, the re-offending rate for parolees is absolutely massive (something alarming like 80%). Many, many men are deemed by the prison authorities to be unfit for release once they've done their time, but still get released out of necessity.

The police are warned all the time to watch certain characters who are back on the streets, but given that they're also watching those who are already out on the street, close surveillance of individual targets is not always possible.

We need to remember that there is a large and thriving underworld of violent criminals out there in society. Countless felons are deemed to be very high risk, but until they've actually committed a crime, or unless you can prove they are conspiring to commit one, you can't really interfere with them.

If in this case, some board of prison psychiatrists has put forward a report in which they voiced a concern that Moat was a specific threat to the public, possibly homicidal, then I agree that there should be an enquiry. But that remains to be seen.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 91.110.225.58
Posted on Monday, July 12, 2010 - 11:50 pm:   

Ramsey, I agree that people must take responsibility for the moral consequences of their actions but that's exactly why I think capital punishment is unconscionable. Killing someone isn't an instrumental act like erasing a stain, it's an act that has moral consequences. Including the possibility that the person executed may later be proven to have been innocent. And more widely, the impact on society of judicial killing: the belief that killing a defenceless person in cold blood may be an act in which there is honour, rationality and justice. I don't think that belief will do much to reduce the murder rate.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 82.17.252.126
Posted on Tuesday, July 13, 2010 - 01:10 am:   

My thoughts exactly... the death penalty is nothing more than legalised revenge and should never be entertained as a viable option by any society that would attempt to call itself civilised. Fudging on this issue only opens the floodgates to institutional mass murder imo.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Protodroid (Protodroid)
Username: Protodroid

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 109.79.44.33
Posted on Tuesday, July 13, 2010 - 01:43 am:   

I've been thinking this recently - there's no such thing as revenge. There's just bringing more pain into the world.

I think killing people when you don't have to is wrong.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Stevie Walsh (Stephenw)
Username: Stephenw

Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 82.17.252.126
Posted on Tuesday, July 13, 2010 - 07:13 am:   

The need for retribution is one of the most primal and easily understandable urges in human nature and one that we must ever need to be vigilant of and protected from both in ourselves as individuals and others as a society.

I know for a fact that if anyone raped and murdered a child of mine I would want to track them down to the ends of the earth and inflict the slowest most horrible death imaginable on them (as in many a Pan Horror story) AND I would expect the powers that be to do everything in their power to stop me and bang me up for psychiatric counselling and grief management as a homicidal fruitloop driven mad by the cruel vagaries of fate!
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.131.109.71
Posted on Tuesday, July 13, 2010 - 07:20 am:   

And it's well known that some killers have reformed and gone on to lead lives that have changed and improved those of others, changing the routes those lives might have taken, saving lives as a result.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Huw (Huw)
Username: Huw

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 61.216.50.231
Posted on Tuesday, July 13, 2010 - 09:45 am:   

Tony, can you give a few examples of well-known murderers who've 'reformed' and gone on to save lives? Your post got me thinking, but I honestly couldn't come up with any. I'm sure there was at least one case in the back of my mind, unless I'm confusing real life with fiction again.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Simon Bestwick (Simon_b)
Username: Simon_b

Registered: 10-2008
Posted From: 86.24.209.217
Posted on Tuesday, July 13, 2010 - 10:28 am:   

'Tookie' Williams, the former founder of the Crips street gang, became a noted anti-gang and anti-violence advocate in prison. He was actually nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize. And then Schwarzennegger had him executed.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 195.166.117.210
Posted on Tuesday, July 13, 2010 - 10:34 am:   

He murdered at least 4 people, didn't he? While commiting armed robberies? Isn't a gang-banger becoming an anti-gang activist whilst in Death row a bit like those murderers who suddenly "find religion" is prison?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 195.166.117.210
Posted on Tuesday, July 13, 2010 - 10:35 am:   

...find religion IN prison.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.23.15.37
Posted on Tuesday, July 13, 2010 - 10:43 am:   

>>>And then Schwarzennegger had him executed.

He always could handle Predators.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Joel (Joel)
Username: Joel

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 91.110.137.199
Posted on Tuesday, July 13, 2010 - 11:19 am:   

"...find religion IN prison."

No, you were right the first time.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Allybird (Allybird)
Username: Allybird

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 88.104.142.59
Posted on Tuesday, July 13, 2010 - 11:56 am:   

Ha!
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 195.166.117.210
Posted on Tuesday, July 13, 2010 - 12:10 pm:   

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tony (Tony)
Username: Tony

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 81.131.109.71
Posted on Tuesday, July 13, 2010 - 04:23 pm:   

http://www.statesman.com/news/local/with-execution-a-week-away-powell-appeals-73 5684.html

'Isn't a gang-banger becoming an anti-gang activist whilst in Death row a bit like those murderers who suddenly "find religion" is prison?'
Well it'd be pretty daft for an innocent man to reform, wouldn't it? He wasn't going to get out, he needn't have done these things (the good things).
I'm worried that some people aren't as rounded as I'd hoped them to be.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Gary Fry (Gary_fry)
Username: Gary_fry

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 86.23.15.37
Posted on Tuesday, July 13, 2010 - 04:55 pm:   

>>>I'm worried that some people aren't as rounded as I'd hoped them to be.

I suspect even Jesus let loose while watching the occasional football match.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Zed (Gary_mc)
Username: Gary_mc

Registered: 03-2008
Posted From: 195.166.117.210
Posted on Tuesday, July 13, 2010 - 05:14 pm:   

I'm so well-rounded I'm almost rotund.

Add Your Message Here
Post:
Bold text Italics Underline Create a hyperlink Insert a clipart image

Username: Posting Information:
This is a private posting area. Only registered users and moderators may post messages here.
Password:
Options: Enable HTML code in message
Automatically activate URLs in message
Action:

Topics | Last Day | Last Week | Tree View | Search | Help/Instructions | Program Credits Administration