| Author | Message | ||
     Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 27.252.166.203 |
So....I've only been gone 5 minutes and all hell breaks lose. How are you all? http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/seealso/2011/08/daily_view_what_can_be_learned.html | ||
| Mbfg (Mbfg) Username: Mbfg Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 92.4.166.144 |
Angry beyond words that nobody (except the ordinary bobbies) are doing anything about this! Again the same old handringing about thugs who have "No stake in our society". God, how sick I am of hearing such wingeing bloody drivel. These kids were/are given the same free eduation the rest of us were given. What else are we supposed to give them? What other teat are they supposed to be offered to suck at? Poverty? I teach kids like this - all them owning the very latest mobile phones and wearing the latest designer branded clothes. So don't play the poverty card. Yes there is poverty, I know that, but that isn't what this is about. I know I'm being reactionary and cumudgeonly but I'm too furious that we are beign held to ransom by our own kids to think straight at the moment. Regards Terry | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.26.188.49 |
I guess the DWP changes to JSA have just been officially announced in bullet-point form . . . | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 212.219.233.223 |
The thing that amazes me the most about this whole business is how the Kaiser Chiefs knew it was going to happen six years before it did... | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.137.168.78 |
"...the world as it has been will be swept away. It starts here. From its field of roses, the Dark Tower cries out in its beast’s voice. Time is a face on the water.” Stephen King - The Dark Tower | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.26.188.49 |
"We're all doomed." --Dad's Army. | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 212.219.233.223 |
"They don't like it, Upham!" Oh, wait... That's me complaining about the lack of reviews for my book The Postmodern Mariner, published by Steve Upham's Screaming Dreams small-press... | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 178.116.57.88 |
"Shoot them in the nuts." Lou Reed. Hi, Ally. How's life treating you down under? | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
Bet you're glad you left the country now, Ally? Hope life is treating you well down under.  Terry - I have to agree with your sentiments here. I don't know if it's my age or what but we always used to have respect for other people, and the society we lived in, in my younger days. Nowadays, the kids all talk about "respect" but don't seem to know the meaning of the word. Yours, An angry, grumpy old woman  | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.155.207.87 |
*MUMBO JUMBO WARNING* Des, this week I've been talking with Albie about coincidences. At the moment we've been talking about Aleister Crowley, suggesting that life is a series of puzzles but that these puzzles are meaningless, made to ditract us from the presence of the abyss, overlooked by one Choronzon. When you start seeing coincidences too much it means you are on the egde of this abyss. Well this week we've been seeing a lot of butterflies in our coincidences, and the other night I put on Silence of the Lambs for me and one of my lads and what figures in it but butterflies and moths? And what is the moth/butterfly the symbol of? Transformation. The repetitiveness of this creature in my life at the moment seems to suggest - to *me* - change, a time of change. I'm with the rioters btw. I don't like the damage they cause, or the hurt, but I am with them in their primal cry against this current materialist world and what feels more than ever a dead and meaningless future. (actually i'm not 'with' them - I just understand where they're coming from. There's so much pressure to buy and buy stuff and that you don't look cool if you don't, you won't fit in (and fitting in, being part of society is so important). I hope this isn't offensive.) | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.155.207.87 |
distract | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.155.207.87 |
I think good will come of this. It needed to happen to show us what people truly need out of life. Anyone see how kid's parents keep looking at their phones, pushing prams or swings? Kids have never felt so excluded from adult minds as now. | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
>>Kids have never felt so excluded from adult minds as now.<< Not sure I agree with you there, Tony (not that I have kids, so I'm not much of an expert there). I reckon one of the problems nowadays is that kids want to grow up too soon - they want to have all the latest fashions and all those material goods. I don't want to sound like an old fogey (though I probably do) but when I was a kid we just "made do", especially as we were poor and living on a council estate. For entertainment, I'd go walking for miles, or read a book, or sit and watch kingfishers and water voles in a nearby brook (try finding those nowadays though  ). We didn't need i-phones, i-pads and i-this-that-and-the-other. Sorry, I do sound like an old fogey, but kids don't seem to appreciate things nowadays - it's just a consumer-driven lust for everything new and shiny. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.155.207.87 |
Kids don't because they can't. Childhood was killed roundabout the early eighties, when consumerism skyrocketed. I think kids are pulled up these days. No kids tv, no kids radio... any kids on tv look and act like little women and blokes. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.8.26.56 |
"Kids don't because they can't. Childhood was killed roundabout the early eighties, when consumerism skyrocketed." I'm sorry, I think that's utter nonsense. Our son and daughter are children of that era, and it certainly wasn't true of them, nor of any of their friends. And I'm sorry to learn that you sympathise with the rioters. As with Moat, I sympathise with their victims. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 178.108.146.60 |
Ramsey - your kids had you as a dad. My trouble these days, and it seems to be alienating me more every day, is that I can see both sides in almost everything. :-( | ||
| Jonathan (Jonathan) Username: Jonathan Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.143.178.131 |
It's hard to see a 'side' of these people to be honest. I know that cuts etc has fueled this, but have no sympathy at all with people who attack their own communities and people rather than organising political protest. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.8.26.56 |
"Ramsey - your kids had you as a dad." Much more importantly, Jenny as their mother! | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 149.254.226.183 |
These are simple people who probably can't articulate their own problems. Kids who think Sherlock Holmes was a real person. Life is unreal these days, the future uncertain. People act like this when they think the world's ending. The desire for crime alone doesn't generate this much energy. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.79.231.48 |
"As with Moat, I sympathise with their victims." Surely we can sympathise with both? It doesn't have to be an even split of sympathy, of course. Whatever you might think about the rioting, we can't have one generation complain about the attitudes of the younger generation as if they had nothing to do with it. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.137.168.78 |
Like Jonathan, I can't see a 'side' either, especially when these seem to be just 'children' out of control of their parents, 'children' being dignified with the words 'political rioters', rather than dysfunctional exponents of theft and pillage. But, meanwhile, many political forces have been calling for 'riots' - positive action, so-called - against the Capitalist, monetarist Coalition government, so-called. Meanwhile, hopelessness is our biggest enemy (I think that is what Tony is saying). Hopelessness (or a sense of grievous injustice) that often fuels 'political riots' as well as filling those parents with the same hopelessness who then can't keep their children in check, children who feed off that sense of hopelessness. Hopelessness, that feeds off greed, and vice versa. Fuelled by drugs and alcohol. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.26.188.49 |
I've met a lot of people whose worlds have effectively ended, Tony. Who have no future that bears thinking about. Little money that doesn't come from the welfare; no prospects; unable to work; tired and angry. They're called heavy-duty carers. Some of them are young. And as far as I'm aware, few of them go round smashing up cities. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.26.188.49 |
Having said that, understanding is not the same as sympathising. This is one helluva case of Anomie. Deeply embedded in modern mores. A real mess. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.150.133.39 |
http://www.salfordstar.com/article.asp?id=1059 Looks like Salford might be next on the list... | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
.. and my hubby has been sent home early from his work in Leeds city centre - looks like they've intelligence there may be trouble there tonight.  | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.26.188.49 |
Yeah, we're expecting a few uppity grannies at large in Whitby this evening. I'm locking my door at half-seven. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 149.254.224.58 |
Btw i'm thinking of leaving facebook. My wife is taking my quote jokes seriously and showing no sense of humour at all. I'm dreading her getting back tonight cos I know there'll be a row over this stupid Adam Sandler joke. What's going round? So many women I know seem to have had humour bypasses. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.150.133.39 |
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/video/news/3721810/Knight-warrior-patrols-S alford.html Where's this guy when you need him? And why do I think "Complete twat whose watched kickass one too many times" every time I watch that clip? | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
>>Yeah, we're expecting a few uppity grannies at large in Whitby this evening.<< Argh! You've sussed me and my fellow old cronies!  | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.26.188.49 |
So it's you who leaves her sherry glasses on walls in the portside. You cursed rebel! | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.222.228 |
"It's hard to see a 'side' of these people to be honest" But you know it's there. They're not one dimensional. There are reasons. For the most complicated things, there are reasons. | ||
| Simon Bestwick (Simon_b) Username: Simon_b Registered: 10-2008 Posted From: 86.24.209.217 |
Salford Market's been set on fire. I know there are underlying causes, etc, but I'm fighting to hold my inner Daily Mail reader in check here... | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.222.228 |
Clearly a bit of society isn't being fed something. What's interesting is seeing how the riots of a couple of decades ago have turned into looting. These people have been programmed to see things in capitalist, materialist terms rather than action to gain abstract concepts its action to gain new mobile phones. But I don't want to project my own views onto this like so many in the media seem to be doing. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.150.133.39 |
This is now kicking off less than a mile from my house... | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.222.228 |
I just heard a siren. This thing can't cross the sea, can it? | ||
| Simon Bestwick (Simon_b) Username: Simon_b Registered: 10-2008 Posted From: 86.24.209.217 |
Shit Weber. Stay safe mate. Whereabouts in Salford are you again? Not sure how far all this is from Swinton now... | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.151.146.214 |
Off out to the Pub. It's all near the precinct and heading towards Ordsall as far as I can see from the live blogs. So heading to Swinton for a couple of free pints should be safe. Can't even see the smoke from my house | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
Yikes, Weber, be careful! I wouldn't venture out if this was happening that close to my home. We used to live where the now infamous Bradford riots took place - it was very scary indeed! | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 49.226.20.146 |
Just got up. 7.30a.m. here, in NZ. Just going to read your posts and try to get some news (using my laptop and the news coverage on NZ TV) Kiwi reportage is putting it down to the initial incident, government cuts and 'recreational' rioting. | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
>>What's interesting is seeing how the riots of a couple of decades ago have turned into looting.<< Some thoughts on that from various psychologists/sociologists in a BBC article here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14463452 | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 49.226.20.146 |
Thank you for asking, Hubert and Caroline. There are still many problems in Christchurch after the earthquake so we decided not to add to that (and the fear of more quakes so we settled in North Island). One of the reasons we emigrated to NZ was that there are only 4 million people in a country bigger than the UK...there are less people paying tax here so that does stretch services, and schools do rely on 'donations' from parents each year for stationary etc. I won't distract the discussion by talking about it here but these small communities seem to work well. Every kid in my daughter's class (from the well off to those whose parents are out of work) went on the school ski trip last week, and those parents who couldn't afford it fund raised by cooking school meals with those who could buying them. Skills...also any surplus of anything are traded. Different world. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.222.228 |
Caroline, an interesting point in that article - try looting at mobile phone from the 1980s. You'd need a van. | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 220.138.166.185 |
I think this is really shameful. I look at what's happening in Syria and around the Middle East, where people are fighting for freedom and the most basic of living standards, then next on the news I see gangs of thugs looting shops and setting fire to people's buildings around Britain. I'm disgusted. Where's Rutger Hauer when you need him? | ||
| Mbfg (Mbfg) Username: Mbfg Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 92.4.168.145 |
So, a thousand thousand people spent their youth in concentration camps, now that is exclusion, that is hopelssness. Did they smash up shops and steal "stuff" when they were liberated and brought back to life? Well, did they? My parents were dirt poor, had little in the way of opportunities, did they smash up shops and steal "stuff"? No, they expected nothing from "society" and got on with making lives for themselves. My kids went through the hell of a terminally ill mother and her subsequent shocking death. That's enough to drive any teenager mad. Did they go round smashing up shops and stealing "stuff". Nope. They've got themsleves jobs (and that took a lot of effort and persistance on their part) and in my son's case, a family of his own. Like I said. Elements of these criminals (they are not rioters, they are just criminals) are given a free education. They are constantly helped and counselled and have attention and money lavished on them. What do they do? reject it, for whatever reason. I know I'm being simplistic, but by the time they arrive at the college where I teach they know the game and how to play it. I've run out of sympathy and empathy and understanding. I'm sorry but there it is. My wife and I tried to help someone like this. We spent money time and effort on him. he was given a free flat and £1500 to furnish it. he drug-delt with the money and trashed the flat. The idea of working for a living was laughable to him. We tried to get him into some work but he wasn't interested. He's 20 now and to hell with him. i'll put the effort into those that deserve some help. After a couple of years i'd had enough of him. Yes, I'm angry. Terry | ||
| James Armstrong (James_armstrong) Username: James_armstrong Registered: 10-2010 Posted From: 86.150.88.179 |
Sorry, not had a chance to come on here for the last couple of days. "Kids don't because they can't. Childhood was killed roundabout the early eighties, when consumerism skyrocketed. I think kids are pulled up these days. No kids tv, no kids radio... any kids on tv look and act like little women and blokes." I'm practically a child of the era you're talking about. I had a wonderful childhood and so did all my close friends - they're now all liberal-minded, imaginative people with respect for ethics and moral responsibiliy. In fact they're no different from most of the people on here. I'm not saying I understand the motives behind such behaviour but I think it's dangerous to make such sweeping generalisations. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.151.146.214 |
Pub was actually busier than usual for the quiz. Apart from a couple of scrotes asking if we'd seen any police about as we walked home, no sign of anything. Of course I've not been anywhere near the precinct tonight... | ||
| Alexicon (Alexicon) Username: Alexicon Registered: 10-2009 Posted From: 80.42.213.104 |
My God, this virus is spreading quickly! Just heard on the local wires that Poundland and two charity shops have been looted in Penzance. Terror runs rampant in west Cornwall. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.253.77 |
Where's Rutger Hauer when you need him? Huw, that gave me a much-needed chuckle this morning...  | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.155.207.87 |
Maybe I have been a bit broad in my sweeps. All I remember about growing up is that in the eighties it felt like someone said 'oh, let's have christmas every day' and it felt like there were loads more shops and gadgets. I wasn't really saying bad parenting set in then, just a sense of materialism and 'I've gotta have that'. Maybe it was just Thatcher and the mines, the divides she created between police and poor folk. 'Stuff' is not really what I'm talking about, it's the desire for stuff, stuff they think will fill the holes they have inside them. I live in quite a rough area and I've seen how people treat their kids and each other. My youngest's mates seem to envy/hate our place because we're 'nice' and don't swear or be harsh. One even seems to be treating it as a second home (lives with granfolk usually, mum and dad split up). These people don't have terrible things happening to them or no money but they do live vaccuous lives, boring, pointless lives. I've been noticing how lost they look in the riot films, and bored. We mustn't underestimate boredom as a motive - when your future stretches out like a wasteland and you've not done well at school because being cultured is frowned on (my God is it ever) by your peers and parents these people do not connect, have no empathy - they hate everyone, even themselves (I've seen their tending towards self-destruction). I'm sorry if I've pissed people off, but most of my neighbours are of the rioter variety and I've been observing them for most of my life, felt a mix or pity and complete loathing of them (they've made my life a misery as I'm sure some of you might attest to here on the board). I wasn't well off but had love at home, too, lived in the centre of Newcastle, right next to the slummy areas. It's odd but there was a sense of community then (just) - now I never feel there is. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.155.207.87 |
I watched the trailer for Hobo - I thought it addressed a lot of these issues very well. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.155.207.87 |
I must stress that there are different kinds of poverty, nothing to do with money. People are feeling like zoo animals, or those people off Time Machine, the eloi is it? In fact they sum these days up for me, especially the bit where one of them falls in a river. | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 178.116.57.88 |
@ Ally - Sounds really interesting. We hear so little from NZ and it seems to me you have a potential paradise there. How do they look at immigrants? Are there still dominion-like ties with the UK? | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 27.252.24.215 |
Yes. It is wonderful and strange. Hunting wild boar isn't exactly what I've seen before...but people hunt and eat, not just for sport. So there is a place to bring the animals and a place to bring the grapes to press for you. It isn't really all about the tourist industry. I'm trying to get down to how NZ really works. And an interesting question Hubert.... Martinborough, where I am staying for the winter, was laid out years ago, streets forming the lines in the Union Jack, and then called York street etc...yes people feel tied to the homeland. Up the road,here, the Scandanavians settled. Strange thing is I feel like a settler of the old days in some ways...picking out the land, wondering if the trees will fall down, and the stream flood the house. Will we have enough rain water to last the summer? Time will tell. ...can I set down roots like the ones I had in the UK. I left my mother's grave with nobody to tend it, that feels bad...I'll adapt though. I always have. Too early to tell how Kiwis feel about immigration. I've been welcomed. | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 27.252.24.215 |
In my little town...bread £3 a loaf. I have to travel over 10 miles to get it for less. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.66.23.11 |
A couple of them broke into a music shop near me - apparently they were Luters... | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
Ally - your little corner of the world sounds like heaven (apart from the price of bread and hunting wild boar ). I hope the setting is inspiring you to write some great fiction!  It's that kind of community spirit which Ally describes - the richer helping the poorer, etc - which I think many of us at the older end of the scale tend to miss in the UK nowadays. When I was a kid in the 60s we had that sense of community. We didn't need to lock our doors when we nipped out for a few minutes. Everyone knew everyone else and helped out where needed. That rarely seems to happen today - it's a cut-throat, selfish, grab-what-you-can-get culture we seem to have here now. I think that's why so many of us at the older end of the scale are raging against these yobs and saying to hell with the softly, softly approach. Of course, not all young folk are bad. This is a small minority who are causing all the trouble, and most young folk still have the same kind of principles I remember having as a youngster. But I do fear for the future of this country and the way it's going as the bad folk seem to be getting way out of control (gun crime, etc). It's frightening to an oldie like me who remembers "the good old days". | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 178.116.57.88 |
frightening to an oldie like me who remembers "the good old days Nowadays not only do you need a smartphone in order to establish any semblance of interpersonal contact, you have to have the latest model lest you be despised as an ignoramus or a have-not. | ||
| Stevie Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
I have to say I feel for Tony in his well meaning naivete on this issue while disagreeing with him passionately. These "rioters" are nothing more than organised criminal opportunists with the power of numbers and technological know-how and the freedom that lack of respect for others in society breeds. We (i.e. society) have no respect for them which feeds their disenfranchisment and leads to disgraceful acts of unforgiveable anti-socialism that invite labels such as "feral children". There is a new underclass in society now that is actively creating its own antagonistic subculture and the causes for this have been building up to this perfect storm since Thatcher's denial of society values, and embracing of the "I'm alright Jack" ethos, in the 1980s. It may already be too late to re-educate this couple of lost generations (the wild kids and their disinterested parents) but the lessons from this insane eruption of hatred need to be learnt and put into action by every adult, parent and figure of authority in the sorry excuse for a society we have TODAY... Fuck the BIG SOCIETY and let's start talking more about the inclusive and morally responsible society... from the grass roots up to the millionaire holidaymakers who run this sorry land! | ||
| Greg James (Greg_james) Username: Greg_james Registered: 04-2011 Posted From: 62.244.179.50 |
I think one of the things that has scared and angered everyone about these riots is that there isn't the same focus to them from more previous politicised demonstrations. Government property has been attacked as have big businesses and local businesses and people's homes. One of the reasons the debates I've been following have become so fragmented seems to be because the causes given by people involved seem to be all over the place; boredom, consumerism, political, social and so on. This suggests to me that maybe what we are seeing is a kind of 'perfect storm' where people who are angry for all of these reasons and more have kicked off at the same time. The shooting of Mark Duggan and the subsequent stop-and-search by the police has just provided the flashpoint and it has all spun out from there. | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 220.138.166.34 |
"I have to say I feel for Tony in his well meaning naivete on this issue while disagreeing with him passionately." "These "rioters" are nothing more than organised criminal opportunists with the power of numbers and technological know-how and the freedom that lack of respect for others in society breeds." I agree with you entirely, Stevie. I don't see how anyone can sympathise with the criminals involved in this. People are being brutalised or worse, and property destroyed - these scumbags are doing this simply because they feel they can. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 178.107.45.122 |
I'm being misunderstood, angering people. I'll drop out of this for a bit. | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
>>Fuck the BIG SOCIETY and let's start talking more about the inclusive and morally responsible society...<< Stevie - if you were running for Prime Minister, I'd vote for you with a slogan like that! Tony - it isn't you who's angering people, this whole situation is angering people. You have every right to your views on this, as do we all. I can understand how you say you understand them (like the debate about empathy on another thread) - I just don't understand them myself. Don't be put off by our debate here - it's just a debate. We all respect your views, as you respect everyone else's. | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 220.138.166.34 |
Tony, don't feel you have to drop out of this discussion - I'm not angry at you (sorry if I made you feel that), just bewildered. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.253.77 |
Tony, perhaps if you weren't so woolly in your comments, people might not misunderstand you? I'm not having a go - just saying, like. I understand these people - I grew up with them. And Stevie's right, we have at least two generations who don't give a shit about anything but their own desires. Boredom? Come off it, I was bored as a kid, and we had nothing (certainly not the expensive trainers, Sky TV and Blackberrys these kids have, and certain quarters claim that these people are living in poverty!), but we didn't smash up our towns. I was disenfranchised: the product of a broken home, raised on a council estate, had to struggle for everything we ever had. I was taught to work hard, to drag myself out of the pit, to save up for what I wanted, and to respect the property of others. Somewhere along the line something went hideously wrong, and an underclass has sprung up that has no respect for anything. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.151.146.214 |
I think 20 years ago these kids would have been smashing up the towns after their football team lost... We had violent thugs back in the good old days as well. Depending on who was playing, riots in the street were almost a weekly occurrence. | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 220.138.166.34 |
"I was taught to work hard, to drag myself out of the pit, to save up for what I wanted, and to respect the property of others." Exactly, Zed. When I was growing up we were dirt poor - we literally could not afford new clothes for school at one point. These criminals haven't a clue what hardship is. There seems to be an alarming, misplaced sense of entitlement amongst these people. I've heard some of them interviewed and they just keep saying they do it because they know they can get away with it. I have not an ounce of sympathy for them. My sympathy goes to the people they've terrorized, killed, injured, or robbed. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.8.29.143 |
Exactly, Huw. A sense of entitlement without responsibility. | ||
| Mick Curtis (Mick) Username: Mick Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.183.79.254 |
I agree with zed's comments here. One thing that irritates me as far as 'poverty' is concerned is that it's not measured by what we own or are able to afford, but, to borrow a phrase from Wikipedia, "Poverty is defined by the Government as ‘household income below 60 percent of median income’. The median is the income earned by the household in the middle of the income distribution." Therefore, measured like that, there is always going to be poverty, even if the least well off household has four holiday cottages and a fleet of Mercedes cars. It's nonsense. It needs to be a measure of what those households can afford, not how well off they are in relation to the rest of the population. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.253.77 |
Weber - those football riots weren't on this scale, and they rarely resulted in this kind of destruction. I grew up in the 70s, and those were dark times...but there was still a sense of something holding people back - a sense of community, however fragile. These bastards have no boundaries. Mick - damn right. That isn't poverty. Poverty is having to live in a cardboard shack, wtching your kids slowly die of starvation, being unable to afford food and clothes. Poverty isn't texting your mates on a Blackberry (I can't afford one of those), watching Sky Sports, and getting shitfaced and fucked-up on weed every weekend. It's probably moral poverty, yes, but that's another matter... | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.253.77 |
A sense of entitlement without responsibility. Yep, and it isn't just at the lower echelons of society, either...it seems to be the same with a lot of young people. They expect to come into their first jobs and get paid more than someone who's been doing that job for 20 years, they think they're entitled to own an expensive car when they first learn to drive, they assume it's they're right to have a mobile phone and an iPad. It scares me. There's some massive form of disconnect going on here; they are divorced from reality. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.79.49.60 |
"Tony, perhaps if you weren't so woolly in your comments, people might not misunderstand you? I'm not having a go - just saying, like." I think Greg is correct in what he says above about the debate fragmenting. I think that there are many layers to this and many reasons people are doing it, so we're probably going to talking about different things and hence not understand each other. I actually think that wooly statements might be the only legitimate ones at the moment - it's all too complicated and there are too many flags on the field. Time for debate later, I think rather as everyone seems to project onto this at the moment. I'll take debate seriously if it takes place weeks or months after these events. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.253.77 |
Well, I think we project onto this because we live with it. It's unavoidable, isn't it? This isn't something that's happening in some country thousands of miles away, it's right outside people's front doors - how else are we meant to try and make sense of this, apart from using our own life experiences? Debate always fragments, especially when it takes place on these kinds of forums. It's pointless, really, but, hey, it's better than watching two-day old footage of London being smashed up on the telly. I'm afraid that Tony saying things like "I'm with the rioters" isn't really doing anybody any favours. A statement like that is bound to be misunderstood. There's no political motivation to any of this - if anyone thinks there is, they're misguided. Sorry to offend any liberal sensibilities, but those people out burning our cities are absolute vermin. No amount of debate - either now or in a few months time - will change that. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.253.77 |
I'm with Huw: let's bring in Rutger Hauer. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.79.49.60 |
"Well, I think we project onto this because we live with it." I don't think that's the reason. I live in another country and I find myself projecting. This is literally like seeing shapes in the fire. "those people out burning our cities are absolute vermin." Okay, let's assume you're right. Why are they vermin? What made them into that? A refusal to engage with that question is tantamount to refusing to turning a blind eye to the problem. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.79.49.60 |
Rutger Hauer would just look confused and stare off mystically into the middle distance. You'd need Roy Baty to chase them around a rainy rooftop wearing nothing but a jockstrap and white tennis shoes. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.253.77 |
Proto, I'm not refusing to engage with that question at all. As Gary says somewhere above, we can hate and try to understand at the same time. They aren't mutually exclusive. Dead clever me; I can multi-task. Wanna see me juggle and drink a glass of water at the same time?  | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.79.49.60 |
Ack. Obviously that should read: "...is tantamount to turning a blind eye to the problem." | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.79.49.60 |
"Wanna see me juggle and drink a glass of water at the same time?" I'm pretty sure there's no icon for that. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.253.77 |
Also - and I keep saying this lately - some people are, you know, just cunts. Roy Batty in his nappy, clutching a pigeon. The rioters would be terrified of such madness... | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.253.77 |
If I could do that, I'd be an icon myself. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.79.9.227 |
There's a match - Batty in a nappy vs. Connery in a nappy (from Zardoz)? Tough call, that one. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.79.9.227 |
There's just the slightest chance I may have gone off topic. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.253.77 |
Connery might win because of that massive stone head. The cheat. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.79.9.227 |
But Batty would just hitch a ride, and well, you know what happens then... (yeah, take us seriously now everyone please) | ||
| Thomasb (Thomasb) Username: Thomasb Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.25.141.120 |
Been wondering about you all over here. Hope you're all safe! | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.79.9.227 |
Are you on Phobos? | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 178.116.57.88 |
I dont think poverty is at the root of the problems. It's a sense of being disconnected. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.79.9.227 |
Poverty is relative anyway. Most of us are poor compared to how the world will be in 200 years. Maybe. | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 220.138.163.64 |
Zed, we don't just need Rutger - although he could probably take care of London on his own - but Danny Trejo and Mickey Rourke as well. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.253.77 |
Rourke would kick everybody's arse, and then throw a massive hissy fit and punch a photographer before slouching away stroking his chihuaua. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.79.9.227 |
That reminds me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ltjg4qWE1Ro I started watching this for the grotesquerie, but it's actually very moving. I love Rourke even more now. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.79.9.227 |
Defo off topic now. I'm watching Battle Beyond the Stars and I'm sorry but there are fucking stars everywhere. (Maybe they meant film stars?) I repeat: I'm watching Battle Beyond the Stars. Robert Vaughn looks like he wants the set to fall on top of him, but we all know that wouldn't hurt at all. He was in the Magnificent Seven and now (i.e., 30 years ago) he is bouncing around on a plastic seat pretending to fly a spaceship. Oh, and there was Superman III. Poor bastard. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.253.77 |
I've always loved Rourke - my favourite actor of all time. I'd love to meet him. I'd probably faint if I did because I'm kinf of in awe of him. He bruns. He's damaged brilliance. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.153.149.165 |
http://throwyourselflikeseed.blogspot.com/2011/08/what-do-riots-mean.html | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
"bruns"? I meant, he burns, of course. | ||
| Simon Bestwick (Simon_b) Username: Simon_b Registered: 10-2008 Posted From: 86.24.209.217 |
At the risk of trivialising the issues... Amidst all the havoc and the hurly-burly, one still, small voice of sanity rises to the surface: http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/britain-reminded-that-melanie-phillip s-is-not-well-201108114183/ (Light relief, but I think they've actually hit it here...) | ||
| Stevie Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
I dont think poverty is at the root of the problems. It's a sense of being disconnected. I agree, Hubert. Poverty does not equate to the hatred against society we have seen this last week. We've always had poverty but what we lack nowadays is a sense of belonging to any kind of responsible society. Disenfranchisement, a lack of positive role models and any sense of moral education, festering resentment at authority figures and all those deemed the "haves" as opposed to the "have nots", understandable peer bonding against what is perceived as a hostile world to which they do not belong - these are the reasons young people today feel no connection to society and gleefully joined in these mindless attacks against what they see as the successful elite who don't give a fuck about them i.e. Us. Many of their apologists, in the news reports I've been glued to, have been describing their actions as "getting some" and "payback time". I've heard these so called "rioters" and "protestors" themselves cockily describe their actions as an orgy of "terror, mayhem and free stuff" and even heard one misguided teenage girl call Monday "the best day of her life"!! This needs to be understood... for this demented subculture the gloves finally came off this week. It's time for society to right the imbalances wrought by Thatcherism, the culture of greed, unrealistic and morally irresponsible advertising, the allowance of a disregarded underclass to develop by the powers that be (including New Labour to their undying shame), and the blissful disregard for teaching community values and plain decency and respect for all in our schools. I've been predicting this fucking shambles for two decades now and hope that at long last we, the people, start to realise the lessons our ancestors had to learn the hard way and stop this moral decline in its tracks... before we all slide back into a new fucking Dark Age. It may already be too late but that doesn't mean we give up. The fightback against this decadent malaise must start now!! | ||
| Kate (Kathleen) Username: Kathleen Registered: 09-2009 Posted From: 86.131.51.242 |
Sir Ian Bowler MP has some strong words to say about it too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZAgLX-9MhY | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 220.138.162.14 |
That was great, Lady P! | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.8.30.56 |
In a ghastly way this is funnier, I think. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzDQCT0AJcw&feature=related Perhaps he's bemused by the way the interviewer twice gets his name wrong. | ||
| Kate (Kathleen) Username: Kathleen Registered: 09-2009 Posted From: 86.131.51.242 |
I can't help thinking that, no matter what happens, things can only get worse from here. There isn't room for them all in prison, if they could even all be caught. And you can't educate people who don't want to learn. What happens if you cut their benefits by way of retribution? Even if they were inclined to try and get an actual job, employers shouldn't be obligated to hire someone with a criminal record, not when there are honest people in competition for the few jobs there are. What's left but a life on the streets, stealing, robbing and killing? I can't help seeing the world of A Clockwork Orange unfolding and it really scares me. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.79.21.223 |
Darcus Howe is quite odd. I'm not trying to belittle him when I say that he seems to display some symptoms of mental illness. I think the newscaster is just one of the many voices in his head. He's right to shut her down here, though. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.66.23.11 |
Here's my knee jerk reaction - If they can be roved to have broken windows, smash all the windows on their houses - even the council houses. Leave it to their own expense to carry out any repairs. If they stole, empty their houses of TV's, mobile phones etc. If they assaulted anyone, pin the twats down and kick seven shades out of them. A lot of them took their kids out to see what they could steal, this would show the kids that you reap what you sow and could well halt the progression into their adult lives of this belief that there are no consequences. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.66.23.11 |
proved | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.79.21.223 |
"I can't help seeing the world of A Clockwork Orange unfolding and it really scares me." Flipping heck, I started watching QUATERMASS 1979 with John Mills last night. Anyone who's seen it will realise what a mistake that was in light (in shadow) of what's going on now. As I get older I do have more sympathy and empathy for the middle-aged and old people who were confronted by the likes of The Sex Pistols in the '70s. It would feel like the end of days if you'd fought a war and then a couple of decades later saw your own kids/grandkids walking around wearing swastikas. But it wasn't the end, and neither is this. We need a brighter future to aim for, too. More Trek, less Mad Max. A man interviewed on Newsnight last night tentatively used the word "love". He almost flinched as he said it, as if expecting to be attacked. We need more of that. Nihilism is for cowards. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
Darcus Howe, bless him, has a one-track mind. he tried to make out that everything is about race. I saw just as many white and asian faces rioting on TV as black ones. It's isn't about race; it's about social issues. Proto - he always strikes me as having mental problems, too. Seems to be muttering to himself all the time. It's like Harry Redknapp and his Del-boy twitch. | ||
| Kate (Kathleen) Username: Kathleen Registered: 09-2009 Posted From: 86.131.51.242 |
"We need a brighter future to aim for, too. More Trek, less Mad Max." Is there room for BATTLE ROYALE in there too? | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.66.23.11 |
Prince Charles will be visiting Salford to inspect the damage and already the animal rights activists are up in arms about his choice of wardrobe for the event. He'll be wearing headgear made from the fur of a rare white arctic fox. Apparently he asked the Queen what he should wear for this type of occasion and she said "Salford? wear the fox hat." | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 178.116.57.88 |
confronted by the likes of The Sex Pistols in the '70s I smelled a rat from the start. I felt sure there was an old fraud behind the punk thing and I was proven right. And, oh boy, how afraid we all were, us Moody Blues, Pink Floyd and Genesis fans.  Eventually some good came out of all the rubbish, but rubbish most of it certainly was. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
(Never mind the) Bollox - there was some superb stuff during the punk scene. | ||
| Stevie Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
No one should play down the seriousness of what we witnessed this week by likening it to any earlier youth cultures - be it punks, mods, rockers, teddy boys, or whatever. This was the greatest eruption of mass criminal disturbance England has seen in hundreds of years. Serious politicians were calling for curfews and soldiers on the streets, and it could yet happen. Things have calmed down for now but English society will never be the same again. Positive lessons need to be learnt and learnt quickly! | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 178.116.57.88 |
As for solidarity - that Malaysian student (who had probably nothing to do with the rioting) with a broken jaw being helped to his feet, after which his 'helpers' run off with his wallet and laptop, says it all. | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
Thomasb asked: "Been wondering about you all over here. Hope you're all safe!" Thanks for asking, Thomas. I think we're a bit shellshocked by it all really. What do you Americans make of it? Alexicon jests: "My God, this virus is spreading quickly! Just heard on the local wires that Poundland and two charity shops have been looted in Penzance. Terror runs rampant in west Cornwall." Hey, hasn't anyone else noticed that Alex has popped in on a rare visit? Hi, Alex, how ya doin'? *waves* Incidentally, joking aside, our village charity shop (Help the Aged, now AgeUK) WAS actually broken into a few weeks back. Not part of the riots/looting obviously, but that says a lot for the state of the nation really, doesn't it? | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
Here's a funny exchange between my hubby and his sister yesterday. As background, we keep an eye on their house while they're away on holiday. So, hubby and s-i-l were making plans for this, and the conversation went something like this: S-i-l: (thinking about perishables in the house like milk, fruit and veg) Have a look around while you're there and take anything you like. Hubby: Should I burn the place down afterwards? Oh, the joys of living with an Irishman with a wicked Irish sense of humour! | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 178.116.57.88 |
http://batterydesigns.spreadshirt.co.uk/ |