| Author | Message | ||
     Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 85.222.86.21 |
This is to everyone: If you were to receive criticism for your work/writing/stories, etc, what do you think would be the key criticisms. I'll start off. I would expect editors to say my work was confusing, over-written and too long. | ||
| Alexicon (Alexicon) Username: Alexicon Registered: 10-2009 Posted From: 88.106.51.225 |
"I'll start off. I would expect editors to say my work was confusing,over-written and too long." There's no evidence of any of that in your posts,mate. So perhaps you're being a little tough on yourself. In the past,I've received accusations of 'going too far'. The best one was from a very famous editor: "You are either a very lazy person,or you have too much money for your own good." Neither is true - it's simply that other things come first. | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 85.222.86.21 |
Alexicon - trust me, mate, there's plenty of evidence from my past work to suggest so, but thanks anyway. What do you mean exactly by too far, mate? | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.171.129.70 |
'What do you think would be the key criticisms?' It's rubbish. | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 85.222.86.21 |
Mark - no, mate, seriously, what do you think an editor would say? | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.31.194.128 |
Too many boobies. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.31.194.128 |
I know what people say, because they've said it. *Occasional awkward phrasing. *Occasional heavy-handed inclusion of themes. *Tendency to info-dump. I'm working on all. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.171.129.71 |
Well, seriously, then, if there's more than a flat bounce it's normally something different with each story, no one prevailing problem. My own feeling about my stuff is that the story's not normally very strong and that there's usually a stylistic stumble or twenty. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.171.129.71 |
Oh, something that does pop up more frequently is that my narrators or protagonists (not always the smae thing) tend to be a bit too passive. That's probably a reflection on me and my life, sitting on the sidelines as I often have been. In fact, I think Monsignor Fry made that criticism to me many years ago...still stands. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.171.129.71 |
I do think a lot of ... we'll call them habitual faults in a writer's body of work... I think they're often there out of the writers they've read and been influenced by, the surface mannerisms of those writers taken and then sometimes grossly exagerated into twitches and ticks. | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 85.222.86.21 |
I think, Mark, it's quite difficult to cut out our most prevalent real life tendencies. | ||
| Ian Alexander Martin (Iam) Username: Iam Registered: 10-2009 Posted From: 207.6.255.47 |
…which is odd, as I don't actually write fiction, and I'm an editor but can't edit my own shite. | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 212.219.233.223 |
In my next book I'm including a "Tips for Reviewers" section at the end, just to be helpful. It'll contain little cribs such as "Absurdism and Surrealism aren't the same thing" and "The wordplay is just there as a bonus to the story and isn't the point of the story itself" and "Yes, I'm not especially interested in characterisation; you don't have to remind me again of this." Etc. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.235.193 |
That's an interesting question, because it raises the issue of whether an author should take all editorial criticisms on board or write off some as just being 'the wrong reader'. To take a few actual comments I've received from critics (the first two) or editors (the second two) and my internal (never communicated) reactions: "These are not supernatural horror stories, just attempts to be 'literary'." Sorry, I can't be doing with ignorance. "The stories rely too often on sexual encounters as a device to set up character interaction." Good point. Note to self: vary relationship dynamics. And maybe change plans for weekend. "I suggest you go through your story and delete every sentence that doesn't take the plot forward." How about not? "I get an awful lot of stories of this kind and have to be selective." Fair enough. Note to self: try something different. | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 85.222.86.21 |
Hahah...Rhys, sounds like a lot of the editors who have rejected my work (: One editor expressed confusion over the title of a story I had written. The editor thought it should have been clearly explained. He didn't like that it might confuse the reader. Has anybody else ever had something similar to this 'criticism'. I'm not saying he doesn't have a point, just noting the specifics of the rejection. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.235.193 |
Oh yes. Ambiguity is bad: it leaves the reader without closure. And of course, it's a result of the author's carelessness and failure to learn from good examples. | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 212.219.233.223 |
One of the things that used to irk me was that reviewers never seemed to notice my formal structures; for instance, the fact that every chapter had exactly the same number of words as every chapter, or that the wordcount of every sentence was always somewhere on the Fibonnaci Sequence or always a prime, etc... Then I realised that if they had noticed, they would only think I was more daft than they already did! | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 85.222.86.21 |
Joel - that's quite interesting that the editor would ask that you delete every sentence which doesn't further the plot. He/she obviously discounts natural action? Observational details when characters are in mid process? Ambiguity is bad? Leaving the reader without closure? I would argue, Joel, that not all fiction has to give the reader closure. I would also argue that ambiguity learned well, or naturally applied as an instinctive development in the plot is equally as important as laying everything out. My title was explained in the story. The title was Conditional Expectation. It's just not spelt out, writ large in bold. But I obviously argue the ambiguity point as I've recently been indulging in that too much. It made me depressed that so much of my recent work was heading down that path. Not intentionally, but it was there nevertheless. The matter is being rectified in my own way. | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 85.222.86.21 |
Christ, rereading that I sound like a pompous t**t! | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 212.219.233.223 |
...which has made me wonder how many reviewers miss such tricks in other writers? Sergei Dovlatov never wrote a sentence that contained more than one word beginning with the same letter: that was his "creative fetter". It would be interesting to know how many critics completely missed that fact! | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 212.219.233.223 |
Oops -- my post crossed with Frank's. Frank: someone has to be a pompous t**t, for the sake of variety. I took upon myself this onerous duty years ago, because no one else seemed inclined to do so. I'll be happy for somebody else to shoulder the burden now though! | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 85.222.86.21 |
Heavy lies the crown  But yes, I believe myself to be fully armed in that department. Perhaps we could work shift basis, like wrestlers in a tag-team. You can be Giant Haystacks, and I'll be Big Daddy. | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 212.219.233.223 |
Pomposity and circumstance! I'll be Pomposity; you can be Circumstance. | ||
| Mick Curtis (Mick) Username: Mick Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.177.181.107 |
"...and I'll be Big Daddy." Don't call me Shirley! | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 85.222.86.21 |
Deal. But don't flake out on me when Pomposity runs out of steam.  | ||
| Alexicon (Alexicon) Username: Alexicon Registered: 10-2009 Posted From: 88.106.11.221 |
Frank: ..."my work was confusing,over-written and too long." Is this based on feedback you've actually received? Or is it just your perception of what a commissioning editor might think when he/she rejects your work? Frank again: "...there's plenty of evidence from my past work to suggest so." Concrete evidence in the form of: "Frank - your writing is confusing,over-written and too long."? Or would it be your own understandably petulant and resentful interpretation of a standard,non-committal rejection email/letter? The "too far" comment was made (I suspect) with regard to exceeding the bounds of accepted morality and public decency. In other words,I broke out of the contracted brief I was given by others. When it comes to my own fiction,I still like to 'push the envelope' in any way I can,otherwise,IMO, things become stale and turgid.So I'd expect editors to say: "Be wary of this guy's work,he has a tendency to go completely over the top." It's a personality deficiency; we all have them. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.235.193 |
"Ambiguity is bad? Leaving the reader without closure? I would argue, Joel, that not all fiction has to give the reader closure. I would also argue that ambiguity learned well, or naturally applied as an instinctive development in the plot is equally as important as laying everything out." Sorry, Frank, I was being sarcastic (about reviewers/editors). | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 85.222.86.21 |
Don't apologise, Joel. I have shit for brains, and quite clearly don't grasp the obvious, let alone ambiguity. Alexicon - no, it's not based on solid concrete proof, but some of the rejections, not all, have politely intimated such. BUT, I honestly feel I've some need to steer away from 'the ambiguity' I was talking about. Ambiguity for one editor, confusing for the other. But I definitely produce short stories crying out for a firmer editorial hand. I mentioned this to the editor of my second collection and he said the length was fine, but he agreed that we needed a few more straight forward stories to breakup the ambiguity of the others. He said he actually preferred the ones where he was 'allowed' to form his own ideas as to what was 'really' happening. Personally, I prefer the criticisms of editors, than a simple rejection letter/circular type. I may not agree with some of them, God knows I've had some shockingly asinine so-called productive criticisms, but some I do take on board, and some I wholeheartedly agree with. I used to react moderately well to criticism (knowing ones limitations is the key here), but even more so now. I've become quite objective to criticism. | ||
| Alexicon (Alexicon) Username: Alexicon Registered: 10-2009 Posted From: 88.106.11.221 |
I like this thread. It's healthy to hang one's angst-stained smalls out on the communal washing line. | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 85.222.86.21 |
This thread is actually a sub-thread of Rhys' original thread about which stories we knew to be stinkers...our own stories that is. But yes, there's a certain cathartic process in airing our writing undergarments for all to see. Is it boxers or old fashioned y-fronts with a purple border? | ||
| Alexicon (Alexicon) Username: Alexicon Registered: 10-2009 Posted From: 88.106.11.221 |
Neither. It's ex-Women's Royal Air Force shit-catchers in blue. Okay,I'm off. | ||
| Stevie Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 82.17.252.126 |
The "too far" comment was made (I suspect) with regard to exceeding the bounds of accepted morality and public decency. In other words,I broke out of the contracted brief I was given by others. When it comes to my own fiction,I still like to 'push the envelope' in any way I can,otherwise,IMO, things become stale and turgid.So I'd expect editors to say: "Be wary of this guy's work,he has a tendency to go completely over the top." That's exactly why I love your stories, Alex. Your "rejects" sound like "must reads" to my mind. | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 85.222.86.21 |
Alexicon - then I am surely the opposite, having acquired a 'talent' for such subtlety as it's almost nebulous in its conspicuousness I once received a rejection which stated 'I have to say I found your story has no relevance to a horror story. Nothing happens.' It made me smile, and not in an arrogant, smug sort of way. Really. I think I'm being pompous again. Where's Rhys? I'm supposed to be circumstance. | ||
| John Llewellyn Probert (John_l_probert) Username: John_l_probert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.152.74.159 |
OK - here are the main criticisms levelled at my work: Too much humour Too much sex Too much horror All I can say is that as well as being an accurate reflection of my life this just happens to be the way I like to write, and so when a certain Mr S Jones of Middlesex said 'Don't ever write a story like that ever again' about a particular amusing oversized genitalia story of mine that had me chuckling as I went to bed for many a night during its composition I can only say that such criticisms have changed my approach to writing not a jot. Similarly the accusation that I sacrifice all at the altar of plot and dialogue is something I'm also more than happy to live with. | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 85.222.86.21 |
| ||
| Ian Alexander Martin (Iam) Username: Iam Registered: 10-2009 Posted From: 207.6.255.47 |
These are the three principle things which I look for in writing. Clearly, there will be much JLP released in the coming decades from Atomic Fez, and Grey Friar will have to wrestle his MS-s (MS-i? MS-ae?) from my cold, dead hand. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.31.194.128 |
Gray. It's gray. It's an anagram, innit? Gary = Gray. | ||
| Ian Alexander Martin (Iam) Username: Iam Registered: 10-2009 Posted From: 207.6.255.47 |
More like a typo, really. Both of yours and mine, really. Granted, with only four letters — and just one of them a vowel — it's a devil of thing to do much with, isn't it? | ||
| Skip (Wolfnoma) Username: Wolfnoma Registered: 07-2010 Posted From: 72.218.208.106 |
Honestly? Really? I would expect my readers/editors and whoever else is involved would say that I am a hack and should shoot myself in the head with a meat bullet. Seriously though? I just want honesty, if someone decides to tear me a new hole I would take it with a grain of salt. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.150.197 |
"I just want honesty, if someone decides to tear me a new hole I would take it with a grain of salt." Too much humour, too much sex and too much horror all in one sentence. Sir, I salute you! | ||
| Jamie Rosen (Jamie) Username: Jamie Registered: 11-2008 Posted From: 99.241.48.210 |
"Weak ending." The one time a reviewer actually made that comment on something that saw print, it was one whose ending I was particularly satisfied with -- and which has probably been my most successful story to date. But it's an issue I've noticed in my own work at times as well, and it's a bugger to fix. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.148.194 |
Just go to an old-fashioned barber's shop, Jamie. They'll sell you something for the weak end. | ||
| Jamie Rosen (Jamie) Username: Jamie Registered: 11-2008 Posted From: 99.241.48.210 |
I thought you were going to suggest Buns of Steel. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.250.221 |
They'd wreck your weekend. | ||
| Jamie Rosen (Jamie) Username: Jamie Registered: 11-2008 Posted From: 99.241.48.210 |
And my teeth. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
http://www.freeimagehosting.net/image.php?ebf65345f1.jpg Check, check, check, check, check, check, check, check, check, check, check, check, check, check, check, check, and ESPECIALLY check.... | ||
| Kate (Kathleen) Username: Kathleen Registered: 09-2009 Posted From: 81.152.74.159 |
Craig, you lazy bugger - it's dead easy to post images! Here's where the link above takes you:  | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
Yeah, you're just trying to rub it in, Kate.... |