| Author | Message | ||
     Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.150.135.253 |
http://www.hic-dragones.co.uk/#/impossible-spaces/4566055093 I have a feeling this would suit many people from this board | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.9.254.65 |
The payment rate wouldn't, I'm afraid. | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 178.116.61.103 |
Sometimes I think writers and translators are considered the lowest of the lower lifeforms.  | ||
| John Llewellyn Probert (John_l_probert) Username: John_l_probert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.158.152.219 |
Sadly I have to say I'm with Ramsey on the payment rate. I've just been looking through some ludicrous guidelines for anthology submissions - ridiculous formatting requirements, "you will not be informed if your story has been rejected, only if it has been accepted"-type nonsense and all for a pittance. No-one should be agreeing to that sort of rubbish. | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
I've just put this one on the BFS site and was thinking of putting it over here - but then I realised that wouldn't be a good idea with no payment (just one contributor copy). In defence of the lady who runs Hic Dragones (I've never met her, but have been in touch by email as I've been putting some of her events and publications on the BFS site) she is VERY new to this business, just starting up and is trying to do a good job. So pleasse don't be too harsh on her. She doesn't yet have funds to pay writers properly. After all, I guess every editor/publisher has to start somewhere? The idea of the book itself sounds great though - and right up the street of those here who are perhaps just starting out and don't mind not getting paid? My intention will be to buy a copy of this when it's published.  | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
"pleasse"  There wasn't meant to be a double "s" in that word - but it does emphasise it, doesn't it? | ||
| Mick Curtis (Mick) Username: Mick Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.181.214.176 |
"Trussssst in me..."! | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.9.254.65 |
I don't know, Caroline. I'd say don't start out as a publisher if you can't pay your authors. After all, Hic Dragones specifically mentions "established writers". And I do wonder what Juniper Manton Ltd can be - I can't find a single online reference to it other than the one on the Hic Dragones web site. If the publishers are a branch of it, shouldn't it be putting up some capital to cover authors' fees? | ||
| Simon Bestwick (Simon_b) Username: Simon_b Registered: 10-2008 Posted From: 213.106.77.123 |
What Caroline said. Hannah is the same lady that was behind the Manchester Monster Convention earlier this year. As Caroline says, she's new but definitely has her heart in the right place. As regards payment, while I agree it's always preferable, most of my first published stories were in contributor-copy-only magazines and anthos. The same story for many others here, I expect. So it's certainly a market worth considering for new writers- or ones, like me, with a large number of unpunished stories already. | ||
| Simon Bestwick (Simon_b) Username: Simon_b Registered: 10-2008 Posted From: 213.106.77.123 |
Or even unpublished ones. That'll teach me to preview first. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
I truly don't get how someone can not pay anything to a writer they're publishing. A 3000 word short story at $.01/word, is a mere $30. You mean to tell me that in 6 months time (the deadline for submissions), and who knows how many months after that to actual print, this woman can't raise enough money on the side to pay the fucking writers anything?!? They don't pay writers because they assume they can get away with not paying the writers. It's insulting. If they were offering something substantial in return—say, it was a highly respected and influential publication, that means extreme career advancement to those appearing therein—that could be considered. Maybe. But is this? This is not 10 years ago, or even 5 years ago. The world has changed, and the internet and online publishing and evolving media and what have you, they've made it so that writers hardly need this kind of crap anymore. Meaning: If you think it's so important to write for X and not be paid, then write for the X that is yourself promoting yourself, not her. From a voyeur's perspective: Absolutely galling. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.130.103.73 |
Most Small Press mags in the 80s and 90s were contributor copy only. I am surprised this is an issue. Isn't that still the case? I don't know as I haven't submitted anything since 1999. You either submit to a publication or you don't. Meanwhile, I have only been too pleased to offer monetary payment on the books I have published. | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
Gosh! I'm surprised at the animosity here, to be honest. As I said, and like Simon says (glad someone's on my side), she's starting out and she certainly seems to love the genre. Note that she's also an academic with an academic interest in genre writing, so there's that side to her too. Personally, I think people like this - with a love of the genre and who are trying to do good - need and deserve encouragement. Of course, those who make a living by writing or are most of the way to doing so, won't want to submit to publications which don't pay well. That's totally understandable. But surely publications like this are a godsend to newer writers trying to get established? And if we say that publishers *must* be able to pay writers a fair amount before starting out, then surely that will discriminate and mean that only those with money to put in themselves can afford to start up small presses? By the way, I didn't see the reference to "Juniper Manton Ltd" which you mention, Ramsey - I'll look into that as I definitely don't know what that is. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.130.103.73 |
I think our posts crossed, Caroline. I, too, agree with you. I can't imagine many Small Press publications offering money as payment these days until they build up their business. My own payments to authors represent a risk I can bear and is more an act of gratitude to the small press in general than a hard-nosed business transaction! | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
OK Juniper Manton Ltd seems to be the trading company which runs a care home: http://www.cqc.org.uk/directory/1-192809876 I see the care home is run by a Mrs Priest. Hannah Kate is the Hic Dragones lady, real name in her academic capacity is Hannah Priest (all this info about Hannah can be found on the Hic Dragones website). So, my guess would be that Hannah lives with her mum who runs a care home. I don't know that for sure but that would be my logical Sherlock Holmesian deduction from a quick look at the evidence. If that's the case then there's nothing to say that her mum, a care home manager, should put in money to fund her small press ambitions, surely? | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
"I think our posts crossed, Caroline." Yes, they did, Des - so I was referring to the posts before yours. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.40.253.139 |
Like Simon, I have many unpunished stories. But what to do with them? Some I wouldn't be able to give away anyway! I've had tales published in pro markets where the payment per word has been reduced because I'm not well known. (Well, unless you count those appearances on Crimewatch.) I'll spare the magazines' names. | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
"I've had tales published in pro markets where the payment per word has been reduced because I'm not well known." Now, to me, that certainly doesn't sound very fair. If a market is a paying one, then it should pay the same rate for everyone IMO - well known author or not well known. BTW I have lots of *unpunished* stories too. They certainly deserve to be punished - for being so bad! | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.130.103.73 |
I agree, Caroline. I think any publications should advertise in advance the set paymenT rates for ANY accepted story by ANY accepted author, whoever they may be. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 86.130.103.73 |
That last post was not agreeing, btw, with your BTW paragraph, CC. | ||
| Rosswarren (Rosswarren) Username: Rosswarren Registered: 11-2009 Posted From: 86.180.0.220 |
For the forthcoming Darker Minds anthology we had an open submission policy with payment of £10 and a print-copy. I was blown away by the quality of subs we recieved even at this relatively small renumeration. As a result we have ended up with 15 great stories from some of the best short story writers out there. However, for a book that is only doing an initial run of a hundred copies we won't be making much, and only then if we sell out. Add to this the fact the Waterstones of this world expect a heavy discount and really any more isn't really viable and several contributors actually expressed a preference for extra CCs instead of payment. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.40.254.67 |
I thought that was how it worked, Des, till I got the emails saying 'Can we buy this story for X amount' rather than the advertised rate per words. Like I'm in a position to say no. And frankly, a Toblerone and free copy of said publication is usually enough to buy me...! It's not like I'm producing stuff to rival Ramsey's work. | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
Oh yes, I could be bought for a Toblerone too, Mark - or any chocolate bar for that matter. Throw in a free book and I'm anybody's. @Des - lol, as the young folk seem to say. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.9.243.20 |
About Juniper Manton. The Hic Dragones web site says (on the "About Us" page): "Hic Dragones is an arm of Juniper Manton Ltd, a health, social care and eduction consultancy." About variable word rates: this has been the case for as long as I've been published. A random instance: I was paid a lower rate than Lin Carter and Fritz Leiber for my tale in The Disciples of Cthulhu back in 1974. They were better known and I thought it reasonable. It isn't the same as paying contributors nothing at all. We used to call such publications fanzines. Here is what August Derleth said to me about them in May 1962: Seriously now, if you have any serious intentions of becoming a writer, it is high time you stopped playing around with fanzines. Fanzine contributions are made up chiefly of two classes—authors not good enough to get into professional print, and authors of some reputations who have been suckered into contributing gratis. Very few fanzine authors have ever subsequently appeared between hard covers. I can’t tell you not to appear in fanzines, but to tell the truth, I will give a long hard look at your book MS. if its contents have been made available to the fans free of charge. The book editor’s point of view is simply this: why shd. I pay for the privilege of publishing this if the author can give it away to a fanzine? That is bound to be my own attitude also. You are a free agent in the mattter, but if I were you, I would certainly not give my work away to the fanzines. . . . | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
I can see your point too, Ramsey (and August's) - but perhaps we're going to have to agree to differ on this one. Personally, I can see a difference between fanzines and emerging small presses, although you could certainly question that opinion of mine too. For my part, I wish Hannah well in her endeavours. I do think we need more well-intentioned and motivated folk around to keep this lovely genre growing. (pity about the typo on her website in the bit you quoted though, Ramsey - that's always a worry with an editor ) Right, if you don't see me around here for a little while it isn't 'cos I've fallen out with you folks, it's 'cos I'm going to be internet-free for a short while. I'll be back, as somebody in the movies once said!  | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.79.43.70 |
I'm sure that advice was sound at the time, but the time was half a century ago. In the current digital age does the advice still hold? I don't know enough to answer that, but I do think that we're in the middle of a fundamental shift in how (or whether!) the arts are funded. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
I agree wholeheartedly with Ramsey and the late Mr. Derleth. People tip their Starbucks' coffee-pourers. They drop dollars into sketchy homeless peoples' hats. They buy lottery tickets and Hostess Cupcakes and six-packs of Bud. And yet they can't spare ANY GODDAMNED DOLLARS AT ALL for hard-working craftsmen/women writers?! At some point, come on! These editors have to be called out on the carpet! No one's dragging them to the printing houses and forcing them to publish books and magazines. And there's nothing wrong with turning around saying they're insulting and degrading writers, by asking for work and offering no remuneration. But then on top of it all, John's digging up that no response on rejections crap?!? WTF, people! Are they The New fucking Yorker they're so swamped with submissions they have no time to or simply can't bother offering even a simple standard rejection slip?! Jesus Christ! I feel personally aggrieved, and I'm not even submitting anything anymore.... Hollywood treats people like this all the time. Difference is, that the pay-off is tremendous, when it (rarely) happens. No one expects anything for nothing, and if they do offer nothing (i.e., no money up-front), they usually offer substantial non-monetary compensation (e.g., an option agreement, which can hold some clout, and greatly benefit a fledgling writer); and most certainly, a definite promise of that eventual monetary compensation (if they can get the film made). I wouldn't DREAM of publishing a book without offering generous payment to all writers involved! And hell, just look at it selfishly: it's a way to ensure the best quality work, since the best writers are going to be jockeying for a place in the final product.... | ||
| Jamie Rosen (Jamie) Username: Jamie Registered: 11-2008 Posted From: 173.32.63.252 |
When I was younger, I subbed to (and was published in) non-paying markets a time or two. Now I only do so if a) it's a reprint; b) there's at least a print copy being provided; c) I know the editor (like the Monster Book For Girls.) Personally, when I made my ill-considered foray into publishing other people's work, I made sure to at least pay *something* -- even when, through a SNAFU on my end, the end product never saw the light of day. But I won't tell other people what they should do, because in the end it's their story. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 94.197.127.123 |
Ta for that stuff about variable rates, Ramsey. I thought it reasonable too, though other folk I mentioned it to thought I was being stiffed and it made me wonder. I'm glad it's not unique to me! | ||
| Stephen Theaker (Stephen_theaker) Username: Stephen_theaker Registered: 12-2009 Posted From: 92.232.184.137 |
If you start a kickabout in the park, don't expect Fabregas to show up. If you're Fabregas, don't show up at a kickabout and complain about not getting paid for it. If he does turn up at your kickabout and you start charging people to watch, share the money with the players. I found a mid-nineties issue of Zene in my files last month, and in the zine reviews there are mentions of Tim Lebbon, Jeff VanderMeer, Paul Di Filippo and Neal Asher, so at least some people who appear in zines go on to appear in hardback. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 94.197.127.154 |
The net throws up problems of another sort. You can get paid for appearing in a free-to-read zine. As a reader it's good value. But if you're getting to read fiction for free, why then pay to read it elsewhere...? As someone commented somewhere about music, people don't want to pay the price of a Mars bar for a song these days. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.150.135.253 |
Mind you, Mars bars are getting really expensive... | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 213.205.233.115 |
That football analogy of Stephen's looks fair to me. I think the world has changed a lot since I submitted to the Small Press in the 80s and 90s. I don't think there is anything called fanzines any more. Ebooks and POD, Internet, who knows for certain where it's all going. Judging one's own position as a writer, one must test each market for what it is or seems, and the more openings there are the more *good* openings there ae likely to be. | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 178.116.61.103 |
If you look at what people like Carl Jacobi got paid - it never amounted to much, but it was something. So if it was a measly 15 dollars, a writer could churn out ten similar stories to try and earn 150. Fifteen times naught equals naught, whichever way you look at it. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.8.26.232 |
Lovecraft was paid a fifth of a cent a word for "The Colour out of Space", I believe. | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 178.116.61.103 |
Yep, that story earned him 25 whole dollars. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.145.211.13 |
I'm not sure why there's suddenly a controversy here. Other contributor copy only anthologies have been advertised here before several times - including monster book for girls which several of us are in. The subject matter on this antho - impossible spaces- seemed to me to be a good match for people on this board who like and write weird fiction. The lady is not trying to rip anyone off as people seem to be suggesting. If she was trying to do that she'd be doing a nicky p - advertising a payment rate and not paying out. There are dozens of small presses on duotrope and ralan who operate the same way as this lady - some don't even offer contributor copies but they are a way to get your stories out there. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 213.205.233.115 |
I agree with that view, Weber. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.197.3 |
I think artists should be paid, but will pushing back at these demands have any effect when globalization precludes unionization? | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.66.23.11 |
Is it better for a small print publisher to give a token payment (which frequently doesn't cover the cost of the publication and therefore leaves th writer out of pocket when they buy a copy to their story in print) or to give a copy of the magazine/anthology for free as payment? | ||
| Barbara Roden (Nebuly) Username: Nebuly Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 216.232.189.61 |
An interesting side observation is the fact that .05 cents a word is considered a pretty good pro rate for fiction these days. It was also considered a pretty good pro rate for fiction back in the 1950s, according to Bob Silverberg, who knows whereof he speaks. He's a frequent contributor to a discussion group I belong to, and it's wonderful to hear him talk about what it was like being a pro writer in the field back in the 1950s and beyond (for example, when someone on the group asks a question about this writer or that con from the 1950s or 1960s, Bob can reply with an 'I knew him/I was there' reply that eliminates speculation and conjecture). Bob's pointed out in the past that at .05 cents a word back in the 1950s, a prolific (and decent) writer could make a pretty good living, partly because there were a lot more markets and partly because living costs were a lot less. So it's interesting, although ultimately fruitless, to speculate why pro rates haven't gone up at the same rate as other salaries in the intervening decades. | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
>>I'm not sure why there's suddenly a controversy here. Other contributor copy only anthologies have been advertised here before several times - including monster book for girls which several of us are in. The subject matter on this antho - impossible spaces- seemed to me to be a good match for people on this board who like and write weird fiction. The lady is not trying to rip anyone off as people seem to be suggesting. If she was trying to do that she'd be doing a nicky p - advertising a payment rate and not paying out. There are dozens of small presses on duotrope and ralan who operate the same way as this lady - some don't even offer contributor copies but they are a way to get your stories out there.<< Totally agree with you, Weber (I'm still here, by the way, but only for a short while). If this anger is being directed towards Hannah, then I do think it's very unfair indeed. However, perhaps we've moved on to talking more generally here about the pros and cons of payment vs. contributor copies? If so, please note that Hannah is doing her best here and isn't ripping people off in any way. She hasn't done anything wrong, and obviously a few of us here do feel that she deserves applause for starting up her small press. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.8.29.215 |
I've offered her a reprint. | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
Aw, Ramsey, that's really good of you. Very many thanks indeed! | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.40.254.85 |
I'm not angry with anyone, Caroline. And good luck to the lady with her antho. Ramsey's a star man! Should encourage others in there. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
I don't think failing to give contributors their own copy of a publication is at all justifiable. Publishers of multi-source reference books sometimes do that because the book costs a small fortune and there are many contributors. Doesn't make it OK though. POD has moved the goalposts where small press publishing is concerned. It used to be accepted that fanzines were produced on a minimal budget and nobody got paid, but anthologies were 'professional' and payment could be relied on. Now fanzines no longer exist, but POD anthologies are proliferating like there's no tomorrow. I find the offer of payment encouraging on two counts: it helps keep me in biscuits, and it signals confidence that some people will actually buy the book. Where no payment is offered, I have to decide how appealing the publication is to me as a potential outlet and as reading matter. Do I submit work to impressive but non-paying publications in order to snag a free copy? You bet. | ||
| Mbfg (Mbfg) Username: Mbfg Registered: 09-2010 Posted From: 212.219.63.204 |
The Exaggerated Press doesn’t pay its authors at the moment, neither does it make any money, in fact, it costs me money. I simply can’t afford to pay writers and, hopefully, make that clear. As for the point that people like me should not have started publishing in the first place. A valid point but what I’m trying to do is give a voice (not a very loud one I must admit, but I'm doing my best) to the people I publish , I offer a way of getting their work packaged - as beautifully as possible - and available. Personally, I still send work to both paying and non-paying "markets". But then it isn’t my day job so I'm not relying on a publisher’s cheque to survive. And when there is one, I see it as icing on an already very tasty cake. Regards Terry | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 178.116.61.103 |
Publishers of multi-source reference books sometimes do that because the book costs a small fortune and there are many contributors. Doesn't make it OK though. That happened to me with an encyclopedia project a few years ago. For the life of me I can't remember the exact title, but I think it came in two volumes and it did cost a small fortune. I supplied a dozen or so short entries. More recently a gentleman who shall remain unnamed wanted me to translate a hefty tome for free. He explained that most of his budget would go to the printer and he didn't want to compromise the quality of his books. Yet another gentleman who never mentioned any kind of payment stipulated I would have to do the work really fast if I wanted to see my name in print. O tempora, o mores. |