| Author | Message | ||
     Mbfg (Mbfg) Username: Mbfg Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 212.219.63.204 |
I'm sure that somewhere back in the mist when "Starship Troopers" first came out there was a thread on this subject. The thing is, I watched it for the first time the other night and was impressed and intrigued. I loved the layers of satire weaved into the square-jawed for-Earth-read-America gung-ho nonsense and its delicious self-mockery. At least I hope it was satire and self-mockery... The 1950s style information/propaganda shorts that stabbed into the main narrative were spot-on spoofs of those old US government information films on what to do if The Bomb was dropped and the obsession with communist infiltration. Also the casual cruelty towards, and total disregard for, the Arachnids and their society, culture and reasons for going to war against humankind were very well observed. This was doubly neat because the novel was written during that era (correct me if I'm wrong). It's made me want to re-read it because a) I've completely forgotten what it was like, the plot etc and b) I wanted to read it from a totally different angle form the one I did when I was 16-ish. Cheers Terry | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.79.3.110 |
The film managed to predict 9/11 and its use as an excuse for the occupation of Iraq. (There's no way bugs could make an asteroid fly across the galaxy to destroy a city.) I think the warrior bugs are beautiful, elegant things. The film doesn't have a resolution because an Orwellian war, the infrastructure for tyranny, is perpetual. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.153.151.150 |
Yes, i was confused by the film initially. It took me a while to realise it was anti-american. Quite shocking, really. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.166.117.210 |
I think it's hilarious. Very obvious satire, but it still works a treat. Really funny, really bloody, and really rather fun. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.153.151.150 |
I remember that lass with the tiny boobs. Just nips on a chest. Lawks, I think mine are bigger.  | ||
| Paul_finch (Paul_finch) Username: Paul_finch Registered: 11-2009 Posted From: 92.9.16.50 |
Amazing battle scene at the fort. But I'm surprised by some of these comments. Didn't folk think there were some rather right-wing undertones? The transformation of the recruits into the sort of kill-em-all stormtroopers even the Waffen SS would have been proud of. The second-lead's 'hail America' speech as he's about to be killed. I agree a lot of it was tongue-in-cheek satire (bug stamping, experimenting on living prisoners etc), but I'm not sure it all was. Also, Denise Richards is serious eye-candy, but for ST she must take an award for giving the most air-headed performances in the history of female film actors. Her repertoire in this movie consists of nothing but big, dozy pearly-toothed grins. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.153.151.150 |
I think the right-wing stuff was criticism of the west. The humans were bad. The uniforms we saw on some of them later were clearly nazi. I'm actually surprised they got away with it, to be honest. | ||
| Mbfg (Mbfg) Username: Mbfg Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 212.219.63.204 |
They may have got away with it because of the "God bless America" element. I'm sure there were enough grey-suited film-illiterate accountants who were taken in by those aspects of the piece and some hard-nose West-Pointers who saw it as a patriotic training/recruitment film for the militry! And that, i think, is its clevernss. If you are lacking in the irony department, you could watch it and feel proud to be an Earthman! Terry | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.153.151.150 |
I wanted space movie pleasure but came out feeling glum. I know I was MEANT to feel glum - I just missed the unnalloyed space battle excitement, being able to just 'enjoy' it. Maybe that was the point. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.166.117.210 |
But I'm surprised by some of these comments. Didn't folk think there were some rather right-wing undertones? The transformation of the recruits into the sort of kill-em-all stormtroopers even the Waffen SS would have been proud of. The second-lead's 'hail America' speech as he's about to be killed Paul, those were some of the very broad satrorical aspects that I found hilarious. They were deliberately, painfully OTT: like a pantomime. The tone of the film put me in mind of Springtime For Hitler. | ||
| Stevie Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
I remember being as appalled as I was impressed by 'Starship Troopers' when I first saw it, but the movie has continued to grow in my estimation ever since as a pitch perfect satire that (like the classic and much misunderstood novel) works on many different levels. With time it may even come to be recognised as Verhoeven's masterpiece. Heinlein's novel reads on the surface as a gung-ho first person narrative telling of a raw young (Puerto Rican) recruit's experiences from training camp to battlefield - that is exciting, or worrying, in itself as a young adult action/adventure yarn. But read between the lines and this is no simple right-wing militaristic text but a serious attempt to imagine a workable form of government were the human race forced to come together in the face of "monstrous" alien aggression from across the galaxy. The bug society is fully worked out and even admired, in some aspects, by Heinlein but shown as utterly merciless with a completely different order of hive mind intelligence and value judgements from us - and thus impossible to negotiate with. Once this unavoidable necessity for military action is set up he shows in unflinching and brilliantly imagined minute detail the full effect it would have on human society and human nature. The opening chapter introduces us to our hero revelling in the merciless annihilation of an alien civilian outpost - including the burning of their equivalent of a church with congregation still inside. The rest of the book (starting with his last days at college) takes the form of one long flashback showing the full process of indoctrination that turned him and his buddies into killing machines, every bit as merciless and efficient as the bugs. I didn't agree with all of Bob's ideas and opinions in the book, but I did the majority, and it is this ability to challenge and confound the reader without alienating, due to his wonderful storytelling ability and curmudgeonly affability, that makes him so uniquely entertaining and thought provoking imho. | ||
| Tom_alaerts (Tom_alaerts) Username: Tom_alaerts Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.78.35.175 |
I liked the movie quite a bit. Some time ago I read Scalzi's "Old Man's War", and you could easily say that it's a Starship Troopers for the 21st century. Various nasty critters, fun action, big ideas, and manipulative organisations. It's hugely entertaining and rather well done, with a perfect balance of action and the infodumps that you sometimes encounter in SF. Old Man's War is deservedly popular, and a strongly recommended read! The sequel suffered from too much infodump yet was still fun, and part 3 had the balance right again. Now waiting for the Zoe's Tale, the sidequel to part 2. It's out in paperback but I have the nice Subterranean edition on preorder. An interesting style detail is that the look of several alien races is barely described, sometimes it's only a concise hint like "We'll kick their reptilian ass.". | ||
| Paul_finch (Paul_finch) Username: Paul_finch Registered: 11-2009 Posted From: 92.9.16.50 |
"Paul, those were some of the very broad satrorical aspects that I found hilarious. They were deliberately, painfully OTT: like a pantomime. The tone of the film put me in mind of Springtime For Hitler." Gary ... if the tub-thumping speech the second hero made just before he died was actually anti-American satire, then it's cleverer satire than I've ever seen from a big budget Hollywood movie before. A bit of a contrast to the heavy-handed satire in the rest of it. But it's a small quibble. I've watched the film before, and enjoyed it, and no doubt I will again. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.166.117.210 |
Paul - I took bits like that as a massive piss-take of gung-ho American spirit. I took the entire film as that, to be honest: it's a comedy. | ||
| Stevie Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
I agree, Zed. 'Starship Troopers' is one of the best, and funniest, satirical sci-fi movies I have seen, bettered only by Verhoeven's own 'RoboCop' - "your move creep..." | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.166.117.210 |
Robocop is brilliant. Again, it's hilarious in it's piss-taking of right-wing cop films, but also has a disturbing quality all of its own. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 147.252.230.148 |
"They were deliberately, painfully OTT: like a pantomime. The tone of the film put me in mind of Springtime For Hitler." Yes. Doogie Hauser in an SS uniform saying he "wants that brain". The commentary makes it clear that the writer was much more pro-American than the director. | ||
| Matthew Fryer (Matthew_fryer) Username: Matthew_fryer Registered: 08-2009 Posted From: 194.176.105.56 |
Tremendous film, but overall I found it rather depressing because the satire was so bang on. And I agree with Paul about Denise Richards. She brought absolutely nothing to the film other than that enormous, boringly white grin. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 147.252.230.148 |
"She brought absolutely nothing to the film other than that enormous, boringly white grin." That's one of the funniest things in the film. Corpses are slamming on the canopy of her spacecraft and she's grinning all the way. | ||
| John Forth (John) Username: John Registered: 05-2008 Posted From: 82.24.1.217 |
"Paul - I took bits like that as a massive piss-take of gung-ho American spirit. I took the entire film as that, to be honest: it's a comedy." Yep, I think that's without question. Although I do suspect that a lot of the actors involved had no idea they were making a comedy/satire, which just makes it all the funnier. | ||
| Matthew Fryer (Matthew_fryer) Username: Matthew_fryer Registered: 08-2009 Posted From: 90.195.182.42 |
Protodroid, interesting. Do you think her performance was self-aware and deliberate? Or were you just laughing because it was crap? | ||
| Paul_finch (Paul_finch) Username: Paul_finch Registered: 11-2009 Posted From: 92.9.16.50 |
"Although I do suspect that a lot of the actors involved had no idea they were making a comedy/satire," I certainly don't think the two male leads did. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.241.93 |
"Protodroid, interesting. Do you think her performance was self-aware and deliberate? Or were you just laughing because it was crap?" I think that only Verhoeven saw the humour. America was founded on multi-culturalism which required unambiguous communication in order to work, so irony was largely eliminated as a habit. I just love seeing those cocky genetically engineered beautiful people torn to ribbons by graceful beasts red in tooth and mandible. They predicted interactive news too, which gives the illusion of choice ("Would you like to know more?") | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.241.93 |
And what about the eloquent symbolism of the ending? The ultimate enemy of facism is a brain? The last on screen dialogue as it's telepathically scanned, surrouned by grey uniforms and jackboots? "It's afraid!" The mob cheers. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
I loved this film, every bit of it, one of Verhoven's finest - yes, a fine movie-maker, of the big flashy crazy in-your-face kind they don't do so well anymore (well, Michael Bay does... ha! Psych!). BASIC INSTINCT is the finest mystery/thriller of the 1980's. I also loved that crazed little cameo from Rue McClanahan in STARSHIP TROOPERS - talk about playing against type!! | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 61.216.47.162 |
"BASIC INSTINCT is the finest mystery/thriller of the 1980's." Not even close to being, in my opinion (not least because it came out in 1992). | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
Ha!!!  Uh, whoops. Let me tone that back a whole bunch then and just say... I liked it a lot. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.153.151.150 |
I think Richards casting was genius. She came across as an innocent. A better actress wouldn't have worked. That's the key, you see - these troops we see exploding are innocents; they think they're right. They're the film's victims because they've been brought up to accept how things seem. It's a tragic film all round. | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 85.222.86.21 |
Bill Hicks adequately summed up Basic Instinct..."just look at it, take a deep breath, now say, hey, it's a piece of shit..." Craig - you are unique. You hate DD, but judge BI to be a decent film. Don't let anybody say you will be swayed by general opinion. I salute you, sir. No patronizing intended. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.153.151.150 |
I liked Basic Instinct at the time. Bill Hicks is odd, sometimes his anger just goes in every direction without really thinking about it. He was great at justifying it in words, but sometimes it was like it was because he could rather than because there was reason to. | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 85.222.86.21 |
Tony - sorry, mate, have to disagree about the great Bill. He's considered by many of his contemporaries to be the perfect stand-up comedian, some of which is based on his grasp and direction of the material. I personally feel him to be the greatest of all stand-up comedians, and I adore many disparate types of comedy, especially in stand-up, but apart from Peter Cook, I believe him to be the pinnacle so far. That's just me, though. I just wish Bill was around now, as the political climate would be far more ideal for him now than it ever was in the 1990's. | ||
| Stevie Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
Verhoeven's incredibly variable as a director. He's made some of the finest movies of the modern era ('Flesh + Blood', 'RoboCop', 'Starship Troopers') & some of the most vacuous crap ('Total Recall', 'Basic Instinct', 'Showgirls') in my humble opinion. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.79.115.64 |
"Bill Hicks is odd, sometimes his anger just goes in every direction without really thinking about it. He was great at justifying it in words, but sometimes it was like it was because he could rather than because there was reason to." I agree with this. He was like a laser that didn't have time to fully collimate its light. Some of his material consisted of weak, scatalogical ad homenims, but I think he would have matured wonderfully had he lived beyond 32. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.253.77 |
He's made some of the finest movies of the modern era ('Flesh + Blood', 'RoboCop', 'Starship Troopers') Eh? Wha? Stevie, I agree that they're very good big, daft, unsubtle, semi-suberversive, big-budget Hollywood romps. But the finest movies of the modern era? Really? Bill Hicks...I agree with Proto that he would have developed magnificently and become what a lot of folk say he already was. | ||
| Stevie Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
Yes, I rank them very highly as genre pictures - he was a mercurial talent but at his best as good as any big name director in the business. 'RoboCop' is his masterpiece, imo, and one of the finest satirical sci-fi movies I have seen. Whereas 'Total Recall' is one of the worst lol?! | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
And let's not forget the whacked out creepy thriller THE FOURTH MAN. Flawed, but compelling, and a precursor of BASIC INSTINCT. No, Frank, I'm indeed not swayed by public opinion. I still haven't seen AVATAR, and I really could care less if I ever do. That will shock about half of you here, but now I'll shock the other half: I still haven't seen INCEPTION, and I've come to find I really could care less if I ever do that one, either. There, that takes care of everyone now.  | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.204.32 |
"I really could care less if I ever do. That will shock about half of you here, but now I'll shock the other half: I still haven't seen INCEPTION, and I've come to find I really could care less if I ever do that one, either." "Could care less" does indeed shock me as a phrase. The thought of actually watching INCEPTION does nothing for me either. | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.22.225.98 |
Well, I haven't seen Avatar or Inception either. Ridiculous, I know. | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.22.225.98 |
Absolutely love Denise Richards, though. She shows a bit of flesh in one of those dull Pierce Brosnan Bonds, I forget the title. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
Yes, "could care less" is actually quite meaningless, and I've fallen into the trap of spouting it. "Couldn't care less" is more accurate. Actually, best to discard it entirely: I just don't want to see AVATAR or INCEPTION. A 6th Sense is telling me that I will not like the experience... but who knows, who knows... I've liked movies that go against all my Spidey-senses, so there's always that.... Yet another post of mine that used up a lot of words and yet amounted to: nothing being said. Oh well, at I least I didn't have to read it. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
I ran into Denise Richards once, actually, one of the few "stars" I ever have. She's quite short. So is Mickey Rooney, who I've also ran into. But you already knew that. And yet more and more words.... | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.79.36.253 |
She played Christmas Jones in that Bond film: "I thought Christmas only came once a year." The most famous person I've been in a room with was Robert Redford. He was tall. | ||
| Mbfg (Mbfg) Username: Mbfg Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 212.219.63.204 |
Name dropping eh? I've played harmonica and sung "When the Levee Breaks" and "On The Road Again" with a jam nite scratch band featuring Van Morrison's former drummer. He said I was a mean harp player. Whether he meant that I could play well or that it was about time I opened my long-sealed wallet bought a round I'm not too sure... And once I was given a lift home by former Blue Peter presenter, darts prsenter and long-ago Dr Who sidekick Peter Purves - I was too pisssd to drive my own car and I'd been to a posh dinner party that also included the Bishop of St Edmundsbury and Ipswich on is guest list. So there. Cheers Terry | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.153.151.150 |
Hicks was not often funny, and his jibes - even if deserved - made me feel uncomfortable. I've seen comedians lay into audience members before at the comedy store. It's horrible and makes them look like nasty people, and it's certainly not amusing in any way. I thought Showgirls was quite twisted and interesting btw. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.68 |
I too liked Basic Instinct (not too much initially, but more so second time around) and Total Recall (I especially liked the psychiatrist who turns up simply to argue he doesn't exist). | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 178.116.54.251 |
I ran into Denise Richards once Did you get a chance to talk to her, Craig? She looks absolutely stunning imho. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
Nah, Hubert, it was basically a seeing her on the street kind of thing. Oh - I forgot, I also saw on the street Quentin Tarrantino once - he's quite tall, and if you didn't know he was QT, kind of creepy. Many years ago, I was in a pumpkin patch with Danny DeVito. And his wife, Rhea Pearlman. Now Ramsey, did you like BASIC INSTINCT 2? I'm probably one of the only ones around who liked that one, in fact, liked it quite a bit. I have a feeling that fact, revealed, will win me no more friends... it might lose what few I have.... If that doesn't do it, then my joining in with Tony and claiming SHOWGIRLS wasn't as bad as everyone says it was, surely will. | ||
| Matthew Fryer (Matthew_fryer) Username: Matthew_fryer Registered: 08-2009 Posted From: 90.195.182.42 |
I like the way Showgirls forced me to root for a rather unpleasant person. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.68 |
"Now Ramsey, did you like BASIC INSTINCT 2?" I rather did. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 166.216.226.189 |
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