| Author | Message | ||
     Jonathan (Jonathan) Username: Jonathan Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.143.178.131 |
For fuck's sake! Discuss | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.145.131.124 |
Micheal should be ashamed. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 06-2008 Posted From: 86.156.32.207 |
She's not related to Michael Palin?!! | ||
| Jonathan (Jonathan) Username: Jonathan Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.143.178.131 |
No, she's related to Satan. I hate fundy idiots giving 'normal' believers like myself a bad name. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 212.121.214.11 |
She's related to Stan? I didn't know he had an Aunty Sarah, although from what I've seen on the news of this woman, it's probably true. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 212.121.214.11 |
Stan?? Satan even. Bollocks | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.3.212 |
Someone somewhere had a great quote about her - wish I could credit the right guy, but - anyway (and paraphrasing), Sarah Palin looks like the chicks in those Van Halen videos who are just about to throw off those glasses and pull down their hair and rip off their tight business suits and get nasty.... So she's related to Satan?... Wow. And here I always thought the AntiChrist would be more, I dunno... scary. Gal's got presence, is funny with a great delivery, and certainly easy on the eyes. I actually wouldn't mind her ushering in the dark doom of all mankind, if she could wink and throw in a few of her patented zingers doing it. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 212.74.96.200 |
See, the problem is no one would vote for her in any other country, but in the US "faith" is almost an article of the constitution, and her right to believe (and hjave other people believe what she believes) is considered by a considerable number to be more important than teh facts that contradict her belief that the world is less than 10,000 years old etc. Scary stuff. And yet, I think there's a good chance she'll be voted in. Because guys are gonna look at her and imgine her taking off those glasses and shaking out her hair, then slipping out her clothes to those red and black undies she wears and do a pump and grind to some Wendy and Lisa on the stereo. Uh. I've said too much, haven't I? | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Two words: Jilly. Cooper. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 212.74.96.200 |
You've set me off now . . . | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.240.203 |
Just believing the Earth is less than 10,000 years old - which is ludicrous, personally, but anyway - just believing that, shouldn't disqualify you from high office. Why can't people ever say, "I disagree with Candidate X, on his view on Issue Y; I prefer the country go this way on Y, but he wants it to go that way; I want my Y, he wants his Y, and that's why I disagree with him"? Why can't it be a civilized disagreement on specific issues? Why instead, do people always have to play the Satan card?...  <--- love you, Jonathan | ||
| Jonathan (Jonathan) Username: Jonathan Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 79.69.32.56 |
I love you too. In a beautifully plantonic yet deeply manly way. Creationists scare the crap out of me. There's faith and then there's just total denial of scientific evidence. It just depresses me so much that it's often not the moderate, compassionate Christians that win through, it's these tub thumping "Jesus loves everybody apart from you" type of people. I love the fact that these are Christians who bang on about the all encompassing love of God and then go on to detail how that love is actually selective. Genius. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 212.74.96.200 |
Jonathan, if you take away the Bible, what evidence would you give for your faith and belief? Just the universe's existence, I'm guessing. Which fine, I'd be happy to give you as it's an almost esoteric argument. But there's no evidence for a personal god or gods, is there? Part of me is envious of your faith, to have that belief. Yet I see hard facts and find a cold and moving beauty in the random architecture of the universe, and know this is it, and that's enough, that being dead shouldn't hold any more fears than being unborn should hold. But I don't want to die. I truly don't. Yet it will happen. Probably. | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 79.70.101.140 |
It is not the dying - it is the manner of the death... | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.22.237.56 |
I verily believe that as one grows older, one comes to grips with the notion of dying. "And I'm feeling the cold, thinking we're getting older and wiser when we're just growing old." | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.242.126 |
I verily believe that as one grows older, one comes to grips with the notion of dying. Could I have that in writing? To paraphrase Woody Allen, I'm not scared of dying I just don't want to be there when it happens. I envy Jon his beliefs; I really wish that I believed in something. Anything. Nothingness is a heavy burden to carry. | ||
| Mick Curtis (Mick) Username: Mick Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.154.242.64 |
Nothingness is a heavy burden to carry. It is, but you're not carrying it alone. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.242.126 |
"The road is long..." ;-) | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.22.237.56 |
I do feel I've been deceived by time. When I was 10 or 12, a summer afternoon outside with my friends lasted an eternity (and believe me, some of our adventures were very Bradburian), while now the days, weeks, years and months simply seem to evaporate. I can hardly believe that it only took me ten years to reach the ripe old age of twenty - seems more like a century, a very exciting century, at that. I wish it would take that long to reach fifty once you're forty, and so on. I know it's just a matter of perception, but that doesn't make it any less disturbing. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Become unemployed. That'll sort you out. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
I'm not so fussed about death now. I was seriously hypochondriacal as a teenager, so I guess I've been forced not to fret too much about it. As Stephen Fry once said, dying's easy; it's living that's hard. I don't believe in anything beyond this single, conscious existence, btw. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
I once read that a serious fear of death is intimately related to a reluctance to live life to the hilt. As soon as you take the brakes off and accept life in all its variousness, risk and adventure, then death loses its sting. Another quote: the closer you are to death, the more you feel alive. I think that translates to: a life played safely is a kind of death in itself. So you end up fearing death because it spells an end to all the things you choose not to do anyway. One of the paradoxical existential tricks we play on ourselves. I'm just off to book those parachute jumping sessions... | ||
| Jonathan (Jonathan) Username: Jonathan Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.143.178.131 |
Hulloh I'm not so much arguing about evidence versus faith (which is a big complex discussion), rather I'm more miffed at the fact that the fundys seem to be one of the prevalent voices in the US. Even republican friends of mine (don't worry, there aren't many) who I respect and like seem to think Palin's kind of cool, which really really worries me. My experience of faith and spirituality is not as an exclusive club or about narrow mindedness. It's about openness and sharing, understanding and - most importantly and 'fundamentally' if you will - love. As for the Bible, that's not the only evidence I need or see of Christ's work and love happening in the world. (See, now I'm edging towards starting to sound a little bit glory glory hallelujah), that's actually through my community, my family, my friends and various things going on in the wider world. I'm so conscious that it's so hard to describe my faith sometimes with conviction without sounding a touch preachy or odd to some people. The majority of my friends are atheists and I'm no way in this to convert people. No, there is no absolute evidence of a God (or Gods if you like, have lots of pagan friends and friends of other faiths too). But my spiritual experience and beliefs are not weakened by that. I don't witness God through acts of supernatural power (although I believe that they can very occasionally happen, although 'supernatural' is probably the wrong word for it and a bit misleading) but in a much quieter and often more powerful way. Anyway, I'm waffling and you're probably all thinking I sound like I need extensive counseling. Back to the discussion: Sarah Palin - Just no, simply no. | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 79.70.4.183 |
'a life played safely is a kind of death in itself.' So true - mind you having been a 'wild child' at various times in my life I savour inactivity sometimes. Balance is all but if you want to live life to the full you have to take a risk or two occasionally. | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.187.4 |
There are days when I feel I'd almost welcome death, and then later I feel really guilty and angry about feeling that way. Hackneyed as it may sound, I don't fear it so much for myself, but for those I care about. As for Palin, I don't like her and can't imagine America (or the world) being a better place with her as VP, or, heaven forbid, president. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 212.74.96.200 |
Thanks, Jonathan. You sound like my favourite type of Christian -- like the current archbish of Canterbury. I'm still with Richard Dawkins, though. >>I once read that a serious fear of death is intimately related to a reluctance to live life to the hilt. Yes. I think that affected me intensely for a time, and probably still does, though more in a passive way now. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.242.126 |
I dunno, I've always grasped the thistle in life, but death absolutely terrified me. When I go, I want to be in so much pain that I'm begging for the end yet unaware of it happening. Anything else is unimaginable. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.2.38 |
What is that old joke? I want to go like my grandfather did, peacefully in his sleep... not screaming, like the passengers in his car. Even better, Zed, I guess, is to go to sleep one night, and never wake up, right? Except... no, I won't go there.... | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.2.38 |
Jonathan, if you take away the Bible, what evidence would you give for your faith and belief?... Actually, Mark, to be technical - for many centuries, the Church relied on "witnesses" for testimony: saints and holy men who worked miracles and saw Jesus, Mary, etc., and reported back. One could, therefore, say: "The Bible's pretty crazy, you ask me... but say, that guy over there, he's got a stigmata, and he says he saw Jesus, and Jesus told him a whole bunch of stuff... wow! Hell, whatev about that big Latin monstrosity - I'm a JESUS MAN!" It is only relatively recently (the last 400 years or so) that extra-curricular evidence has been on the wane; but it's as valid a proof of one's personal faith - i.e., reliable (of course, one must personally define that term...) testimony - as believing the words written down in a book.... | ||
| Jonathan (Jonathan) Username: Jonathan Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.143.178.131 |
Dawkins I respect massively as an important scientist who can communicate complex scientific theories to the laity in understandable terms. As a Christian I find him a bully and find his methods of talking about faith overly aggressive. Mind you, I'm sure he'd say the same of Christians. In some cases he'd be correct too. Not sure I understood Craig's post to be honest. Sure, death is pretty scary but getting on with living is pretty important. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.145.131.124 |
Zed - Nic Roeg was so serene. I think he was content, and was quite moved by the fact there were so many young people in the audience. When you get old you're ready to go, I think. Think Craig was saying a good Christian is a questioning Christian. Another joke; Two little kids in Switzerland called Hans and Fritz go up a mountain with their mum. Fritz suddenly pushes their mum off a cliff, then turning to his brother says 'Look Hans, no ma!' | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.4.144 |
Not sure I understood Craig's post to be honest. Hey, I'm always honest! Except when I'm lying. What I'm saying, is that this Bible-shibboleth for faith is inaccurate, according to history: Martin Luther essentially invented the whole sola scriptura, sola fide theory of religion, that everyone everywhere now takes for granted. But there was a time when, say, a simple miracle worker passing through your village, dropping a few platitudes, performing a few tricks, and then wandering on, WAS enough to base your faith upon. The evidence was: that guy, who said that, did that, and I believe him. Ironically, the Catholic Church has never made the Bible the "idol" it is in all other Christian religions... ironical, becuase it made the Bible.... In sum: it is perfectly valid to be a believing Christian, with supporting "evidence," and none of that evidence being the Bible. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 212.74.96.200 |
Hmm. My point, sort of, was if no one had told you there was a god and you were investigatin the universe soley by scientific method, would you need a god to make it work? The answer's no. And certainly no as far as a personal god is concerned. Rowan Williams sportingly put himself up for interview on Dawkins's recent Darwin show -- and without being cruel, Dawkins did point out that in the face of lack of facts Williams was falling back on poetry as an explanation of the universe! Dawkins did say he had a lot of time for Williams's brand of Christianity, though felt he was tying himself in knots to such an extent that God was getting pushed so far out of the equation to not be worth being there. I like the new Sarah Palin action figure, by the way . . . | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 212.74.96.200 |
Obama's getting cranked, isn't he? | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 212.74.96.200 |
Oh, and there was a bloke on the radio last night from Christian Voice. He coldn't understand evolution and therefore it couldn't exist, seemed ot be his position. He was actually quite scary. Another of the 6,000 years old brigade. And yeah, anyone who thinks the world is only 10,000 years old should probably be excluded form holding high office, much as they should be if they think they're Napolean or that the world is flat. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 212.74.96.200 |
Sarah Palin's getting so popular that I suspect the Republican campaign's slogan may soon be "Vote McCain, he's old enough to die in office", just so people vote for him to see her as the first Lady President. | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.22.227.26 |
"anyone who thinks the world is only 10,000 years old should probably be excluded form holding high office, much as they should be if they think they're Napolean or that the world is flat." Hear, hear. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.0.19 |
... anyone who thinks the world is only 10,000 years old should probably be excluded form holding high office, much as they should be if they think they're Napolean or that the world is flat. Thinking you're Napolean would have direct and dangerous implications on your ability to lead a nation; so would believeing the Earth is flat, though to a lesser degree. Thinking the world is 10,000 years old... um... gee, I'm pretty sure our founding fathers here, and many other Presidents, believed it was less older than that... | ||
| Jonathan (Jonathan) Username: Jonathan Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 79.77.78.33 |
The thing is I don't really want to experience the universe or reality or whatever through solely scientific methods and I'm not sure anybody else would want to either. The guy from Christian Voice is a particularly nasty piece of work. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.145.131.124 |
They said on the radio that scientists are still unable to explain matter. Thank, um, 'Cloud Guy'. Einstein believed in God; he said it was the only unavoidable fact. Also, the guy who devised the original version of this machine everyone was talking about yesterday was a believer, too. What do folk make of these people? Marie says when you think of a scientific explanation for all it all makes sense, and if you think of a supernatural one it al makes sense. I think that makes for fun; if either were concrete the world would be very dull. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.74 |
"I once read that a serious fear of death is intimately related to a reluctance to live life to the hilt. As soon as you take the brakes off and accept life in all its variousness, risk and adventure, then death loses its sting." Makes sense to me. I can also report that having someone wish you dead for the good of your field simply made me more determined to live longer on its behalf - I hope that's true of Christopher as well. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 87.102.92.194 |
Seems to me that living life to the full would mean less thinking about things. I should think such people would care about little. Thank god we are all shut ins. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 129.11.77.197 |
I think you're taking about those people who are driven to preoccupy themselves as a defence against troubling ruminations. I read an interesting interview with Sir Peter Hall in which he was self-aware enough to realise that if he stopped working, he'd fall prey to neurosis. Other research shows that those people who embrace life fully can lead reflective, worthy, compassionate lives. Check out Robin Skynner's discussions about what he terms the 'super-healthy'. Very interesting, and quite different from most psychology which focuses on dysfunction. As Skynner claims, if you want to learn to play golf, you'd study a master. So if you want to learn to live well, why does psychology preoccupy itself with those people who are not? | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.23.233.246 |
But with me I want to do stuff, but my misery gets in the way - I put off doing something in case somebody criticizes me when it gets done! | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 129.11.77.198 |
>>>Seems to me that living life to the full would mean less thinking about things. I should think such people would care about little. My experience is that engagement in everyday life actually leads to more care than aloof extraction from it. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 129.11.77.198 |
>>>But with me I want to do stuff, but my misery gets in the way - I put off doing something in case somebody criticizes me when it gets done! But criticism, if it's well meant, forces us to grow. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.23.233.246 |
But my stupid rejection issues! They stop me. For me even praise is something to question. Never been able to shake it. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.238.244 |
As Skynner claims, if you want to learn to play golf, you'd study a master. So if you want to learn to live well, why does psychology preoccupy itself with those people who are not? I think this brings us back to the original topic. Sarah Palin is the sudden unique character she is in the current culture, because she positively electrifies her fan base: everyone who loves her, sees her as the representation of stability and success and determination, through his/her own lens. I think that's because, the emotion that Sarah radiates, whatever you think of her... is joy. She hasn't once - it's early still, but so far, not even slightly! - betrayed an emotion that could be defined as remotely resembling "anger." Her mood is always positive, up, and energizing. She skewers her opponents with an innocent wink. Hell, she lacks all cynicism! She comes off that way, at least... and how rare is that in politics?!... Obama, Biden, and McCain, are all "angry old men" by comparison. Palin is so happy and assured of herself, that's the perception she's created, that it can only be infectious. She also seems not to be (whatever one thinks of her) pretentious, two-faced, or elitist: she's an ingénue, but we all love worshipping those suddenly-appearing messiahs. Obama was one once, that people here used to worship, a long, long time ago.... | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 77.86.108.178 |
I put off doing something not because people might hate it but because I'm a good for nothing lazy piece of crap.  | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.11.141 |
Yeah, I know, Albie. I went to Borders yesterday trying to buy your new novel, and you made me look like an IDIOT when the guy behind the counter told me you hadn't written it yet! | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.22.227.26 |
 | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 77.86.108.178 |
 I haven't even gotten around to having the experiences that will eventually inspire the novel. I shouldn't have organised that massive promotion campaign so early. Still, you were putting back enough FREE champagne at the launch party. How is Arty, btw? Does he still have that cabin in the woods? | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 212.74.96.200 |
>>So if you want to learn to live well, why does psychology preoccupy itself with those people who are not? The NLP blokes are big into that tone too, Gary. but I suspect you know. >>I can also report that having someone wish you dead for the good of your field simply made me more determined to live longer on its behalf Ramsey, you'll live forever. >>The guy from Christian Voice is a particularly nasty piece of work. Sure is. At one point he was bringing stuff up -- misrepresntations or plain inventiveness of theories of folk working in evolution -- the likes of which you haven't heard since the 1970s BNP conferences . . . That old "certain races of man are meant to have come from gorillas" argument. No prizes for guessing which particular colour he was associating with that. Hey, apparently Sarah Palin's got herself a passport now! She didn't have one till last year. So good she's prepared for all those foreign policy issues! | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.145.131.124 |
>>I can also report that having someone wish you dead for the good of your field simply made me more determined to live longer on its behalf Ramsey, you'll live forever.' Ha! that sounds like loads of folk want him dead! | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 212.74.96.200 |
Oops! Good point, Tony. Didn't mean that at all, Ramsey! I meant your books and stories will be around forever. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 212.74.96.200 |
When questioned about how long ago dinosaurs walk the earth, did she really say somethign along the lines of If dinosaurs pooped oil 4,000 years ago, I'm pretty sure God didn't want us to leave it buried. At least she's a conviction politician. Didn't have an abortion and is raising a downs syndrome child, is sending her son off to get shot at in Iraq. . . More than that . . . uh, I wouldn't like to say. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 160.6.1.47 |
"At least she's a conviction politician. Didn't have an abortion and is raising a downs syndrome child, is sending her son off to get shot at in Iraq. . . More than that . . . uh, I wouldn't like to say." How well can she really raise a child with special needs while running a presidential election campaign? While being the No.2 leader of the USA? (Would I ask that question if she was male? Probably not, but the point is still valid, as he works too.) | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 160.6.1.47 |
By he I mean her husband. By child, I mean a four month old baby. | ||
| Barbara Roden (Nebuly) Username: Nebuly Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 216.232.189.45 |
No, you probably wouldn't ask the question of a male politician, even if his wife worked, because everyone would simply assume that either the wife would give up her job or they'd hire a caregiver to look after the children while both continued to work, which would be seen as eminently reasonable in the case of a male politician. In the case of a female politician, however, it's somehow an issue: if the husband gives up his job then you can cue all sorts of stupid, demeaning, and sexist 'Mr Mom' cracks, and if they hire a caregiver while both work then the woman is seen as doing something terribly wrong ('Imagine hiring another person to bring up your own children! Scandalous! What kind of mother is she?' etc., etc.). Funny how men with families can go off and run corporations or countries and no one thinks twice about it, but if a woman with a family does the same thing then people feel free to call into question her parenting skills, her feelings as a mother, and all the rest of it. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.12.179 |
Sarah Palin is a wealthy governor/politician, who has more than enough resources to have armies of nannies and nurses and psychologists and teachers - not to mention a few perfectly-capable siblings - adequately raising a downs-syndrome child, while she's busy for a few hours VP-ing. Why do we have to go these strange sexist routes in attacking our politicians?... The anti-religious routes?... They're all liars and cheats, isn't that what we're supposed to believe? Isn't that what we always like saying out loud, to our friends and neighbors? Oh, but right - then an election rolls around - and we have to pretend our guy is above all that, because no one likes to vote for a liar and a cheat. Who lies and cheats the least? That's one valid approach. Here's another: Which one will shovel the most goodies in my mouth? The flipside: Which one will f*ck me the least?... That's usually how I finally decide.... | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.12.179 |
Barbara, you said it better than I did... clearly you have no small children at home getting in the way of your RCMB postings....  | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 160.6.1.47 |
Well, I can't speak for "everyone", just me. And I'm not speaking about all jobs, just this one. Working is one thing -- running a presidential campaign, then co-running the USA, quite another. | ||
| Barbara Roden (Nebuly) Username: Nebuly Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 216.232.189.45 |
Why? Does Barack Obama get asked who's going to look after his children, and how he can expect to raise a young family at the same time that he's running the U.S., should he get elected in November? Of course he doesn't, because he's a man, and we're used to seeing men running things without anyone worrying about their families (because presumably there's a wife somewhere who'll look after that). Put the shoe on the other foot, though, and suddenly it's an issue. By your reasoning, any woman who wants to run for president of the U.S. should either have no children, safely grown children, or a husband who is prepared to give up his job in order to look after the family. I may not agree with many of Sarah Palin's beliefs and views, but from what I've seen of the middle-aged and old white guys running most countries, a youngish woman who's used to juggling multiple demands on her time couldn't possibly do much worse, and might in fact do better. | ||
| Barbara Roden (Nebuly) Username: Nebuly Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 216.232.189.45 |
Tim's actually off with the weekend nanny right now; I expect I'll see him tonight before he goes to bed, when he will have had his bath and be in his freshly pressed jammies and the nanny will bring him in for a moment so that I can take time out from busy schedule to enquire vaguely as to how he his before sending him off to bed with a pat on the head and an absent-minded kiss. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.16.87.42 |
Couldn't one also ask the unfair question: "Mr. Obama, isn't it true you're going to, necessarily, have to neglect your marriage to Michelle to some degree, being taken up full-time with the position of Most Powerful Leader on Earth?... Mr. Obama, a follow up question if I may: Which do you love more - your wife, or your country?..." Barbara, it sounds like you morbidly dote upon the child... cut the cord, already!...  | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 212.74.96.200 |
Dinosaurs didn't poop oil. At least not the kind you turn into aviation fuel. And I'm damn sure they didn't poop it only 4,000 years ago . . . | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.243.248 |
Mark, life is an illusion: a wicked demon created you and I, the Earth we're on, all the (implanted) memories we have, roughly 5 minutes ago... and only made it seem like 4000 years ago, to Sarah Palin, dinosaurs pooped.... | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 212.74.96.200 |
Then we're the wicked demon, Craig. Shitter. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 212.74.96.200 |
The situation's the shitter, by the way! Not you! | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.211.85 |
There are two factors which make her situation different from Obama's: her 4 month old baby has special needs and Palin is female. Young children tend to bond early on more with their mothers than their fathers. I thought that too obvious to be worth stating. This is someone who has chosen to spend less in her child's company at a time in its development when it's likely to need her most. Actually, I don't really care that much. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 67.116.103.241 |
I agree with you Proto, on that... the problem is, that "double-standard" not only doesn't exist anywhere else, but it could form the basis of nasty lawsuits to anyone who tried to implement such a workplace-ethic... there's some hoisting on petards going on with all this, certianly.... | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 147.252.230.154 |
Most of the comments and opinions thrown about about the candidates are generalisations and very personal. There's nothing else to talk about -- we don't really know these people after all. | ||
| Adriana (Adriana) Username: Adriana Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.230.239.233 |
"dying's easy; it's living that's hard" I agree. This has been something I've struggled with my whole life. In the last two years, I've gone so far as to spend some time with a few people who were dying. 3 people in my life who were terminal. People didn't want to sit with them, because of how far gone the were. It seems many people have difficulty seeing people at the end (I imagine because it brings up too many issues about mortality etc.) Meanwhile I felt more at ease with each of these individuals that I did when they were healthy and thriving. What does that mean? Am I so afraid of life, that I'd rather hold someone's hand that is about to pass away? And why is it then when I do, I feel a sense of peace and even happiness. | ||
| Adriana (Adriana) Username: Adriana Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.230.239.233 |
"The thing is I don't really want to experience the universe or reality or whatever through solely scientific methods and I'm not sure anybody else would want to either. " Here here | ||
| Adriana (Adriana) Username: Adriana Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.230.239.233 |
I have a real issue with the notion of 'absolute proof'. For one thing there was a time where we didn't have our 'scientific processes' and yet, the world still existed. There was a time in all things that work, when they didn't yet. In all things that we could prove, that we couldn't yet. I frankly find it arrogant when people claim to 'know' things with absolute certainty -- as apposed to believing things. As far as I'm concerned nothing is infallible. | ||
| Jonathan (Jonathan) Username: Jonathan Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.143.178.131 |
Exactly and that's why I have a problem with Dawkins. I have a problem with anybody who claims to have a monopoly on truth. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.114.128 |
I see the government is backing a three year study into NDEs. I'm partly scared - what if they discover it's all a load of bull? | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.143.186.238 |
They won't. After all, that's what Brown's experiencing now. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.114.128 |
 Anyone pity Brown? To me him and Blair were those two guys from Broadcast News, Blair being the charmer, the one that made you listen, and Brown the sweaty one with the heart. To me he's just doing the best he can on impossibly rough seas for the whole world. I used to like him. Mind, I liked Blair, but then I know as much about politics as you do about movies.  BTW I'm hating these changing times, what with Britain turning Polish or whatever, signs in different languages in shop windows. That's not right, surely? Speak English, fellahs! | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.242.126 |
These are dark days, Tony - we're all reaping the worldwind of absolute single-minded greed and short-term vision. You can't blame just the current gov't for it all, though; things would be at least the same under any other party. All politicians are in it for what they can get out of it, and they can only see to the end of their nose (or their term, whichever is shorter). | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.114.128 |
I think we should always have two pms at any given time, like left and right sides of the brain. They should bicker but achieve stuff, meet in the middle. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.74 |
"BTW I'm hating these changing times, what with Britain turning Polish or whatever, signs in different languages in shop windows. That's not right, surely? Speak English, fellahs!" In case you're not teasing (or even if you are) - well, Chinatown districts in Britain have had street signs in languages other than English for quite a while. More to the point, every town I've visited in Greece and Turkey and Japan has had signs in English as well as in the local language. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.114.128 |
I suppose. I mean I know the streets aren't our houses but to some extent it's like folk within your home suddenly starting speaking in code. I get uneasy at such things, possibly because these things now aren't in districts per se, but in other places. And these people are strangers; I feel we need some sort of befriending ceremony to smooth things, not just this sudden appearance. also - Polish papers in the supermarkets? We've not had any other languages so far as I can recall. My unease may well be unfounded but I still have it, and wish I didn't. Must be how Welsh speakers feel. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 147.252.100.92 |
That unease seems perfectly reasonable to me. Is there anything more alienating than a group of people laughing at something you can't understand? It's like that new '80s Twilight Zone episode. (If you've seen it, you'll know the one I mean.) | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.114.128 |
I suppose when you think about it it would be mad not to feel uneasy, unless unlike me you're an entirely rational, gregarious fellow. I get scared when I hear other languages around me; it's atavistic, has the ring of invasion (not that it is, of course). Even now my feeble heart is racing! | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.114.128 |
BTW our speedy chav speak bothers me too. Those quick and almost alien dialects they use scares the shit out of me. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 87.102.81.100 |
I don't mind the Polish signs. POLSKI SMAK. Is funny, yes? I never go inside them though. I don't own any Polish money. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.74 |
Lord, don't ever go on holiday anywhere they don't speak English as a first language. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 87.102.81.100 |
That's ok. I don't speak English either. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.74 |
And heaven knows how all the folk in Georgioupolis and Troulos and Skala and too many other places for me to name feel about seeing English and French and German and Dutch newspapers in the racks. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 87.102.81.100 |
They would probably smash them like plates. I couldn't think of anything else. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.114.128 |
I never have. What are you saying, Rambo? That I'd freak out in a foreign country because everyone spoke foreign? Can I not voice fears? Not fears for things coming, that we'll all be taken over by Johnny Foreigner, just simple fears? Is it wrong to try and talk about them? Jeezuz, what are you like? Miserable, humour-free sod. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 87.102.81.100 |
Yowzer. Someone say something funny. quick. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 87.102.81.100 |
We have french shops in England. Cafes. Disgusting. I never know whether to go in or not. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.74 |
Gosh, this is fun. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 87.102.81.100 |
I hope the Polish do take us over. Their women seem so much sluttier than ours. Tee hee. Sadly their eyes are too close together. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.114.128 |
I have no recollection of saying I was happy for English language to take over other countries, or for foreign identity to be eroded by ours. It felt all too clearly like i was being accused of thinking this was just a one-way problem, that I was intolerant. Anxiousness about social situations and changes to ones environment is NOT prejudice. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 83.98.9.4 |
I hate it when people speak in foreign but then they laugh at you in English... | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 160.6.1.47 |
Well, at least nobody's going to argue that your stress isn't real! Steady, Tony. I understand what you're saying, but you do need to calm down a few notches. That was rude. It's the stress talking. Just talk to us. We're listening... | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.114.128 |
But it feels like i'm being deliberately misunderstood. It might be 'civilly put' but it's downright bloody hurtful. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 87.102.81.100 |
I'm not listening. I'm on Nikki's website looking at naughty pictures. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 87.102.81.100 |
Or hide the minge as I call it. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
Eek! I think you went a bit overboard there, Tony. I'm sure we all understand what kind of social anxiety you're refering to, but there's no need to reduce the discussion to name-calling. You're too intelligent for that, mate. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 160.6.1.47 |
"But it feels like i'm being deliberately misunderstood." Then just say so. I actually agree with you on that point, but that isn't a license to be rude. Maybe get into the habit of taking the time to get your thoughts together before posting something ill-advised. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
I agree with Proto - Tony, remember this forum is just words on a screen, and it's often difficult - nay, impossible! - to infer meaning and context. I doubt anyone is trying to deliberately misunderstand you; just a side-effect of online communication. No afces. No body language. No subtle gestures. Just words on a screen. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.114.128 |
To feel bad about a thing and then have muck rubbed in your face is hurtful, though. He didn't say 'Oh, I feel like that sometimes,' did he? He had to make some high-falutin dig. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 160.6.1.47 |
This is a place of social interaction, and there are agreed rules (some of which are implicit) by which the system works. I think you can express any idea or thought, no matter how atavistic, raw and "socially unacceptable" as long as you take the time to observe the rules of how that idea is communicated. You might be sending hate-mail, but the envelope still has to bear a stamp and an address or it shouldn't be delivered. Courtesy is a lubricant. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 87.102.81.100 |
I'm reminded of that passage, written by Ramsey, about the school boys not taking a liking to him at school. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.114.128 |
But one can swear and be less cutting than when using carefully chosen words. Those can be quite cold, an insult can be warm. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Tony, I think you need to attend the Albie/Fry school of Internet comportment. Seriously, debate can be lively and challenging without explicit rancour. It does looks as if you've stepped a little too far above. But hey, everyone, let's move on. I'm sure nobody's going to bear a grudge or whatever. We all know each other too well for that, yeah? | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 160.6.1.47 |
Again, if that's what you really think, then just say so and let everyone else make up their own minds. You're expressing yourself clearly enough now. You've demonstrated great imagination and sensitivity for years on this board. I don't think that earlier post was worthy of you. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 87.102.81.100 |
I don't think Ramsey was that scathing. I just think Tony feels like Ramsey is always taking an opportunity to attack him. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
That's how it appears to me, too. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 87.102.81.100 |
But I thought Tony's original statement did sound a bit aggressive. But given that we know Tony is a good fellow we take that into account and therefore we are not aggrieved. So we would respond much more democratically. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
I didn't feel Ramsey's comments were either personal or unreasonable. Nearly every country in the world is multi-lingual by necessity. The English are pretty much unique in that they take a pride in speaking no other language. I know a senior person in a major UK publishing company who was made redundant because she let slip in a meeting that she was fluent in over twenty languages. This led the yuppie MD to decide that she probably wasn't going to be loyal enough to the corporate brand. There is nothing at all wrong with our having multi-lingual signs in our streets and shops, and there is certainly nothing wrong with saying as much. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Only the other day, in the context of a discussion about authors going into bookshops, Ramsey offered reassuring words to Tony and called him "mate". It's clearly nothing personal. I think the flare up above was probably born of the delicate issue: multiculturalism. Let's all heave a collective sigh of relaxation... | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 87.102.81.100 |
I think Tony was talking about shops with foreign names. That have foreign words on the window and only sell foreign food. They do feel uninviting. I've never been in one in case they start to talk in Polish about the motherland. Or is the fatherland? | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
After all, if we - with all our different voices - can't get on after years of interaction, what chance anyone else? | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 160.6.1.47 |
Right, let's move onto religion... | ||
| Mick Curtis (Mick) Username: Mick Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.154.242.64 |
I've not been able to read the last few posts through the tears in my eyes, laughing my stupid head off at Albie's "hide the minge" comment! | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 87.102.81.100 |
Well, I thought I'd slip that one in, under the cover of this present storm. You know, like politicians do. I found the minge, by the way. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 83.98.9.4 |
I hate it when people speak in foreign but then they laugh at you in English... | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 87.102.81.100 |
Unless she had her underpants on inside out and that was a seam. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 87.102.81.100 |
What do I have to do get a smack on the arse? | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 83.98.9.4 |
just ask nicely and I'm sure someone on the board would be happy to pop round and oblige you. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
It's all about credentials and qualification. Fetishists are as choosy as anyone else – usually more so. Don't go to a serious specialist for a bit of casual fun. Go to me. But maybe not in this instance. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.114.128 |
OK, maybe I sprung a rivet. Albie; I was talking of big posters handwritten in Polish in a window. I don't know why it gave me a turn - imagination trained on the negative, maybe, wanting an 'old England' (not the foxhunting, 'paki-bashing' one, I hasten to add)not to be diluted, become unfamiliar to me, uncomfortable. I re-read the 'mate' post and even it started to look like there was veiled criticism in it somewhere. Where this has come from i have no idea. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
We still love ya, Tone! | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 160.6.1.47 |
Do you mean the criticism or your perception of it? | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Well, that's a neat demonstration of the sheer ambiguity of cold print. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.247.34 |
Polish east-European-Slavs, or Polish submarine-fleet-at-the-bottom-of-the-ocean-with-screen-doors? | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.114.128 |
I don't know. I couldn't nail the tone in the post. When I held it up it had all these facets that could have been kind or insinuative. I do do this in my life, though, which has led to lots of fun, oh yes. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 160.6.1.47 |
You can't lose by assuming the best of someone who performs an ambiguous action. Scenario 1: They didn't mean to be nasty. You are nice. They feel appreciated. Scenario 2: They meant to be nasty. You are nice. Your pleasantness will infuriate them. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 87.102.81.100 |
If Ramsey saw Tony as a "mate" he would know that he sometimes posts in a seemingly aggressive, scary way and would take into account that he is basically a good guy (You hope. I don't. I'm hoping he's a psycho). In the same way that when I'm threatening to kill someone, I'm really just about to maim them in a sexual fashion. | ||
| Adriana (Adriana) Username: Adriana Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.230.239.233 |
I bloody love you guys. | ||
| Adriana (Adriana) Username: Adriana Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.230.239.233 |
I also feel like I'm in a parallel universe. (It mostly has to do with you, Albie. Do you remember when... oh no, never mind.) Anyway, it is interesting how knowing (or not knowing) someone changes one's read. Tolerance. Understanding. Patience. Appreciation. Desire to hug, or maim. | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 79.187.206.46 |
Being severly biased as I have lived in Poland for eight years, I would like to stress that there are signs in English, not everywhere, but enough for such a small place as that in which I live. Nearly everybody, children included speak some semblance of English, not mention other languages. I have yet to encounter any Poles who feel uneasy at this change, in fact, they seem to take it in their stride, and they are more conventional in their attitudes towards their traditions than we British (English are). So I wouldn't let it worry you so much Tony. One reason there SHOULD be signs in other languages such as Polish, is that they contribute to the economy, they pay their taxes...oh, and they do the jobs that some, just some people, feel too worthy to lower themselves to do. There should be nothing to fear about progress. Which is what it is? Anyhow, saying that I'm leaving Poland in the future because of the dreadful social structure and administration. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
Well said, Frank. | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 79.187.206.46 |
Cheers, mate. This is not directed at Tony or anybody else: To be perfectly honest most Poles are over in Britain because they HAVE no choice. The economic situation is improving, but they've had to uproot and leave their beautiful country to find work, to support their families. They are not afraid of working, even with two of three degrees to their names waitering isn't beneath them...it's a necessity to their family's well-being and their future. You have to admire these people who love their country but make the decision to leave based on securing their family's happiness, future security, etc. How many Brits would do that if the situation was the same? Oh, and as Joel rightly pointed out, we English/Brits seem to take great pride in not speaking another language. As my friend said once about two Americans who boasted over their never having ironed an item of clothing in their entire life, 'nobody should take delight in not knowing how to do something'...well, within reason. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
>>>There should be nothing to fear about progress. Which is what it is? The idea that we somehow have a choice about migrant workers is pretty crazy. With an ageing population and fewer people being born in the West, there's going to be a massive shortfall in the workforce in the next 40 years. Migrant workers are needed to play a role in combating this problem. Either that or we all pay 60% in taxes and work till we're 90. No brainer really, isn't it? | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 79.187.206.46 |
This has happened before, though economically it was an entirely different matter; my uncle was among millions who came to Britain after the Second World War, at the behest of our Majesty and government, only to have the work taken away from him and then unceremoniously shoved into the English equivalent of a ghetto. Christ, hope that doesn't happen when things change...? | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
That's why we need to address the question about migrant integration immediately. | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 79.187.206.46 |
To make it clear: my uncle was from the West Indies, therefore considered a citizen of the 'EMPIRE'. He was prematurely retired to TOXETH. Is that what the current migrational groups have to look forward to? | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Depends on how willing BOTH sides are to adjust. | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 79.187.206.46 |
Too true, Gary. | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 79.187.206.46 |
>>> Depends on how willing BOTH sides are to adjust <<< Break it down, Gary, what kind of adjusting? | ||
| Adriana (Adriana) Username: Adriana Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.230.239.233 |
I wish I could speak another language fluently. I speak some Italian, but it's very choppy. And I guess understand a few words of french. But sometimes, in my dreams, I speak other languages, and when I wake up, I feel such a loss. I was recently in CUBA and got by on my Italian, but if I were to ever go again, I'd want to learn some Spanish first. You miss out on so much be being limited to one tongue... | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
And start RCMB war 21237374? I think it's to do with mutual respect, isn't it? Liberal secular laws in the West adhered to, and yet an appreciation and understanding of alternative mores. Proper mechanisms of immigration that work. Temporary/permanent visas with financial incentives built into work contributions that benefit both sides. Proper channels for remittance. Etc. There are lots of possibilities. But the system as it stands isn't working at all. The Poles are an interesting case study. Those people who believe encouraging mass migration would overload the country might be surprised to learn that since Poland joined the EU, only 1 in 175 Poles have migrated to the UK. There's a great deal of media-fuelled scaremongering going on. We need new, more fact-based discourses in circulation. And people especially need to be aware of long-term problems (such as the one I mentioned above) and how migration can help with that. We live in a globalised world, whether we like it or not. We have to make it work. | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 79.187.206.46 |
But A, you try and that's enough. Some of us don't. I speak horrible, fractured Polish, and after 8 years, but I try. Could try harder to be honest, much harder, but it's better than sitting back and saying 'look at how fucking stupid I am'...'I relish not being able to speak another language'...Christ, wish I'd listened in German and French classes. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.239.86 |
"With an ageing population and fewer people being born in the West, there's going to be a massive shortfall in the workforce in the next 40 years. Migrant workers are needed to play a role in combating this problem. Either that or we all pay 60% in taxes and work till we're 90. No brainer really, isn't it?" This specious argument isn't even used by migrant rights activists anymore, Gary. It isn't a solution to the problem because immigrants age too! You're just storing up a much worse pension problem for later (unless you want to forcibly repartiate them once they've paid their taxes). | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
I didn't say it was a solution to the problem. I said, "Migrant workers are needed to play a role in combating this problem." Obviously other mechanisms need to be in place. It's estimated that for migrant workers to solve the problem, there'd have to be over a million migrant workers a year for the next forty years. Ridiculous, of course. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Btw, I'm no fantasist about this, Proto. I know how complex it is. It needs a proper and thoroughgoing review. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
And no, I don't have a solution. Does anybody? (Yet.) | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 79.187.206.46 |
Gary - well said mate. In fact, the Poles are beginning to return to Poland. Protodroid - I don't think Gary's line of tact is specious, but I agree migrant rights activists might not use it so forciably as a focus point for migration. One of the more laughable claims by right-wing groups as to mass migration is that 'They have it better over here'. Trust me, Britain is no paradise compared to some of the countries these people come from. Of course a lot of the people are products of generational poverty the second they are born, and who wouldn't migrate to a country with a better mode of life in general. But to wrongly assume migrants are laughing their socks off in the backs of oxygen starved trucks as they illegally gain entry (nigh impossible given a lack of oxygen...I exaggerate to make the point),or as they pass through customs licking their lips at the prospect of bountiful Britain, is just one more misguided, mythical self-promotion by both the media and the right-wing. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Frank, is it true that in France, the "Polish plumber" is a symbol of demonic horror? | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Canada seem to be doing a good job of this, especially in Toronto. Over to you, A...! | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Having visited the city recently, I was surprised to learn recently that 49% of Torontonians were born outside Canada. There are people from 200 different countries living cheek-by-jowl. And as far as I'm aware, no real rancour. | ||
| Barbara Roden (Nebuly) Username: Nebuly Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 216.232.189.45 |
I grew up in Richmond, which was, in the 1960s and 1970s, a small rural suburb just south of Vancouver; lots of farms still, mostly middle-class and white as far as population went. But Vancouver itself had a number of large immigrant communities: the Italian section on Commercial Drive, a big East Indian community on Main between 42nd and 49th, a small Japanese community in Richmond itself (it would have been much larger if the government hadn't shipped most of the Japanese off to camps during WW II), and of course the second-largest community of Chinese outside China in downtown Vancouver. No real problems or antagonisms that I ever heard of. Now Vancouver itself has gone from a rather sleepy backwater to a major international centre, thanks in large part to the many Hong Kong Chinese who moved there prior to 1997; they were looking for somewhere safe, and many were attracted to Vancouver and area because of Canada's ties to Britain, because of the large Chinese community already there, and because it was on the west coast and thus closer to Hong Kong. Now Richmond, for example, has a population of more than 160,000, more than half of which are Chinese, many of them now second generation Canadians. There are a lot of malls and shops where everything is Chinese. And this is just an obvious example; there are now fairly significant communities from all manner of different countries. Yes, there are well-publicised examples of Chinese gang violence, but for the most part everyone gets along and just gets on with living. For every person (white, usually older) cursing the Chinese signs, there are 50 people who look forward to going for a great Chinese dinner in a restaurant where chicken chow mein doesn't feature on the menu. I guess it boils down to the fact that Canada is a young country made up of immigrants; everyone came here from somewhere else, so you don't get that engrained belief still fairly prevalent in Britain that this is 'our' country and we have to keep 'them' out (which conveniently overlooks the fact that if all of 'them' left there'd be precious few people cleaning hotel rooms and bussing tables in restaurants and picking fruit and washing dishes). And I'll mention, for what it's worth, that when I moved to England in 1992 and got work and people heard my accent and realised I wasn't British, I heard - more times than I can count - variations on the theme of 'Why on earth would someone from Canada want to move here?' | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Very interesting, Barbara. Thanks. One of the things I loved about Toronto was the sense of security I felt while walking the streets at night. Glad to hear it wasn't just my 'naive outsider's' perception. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
(Which isn't just a migrant issue, of course.) | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.241.44 |
"if all of 'them' left there'd be precious few people cleaning hotel rooms and bussing tables in restaurants and picking fruit and washing dishes." This is another argument from the left I find ill-thought-out and insulting. It's okay to let people in because we can exploit them? Really? Surely the humane thing to do is improve the social and financial standing of such work. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Migrants aren't just those who do the dirty jobs. This is often overlooked. Look at Silicon Valley and its innumerable inventions - so many are patented by skilled professional migrant workers. Innovation ensues from a combination of different perspectives, too. Of course then there's the 'brain drain' issue... As I say, this is a massive issue. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
>>>This is another argument from the left I find ill-thought-out and insulting. It's okay to let people in because we can exploit them? Really? Surely the humane thing to do is improve the social and financial standing of such work. Yes, but through remittance processes, even unskilled migrants can have an impact on their native economy, often amounting to far more than is offered via official aid (much of which invariably ends up in Swiss bank accounts). It is exploitation, but it's not quite that straightforward. You're right, of course, that the social and financial status of this work needs improving, with proper mechanisms for career development without ethnic penalties in the job market. So much to do... | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Barbara: a question. Do you feel that in Canada, the reason for the peaceful coexistence is because you've had to deal with issues of integration from the outset? Whereas in the UK, perhaps, we're having to do it as an 'online' process, as it were? | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.21.234.91 |
" . . . a small Japanese community in Richmond itself (it would have been much larger if the government hadn't shipped most of the Japanese off to camps during WW II)" First time I hear about this. To be sure, the Japanese immigrants' situation must have been awkward at best . . . | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 83.98.9.4 |
I've heard about that before. They locked up anyone of Japanese origin almost in USA and Canada. They had problems trying to cast Japanese characters in war films at the time and when they did find actors the right colour, they didn't speak Japanese. There's one film, I can't think what it's called sorry, where if you listen closely, all the Japanese characters are saying "I tie you shoe, you tie my shoe" because it sounded vaguely japanese. I know this is not as serious a post as some on this thread but it needs lightening up a bit. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
>>>but it needs lightening up a bit Yeah, when's Russ Abbot going to be on Question Time? | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 83.98.9.4 |
I've got a AAA pass to the labour party conference next week (I know, what idiot gives these things out?) - any comments anyone wants me to pass on if I meet any of the right honourables? | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Ask any of them to define 'waste of space' by simply using the power of mime. | ||
| Barbara Roden (Nebuly) Username: Nebuly Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 142.32.208.231 |
It's not so much, from what I've seen, letting migrant workers in so we can exploit them; it's letting migrant workers in because a lot of white people feel that picking fruit all day, or cleaning hotel rooms, or washing dishes in a restaurant, is 'beneath' them; disgusting, back-breaking, insulting, low-paying work that they wouldn't be caught dead doing. I can't think that Britain is all that different to Canada or the U.S. in that respect (and I did live in Britain for five years, so do have first-hand knowledge of the country, albeit a bit outdated now). If all the migrant workers were forced to leave Britain tomorrow, how many unemployed white people would be flocking to their jobs? Not many, I daresay. | ||
| Barbara Roden (Nebuly) Username: Nebuly Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 142.32.208.231 |
Quite possibly, Gary. Canada as a country only came into being in 1867; and to put that in perspective, I'm old enough to have known people who, in their turn, were old enough to have known people who were alive in 1867. So as I said, most of us here now came, in the not too distant past, from elsewhere, and I guess we all had to learn to live together. A case in point are the Chinese workers who came across in the 1870s and later to work on the railways, just a bit before a lot of Sikhs started coming over to make a better life for themselves. When you're just one group amongst many trying to find a foothold in a new country that's still in the process of being built, you don't spend time fighting amongst yourselves or trying to prove you're 'better' than someone else, because you're too busy trying to build a house and make a living for yourself and your family. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 83.98.9.4 |
She got a point. Too many idle twats in this country who'll happily take handouts off the state but think that doing a bit of manual work is demeaning!! Demeaning - this from the type of freak you see on Jeremy Kyle. Fuckers | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 83.98.9.4 |
That's in reply to the post posted at 5:40. We crossed in posting | ||
| Barbara Roden (Nebuly) Username: Nebuly Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 142.32.208.231 |
To be as fair as possible about an episode which can really only be described, in hindsight, as shameful, it was really only on the west coast of North America that this happened, the rationalisation being that it was on the west coast that a Japanese attack would occur, and hence it was seen as expedient to remove anyone who might be either preparing the ground for the attack, or would help the Japanese when it occurred. Richmond, where I lived, has within it the historic fishing village of Steveston, where a lot of Japanese families lived and worked. After Pearl Harbour the Japanese - even those who had been born here - were rounded up, allowed to take with them what they could carry, and sent to camps in the Interior of the province. When the war ended, many of them returned to their homes to find that the government had siezed their property - houses, land, possessions - and sold them cheap to (surprise) white people, who were presumably only too happy to take advantage of these things at bargain prices. The Japanese were NOT compensated in any way, at least until recently, when the government of Canada officially apologised to the Japanese community in Canada and offered recompense for this wrong. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Plus, Barbara, I imagine that when institutions and policies are under development, a variety of voices contribute to their shape and purpose, so that they're balanced and accommodating. Additionally, cultural mores have a chance of being woven together incrementally - there's no 'cold shock' of a clash of civilisations: one firmly embedded and rooted in the land, the other/s (perceived to be) invasive. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
One final question, Barbara (cos I'm interested): How is Islam perceived in Canada? | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.235.141 |
"If all the migrant workers were forced to leave Britain tomorrow, how many unemployed white people would be flocking to their jobs? Not many, I daresay." You're just restating the same point in different words. They wouldn't flock to the jobs because they're poorly paid and of low social standing. | ||
| Barbara Roden (Nebuly) Username: Nebuly Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 142.32.208.231 |
You're probably right. Although Canada was very firmly modelled on Britain in terms of law, government, attitude, etc., it was found that what works well in theory, or in another well-established country that's had several hundred years to tweak these things, doesn't work so well on the ground, so there was a fair bit of making it up as they went along. Take the Mounties, for example; they've always been a police force, but in the early days they were modelled on a variety of sources, with the leaders taking the best bits (or what they thought were the best bits) from other models and putting them together for something that would work and be appropriate on the western frontier of Canada. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.235.141 |
The "white people" phrase is at best unhelpful and at worst insulting. Why bring race into a debate on immigration? It's irrelevant (or should be). Christopher Hitchens defines racism as believing that we are divided by race. He points to his African ancestry revealed by analysis of his DNA as an example of how silly, how damaging the concept is. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Not only that, but the idea that any national identity is homogenous is ridiculous. You're right. The whole discourse of these issues needs resedimenting. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.13.32 |
The reason blatant "pyramid schemes" are banned by most governments, is not because they don't want poor sheep getting fleeced - it's because they don't want these same sheep to fully understand government-sanctioned fleecing. This "housing bubble" is the latest and greatest pyramid scheme to crush the masses. Today, it's been announced the financial institutions in the U.S. will be, in essence, "okay." But then, they've always been near the top of the pyramid.... | ||
| Barbara Roden (Nebuly) Username: Nebuly Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 142.32.208.231 |
Agreed. So as it's unlikely that these jobs are going to change to become better paying, and it's unlikely that white people are going to decide that cleaning hotel rooms is something they really want to do, regardless of the hourly rate, what's the solution? I'm merely pointing out that we have a lot of jobs which many people feel are beneath them; so we employ people to do them who don't feel this way. Many, if not most, of these people are immigrants, who realise they can make a better life for themselves and their families washing dishes in Bradford, or picking fruit in Kent, than they can back home, wherever home is. Those people who moan about 'them' taking 'our' jobs, and who complain that 'they' should be 'sent home', don't seem to appreciate that if this happened, the implications would be enormous, and not terribly attractive. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Care workers and nurses, too. Without 'Them', the NHS would be screwed. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.114.128 |
Um, I know this has gone off at a different point now but my original comments weren't about immigration as such as rather some psychic problem of mine, an unease at difference. It's feeble but I have allsorts of hangups and was just mentioning one of them. The rest, believe me, are even stupider. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
>>>Many, if not most, of these people are immigrants, who realise they can make a better life for themselves and their families washing dishes And, as I was saying above, transform the lives of the families they leave back home via remittances. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Ah, but then of course people complain that they "send all their money back home" instead of returning it to the economy. Basically, migrant workers can't win: if they work, they're taking all the jobs; if they go on benefits, they're scrounging. Etc. | ||
| Barbara Roden (Nebuly) Username: Nebuly Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 216.232.189.45 |
According to a recent study, Islamophobia is on the rise in Canada, but is still considerably lower than in many European countries. Interestingly, Quebec skews higher than the rest of the country on this score, possibly because outside influences of any kind are more feared in Quebec than in the rest of Canada. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
>>I also feel like I'm in a parallel universe. (It mostly has to do with you, Albie. Do you remember when... oh no, never mind.) What, when I shifted the forum to a parallel universe? Is that what you meant? | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
>>>It isn't a solution to the problem because immigrants age too! You're just storing up a much worse pension problem for later (unless you want to forcibly repartiate them once they've paid their taxes). One mechanism that's at least worth considering is to offer temporary visas to migrant workers and then to store up a proportion of their wage contributions as a 'nest egg' to encourage them to return to their native country. That way, they have funds to do whatever they wish to do next. This way, both parties benefit. I'm not saying that's an uncomplicated proposal, but it's certainly one option. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 83.98.9.4 |
http://www.dilbert.com/strips/comic/2008-01-26/ | ||
| Adriana (Adriana) Username: Adriana Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.230.239.233 |
Yes, Albie. That's exactly what I meant. I didn't think you'd want me to draw attention to it though... Shucks. | ||
| Adriana (Adriana) Username: Adriana Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.230.239.233 |
"Do you feel that in Canada, the reason for the peaceful coexistence is because you've had to deal with issues of integration from the outset?" I'd like to know how the NATIVE (Aboriginal/ First Nation) people of Canada would answer that question... How is it that we seem to have TOTALLY forgotten that this was their land first? And they had no choice in the matter when we all came and built our homes here. Took their children. Banned their language. And beat them with the good intention of excorcising the savage in them. Here in Canada (or at least Ontario), we are the proud citizens of society with an educational system that celebrates/teaches Black History MONTH, and yet we have not even one day to recognize the Natives. Sure some of their "history" is taught in elementary school, but it's alarming how deficient the information is. Anyway. Whatever. It's only the foundation of our Nation. | ||
| Adriana (Adriana) Username: Adriana Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.230.239.233 |
But yes, sure GF, aside from all that, I think there's great truth to what you're suggesting. And I for one am really happy to be living in such a multicultural city. In the case of a place like Toronto - I think multiculturalism is a huge part of our identity, rather then detracting from any possible one. Having said that, it's certainly not like this across the country though. Especially not in the smaller towns. | ||
| Barbara Roden (Nebuly) Username: Nebuly Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 216.232.189.45 |
Uh, credit where it's due: that was in a different time with a different mindset. Reparations and apologies have been, and continue to be, made; unlike other countries, whose behaviour was even more reprehensible.
We have First Nations Day here in B.C., and there is a VERY extensive First Nations curriculum in our schools; this year a First Nations English 12 course has been introduced in our school district, the Statimc (pronounced Shtat-lee-um) language is taught in high schools in our area, and First Nations artists, singers, musicians, actors, and Elders are frequent visitors to, and presenters at, our schools. We have a District Principal, Aboriginal Education whose job it is to visit the area schools, coordinate with the First Nations Support Workers at each school, liaise with the First Nations Education Council member for each of the 19 (yes, 19) bands residing within our District, and ensure that a) Aboriginal kids don't fall behind, b) Aboriginal kids get an education that's meaningful to them (i.e. respectful of their culture and history), and c) ensure that all the students are exposed to First Nations culture and traditions. | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 79.187.206.46 |
Gary (F) - with regards to the Polish plumber abroad in France, unfortunately the answer to your questions is 'yes'. | ||
| Adriana (Adriana) Username: Adriana Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.230.239.233 |
That's great to hear, Barbara. How long have you been celebrating First Nations Day in B.C.? Amazing to me that Ontario hasn't taken the example... | ||
| Barbara Roden (Nebuly) Username: Nebuly Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 142.32.208.231 |
I'm not sure how long First Nations Day has been around. It's not an official stat, just a day marked throughout the province. | ||
| Adriana (Adriana) Username: Adriana Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.230.239.233 |
Ah. |