| Author | Message | ||
     Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.137.168.78 |
 The above icon (an image by Tony Lovell) is, for me, a symbol or flag for the battle of real books against ebooks. | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
Ah, but I don't believe real books are dead and buried yet, Des (Tony's image looking a bit like a coffin). Long live the paper book! That's my motto.  | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.137.168.78 |
I agree, Caroline. I meant it was an ironic flag - bringing it home what *could* happen. Or doesn't it work that way? | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
Oh yes, it does work that way. It was just me making the point that real books are still live and kicking. I didn't think you meant real books ARE dead. I know you're a real book fan! Although, didn't you say on another thread you now have a Kindle in the family? Are you tempted by it? | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.137.168.78 |
Tempted, yes. But it seems so anaemic when I sense the aura of someone reading it. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.66.23.11 |
One of the girls at work enthusing about her kindle yesterday - a direct quote - "It means I've been able to get rid of 4 big boxes of books from the house." Reducing books to an electonic file to be read on a crappy looking piece of plastic has devalued real books as physical objects. No longer do people seem to look at a book and say "Wow, I like the look of that." I hope every kindle on the planet spontaneously combusts tomorrow. | ||
| John Forth (John) Username: John Registered: 05-2008 Posted From: 82.24.1.217 |
Why does there need to be a battle? This isn't an either/or situation. Owning a Kindle or any other e-reader doesn't mean that you stop buying 'real' books (I haven't), nor does it devalue the content of those books. Remember, although you may love the look/feel of a printed book, there are a lot of people out there who just want to consume the content. Frequently, that's all I want too. This hostility towards giving people an alternative way to get access to, and enjoy, fiction and non-fiction absolutely baffles me. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.137.168.78 |
I'm with Weber. Furthermore, books are part of the text, part of the dream, part of the symphony of texture and story, and vice versa. Audio-books, ebooks are useful accessories, obviously - but only for people who can't or won't read real books otherwise. It's like being given postcards with reproduced paintings on instead of going to the gallery. Or watching films on a laptop without enough bandwidth or, going back in time, to listen to music on a c60 cassette. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.151.146.214 |
Kindles just seem to me to be the single most pointless invention of all time. They have so many basic flaws compared with the bit of technology they're supposed to be the alternative to... I can't understand why anyone would want one, unless they've lost an arm in which case a kindle would make things easier. For anyone else, what's the problem with reading a real book? | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.151.146.214 |
Kindles are the answer to a problem that doesn't exist. | ||
| John Forth (John) Username: John Registered: 05-2008 Posted From: 82.24.1.217 |
>Furthermore, books are part of the text, part of the dream, part of the symphony of texture and story, and vice versa.< Sorry, Des, but not everybody feels that way. Much as I enjoy a nicely crafted edition, more often than that I just want to read the story. The delivery method, how it's consumed (along as it doesn't affect the enjoyment of the story), is frankly by the by. Now, it sounds like reading a book on a Kindle would affect your enjoyment of that piece of work. That's fine. Turn to the printed version. But I don't understand why that means you have to position yourself in opposition to the alternatives. >Kindles are the answer to a problem that doesn't exist.< I'm going on a two week holiday during which I expect to get through a half dozen, good-sized novels - how do I carry them all without weighing down my luggage unnecessarily? There's one. You may not see the need, but there are people out there who have found e-readers a useful and convenient alternative. Wishing they would all explode tomorrow just sounds mean-spirited to me. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.137.168.78 |
Meaning-spirited, not mean-spirited!  Of course, I see all the 'advantages' of the Kindle etc. I've seen them for myself. But it's a different experience from real books, I feel. Dickens seems diluted when I read him on a Kindle. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.253.77 |
Fucking hell, not this old chestnut again. As is usual lately, I find myself agreeing wholeheartedly with Mr. Forth. Kindles are the answer to a problem that doesn't exist. No they're not. Storage is a very real issue. I barely have space in my house for more books, so books I merely want to read and not keep as artefacts I tend to buy for the Kindle. It's also a great little writer's tool: for reading stuff you've been asked to blurb, proof reading and final-round editing without having to print out lots of paper, and carrying around lots of short story collections and diverse reference material. The paper book is alive. The ebook is alive. I'll take both, thanks. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.253.77 |
Dickens seems diluted when I read him on a Kindle. That's down to you, Des, not the machine. You are reading exactly the same text as you would in a paper book. Your mind is making it seem diluted. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.151.146.214 |
"so books I merely want to read and not keep as artefacts I tend to buy for the Kindle" So kindle is for reading shit books? or the really average ones, or the ones your too embarassed to admit to reading? | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.253.77 |
No. It's for reading mass market paperbacks I don't want to keep after I've read them because I'm not some anal weirdo who keeps every book he's ever bought. And books I'm taking a chance on by an author I've never heard of, so they might end up being crap and rather than being stuck with them taking up room on a shelf when I give up after 50 pages I can delete them. That kind of thing, like. | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
I wonder why people get quite heated about this issue? Some of us prefer paper books and some of us have found the benefit of e-books - no problem. My worry is the marketeers who would have us kill off paper books so that there's nothing left but e-books. Then, I reckon it would be a very sad state of affairs. I love real books. I make no apology for that. To me, it's just not the same if I read words on a screen as opposed to words on a page. But there's room for both in today's world, I guess - I just don't want to see the end of real books (as we seem to have seen the end of real bookshops to a large extent - at least in this part of the country). | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.137.168.78 |
The Kindle is so good, books will gradually vanish. There's no winning. We just need a flag for the last battle. For the history books.... | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.253.77 |
I prefer paper books. But I also enjoy the benefits of ebooks. Des, books will never vanish completely. Vinyl didn't. ebooks will eventually take over from mass market paperbacks in a lot of cases, and paper books will be mostly limited edition hard covers. Both will still exist. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.253.77 |
Literature will still be there, for those of us who want it. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.151.146.214 |
"ebooks will eventually take over from mass market paperbacks in a lot of cases, and paper books will be mostly limited edition hard covers" That sounds fucking awful to me. We won't be able to just pass on a book we've read and really liked. The best we ca do is tell someone to download it. Because it won't exist as a physical object. I have clear outs of stuff I don't want to keep when storage becomes a real issue, I give old books to friends or charity shops or a local theatre I'm involved with. Or I sell them and get a few quid. I don't want my only books to be limeted edition hardcovers. I want the cheap paperbacks with the cheesy covers. I don't want an expensive piece of plastic that can break down and stop me from being able to read anything until I fork out another three figure sum for a new shitty piece of plastic and then fuck about trying to download all the files (coz they're not books) back onto it. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.151.146.214 |
I discover new authors by walking through bookshops and libraries and finding good book covers etc. Online shopping for books is always very specific for me - when I can't find something in the shops. You can't browse online bookshops the way you do a real shop. half the experience of finding a new author is that first "Hmmm, what's that, it looks interesting/cheesy/shit" moment when you first pick it up in a bookshop. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.253.77 |
Times change; we move on. There's no fighting it. I buy about 99% of my books online, because the bookshops hardly ever have what I want in stock. That's what I get for not wanting to read Katie Price's latest ghost-written turd. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.253.77 |
There'll still be bookshops, but maybe, just maybe, they won't be big chains. They might be small independants, catering to specific tastes, selling small press titles instead of celebrity wank-books. I want that. | ||
| John Forth (John) Username: John Registered: 05-2008 Posted From: 82.24.1.217 |
>I discover new authors by walking through bookshops and libraries and finding good book covers etc.< Fine if it works for you. I tend to find the stock in most bookshops to be so arbitary that it's very uncommon to stumble across something that looks interesting. Most of my reading choices are driven by recommendations by friends, or blurbs by authors I enjoy and respect. The book cover is just packaging, intended to catch you eye. One useful thing I find with e-books is the ability to download a sample to read at your leisure. Reading the first chapter or two of a book is, for me, a far more effective way of telling whether I'll get on with the book or not. Certainly more so than the cover image. And, yes, I know you can stand in a bookshop and read the first chapter if you want, but I don't really like to do that. I'm more a "buy something or fuck off" kind of person.  | ||
| John Forth (John) Username: John Registered: 05-2008 Posted From: 82.24.1.217 |
>I wonder why people get quite heated about this issue?< Ach, it's not so much the issue, Caroline, but more an irritation that in some circles admitting to buying e-books is tantamount to saying you were once one of the firemen in Farenheit 451! | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 2.24.1.212 |
What Weber said. All of it. Not often I say that. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 2.24.1.212 |
Why in the name of fuck does the Kindle have a name that directly suggests the burning of books? | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.145.81.228 |
NOt often you say that... I think it's a first!!! | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.145.81.228 |
If I buy a book by a new author and don't like it, I give it away or sell it. It doesn't take room on my shelves if I don't want it to. When you think about it, if literature goes the depressing way that Zed is predicting and, unless you have this expensive piece of lastic or the cash to fork out for some hideously expensive limited edition hardcover from some hard to find back street indie bookshop, you won't be able to actually read, it gives all the ignorant twats out there the best excuse ever to not read anything. Even if all they read is Harry potter or Dan Brown, it's something. And it can get them onto better stuff. Because books as they are now are affordable there's no real excuse not to read as a hobby/passtime. If you're forking out a minimum of a couple of hundred to be able to read the mass market stuff... | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.253.77 |
I wouldn't exactly say that mass market paperbacks are affordable to the masses - £7.99 is a lot of money, especially if you get through them fast. My mother - an avid reader; she gets through 4 or 5 novels a week - can no longer afford to buy books. The kind of stuff I like to read is hardly ever available in mass market editions, so I end up paying £15 or £20 plus for a novel (sometimes just for a paperback). After an initial outlay on a reader, I can get the kind of reading material I like for a couple of quid a pop. As John says, though, I don't see why we have to take sides here. I like both paper books and ebooks, and expect to continue to do so. Oh, and nobody I know who reads Dan Brown or Harry Potter (and I knew quite a few) has gone on to read Dickens or Conrad or Dosteovsky. They just buy Dan Brown and Harry Potter rip-offs. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.253.77 |
FYI, I'm reading mostly paper books at the minute (my prefered medium). But when I go on holiday to the Lakes in a couple of weeks, I'll be packing my Kindle...hopefully to proof read (and make editorial notes on) my current novel in the tent. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.253.77 |
) | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.145.81.228 |
Surely someone who reads Dan Brown is better than someone who's proud to have never read a book in his life (and I know a couple of people like that!). Even if all a person reads is Jordans latest ghostwritten shit they're still reading... and there's still hope. I get strange enough looks at work at the moment because I've always got a book in my pocket or on my desk if it's a larger format... | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.253.77 |
I'd rather people didn't read at all than read Jordan's books. If that makes me a literary snob, then I stand accused! I no longer know anyone who's proud not to read. I used to know a few, but I cut them out of my life. If you don't read, I don't want to know you. Harsh, maybe, but I have little in common with people who don't read so don't bother with them. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.253.77 |
I'd rather read a book than talk to someone who doesn't read.  | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.145.81.228 |
I agree with you on the last point. the people I know who don't read are all bloody stupid people and show their ignorance every time they open their mouths. I have no time for any of them. If I could cut them out of my life completely I would. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.145.81.228 |
Actually i might get a screen grab of Joels quote above, print it out and frame it. It will probably never happen again. I discovered Rupert Thomson's books because I was walking through waterstone one day and a copy of The Insult just fell off the shelf as i walked past. I was about to put it back when I glanced at the blurb, thought hmmm..., opened it to read the first page... Half an hour later the assistant comes over and asks me a) if I'm comfortable because I'd settled into a chair with the book and b) if I was going to buy it because I was already 40 pages in. I bought it and he's now easily in my top 5 writers ever. The following week I found a copy of Deep Blue Bliss by Lesley Glaister that someone had put in with the Thomsons. That got me onto reading her books as well. She's in my top 10 (most weeks). These aren't books or authors that I would normally have read and I would never have got into without the chance finds in Waterstone. My mother (who occasionally reads Dan Brown) really likes Lesley Glaister now as well. I lent her one and she's borrowed several others since. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
Des & Joel - I understand your leeriness about the Kindles, but there's a singular and wonderful use for them that I simply can't believe even you would disagree with... not if you value reading, and the availability of books, like you say you do.... Right now, one can go onto google and download any number of books in the public domain, that otherwise would never be found - they'd never be reprinted in hardcopy form, and so they'd either be read this way, or not at all. To deny this easy outlet (because let's face it, it's quite nice on the eyes reading on a Kindle rather than on a computer, if those are the only two choices - and they are, in this example), is to actually promote a kind of "censorship": to desire denying readers, books. Here's one example among thousands: SIR CHARLES GRANDISON, by Samuel Richardson, one of the now forgotten and yet most widely read/influential novels of the 17th/18th Centuries, is available for free download from google books. It's been photocopied from a rare public library's copy. You will NEVER see this book again in print, let alone find used copies. But thanks to the now, the Kindles of the world, anyone can access it for FREE, and read it, anywhere in the world. The Advocate for the Devil asks you two the vital question, then: Why do you two want to deny readers, their books? | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.137.168.78 |
Craig, I'm brainstormin' a bit - people are denying themselves reading books by trying to read them on Kindle etcc. which is a second-class experience compared to reading it in a time-tested book-shape in the hand. The prototype beta ebooks are not time tested. Who knows whether they ever will be time-tested, when people come to realise they're short-changing themeslves. And saddling themselves with technical upkeep just to keep the books. As to Samuel Richardson, I shall never forget the experience of reading his Pamela from a 2ndhand Everyman edition. Everyman. And there are loads of Charles Grandisons about - and I recall someone re-publishing it recent years (Penguin Classics?). A book is a book. An ebook is something else. You've not read a book if you've only read it in an ebook. imo. (In some of my RTRs I hope I have shown how the experience of reading the physical book was intrinsic to not only that book's experience but also to its meaning). | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.137.168.78 |
As an aside, we should never steer away from discrete debates (like this one, with strong opinions from Joel and Weber) just because they are subsumed by a *seemingly* bigger debate. Reality is built with several modules that brick-build the whole - and one brick out of place can bring the whole edifice down. Brainstorming is one way to stress-test the world. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
people are denying themselves reading books by trying to read them on Kindle etcc. which is a second-class experience compared to reading it in a time-tested book-shape in the hand...when people come to realise they're short-changing themeslves. And saddling themselves with technical upkeep just to keep the books. In your opinion, Des. You write this as if these are proven facts. They aren't. It's your opinion. Reading an ebook isn't a "second-class" experience at all. Book snobbery? A new prejudice for the technological age. Reading is reading. The medium isn't the message. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.137.168.78 |
Nobody *knows*. We are all brainstorming here. (Zed: I did stick in an 'imo' above. Everything in this debate (and most debates on the internet) must be imo or iyo). | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.137.168.78 |
I believe that ebooks will eventually put off wavering readers. (Real books entrap them (see the HA of HA)}. (Last bit in brackets a quip). And the medium is often the message. Some books I read recently would have a different meaning if not in that format. imo. (As I hope I've actually showed here and there in my RTRs) | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
Ah, well, we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. As Mr. Strantzas says elsewhere, the real debate should be how do we get people reading again (and recent figures show that people are buying more books since ereaders became a big thing last year). | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.137.168.78 |
Yes, that's another debate. An important one, true. In the long run, I hope you're right - and that I'm wrong that ebooks will eventually put off wavering readers. Like television put off people's social activities etc etc in the Fifties and Sixties. Television was a tragedy in those years (as I can attest). And all this technology to day. History books will have some hindsight on it one day. | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 85.222.86.21 |
A question: If you were offered two contracts to have all your work published in digital format, or in the traditional book format, which would you choose. Bear in mind that they would pay you the same for both. I'm sure I'm right in stating the obvious, but I was just curious to see what answers people might give for explaining why. | ||
| Stevie Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
People are welcome to their Kindles but it's not for me. The argument about it being a way of reading books one doesn't want to keep does not compute in Stevie world. I wouldn't read or want to own a book I didn't want to keep - as my regularly updated personal library on Facebook illustrates. That may make me a pain-in-the-arse purist to some but I don't give a feck... books are sacred objects, to be cherished and protected. That's my final word on this hoary old chestnut of a non-debate. Incidentally, Des, the icon at the top of this thread is the image I would have used for the cover of the HA of HA... that dark space just cries out to be filled by a title. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
Yes, very informative, Stevie... Frank: I'd probably take the print off and then sell the digital rights to someone else. It's a pointless question, that, because it would never happen that way in the real world. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
the print offer...(bastard typos) | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
This isn't a metter of ebooks versus print books. We can have both. Why can't some people see that? | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 61.216.201.232 |
I keep wondering the same thing, Zed... | ||
| Stevie Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
Kindles have a valid reason to exist and people have a right to use them, as I keep stating, but they're not for me... the experience offers nothing I'm remotely interested in. | ||
| Stephen Theaker (Stephen_theaker) Username: Stephen_theaker Registered: 12-2009 Posted From: 94.169.3.199 |
Amazing to think that it is still less than a year since Kindle launched in the UK, given the impact it's had. The bigger Waterstones in Birmingham already looks like a gift shop downstairs, although I suppose that's not just down to Kindle - it's Kindle on top of all the bookselling Amazon was already doing. It's always been hard for Waterstones to compete with Amazon's wide range of books, its low prices, and (not a minor issue) the good condition of the books on sale. But I think Kindle's the straw that's prodding them over the edge. It was very nice on holiday this week to have The Guardian delivered to the Kindle first thing each morning, and that finished I had dozens of books and audiobooks on there to choose from. On the iPad, I had a bunch of graphic novels, the British Library's brilliant 19th Century Books app, articles, stories and interviews in the McSweeney's app, and access if I needed it to hundreds more books stored in Dropbox. It was very nice to know, given where I live and what was happening here while I was away, that a big chunk of my book collection would survive any fire... | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
the experience offers nothing I'm remotely interested in. Reading? | ||
| Stevie Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
You're entitled to enjoy reading off a screen, Zed, as much as I am entitled to prefer reading the literature I love off paper in a printed and bound book form. Why do Kindle readers get so touchy about this issue? It really puzzles me... | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 178.116.57.88 |
Pro: when you need to look up the preponderance of a name, term, word or string of words in a given work, it's real easy to find. Con: by 2050 the average library will not only contain stacks of books, but also truckloads of outmoded electronic gameboy-like devices, without which it will be impossible to read certain books. If you're lucky some will still work. Another con: texts will become easier to tamper with. Yet another con: real books are relatively cheap. Gameboy-like devices aren't. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
I'm not touchy at all - I'm just bemused why some people seem to think that ebooks are going to kill paper books. I enjoy both - with a prefence for paper books. Your closed mindedness on this subject is starling. I'm a reader. I read. The medium by which I read is a secondary issue. As a writer, I also fee the same way. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
feel (Fucking typos. Again) | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
Gameboy-like devices aren't Now that's touchy - Hubert, you betray a pre-established prejudice with that choice of words. I really don't get why this is an issue. The real issue is that we need to get more people reading - whatever medium they use, paper, ebook, phone app, iPod. Just get them reading. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
I don't know anyone who uses a Kindle who doesn't buy a lot of paper books too. I know a lot of people who read only paper books and refuse point-blank to entertan the notion of ebooks. An interesting observation, that. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.137.168.78 |
"People are welcome to their Kindles..." Indeed. There is one in this house with which I've dabbled. Another worry of mine is overload of choice - something's that's happened with music, films, games, photographs etc It stops the pleasure of searching, finding, reading in treasured, slowly savoured amounts, then preserving on the bookshelf. If you don't want to keep anything, OK. But if you do, isn't this technology saddling you with the upkeep of that technology...upkeep and change of format, improvement etc.? (question mark) | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.137.168.78 |
I agree to get people reading. But no-one's proved (how can they?) that, in the long term, when the novelty has worn off, that ebooks won't eventually put off wavering readers. I think it will. Others think it won't. That's why it's an issue, Zed, imo. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
Des - YOU CAN DO BOTH! Is anybody even listening to that point? | ||
| Stevie Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
Paper books, like cars, will eventually become a luxury enjoyed only by the rich. That is an inevitable, if no less tragic, result of technological progress - and not something to blame the Kindle or Kindle readers for. But that doesn't mean I, or anyone else of a like mind, needs to buy into the new technology NOW. If I'm lucky I may have another 30-35 years reading life left to me which I intend to fill reading the books I love in the format I love ONLY... what happens after that is of no concern to me - and why should it be? | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
Why would ebooks put of wavering readers? Surely the ease, the avilability of titles, and the low purchase price of ebooks (after an initial outlay on a reader) would push them towards reading? | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
Stevie, with respect, if it's of no interest to you then why bother contributing to the debate? It clearly is of interest to you. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.137.168.78 |
Because it imbues them into something other than book-reading and when the novelty wears off so will they. It may lose readers, instead of gaining them? It's just a spin-off from the internet? Question marks, still brainstorming on things that seem instinctively likely to me. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.137.168.78 |
I think Steveie has the right to say he has no interest in ebooks but still interested in contributing to the debate (to explain why he's not interested in them?) | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
Sorry, but I just don't see there logic here, Des. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
The logic about your point above, not about Stevie. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.137.168.78 |
Yes, Zed, you can do both. nobody denies that. My point is that this may be a deterrent for people who would otherwise have transferred from ebooks to books, for the reason I've speculated upon. Then they don't read at all, because the kindles etc have lost their novelty. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
Sorry, but that just doesn't make sense to me, Des. Isn't that the same as saying the novelty of reading a hardback would wear off, or a B Format paperback? | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
And why do people have to transfer from ebooks to books? These are simply formats, and we have a whole new generation raised on technology and endless choice of format. | ||
| Stevie Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
Exactly! I love literature with a passion that has been one of the driving forces of my entire life. I respect people's right to choose ebooks over the printed form and see trying to deny them that right as a pointless fight against progress. It's going to happen and the effects it will have on literature and the reading public in the future are out of our control so why worry about them. What bugs me is when Kindle readers (not you, Zed) insult me personally as some kind of anachronistic throwback to less enlightened times - those kind of morons (and I'm meeting them with increasing regularity) do the burgeoning ebook scene a disservice and can go fuck themselves, imho. That's why I'm interested in this issue, which I still insist is a non-debate but a matter of personal preference. End of story (well, lets hope not, eh...) | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 178.116.57.88 |
the low purchase price of ebooks I suspect that will be a significant hurdle for many readers - not the low price in itself, of course (you may be right on that score, Zed), but having to cough up money without receiving a solid object in return. I confess I have never paid anything for software. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.137.168.78 |
Hypothesis: Just assuming the ebook doesn't give the full pleasure - as we understand it - of reading books. In my experience this assumption is correct. You may disagree. fair enough. But just assuming I'm right, when the format changes into something more expensive or the reader of ebooks loses interest in kindles, he may not be enticed to buy real books. | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 61.216.201.232 |
People keep talking about this in terms of choosing one form over another, as if there are two opposing sides. What Zed and I are trying to get through to people is that it is a good thing to have the choice of reading a book in different formats. I like having the choice to read on my Kindle as well as reading all the 'physical' books that I own. In the same way, I like having the choice of listening to music on vinyl records, CDs, or on my ipod. I don't understand why so many people seem threatened by this. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.137.168.78 |
Yes, that's been accepted, Huw. My point is that that is not necessarily a good thing, as ebooks may deter readers to stay readers. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
Amen, Huw. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
I still find your logic baffling, Des. | ||
| John Forth (John) Username: John Registered: 05-2008 Posted From: 217.20.16.180 |
Des, out of curiosity, what is a 'wavering reader'? I don't think I've ever encountered anyone with an uncertainty over whether they want to read or not. Even if it's just Dan Brown and JK Rowling, they either read or they don't. The medium doesn't make a difference. As to the romance/magic of a physical book contributing to the reading experience - I'm afraid I just don't recognise that at all. A few months ago I read two Graham Joyce books in quick succession: The Silent Land and The Limits of Enchantment. The former I read in hardback, the latter on the Kindle. I can quite comfortably say that I felt no difference in the reading experience whatsoever. The content is king for me. But none of this matters when you consider Zed's point above: >YOU CAN DO BOTH!< Which I think needs repeating. Talk of battles and wars strikes me as a bit silly. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.66.23.11 |
As I said in pretty much my opening post, a girl in my work has used buying a kindle as an excuse to rid her house of hundreds of real books... If it comes down to the nightmare future Zed describes, people who waver about reading will be put off by the large cost of the initial outlay on the reading device (which will be outmoded after only a few years anyway as all these gadgets always are). more cons Battery life The short shelf life of any electronic device compared to a real book - a real ook will never just stop working because of simple age (well not for about 300 years when the paper rots physically) in a few years when the currently ubiquitous USB cable has been superceded, you'll all have to change your ereaders (if they still work) | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.137.168.78 |
I'm not trying to be logical. I said near the beginning that this is brainstorming - which is a form of stress-testing ebooks and their fans. (Brainstormming formed from views that I *instinctively* believe). | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 61.216.201.232 |
Me too, Zed. Who's to say that any given reader will find 'full pleasure' in a book in any format? | ||
| John Forth (John) Username: John Registered: 05-2008 Posted From: 217.20.16.180 |
People keep talking about this in terms of choosing one form over another, as if there are two opposing sides. What Zed and I are trying to get through to people is that it is a good thing to have the choice of reading a book in different formats. Exactly, Huw. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
the nightmare future Zed describes Oh, yes, that living hell of both paper books and ebooks, and being able to utilise both. I may kill myself at the very thought. Battery life? A Kindle battery lasts for 3 weeks of solid reading. If you suddenly get stuck with a flat battery, you're a bit silly for not keeping it charged. I've had masss market paperback books that fell apart after one read. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.66.23.11 |
"ebooks will eventually take over from mass market paperbacks in a lot of cases, and paper books will be mostly limited edition hard covers." "There'll still be bookshops, but maybe, just maybe, they won't be big chains. They might be small independants, catering to specific tastes, selling small press titles instead of celebrity wank-books." that nightmare future... although if we could get rid of some of the celebrity books it might be nice. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
"There'll still be bookshops, but maybe, just maybe, they won't be big chains. They might be small independants, catering to specific tastes, selling small press titles instead of celebrity wank-books." I don't see that as a nightmare. I see it as paradise. | ||
| Stevie Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
This is not a battle! But that still does not mean that someone, like myself, who gets no pleasure out of the ebook experience should be pilloried as some kind of blinkered 45 year old doddering fogey. I don't like reading off a screen, as I find the experience irritating in the extreme, and I am entitled to my preferences. I don't like listening to music through headphones either, or watching cinematic movies on a TV, or eating takeaways in the street, etc... it's all a matter of personal preference - not warfare! | ||
| Stephen Theaker (Stephen_theaker) Username: Stephen_theaker Registered: 12-2009 Posted From: 94.169.3.199 |
"But that still does not mean that someone, like myself, who gets no pleasure out of the ebook experience should be pilloried as some kind of blinkered 45 year old doddering fogey." How about a quote to show the kind of pillorying you mean? | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 61.216.201.232 |
"This is not a battle! But that still does not mean that someone, like myself, who gets no pleasure out of the ebook experience should be pilloried as some kind of blinkered 45 year old doddering fogey." I haven't seen any evidence of anyone treating you or anyone else in this way, Stevie. And once again, people don't seem to be able to grasp that a lot of people like being able to choose how they read their books. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
I used to think like that, Stevie, until I actually tried a Kindle - read a book on it. It's nothing like reading off a computer screen. It's much the same as reading a physical book, to be honest. | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 178.116.57.88 |
Well, perhaps it is only a matter of getting used to a novel way of reading. *sigh* | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
 | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.137.168.78 |
Someone asked what a 'wavering reader' is. I'd say it is someone not yet persuaded to commit a good part of their time to reading fiction. I think a real book might persuade him more than an electronic book -- and the latter could indeed be a deterrent to read fiction by being more associated with (or more infected by) 'easier-effort' aspects of electronic entertainment. So it's not a question of having both choices (real books and ebook) - which may be good for individuals here, fair enough - but a question of whether the availability of ebooks is long-term beneficial to the fiction industry. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
Well, tomorrow, as I head to Waterstones in Deansgate to take part in an event devoted to Urban Horror with Ramsey, Joel, Conrad Williams and Tom Fletcher, I shall probably be reading my Kindle on the train. When I get to Waterstones I'll buy a couple of physical books to take home with me. | ||
| Stevie Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
I have tried, thanks to someone in work, and didn't like it. The pillorying I talk off hasn't been on this site as I stated above (or why would I stay here) but is happening increasingly amongst readers I talk to in the face-to-face world (you know... reality). I have faced allegations of being some kind of hopelessly anachronistic anal weirdo because of the pride I take in my personal library and the exclusivity with which I stock it. This demeaning of what is considered "odd" (rather than discernment) by the sheep-like mass populace is part of the knee-jerk moral malaise in society that I'm forever giving off about. I don't like ebooks. Live with it! | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
Could we have a list of your least favourite ebooks? | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 178.116.57.88 |
 | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.66.23.11 |
Zed, would you prefer that people read the mass market trash, or that they read nothing? | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
Define mass market trash. But that's not what I'm saying, anyway, so why do you ask? | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
People can read what they want, how they want. That's kind of my point. | ||
| Mick Curtis (Mick) Username: Mick Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.183.79.254 |
I have recently started to use a Kindle app on my iPad and have absolutely no problem reading on it - it's fine. I do, however, favour holding a 'real' book over this presumably because until recently that's all I've ever done. And I'd rather look at real shelves of books at home rather than a virtual one on a handheld device, but the experience of the tale is the one that counts, and I'm happy to read stuff on the iPad. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
Mick's comments kind of deconstruct this issue very well. Do you buy books to read, or as ornaments? I love books on my shelves, but that's a completely different thing to purely reading them. We have to face it that a lot of people see books only as something to read, disposable entertainment, and not a nice thing to have on a shelf. This is why ebooks have taken off, I reckon. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.137.168.78 |
I think it comes down to choice. There is obviously no argument with anyone here choosing either method, or both. Those in this thread with doubts about ebooks were, I feel, also thinking of longer-term things. For me, I have worries when electronic fiction-reading (as a current novelty) is *generally* intermingling with the enforced disposability of 'easier-effort' electronic entertainment etc. Reading fiction is a vocation of concentration, which somehow to me doesn't seem suited to any screen, however amenable that screen is. And that fear extends (as a debating-point) to the risk of deterring 'wavering readers' (defined above) to the possible detriment of the fiction industry in the future, when that industry possesses the already centuries-tried product-of-product at its fingertips to exploit: the wonderful book. | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 178.116.57.88 |
Just discovered another PRO: reading hefty tomes like The Guide to Supernatural Fiction in bed or reclining on a sofa can be a real drag. Wherever you position the book, you're constantly aware of its considerable weight and this hampers the reading experience. I want to forget I'm holding a book. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.66.23.11 |
When I referred to battery life, I wasn't just referring to how long they last on a single charge, I was thinking of how long they physically last. Rechargable batteries can only be charged up so many times. In a couple of years you'll find the batteries dying on you quicker and quicker, not retaining charge. And I bet they'll be bloody expensive to replace. If of course the e-reader in question hasn't already needed to be replaced because your ebook is outmoded and you can no longer load anything onto it... | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.137.168.78 |
Anyway, on this issue, I hope most people here are right, and I am wrong. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.66.23.11 |
Define mass market trash. Pretty much the same as you've referred to several times in this thread - celebrity turds was one of your phrases of choice I believe. | ||
| Stephen Theaker (Stephen_theaker) Username: Stephen_theaker Registered: 12-2009 Posted From: 94.169.3.199 |
Ebooks are not really a novelty - Fictionwise have been around since 2000, Baen opened their free library in 1999. People are reading ebooks on Kindles now, but before that they were reading them on PDAs, Rocket eBooks and other devices. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.66.23.11 |
Just discovered another PRO: reading hefty tomes like The Guide to Supernatural Fiction in bed or reclining on a sofa can be a real drag. Wherever you position the book, you're constantly aware of its considerable weight and this hampers the reading experience. I want to forget I'm holding a book. If a book's that heavy I lie it on my pillow and read it lying on my front... unlike paperbacks, with something that size you don't need to worry about damage to the spine... | ||
| Stephen Theaker (Stephen_theaker) Username: Stephen_theaker Registered: 12-2009 Posted From: 94.169.3.199 |
"Just discovered another PRO: reading hefty tomes like The Guide to Supernatural Fiction in bed or reclining on a sofa can be a real drag. Wherever you position the book, you're constantly aware of its considerable weight and this hampers the reading experience. I want to forget I'm holding a book." Absolutely. My wife gave up reading Under the Dome in hardback because it was just too impractical for her to read - and then it was the first thing she read on her Kindle. According to research referenced by Mslexia in their article "Three Cures for Mslexia", 78% of women rate reading as an important leisure activity, compared to just 58% of men. A Kindle suits smaller hands much better than a big chunky hardback, and I think that's been a factor in the Kindle's success. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
A Kindle suits smaller hands much better than a big chunky hardback, and I think that's been a factor in the Kindle's success. That's a good point, you know. I have small hands, and have always had trouble reading big hardback books (hence my lifelong preference for paperbacks ; hardbacks are nicer ornaments, though. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.137.168.78 |
You've convinced me that this recent invigoration of the ebook is here to stay, and nothing others say or do will change that. Not a flag for a book crusade at the head of this thread, after all, but a potential memorial for what they have been in the past? | ||
| Matthew Fryer (Matthew_fryer) Username: Matthew_fryer Registered: 08-2009 Posted From: 90.195.182.194 |
I think traditional paper books will be around for a while longer. Despite the internet's enormous success with electronic availability of porn, I'm still seeing copies of Razzle and Men Only on my newsagent's top shelf. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
What little I've used an e-book (the Nook), it became clear that though reading is pretty much uniform on it, reading in natural daylight is just SO much better, than reading by incandescent or fluorescent or chthonic light. So people will stop reading their books at night, and turn to other nocturnal pleasures - TV, drugs, illicit sexual activities. Thank god for my books, otherwise I'd be stoned out of my mind all night watching reruns of "The Nanny" while jerking off. Yeah, um, thank god for that.... | ||
| John Forth (John) Username: John Registered: 05-2008 Posted From: 82.24.1.217 |
>Someone asked what a 'wavering reader' is. I'd say it is someone not yet persuaded to commit a good part of their time to reading fiction. I think a real book might persuade him more than an electronic book -- and the latter could indeed be a deterrent to read fiction by being more associated with (or more infected by) 'easier-effort' aspects of electronic entertainment.< That someone would have been me! To be honest, Des, I'm not sure that kind of person exists except to facilitate your point. And even if they did, wouldn't the convenience of an e-book be more likely to encourage them to read fiction as a result of (as you say) 'the easier effort aspects'? I get the funny feeling we've reached the point in this conversation where, short of hopping in a time machine and finding out exactly what impact e-readers have had on the book-reading public, we're not going to get anywhere. See you all in sixty years time! *Whooooooooosh* | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.145.128.106 |
I'd say that if you have someone who isn't all that interested in reading, telling him he needs to fork out a three figure sum to buy a device to read even the celebrity turds, you've a lot less chance of persuading him to read than if you can show him a cheap pocket sized paperback... | ||
| John Forth (John) Username: John Registered: 05-2008 Posted From: 82.24.1.217 |
If you have someone who isn't all that interested in reading then I doubt waving a paperback under their nose will make much of a difference. To be honest, I doubt waving a Kindle under their nose will do much either. But if they've made it to this stage in their life without engaging with books, then maybe a different method of delivery will work. Stuffing it down their throat, for example. | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 220.138.165.182 |
I can't imagine anybody who doesn't already enjoy reading being likely to buy a Kindle. What would be the point? Or of buying physical books, for that matter? Weber, have you ever actually read on a Kindle? I think you're straining at this point to find any reason to knock this new technology that now exists for reading. Complaining about batteries, USB, future compatibility issues, and god knows what else... what next? Zed has already thoroughly refuted the battery thing (they last a long time) and I can't see this ebook technology going anywhere but forward - evolving and improving the reading experience for those who love to read. The Kindle has a lot of advantages for people who read a lot - it's very comfortable to use, and e-ink looks great, in my opinion. I'm not sure why people feel threatened by this, but clearly it has this effect on some. Others can continue to try to make this into some sort of 'battle' between old and new media if they choose. Personally, I've had enough - I'm off to do some reading. Whether from one of the books on my shelves or my Kindle, I've not yet decided. The important thing to me is the reading. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.137.168.78 |
Yes, as I say, I'm convinced. I'm crossing the house. I'm a convert. I trust people on RCMB. Seriously. | ||
| Simon Strantzas (Nomis) Username: Nomis Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 68.179.31.1 |
I'll simply add what I've said elsewhere: if you only want to read physical books, sitting here complaining about ebooks won't do anything to help your cause. Instead, go out and BUY physical books, then convince everyone you know, especially those who don't read, to go out and buy physical books, too. Get those sales up by getting people hooked on reading and your favoured medium shall never disappear. There is enough room in this world for BOTH media to be successful at the very same time. Now, if you excuse me, I'll excuse myself, as there's no point in arguing when views are so entrenched. But, I will say this: I'm constantly impressed Zed was open-minded enough about this topic to actually change his mind. It wasn't so long ago he was pulling out the old "you can't read it in the bath" chestnut. I'm proud of you, son. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.137.168.78 |
I have opened my mind sufficiently to change my mind on this thread already, Simon. You must have missed it as it must have crossed with my confirmation just before your post. Meanwhile, I shall continue to buy physical books for real-time reviewing which many authors have been grateful over the years, including you. | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
Wow, this thread has sky-rocketed! I've been reading with interest but haven't been able to post today until now. As mentioned in my early posts, I come down on the side of "real" books here. I've tried an e-reader; I didn't like it. I love real paper books. I don't know why. Perhaps I'm old-fashioned? I've never been one of the first to try new technologies. But, surely, it's my *perogative* to prefer real books? The same as it's Weber's perogative, or Stevie's, or anyone else who prefers real books? (Des - you've gone over to the other side? Argh!!) I can't understand why those of you who've discovered the joys of ebooks can't understand why there are still some of us who prefer the real thing? Maybe we are out-of-date non-innovators, but that's who we are. Someone asked above why some people fear ebooks. Well, I fear them as I suspect that they will ultimately lead to the death of real books. We've already seen the closure of bookshops (both independent and chains), and an increase in the "plugging" of ebooks as opposed to real ones. The thought of a world without real books bothers me - but, fortunately, I don't think I'll be around to see it. No, I'll stick to my real books thanks - no matter how much pressure there is to switch to ebooks. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.137.168.78 |
Caroline, I meant I was convinced by the worth of ebooks - becuase so many people I trust here are voicing arguments that sound convincing that I should not be worried about them endangering real books. But I remain with you, Joel, Weber, Stevie and maybe others on this thread, on not reading ebooks myself. I shall continue to buy physical books for real-time reviewing, not ebooks. | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
Ah, right! Yes, I can see they have value - and I can understand how some people like them either as well as, or instead of, real books. But they're definitely not for me. I do think they are endangering real books though. The publishers and marketeers are pushing them so much, people are buying them more and more, and real books less and less, bookshops are closing - real books are dying, I fear. But not in my household! | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.137.168.78 |
One question. If an author's book comes out in an ebook form only, are there still public signings for them, i.e a box like a CD cover to sign? | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.145.128.106 |
No I've not read anything on an e-reader and have no intention of ever doing so. That's my perogative. | ||
| Stephen Theaker (Stephen_theaker) Username: Stephen_theaker Registered: 12-2009 Posted From: 94.169.3.199 |
"I can't understand why those of you who've discovered the joys of ebooks can't understand why there are still some of us who prefer the real thing?" But this isn't a thread called "I prefer print books" - it's called "A flag for the battle against ebooks". In that context, people are justified in saying that there's no need for any battle. Course, any battle would be more in the way of a re-enactment now... | ||
| Nathaniel Tapley (Natt) Username: Natt Registered: 11-2009 Posted From: 92.21.127.115 |
For me, the tactile experience of reading a book had always been bound up with the pleasures of reading. The brittle yellow mustiness of the half-century old Agatha Christies I devoured whenever I was ill and off school. The pleasing heft and bend of a new library book. The way the ink on a comic smeared when you flattened it along the spine with your thumb. I love bookshops: finding things I'd never expected, finding postcards inside books, the heady wordlust of seeing all those books together in one place. I love lending people books, giving people books, passing on books when I am done with them, seeing my daughter read my copy of Where The Wild Things Are. For me, books have always been important as objects. But you will have to prise my Kindle from my cold, dead hands. I have no more room for books in my house. There are a couple of thousand accessible, and boxes in storage in at least three different places. Each one has memories, notes in the back, the memory of when I bought it. But I have a young family, children who grow and take up more space each day. I am no longer allowed to suspend shelves full of heavy books above their beds. Because of my Kindle, I can still buy books. And lots are cheap, and some are free. The first book I bought for my Kindle was JLP's 'Wicked Pleasures'. Much as I love and admire Lord Probert, I'm self-employed and my income is irregular. I would never have been able to justify buying the hardback edition. Instead I got the ebook in an Atomic Fez sale. It was about $5. At that price, I can't *not* but books I want. Odd as it may sound, the £5 barrier is still important in whether I think of a book as a 'pocket money' expense, or as something which could actually be better spent on something else. Like shoes for my children. £3 I don't have to feel guilty about. £8 I do. Ebooks let me buy more books. And they reduce publisher's costs. I've got review copies, scripts I'm editing, scripts I'm writing, and all sorts on my Kindle. I have to read a lot of scripts. The Kindle isn't perfect because it doesn't cloud-store PDFs or the notes made on them, but it allows me to use much less paper. I have to read a lot of scripts that I'm only going to use for a day, for an audition or rehearsed reading, or class I'm leading. Ebook readers are saving the environment on my behalf. And making sure my life isn't as full of pieces of paper as it always has been. And giving publishers the chance to distribute review copies without shelling out for, you know, review copies. It hugely cuts the cost of publicising a book for a publisher. Why else would Angry Robot be so keen to distribute ebooks for review purposes? Caroline - I'm not sure there's any need to choose sides. Not one person who has advocated the benefits of ebooks has suggested that the world would be better with paper books. Whereas those who are advocating paper books have all either stated or implied that the world would be better off without ebooks. Certainly, no one on the pro-ebook side is trying to make you choose a side, or feels threatened by your preference. They think it's brilliant you love books. They don't feel the need to start threads referring to 'the battle against paper!" I've just pulled down a book at random off my shelf. It's Dostoyevsky's 'The Devils'. I bought it on the 28th January 2000. It's one of the old Penguin Classic editions (back when the line was edited by E.V.Rieu. I just took a big sniff. It's brilliant. The paper's soft, and as a sense memory it's reminded me of an old girlfriend. I almost feel like I'm being unfaithful to my wife with every illicit inhalation. Just one more... There's a ticket in, marking the page where I stopped reading. Page 444. The ticket is for The Comedy Store on Friday the 18th February 2000. I remember that night. I remember the group I went with. It's a shame I don't see a lot of them now. I remember getting the bus down to London for that trip (or perhaps another, it's a memory of arriving at Victoria Coach Station reading this book). There is only one thing I don't remember. Anything that happens in 'The Devils.' I did make notes. Apparently I thought there were things worth remembering on pages: viii, 32, 133, 232, 256, 270, 276, 372, and 399. I'm not going to see what they were because the more I hold it in my hand, the more I want to read this again (and finish it) in the near future. The tactile and nostalgic sides of books are wonderful and irreplaceable. They are, however, only secondary pleasures. They are entirely separate pleasures to the actual reading of a book, the taking in of an author's thoughts. The moment where an author's mind meets mine happens through reading, not through physical contact with a book. I will buy and read books, proper books, for as long as I live. I'm also going to buy and read ebooks, too. I just wouldn't want to line my shelves with them. | ||
| Nathaniel Tapley (Natt) Username: Natt Registered: 11-2009 Posted From: 92.21.127.115 |
PS - Des, that is a lovely image. It will look delightful as a screensaver on my Kindle. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.31.209.20 |
I was going to contribute to this thread, but I'm very uncomfortable with e-threads and so decided to go out and have a real debate with someone in the street. It was far more satisfying. Something about the way my words made his face twitch. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.31.209.20 |
Personally, I can't see what the debate is about. I mean, why bother reading at all when we have telly? | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.137.168.78 |
PS - Des, that is a lovely image. It will look delightful as a screensaver on my Kindle. =================== Thanks Nathaniel. Tony will be pleased. I said earlier in this thread: "Not a flag for a book crusade at the head of this thread, after all, but a potential memorial for what they have been in the past?" I think we can all agree that books will change as a result of ebooks. Hopefully for the better. I'm glad this thread has given or is giving a sort of catharsis, if you indeed agree that is what it has done, is doing. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.137.168.78 |
PS: many debates in debating societies or other such attempts at discursive catharsis often start with something seemingly controversial or extreme to gain people's interest and their spark of angry enthusiasm and willingness to brainstorm... | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.253.77 |
Caroline, if you read through this entire thread the whole gist of it is that there's no need to take sides in this. We who advocate ebooks on the whole prefer paper books, but are trying to explain that both formats can continue without one threatening the existence of the other. But, I will say this: I'm constantly impressed Zed was open-minded enough about this topic to actually change his mind. It wasn't so long ago he was pulling out the old "you can't read it in the bath" chestnut. I'm proud of you, son. Ha! Simon, contrary to popular belief, I'm always happy to be proved wrong. Unlike Weber (who's now blown his own argument out of the water), I was willing to try the thing I was so against, and in doing so I realised that my arguments were ill-informed and ill-founded. As Nat wonderfully says above, I love and prefer physical books, but you'll have to prise my Kindle from my cold, dead hands. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.253.77 |
PS: many debates in debating societies or other such attempts at discursive catharsis often start with something seemingly controversial or extreme to gain people's interest and their spark of angry enthusiasm and willingness to brainstorm... True, Des...but didn't you throw a strop last time I did that? | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.137.168.78 |
yes, of course. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.137.168.78 |
BTW, this question: "One question. If an author's book comes out in an ebook form only, are there still public signings for them, i.e a box like a CD cover to sign?" It would be a shame if signing sessions are not continued where ebooks are the only form of any books. Any suggestions? | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.253.77 |
It seems to be that signing sessions are on the wane anyway, I do more panel-type events (like the one I'm doing with Ramsey tonight) or meet and greets than formal bookshop signings (I've done one of the latter, sveral of the others). I never liked signings anyway, as a punter. Panels, readings, discussions, are much more fun. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.137.168.78 |
Thanks, Zed. Yes, that's confirming something I think I had picked up. But if, say, a small press publisher wants an ebook signed - as they do with books at the moment - how do they go about it? Perhaps it's not important (or it's impossible!) | ||
| Stephen Theaker (Stephen_theaker) Username: Stephen_theaker Registered: 12-2009 Posted From: 94.169.3.199 |
If a publisher is in the business of producing limited signed editions of print books, then one would imagine that's what they'll keep doing. They're selling collectables, as much as fiction. If a publisher focused exclusively on ebooks but still wanted to rake in the extra money that comes from selling signatures I guess they could supply the signature sheets in a different format to premium customers - in a frame, or something like that - instead of pasting them into the books. Most mass book signings take place in bookshops, and you have to buy a copy of the book to get a signature; if there are no print books to sign, there will be no bookshops, and so there won't be as many signings. I don't think that will happen, though. As far as fans who care about collecting signatures go, I've heard it's getting quite common for them to have the backs of their Kindles signed by authors. I'd quite like that. There's always something to get signed - posters, leaflets, programmes, body parts... | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.137.168.78 |
Kindling 'Kindles' with signatures... appeals to me, too. Maybe like launching a ship with a splash of ink - several times! | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.145.128.106 |
"Unlike Weber (who's now blown his own argument out of the water)," In what way? By saying I have no intention of ever using a device I see no point in it's existance? | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.145.128.106 |
I've seen them up close. I've had peoople show me how they work. I'm just not impressed. I still see no point. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.253.77 |
Weber, I used to slag Kindles off as much as you. Then I tried one. You're dead touchy you, like. Stephen - I've been saying for ages now that bookshops should be investing in "download points", where people can plug in their USB stick or devices and buy an ebook (or download a sample). It'll get people into the shop, and get them browsing. Most Kindle users also buy paper books. Most book lovers never enter a bookshop without buying something. | ||
| Stevie Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 82.4.19.77 |
I was kindly allowed the use of a Kindle by an effusive workmate and genuinely wanted to be impressed... but wasn't. I can see the use and cleverness of the technology but, personally, found the experience of reading literature on the device distracting and uncomfortable. I'd be happy to read a newspaper or a magazine in that format but not a book. It may sound ridiculous but I miss the psychic pleasure of admiring the cover, turning the pages and inserting my bookmark too much. If that makes me a close minded curmudgeon then so be it... I'm happy with who I am. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.184.109.44 |
They just look to me like expensive toys. The technology is not futureproof - unlike print on paper. I have a copy of Mark Twain's book the Innocents abroad downstairs which, going by the inscription, was given to someone called lillian on March 24th 1914. I also have a copy of Huck Finn which was apparently given to a William Tydeman by his Dad in 1950 - both these books still work. They can still be read now. This type of gizmo exists solely to get more money out of people by forcing you to replace them at regular intervals by making the existing models obsolete and unusable. If most books go eformat only (as you have predicted in this thread Zed) in so many years than that will be a huge fucking tragedy. Reading will become a pastime for the rich only as you'll need to be able to fork out 3 figure sums just to get the shitty looking piece of plastic you need to read them on. Anyone on average income and below who struggles to last therough to the end of the month will have to forego the pleasures of reading new material and stick to old second hand books if there are any real book shops left. Meanwhile the rich gizmo users will be continually changing their e reading devices as the battery packs die entirely (as all rechargable batteries do) or whenever the replacement of the usb port becomes itself obsolete. | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 178.116.57.88 |
This type of gizmo exists solely to get more money out of people by forcing you to replace them at regular intervals by making the existing models obsolete and unusable. Exactly. If I get one for Xmas I won't chuck it in the bin, but I'm not saving up to buy one either. As a sidenote, I still use an old Nokia cell phone from 2005, a cheap one at that. If it gets damaged or lost I have an even older one I have practically never used, from 2000 or 2001 I think. The protective bit of plastic is still on the screen! | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.184.109.44 |
Then there's the ease at which electonic files can be stolen... The music industry has never had so much trouble with pirating as it does now. Is that really the type of future wanted for literature? | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.137.168.78 |
I wish I could be as positive as Weber. That's where my heart is taking me. But I see all Zed's points, too. ======================= “From the cosmic point of view, to have opinions or preferences at all is to be ill; for by harbouring them one dams up the flow of the ineluctable force which, like a river, bears us down to the ocean of everything’s unknowing. Reality is a running noose, one is brought up short with a jerk by death. It would have been wiser to co-operate wih the inevitable and learn to profit by this unhappy state of things – by realising and accommodating death! But we don’t, we allow the ego to foul its own nest. Therefore we have insecurity, stress, the midnight-fruit of insomnia, with a whole culture crying itself to sleep. How to repair this state of affairs except through art, through gifts which render to us language manumitted by emotion, poetry twisted into the service of direct insight?” from ‘The Avignon Quincunx’ by Lawrence Durrell (‘Constance’ 1982) | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.31.209.20 |
>>>>Reading will become a pastime for the rich only as you'll need to be able to fork out 3 figure sums just to get the shitty looking piece of plastic you need to read them on. You mean those damned elitist televisions? | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.137.168.78 |
Well, I don't know whether Weber will make the same point, Gary, but televisions were sui generis inventions while Kindles could be seen as replacements for something that does e certain job already (if differently). Saddling oneself with the technical 'upkeep' of anything needs careful thought. | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 61.216.45.151 |
Des - the insinuation was, I believe, that only the rich could afford such 'gizmos'. If you can't afford a Kindle you certainly can't afford a television (or phone, radio, fridge, microwave, camera... etc. etc.). | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.137.168.78 |
Yes, Huw, but affording anything is a question of opportunity cost. And to buy a TV was once the only way to watch TV. But a Kindle is not the only way to read books. It's perhaps beside the point whether you can afford either or both. Just thinking aloud. Forgive me if there are any loopholes in what I've said. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.31.209.20 |
I was being slightly facetious. I think Weber has a point in that some folk, if Kindles were the only way of reading, would be less likely to chance this reading malarkey at £xxx [three digits: a Kindle] as opposed to £x [one digit: a book]. Many parents would almost certainly be less likely to "try and get their kids interested in reading". A fair point. But it presupposes a future in which the paper book is obsolete, which I personally feel is Twainian in its proclamation of a premature death. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.137.168.78 |
Caroline, for one, judging by what she says above, doesn't think it Twainian. And Joel has been predicting this situation for years. But I don't want to speak for Joel beyond what he has already said on this thread. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.137.168.78 |
Stephen, perhaps from a different direction of viewpoint from Caroline's, also seems not to think it Twainian: "Course, any battle would be more in the way of a re-enactment now..." | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.31.209.20 |
Yeah? Well, my Auntie Mabel sez the opposite. She should know. She once met not only Harper but Collins, too. | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 61.216.45.151 |
I use my Kindle as an extension, something that allows me to read anywhere, any time I want to, and save a lot of space in terms of storage. I don't think that books will ever die out. A world in which people's only access to literature is through a screen would be a sad place to be. | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 178.116.57.88 |
True enough, in itself a kindle is not all that expensive, but if I'm supposed to buy a new piece of kit every six months or even every three years just to be able to read . . . I see it before me: everybody on the train reading rubbish on their latest little gameboys, while I am reading Lovecraft on an older piece of kit. The pittying glances - "Poor fellow, he's using yesteryear's model, his life must not work." Not what you read, but the way you read it will be important. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.137.168.78 |
Gary, I recall a time when I could never afford to buy even one book but had to get my Enid Blytons from the library. Auntie Mabel was at the desk putting the tickets in and out of the small glued pockets. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.184.109.44 |
Before Televisions, if you wanted to see moving pictures you had to go to the cinema and pay every time. With the advent of television, suddenly the moving pictures were beamed into your own home and you could watch as much as you liked once it was there. They were a clear and distinct improvement in technology. At best people describe the reading experience on a kindle as just like reading a book. What then is the point of a kindle at a £--- 3 figure price tag when the existing technology works fine, and has none of the long term problems that a kindle has? | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
OK, so maybe the question should be: Are ebooks going to lead to the complete demise of real books? I fear they will, and it's that fear which makes me dislike ebooks so much. As many here have said (even the Kindle users), a world without real books would be a very sad world indeed. Oh, and you've also hit on another reason why I prefer real books - you can get them signed! (I'm a regular signed book junkie) | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.31.209.20 |
What did Stephen Fry say recently? "Ebooks no more threaten real books than escalators threaten stairs." | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.184.109.44 |
Stephen Fry also said on QI that there is no Welsh word for Blue. That's how reliable he is... | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
Ah but do you believe everything Stephen Fry says? | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.137.168.78 |
A bit of back-pedalling maybe needed one day by Mr Fry there. | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
Ha! Weber and me posting simultaneously again. We must be twins!  | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
OK, make that triplets - me, Weber and Des.  | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.31.209.20 |
I wasn't quoting Stephen Fry as an appeal to authority, which is always a sign of insecurity. I just thought his quotation summed up well my feelings about this whole silly issue. Btw, the Eurozone may collapse at any moment, pitching us all into a recession worse than the Great Depression. Catch you in the gutters. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.31.209.20 |
Hey, Weber, quoting unreliable sources is just so ignoble: http://www.knibbworld.com/campbelldiscuss/messages/1/5024.html?1312911600 | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.137.168.78 |
Btw, the Eurozone may collapse at any moment, ============ What now, this Saturday afternoon? | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.31.209.20 |
As good as. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.137.168.78 |
I don't think that escalators / stairs analogy is a good one, even if you run with it. There are trillions more unmoving stairs in the world than escalators. And where do lifts come in? | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.31.209.20 |
Like everything is this cursed world, this is a complex issue. The physical book perhaps reflects the fact that we humans are tool-using beings and feel uncomfortable with the notion that our physical artefacts are being usurped. The autographed book is many things: the endorsed work of a psychologically essential guru; a survival manual; tangible evidence of discursive strategies that can move us to tears, move us to rebellion, etc. I posit that we like concrete versions of things that mean anything to us. The ebook, convenient and practical though it may be, flirts with the realm of the ephemeral, as if our soul-stirring favourite texts are little more than flowers in the dirt, chalk on water. I guess, therefore, that all the passionate debate about this issue is borne of the fact that books reach us deeply, and that their half-death - a virtual presence rather than a dusty being (no, not dusty bin: this ain't Leslie Crowther) - is a source of considerable concern. But relax, all. Words don't need a physical form to perform the same tricks on our inner beings. And even though the combination of race memories (organic, a-social) and commodity fetishism (cultural, Capitalist) are powerful forms of resistance to such a supercession of new technology, these postures are surely over-defensive. ImMyHumbleOpinion. On the other hand, you can put some good skins on a Kindle, can't ya? So that makes em better, innit. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.137.168.78 |
ABSOLUTELY Brilliant! Mr Fry. So much cleverer than the other Mr Fry. Seriously. The only reservation I have is "Words don't need a physical form to perform the same tricks on our inner beings." I hope I have shown this is wrong or, at least, debateable in some of my real-time reviews. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.31.209.20 |
The other Mr Fry is a coke-driven madman. Unlike me, who's a teetotal madman. | ||
| Stephen Theaker (Stephen_theaker) Username: Stephen_theaker Registered: 12-2009 Posted From: 94.169.3.199 |
"Stephen, perhaps from a different direction of viewpoint from Caroline's, also seems not to think it Twainian: 'Course, any battle would be more in the way of a re-enactment now...'" No - you don't need to annihilate the other side to win a battle. Kindle books are outselling paper books in the biggest bookshop in the US - any battle against them is over. But that doesn't mean print books are going to disappear completely. They'll just become less and less important for commercial fiction. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.31.209.20 |
>>> any battle against them is over. "The end of history." -- Francis Fukuyama His wife is constantly appalled by his tendency towards prematurity. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.31.209.20 |
www.allusion-never-more-timely.com | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 178.116.57.88 |
Btw, the Eurozone may collapse at any moment Ah, the news has percolated through to the British Isles.  | ||
| Stephen Theaker (Stephen_theaker) Username: Stephen_theaker Registered: 12-2009 Posted From: 94.169.3.199 |
Des asked above how books might be changed if ebooks become the lead format for fiction, and I do have some thoughts on that. The big change, I think, is that we'll see commercial novels get shorter, for a few reasons: 1. People shopping for Kindle books don't seem to compare books by length the way bookshop buyers do, so publishers are going to stop demanding long books. 2. Economies of scale in printing stop being an issue, which'll have the same effect on the kind of novels publishers want. 3. Low pricing of ebooks - if a 200,000 word novel sells at the same price as a 30,000 word novella (e.g. I paid more or less the same price for UR and The Colorado Kid that I paid for Under the Dome), it makes sense for the author to produce shorter, more frequent books. 4. Ebooks don't disappear from the shelves as quickly; you don't need to snap them up just in case it goes out of print. So it's in the interest of writers to write books that readers finish, rather than just collect, so that when your next book comes out they're ready to read it. Because if they haven't read the previous book, they won't feel any urgency about buying the next one. That doesn't mean every book will be shorter, any more than every book is now long - the small press will carry on doing its own thing, as will authors who can set their own terms - but I think these factors will exert a powerful downward pressure on the length of commercial novels over the years to come. But I could be wrong! | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.31.209.20 |
Hubert, we could smell Belgium gasses of fear seeping across the Channel . . . | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 178.116.57.88 |
I think it might have been Prozac gas, for the people looks as dumb(founded) as ever. If Europe or, for that matter, the world goes, Belgium will probably be the last to know. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.137.168.78 |
Thought-provoking and astute, imo. Thanks, Stephen. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.253.77 |
If most books go eformat only (as you have predicted in this thread Zed) No, I didn't predict that. I said that ebooks would probably replace most mass market paperbacks. Most, not all. I see a return to small indie bookshops catering for specific tastes rather than massive chain stores stocking celebrity fiction. Maybe even major publishes utilising existing POD methods. To me, that's a good thing. Re: the price of a Kindle. 100 quid. Ex Occidente, PS, and a lot of other small presses charge 30 quid upwards for one book. You can claw the initial outlay back in 2 months. The Kindle is basically a tool caterering for readers rather than collectors - the bok trade, over the last several years, has been moving towards catering for collectors: expensive hardback editions bound in weird materials, multi-signed copies, etc, etc. I'm a reader. I just want to read the stories. The Kindle let's me do that at a reasonable price (I rarely buy PS titles, for example, other than Ramsey's books because I think they're too expensive. Now that PS are releasing their titles as ebooks for a few quid each, I've downloaded four or five of them. Ditto Tartarus). GF - we're all aware of the economic crisis, but that doesn't mean we aren't allowed to distract ourselves by debating other, less important, issues. Just saying, like. | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 212.219.233.223 |
I agree with all that, Gary. You just provided the definitive answer, as far as I'm concerned. | ||
| Rhysaurus (Rhysaurus) Username: Rhysaurus Registered: 01-2010 Posted From: 212.219.233.223 |
I'm hugely enjoying being published by the Italian digital publisher, 40K. They only buy e-book rights, so there's nothing stopping me getting those same pieces published in paper books in the future. And I've had the privilege of being published alongside such writers as Bruce Sterling. E-books is passive income and the more I have out there the better... Not only do I want my stuff to get read (it may make me sound conceited but I genuinely believe I'm contributing something to fiction that no one else is doing) but I desperately need the income, even though it's only a trickle. Lots of trickles together make a stream, and a stream can make a river (not always; it might evaporate into a dry riverbed before it gets anywhere)... But anyway: e-books, me a convert. And they're saving trees too! | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 61.216.203.227 |
Well said, Gary. And Rhys - I don't think that makes you sound conceited at all. But, more importantly, how was the Szechuan, Zed? | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.137.168.78 |
And they're saving trees too! ========== I think that's the first time on this thread that anyone has made that point. If it's true, it sort of clinches the argument for more ebooks and (possibly) for nothing but ebooks. Is it as simple as that? | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.253.77 |
The Szechuan was amazing, Huw! The biggest food portions I've ever been served, and it was all delicious. Des - I proofed my last novel on my Kindle because my printer died on me. I saved lots on paper and ink. I just read the work on the devide, making notes as I go, and then make the edits on the laptop - much the same as I'd do with paper hard copies. | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 220.138.164.36 |
Glad to hear it! I had Szechuan last night, coincidentally... unless I subconsciously steered myself in that direction after reading that you were all going for one. | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 178.116.57.88 |
And they're saving trees too! Don't think that manufacturing 'gizmos' doesn't have an ecological price. To name but one thing, in the Congo the Eastern Mountain Gorilla population has practically been decimated because of our need for coltan, which is primarily used in cell phones, but also in computers, dvd players, kindles, you name it. Wars are being waged in Africa because of our industry's need for the mineral. Not to mention pc pollution and the 'plastic pollution' of our oceans, which are practically dying as a result of our dumping of plastic waste. Old computers don't just fade away, you know. | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
Nicely put, Hubert! Because we can't really see it ourselves in our everyday lives, many people don't realise the hidden ecological costs of these technologies. BTW I reckon my old Motorolla mobile is probably even older than your mobile! | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 178.116.57.88 |
I would really like to reactivate my antient Nokia 5110, just to see everybody's reaction. People would probably think it the latest fad - it looks like a brick, has a nicely old-fashioned space invaders ringtone and there's a stumpy little antenna as well. It was first announced in 1998, I see. | ||
| Mbfg (Mbfg) Username: Mbfg Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 92.4.188.181 |
I don't care if people read paper or e-books, just as long as they READ BOOKS! Cheers Terry | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
Mine's got a stumpy antenna too, Hubert. And it's bright blue! Looks quite futuristic - in a retro kind of way. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.145.131.198 |
http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2011/aug/22/are-books-dead-ewan-morrison | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.165.37.175 |
Thanks for that link, Weber. Serious food for thought. Thinking.... | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
OK, that's it. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.66.23.11 |
" 'plastic pollution' of our oceans, which are practically dying as a result of our dumping of plastic waste" and if I remember my science lessons properly - plankton on top of the oceans acts just the same as trees in operating as "lungs" or the planet, absorbing CO2 from the atmosphere and producing oxygen. IIRC it produces more O2 than all the rainforests combined. I might be wrong though and I don't have time to look it up | ||
| Stevie Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
I already think of my library as a kind of museum exhibiting paper artefacts that I take great pride in protecting for future generations. The paper book will cease to be mass produced in our lifetimes and become the preserve of the rich - as will the motorcar. The serious Arts - writing, composing, songwriting, performing, painting, filmmaking, theatre, etc - will become impenetrably fragmented into obscure fringe interests, of questionable quality control, while entertainment produced for the mass populace turns increasingly to lowest common denominator product. We can see this developing already with the bewilderingly fast advances in technology and ballooning populations that make such "progress" inevitable. Time to accept that we are all anachronisms, the future is out of anyone's control and the best we can hope for is to enjoy and protect what artistic heritage already exists for the short span of years we have left... | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
I've long since believed all that's said in that article is coming, it's inevitable. It started with the whole digital music thing, which is like the first victim in a coming plague, and watching it die is a presage of what's coming for everyone else. Someone recently showed me Katy Perry's somewhat cute and creative video for "Last Friday Night" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlyXNRrsk4A) (85 million+ hits?!?), and I remember thinking... I just saw this for free... I could get this song anywhere, in many different ways, for free... so where's the money changing hands? It's not so much about the product here: it's a promo for the artist, a career boost into film/TV/etc... and so the product becomes to a degree less significant: the artist must distinguish itself now, must stand out more than ever as a brand, for monetary gains to be seen. So it's the artist over product in our futures, it seems. There will still be monolithic institutions that will lottery-like take in a Katy Perry. But that's, again, a lottery-win. For everyone else, it will be building a fan base (ala Rebecca Black, who appears in this video) from scratch, sans help from giant corporations and companies, and other 3rd party hand-holding modes of distribution... where product + artist is more than ever, more vital than the weight of mere product alone. The clever, industrious, but less-creative will survive, whereas the timid, lazy, more-creative may not..... | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 61.216.202.116 |
The situation in the music world is very different compared to how it was 15-20 years ago. There was still a lot of money to be made in album sales back then. Now a band has to tour and sell stuff directly online in order to survive. A lot has changed, for better or worse. | ||
| Stephen Theaker (Stephen_theaker) Username: Stephen_theaker Registered: 12-2009 Posted From: 94.169.3.199 |
Has music really changed that much in that regard - this article is about twenty years old: http://www.negativland.com/albini.html What's perhaps changing is that there's less money in it for the labels now, just as Ewan Morrison says above that there's less money in it for publishers. People are still spending money, and I think fans of a writer or an artist are always going to be keen to spend their disposable income on the people they like. The big difference, I hope, going forward, is that more of that money will end up with the creators. | ||
| Mick Curtis (Mick) Username: Mick Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.176.250.238 |
A lot of music artists have realised that the experience of live music can't be downloaded, hence the amount of money made through touring nowadays. It used to be that a band would tour to promote an album and make money from that - nowadays it's the other way around, which is why, 25 or 30 years ago it was mostly cheaper to buy a gig ticket than an album whereas nowadays many tickets are £65 or more. | ||
| Mick Curtis (Mick) Username: Mick Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.176.250.238 |
Home taping is killing music! | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 178.116.57.160 |
our oceans, which are practically dying as a result of our dumping of plastic waste The image is a bit fuzzy, but this docu sums it up pretty well: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rk771ixhNBM&feature=related | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 178.116.57.160 |
As for electronic waste - a less than optimistic view: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5A5zVNpkuzk&feature=related | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 178.116.57.160 |
- and a very optimistic view: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVbZ9SqAYfU&feature=related | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 2.24.30.60 |
Weber, thanks for the link to the Morrison article. My initial reaction to it was one of utter desperation. A day later I've calmed down slightly, as it only codifies what we already knew and are seeing on a daily basis. It's not easy to see what you've devoted your life to being destroyed by market forces – but that's just as true for most people. As capitalism sickens it destroys more and more of what is human. | ||
| Stevie Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
Agreed, Joel.  | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
Has anyone really worked out the ramifications of our current digital revolution vis-a-vis the economic collapse? In the course of the last 10 years, a course that measured the economies of the world tanking, we have as well, just naming what comes immediately to mind: - all forms of digital entertainment critically breaking down in the are of distribution: music first, now film, TV, radio broadcasts, video games, books, etc. - the resultant wreck of dependent industries: the monolithic corporations that create these products. - the destruction of industries and services that have become obsolete: bookstores, video rental stores, photograph developing kiosks and store-outlets, repair shops, land-line/long-distance phone companies, website developers, etc. We are in a crisis of "distribution" now, the world. It seems like a boon for the consumer, the ability to get almost anything in the digital realm for "free" - and if one's willing to bend one's ethical stance a bit, the pile gets bigger (i.e., online piracy, softwares sharing, illegal downloads, etc.). As distribution collapses, jobs must necessarily be lost. So why have I seen almost no attention paid to this massive revolution taking place, in pundit comments on economic woes?... | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 178.116.57.32 |
When paper goes entirely out of fashion you can always use a handy disk shredder to keep others from using certain kinds of information against you. It'll even shred your old paper shredder for you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yd_O7-rqcHc&feature=related Sad in a funny way - or funny in a profoundly sad way? | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 94.197.127.63 |
I have seen the light (or lack of it; Kindles don't come with lights, it turns out) and am now a Kindle fan. I bought one for my girlfriend for her birthday and have to restrain myself from nicking it. I agree with Zed on the ebook/treebook debate. It's not either or. Honestly. (Incidentally, Zed, was it Concrete Grove you edited on Kindle? I just read the opening on Michelle's Kindle and thought it worked superbly well, almost is if it had been 'designed' for an e-reader. Stephen Leather has self-published for Kindle, and he talks about writing in a different way for it. I'm sure the typewriter and word processor changed writing; maybe in its own way the Kindle will too.) | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 61.216.200.103 |
My Kindle has a light. I think it comes with the optional protective case, though. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 2.24.30.40 |
Yes, for the next year it's not either/or. But historically and economically it quite obviously will be. And the eclipse of the print format will not be gradual and it will not be a generation away. It will happen very fast and very soon, probably within the next two years. W.H. Smith's will pull the plug on the Waterstone's franchise and that will be fucking it in the UK. Within five years at most. We all know this, so why pretend otherwise? | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.40.254.176 |
I think you're right, Joel. So what new stuff will you be reading when that happens? Ebooks? Or will you give up reading? It's just an idea whose time has come. For good or ill. Like Mr McMahon, I prefer treebooks, and would like to see them continue to exist in mass market format. But if they don't, I shall read ebooks. I got this wrong when I used to despise the Kindle. The Kindle's not the problem. As we probably all know anyway, it's the publishing industry... Profit margins, innit. | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 27.252.103.253 |
Indeed. Some work might be acted out on street corners, and actual theatres, or handed down orally as it once was...and staged in the park....something not tied to computers. | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 27.252.103.253 |
For the greater part of it...could be print is on its way out. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.40.254.38 |
Huw, they charge extra for the Kindle case with a light. I think it's another fifty quid. But I got over it not having a light. Most books don't come with lights. Well, apart from the dazzling illumination of their contents. And even then they're few and far between. | ||
| Stephen Theaker (Stephen_theaker) Username: Stephen_theaker Registered: 12-2009 Posted From: 94.169.3.199 |
After I talked about ebooks at last year's BFS AGM (I managed to get a motion passed agreeing that the BFS could offer cheaper ebook-only memberships if it wanted - at some point I hope it does) I'm sure I heard someone describe talk of ebooks as science fiction..! I think the thing was, the Kindle had been around in the US for a few years before launching in the UK, so people in the UK heard about the Kindle, but didn't see anyone using them, so they thought they weren't catching on. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.40.254.78 |
Yorkshire's been digital since its formation, when mankind left the rift valley of Wharfedale. Eee lads, eee lasses. | ||
| Nathaniel Tapley (Natt) Username: Natt Registered: 11-2009 Posted From: 92.21.106.154 |
But the decline of the high street bookshop has nothing to do with ebooks, and everything to do with online retailers who will sell you an identical product for a significantly lower price. If all Waterstones does is offer a smaller range of books at a higher price than online retailers that is what is going to damage its business model, not the fact that some people read books on e-readers (which, of course, they also sell). (That may be my prejudice showing. My youth was spent trawling second-hand bookshops or independent bookshops rather than the big chains, which were usually well outside my price range. I remember my despair at having been given a W.H. Smith voucher for a birthday and being able to find literally nothing I wanted to spend it on in the Smiths near where we lived. For me, the closing of Thorntons on Broad Street in Oxford was worth more grief than the demise of the entire Dillons chain. Second hand bookshops are being driven out of business by the exorbitant rents in town centres: that is the factor that is killing book buying and reading in Britain, not Project Gutenberg.) Blaming ebooks for the a lack of town-centre bookshops is liking blaming the ferry for high train fares. There may be a link, but the real causative factors are closer to home. As a parent of young children, I'm well aware that there are some formats in which e-books have made no progress, nor will they in the foreseeable future. Picture books, cookery books, reference books. A Kindle or a Nook can't do any of these things well. Ipads are a slightly different story, and I'd argue that tablet computers are much further away from being ubiquitous than e-readers (and 4 times the price). Two last things: if you give a book-hungry child an e-book reader, they can have within minutes any out-of-copyright text on it. For free. Most of the world's literature without having to see if the library has it, if someone else has got it, finding that it's out of print. Can we really think that's a bad thing? Second, simply in environmental terms, in the energy required, the bleaches used, the trees cut down, book-reading is a costly exercise. If people could have got the pleasure from the author's thoughts and words without having to print, distribute, collect and pulp or landfill all those copies of 'The Da Vince Code' would the world really have been worse off? As Zed said at the beginning, ebooks don't threaten books at all. They threaten a certain type of mass-market paperback, in which the object is entirely secondary to the content. I do think that the huge advances we've seen in book design over the last couple of years (with foil-embossed covers or other-embossed hardback covers becoming quite common, and with paperbacks like 'The Passage' printing up the open end of the pages) is down to a desire to make the objects more desirable, and that's not a bad thing either. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.40.254.14 |
Uhm. Gollancz are in the process of reissuing their SF and Fantasy Masterworks series on a digital basis, and I believe they're looking to expand beyond their pre-existing titles in that range. It'd be great to see those old hard to find Cliff Simak books in print again. Same goes for the bad as well as the good, I suppose. And it'll be mainstream stuff coming back too, not just genre, though genre often leads the way. People like HV Morton, who seems to have fallen off the map, should enjoy a resurgence in ebook format. His London books are almost designed for ebook format. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
Mark, the books I have will last me the rest of my lifetime I should think. Some classic literature will probably remain in print, second-hand books will be available for a decade at least, and if new work is only available in digital format after this year then of course I'll read some of that. The future is not a vast expanse, rather a finite window on which the shutters are closing. I could happily spend a decade re-reading favourite works, another decade reading classics I've missed out on, and after that... is there an after that? For any of us? | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 178.116.57.32 |
second-hand books will be available for a decade at least Hopefully longer. Some of my best buys of late have been in 2nd-hand bookshops, Oxfam shops and the like. Even jumble sales do me - I always find something. | ||
| Simon Bestwick (Simon_b) Username: Simon_b Registered: 10-2008 Posted From: 86.24.209.217 |
I'd better check with Mr Oliver, then- by the sound of it by the time my next novel's due out, the bookshops and publishers will be all gone. Might as well stop rewriting it and spend the rest of my advance on hookers and Chinese takeaways. | ||
| Simon Bestwick (Simon_b) Username: Simon_b Registered: 10-2008 Posted From: 86.24.209.217 |
Er, for the sake of Jon's blood pressure- that was a joke... | ||
| Simon Bestwick (Simon_b) Username: Simon_b Registered: 10-2008 Posted From: 86.24.209.217 |
The bit about stopping the rewrite was, anyway... | ||
| Stevie Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
Joel, you've finally come round to my way of thinking regarding this linear illusion we call "life". There is an infinitude of after... and before. Read 'Flatland' and transpose the allegory to the dimensions of time rather than the dimensions of space. Time is not the fourth dimension. Time is a whole other set of dimensions entirely. And beyond time lies emotion. And beyond that... what we only have the tiniest grasp of imagining. Enjoy the apparent here and now, and what led upm to it, while you exist in this form. And don't worry about missing anything out. You can always return. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.107.130.149 |
But don't forget to prepare a packed lunch. I do quotidian to your numinous. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.165.37.175 |
I do nemonymous to your quid pro quo | ||
| Simon Bestwick (Simon_b) Username: Simon_b Registered: 10-2008 Posted From: 86.24.209.217 |
I do ron ron ron, I do ron ron. Sorry. I'll get me coat. | ||
| Stevie Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
Quotidian thought demands the existence of Zero and blindly denies the evidence of existence. Numinous experience proclaims the existence of Zero as a physical impossibility - the only one that existence allows. Sherlock Holmes would have had a snappier answer but would have been unable to deny my logical conclusion as sound. You all know the quote... | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 178.116.57.32 |
Opidian magnitudes obscure the transmogrification of lesser exhibits and numinous, if improbable incandescences. So be it. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.66.23.11 |
boobies | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.107.130.149 |
That was a well-timed joke, Weber, especially for someone who has his knockers. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 94.197.127.188 |
Sure, joel. Again, I wouldn't disagree if that was the way you wanted to go, re treebooks. But as long as, say, Ramsey is writing new work, I'll wanna read it. Even if it is only as an Ebook. Believe me, I'm surprised to be on this side of the argument! But it's the contents of the work, not the packaging, that matters ultimately. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.165.37.175 |
The "contents of the work" can include its packaging. E.G. an anthology with stories about real-book anthologies would feel wrong in an ebook, I feel. The same text, but a different meaning. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.156.186.45 |
ONe of the most thoughtful gifts you can give is a well chosen book... You can hardly wrap a kindle file can you? Kindles remove completely the social aspect of books. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.107.130.149 |
Oh, for heaven's sake . . . | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.40.254.156 |
So ebooks should be stopped because you can't wrap them up for Xmas? And anthologies should only be allowed to be presented in a format that relates to the tales within the collection? Presumably then all early-set historical novels should be produced on papyrus... Honestly, guys, if you don't like them you don't have to buy ebooks, just as you don't have to buy paperback originals if you prefer hardcovers. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.107.130.149 |
Aye. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.165.37.175 |
Yeh, I've already admitted defeat. But I still think there are many complexities with books, i.e. the tri-partite relationship between the creator of the words, the words themselves, and the reader - that we are now only beginning to understand or address when faced by this takeover by ebooks. Mark my words - witn biro or pencil, not with a flashing cursor. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.40.254.178 |
Yup, I agree, Des. But that shift has happened before, with the introduction of cheap editions of treebooks. The book's evolving all the time. Look at modern fiction, with its shorter sentences and paragraphs, etc. Very different from Dickens, for instance. Who was writing serials, of course (often in his own magazine, the no-good self-publisher, him), and binding them together as novels. Ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-changes.... | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.156.186.45 |
I've never stated that e-books should be stopped. Simply stated my reasons for not liking them or having any interest in them. The best anyone can say is that the reading experience on a kindle is the same as a traditional book. Therefore I don't see the point of them. If they're only as good as, rather than better than the alternative, why should I bother? | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.165.37.175 |
The book's evolving all the time. ============ Yes, the book has been evolving for centuries, bridge to bridge. Now we're leaping over a vast unknown chasm, and we are stil in mid leap - | ||
| Stephen Theaker (Stephen_theaker) Username: Stephen_theaker Registered: 12-2009 Posted From: 94.169.3.199 |
Don't bother, why should you? But I wouldn't say the reading experience on a Kindle is the same as a paper book. If it was, Kindles would be three times heavier and much more awkward to hold... | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.165.37.175 |
Weber would need to bother if books he wants to read are only available as ebook. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.107.130.149 |
What is it folk are worried about? The one thing I can see is that browsing books in a store is a communal experience. Well, maybe, but reading a book is a private business. If we talk with others about the book, that makes it communal. So as long as the material remains worthy enough to prompt such interrelations and enrichment of life, do ebooks really threaten anything? In short, do we think the prevalence of ebooks will lead to a diminution in the quality of 'published' material? (Forgive possibly naive questions. Whenever I see this issue debated, I tend to think it's like folk arguing over which is the best skiing resort: Switzerland or Austria.) | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.165.37.175 |
Are you planning to do ebooks, Gary, through Gray Friar Press? | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.107.130.149 |
I've considered it, but haven't had time to look at technicals. I must admit, having said what I do above, that I enjoy publishing nice books made of paper, and that the ebook move would be to do with making a little profit (yes, profit - hahaha). | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 2.24.27.220 |
That's the key. That's why this is happening. Nothing to do with cultural evolution or society moving foward. Media corporations can make more profit by shifting to a medium that has minimal production overheads. Therefore their shareholders demand they make that shift a priority and impose it on 'the market'. After all, it will slow down the profits from e-books if books are crowding the marketplace – so the media corporations will destroy book publishing and distribution. To boost their profits. Of course, their marketing people will call it an evolutionary step-change in human consciousness or some other drivel. But it's simply a shift in product form to increase the profit margin. Will authors benefit financially from the increased profits? How deeply do the media corporations care about cultural history, human literacy and the integrity of the arts? Fuck it. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.107.130.149 |
So, the question I asked, will this lead to a diminution in quality of published material? | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 2.24.27.220 |
"In short, do we think the prevalence of ebooks will lead to a diminution in the quality of 'published' material?" No Gary, it won't. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 2.24.27.220 |
Do you really need an explanation? The shift to digital formats is driven by profits, and a major part of that is getting rid of editors, designers, proof-readers etc. Every step in the production chain will be driven by the demand for faster 'content'. Everything will have instant built-in obsolescence. It's absolutely the end of our literary culture – not in a generation, but next year or the year after. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.107.130.149 |
So you think it will, then. So why does the ebook make this diminution more likely? I can accept that publishing in general is being dumbed down, but that's not about form of presentation; it's about wider issues in society. Why does the form in this case make the material suffer? I ask because I genuinely don't know. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.107.130.149 |
>>>The shift to digital formats is driven by profits, and a major part of that is getting rid of editors, designers, proof-readers etc. Is that a fact? I'm not defending anyone or anything. Just interested. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.107.130.149 |
And if it is a fact, why is it exclusive to ebooks? This is what I'm getting at. Why are these things particular to ebooks and not tree-books? | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.165.37.175 |
Not pre-empting anything Joel may say (and I agree with everything he's said already - it seems common sense, it simply rings true judging by experience with human nature and with the track record of e-culture)... If it turns out to be untrue, then I'll be pleased. Not pleased that I've lost the argument (I've lost it already on this specific score and Tony's black and white image illustrates that), but that my fears were confounded. Come on, Gary, admit you're acting as Devil's Advocate here. If you weren't, you'd already be pubslishing ebooks. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.107.130.149 |
All I'm saying is that having read some of Dan Brown's prose in PAPER form, it looks as if editors and proofreaders have already gone. By which I mean, such shit service is a separate issue to ebooks, surely. Yes, it's rubbish, but (at the moment), I don't see what why the move towards ebooks is responsible. (Though I can accept that ebooks may be part of a trend towards this - not a pusher of it, but simply caught in the swim.) | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.165.37.175 |
Well, I suppose one inarguable fact is that - if ebooks prevail in any big way over treebooks, as it looks as if they will - then book designers and other bookcraftsmen / printers will not be required so much, if at all. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.107.130.149 |
Put it this way, if ebooks were banned tomorrow, does anyone think the publishing industry wouldn't be fucked over by media companies anyway? | ||
| Simon Bestwick (Simon_b) Username: Simon_b Registered: 10-2008 Posted From: 86.24.209.217 |
If publishing went exclusively electronic, printers would be buggered, yes, but ebooks still need to be edited, designed and proofread. If publishers are stripping down that side of their business, it'll impact both print and electronic formats. I joke around this whole ebook thang because it's an issue that scares me. Or potentially does. After all, I do have a substantial dog in this fight. Well, more of a runty but ferocious Jack Russell terrier, but you know what I mean. The dog in question is whatever kind of literary career I might have. After many years of writing, I'm finally starting to get novels published professionally. I've spent a large part of my life doing day jobs I often don't particularly like. I would like to spend as much of my time as possible doing what I love, which is writing. And that means ultimately either marrying an extremely wealthy and altruisitic benefactress of the arts (unlikely) or making some kind of living from what I write. Doubtless some people will regard me as a 'sell-out' void of artistic integrity for not starving in a garret or something, but they can, frankly, go fuck themselves with a hedge-trimmer. Is Joel right? Well, I really hope not, obviously. But just because I don't want something to be the case doesn't necessarily mean that it isn't. I've known Joel a long time and often spoken to him in 'real life' and when he's been in 'prophet of doom' mode of other subject he's had an unnervingly high degree of accuracy. It'd be interesting to hear from people like Jon, who, after all, works in the publishing game and therefore knows whereof he speaks, and get his perspective on what's happening. Of course, one thing for all writers to remember is that a piece of writing's commercial potential- purely in terms of how much money you're likely to get out of it- is inversely proportional to your level of creative control. If you write poems, you can say exactly what you want, but you won't be making a fortune any time soon; ditto short stories. (I remember a live recording of the poet Joolz Denby, whose partner is Justin Sullivan of New Model Army, where she said: 'I was going to be rich and famous. Which is why I became a poet. (Pause) And why Justin didn't.') Write screenplays for TV or film and you can expect to have your work pulled apart and rewritten by everyone from the tea-boy downwards, but you'll make money from it. Novels probably represent an acceptable median- certainly with my current publisher I feel I can write exactly what I want to and still get paid- but at present I'd have to publish four a year to equal the (low to middling) income from my current day job (which would be pushing it even for me.) Not bitching there, just stating facts. A lot of writers, I think, have to juggle the writing they want to do with the writing that will pay the mortgage and buy food. Steve and Melanie Tem, for instance, write educational textbooks IIRC; another well-known British fantasy writer writes occasional scripts for 'Doctors'. The Beeb paid two grand per script, which would sort out the mortgage for two or three months and give him the freedom to write other stuff he wanted. It's a trade-off; at least you're earning your living by writing, even if you can't devote all your time to pure art. This is a subject that's been on my mind a lot lately. I'll be forty in another three years, and I don't want to be doing dead-end jobs for the rest of my life. I'm currently signed off work due to stress; I'd like it if I could pay my mortgage and put food on my table by doing something that I don't actively hate, that doesn't make me miserable. But I don't really know how to get there from here. As far as ebooks go, my biggest issue with them is their ephemerality. Leaving aside the issues of potentially having to buy a new Kindle every few years because books are being produced in some new and upgraded variant of PDF- which is the kind of shit big corporations keep pulling- the other reason behind me writing is that I want there to be something left of me after I've gone. Even when the oil runs out and there's no more elecricity to charge up people stupid fucking iPhones. Or Kindles. But if publishing goes exclusively electronic, then that's it- it's all lost forever. Apologies. Being maudlin now. There'll be small presses around, at least, to hopefully keep print publishing alive. Or if printing firms shut down it'll maybe be a return to publishing small magazines in back rooms. Either way, I'll carry on writing, no matter what. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.40.253.242 |
Sorry to hear about the stress issues, Simon. I hope this thread isn't adding to it too much! A recentish blog entry by Stephen Gallagher suggested his early books in the 80s didn't get much editing. A brief copy-edit was about his lot. And that's 30 years ago. Things have always been going downhill...! I suspect Joel's industry prognosis is correct. But it doesn't alter the fact I've enjoyed reading on a Kindle. | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 178.118.79.160 |
I can see myself buying one of the damned things eventually. However, I would never pay for an new e-book - I'd much sooner copy it from someone who has it already. I have never paid for software either. Naughty, I know. | ||
| Jonathan (Jonathan) Username: Jonathan Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.147.186.96 |
Hubert - are you saying you'd readily illegally download e-books? | ||
| Stephen Theaker (Stephen_theaker) Username: Stephen_theaker Registered: 12-2009 Posted From: 94.169.3.199 |
Erm, yes it is naughty. Maybe not the best forum to say that on, given how many of us depend on book sales to make a living... | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 178.118.79.160 |
Then give me the real thing, I'll happily buy it. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.165.37.175 |
And is that another potential problem with ebooks? The duplicity - like music downloads etc.? genuine question? Not pre-empting the answer. And I was wondering whether one-off pre-emptive contributions to this thread (like this one: http://www.knibbworld.com/campbell-cgi/discus/show.cgi?tpc=1&post=80551#POST8055 1 ) whether they have anything to add from their reaction to the rest of this discussion so that we can communicate with them through such metaphorical "la-la-la-la-la"... | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
But that's another thing the corporations must love - most people will probably just buy e-book files from Amazon and elsewhere - so there's no need to worry about the lending/2nd-hand market - most of the readers of these new books, will be new retail sales. And you know, you can put your own pdfs on these things... but I've seen them: they're formatted weird and extremely unpleasant to read - that too is planned. But, and I'm not savvy on the production side of things, but wouldn't it be the case if there was a big shift to e-publishing, that paper-publishing costs would plummet? As demand decreases, price decreases; so Gary, you should be able to publish the same books for relatively cheaper, right? The fear underlying this entire thread? I mean, we're not talking about New Coke here, or "Joey" (American TV series 2004-2006, shit spinoff to mega-hit "Friends"), or the theatrical release of GRINDHOUSE (not talking quality now - just box-office: giant hype, tanked thunderously); i.e., people seem to genuinely be taking to the new e-readers. If everyone balked, we'd not care. And, there's hope, if we now remember pogs, or Myspace, or INDIANA JONES AND THE KINGDOM OF THE CRYSTAL SKULL... lots of people might create a huge froth of activity for a while... but the love is ephemeral... and then soon, you might just see all over these hated Kindles where they were ignobly cast, into shallow filthy ditches reeking with little crawly bugs and nasty things.... | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.156.186.45 |
>>>If it was, Kindles would be three times heavier and much more awkward to hold... Even my aged crippled mother has no issue with holding a real book, hardback or paperback - and she's pretty much held together with so much surgically implanted bits of metal that we don't know whether to bury her or melt her down for scrap when she eventually shuffles off this mortal coil. (Genuinely she is. her back is held together with two long titanium rods, her shoulders have pins in as do her legs, she has an experimental implant in the top of her spine to control the migraine pains caused by the top of the metal rods rubbing) Regardless of the weight of a book, sitting in a W position in bed with the book resting on the knees is completely effortless. Size and weight of real books is possibly the weakest arguement in favour of the kindle. | ||
| Jonathan (Jonathan) Username: Jonathan Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.147.186.96 |
I use a Kindle for work and find it massively useful. I also am considering buying an e-book reader. I actually prefer 'real' books, but e-books are also a good thing in my opinion. It also is great for a booming market in short stories and novellas. I don't fear e-book and the way it will change my career at all. Piracy I have a massive issue with. It is effectively stealing and the more people steal e-books the less authors will get paid. People who love books do not steal books. | ||
| Stephen Theaker (Stephen_theaker) Username: Stephen_theaker Registered: 12-2009 Posted From: 94.169.3.199 |
Still, I'm right, aren't I? To truly replicate the experience of print Kindles would have to be much heavier and more awkward to hold. They're far too light and convenient to feel like real books. And the way you can easily read all the text on the page without breaking the spine? It's almost as if they're not trying to recreate the experience of reading a paper book at all. The other thing I hate about Kindles is the way books, even the most obscure ones, are delivered instantly. To really emulate paper books, they should make you wait two to four weeks for anything but a mainstream book to be delivered. | ||
| Stephen Theaker (Stephen_theaker) Username: Stephen_theaker Registered: 12-2009 Posted From: 94.169.3.199 |
(Replying there to Weber rather than Jonathan.) | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 178.118.79.160 |
Piracy I have a massive issue with. It is effectively stealing and the more people steal e-books the less authors will get paid. There isn't a single student I know who has actually paid for the software we have to learn to work with - in our case PhotoShop and InDesign. They cost an arm and a leg. As for e-books: are we supposed to get into them solely out of compassion for those poor writers and publishers who otherwise don't make a profit? | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 61.216.51.143 |
Not in my experience, Weber. I've had chronic pain for over two decades now and reading can be pretty damned painful. I certainly can't read lying or sitting in bed, it's excruciating. The only position I can read in with any degree of comfort is upright on a supportive, comfortable chair. Even then it gets painful before long. The number of books I've read has declined over the years as my pain levels have increased. I actually find the Kindle better in this respect. | ||
| Jonathan (Jonathan) Username: Jonathan Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.147.186.96 |
"As for e-books: are we supposed to get into them solely out of compassion for those poor writers and publishers who otherwise don't make a profit?" Sorry, but this is theft pure and simple. Are you saying e-books inherently have less value than the paper copy. Aren't words what count? | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.165.37.175 |
Regarding waiting for real books to arrive (never long in my experience), there seems to be a problem these days not only with empathy but patience. Reading a book physically has been that for centuries. Like audio books for the blind, there's nothing wrong with anything else for special requirements, is there? That shouldn't change the experience of reading generally, should it? (That's just isolating that point. I realise this argument is becomning unstraightforward. There are so many interconnecting angles. That giant unknown leap again). | ||
| Jonathan (Jonathan) Username: Jonathan Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.147.186.96 |
Also, the more publishers can't get profit from a text, the less they'll be able to publish. Piracy of e-books could put small and independent publishers out of business, effectively silencing the voices of some very interesting writers. | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 178.118.79.160 |
Sorry to hear about your continuing predicament, Huw. In your case (and who knows how many other people) e-books certainly are a boon! | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.165.37.175 |
I agree with that Jonathan, of course. I don't think Hubert is a thief. I used to reel-to-reel tape stuff from my friend's records in the 60s. But isn't this the isolated point: that ebooks are letting piracy of books to become easier. | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 178.118.79.160 |
Sorry, but this is theft pure and simple. Have you ever given one of your books to a good friend to read, Jonathan? I can't imagine that you haven't. Well, that too is considered theft. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.165.37.175 |
That is so true, Hubert. Which of course destroys my view that ebooks eases piracy. | ||
| Stephen Theaker (Stephen_theaker) Username: Stephen_theaker Registered: 12-2009 Posted From: 94.169.3.199 |
Picking a few books from my desktop here... Complete Cosmicomics - 570g Routledge Concise History of SF - 417g A Serpent Uncoiled - 569g McSweeney's 38 - 444g Straight Razor Cure - 420g Queen of Kings - 595g Johannes Cabal the Fear Institute 476g The Watchers - 887g Great Stories of Crime and Detection IV - 923g In contrast the Kindle - and hence the dozens of books I have on it - weighs 223g. And that affects my reading choices, even if it wouldn't affect Weber's, partly because I like to take the book I'm reading everywhere with me. None of the paper books listed above made it into my suitcase when I went on holiday earlier this month... | ||
| Jonathan (Jonathan) Username: Jonathan Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.147.186.96 |
There's a difference between lending something to someone and repeatedly illegally downloading e-books for free. And no, to be clear, I'm not accusing anyone of anything. I just think there's this weird attitude on the internet that if you can get something for free you should, regardless of morality or legality. An author has put in the same amount of effort and blood sweat and tears whatever the format of the finished product. | ||
| Stephen Theaker (Stephen_theaker) Username: Stephen_theaker Registered: 12-2009 Posted From: 94.169.3.199 |
Des, it's not about impatience. I'm just saying, to truly recreate the experience of reading a print book, the Kindle would have to slow down the delivery of ebooks. They arrive far too quickly, and you don't even have to pay for postage. Plus, they'd should also remove the ability to change the size of the text, because print books don't let you do that. If the size of the text doesn't suit you, they should make you buy a large print ebook edition. That would be the only way to truly recreate the experience of reading in print. It's like everything that's good and important about reading is being left behind in our rush to use new technology! As far as piracy goes, ebooks don't make it all that much easier. The complete back catalogues of most big authors were on file-sharing sites ten years ago, long before they were legally available as ebooks. It doesn't take a great deal of time to scan a book in. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.165.37.175 |
My Mum always told me (still does!) that good things come to those who wait. | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
>>Sorry to hear about your continuing predicament, Huw. In your case (and who knows how many other people) e-books certainly are a boon!<< Huw beat me to it as I was just going to post on the same issue. There are a lot of people on the Fibromyalgia Association forum who have turned to using ereaders, as they're much easier for anyone with a pain condition. Also, as Stephen points out, there's the issue of changing print size, which can be done easily with ebooks. I have a hell of a job reading some books with very small print! So there certainly are pros for ebooks - but that doesn't stop me from prefering the real thing personally. Like Weber and Des, for me it's the whole experience of holding a book, seeing it, feeling it, turning the pages, smelling it (yes, I know, I'm weird ) - ain't nothing like the real thing (in the words of Marvin Gaye and Tammi Tyrell). | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 178.118.79.160 |
There's a difference between lending something to someone and repeatedly illegally downloading e-books for free. Only if one were to set up one's own little shop in order to make a profit. Otherwise I can see no difference. Releasing slightly improved versions of a piece of popular software some professionals (and even non-professionals) cannot afford not to have every two or three years - now there's a proper little racket. | ||
| Stephen Theaker (Stephen_theaker) Username: Stephen_theaker Registered: 12-2009 Posted From: 94.169.3.199 |
Good things come to those who wait? Well, they're waiting 1 to 3 weeks for the print edition of Nemonymous Nights at the moment. You must be very unhappy about those Kindle people getting their copies in 1 to 3 seconds - they're missing out on a crucial part of the reading experience! (And paying half the price at that...) | ||
| Stephen Theaker (Stephen_theaker) Username: Stephen_theaker Registered: 12-2009 Posted From: 94.169.3.199 |
And of course, the price issue is another whole thing. Like Gary Fry says above, the Kindle creates the opportunity for small press books to be profitable - and to be priced competitively. I love what Chomu are doing, but selling paperbacks for more than a tenner must be an uphill battle. Whereas their ebooks can be priced fairly cheaply and still make a good profit. I don't know whether the Kindle market in the UK is big enough yet to make small press books all that successful, but the opportunity is growing. I'd be exploiting it myself if I didn't waste so much time on forums! | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 178.118.79.160 |
Off for a pint. Take care. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.165.37.175 |
Well, I'm an amateur (see HA of HA). The publishers of my own work (Chomu and InkerMen) know best as they always will. | ||
| Stephen Theaker (Stephen_theaker) Username: Stephen_theaker Registered: 12-2009 Posted From: 94.169.3.199 |
Caroline, I had a copy of Battlefield Earth whose smell would make you vomit. Appropriately, as I realised while reading the book! The best smelling book I have is probably The Boy Who Kicked Pigs, which I bet is in your collection too... | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
>>The Boy Who Kicked Pigs, which I bet is in your collection too...<< Oh yes! I've actually got a signed-by-the-author unbound uncorrected proof copy of that. And there's another case (well, two cases) where real books beat ebooks hands down. For someone like me who collects (a) signed books and (b) uncorrected proofs (and even signed uncorrected proofs) then real books win hands down. | ||
| Stephen Theaker (Stephen_theaker) Username: Stephen_theaker Registered: 12-2009 Posted From: 94.169.3.199 |
My Kindle's actually chock-a-block with ARCs... One I read a while back even included a series of blunt editorial comments..! I get that people like getting books signed - my copy of Pigs is signed too - but to me it's like saying CDs have the edge over vinyl because you can use them as mirrors. Yes, it's an advantage, but it's an advantage that's oblique to the object's main purpose. | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
>>but it's an advantage that's oblique to the object's main purpose.<< Ah! Perhaps you've hit the nail on the head as to why so many of us disagree on this whole issue. If a person believes that a book's main (only?) purpose is as something to read, then of course a kindle is just as good as a paper book, if not better for the reasons people have stated here. But, for me, a book is more than just an object to read. It's more than just words on a page. That's what I mean by "the whole experience of a book" - and that's what I think Des and Weber are talking about too. Clearly, there's something about paper books which provides additional pleasure to people like us, over an above simply reading words on a page. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.165.37.175 |
Yes, hit the nail on the head. Also, when we've landed on the other side, either the Kindle will be seen to be a flash in the firewood or it is something that will change the face of writing and reading (for good or ill). | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.165.37.175 |
Also - I don't know what it was about, but there was a trailer for something on TV tonightshowing films of people putting books on bonfires. It made me think... and hope. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.107.130.149 |
I still think the whole issue is fundamentally about the issue addressed above by my post on Saturday, August 13, 2011 - 06:17 pm. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 94.197.127.119 |
When you look at ebook pricing in the UK (at least), bigger publishers are missing the market by a mile and overpricing. A book's ideal release sequence, to my mind, would be hardcover, paperback, ebook. Each costing considerably less as they come out. If someone's gonna charge me as good as the same rate for an ebook as a hardcover or paperback, I'll always - unless the typeface is seriously crap - opt for the treebook. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.165.37.175 |
To make your post easier to find, Gary, it's here: http://www.knibbworld.com/campbell-cgi/discus/show.cgi?tpc=1&post=80619#POST8061 9 I said straight after it what I thought about it. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.107.130.149 |
The phenomenology of books. The affection we have for them. The emotions this one stirred. The memories that resummons. We're distraight when they're lost in a house fire. We grasp them as if it's our memories, our critical and profound development periods, we fondle in our hands. That's hard to give up. I guess doing the same with a Kindle makes all books the same. There's no broken spine that makes us smile remembering how it broke (we sat on it while going to work on our first job). There are no telephone numbers of first lovers in the margins. That stain on the front - didn't we acquire that on holiday in . . . where was it? Ah yes, Majorca: our first time abroad. Wonderful. The phenomenology of (paper) books. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.165.37.175 |
“Every book has a soul. The soul of the person who wrote it and of those who read it and lived and dreamed with it. Every time a book changes hands, every time someone runs his eyes down its pages, its spirit grows and strengthens.” ---from ‘The Shadow Of The Wind’ by Carlos Ruiz Zafon | ||
| Stephen Theaker (Stephen_theaker) Username: Stephen_theaker Registered: 12-2009 Posted From: 94.169.3.199 |
Des has wondered a few times in this thread, and I think also in the duplicate one on Shocklines, whether the Kindle is a flash in the pan, a fad... I think the thing to remember in that regard is that Kindle books aren't just being read on Amazon's Kindle devices. If they were, I don't think they'd be having this impact, or achieving this level of sales. Dedicated reading devices of that type may well become obsolete, or be superseded at some point. It was only a little while ago, with the release of the iPad, that commentators were declaring the Kindle dead in the water. What they didn't realise was that lots of people - including me - would install the Kindle app, buy a few books for it, and then buy a Kindle to read them on more conveniently. In June 2011 550,000 Android devices were being activated every day... and each of them, as well as being a phone or a tablet, is also a Kindle reader. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.165.37.175 |
If I search my heart, I don't think it is a fad (which is a shame for the reasons given by Joel above and the intrinsicity of treebooks explained just now by Gary F). | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.107.130.149 |
Books are talismanic. I'd argue that, owing to our embodied nature, virtual talismans don't work so well. They're like a ship's anchor made of something that floats. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.165.37.175 |
As an aside and to repeat what I said earlier, I feel we should never steer away from discrete debates just because they are subsumed by a *seemingly* bigger debate. Reality is built with several modules that brick-build the whole - and one brick out of place can bring the whole edifice down. Brainstorming is one way to stress-test the world. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 2.24.18.145 |
We're talking too much about whether it's nicer for the individual reader to have a book in print or digital format – the consumer perspective – rather than how the change impacts on prospects for writers and for literary culture. It's a foregone conclusion that paper books will disappear in a generation – that's not a human generation, of course, but a digital product generation, which used to be three years but is now more like six months. The e-book will itself be swiftly replaced by other digital formats that are smaller, faster, more disposable and more sparkly. How books are written will change very quickly as a result. Short stories will have to be not much longer than a Twitter feed, and novels broken up into chapters of that length. All pre-digital novels will of course be rewritten to meet the needs of the new 'market', in a global digital version of the Reader's Digest Library, with the emphasis on accessibility and instant impact. Writers will be also required to provide their novels with nine or ten alternative endings to improve value for money, and to incorporate 'content' determined by the media company's current marketing campaign (with a focus on whatever is the current market trend, and including cameo appearances from characters in other products within the same brand). Once literary culture is no longer in the hands of those who care about it and have a talent for developing it, merely in the hands of media corporations knocking out 'product' along lines dictated by marketing executives, then the game is up. I'm tired of being told that I am just afraid of technology. I make a living from reporting on new technologies for health and education, and I have intense enthusiasm for that theme. What I see as unhealthy, and indeed destructive, is not new technology itself but its prevailing impact in the context of corporate capitalism, dedicated only to exploitation, chillingly indifferent to anything except profit. A few months ago I saw a new hand-held reading device developed by a Welsh company. When passed slowly over a printed page, line by line, it translates the text into Braille marks on a flexible surface that the reader can feel with a fingertip. So a blind person can go into a library and read almost any text. That is wonderful. But it represents the commitment and inspiration of specialists working to meet real human needs, not marketing executives manufacturing 'trends' in order to maximise short-term corporate profit. As Dorothy Baker said about the moment of a human death, there is a difference. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.107.130.149 |
>>>>How books are written will change very quickly as a result. Short stories will have to be not much longer than a Twitter feed, and novels broken up into chapters of that length. All pre-digital novels will of course be rewritten to meet the needs of the new 'market', in a global digital version of the Reader's Digest Library, with the emphasis on accessibility and instant impact. Writers will be also required to provide their novels with nine or ten alternative endings to improve value for money, and to incorporate 'content' determined by the media company's current marketing campaign (with a focus on whatever is the current market trend, and including cameo appearances from characters in other products within the same brand). This is an answer to the question I asked. I can see what you're saying now. I honestly didn't know. However, I still don't see the technology as the "pusher" of these changes, rather the medium through which they're channelled. Again, I ask: if the ebook was banned tomorrow, would publishing not get fucked over? Isn't the ebook merely an accelerant in this regard? | ||
| Stephen Theaker (Stephen_theaker) Username: Stephen_theaker Registered: 12-2009 Posted From: 94.169.3.199 |
I don't know if it's so bleak as all that, Joel. Why assume the publishers of the future will be worse than the publishers of today? We could be heading for a situation where smallish companies like PS are able to put out the mass market Kindle editions of novels by people like Ramsey, as well as the hardback collector's editions. That wouldn't be so terrible, and could actually lead to more freedom in writing. I think you're right, though, that writing - commercial writing, at least - will change; I mentioned some thoughts along those lines above. For one thing, canny publishers will pay a great deal of attention to the section of the book that appears in the Kindle preview, because if your readers don't finish that they won't go on to buy the book. | ||
| Stevie Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 82.4.19.77 |
Joel is correct. We are witnessing the death throes of what will come to be thought of as a golden age of artistic purity and integrity. If we survive at all as a species it will be as a dumbed down, speeded up and factory fed planet of technologically adept morons. Philip K. Dick predicted this back in the 1950s - see 'The Variable Man' (1953), etc. Cling on to the good stuff while ya still can, folks... the future is another country. | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 178.118.79.160 |
Short stories will have to be not much longer than a Twitter feed, and novels broken up into chapters of that length. All pre-digital novels will of course be rewritten to meet the needs of the new 'market', in a global digital version of the Reader's Digest Library That is the gist of Captain Beatty's speech in Fahrenheit 451, where he explains to Montag how society came to be what it is. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.165.37.175 |
Even if some of these latter points are only slightly right, anyone who reads or writes an ebook is contributing to this outcome? | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.160.72.29 |
Well, I guess in six months time we'll all know whether Joel's prophecy is correct. I think physical books will be around for a long time, personally. I don't believe that short stories will all be not much more than fifty words long, either. But again, that's just me. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.165.37.175 |
I'm not very knowledgeable about twitter: but is a 'twitter feed' the same as the 140 characters maximum? If so, I agree that that prediction seems unlikely. By the way, my wife and I bought a Kindle a few months ago. But she so far is the only one in this house who uses it. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 94.197.127.225 |
Dumbing down is here to stay. I've been expecting the introduction of emoticons into fictional works for a while now, but even I was surprised to hear the next generation of ereaders are reported to have sound effects incorporated. Thunder and rain, etc, machine guns going off. The audio version of an emoticon. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.25.3.116 |
He smiled thinly. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.25.3.116 |
Excerpt from the new 'emotionalised' novel from Shaun 'the pioneer' Hutson: "The killer looked sadistically determined . When he turned to examine the girl, she appeared miserable . That made him angry  . She noticed his expression and grew embarrassed  . That cheered him up, but in a sinister, headstrong way . She responded by offering him a kiss to calm him down  . But he was having none of it and remained impassive . Then he plunged the knife into her guts, making her face register confusion  . Then he cackled, cackled, cackled into the night ." Available soon on Kindle. | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
Reading all the posts on here since my last post yesterday was making me quite depressed - for the future of real books and literature generally - until I got to Gary's last post. Now I can't stop laughing! Gary, that's absolutely brilliant. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.25.3.116 |
I'm fond, and a staunch advocate, of the recency effect. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 94.197.127.155 |
There's a good gag at the Kindle's expense in Denis Lehane's Moonlight Mile, but it's not really a one liner you could reproduce here. The book's brilliant, by the way. Lehane's. Do read his stuff. And if you think Gary's post is funny, Caroline, wait until you see the emoticons they're developing for the ebook reissues of Jackie Collins's books...! | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
>>And if you think Gary's post is funny, Caroline, wait until you see the emoticons they're developing for the ebook reissues of Jackie Collins's books...!<< | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.165.37.175 |
This is a very sad thread. But it is a happy one, too, that things resonate by turns - in ringing true or untrue with so many friends.. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.25.3.116 |
>>>And if you think Gary's post is funny, Caroline, wait until you see the emoticons they're developing for the ebook reissues of Jackie Collins's books...! Here's a sneak preview: "69" | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 2.24.10.55 |
Sound effects included in e-books? I'm sorry, but that's more absurd than any of my sarcastic 'predictions' above, which means none of the latter are unlikely any more. Basically, whatever is most stupid, insulting and pointless, that is what will happen. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.148.241.163 |
Last few books I've ordered from Amazon have arrived within days rather than weeks. Even from the States it's rare I have to wait more than a week. If I'm in a physical book shop, I have the book in my hands then and there. If a book is on kindle in the US you can't necessarily download it onto an English kindle. If it's not licensed for your country in e-book format, you just can't buy it. With paper books, you can... And, unless you have a condition similar to Huw's, or you're missing a limb, books are not in any way awkward to hold. They're just not. Anyone who thinks they are has just fallen victim to the lies that the kindle manufacturers spread about real books. Ironically, hefty hardbacks are easier to read while eating because you can lat them flat on the table as you eat and therefore still have full use of both hands. I have to eat one-handed frequently while reading mass market paperbacks though... But that's not an issue. When you think about it, if a book is a real hefty tome, there tends to be a reason for it, pictures, diagrams etc that a kindle can't handle. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.197.106 |
Why's so glum? God, it's like Terrence Davies rasping on about his lost Liverpool. Post-literate society is going to be gr8. I'm building a thunderdome in the garden. All future posts from me will be fingerpaintings. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.40.254.202 |
Giving us the finger, eh? And yes, alas, t'was a true report on the BBC News this morning, when they were chatting over the paper review. Ereaders with sound effects. Mind you, the Audio option on the Kindle can be fun. The guy voice sounds a bit like Stephen Hawking. The gal voice sounds like Hawking too, but with a more pronounced American accent. Because I'm of a mind to, every now and again I fire up a Sherlock Holmes story and get John Watson's narration by Mrs Hawking US. I'm odd that way. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.197.106 |
 | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.148.241.163 |
I agree almost completely protot, although i would use less flour and more eggwhite in the recipe | ||
| Stevie Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 82.4.19.77 |
I tuck my paperbacks under the edge of the plate, Weber, unless they're too thick, whereupon I use one of my other books - I always carry at least three or four - to hold down the thinnest half - without, of course, damaging the spine! I love this process... if that makes me sad, then I guess I'm a ridiculously happy sad individual. | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 61.216.50.66 |
"I always carry at least three or four - to hold down the thinnest half - without, of course, damaging the spine!" Stevie, these days I take my Kindle out with me (if I take anything at all), and the only spine damaged is my own! I prefer physical books, of course... who here doesn't? But the Kindle allows me to save a lot of space (I've literally no room any more since moving to a smaller apartment) and carry lots of books around with me wherever I go - this is especially useful if I'm traveling or spending time in hospital. It's also, as I mentioned above, a little less painful for people like me to read in bed. For me, those are the main advantages, and I think it's good to have that choice. I wouldn't be without my 'regular' books, though, and if I had to choose, obviously it'd be the collection on my bookshelves. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.25.3.116 |
The answer is: Switzerland has better snow. Cushions the blow of falls. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.165.37.175 |
I prefer physical books, of course... who here doesn't? ================= A good question. My vote is preferring physical books. (If you believe some of the arguments above, ebooks will, sooner rather than later, diminish the availability of physical books and alter the requirements that publishers need from writers etc). | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 61.216.45.169 |
The Kindle isn't the same thing as a 'physical' book, and comparing the two directly is a bit pointless, in my opinion, because it's a question of function as well as aesthetics. The Kindle allows you to carry many books around with you anywhere, and it's extremely convenient and comfortable to use. A book, although obviously more aesthetically pleasing for many of us (the feel of the paper and binding, the artwork, the smell, etc.), is limited to just that one book, which is fine if that's what you want. I like to be able to switch between both: my traditionally bound books at home, mostly, and my Kindle to read when I'm out, or when it's more convenient for me to use at home. The end result is basically the same with both. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.165.37.175 |
I agree with Huw. But I think everyone would agree that it is still leaping into the unknown short- and long-term effects that the simple existence of ebooks may have on writing, reading, publishing etc. (for good or ill)... | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 2.24.30.50 |
This is the point. It's not about whether people who have and enjoy books can derive value from also having an e-reader. That goes without saying. The question is, how do we feel about the imminent end of book publishing and bookselling due to corporate investment in digital media? When the global media corporations who own almost 100% of commercial publishers drop book publishing, book publishing will end except as an amateur, minority hobby like collecting model railway sets. That's how business works. And I've yet to see anyone on this thread answering the points in Morrison's article about the very negative consequences for writers. Is that not of interest to any of us? | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 147.252.230.148 |
"When the global media corporations who own almost 100% of commercial publishers drop book publishing, book publishing will end except as an amateur, minority hobby like collecting model railway sets." If you want a vision of the future, picture JK Rowling's name stamping on a human face forever. Double-plus good, these Harry Potter books. To be serious for a bit, this is obviously of great concern. I think we can learn from looking at the film industry, which it parallels quite closely. This industry has been in the midst of a quiet nervous breakdown for some time now. The concentration on sequels and tie-ins reflects not just the inherent conservatism of those in charge, but it also reflects the state of flux that exists. Technology is changing things so rapidly that there's no solid earth anywhere on which to lay a foundation. The gulf between big and small films has widened, and I think that in the future only the tiny minority who agree to confine their artistic ambitions to a business model will be able to make an actual career in the field. It will be come a widespread hobby, which is not all a bad thing. The word amateur has become a negative one, but its original connotation is rather noble and pure. Can we make this into a very positive thing? Can the depth and nuance and power of the written word be obtained non-verbally by media we have yet to invent? | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
Joel, "it's even worse than it appears," but it's not alright. Because I too see with horror a world where "book publishing will end except as an amateur, minority hobby like collecting model railway sets," but for different reasons perhaps, than you. Again, it's related to Proto's take on the "nervous breakdown" in film, but again, for slightly different reasons - which I personally think are more obvious, and more horrifying. Because as all things (entertainments) digital rapidly increase, as it all becomes more democratized, more accessible, all modes of distribution breakdown, and that's the most terrifying aspect of all, to me. Everyone wants it all for free, they expect it all for free, and they're going to get it all for free. The breakdown in distribution is what decimated the "rock" music industry. It is this breakdown that Hollywood is reeling (pun?) over, and that the publishing industry too must terribly contend with - it already has, in different ways in the past, and we only have to look at history to be newly scared: free TV came along, and stabbed daggers in the rapidly-increasing reading populace (and that also began leveling film's massive profits [and output]; and then TV's crap was worse than film's crap, because the public wasn't expected to pay for it anyway). If (A) you can't control methods of distribution, you can't create money, and so business models fail; and related (B) if there are no "gatekeepers" (whatever you think of the corporate behemoths, Joel, they were kinds of gatekeepers) quality degrades, and all values are leveled, and so relatively indiscernible. It's not the appearance of the Kindle, so much, that scares me. It's the reality right now that anyone anywhere can publish upon it, for free, that really spells the end of the craft of writing... and yes, I hope I'm being hysterical here.... | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
Copyright laws exist not so much, really, to greedily protect an individual creator's rights into some dim and distant future: it's to protect the entire business structure; because - like making your own money printing-press in your basement - all value breaks down, if it's no longer under the strictest control. I was doing a search on the internet for when Solomon Kane would finally be released here in the States on DVD (it's been like two years now!) A couple google searches brought up a site somewhere in China, where I could youtube-like watch it for free if I wanted, and a good version of it, too. I believe we're already at the point where you can stream what's on the net onto your entertainment system; oh hell, the iPad is just fine for this kind of thing; if not that, my mofo smart phone. This is all really frightening, moreso for entertainment execs - how the fuck do you make a movie anymore, and get anyone to pay for it, when it can't be sold to anyone anymore?.... | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 147.252.230.148 |
Printing money is a good analogy. I do feel that the music and film industries have their own greed to blame for people's lack of guilt about committing piracy. But I do feel sorry for artists these days. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.165.37.175 |
Just seen this on Facebook as part of a well-know writer’s status today: “Make sure you review a book today. Talk them up. Promote, publicize, keep literature alive.” I think that should be the watchword wherever possible. And if not possible, review another book you can do that with. I certainly try to do that with my real-time reviews. Has cheered me up today. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.79.54.93 |
In The Gutenberg Galaxy, Marshall McLuhan wrote of the inevitable uneasiness that exists when a new technology for communication becomes both available and viable: "An age in rapid transition is one which exists on the frontier between two cultures and between conflicting technologies. Every moment of its consciousness is an act of translation of each of these cultures into the other. Today we live on the frontier between five centuries of mechanism and the new electronics." | ||
| Stevie Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 82.4.19.77 |
The "new electronics" just happens to be unsustainable given the ever expanding human population and drain on planetary resources that has resulted in the current global economic meltdown, the ongoing energy crisis that threatens to see the lights go out within the next decade and the spiralling worldwide civil unrest we are witnessing on the News every day. The human race is teetering on the brink of a new Dark Age that, ironically, may be the only saviour Art has to call on. The alternative is something akin to what Margaret Atwood visualised in 'Oryx And Crake'... the elite sealing themselves in high security domes until the howling masses outside (i.e. us) are either exterminated or break in. Either way we're fucked if things continue the way they're going. I foresee the concept of Eugenics undergoing a facelift in the not too distant future... God help us all! | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 2.24.30.10 |
We have the resources to feed and house everyone in the world. What has failed is the capitalist system, currently in a deep self-inflicted crisis, and with no prospect of delivering anything in the long term but more poverty, inequality and war. As long as five per cent of the population possess ninety per cent of the wealth (the exact figure varies, but the concentration of wealth in the hands of a few is steadily tightening), and use it to control governments and media, there will be uncontrollable waste and destructive exploitation. And there will not be true democracy, because there will not be any alternative to further inequality and exploitation. The 'unrest' you speak of is the only positive sign for the future. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.79.113.255 |
I concur, Joel. So what would you like to see happen in the arts? Politics? An entire generation has now been raised mutely staring into gadgets and clicking them like rosary beads. How can any political movement overcome that? That's not a rhetorical question, by the way. On a slightly different topic, I think that the chaos in the arts and its collapse may be a necessary evolutionary step. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.79.113.255 |
From here: http://www.ibiblio.org/cmc/mag/1995/sep/doherty.html The primary translators between these cultures are artists and artisans; and McLuhan believed the current translation, from mechanistic culture to interactive cultures, was turning to one specific kind of artist: "Science-fiction writing today presents situations that enable us to perceive the potential of new technologies. Formerly, the problem was to invent new forms of labor-saving devices. Today, the reverse is the problem. Now we have to adjust, not to invent. We have to find the environments in which it will be possible to live with our new inventions. Big Business has learned to tap the s-f writer." ------ "At this moment in history, Western culture exists within the realm of the written word; the tools of writing are so ingrained in our consciousness, says McLuhan, that the way we see, the way we draw, the way we do math, the very way we exist is affected by the linearity imposed on our (sub)consciousness by our societal literacy. Writing has been interiorized by our society. It was not always so; before Gutenberg's press allowed for mass-production of print, the phonetic alphabet itself was a specialized tool available only to manuscripters and clerics. But how do we know when we have moved to this interiorization, have moved from seeing a type of literacy as a tool to existing within it as a realm? McLuhan has claimed that we might accomplish this only with complete hindsight, often the hindsight of many generations." | ||
| Stevie Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 82.4.19.77 |
We're singing from the same hymn sheet, Joel. The capitalist experiment has failed, quite spectacularly, as the bastards at the top always knew it would. The attitude of profit-obsessed big business and the power-hungry political parties who kowtow to them has always been to concentrate on the "here and now" and the contents of their own pockets, with the welfare of future generations merely an annoying distraction (like a mosquito whining in the ear) to pay lip service to. And it's been that way right from the dawn of the Industrial Revolution to the crumbling of the whole sorry edifice we are watching today. Sooner or later the realisation is going to dawn, at the top of the heap, that nothing short of widespread extermination of the plebs (i.e. us) is going to save their grubby greedy lifestyles. I fear the gloves are about to come off, from on high, and agree that organised worldwide popular revolution and the restructuring of how we govern this planet is the only chance us plebs have of survival at any level of comfort. Fat chance... they hold all the Aces. | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 178.116.59.77 |
An entire generation has now been raised mutely staring into gadgets and clicking them like rosary beads. My thought exactly - the Nintendo/Gameboy generation. Before long they'll forget how to talk. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.165.37.175 |
I think that Proto quote should be iconographised. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
My thought exactly - the Nintendo/Gameboy generation. Before long they'll forget how to talk. Massive generalisation, that. My seven year-old son, for one, has a huge vocabulary (far more expansive than I did at his age). And all the friends I know who have kids are raising them to chat, debate, have opinions, and ration the use of gadgets and consoles. It's like watching a queue of those blokes with "The End is Nigh" placards on here sometimes. | ||
| Stephen Theaker (Stephen_theaker) Username: Stephen_theaker Registered: 12-2009 Posted From: 94.169.3.199 |
I agree with Zed. You'd expect writers to see at least some upside in technology that puts a bookshop in the pocket of every commuter... My own seven-year-old has been neck-and-neck with me in number of books read for most of the year. She reads paper books, books on the Kindle, books on the iPad, listens to audiobooks. How she reads it doesn't matter to her, it's just that she gets to read it. Just the same as when I was a kid - I liked to buy new books where I could, but if not I'd buy a knackered 5p copy, or get them from the school library, or the town library, or buy a Dayrover and travel West Yorkshire to find the library that did have them... | ||
| Jonathan (Jonathan) Username: Jonathan Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.143.178.131 |
This adds an interesting thread to the debate: http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2011/aug/30/death-books-exaggerated?CMP=twt_gu | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 178.116.59.77 |
Stephen and Zed: I sincerely hope you are right and I am wrong. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.25.3.116 |
I grew up playing ZX Spectrum. With the exception of some Dahl, I didn't read a book till my teens. I've done OK since, I think. | ||
| Stephen Theaker (Stephen_theaker) Username: Stephen_theaker Registered: 12-2009 Posted From: 94.169.3.199 |
I so wish I'd had a Kindle when I was ten. I could have found a brand new book to buy every week with my one pound of pocket money, had access to a virtually unlimited supply of free out-of-copyright books, and read long previews of any book I couldn't yet afford. Jonathan - that's a good article. There was a similar one in the last McSweeney's: US libraries at all-time membership and circulation highs, adult literacy at an all-time high, 751 million books sold in 2010 (*not* including ebooks) compared to 650 million in 2005. | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 178.116.59.77 |
I didn't have a Kindle when I was ten, nor did I need one. There were books all around me: my parents were readers long before I was born. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.165.37.175 |
I think all these viewpoints substantiate any such current discussions necessarily being inconclusive. But this discussion, meanwhile, has given me, for one, much new food for thought on this subject. Yes, the book has been evolving for centuries, bridge to bridge. Now we're leaping over a vast unknown chasm, and we are still in mid leap - | ||
| Stephen Theaker (Stephen_theaker) Username: Stephen_theaker Registered: 12-2009 Posted From: 94.169.3.199 |
So were mine, Hubert - doesn't mean they owned the books I wanted to read, though. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
To counter Stevie's dark pessimism, perhaps the beneficent visions of "Star Trek" provide some kind of answer. It's a story of the ultimate technological advancement, the Enterprise; which comes from an Earth that has solved all its problems and become a real-live Utopia (note how, like unknowable Heaven, we never really get to witness that Utopia, either). The ultimate technology, this space ship, is good: it provides (free!) food, shelter, luxurious comfort, entertainment, sociability, non-soul-killing work (staring at lights and walking around with clipboards looks pretty dull to me, but I'll just take the premise's word for it), wonder, etc. The sexes, races, and personalities are distinct and working in harmony: it's a hive mentality, a socialist paradise, but individuality is by no means erased, or even degraded. And perfected technology, the ship, is the glue that actually holds them fast, and united. The ultimate purpose of this ultimate technology, the Enterprise has no meaning, however, if it doesn't explore entirely new worlds, with benevolent, if detached, aims; most of those worlds are hostile to it altogether, but it doesn't preclude this "ongoing mission." And: human ingenuity/empathy (Kirk, McCoy), logic (Spock), and technology (the ship), are the triumvirate that can solve any problem anyway. So there you go. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.66.23.11 |
>>>So were mine, Hubert - doesn't mean they owned the books I wanted to read, though. As long as the books you want to read are published o Kindle in your country you're fine. You can't import a kindle file from the states. You can import a print book. If most midlist authors go kindle to save on publishers printing costs (as has been been projected) then I will never again be able to read a mid list author from the states who gets no exposure on this side of the pond. People liek Steven Sherrill whose last book was not printed in this country, but which I still own due to the remarkable technology of print on paper and a jiffy bag to post it to me. The great improvement in technology that the Kindle offers means that the publishers can with-hold your books from you according to where in the world you live. Great that. innit. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.40.253.187 |
My parents didn't have books in the house when I was growing up. But that didn't mean I didn't have books. The local library did the job for me. And Stan Lee taught me to read, when I bought a Fantastic Four comic from the newsagents when I was about 4, instead of the penny chews the money had been for. Ha - Joel's turning into the Bill Hicks of horror fiction. And let's face it, there're many worse things to be... | ||
| Stephen Theaker (Stephen_theaker) Username: Stephen_theaker Registered: 12-2009 Posted From: 94.169.3.199 |
"And, unless you have a condition similar to Huw's, or you're missing a limb, books are not in any way awkward to hold. They're just not. Anyone who thinks they are has just fallen victim to the lies that the kindle manufacturers spread about real books." Or, you know, has actually used a Kindle and can compare them... These things are all comparative. Books are nice, but in comparison to the Kindle a 1kg book is very awkward. I'm currently reading a 2.3kg book, and by gum I wish it was on the Kindle instead! I can only read it comfortably while sitting at my desk. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.79.246.224 |
"Sooner or later the realisation is going to dawn, at the top of the heap, that nothing short of widespread extermination of the plebs (i.e. us) is going to save their grubby greedy lifestyles." No, they need us (barely) alive to suppor them. The erosion of our time and security is the best way for them to legally enslave us. Orwell got it right in 1984 - the idea is to grind us down, keep us barely functioning, so that we have enough strength and time to survive and serve, but not enough to cause change. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.66.23.11 |
If owning a kindle makes you so anal you sit there weighing all your books to aid in your decision whether or not to read them then I'm really glad I don't own one. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.66.23.11 |
>>Orwell got it right in 1984 - the idea is to grind us down, keep us barely functioning, so that we have enough strength and time to survive and serve, but not enough to cause change. Orwell's real name was of course Eric Blair. Ironic that his namesake (and I believe possibly his grandson) Tony seems to have kickstarted a lot of his predictions... | ||
| Stephen Theaker (Stephen_theaker) Username: Stephen_theaker Registered: 12-2009 Posted From: 94.169.3.199 |
"If owning a kindle makes you so anal you sit there weighing all your books to aid in your decision whether or not to read them then I'm really glad I don't own one." Wow, great argument, Weber. Sorry for spoiling your argument with actual facts. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.79.246.224 |
QI got almost political in one episode, talking about how prisoners in the USA (1% the population) are forced to provide cheap labour to industry - slavery by the back door. Craig has a point with Star Trek. Societies achieve what they want to achieve, not what's easiest to achieve. If we decide we want a utopia, we can have it. The details will work themselves out. Just they did for all other achievements. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.66.23.11 |
Actual fact is, books are not awkward to hold. Simple. | ||
| Stephen Theaker (Stephen_theaker) Username: Stephen_theaker Registered: 12-2009 Posted From: 94.169.3.199 |
They are much more awkward to hold than a Kindle. Also a fact, yes? | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.66.23.11 |
No Much more indicates that there is an awkwardness inherent. Which there isn't. Very very slightly more. Possibly. Much more is overstating a spurious arguement. | ||
| Stephen Theaker (Stephen_theaker) Username: Stephen_theaker Registered: 12-2009 Posted From: 94.169.3.199 |
So we've agreed on the principle that books are more awkward, just not on the degree. Thing is, you're arguing from the point of view of someone who hasn't used a Kindle, whereas I've been using one for a couple of years, and similar devices for a couple more than that, reading on them for hours every day - and frequently shifting back to read print books for review. When you've used the Kindle that much, the awkwardnesses, compromises and irritations of print stop being invisible. I'm not just spouting lies from a Kindle television advert, I'm talking from practical experience. Print books are still nice, and where I can't get the book I want any other way I'll still settle for them, but that's what it is for me now, settling... | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.66.23.11 |
I must have been some kind of superman when I read my nice big hardback copy of the EXTENDED version of Stephen King's the Stand! Bloody hell, actually holding a book and turning the pages and carrying it about with me. Wow! I'm great I am! | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.25.3.116 |
It served as a compensatory mechanism for your penis experience. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.66.23.11 |
To hear you talk Steve it's a wonder that books were ever popular with the clumsiness and awkwardness of actually having to - Gasp! - turn a page. I can't buy into that argument at all. Must remember to stop putting the extra e in the middle of the word argument. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.66.23.11 |
@Gary - I told you that in cofidence you bastard! | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.66.23.11 |
*confidence Must remember to learn to tyep. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.25.3.116 |
You didn't sound that confident, mate. | ||
| Stephen Theaker (Stephen_theaker) Username: Stephen_theaker Registered: 12-2009 Posted From: 94.169.3.199 |
And yet, Weber, pretty much every review of the Kindle on Amazon says exactly the same thing, e.g. first one on there: "The weight of the Kindle is a significant factor. A large paperback or hardback can be annoying to read, especially if you're in bed. Remember holding a heavy paperback above you? Or how annoying it is when you lie on your side and one page of the open book is easier to read than the other? Or pinning a book open on the pillow with one hand as you read? Well, all that's out the window." Obviously, it's not something that would ever would persuade you to buy or try a Kindle, but it's clearly a major factor in the huge changes we're seeing in publishing. Saying it's just a lie flies in the face of all the evidence. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.165.37.175 |
I could have done with a Kindle in the Wintry Fifties when we had outside loos , tin baths and no central heating. I had to keep putting one of my hands (in turn) beneath the bed-covers to prevent each of them freezing off (honestly)! - i.e reading a book with one hand, leaving the other to get warm, then vice versa. But I managed it. It was part of the reading regime. I loved it. Or I love it now, in retrospect! But I can understand what Stephen is saying for today's people. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.148.241.163 |
But that's all crap. I don't lie there with the book above me, I sit with it on my knees. and one side of the book is as read as the other (even on the odd occasion I lie on my side) because - with my glasses on - my eyes actually work. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.148.241.163 |
But I can understand what Stephen is saying for today's people That they're lazy fuckers who don't even have the energy to pin a book open with one hand? | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.148.241.163 |
Anyway - weight to one side for the moment - in what way is it an advantage that you can't read books from other countries on a Kindle? No one seems to be picking me up on that one. Or the fact that in a few years you'll have to replace the kindle because it will have broken down or been superceded etc? | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.148.241.163 |
From my post at 7:43 - it should say "Is as easy to read" For some reason two of the words that I typed have vanished | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.165.37.175 |
That they're lazy fuckers who don't even have the energy to pin a book open with one hand? ================ That should go in the Hall of Fame with the Protoquote about rosary beads, I reckon. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.25.3.116 |
On the other hand, Austria's snow doesn't melt so quickly. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.165.37.175 |
The owls are not what they seem, Gary. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.25.3.116 |
I don't give a hoot. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.148.241.163 |
Comment I just found on a review of a kindle device on amazon... Not sure how true it is about the actual life span but I know for a fact that rechargeable batteries will all die entirely within a number of years. "Not only is the hype about how long the battery charge will last (in fact after about 6 months this is halved) After a max of 2 years the battery will not hold any charge and on the Kindle it Cant be replaced!!!! So then you throw your Kindle away So if you average about one book a month that is 24 books at aprox £4 a book!!! And that is if you are lucky " | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.148.241.163 |
http://www.amazon.co.uk/review/R18SASURJM5H9L/ref=cm_cd_pg_pg3?ie=UTF8&cdForum=F x1MBNQD7E46X4&cdPage=3&asin=B002Y27P46&store=fiona-hardware&cdThread=Tx10VJ46USZ ZEYJ#wasThisHelpful | ||
| Stephen Theaker (Stephen_theaker) Username: Stephen_theaker Registered: 12-2009 Posted From: 94.169.3.199 |
"But that's all crap. I don't lie there with the book above me, I sit with it on my knees. and one side of the book is as read as the other (even on the odd occasion I lie on my side) because - with my glasses on - my eyes actually work." You should probably draw some diagrams so that everyone can make sure they're reading in one of your approved positions. People are obviously only buying Kindles because they're doing it wrong. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.148.241.163 |
Anyway - weight to one side for the moment - in what way is it an advantage that you can't read books from other countries on a Kindle? | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 178.116.59.77 |
Another advantage: I suppose with a Kindle one has more privacy. My Penguin edition of Lolita has a little girl on the cover (Girl and Cat by Balthus) who 'shows a leg', so to speak, and I'd think twice before taking the book with me on the train. People over here are less than broad-minded. | ||
| Tom_alaerts (Tom_alaerts) Username: Tom_alaerts Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.176.36.104 |
I'm quite positive vs e-books and their reader devices. What we do need though is: - one truly global standard, so that you can buy them for all sources to read them on all devices. - a way to lend e-books to friends. This social aspect is completely gone with all the digital rights management. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.253.77 |
in what way is it an advantage that you can't read books from other countries on a Kindle Because nobody else seems to want to answer this one: I've never had this problem. As far as I know it's up to the publisher/author if they put their product on Amazon - they choose which countries to distribute it to. I've never had a problem with not being able to get a book on Amazon UK. Sometimes they appear in the US first, but the lag is generally only a few days. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.148.241.163 |
A few people have ben posting on Wayne Simmon's facebook asking if Flu will be available on Kindle in the US. His reply is not yet. Don't know when. It is definitely available on kindle in this country. The states can't buy it on kindle because it's just not available for them. Digital rights management bollocks and all that, Therefore the new technology blocks you from buying books according to where you live. That ain't a good thing in my opinion. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.253.77 |
Wayne must only have sold the UK ebook rights. I know I sold worldwide ebook rights to Angry Robot and Solaris. Either the publisher didn't ask or Wayne held onto those rights for some reason. To counter your argument, this is possibly giving the author more control over their rights in different regions. A lot of publishers will probably follow the Angry Robot model and set up their own ebook stores, so anybody in any country can buy and download the file. It's still a fledgling format; there are lots of issues to be explored. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.253.77 |
http://www.amazon.com/Flu-ebook/dp/B0057WVQWM/ref=sr_1_3?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8& qid=1314734540&sr=1-3 There you go: FLU by Wayne Simmons, available for Kindle on Amazon US. I told you; I've never had a problem with this. | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 121.90.21.150 |
'My thought exactly - the Nintendo/Gameboy generation. Before long they'll forget how to talk.' Many might. However my youngest who is 13 later this year has been given the run of the library. She's allowed as many books as she wants (30 this week) ploughs through them and helps the librarian put incoming books away. I actually did try to cut down her having so many books out at any one time but have given up, and have come round to the librarian's way of thinking...if she wants them she can have them. I don't see her playing computer games as much now, happily...she just wants to discover new worlds from books. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.148.241.163 |
Doree Anne Hi, I'm really interested in reading Flu. Have you considered making it available for Kindle? Its tremendously easier for me to read on Kindle. I don't have to worry about a toddler tearing the pages out. Yesterday at 19:54 · Like · Wayne Simmons likes this. Wayne Simmons Ah, I notice you're from Texas, Doree. FLU's only currently available for the Kindle in the UK. Alas, your only way forward is paperback at present. Best place to order from if in the US is the Book Depository: Yesterday at 20:01 · Like Wayne Simmons ‎(http://www.bookdepository.co.uk/Flu-Wayne-Simmons/9781906727192). Thanks for the interest - hope you get a chance to check the book out | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.253.77 |
Weber - check the link above. It is available. Maybe Wayne isn't aware of this? | ||
| Matthew Fryer (Matthew_fryer) Username: Matthew_fryer Registered: 08-2009 Posted From: 90.195.182.194 |
My wife just got a kindle, and I'm stunned by the page-like, easy on the eye quality of the e-ink technology. It couldn't be less like reading off a screen. I was always sceptical, but I think I might be turning. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
I think I might be turning....  | ||
| Stevie Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 82.4.19.77 |
Craig, for Gene Roddenberry's beautiful smiling Utopia to happen would take an awful lot of sorting the wheat from the chaff - and how do you think that would happen? I love the show and that particular vision of the future but resources are limited and people are not (yet). Proto is right in saying Orwell's vision of the future is more likely but wrong in thinking that will not involve widespread extermination. The War without end he predicted, on the back of the First Great Depression (as opposed to this one) and its fortuitous solution, for the powers that be, World War II, will come to be seen as the most prescient element of that Great Novel. Keep just enough of the plebs alive to run a mockery of society and send the rest of them off as cannon fodder, or whatever other method of extermination big business & capitalist politicians can come up with. I have never bought into the theory that Orwell's War was faked by the media. Re-read the book from that stance and it becomes ever so much more terrifying. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
... the idea is to grind us down, keep us barely functioning, so that we have enough strength and time to survive and serve, but not enough to cause change. Proto, I once, I think somewhere on this board, said that money, was merely a fluctuating ratio between the number of slaves to the masters they serve. And to leap from this to Stevie's question - how do I think Gene Roddenberry's beautiful smiling Utopia could happen? - the way out of this slavery-cycle is to take a chance on: Automation. A fully-automated society could - could - go farther towards accomplishing lasting peace, than anything else. What we also need is the other role Roddenberry's (and others', of course) fantasies played their own active part in, in their day, which I'll call: Wonder. The space race, the desire to leap into the unknown vastness and both learn from it, and bring some kind of civilizing to it - of maybe touching other species and communicating peacefully if possible - expanding knowledge, increasing awe - it all sounds silly, but it's a way out of this mess. Because right now, each of us is like a Nascar racer in some dark nightmare of slavery: we're each plastered with the brands of our various masters, some involuntary, most alas voluntary. The Gas Company, So Cal Electric, IRS, the mortgage company... AT&T cable & cell & internet, gym dues, Netflix... we are valued according to the available space we have for more chains to be placed upon us. And a big part of the problem with the world economic disaster we're in, is that so many people now have all their limbs chained to dead debts, and so they're like dead men walking as it is: they're slaves to others, and they're only good for work, until death squishes them from memory. We need to be freed from these economic shackles, and then to find some mostly-common goal of wonder. The Roman Catholic Church worked okay for many centuries (witness those amazing space ships they built called "cathedrals"!), but it's day is done. Alas, or not, "global warming" isn't taking, and besides, the prophets there are turning it into all the whips and guilt of the old priests, with none of the joys and wonder of Heaven's beckonings. The space race, again, was a good start... maybe it can be revived again?... Meanwhile, buy a Roomba, and let it vacuum your home. It's a mini-robot - a mini automated servant, a slave that frees us even on a mundane level - we need more automated servants, more and more and more. Buying a Roomba goes farther towards world peace, than any number of marches on capitols. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 94.197.127.216 |
Actually, buying books off Amazon - let alone ebooks - can be difficult. If publishers don't agree to Amazon's pricing structure and provide big discounts to Amazon, then Amazon pulls the plug on them. Look what happened to Orion and Gollancz and their parent company the other year... So yeah, there is a big danger there. Also, what if Amazon go down the pan? What happens to the Kindle then? So yeah, there are major problems with the Kindle and ebook as it stands, and I've no doubt that big business will screw the consumer (or people, as we humans like to call folk). But ebooks can be nice to read too. It seems we're agreed that treebooks and ebooks are not evil (small e), but the machinations behind the ebook and ereaders could be. (That said, the machinations behind treebooks, net book agreement and all that, were not exactly swinging towards the benefits of humanity so much as pu lishers like Robert Maxwell.) | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.25.3.116 |
Does anyone know what the snow in Scandinavia is like? | ||
| Stephen Theaker (Stephen_theaker) Username: Stephen_theaker Registered: 12-2009 Posted From: 94.169.3.199 |
As far as I can see, the small number of books that are unavailable in this country - which in any case is down to the publishers and authors, and I can't begrudge them that control over their own work (and in some cases there are ways around it - for example switching your Kindle over to the US store) - is hugely outweighed by the number of books coming back into print. Just to use an example I'm aware of, a lot of the BBC Books eighth Doctor range is long out of print and new copies of some of them would set you back a hundred pounds - now they're being reissued for £3.99 each on Kindle. The lack of warehousing and print costs means it's much more cost effective to reissue books. For another example, Gollancz are planning to put 5,000 out-of-print books out as ebooks by the end of 2014. When John Brunner died, I seem to remember, not a single one of his books was in print. That's not going to happen to many authors in the future. | ||
| Stephen Theaker (Stephen_theaker) Username: Stephen_theaker Registered: 12-2009 Posted From: 94.169.3.199 |
Just noticed that although I'd picked him as a random example, there are six John Brunner books among the first wave of ebooks from Gollancz's SF Gateway! I've got some pre-ordering to do... In contrast, the only paper book of his that seems to be in print is Stand on Zanzibar. | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
Maybe I'm a bit strange but I actually *enjoy* searching the internet, charity shops and secondhand bookshops (when I can find them - they're quite scarce round here) for copies of old print books. It sounds like ebooks would take away that fun for me. | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 178.116.59.77 |
Caroline, charity shops and secondhand bookshops is where I buy most of my books nowadays. Interesting finds guaranteed. Cheap, too. | ||
| Jonathan (Jonathan) Username: Jonathan Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.143.178.131 |
"It sounds like ebooks would take away that fun for me." How so? I don't think e-books are immediately going to wipe out all the books that have gone before. There will still be second-hand booksellers and charity shops. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
It sounds like ebooks would take away that fun for me. How? Will all the old, second hand books simply disappear into some kind of space vortex, never to be retrieved? Ha! Jon beat me to it... I've never heard so much fatalistic nonsense in my life as some of the stuff on this thread. It's breathtaking. | ||
| Stephen Theaker (Stephen_theaker) Username: Stephen_theaker Registered: 12-2009 Posted From: 94.169.3.199 |
Secondhand bookshops are good fun, but does that really mean it's good for books to be unavailable for people to buy new? When we buy secondhand books the authors don't get any royalties. I've got quite a few of Ramsey's books, but the first one that'll actually send any money his way will be the Kindle copy of The Face That Must Die I bought this week. | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
>>"It sounds like ebooks would take away that fun for me." How? Will all the old, second hand books simply disappear into some kind of space vortex, never to be retrieved?<< Well, they seem to have around here - there are very few left. You should know, Zed, you live around this way too! >>Secondhand bookshops are good fun, but does that really mean it's good for books to be unavailable for people to buy new? When we buy secondhand books the authors don't get any royalties.<< Good point, Stephen, which I agree with. But I was talking about enjoying my search for *old* books in response to your posts about re-releasing books on the kindle. Yes, I can see that everything we've been discussing here is inevitable, but that doesn't mean I feel comfortable with it. It's as inevitable as the changes from vinyl, to cassette, to CD, to music downloads - and I'm the kind of person who still has a vinyl collection! | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.234.200 |
"There will still be second-hand booksellers and charity shops." Exactly. Buying a paper book will be like buying an antique. And I don't want to end up one of those Sunday people, thanks, gingerly taking a copy of BRAVO TWO ZERO from its protective wrapping and asking if it's worth anything. | ||
| Jonathan (Jonathan) Username: Jonathan Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.143.178.131 |
"Well, they seem to have around here - there are very few left. You should know, Zed, you live around this way too! " And how is it more likely that e-books are to blame for that than the recession. Proto - buying a paper book in secondhand bookshop is already a bit like buying an antique. That's part of the charm. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 147.252.230.148 |
"Proto - buying a paper book in secondhand bookshop is already a bit like buying an antique. That's part of the charm." I'm not a writer, but I suspect that one might reply that it's charming if you're J.R. Hartley, but if you're trying to make a career. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 147.252.230.148 |
That should end: "but NOT if you're trying to make a career." or "but if you're trying to make a career..." | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
>>"Well, they seem to have around here - there are very few left. You should know, Zed, you live around this way too! " And how is it more likely that e-books are to blame for that than the recession.<< I'm not blaming e-books alone for that, Jon. The decline in secondhand bookshops started around here a few years ago. Of course it's the economic climate and a whole host of other factors too, but e-books don't help my beloved secondhand bookshops I'm afraid. Proto - you've just described me here: "And I don't want to end up one of those Sunday people, thanks, gingerly taking a copy of BRAVO TWO ZERO from its protective wrapping and asking if it's worth anything." I used to go to monthly Sunday bookfairs regularly - haven't been for ages though. Shame. I wonder if they still hold them at Pudsey Civic Hall ...? | ||
| Jonathan (Jonathan) Username: Jonathan Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.143.178.131 |
"but e-books don't help my beloved secondhand bookshops I'm afraid" Fair enough, but I genuinely don't think that e-books have anything to do with the decline in second-hand bookshops. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.165.37.175 |
“Every book has a soul. The soul of the person who wrote it and of those who read it and lived and dreamed with it. Every time a book changes hands, every time someone runs his eyes down its pages, its spirit grows and strengthens.” —from ‘The Shadow Of The Wind’ by Carlos Ruiz Zafon  | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
Des, no matter how many times you post that it won't suddenly become a fact. Second-hand book buyers won't buy ebooks. They love second-hand books. The two markets aren't connected. I do believe, however, that ebooks are directly to blame for the failure of Sunderland AFC to replace Darren Bent in this transfer window. Bastard Kindle, destroying my football club. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.66.23.11 |
>>>Des, no matter how many times you post that it won't suddenly become a fact. Because it already is one... it can't suddenly become what it already is | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.165.37.175 |
I've never before posted the quote and the image together. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
btw: What happened to the flag's namesake, Tony? Is he vanished? Look: Apple is one of the richest companies on the planet. That's not because it creates product people want - it's because Apple creates product people want to pay for. If everyone were flocking to e-books like they're flocking to Apple, we'd instantly be scuttling our e-book conversation here, and all be sitting down and writing some mutherf*ckin' e-books. There's a malaise in reading in general; that, or there's glut. More product than buyers. Or both. The marketplace is reflecting this reality, in the closing of major booksellers: it's called, recession, where the tide of glut flows back out to the sea. E-books are dividing in half an already depressed book-purchasing market. The detritus of what's come before, is contributing to the overall depression. There were tons of novels published in the 1800's, into the 1900's too... only relatively few are in print now, the "classics" basically. If they all survived, no one could handle them all. These old classics we cling to too - yes, the piles of horror and sci-fi and fantasy writers and their works we all fawn nostalgically over - they're going to have shuffle off the stage at some point, if anyone wants to continue, in the future, making a career out of this kind of thing. First, buy a Roomba for world peace. Then, burn a collection by Clark Ashton Smith or Lord Dunsay, an Earl Stanley Gardner or Rex Stout novel, for a renewal in publishing. | ||
| Mbfg (Mbfg) Username: Mbfg Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 92.4.185.111 |
A formerly non-book reading colleague at work has started voraciously consuming novels and other books since he bought a Kindle. So, although I love the feel, weight, smell and sheer soul-filled physicality of paperbooks and will be a long lost left-behind in the quest for the Holy E-Grail, I wholeheartedly support the e-book concept if, as I said before, IT GETS PEOPLE TO READ BOOKS. Just as I cheer J K Rowling for getting kids to read novels (and bloody big ones at that)and also Andy McNab and Stephen Leather for getting my son to read novels (he's ventured further out into the word ocean now, via Nelson DeMille and a few of you folk to whom I have introducd him). Cheers Terry | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.165.37.175 |
And however long this thread continues, the fact won't change that ebooks will flourish and will change the map of fiction (for good or ill). I suspect ill, others suspect good. But it will be for good. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.66.23.11 |
The thing that galls me the most (as I've come to realise over the course of this thread) is that apparently laziness is such an epidemic now that people find holding a book open to be too much effort so they have to have their new labour saving device that means you don't need to do anything as taxing as turning a fucking page. These people won't be happy till everything in their lives is done for them. Automatic cutlery that feeds them so they don't have to lift any of that nasty heavy food off a plate. something to chew their food for them as well, coz you know how annoying a potato chip can be, all that effort in moving the jaw... ffs why can't someone automate this? These lazy fuckers are suffering. If someone can breathe on thir behalf as well, they'd appreciate that too. | ||
| Stephen Theaker (Stephen_theaker) Username: Stephen_theaker Registered: 12-2009 Posted From: 94.169.3.199 |
No rolleyes icon on here? I'll settle for | ||
| Jonathan (Jonathan) Username: Jonathan Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.143.178.131 |
And thus we enter the arena of the irrational | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
Weber, I think you need to get laid. Stevie will give you some tips. Apparently he's a magnet for the honeys. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.165.37.175 |
When life is too easy for us, we must beware or we may not be ready to meet the blows which sooner or later come to everyone, rich or poor. --Eleanor Roosevelt | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.66.23.11 |
Are people actually taking my last post completely seriously? where's that rolleyes emoticon? | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.66.23.11 |
Hang on, I know what to do when no one realises that there's a joke in what I just said... Wah wah wah i'm not playing any more. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.165.37.175 |
I don't know why people are becoming so polarised here. Does anyone disagree that, with ebooks, we are entering an unknown outcome era regarding what we all love : the fiction art. Do you disagree with Joel? Do you disagree with Zed or Simon Strantzas? | ||
| Stephen Theaker (Stephen_theaker) Username: Stephen_theaker Registered: 12-2009 Posted From: 94.169.3.199 |
Hard to tell it was a joke when on Tuesday at 7.45pm you said pretty much the same thing, Weber. Was everything you said in the thread a joke? That would explain why so little of it made sense. | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
Oh no! Please don't start all that "was it/was it not a joke" stuff again, guys! I love you all, and I don't want to see you arguing. We all have strong feelings here, I guess because we all have one thing in common - ie. we love literature. Basically, I suppose it doesn't matter if we're all getting our fix of literature from paper books or ebooks, so long as we keep literature alive. The scary parts of this thread are those that raise concerns about the future of literature - maybe that's what we should be discussing here? | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.79.201.184 |
"I wholeheartedly support the e-book concept if, as I said before, IT GETS PEOPLE TO READ BOOKS." One could argue that, no matter what the sales figures say, it doesn't. Because a kindle isn't a book. For centuries "book" has symbolised both the physical object and the collection of words. Now those two things are being untwined. One group wants to keep both strands, the other wants to throw one away for convenience. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.79.95.253 |
I don't have strong views either way, as long as we have the choice. But as Joel pointed out there are vast economic forces pushing us to throw the physicla aspect of "book" away. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.165.37.175 |
For centuries "book" has symbolised both the physical object and the collection of words. Now those two things are being untwined. One group wants to keep both strands, the other wants to throw one away for convenience. ============== how true. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.165.37.175 |
I think some of the e-book brigade are getting rattled, too, becuase I don't think they know what the outcome will be. It might mean more sales of their texts (as ebooks) - but at what cost? | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.148.241.163 |
The first part of my comment was a repeat of my genuine feelings - unless you're in some way physically debilitated, e-books only advantage lies in sheer laziness - as real books are not in the slightest bit difficult to hold or use. Anyone who wants to see that made easier isn't putting much effort in. The second part was wilful exaggeration for hopefully comic effect. Right, now I need to go and whine on another forum about humorless people | ||
| John Forth (John) Username: John Registered: 05-2008 Posted From: 82.24.1.217 |
>Does anyone disagree that, with ebooks, we are entering an unknown outcome era regarding what we all love : the fiction art.< I thought we'd all agreed to disagree about 250 posts ago. Since then it's all got a bit apocalyptic and hysterical. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.165.37.175 |
Agreed, John. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 2.24.39.214 |
Viewed as a recreational military reconstruction, this thread invites concupiscence. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.203.218 |
I don't think physical books are the end of convenience. I'd like to see genuine reading machines invented. Maybe things that project on your ceiling and scroll at the right pace. Perhaps they track your eye movements and know when you want to flip back and forth. I think that could be a genuine leap forward. How many leaps has reading made in millennia? 1. Invention. 2. Glasses. 3. Lenticular bookmarks There's room for improvement. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.148.241.163 |
Because when I read, I don’t really read; I pop a beautiful sentence into my mouth and suck it like a fruit drop, or I sip it like a liqueur until the thought dissolves in me like alcohol, infusing brain and heart and coursing on through the veins to the root of each blood vessel. Bohumil Hrabal | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.25.3.116 |
That quotation has a filthy subtext. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.165.37.175 |
The End?  | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.148.241.163 |
We've not made it to 500 posts yet... | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 89.19.72.139 |
A final vote. On balance, are ebooks a good thing? Vote yea or nay. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
Dunno. | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 220.138.161.78 |
Yes, as long as they can coexist peacefully with traditional paper books. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
What we should be voting on is, do paper books deserve to disappear? Do writers deserve to lose their profession? Do we want to see all the writers we admire consigned to oblivion? If the answer to any of the above is 'No' then just shut the fuck up about how great digital publishing is. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.79.214.177 |
1 Yes, 1 No, 1 Don't know. 1 - 1 + 0 = 0. I declare this thread a triumph. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.66.23.11 |
My vote - No | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
>>Are ebooks a good thing? Same answer as Huw - yes, if they can coexist peacefully with paper books >>Do paper books deserve to disappear? Definitely NO - I'd be bereft without them >>Do writers deserve to lose their profession? No, of course not - but I'm not totally convinced that ebooks will lead to this. Surely that additional outlet will be good for writers? Unless you, Joel, fear piracy, as has happened in the music business? >>Do we want to see all the writers we admire consigned to oblivion? Absolutely not - NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! | ||
| Edward Ludd (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.66.23.11 |
no | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
Weber - you're cheating! | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.66.23.11 |
That wasn't me. That was the spirit of Edward Ludd speaking through my mouth. Plenty of room for him there - (before some else makes this joke) - because I susally talk though my arse. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
You know, "consigned to oblivion" is a good pun for e-publishing.... A friend I know made a good point the other day, and it's only analogous to this conversation, but relevant; he was talking again about music downloads. I will quote him exactly: ."... if you told the fifteen year old me that instead of biking up to Tempo Records [a local indie record store from the 1980's] and spending 9 bucks on a single record that was delicate and about a foot square, that I could simply log on to a computer terminal, and within, say, an hour, I could have not only the album i wanted, but literally every single record that particular band ever released, and put it all on something the size of a cassette tape, well - that's Star Trek type shit...." THIS, is the world artists everywhere must come to terms with. It's not about books vs. e-books - it's about an avalanche of change called "digitization" that is coming down like a freight train upon us all, and upon the working/aspiring artists most of all. The problem is not books vs. ebooks: Kindles were inevitable. It's: How do you prevent the destruction of distribution of digital data? (wow, that's awkward) How does any entertainment medium that wants to wade into these waters prevent the cancer from spreading to it - i.e., the complete destruction of distribution - and decimating its earnings potential, and thereby (Joel) killing the futures for aspiring artists? The entire world is falling apart, really, under this technological world revolution; all the models we know are unravelling so quickly, I'm shocked no one else seems to be as shocked by it as I am. I feel like Nietzsche's madman again, dragged away in chains, wondering why no one sees the horrible truths so starkly before them... | ||
| Stevie Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
I'd just like to throw a question out there... what happens to all this digitised information (as opposed to works of art) when the lights go out? It'll be interesting to see how archaeologists of the far future (assuming there are any) will be able to access all this information. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
"... when the lights go out" - and therein lies the chains with which new masters, when they figure it out, can use to bind the teeming masses; it is the weapon by which new masters can seize control and form new tyrannies. Those who control power-sources, have real power. People could care less if a government topples; but if the lights go out - worse, if the refrigerator can't stay cold - they'll do whatever it takes to keep those overlords happy. And paper books will be deemed an act of defiance to the regime, an act of revolutionary intransigence, of un-Big-Brotherly love. Those who lug them around will be rooted out and destroyed. A new Dark Age, of light (i.e., the light coming from laptops, computers, iPods, etc.). | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.165.37.175 |
it's about an avalanche of change called "digitization" that is coming down like a freight train upon us all ====================================== Seriously, real (tree)books are the only backstop against that, perhaps. Vinyl vs CD vs digital download - is one thing. Comprehensible conflicts. Not truly significant. But treebook against ebook, is truly significant, a step-sea-change. The wedge against all thin ends. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.66.23.11 |
Craig, you just described the genesis of the world of Fahrenheit 451. More and more of that book seems to be coming true every year. TV's are getting so big that they will soon take up entire walls - the "interactive" stuff that Bradbury predicted is here, although not in exactly the same format. The dumbing down of the population is well under way... | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
Des, the good news is, I'm not convinced yet myself that for all of the e-book froth going on now, it's not (a) hyped; and even if it's not, the craze is not still (b) ephemeral. Worse than music? Photography. Hopelessly decimated, if you wanted to make a career there, in any of its many branches. It's inevitability is written into the nature of our technological advancements - to rail against tech alterations there, is to Canute-like rail against the incoming tide. But with books?... I'm not convinced. All the hype now feels like hype, like hyped-up hype. I'm far from sure myself this thing is lasting. If you're a writer, though, working or aspiring, you better deal with it. Figure some way to stay lithe and limber through all this. Meanwhile: Tell me mass digitization is not a thing of some terrible power now, with many unforseeable, and therefore frightening, consequences.... http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gD_TH7N_qZ87qCxbvmSShfQVdAzQ? docId=CNG.96f9ad25900131336388af4e36e3a985.1091 | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
Weber: Yes, and the most prophetic movie of late regarding all this, is the little acknowledged (and absolutely hilarious) IDIOCRACY. As comedy, it's laugh-out-loud... as prophecy, it's horrifying.... | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
And now look at this: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2032117/Hollywood-Leaks-hacks-celebrity- accounts.html The scariest part in it, is the leaking of "scripts" - because it's a sign of one more way to destroy working models of production and distribution. Thank god no one actually wants to read screenplays. Trust me, I know. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.25.3.116 |
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-14745683 | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
Who is Charles Cumming? And how did he land such a good publicity agent? | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.165.37.175 |
But treebook against ebook, is truly significant, a step-sea-change. The wedge against all thin ends. ============== the last ditch or haha. | ||
| Skip (Wolfnoma) Username: Wolfnoma Registered: 07-2010 Posted From: 70.160.12.142 |
I've read both e-books and "real" books. Gimme real books anyday! | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 178.116.59.77 |
Should be fun reading three or four e-books simultaneously. One might end up forgetting which book one is reading - a fun experience in itself, to be sure. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.165.37.175 |
There is was an item this morning at 5.55 a.m on the wireless - about electronic books that you can read (say, 0n a train, commuting to work) where you have its sound effects on your earphones timed exactly to your reading (instead of listening to something quite detached from the reading, like music). The announcer read aloud THE SPECKLED BAND (a Sherlock Holmes) with wind and screaming as it got those parts in the text. This would happen in silent reading, as well as reading aloud. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
Hubert - I'm currently reading three paper books and three ebooks. I never forget which one I'm reading. Then again, I'm not an idiot. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.25.3.116 |
You are. Just not in that way. | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 178.116.59.77 |
electronic books that you can read (say, 0n a train, commuting to work) where you have its sound effects on your earphones timed exactly to your reading Heaven help us all. It's already bad enough as it is with sharp, blistering rubbish sounds from youngsters' earphones, people talking through headsets or tapping keys, and mobiles ringing at regular intervals. Me, I'm just trying to read my morning paper. I suppose I'm the odd one out. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.66.23.11 |
You can read newspapers on your e-reader as well. The Daily Mail will come with cries of anguish and the wailing of lost souls asking "What would Princess Di do?" | ||
| Jonathan (Jonathan) Username: Jonathan Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.143.178.131 |
And what is more, kids these days eh? Grrrrrrr. Etc | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.66.23.11 |
The Sun would have a strange mumbling noise of chavs lips moving while they try to read - sun readers are incapable of reading without moving their lips and tracing their fingers across the page - except for page 3 which would be accompanied by a strange fap-fap-fapping noise. The Mirror would just have one long yawn while the News of the World's replacement paper would have the sound of phone calls being hacked. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.66.23.11 |
The daily Star would have the strange fap-fap-fapping throughout and screams of anguished sould shouting what would Jade Goody do on all their articles about immigration. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.66.23.11 |
*souls | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
A couple of years ago, I was sitting on the bus and reading a paperback when a teenage boy who was walking past leaned over and very deliberately (and silently) slapped the book out of my hands. It made me think of the historian Georges Canghuilem's observation: "To be normal is to be normative." The normalisation of digital media demands that non-digital media cease to be socially accepted. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
Did you chin him? I would've kicked his arse the length of the bus. | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 178.116.59.77 |
I have the impression that nowadays everything associated with high brow and expensive is suspect in England. A few weeks ago we spent an afternoon in Canterbury and environs, and you wouldn't believe the amount of loud-mouthed scorn my friend's car (a BMW Z4) attracted. Or was it the Belgian number plates? | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.66.23.11 |
You posh twat ;-) | ||
| Stevie Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
I can imagine how upset you must have been by that incident, Joel. I believe it is up to us old traditionalists (as we are ever more youthfully becoming) to be proud of our anachronistic tastes. You should read the Bryant & May books. They are an ode to the beauty of being old and different. | ||
| Jonathan (Jonathan) Username: Jonathan Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.143.178.131 |
I did very much enjoy Full Dark House. Cracking read. | ||
| Stevie Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
I love that book, Jon. But they're all of an equally high calibre of entertainment value. I also love the way each of the books have the same beautifully presented look and feel. Reading them off a screen just wouldn't work for me. | ||
| Jonathan (Jonathan) Username: Jonathan Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.143.178.131 |
As an aside, I know that Mr Fowler is in possession of an e-reader and has used it. Yeah, they're nicely produced novels Steve. | ||
| Stevie Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
I think authors more or less have to nowadays, Jon, and can't blame them. But, except as a tool for reading articles/reviews and stuff like that, or maybe writing on (can this be done?), I, personally, am not interested in them for reading literature. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.218.102 |
"To be normal is to be normative." That's how it feels seeing everyone on the train reading the same book. Of the millions of books published over the last 100 years you're all coincidentally reading Stieg Larsson? Or are you just doing what you're told? I've seen adults with the imagination of a VCR reading the entire Harry Potter series but they blanch when I suggest some other fantasy novels they might want to check out. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.218.102 |
"...a teenage boy who was walking past leaned over and very deliberately (and silently) slapped the book out of my hands." That's the beginning of a short story. Clearly he felt your behaviour was unusual which merited you being put in your place. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.66.23.11 |
What's wrong with Steigg larsson? | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.165.37.175 |
Well done, Weber, the 500th post is yours. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.218.102 |
"What's wrong with Steigg larsson?" Ubiquity. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.218.102 |
The final vote is 2 (yea), 2(nay), 1 ("Dunno"). | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.66.23.11 |
This is now offiacially the longest thread on the board... | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.165.37.175 |
No, there are 670 for the first 'what are you reading thread'... This is the second longest, I think ... so far. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.165.37.175 |
How sad is that - me knowing that! | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.150.142.134 |
We need to keep this going then. Fucking shitty e-books. Burn them all | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 2.24.38.222 |
"As an aside, I know that Mr Fowler is in possession of an e-reader and has used it." But not for reading. | ||
| Mbfg (Mbfg) Username: Mbfg Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 92.4.189.55 |
I'm sorry but I can't see what is wrong with e-books and readers. No, I haven't got one and struggle to read on a screen. I prefer paper, I prefer the feel and smell of a book, but good writing should be read and quite frankly I don't care how. Scribble it on the side of a horse or on the pavement for all I care. Just get it out there!!! Okay, e-publishing does open the door to the X-factor audition-deluded who think they can write. Lulu,for example, and which I have used to publish, is full of good stuff, but also full of deluded nonsense, but there then again there is a also lot of paper-based crap out there, just pop along to the book shelves of your local supermarket or pick up a red-top from your nearest newsagents. Thre are negative side effects to anything. So, in the words of the late great Charles Haddon Spurgeon (no, not Theodore) "Suck in the honey (even e-honey) and spit out the bees". Cheers Terry | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.253.77 |
Chris Fowler loves his e-reader. He used to have a Sony Reader, but I believe he's now ditched it in favour of a Kindle. I can't believe this "debate" is still going on. It's certainly amusing me, though. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.165.37.175 |
Has anyone's view about this topic actually been changed by this thread? Is it likely to be changed? Could it ever have been changed? i.e. not entrenched further into what you thought before, but actually changed in some way? | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.208.69 |
Yes. I didn't know how serious the problem could be until Joel painted a grim picture with dark streaks of liquid aarrrgh. Far from being a harmless novelty, ebooks may be a potent threat to the tools of human thought itself. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.208.69 |
I'm watching POLICE ACADEMY at the moment, if that changes how seriously you take my opinions. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.253.77 |
No - I still enjoy reading ebooks buy prefer paper books for volumes I want to keep. I have realised, however, how much some of you people really do like a good wallow in misery. | ||
| Steve Bacon (Stevebacon) Username: Stevebacon Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 90.204.111.205 |
I'm just coming to this thread. To be honest, I can't be bothered to read it all. Can someone please summarise everything in one concise paragraph?  | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 2.24.18.160 |
Various people saying e-books are a useful addition to the range of options available for reading books. Others saying that's fine, but the promotion of e-books by the media corporations means the fairly imminent extinction of print publishing in the interests of corporate profit. Zed saying that's absurdly pessimistic. We'll see. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
Can someone please summarise everything in one concise paragraph? To some, Steig Larsson is not that bad. But then, he's not that great, to others. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.165.37.175 |
some of you people really do like a good wallow in misery ========== Indeed. That's arguably what we're all about in the Horror genre. Simon S said in his one post that we all had entrenched views much earlier. If he meant all sides of the argument are entrencehd in what they believed before this thread started, then I laregly agree. But Protoroid has just said he's changed. Anyone else? | ||
| Jonathan (Jonathan) Username: Jonathan Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 2.25.254.120 |
"Others saying that's fine, but the promotion of e-books by the media corporations means the fairly imminent extinction of print publishing in the interests of corporate profit." If anything it's the independent and smaller publishers who are at the forefront of e-book publishing. Most of the really big houses haven't got round to it yet. For example Harry Potter isn't yet on e-book and most of Stephen King's novels are available in paper only. I think this is more a case of publishing avoiding the mistakes of the music industry and ensuring its survival via diversification of distribution and delivery. I can honestly say that we're not doing it out of some view of rolling in lots of money or because we dislike paper books. We still publish those and champion both means of reading equally. I think comments such as Proto's "ebooks may be a potent threat to the tools of human thought itself" demonstrate some of the hysteria that has coloured much of this thread, using anecdote and fear to make arguments rather than looking at the facts of publishing as it currently stands. Anyway, them's my thoughts. There are people I greatly respect in this debate and I understand any great change produces fear and worry, but I do think this debate has often spiralled into ever-decreasing circles of unreasoning panic. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.25.3.116 |
From my own tiny and insignificant point of view at Gray Friar Press, I'd like to say this: I wouldn't feel like a publisher if I did just ebooks. It'd feel like cheating somehow (even though I work hard on the MS). There's something about coordinating cover, content and distribution that makes it feel like publishing. Sending a file isn't the same. Maybe this has nothing to do with this debate. I just thought I'd mention it. It goes back to that sense of something tangible you get when you're dealing with paper books. Maybe I'm just an idiot and could be making money from doing half as much work. (That's never been my motivation here. If I wanted to make money, I'd do something with money in it!) | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.165.37.175 |
My son, who is staying here for the weekend, is sitting near me with King on his Kindle. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.165.37.175 |
Apparently, I'm told, Amazon once took a book off everyone's Kindle, because they found they hadn't got the rights to it. How easy is it for Amazon unilaterally to remove things from everyone's Kindle in the future? | ||
| Jonathan (Jonathan) Username: Jonathan Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 2.25.254.120 |
Yes, recent and modern King is available. But most of the big publishers have huge backlists that they haven't manages to get on the Kindle yet. "How easy is it for Amazon unilaterally to remove things from everyone's Kindle in the future?" But why would they want to do this? | ||
| Jonathan (Jonathan) Username: Jonathan Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 2.25.254.120 |
Gary - I know what you're saying. I'm happy to say that we publish in both formats. As for publishing an e-book, it's not actually as simple as just clicking Send. There's quite a few hoops you have to jump through before you get your book distributed and published. On another tac entirely, do people feel the same way about DVDs and Video as film is now mostly moving to download. Do people also feel that will have a devestating effect? | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 2.24.10.163 |
"rather than looking at the facts of publishing as it currently stands" Jonathan, I appreciate the integrity of your own position and your awareness of the current reality, but surely the whole point is that the publishing industry is not standing. It's changing very fast. At one time, CDs were an alternative to vinyl and cassette formats – then they were suddenly the only game in town. Now people are saying their days are numbered. As a result of the growing dominance of digital media in music sales, musicians are increasingly unable to make money from their records. It's neither hysterical nor speculative to say that publishing will go down the same road. As for the impact of digital media on people's attention span and grip on reality, that remains to be seen but the prospects are not good. The culture we know is an analogue culture. The literature we have is an analogue literature. The language we have is an analogue language. The human relationships we have are analogue relationships. In a situation where culture is changing very fast, driven by commercial rather than human factors, it is hardly hysterical to assume that the change will continue and the effects will be far-reaching. The impact of digital media is the main thing the company I work for is talking about (in our meetings and professional communications) – both in terms of our business and in terms of how it affects what we report on – so why should I forget all of that when I come here? All of this was nicely summed up in a record that apparently was a massive hit across Europe this summer: La gente este muy loca. What the fuck? | ||
| Jonathan (Jonathan) Username: Jonathan Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 2.25.254.120 |
"As a result of the growing dominance of digital media in music sales, musicians are increasingly unable to make money from their records. It's neither hysterical nor speculative to say that publishing will go down the same road." Music was badly burned by the digital revolution because it basically refused to believe it was happening, and they paid the price. But music is still being produced, artists get paid (not all of them handsomely admittedly, but when has that ever been the case)and the prevalence of digital media and recording methods has enabled rather than disabled musicians from getting their work out there. 15 years ago, say, if a solo guitarist wanted to record an album, he'd have to book studio time, sound engineers etc to the tune of several thousand pounds. Now whole albums can be produced and recorded through a PC with other gadgets attached, producing something that is just as good in sound quality and depth. This has liberated a lot of musicians. Kids still want to be in bands. We are not seing the death of music. I don't share your pessimism over the digital revolution. This still enables humans to create works for humans to be appreciated by humans, I don't think it's as cold and, for want of a better word, as robotic as you're making out. But yes, things are changing very fast. Sometimes it is scary but it is also creating a lot of opportunities and new ways of communicating and sharing ideas. And as for publishing, there are still new ventures being set up. Jo Fletcher is about to launch her new imprint with Quercus and Penguin are establishing a new genre imprint catering to a Worldwide English market. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.150.142.134 |
So lots more choice for the consumer? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6T2zUEiVQU4 | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.165.37.175 |
"How easy is it for Amazon unilaterally to remove things from everyone's Kindle in the future?" But why would they want to do this? ============== A good question. BBCiplayer remove films you've dowloaded after a short period. Will there be tantamount to temporary ebooks in the future? And other outcomes I can't possibly predict relating to the possibility of people looking inside my computer remotely etc. They don't look inside my treebooks, I'm sure. Or perhaps they do.... Just thinking aloud. Generally, I'm with Joel above. It makes common sense to me. Which side in this argument is kicking against the pricks? Having said that, I have changed throughout the course of this thread. In various directions. I can sympathise more with the ebook standpoint than when I started it. But I'm going back again at the moment to my original position when I planted that flag. Who knows where I will finally end up! | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.25.3.116 |
>>>As for publishing an e-book, it's not actually as simple as just clicking Send. There's quite a few hoops you have to jump through before you get your book distributed and published. Yes, Jon, but compared to taking delivery of boxes of books, packaging each one up, taking the lot to the Post Office, waiting in the queue, snarling at pension-collecting fogies, and beating up welfare-gathering chavs, it's a piece of piss! | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.165.37.175 |
Indeed, Gary, books are a labour of love. I recognise all that with 10 editions of Nemonymous (although Nemo 6 was a piece of piss) and the HA of HA. I agree with your 'cheating' point earlier. | ||
| Jonathan (Jonathan) Username: Jonathan Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 2.25.254.120 |
"Yes, Jon, but compared to taking delivery of boxes of books, packaging each one up, taking the lot to the Post Office, waiting in the queue, snarling at pension-collecting fogies, and beating up welfare-gathering chavs, it's a piece of piss!" Having had to deal with Amazon, Sony and iTunes, I'm not sure that's entirely true. Des- No I doubt think there will be temporary e-books. | ||
| Jonathan (Jonathan) Username: Jonathan Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 2.25.254.120 |
Sorry, a lot of typos there. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.25.3.116 |
OK, I bow to your experience here, but I bet you still don't have to do anything as appalling as stand behind the eBay trader who needs receipts for everything! | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.253.77 |
Indeed. That's arguably what we're all about in the Horror genre. Not me. I try (and perhaps fail) to do a lot more than that. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.165.37.175 |
OK, I was making a facetious point, in hindsight (to your criticism that some of us were wallowing in misery on this thread), that we here in the Horror genre are all involved in the industry of misery as an art form. But of course that does not exclude other factors in any Horror genre author's work. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.165.37.175 |
 © Tony Lovell | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.206.133 |
Ooh, he's coming to get you if you buy a Kindle... | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.253.77 |
| ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.165.37.175 |
Ooh, he's coming to get you if you buy a Kindle... ==================== that's the 'she' version. Note the 'hair'. | ||
| John Forth (John) Username: John Registered: 05-2008 Posted From: 82.24.1.217 |
 | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.253.77 |
Now that's just class. | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 178.116.59.77 |
The Face that Must Leap (through the screen)? | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.165.37.175 |
Thanks for the real facebook, John. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.165.37.175 |
John, I hope you don't mind me including your overall image on my website: http://horroranthology.wordpress.com/you-will-never-see-the-ha-of-ha-like-this/ | ||
| John Forth (John) Username: John Registered: 05-2008 Posted From: 82.24.1.217 |
Ha ha! (ahem) Not at all. If I'd known you were going to do something like that, though, I would have made more of an effort! | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.165.37.175 |
It looks excellent to me. Thanks. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.158.236.243 |
IT KNOWS WHERE YOU LIVE by GARY McMAHON | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.158.236.243 |
I put that link there (interesting link in itself) - because I thought this would be a good thread to advertise books (like the HA of HA) that categorically state or strongly imply that it will never be an ebook. (I've just pre-ordered this one from Gary F). | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
Oh, Des, you're such a card. And, thanks! Yes, this is a paper book, never to be an ebook. A love letter to tree books, if you will. Each one will have a diffeent spoky hand-written slogan on the title page...you can't do that with ebooks. | ||
| Greg James (Greg_james) Username: Greg_james Registered: 04-2011 Posted From: 62.244.179.50 |
Well, there is Kindlegraph now for those who want their ebooks personalised. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.158.236.243 |
OH DEAR !!! http://kindlegraph.com/ | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
Nooooooooo!! Those of us who like our books signed, autograph collectors and other strange people like that are going to be livid. You should have seen the uproar in the autograph collecting community when Dean Koontz did the first Waterstones signing from his home in the US with that remote autopen thing (can't remember what it's called). If it isn't written in ink (or pencil) directly onto the paper, it isn't an autograph!! | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 178.116.56.167 |
F***. That does it. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 2.24.37.231 |
(Finally cracked.) | ||
| Tom_alaerts (Tom_alaerts) Username: Tom_alaerts Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.176.166.159 |
It is a good opportunity to reflect how vacuous autographs are. | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 178.116.56.167 |
Digital autographs certainly are. I thought signatures on little stickers (to be inserted in the book later) were silly, but this is plain ridiculous. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
(... hmm. I'm trying to work out a joke, involving digitizing the Necronomicon, it being made from flayed and screaming humans, and it being marketed as the "Skindle," but I don't quite have it down yet... watch this space....) | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.158.236.243 |
It is a good opportunity to reflect how vacuous autographs are. ================ Caroline will have your guts for garters for that! I think the talismanic provenance lent by handwritten authorial marks in a book is a complex issue - as is the standard extra-nemonymal by-lining of their name or pseudonym under the title. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.26.216.33 |
Which goes back to my point about the inherently tangible qualities of (tree)books, their 'concrete' talismanic aspects. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.158.236.243 |
Indeed it does, Gary. I pinched the 'talisman' word from you. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.26.216.33 |
Thief! Stop that man! Tie him up with string! Poke carrots at him! | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
"It is a good opportunity to reflect how vacuous autographs are. ================ Caroline will have your guts for garters for that!" I already have! Poor Tom didn't realise he was dealing with a card-carrying member of the Doctor Who Autograph Collectors' Club. * chuckles insanely * (BTW as an aside, and totally off topic - sorry, Des - did you get my email Mr Fry?) | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.159.146.177 |
E-book Sales Jump in June, Print Plunges | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.159.146.177 |
"No more ebooks..." The Black Abyss: http://www.blackabyss.co.uk/2011/09/words-from-the-abyss/ | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.253.77 |
Books are wonderfully tactile, gloriously smelly, beautiful looking things Same old silly argument. Who the hell smells a book when they read it? I've noticed a lot of expensive small press hardbacks smell of piss anyway (or is that just my copies). Sensible comment below, though: I take your point, and I still love my physical books, but I find I forget when I’m reading I barely notice any more if it’s in ink or e-ink (or whatever Amazon call it!) That is, I don’t notice as long as the book is *good*. The tale’s the thing. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.159.146.177 |
I like the dragonfly image. Physical books can affect the tale itself, by the way, I'm sure. There is more psychology or complexity to a human reading than filtering electronic words. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.159.146.177 |
Sorry, that's Daddy Long legs - but the image is still great. | ||
| Colin Leslie (Blackabyss) Username: Blackabyss Registered: 02-2010 Posted From: 86.165.152.107 |
Each to his own and all that but for me books are the sum of their parts. The cover, the weight, the feel, yes even the smell. Clearly the content is key but stripped bare it loses some emotional bind. It probably just me but having read a number of books as ebooks and paper books at the same time I find the response to paper books more intense and more enjoyable. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.79.2.131 |
"Who the hell smells a book when they read it?" Me! I? Clearly I don't read enough of them. Are we going to have to have this whole debate again when food is finally digitized? | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.150.18.247 |
I love the smell of old books as well. I frequently sniff a book as I pick it up, riffle the pages to blow the smell straight into my face. It's a touch of heaven in this miserble shitheap of a world that we live in. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.150.18.247 |
I noticed on the link Des posted at 6:40 that there are several comments from writers wo are now DIY publishing electronically. If they're not good enough to get a book deal with a real publisher, why should we be making things easier for them to sell their books? The 95% of everything in fiction is shit rule is about to increase exponentially as more people start peddling their infantile scribbles in e-book form with no editing, no quality control. That's got to be bad for books in general. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
If they're not good enough to get a book deal with a real publisher, why should we be making things easier for them to sell their books? This is not a logical argument. You are assuming "good enough" is the sole, even the most important, even important at all, consideration. But your next paragraph is valid. And your last. | ||
| Jonathan (Jonathan) Username: Jonathan Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.143.178.131 |
"There is more psychology or complexity to a human reading than filtering electronic words." I use the Kindle to read through the submissions file and don't find this at all. Good literature effects me just as much if I'm reading a printed MS or off the Kindle screen. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.159.146.177 |
We are all different, as the Black Abyss article conceded. But my contention is that if you search your heart in the long-term you may later differ with your current view. Me, too. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.159.146.177 |
I also read submissions for the HA of HA on a screen. But it was only when I read them together in a real book did they fully come together separately and as a gestalt, e.g. with the paper and the book's ka. (See my post-publication Editor's Commentary on the book on the HA of HA site). (Also see my reviews of, say, many Ex Occidente Press books, where something spiritual is possible when reading the text on stiff paper and between double-clad dust-wrappers etc. - I actually try to tie the stories into this their natural habitat. This is to a lesser or greater extent dependent on the nature of the text. This is very personal from reader to reader. But I hope this shows the *possible* power of the habitat of a text. Sometimes absorbed sub-consciously, sometimes not. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
I frequently sniff a book as I pick it up, riffle the pages to blow the smell straight into my face That's just weird. And not in a good way. Do you also lick the television screen when you watch Dr Who? I bet you do... | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.66.23.11 |
Only when Amy bends over... | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.159.146.177 |
I do the same, Zed. Have always done so since a child. And I know many book-readers who do so. You may be in the minority here? I am genuinely surprised you think it so odd. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
Weirdos. Sniffing books? It's very odd. Especially considering that stale paper smells unpleasant. Do you rub the pages on your body, too? On seconds thoughts, don't answer that. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
A small caveat: I have barely any sense of smell. Maybe it's just something that readers with a normal sense of smell do. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.159.146.177 |
There are people on this thread who say they smell books as part of the pleasure of reading them. Is there anyone else here who doesn't do this - like Zed? | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
How close do you hold a book to your face when you read? You'll go blind, you know... I find this very troubling. Lots of people sitting there constantly sniffing as they read books that are pressed right up against their noses. Do you read this way in public libraries, too, or just at home? What does your wife make of this behaviour? | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
Does this sniffing business extend to magazines and newspapers? Pamphlets? Is it just expensive editions or mass market paperbacks, too? I'm genuinely intrigued. | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 61.216.48.223 |
I like the smell of old books, too, and the feel of the pages... everything about a well-made book, really. Even the lowly secondhand mass market paperback has its distinct charms. It's something ebooks will never, by their inherent nature, be able to offer. But they have their own advantages, of course. This is why I like being able to have both. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.66.23.11 |
Sniffing books is reserved for old books. they smell best. Magazines (especially glossies) don't smell very good. But an old book... beautiful. BTW we don't sniff while we're reading (as a general rule). it's a prelude to opening the book, or a sensory epilogue as we put it down for the night. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.159.146.177 |
This is why I like being able to have both. ================= But based on some evidence on this thread, by buying ebooks you are doing away with the choice - eventually... | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
Des - there's no 'evidence' on this thread, only conjecture. From all sides. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.159.146.177 |
Sorry- But based on some conjecture on this thread, by buying ebooks you are doing away with the choice - eventually... Conjecture often only becomes proved after it's too late to do anything about it. | ||
| Jonathan (Jonathan) Username: Jonathan Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.143.178.131 |
But e-books aren't doing away with choice. In fact, they are potentially offering the reader much more choice. Gollancz have already announced they are making a massive backlist of classic SF available as e-books. Rights are being acquired of other works that have been long out of print and very hard to get hold of. For the estates of authors who haven't been making any money on their past works this is hugely good news. It will also introduce people to books they may never have before seen. E-books open up possibilities and choice, not close them down. And like Gary said, what evidence is there that the restriction of choice is what is happening? | ||
| Jonathan (Jonathan) Username: Jonathan Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.143.178.131 |
"Conjecture often only becomes proved after it's too late to do anything about it." Also, ominous decrees like this do nothing to further the debate. It just adds a strangely doomful note that is counter-productive. This, of course, is only my opinion and, having met most of you in the flesh, i consider you fine upstanding people. What I mean, I suppose is that I'm not trying to get into a fight about this. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.159.146.177 |
All what Joel and others have said on this thread. plus: http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2011/aug/22/are-books-dead-ewan-morrison A Horror genre reviewer from yesterday clearly and publicly declining Ebooks for review. Yes, conjecture. As Gary Mc also said, it is conjecture on both sides. | ||
| Jonathan (Jonathan) Username: Jonathan Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.143.178.131 |
Which I responded to with this: http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2011/aug/30/death-books-exaggerated?CMP=twt_gu Which actually uses data. But I was greeted by a resounding silence. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
Don't you come along here polluting our thread with your facts, Oliver! We won't 'ave it, I tell thee. I read that when it first came out and found it fascinating reading. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.159.146.177 |
Yes, I read it earlier. Is it still not conjecture equal to Morrison's? Politicians often bring forth past and projected figures that are later proved or disproved (usually disproved!) about the economy etc. I think we can all agree that this is a vast leap (not an evolution of the book as it has been in the past) and we are still in mid-leap... Some think it will eventually tantamount to finish the paper book, others not. Personally, on aseparate note, I maintain that only real paper books can give the full emotional context of reading. And *can* change a tale, even if the text dosn't change. Others disagree. | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 178.118.72.208 |
Sniffing books is reserved for old books. they smell best. Would you believe I can smell whether the previous owner of a second-hand book was a smoker or not? Arkham House books have a particular, almost pungent smell all their own. I'm reminded of antient papyrus, rafters in an old clapboard house (in Providence), a touch of desicated and slightly crumbling bones . . . Or is it the fabled Holliston Black Novelex? | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 61.216.48.223 |
Don't forget the White Winnebago Eggshell paper, Hubert! | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.159.146.177 |
Books' smells (new and old books) can remind one of events or periods of one's past, sometimes tantalisingly vague sometimes immediately clear. You give a book your own personal stamp, too, (pencilled marginalia, sneezes, nature's stains from summer reading in the garden etc). Reading a book has a vintage or a potential vintage. There is no way to describe some of the emotions attached to handling and reading a book. All of which can leaqnd themselves to the text in an enhancing or meaningful way. Some may soon call books old-fashioned. Some already do. But nothing can become old-fashioned unless it was once a fashion that could grow old-fashioned. | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 178.118.72.208 |
There is no way to describe some of the emotions attached to handling and reading a book. Ray Bradbury once made a similar comment, I forget where. Dandelion Wine? In my late teens I used to cycle to a remote field when some quiet reading was in order. The books I took with me then still carry the smell of mown grass, dry hay, sage and berries. I kid you not. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.66.23.11 |
and your kindle smells of cheap plastic. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
I don't read books for the smell. I read book for the text. Mu Kindle smells of nothing. My books smell of, erm, paper - apart from the smelly ones that stink of musty old paper. Right, I'm off to lick my Kindle. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.66.23.11 |
Last time I went abroad was when I walked up Kilimajaro. We spent a week with no electric. How useful would a kindle have been for reading there? Not very useful after the first couple of days I'm guessing... | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.66.23.11 |
whoops, forgot the last part of that post. People keep quoting the same "It doesn't weigh as much in your luggage" at me. The two quite long paperbacks I took with me didn't weigh much. And they worked even at the last camp near the top of the mountain. Plus of course, if my luggage get jolted or thrown about by baggage handlers I'm not worried that a cheap paperback is going to be ruined. With an expensive and fragile piece of cheaplooking plastic I'd be worried it was going to get broken. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.159.146.177 |
It's easy for some to make fun of the ingredients of others' love for a book and how it enhances a text beyond any ability of a machine - while it's more difficult to explain those Bradbury-esque emotions that help make that same enhancement a genuine one... | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.66.23.11 |
I wouldn't lick your kindle if I was you Zed, if you get it wet you could wreck it and then you'll have to fork out a 3 figure sum for a relpacement... | ||
| Colin Leslie (Blackabyss) Username: Blackabyss Registered: 02-2010 Posted From: 86.165.152.107 |
So if I was to offer all the ebook lovers a mint first edition (lovely smell) of the Landlord's "The Face That Must Die" or a PDF (same text) which would you prefer. The latter would surely only be preferable in the absence of the former. Anyway at least ebooks would make for an easier life for these guys:- http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news1002/bookburning.html Wait till they read some Gary McMahon :-) | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
Last time I went abroad was when I walked up Kilimajaro. We spent a week with no electric. How useful would a kindle have been for reading there? It'd be fine. The battery charge lasts a month. Colin - that isn't relevant. I've already stated above that I prefer paper books to ebooks. I wouldn't want a PDF anyway; I'd want a MOBI file. | ||
| Colin Leslie (Blackabyss) Username: Blackabyss Registered: 02-2010 Posted From: 86.165.152.107 |
But isn't that the whole point Gary? Paper books are for some reason (and I'm sure it differs for each of us) more satisfying than ebooks. So given the choice we all prefer paper books my problem is we are being given the choice less often. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.159.146.177 |
This goes in a circle. If you prefer paper books, why encourage their demise by supportuing ebooks in any way whatsoever? Not proven, I agree, that doing that encourages such a demise, but even the *risk* of so doing should put anyone off. And conjectures or evidence I've been reading point at least to such a risk. Devil's Advocate statement above. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.159.146.177 |
My post crossed with Colin's but they say, I feel, much the same thing: his better! | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.150.18.247 |
"It'd be fine. The battery charge lasts a month. " Batteries fail in very low temperatures. On the night section of the walk, we all had to carry three sets of batteries for our torches so we'd always have one set that was warm enough to work. The temperature at the top of Kili was enough to kill my torch batteries 4 or five times on the way up. Once they'd warmed again they could go in where they'd last another hour or so till the cold slowed the chemical reaction again. AT those temperatures, a fully charged kindle probably still won't work. And give it a few years and the charge will only last 3 weeks, then two weeks till eventually you need to keep the thing plugged in if you want to read it. Rechargeable batteries have in built life expectancies... Can you change the battery on a kindle or do you need to buy a whole new machine? | ||
| John Forth (John) Username: John Registered: 05-2008 Posted From: 82.24.1.217 |
Has anyone said anything new on this thread for the last 300 posts? I confess, I like the occasional sniff of books; and comics; and the inside of old action figure boxes. Christ, I've even been known to sniff DVD manuals from time to time. I suspect it's the glue. I also like the way my Kindle smells. I guess I'm just an equal-opportunity sniffer. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.159.146.177 |
Has anyone said anything new on this thread for the last 300 posts? =========== Yes, Colin Leslie with his Reviewer's Black Abyss article. That's why I re-activated this thread to report something new to interest participants here. I would have done the same if I had been less empathic with the new comments. Most comments since then were commenting on behalf of what I call the pro-ebook (with reservations) lobby and those in the opposite lobby responding to them. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.159.146.177 |
Sorry, I think I was getting my pros and cons muddled up there. Perhaps we should bring this long thread to a graceful close...? | ||
| John Forth (John) Username: John Registered: 05-2008 Posted From: 82.24.1.217 |
Caveat: last post not entirely serious (except the part about the sniffing), and certainly not expecting a serious answer. That said, Des, there wasn't exactly anything in the article you'd linked to that hadn't already been put forward in the umpteen previous posts. | ||
| John Forth (John) Username: John Registered: 05-2008 Posted From: 82.24.1.217 |
Ach, the pawns and crows are all over the place already... | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 178.118.72.208 |
if you get it wet you could wreck it and then you'll have to fork out a 3 figure sum for a replacement... Say! a thought. How about waterproof yellow kindles to take to the beach (if not onto the surfboard or straight into the water) and shockproof specimens for those readers who want to go jogging? | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.159.146.177 |
That said, Des, there wasn't exactly anything in the article you'd linked to that hadn't already been put forward in the umpteen previous posts. ======= Except a Horror genre reviewer going out of his way publicly to make a point of declining ebook reviews,having once encouraged them. I thought that was worthy of being weighed in the balance as a new significant gesture. | ||
| John Forth (John) Username: John Registered: 05-2008 Posted From: 82.24.1.217 |
if not onto the surfboard or straight into the water Get a big enough one and you'll be able to surf on the Kindle itself. | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
I'm late to these new posts here today as I've been out all day and I'm knackered, but I have to confess (and I did so a long way above too) to being a book sniffer too. Zed - I reckon you're the odd one here! (joke) That was a great blog post, Colin - you summed up my feelings about real books perfectly. Me? I'll not support the ebook lobby by switching to them - I love my real books too much. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.253.77 |
I haven't switched to ebooks, either - I use both. Weber - to be fair, I wouldn't take a Kindle up Kilmanjaro. I'd take a paper book. Has anyone said anything new on this thread for the last 300 posts? Nope. Me included. Boring, innit? I did like Hubert's quip about Kindles for surfers and joggers, though... | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.159.146.177 |
Someone's suggested elsewhere a standard practice of a hard copy book as a (presumably specialist) alternative to its original ebook version, instead of vice versa. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.159.146.177 |
I haven't switched to ebooks, either - I use both. ============= There seems to be some sort of denial that the exercising of such a choice, although currently OK, may entail the disappearance eventually of one half of that choice. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.253.77 |
I propose we hold an urban dance-off to settle this debate once and for all. Word. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.159.146.177 |
Better than quips about licking a kindle. | ||
| Colin Leslie (Blackabyss) Username: Blackabyss Registered: 02-2010 Posted From: 86.165.152.107 |
I'll take you on at a Gay Gordon's :-) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmJWf9uk4js | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.253.77 |
How about a book-sniffing contest? "Nobody can sniff 50 harback first editions." | ||
| John Forth (John) Username: John Registered: 05-2008 Posted From: 82.24.1.217 |
Looks like someone's about to get served. Uh... "Yo"... | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.159.146.177 |
When you coming to Clacton again, Zed? | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.253.77 |
Not sure, Des - the mother-in-law works in one of the arcades now (honestly), so her shifts are all queer. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.159.146.177 |
This one?  | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.26.216.33 |
Joel . . . over to you. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 2.24.19.80 |
Cheers, Gary – you made me pause over the photo long enough to appreciate the concept of having a tattoo inside. When's the next train? | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 49.227.108.169 |
Plenty of old books around in NZ. Had to be dragged out of this bookshop in Wellington the other day. I had just enough time to try and find a book I was looking for and a quick chat about Harlan Ellison with the owner. http://www.artybees.co.nz/whats-new/ | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
Given the apostrophe, Joel, I think it refers to a continuous funereal drumbeat, as you enter then disappear forever... and later, yet one more bulb on the skulled phallus lights up.... | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.26.216.33 |
Sorry, Joel, that bloody Dessy boy stole in and buggered up the continuity! | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.159.146.177 |
I think this thread should halt before it gets to 671 and the largest thread here! | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.26.216.33 |
So do I. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.26.216.33 |
That's a solid idea. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.26.216.33 |
It's taking ages to load. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.26.216.33 |
It would be foolish to lengthen it unnecessarily. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.159.146.177 |
So here as the thread's instigator, my personal conclusion from it. The flag is two-edged - or ironic. Meanwhile, for those of us who prefer paperbooks to ebooks (for reasons of unified aesthetics or whatever), the more people actually investing in ebooks will lead at least to LESS choice in paperbooks, eventually. And a different style literature and author recompense to suit ebook formats and economies. That seems to be pretty clear from just applying common sense conclusions to the effect of default human nature or Capitalist Economic machinations. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.159.146.177 |
And, yes, I know I am acting like Cnut the Great. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.66.23.11 |
We only have 30 more posts to go and this will officially be the longest thread ever... | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.159.146.177 |
"Henry of Huntingdon, the 12th-century chronicler, tells how Cnut set his throne by the sea shore and commanded the tide to halt and not wet his feet and robes." | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.159.146.177 |
Weber, as I implied above, I personally feel it will be an achievement *not* to break that barrier. | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 178.116.48.96 |
Amen to that, because it did seem to be the words that counted. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.66.23.11 |
well | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.66.23.11 |
I | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.66.23.11 |
dis | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.66.23.11 |
agree | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.159.146.177 |
I wonder who is being most successfully counter-intuitive here? | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
This is the way the thread ends. This is the way the thread ends. This is the way the thread ends. | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 178.116.48.96 |
Not with a clang but with a clunker. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 89.19.81.238 |
I've always loved this -- are you listening to me -- I've always loved this fucking -- sseriously -- I've always loved this fucking thread. I'll have a small one, thanks. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 166.216.226.29 |
Is Proto drunk? On a Thursday night? In Ireland? Is that allowed? | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 89.19.81.238 |
Is it Thursday? AGAIN? | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
Someone needs to drive him home. Weber? You're mom done pole-dancing for the night? She around? | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
"YOU'RE" mom?!? Gawd. Have her pick me up after.... | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 49.227.37.89 |
Why does American Pie suddenly come to mind.... | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 2.24.30.85 |
Because it goes on for far too long, but starts and ends well? Or do you mean the film? If so: it just does. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.159.146.177 |
Hopefully to really finish this thread, an excerpt from elsewhere that seems to give closure to this debate with everyone agreeing: ============== Nemonymous wrote: For those of us who prefer paperbooks to ebooks, people investing in ebooks will lead at least to LESS choice in paperbooks, eventually. And a different style literature and author recompense to suit ebook formats and economies. That seems to be pretty clear from just applying common sense conclusions to the effect of Capitalist machinations. Reply by someone else: Oh I agree with you here. As ebooks take over the marketplace, you will see fewer books offered as paper books and the price will surely go up. And your 2nd statement as well seems likely. Shorter novels will become more commonplace, I think. Shorter work in general as the medium lends itself to that. But again, Des, this goes back to my original statement to you, you are a hopeless romantic on this subject. That's okay. There's nothing wrong at all with loving books. The smell, the feel, the texture, the experience that you associate with that. But you are in the minority. I truly believe the vast majority of readers are more concerned with price and convenience. And the market will have to respond to that. And it is. Those that hold out will still be able to find books. They arent disappearing off the planet any time soon. But finding new releases, at low prices with wide selections, that is going to get tougher and tougher as popular fiction and disposable reading continues its move to digital. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.159.146.177 |
And my final corollary from that Shocklines thread: Someone: And - not to continue the debate needlessly - I can admit that my main difficulty comes mostly from reconciling my preferences as a READER with my ultimate, bottom-line goal as a writer. The reader in me adores physical books, abhors ebooks, will probably never buy one. The writer, however, ultimately wants to be read and followed, regardless of the media and format. So therein lies the rub.... Me: Again - without wishing to extend this debate needlessly - a further thought, following those interesting comments --- if all writers feel like that about physical books and ebooks (even if they haven't yet admitted feeling like that publicly), and if they band together never to appear in ebooks, then we won't have ebooks. And paperbooks will be saved! Pie in the sky, of course. But perhaps we should all make that token display of rebellion, just to say we were there fighting to the last man or woman for the centuries-old book... | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
Yeah, let's all commit career suicide because Des doesn't like ebooks! | ||
| Jonathan (Jonathan) Username: Jonathan Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.143.178.131 |
Yeah, I'm afraid no author is going to do that, Des. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.159.146.177 |
If only it were just me, I'd agree. Pie in the sky, as I said. Or the body in the book, and that's where this thread started. Nobody is going to pull the scabs off any more. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.66.23.11 |
But finding new releases, at low prices with wide selections, that is going to get tougher and tougher as popular fiction and disposable reading continues its move to digital. That's what fucks me off the most. Me - the reader - the consumer of your product as writers - is going to be forced to fork out more or buy an ugly gizmo that I don't want if I want to keep reading my favourite writers. That's why I think e-books are so shite. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
That's market-led capitalism, baby. We all bought into it decades ago; too late to back out now. And actually, that first statement is incorrect. "Popular fiction" is whatt ebooks were made for - not niche genre fiction, or esoteric writings. Mass market popular fiction - and it's just one click away from the people who want to read it. For years now I've been forced to pay out large sums to buy books by my favourite writers. Ebooks didn't cause that; market demand caused it. And £100 is hardly a large sum. It's the price of 3 expensive limited hardbacks (or two if they're posted from the US). | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.66.23.11 |
I don't buy expensive ltd hardbacks unless they're by very specific writers. I also read a lot of mass market stuff. the Mo hayder's Kern Slaughter, Mark Billingham, Stephen King etc If I'm unlucky, the last 20 books I've bought have barely reached £100. Amazon, second hand places etc are my hunting grounds usually. I don't think I've bought a hardback this year from Waterstone. As a consumer, I should be able to have a choice, and that choice is being taken away from me more and more quickly. That's why I don't like e-readers. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
As a consumer, I also like a choice. That's why I do like ereaders. I don't feeel my choice being taken away. I still buy lots of one-penny decond hand books from Amazon, a few new books here and there from Waterstones, and download titles onto my Kindle. I actually have more choice. Round and around we go...I'm getting dizzy. Btw, as an aside, if you only buy second-hand books you're not supporting your favourite authors. They don't receive royalties from those transactions. The publisher makes nothing from them either. In theory, that's doing more damage to a writer's career than ebooks ever will. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
The only way to register your support for paper books - as Simon Strantzas said eons ago on this very thread - is to visit your local book shop and regularly purchase lots of new titles in that format. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.159.146.177 |
"...I remembered that I write for me, I write to satisfy my creative urges. I don't write for money; I don't write for some idealised audience. I do what I do because I have to, to keep me from doing something even more stupid." Gary McMahon in his blog posted today. And Gary prefers paperbooks, as he said above. As well as asking readers to buy more paperbooks to keep them going (which I personally do and real-time review them), perhaps all writers should write for as many paperbooks as possible while they last. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.66.23.11 |
I want to reserve the choice to not buy an ugly fragile piece of plastic that I'll have to replace every few years as it breaks down or is outmoded. Unfortunately, I may well be forced into buying one as traditional books become unaffordable and mainly unavailable. That's not having more choice in my book... | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
Des, I don't see how I'm contradicting anything I've said here on that blog post. What's your point? Writers don't write for papebooks, ebooks, or hardbacks. They just write. Then, if they want to be published, they have to sell what they've written to to produced on whatever format they can. Writing and publishing are different things. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
Wheeeeeeeeeee...it's like bing on a roundabout, this. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.159.146.177 |
Well it didn't seem to sit well with worrying about 'career suicide' as you did earlier. On the face of it, then, it's not career suicide for you only to write for paperbooks to keep them going (paperbooks that you prefer) - in the same way as you told Weber to buy paperbooks also to keep them going. I am not saying anything categorically. Merely asking the question? Putting forward *seeming* conflicts that you can probably clear up quite easily. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
No conflict there: I write for me, for my own personal reasons. I publish to get paid. Simple. It would be career (and I use that word laughingly) suicide to refuse to have your books published in ebook format (or, in only paperback format), because no professional agent or publisher would take you on - unless you were Stephen King or J.K. Rowling. And I'm not "worrying" about career suicide...I love books in all their forms, and am happy - nay, delighted! - to be published in all those forms. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.159.146.177 |
That's fair enough. It was just the 'I don't write for money' constituent of that quote that seemed to be in conflict. I understand now. You write for yourself. Because that produces the best McMahon material. And there is a firewall between that process and the publishing process thereafter. Quite understandable. It was also you telling Weber to buy more paperbooks if he wants paperbooks to last longer. Writers - if they prefer paperbooks - should arguably *consider* writing only for paperbooks (if they have no 'idealized audience' in mind, like you), and if their means allow. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.66.23.11 |
And Des got post 671!!!! this is now post 678 This is officially the longest thread ever!!!!! | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.159.146.177 |
Yes, sorry about that. But I thought this was a new yet uncovered point from someone else: "And - not to continue the debate needlessly - I can admit that my main difficulty comes mostly from reconciling my preferences as a READER with my ultimate, bottom-line goal as a writer. The reader in me adores physical books, abhors ebooks, will probably never buy one. The writer, however, ultimately wants to be read and followed, regardless of the media and format. So therein lies the rub...." | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
I still fail to see your point. Maybe I'm just thick. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.159.146.177 |
Noone would call you thick, Gary. It's just me not being able to explain myself properly in (what I find to be) an increasingly complex issue. An issue of readers and writers, their separate and combined goals, their needs, and the needs of the centuries-old book itself (that we've all loved since shildhood) in the face of what this thread as a whole has shown to be an increasing threat-to-choice. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
I still don't believe it's a threat to choice. Do you now how many copies of books are pulped each year? I forget the figures, but it's mind-boggling. All that waste. Perhaps print runs for paperbacks will simply become more realistic and based on actual sales rather than outmoded publishing practices? Set print runs could scrapped completely, and we can see the big publishing companies adopting a print-on-demand philosophy. I see the evolution as the ebook as presenting more choice, not less. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.159.146.177 |
I think you are in a minority opinion on this thread, Gary, on that point. Even those who read ebooks, feel that, logically, in the long run, this must mean a diminishment as well as a change in paperbooks as well as a change in what writers write. Some elsewhere say it's happened already, e.g,: "Books are so easily put online as albums and everything has changed... as in 167% increase in ebook sales and 64% decrease in print sales." | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
A diminishment in what terms? Of volume, yes. I don't see how it would change what writers write - the format doesn't affect that; readers and what they buy affects that. Anyway, I'm quitting this debate. We've all said what we need to say and are simply repeating ourselves now. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.26.154.182 |
As moderator, may I suggest you all fuck off? Thanks. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.159.146.177 |
I already had. Only brought back here to see what you had written. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.159.146.177 |
A continuation ??? of this thread: http://www.knibbworld.com/campbelldiscuss/messages/1/5184.html?1316197148  |